The truth about DEI and the White Supremacy in ALL of us.

Nijiama Smalls has a conversation with Shari Dunn, author of the best-selling book Qualified, to discuss DEI, how competency checking works against Black women in corporate America, how we All have to check the white supremacist ideals that have been poured into us, and her new book. 

Transcript

Nijiama Smalls 0:05

Hello there. Thank you all for joining

Shari Dunn 0:08

I have a question. I know we've got a few minutes left. We, we, we, we've got a lot of questions. So, um, I'm going to ask you to do your best. Um, we have a question from our audience, and we're going to ask you to please raise your right hand and tell us what you would like to say to the audience.

Nijiama Smalls 0:24

and necessary

Shari Dunn 0:26

uh, I'm trying to figure out how we're going to get this It's a long road, but it's a long time. I'll try to figure out that. And the way what I'm doing with this is I'm using the software that my team uses

Nijiama Smalls 0:42

read her bio, but she is just a powerhouse. As I always say, I am not smart.

Shari Dunn 0:46

With.

Nijiama Smalls 0:47

is the people that Surround me that are smart and they make me look good. And Sherry is just one of those people. Her name is Sherry Dunn. She is a journalist, an attorney, a news anchor, a professor, an executive consultant. She is a DEI leader, and she has just. awesome book qualify. So I'm so delighted to introduce you to the wonderful Sherry Dunn. Sherry, thank you for joining us today.

Shari Dunn 1:22

Thank you for having me. It's really, you know, it's, I'm very excited to talk to you in your audience because, uh, black women in particular were the, the impetus, the, the reason that I wrote this book. So yeah,

Nijiama Smalls 1:36

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. So we're just going to dive right into it. Um, so Sherry, tell us what, start off talking about DEI because DEI is You know, that is, that is the

Shari Dunn 1:50

in the news.

Nijiama Smalls 1:50

is the acronym for 2025. Every time you, uh, NBC or Google or CNN or MSNBC shoot me alert, DEI is in it. Tell everybody what DEI is.

Shari Dunn 2:05

Well, I will use the plain language. Diversity is natural. It's in our world. It's in our bodies. It's diversity. It's it's the natural, uh, the natural course of things. Without diversity, we'd all be dead. I mean, like, seriously, like, if you didn't have diverse genetic profile, Um, equity, equitable, um, an equitable world, meaning going beyond just equality, but understanding that some people have advantages, some have disadvantages. And we even have the concept of equity in our Constitution and in the law. The reason we have a criminal justice system that provides attorneys for people is because it would be inequitable not to do so. Right. And inclusion is just simply just what it says being inclusive of people. We have folks who have disabilities. You know, we now through the Americans with Disability Act have the curb cut out. You can get your wheelchair and things in there. We have bigger stalls. Um, we think about a designing elements for tall, short people. That's inclusion. So the hysteria of diversity, equity, inclusion is something totally different. The hysteria of diversity, equity, inclusion. Is really related to people who are uncomfortable with and do not want to see the advancement of black and other people of color, as well as women, and this critique of any advancement and inclusion of us has been going on since we were free from enslavement. So the critique of what people are talking about, and then there's just the practical workday D. E. I. Diversity. Equity. Inclusion is not the law. It doesn't mandate hiring. None of those things. It is a way that businesses and corporations tried to think only really explicitly for the last 4 years. About the impact specifically on anti black bias in the workplace and how that had been causing them not to recruit and hire some talented, uh, folks and making the workplace tolerable for people of color. So when you talk about DEI, there's a lot to unpack, but it is, it's plain language definition. It is the hysteria that people who are against, uh, an inclusive workforce and inclusive society. And then it's the practical day to day work that, that people do in their workplaces.

Nijiama Smalls 4:27

Absolutely great. You know, it's so much you said there that even You know, you introduced me to some new pieces about DEI, especially the part about some of it is already embedded in our systems already. Like, you know, the court system, the legal system, and so on, right? Um, you don't think of it like that, but you know, we're, we're already, it's already a part of our culture. Talk to me about, and you kind of touched on it a little bit, the misconceptions about surrounding DEI right now, because I see them all over social media. And I, and I

Shari Dunn 5:03

Right, right.

Nijiama Smalls 5:03

don't know what this is and what it isn't.

Shari Dunn 5:07

Yeah. It's, it's not even misinformation. It's intentional disinformation. There are right wing think tanks like the Claremont Institute based in California that have been working for years to undermine any attempts at an inclusive workplace or society. I mean, they, they, they were, they did the same thing with affirmative action. Anything that is designed to, uh, open the doors of opportunity for black people specifically. Is then re characterized as lack, unqualified, uh, special treatment, this type of language, this language comes from these think tanks and they have pushed into mainstream society and they've redefined the terms without any real pushback. For instance, affirmative action does not and has not included quotas. This is a very common mistake. Oh, just affirmative action. How are they just, there's no such thing that that's a lie, but it's a lie that has been repeated so much that I think even some black people believe it. Um, and as I said, this goes all the way back to when black people were freed. The Freedmen's Bureau came about at the end of slavery to help black people who were barely out of chains, no homes, no land, no nothing get established in this new American society. And immediately, immediately, you can read about it in the book. There is pushback saying it's reverse discrimination to white people. I mean, you know, in the book, I talk about a quote they talk about recently in freed slaves had rights, but the only right they had was to starve because they, they had no shelter, no food, no nothing. I mean, people don't really think about that. So the Freedmen's Bureau was an. equitable attempt to get the newly freed folks on their feet. And there was a vicious pushback. And literally you could take some of the things written about the Freedmen Bureau and just plop them right into DEI. It's the same language. It's the same thing. So that tells you that the, the pushback and the anger about DEI isn't about DEI practice. It's about the goals of a racially inclusive. Workplace and society that acknowledges harm. That is not something that America likes to do. And so that is really a lot. Now I do want to separate this out because there are bad diversity, equity, inclusion consultants and practitioners. There are people who've done bad work. Sure. But let me tell you something. There are bad management consultants who've done terrible work specifically as it relates to black people in the workplace. And nobody's trying to outlaw what they do. There are terrible consultants, the ones who are leadership consultants who supposedly help corporations decide who could be a CEO on a leadership track. They do a terrible job assessing and understanding Black and other people of color. Nobody, you know, says their, their work should be outlawed. So I'm not defending a specific practice. I'm saying it isn't about the practice because the practice of DEI is an issue. Because if that was the case, why does the critique of the Freedmen's Bureau after slavery? And the critique of civil rights legislation and the critique of affirmative action and the critique of D. Why do they all use the same language and sound like they were written at the same time? So that's a clue that it's not about DEI.

Nijiama Smalls 8:34

Exactly, exactly. And you know, when I, when I'm, when I'm scrolling through socials, I see people saying, You know, D. E. I. They're hiring all these unqualified people. And then you saw, um, when planes go down or whatever, and lives are lost. First thing we start talking about is D. E. I. Right. And so for me, I think people need to do the research. Like, do you truly understand what DEI is saying, what DEI is, and what it looks like in practice before you start critiquing? I mean, I think, you know, even at the executive level, he doesn't even understand what DEI is. And so here

Shari Dunn 9:23

Well, he, he, he understands that he is in favor of a white supremacist society. He understands that.

Nijiama Smalls 9:32

Right.

Shari Dunn 9:32

so it doesn't matter to him what DEI means. The, the end of reconstruction in the United States. The period just before Jim Crow starts is very analogous to today. So a lot of people don't know that During reconstruction there was a black US Senator, there were tons of Black Congress people. South Carolina had a majority black state legislature. A lot of people don't know. There was this period between re, during reconstruction and before Jim Crow started, black people worked in jobs, they lived in interracial communities. Very similar to how we live today in some sense. And at that time when Jim Crow started, they had the same thing. They were unqualified. They ran them out of Congress physically with threats of violence or simply fired them from their jobs. Black people were, um, removed from their land, kicked out of ownership of their stores and property. So This has nothing to do with the E. I. That's the problem. It has everything to do with a restoration of white supremacy and fundamental assumptions that blackness itself is what is unqualified. It's not. It's not so much that people think the policy is unqualified as much as they just think blackness is unqualified because again, at the end of reconstruction, the same thing they blame. It was black people. Having black people in the legislature was the reason America was doing that. So they had to get rid. It sounds just like yeah. Today. Right. And it wasn't the E I. So I think people get lost when they chase. This ball and don't focus on the fact that at its core, this is about dismantling an inclusive society and reinstating a society that looks, uh, I think like, uh, the current person in the white house said he would like to go back to 1789. I mean, he said that at a rally 1789 black people were half a century. A little more than half a century away from freedom. So you know, if people want to really know what's behind the anti DEI push, they, I called it like Scooby Doo, pull the character's mask off, and it's just anti Black racism. And it's, um, you know, not wanting an inclusive society.

Nijiama Smalls 11:53

Exactly, exactly. It's the same rhetoric from past, from the Jim Crow era, that's just been repackaged rebranded, but they're

Shari Dunn 12:03

Yeah. Right.

Nijiama Smalls 12:04

us. But, once again, if we don't do the deep dive in history, and really understand it, we don't know this. We don't know that we are supporting White supremacy when we are against these D, uh, policies such as DEI and so on, because, and that's the reason why they don't want correct history taught in our schools

Shari Dunn 12:26

Right.

Nijiama Smalls 12:27

and us to have books like the 1619 project and qualified and so on and so on. So forth, because it opens your mind to a completely different perspective that many in this country are just not ready to accept and admit. And I love that you call it white supremacy because we need to start calling it out as it is right. It's anti black.

Shari Dunn 12:52

Anti black bias. And the thing of it is just because you can see the country clearly doesn't mean you hate it. I mean, there's, this is a real confusion. I think with people, they feel like any critique, uh, of the United States means you don't like it. And in fact, I would say that people who critique the country. In some sense, love it because if you didn't care, you wouldn't keep trying to figure out how to make it better. Right? So, yeah, I think you're right. It's this, this and it's education where we're, where most of us, and this is black and white people, most of us know nothing about reconstruction, very little, most of us do not know that the moment we are living in right now is almost a mirror image. Of the end of reconstruction, because where, where were we going to learn that they, if they touched on in school, they just said something real quick about carpet baggers, maybe. And then they went on to water fountains and Jim Crow, but knowing that piece will really have helped us maybe not get here. I don't know.

Nijiama Smalls 13:56

I completely agree. And what you're talking about this, you know, uh, in terms of not being able to accept the criticism and, and, and they seeing the criticism and anti American, you know, that's fragility, right? It's, you can't, you can't handle that. It's just, you know, they call it any critique or anything you talk about race or anything. It's divisive. That's because it's. It's hitting you at the ego, right? Um, it's hitting you where it hurts. It's making you sit with some emotions and feelings that you never had to sit with before and be able to stand up and say, you know, America hasn't always done right by People, um, black Americans, indigenous people and so on and so forth, right? And it may even make you check your own biases and your own reactions and prejudices and so on. And that's hard for people, right? And so not

Shari Dunn 14:56

scary.

Nijiama Smalls 14:57

that is, is, is their way of, you know, us forcing us to continue to stroke egos and so on and so forth. Um, and so that's why we don't, we don't. So there's progression. We get, we get to these points like where we are right now in history, where it seems like we're repeating ourselves because we're not taking

Shari Dunn 15:17

Yes.

Nijiama Smalls 15:18

the deep dives. And like you said, if you really love this country, right, it's like, if you have a child, right, you love that child, you give them the good and the

Shari Dunn 15:24

There you go.

Nijiama Smalls 15:27

That's a part of love. That's a part of maturing and growing them up. Same as with our country, we should say, never want to repeat history. We should not even be talking about the golden years. That's done. It's over. We need to look forward, right? Um, because not everyone progressed during the quote unquote golden years of whatever, whatever timeframe he's referring to.

Shari Dunn 15:50

No, that, I love that analogy and I talk about that, uh, also that, uh, would you raise up your child and never give your child critique? Would you let a loved one do something so harmful and never say anything like that's not love. That's weird. Right. But that's the way some people think you love a country is to never critique it. And that is, you know, just simply not true.

Nijiama Smalls 16:16

true at all. Not true. Like you said, we can love this country. Y'all hear that? You can love this country and you can acknowledge its wrongs and how it's wronged people. And you can make a, and you can make a proclamation that we're never going back there again. Yet, here we are. Sherry, talk to us about competency checking. What is that?

Shari Dunn 16:37

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, in my own work life, and I'm sure in yours and some of the folks listening, um, and in my consulting career, I was coming across people of color describing the exact same things happening to them. So whether they were in the arts, whether they were in a corporation, whether they were in a government. They were having similar language used about and against them. Things such as they were too aggressive or they were too, um, intimidating or, um, they were too full of themselves or, I mean, and, and, and I'm thinking like, how is someone on the East coast, the West coast and down South all have the same evaluation? Like that's weird, you know, And it could be a PhD person, person who's working at a university. It could be, it could be anybody. And so I thought to myself, this is something that needs to specifically be identified because, you know, if we say unconscious bias or racism, well, those are big topics and like, okay, but what is that exactly? And even when we say confirmation bias, it's like, okay, but what does that mean? So. In the book, I give the example. It's just like when you talk about housing discrimination, you, you have to know the specifics to have the specific cure. So if you say housing discrimination, okay, but what mortgage loan discrimination, okay, now we're going to have that solution. Or if you talk about appraisal discrimination, right? So you got to break it down. So competency checking is my attempt to do that. And, um, I like to just look in the book and give the proper definition so that people know what I mean when I say it. And, and the crazy part is this one definition that usually when I say it, the person listening, if they're black. They know the second part. So we'll see if you do this. Um, there are three primary ways competency checking shows up. The first is the assumption of black intellectual inferiority or lack of qualification. So people just assume and that manifests as low expectations, marginalization and extreme micromanagement, right? People just checking on you all the time. If someone assumes consciously or unconsciously, Okay. That all black people are intellectually inferior. They're going to question that person and their qualifications more closely during the interview. And once hired, they pay more attention to your work looking for any mistakes. The second method of competency checking is the expression. And this is where people have surprise or unease with black intelligence. They're like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe you know that. Which can trigger, um, requests or demands to confirm how, how did you learn that, uh, whether it's rote memorization or actual knowledge. And this can manifest as dismissal, quizzing, argument, tokenization. If a black person knows something that their white co worker doesn't know, the co worker's reaction isn't, I didn't know that, but more often it is, do you know what the reaction is?

Nijiama Smalls 19:47

Uh,

Shari Dunn 19:48

not, I didn't know that, but more often it is.

Nijiama Smalls 19:51

did you know that?

Shari Dunn 19:53

Yes. Look, how do I know you know that first? Let me just stop for a second and tell you that I have said this in multiple rooms now. And the first time I read that sentence before I could get the words out of my mouth, the room, it was a room for the black woman. They yelled it. And I was like, Oh my gosh, see, that's my point. This is happening to black people all over the place. And they're literally getting the same language. So the final and third method of competency checking is activation, specifically the feeling of fear when confronted with a black person who holds any authority, especially someone in a leadership position. This can manifest as a request for identification. Undefined feelings of unfairness, anger, unease, and what I describe as an autoimmune level rejection of black leadership. So those are the three elements of competency checking assumption, expression and activation. And basically what happens to black people in the workplace and to some extent. White women and other people of color is this constant request to confirm because the assumption is you don't know the assumption is you're not intelligent. The assumption and whether it's spoken or unspoken. And so consequently, people put up all these barriers for you to prove what you know. And I say in the book, you know, the pipeline isn't broken or empty. It's blocked. It's blocked with competency checking and with filters that people, black folks particularly have to try to wiggle through to get through. And then you say, Oh, there's no one in the pipeline, which is totally untrue.

Nijiama Smalls 21:32

Absolutely, wow. So much to unpack there, you know, um, I know anyone who is listening can relate to this. I, you know, as you're talking so many different examples in my own personal experience. Popped up in my head. You know, I can recall. I used to be on a marketing team and we would go travel marketing this program. And I

Shari Dunn 22:00

It's like, it's a

Nijiama Smalls 22:04

and I was in my early 20s then fresh out of college. And I remember this woman who was in the who was in the audience emailed me. She was a white woman. She was like, I was just so impressed with you and you speak so clearly and so on. And I was like, know, in my young mind, I'm trying to wrap my mind around what saying. I'm like, and I remember thinking if I was a white woman, would she have sent me the same email? Like, this was like, we were conversating back and forth about, you know, her. Coming on to the program and so on her company. And she kept saying that I've always just been so impressed with you. Like, huh?

Shari Dunn 22:46

compliment,

Nijiama Smalls 22:46

yeah,

Shari Dunn 22:48

think the thing is, it is, here's the thing you're there as a trainer.

Nijiama Smalls 22:51

exactly.

Shari Dunn 22:52

clearly, you know how to try and then you have graduated from college. So, so then the question does become. What is she filtering her, filtering this experience through? Cause there's some sort of filter and I call it a racial distortion filter is a filter of racial distortion that, you know, is, is there because, and, and I've had white people say to me, well, what if she meant that she was, she was a better public speaker. Okay. We'll say that. Because if a person said that, then we're not having a conversation about this, right? Because you would have been like, Oh, let me tell you how I do it. But it isn't. It's a more of a paternalistic thing. Like, Oh, I didn't. I mean, this is how it sounds to me. I don't know how it sounds to other people, but it sounds to me like someone says, Oh, I didn't know a dog could talk. Look at that talking dog.

Nijiama Smalls 23:40

No, exactly. That's what it is. It is like when I stood up at the podium, she didn't expect what came out of my mouth came out of my mouth, right? And so it's like one of those think this is a compliment, but it's really not, right? And

Shari Dunn 23:54

It's very much insult.

Nijiama Smalls 23:55

yeah, and I think it's, it's, it's, you know, in the Black community, we have so much pressure that I don't think others understand that we have to deal with. Some of the things you just addressed, you know, when we walk into white corporate spaces. You know, we have to go in there knowing at that moment we have to prove ourselves. Right. And it's like, you know,

Shari Dunn 24:17

And you have to identify who are we?

Nijiama Smalls 24:19

are

Shari Dunn 24:19

are we here? Why are we here?

Nijiama Smalls 24:21

Yes, exactly. And you know, you have to do all the things to let people know a that you earn a seat at the table and B that you can maintain that seat at the table because you never know what folks come into the room with in terms of their own biases and prejudice that they have never checked. And especially, you know, people will say have this blanket term. So and so wasn't a good fit. You know, they created that term, right? We didn't create that term. They created that term, but what does that really mean? Right? Who are they talking about? It feels like it's this blanket term that they can use at whatever And whatever, whenever they can, when it's someone that doesn't fit what they have in their mind, and they can cast them out and just

Shari Dunn 25:12

And.

Nijiama Smalls 25:12

you know, they weren't, they just weren't a good fit. And so we have to

Shari Dunn 25:17

Yeah. And

Nijiama Smalls 25:18

of that term. When someone's phrasing when they say that, and challenge them and say, well, what is a good fit, what, what, what, how am I not a good

Shari Dunn 25:26

what, what do you mean?

Nijiama Smalls 25:28

Mm

Shari Dunn 25:28

You know, one of the things I describe is that let's say a black woman comes into an interview and they're talking about themselves in a good way. You know, you will often hear people say, Oh, well she seemed full of herself or she's so, you know, this or that. And then the thing to say is, well, wait a minute, isn't an interview the time a person is supposed to talk? about themselves. And are we punishing other people for talking about themselves? You know what I mean? So it's just so ingrained, you know, into how it's almost like, uh, when I mentioned it and talked to white people about it, it's almost like they like wake up. Like, I think it's almost like people are in a bit of a trance when they interact with us, which is crazy. But, you know, you know, you can have a black person and this is why I think it happens. You can have a black person explain something in a room and people act like they didn't hear it. And then a white person will say the exact same thing. And then people hear it. Now, white women talk about this happening to them. But the irony is they also do it to black people. They also, so It's like people almost shut off listening and then you try to say, well, wait a minute. Well, you don't need to take credit for everything. Well, wait a minute. I'm, I'm not getting credit for anything. I'm not trying to take credit for everything. I'm just trying to take credit for what I said,

Nijiama Smalls 26:46

Right.

Shari Dunn 26:47

know? So

Nijiama Smalls 26:49

And there's always in our head, right? We're always in our head because we have to be, am I coming across as too aggressive? And how do I? sirte myself in this way, that it doesn't offend anyone, right? There have been so many times in my experiences that I have felt that I have dimmed my light or toned myself down to make sure that I was making everybody else comfortable around me, right? I didn't say, you know, you let the microaggression slip by you. if someone says something crazy about your hair. Oh. How did you get your hair like that or whatever? You know, and you just ignore it. Are you did this? You know, and in your mind, you're thinking, why do I have to sit here and have this conversation? Well, this, you know, I remember one day I told one girl, I said, she asked me about my hair. I said, listen, this is not getting ready to be asked a black girl about her hair day. We're not doing this, right? But it's it's, you know, we have to be mindful because you can cross that line and that line can truly mean the end of you. and,

Shari Dunn 27:57

your career, that's right. That's right. It's. It's really that, yes, you hit upon the nail in the head, you know, because people are trying to maintain their, their livelihood, their life. And you know, as we move into an even more hostile work environment under the current administration, I think it's going to get harder, you know, and, um, you know, telling people, you know, YouTube is a great resource to learn about black hair.

Nijiama Smalls 28:22

That's

Shari Dunn 28:23

You just go to Google, YouTube

Nijiama Smalls 28:25

Google, you don't

Shari Dunn 28:25

Google, you don't have to.

Nijiama Smalls 28:27

Google

Shari Dunn 28:28

just ask Google or go to YouTube and you know, you can watch videos. You can totally go down the rabbit hole, learn everything you need to know, you know? Um, but I think the thing that strikes me the most is how many, how the fact that you can ask almost every black person in the United States and they can repeat similar language said to them. And I think that was the thing that really got me and what, and, and I was saying that black women are the, I say in the book that black women are the canaries in the workplace coal mine, because, you know, they used to send a canary down to see if the coal mine was poisoned. If the canary died, nobody could go down there. Black women are being shed out of the workplace at an alarming rate. And that was prior to. This administration taking office. So I'm terrified as to what is going to be happening in the next few months. And this is because. Uh, black women show up with education, with experience, with everything. And they are just, you know, and part of it is it almost doesn't matter what you do, like, even if you try to, you know, twist yourself into a pretzel, so people feel comfortable. I tell people, you know, I could say good morning and people hear, like, I didn't even say that. Like I, like they're hearing an interaction with me. That's not happening. So it's kind of tough. And I think. The, the, the roles and responsibilities really need to be on companies and, and, uh, dominant culture, which is white people to really understand the ways in which they are blocking the natural flow of talent that would see, see, I always tell people, if you assume that diversity and inclusion or affirmative action or civil rights or the Freedmen's Bureau or any of that exists. it because black people are unqualified and need special help. Then you misunderstand the problem because if you misunderstand the illness, you can identify the, um, you can identify the symptoms as opposed to the illness. So in other words, if the symptom is a fever, well, I would say, Oh, that's because she's, you know, a witch. I don't know. You just make something up. But if you don't say no, the illness is the flu. Right? So they, if you misidentify the illness, you can come up with any reason. The illness is not that black people are inherently unqualified. The illness is that white supremacy has consistently blocked advancement and access for qualified and unqualified black people. Like black people got a right to be good and bad at their job, just like white people. So it, White supremacy has blocked the natural flow. So these things exist to remove what are in fact artificial blockages. And so black women tend to identify these issues. They tend to come with the experience and they just aren't getting, they're having a bad time. They're having a really difficult time. Especially in corporate spaces and the rate at which they're being shed out of those spaces is alarming. And so black women were the reason I wrote this book, you know, hands down because I was like, what in the world? And then when you look at the data from other countries, like the UK, you see similar data

Nijiama Smalls 31:54

hmm.

Shari Dunn 31:54

and you're like, okay, so this has been a worldwide problem. You know?

Nijiama Smalls 31:58

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Tell us about a few, give us a few example of what biases and hiring systems look like.

Shari Dunn 32:08

Yeah. So one of the, the, the blockages I talk about in the pipeline is this prestige bias for universities. So it, a decade ago, the United States was graduating more black and Hispanic students in computer science degrees than showed up In employment, specifically in kind of prestige employment. So Google, Meta, Meta, et cetera. So the, so the typical statement is, Oh, there's not a pipeline of black computer science engineers. Well, the percentage who are graduating was not showing up represented. So why is that? Mainly because the, many of those. Uh, businesses tended to want to hire people who had either went to or dropped out of because, because we know these stories of, of, of white people who dropped out of famously Harvard, uh, the more elite institutions. Well, those institutions have fewer, fewer black people. And I just saw some data post affirmative action. There's almost few to none, uh, at Harvard. And I think it's Harvard law. So, I mean, it's, it's. We are in a 10 alarm fire right at the moment regarding the future of our livelihoods that I don't think people fully grasp, but, um, So it's the prestige bias that blocks these engineers and as, like I said, it was a study a decade ago, and one of the, the teachers, I think, I don't know if he was at the University of Houston or one of the schools, he said, my students are capable. They have great grades. They are, they are not second rate. They are doing internships, but that prestige bias blocks it. Another block in the workplace that I don't think many of us really think about is referral based hiring. Now referral based hiring, on the face of it, seems harmless. You just refer people you know. But in fact, referral based hiring is a race based hiring system that almost exclusively favors white people and a 30 to 40 percent of all hiring is done through referral based hiring. What we know about referral based hiring is more informal. People are more likely to give you a break and it's not that white people aren't referring black people because they're being this, everything relates to something, right? So because of housing discrimination patterns, because of education, segregation, we don't tend to live near each other or know each other as friends. And so most white people's friend group, I think is like 90 percent white. So In fact, referral based hiring becomes a de facto white hiring system that allows white people a more less formal way into employment in fairly large numbers. Now, people say, well, black people, they could just refer people. Data tells us it don't work like that. So number one, there aren't enough black people in many of those corporations to do that. Number two, when black people do refer people. Their referrals don't end up treated the same. Racism comes up again. So what we find is that referrals from black people tend to either not get interviews or not get as, get as far as referral from white people in the same system. So it's, it's not that simple. It's not as simple as having black people just refer black because it doesn't, they don't get the same result. So one thing I suggest is limiting. Referral based hiring, because this means then that black and other people of color have to come in the front door of a job, which is way more formal. A lot more scrutiny, way more competition. So, so they're going through a sieve that is smaller and narrower. So by the time it gets there, you say, Oh, the pipeline's empty. No, honey, you got to, you've removed whole sections of this pipeline for this side. And that's just flowing through it. But this side is a trickle because you narrow it, narrow it, narrow it until it becomes a trickle. Right. So I think, you know, those are just two examples that, that Precise Buy is in the way. Referral based hiring impacts, uh, the workplace.

Nijiama Smalls 36:18

I have personally seen referral based hiring. I used to be in talent acquisition years ago, and I worked for one of the very large, um, IT company. And we were hiring for a position and the hiring manager was a white male and we had all, we had a line of, a slew of candidates that we presented to him. One in particular who was awesome, well qualified, was a black woman. He chose, however, to hire his neighbor had been a stay at home mom, no disrespect to the stay at home moms, but she had been a

Shari Dunn 36:57

Yeah. No, it's not that people

Nijiama Smalls 37:01

up against this other woman, did not even match. And he hired, not only hired this woman, but he put her in at the top of the salary bracket. And, and it was myself and a couple of other white women who saw this, and we all were like dropping, like, really? We were all confused, but it was right in our face. But it was one of those things where if I

Shari Dunn 37:26

don't

Nijiama Smalls 37:27

What's going to happen to me if I say something

Shari Dunn 37:30

know. Right. Right.

Nijiama Smalls 37:32

just let it go,

Shari Dunn 37:33

I mean, when you think when you think about the fact that referral hiring accounts for 30 to 40 percent of all hiring, you can see how this happens. And this is the false narrative that affirmative action or D. I. or any of that is getting people with lack of qualifications and point of fact. To your story, the black person comes to the scenario with more qualification, more education, more skill, and still doesn't get hired. And Bureau of Labor Statistics data proves that. So now the book, as you will know, has 45 pages of citations, because I knew if I said things I had, people had checked. However, some of my Federal citations could be gone because the administration has deleted or made inaccessible race based data in the federal government. So some of the data in my book may not either exist or be accessible because they have removed it. But the Bureau of Labor Statistic Data from 2019, as analyzed by the Economic Policy Institute, proved that black people tend to be. Underemployed. What that means is they tend to be in positions that are not commensurate with their level of education or experience, but a white person with a high school or undergraduate degree tends to be employed in positions that would normally, you know, you're looking for undergraduate or graduate degree. So you have white people, actually, with their Are the ones who are in jobs without commensurate qualifications, experience or skill and black people in jobs with the qualification skills, not in their level. So race remains a determinant factor is basically what the report shows. So it's not just black people's imagination.

Nijiama Smalls 39:19

well, isn't that interesting? see, these are the conversations that people aren't having because they're thinking races, you know, talking about race and having these deep dive conversations are harmful, but really they're not they're eye opening and they're helping us to check our own perspectives. Right. And so this is why this is so powerful. Um, and so. D. I. Has been is, you know, under attack. What do we do? Is there anything we can do, Sherry? I mean, you know, understand elections matter and so on. But what can what can we do? Um, you know, those of us who are who are working in professional settings, um, even in our community. What do we do now?

Shari Dunn 40:11

Yeah. I mean, first of all, I think to the point of your podcast, I think it's healing to have these conversations. I think, I know that I had an early reader, a young woman in, uh, the UK and she, when I just had the manuscript and she sent me back an email at the time, she said, this made me mad, sad, angry, but most of all, it made me realize I wasn't going crazy. And I think, yeah. For a lot of black folks who are in isolation in places, even though we know about races, it's still, like you said, it's still a shock. It's still confusing. And I think part of this is an affirmation that you are not only not going crazy, but that this is happening to all of us almost. And these are the ways. So I think that helps in a bit. It helps in a way, take some of that loneliness off. And then I think we need to interrogate the ways that we competency check each other as black and other people of color. I think we need to look at the ways white supremacy shows up in us in spaces and find ways to help each other. We cannot afford to continue to look at ourselves as the only in the space or, you know, crabs in a barrel kind of mentality with each other. We are going to need to help each other now more than ever. Ever. Um, and that doesn't mean that we put up with bad behavior from each other, but it means, you know, if, if there's a way we can help each other, we need to break down the walls to try to do that. I think those who work in HR talent acquisition or those who are even in senior executive levels need to ask questions. You know, I always say, ask more questions. Ask more questions and that could be really helpful. So maybe if you're part of a hiring team, you could say, you know, I noticed that, you know, this month we did, um, 20 percent referral based hiring. Um, but we, we are, our traditional routes are. You know, we've only done 10%. And that seems to be where we get most of our diversity. I wonder if there's a way we can expand that. Right. So you're, you're asking questions. You're, you're, you know, like to what you're saying, you're not accusing anyone. You're saying this is what I noticed. You know, I read this book, Qualified and I, I noticed this. Um, and during interviews, if people notice conversation, like, Oh, she seems full of herself or that, you know, you know, this interesting, that's an interesting take, but, you know, interviews are probably the time. And are we holding everybody to that standard? You know what I mean? So, you know, asking more questions, inquiring with people, helping them reflect back what they are, what they may not. Unconsciously realize and, you know, calling out instances of competency checking, you know, you know, if somebody says, oh, you know, I, I just felt she was so angry and you'd be, you could ask, well, that's interesting because I didn't tell me what, what were the indicators to you of her anger? I'm just, you know, I'm curious, like, how did you get, you see what I'm saying? Like, you're, you're really trying to. Do something called motivational interviewing, which is ask people why they think what they think, as opposed to saying, well, I don't think that that's a lie. I think that's racist. Okay. Like, that's not going to work. Right. But if you, you, you are, you trying to get them there to the same place, but you're asking different questions and then. You know, I talk about the fact that women, uh, black women and white women really do need to find some way to, to bridge this gap that exists between us. And I talk about the book about unmasking imposter syndrome, which I think is very destructive to women and white women in particular. And. Because systems change is the only way we're going to do this. And, you know, when it comes to women, there are equal to, if not more women in the workplace than men in many workplaces. And yet, and yet they don't work collectively together to make significant change. So, you know, those are some of the things, um, they're not all the things, but some of the things. Right.

Nijiama Smalls 44:20

are allies or accomplices or whatever the case is, but you know, show us that in action, you know, and it's okay, you know. Challenge. If you see something weird, it's okay to do what you said and ask the hard questions. What, what do you mean by angry? What do you mean by aggressive? it was me, would you say that? You know, ask the questions to get them to think about, um, what it is they're saying and what they're getting at. And I have had, I love you say challenge, um, supremacy thoughts. Because, you know, white supremacy is so ingrained our culture. I even have to check my own thoughts, right? Um,

Shari Dunn 45:05

Of course, of course.

Nijiama Smalls 45:06

just even, you know, in terms of, you know, what I'm saying to my children and so on, I have to check myself. And I say, wait a minute, where did that come from? Who is this benefiting? You know, those kinds of questions I have to ask myself. So, and I don't think people understand how deeply ingrained it is. In us and when we're

Shari Dunn 45:27

Mm-hmm

Nijiama Smalls 45:28

behaviors, it's okay for someone to call you out on those behaviors. We need to normalize that calling people out on those behaviors and being able to say, help me to see what you don't see. I mean, or help me to see what I don't

Shari Dunn 45:45

Yeah.

Nijiama Smalls 45:46

And, and I think that is

Shari Dunn 45:47

Yeah. What am I missing?

Nijiama Smalls 45:49

the gap.

Shari Dunn 45:51

Yeah. What am I missing? And I also think white women have to stop seeing themselves as allies and understand that they have a dual role. They have a role of, as a victimizer and a victim, and they can be both victimizers and victims. And so they need to check that victimizer that. Lives in them because it's historical. I mean, black people were the first piece of property white women could ever own in the United States was black people. Right.

Nijiama Smalls 46:15

Interesting.

Shari Dunn 46:16

white women do have to check that, but they're also victims of this system. They are also victims and they don't seem to catch that, that, that if this system falls for us, it falls for them. If it falls for us, it falls for them. And so they don't, I don't, they don't need to be my ally because that to some extent that they're in it, they need to figure out how to get in it with us because this is your fight too. And the fight against anti Blackness, I always tell people liberates, not just Black people, but everybody. That is the distinction. The fight against anti blackness doesn't just liberate black people. Um, every time in the United States, we've tried to address anti blackness. Other people have benefited and people do argue other people more, right? So, you know, um, in order to make Africans freed Africans. Uh, citizens, we bring in the birthright citizenship, which Donald Trump's trying to get rid of because people actually have been trying to get rid of it since we became citizens. There, there's a whole string of white supremacist thought that does not like birthright citizenship because it goes back to us being coming citizens. That being said, millions of white people are American citizens through the story of immigration to the United States because of birthright citizenship, because of anti black bias, addressing anti black bias. Um, you know, I talk about, you know, those with disabilities, the disability rights movement modeled itself off the civil rights movement. The Black Panthers helped the disability rights advocates on sit ins. Um, there is nothing that anti Black Uh, fighting against anti black bias has ever done negatively in the United States for white people. White women, as we all know, have been the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action because they were included in the legislation as a poison pill. A Southern Democrat put women in because he thought that it would kill the legislation. So they, you know, they benefit. And have benefit. And I'm not, I'm not, some people say this and they're, they say it like, Oh, I'm mad at them. They I'm, I'm still mad at white supremacy. I'm not, I'm not going to fight down here. I'm really more interested up here. But what I really, what I wish is that more white women either understood or were vested in this fight, because it is. Their fight just as much. It is our fight.

Nijiama Smalls 48:46

Absolutely. 100%. Well said. Sherry, where can we find your book?

Shari Dunn 48:54

Yeah. Well, it is available everywhere. Books are sold. So Amazon, uh, bookshop. org, uh, check with your local bookstores, community bookstores. It's generally available everywhere. Books are sold. It's on audible. So it's audio book and it's on other audio platforms. Um, so you can listen to it. Um, if you want to find out more about me, I have a website, which is the, uh, S H A R I D U N N dot com. So the sherry done. com. I also have a sub stack, a subscription where I'm going to be doing a study guide later this month, uh, starting about the book. So people can learn more about the book.

Nijiama Smalls 49:33

Absolutely. Thank you. This has been a truly enlightening conversation. I could talk to you all day, Sherry. Um, listen. Sisters, please go out. Let's get this book. This is great for our book clubs. My mocha moms who's out there listening. We need to get all of our chapters to read this book. And in our book clubs, we need to be reading this book. D9, y'all get this book. This is a book. And even our, our, our white sister friends, y'all need to read this, have this conversation. If you know of any organization that really wants. to understand how to do the correct way, because as Sherry has said, there is an incorrect way. Y'all reach out to Sherry Dunn and, uh, a call with her. She is phenomenal. And her book is also chocked full of statistics and data to support what she is saying. Thank you, Sherry, for your time. This has

Shari Dunn 50:27

Thank you.

Nijiama Smalls 50:29

Thank you all for listening today. Join me, stop by the black girls guide to healing emotional wounds for resources. And I will have Sherry's book there, uh, listed so that we can all go out and purchase. Thank you all again. Have a great rest of your day.