39 - Lactation Support Without the Shame: A Conversation with Emily Ager LM, IBCLC

In this episode of Doula Talk: Postpartum, Babies, and the Battle for Sleep, Deb sits down with licensed midwife and IBCLC, Emily Ager, for the kind of raw, no-guilt, reality-check conversation every parent needs about feeding their baby. Emily shares her journey from EMT to midwife to lactation consultant, and how her mission became crystal clear: supporting families with feeding plans that are realistic, sustainable, and completely free of shame.

They tackle the myths and “shoulds” that leave parents burned out and doubting themselves, explore the freedom and sanity that combo feeding can offer, and call out harmful advice, like long-term triple feeding, that needs to be retired. Emily reminds us that feeding isn’t just about nutrition; it’s about protecting your mental health, enjoying your baby, and finding a rhythm that actually works in your life.

From prepping your support team before baby arrives, to involving your partner in practical ways, to knowing when it’s time to change the plan, this episode is packed with compassionate, evidence-based, and yes, slightly sassy guidance that will leave you feeling empowered instead of overwhelmed.

Listeners will walk away knowing they don’t have to choose between a fed baby and a thriving parent; you can have both.

✨ Free Resources: Sign up for Deb’s Free Resource Library for downloadable guides, including feeding prep checklists and newborn care tools.

💬 Work with Deb: Whether you’re pregnant and want a prenatal consult, navigating postpartum feeding struggles, or need holistic, gentle sleep support, Deb offers one-on-one services to meet you where you are, locally and virtually.

Hit play and hear the truth about feeding without the pressure, perfectionism, or guilt. Your sanity, and your baby, will thank you.

Chapters

• 2:00 Emily Ager's Unique Journey to Lactation Consulting
• 2:52 Transitioning to Lactation Consulting
• 4:32 Challenges in the Medical System
• 5:44 The Importance of Shame-Free Sustainable Feeding
• 8:34 Understanding Combo Feeding and Its Myths
• 23:00 Establishing Nursing and Feeding Dynamics
• 27:44 Challenges of Modern Breastfeeding
• 33:23 The Impact of Support Systems
• 39:30 Preparing for the Breastfeeding Journey
• 45:56 Reassurance and Support in Parenting
• 48:23 Involving Partners in Parenting
• 51:20 The Role of Social Media in Parenting Anxiety
• 54:22 Surrendering to the Parenting Process
• 1:00:18 The Importance of Doulas and Professional Support
• 1:06:34 Building a Supportive Community for Parents

Transcript

Deb (00:47)
Hey friends, welcome back to Doula Talk. Today we are diving into one of the most anxiety inducing, joy-filled, didn't anyone tell me this parts of a new parent life and that is feeding your baby. And I am not gonna sugar coat it. The advice out there can range from incredibly helpful to downright harmful.

That's why I asked the amazing Emily here, licensed midwife turned IBCLC lactation consultant, who is all about shame-free sustainable feeding plans that actually work for your life, not just a textbook version. about ditching the guilt, navigating combo feeding without feeling like you're giving up.

busting those unrealistic social media expectations and figuring out what's actually doable when you're sleep deprived because maybe you're still in mesh underwear. Emily's approach is refreshingly real.

totally doable and focused on keeping parents sane and babies thriving. So whether you're expecting in the thick of newborn trenches or

just curious about how to support your milk making friends, you're gonna wanna hear this one.

Alright, let's get into it.

Deb (02:00)
hi Emily. Thank you so much for being here.

Emily Ager (02:03)
Hi Deb,

thanks so much for having me.

Deb (02:06)
I'm so glad you came wanted to just start with what your background is and how you came to be a lactation consultant because you have quite a unique lens of how you work with folks.

Emily Ager (02:17)
Yeah, sure. I'd love to share that with you. So my journey started pretty...

intensely in the medical field. my first formal education in the medical field was EMT training. And I really didn't think that I would make a career out of it. I really wanted some basic medical background because I was doing a lot of traveling in remote areas and just wanted to be able to handle kind of just basic. I had some like scary

Deb (02:45)
Yeah.

Emily Ager (02:48)
situations happening when I was in some remote areas and I wanted that knowledge base. So I took an EMT course and I actually really loved it and my instructor in that course encouraged me to continue in some medical field but and I never really thought I would do that. So ⁓ I ended up applying for nursing school and then my sister actually convinced me to do a doula training with her and I was like what I don't even know what that

Deb (03:06)
Yeah.

wow.

Emily Ager (03:16)
is? What is that?" She's like, it's

Deb (03:16)
Yeah, so cool. Yeah.

Emily Ager (03:18)
like birth is birth. I'm like, birth? What? I just...it wasn't something that was even really on my...yeah, it wasn't on my radar. But I did this doula training and I thought it was super cool and I found out what a midwife was through that training and I thought...

Deb (03:22)
Yeah, it wasn't on your radar.

Emily Ager (03:35)
That's a really cool job in the medical field, but you're caring for usually healthy people. It's just a normal physiological process. And that was kind of like a little light bulb that went off in my head. That's something that sounded really amazing to be a part of. yeah.

Deb (03:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's so unique. It's medical, but it's like,

it's so unique to just work with healthy patients. Yeah.

Emily Ager (03:57)
Right,

yeah, most of the time you're not dealing with sick people and ⁓ that sounded really cool to me, yeah.

Deb (04:01)
Right.

right?

Emily Ager (04:05)
So I had done all my prerequisites for nursing school because I was thinking about becoming a nurse But then I found out that there was actually a direct entry midwife program about 20 minutes from where I lived it was one of two on the west coast and so I applied to nursing school and midwifery school at the same time and I got right into the midwifery program and Through that program I think

Deb (04:16)
Nice.

cool.

Emily Ager (04:32)
It just really opened my eyes to how much the medical system generally fails new parents and just so much of the injustices and inequities that happen in...

Deb (04:40)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (04:48)
the traditional kind of field and how people generally have babies in America. And it really just kind of lit this passion that I had for providing really wonderful care that was centered around the parents' well-being and really put their mental health and their best interest at the center of their care, which

Deb (05:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

novel idea. What? This is radical, Emily.

Emily Ager (05:16)
Shouldn't be a radical idea. Yeah. I know, I'm blowing your mind right now.

So it shouldn't be that radical, but and yet it was. And I think also just hearing so many birth stories throughout my training of people who had been traumatized in their birth experiences or, I mean...

Deb (05:26)
Right, yeah.

Emily Ager (05:39)
honestly assaulted in some situations. I know you've heard the stories too and it's just, yes, yeah. And so I just knew that this was the field that I wanted to work in and it brought me a lot of joy and it felt like a mission, kind of felt like I was on a mission.

Deb (05:41)
Yeah, Mm-hmm, I've been witnessed, yes, yes.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (05:59)
Yeah, so I became a licensed midwife in 2014 in California and practiced for a few years and then moved to Washington and did not have

the family support that I needed to be on call. So the on-call lifestyle as a midwife and I was practicing outside the hospital, which ⁓ is beautiful and I love normal physiological births. I worked in birth centers and at the birth end at home and I thought that I would continue doing that in Washington, but because of how difficult it is to be on call, ⁓ I just did not have the support I needed to continue that. So I kind of started exploring other options for

Deb (06:21)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (06:46)
how I could stay in my field, working with a demographic of new parents and start exploring lactation, found out that St. Joe's was also right by my house. I could see St. Joe's from my living room and found out that they were hiring lactation specialists. And I was able to work there for a few years, get a lot of really great in-hospital experience that I feel like was very complimentary.

Deb (06:59)
Nice.

Emily Ager (07:14)
to the outside of the hospital experience that I had. It just gave me like a really well-rounded view of what people experience and how babies respond to different birth experiences too. ⁓

Deb (07:28)
Mmm, which is so huge.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (07:32)
Yeah, and it

was so different because I had only seen mostly unmedicated, non-augmented births and they're so different. So it was so different, just very eye-opening, but it made me also very, very comfortable in that more medicalized clinical setting. ⁓

Deb (07:41)
Those babies are very different. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (07:56)
And then, yeah, so I became an IBCLC, largely I was able to get all of my hours to do that and did all my studies in about a year and a half, I think I was done with all of that, but worked at St. Joe's for three years. The pathway that I did was pretty fast because I was already a licensed, yeah, I was already a midwife, so it was much easier, or much faster, and I was at a high volume hospital, so I was able to get a lot of hours working there.

Deb (08:08)
Wow, that's quick. That's great.

already in midway. Yeah. that's great.

Mm-hmm.

Right. That's great.

Emily Ager (08:25)
So yeah, kind of busted through that and then that becoming a lactation consultant was so much more compatible with my life and having my own kids, being able to know when I was going to be at work and when I was coming home was really nice. So I started my private practice in 2018, right before the pandemic.

Deb (08:35)
Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.

Good timing.

Emily Ager (08:52)
And yeah, it

was interesting timing. Started as a whole wellness center and it was this really beautiful business that we ended up ⁓ having to close because of the pandemic. But my lactation practice was within that wellness center and it actually kind of really thrived during the pandemic because so many people wanted to stay out of the hospital and didn't want to go back to a somewhere where there was a lot of ⁓ illness. They wanted to keep their babies at home. So because I

Deb (09:06)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (09:21)
was mostly doing home visits in the beginning. My practice took off during that time. So one weird silver lining is a horrible thing that happened in our history.

Deb (09:29)
Right? Yeah. Yeah. True.

Emily Ager (09:32)
Yeah, so yeah, that was kind of how I came to do what I'm doing now and then invited Whitney, our other IBCLC to join me ⁓ about two years into starting my practice and having two of us has been incredible just being able to

work collaboratively and I mean we're both pretty extroverted too so just like having another person in the office is more fun. It's fun, we can back each other up. Yeah, yeah, we've been able to help so many more people. ⁓

Deb (09:54)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and also booking more families. Yeah, yeah, like there's so much. Yeah,

there's so much help that's needed out there, so it's nice to have like that flexibility with both of you there. Yeah. Yeah, which is great.

Emily Ager (10:09)
Yeah, yeah and we'll cover each other when we're sick or out of town or you know so it's just been

amazing to be able to expand my practice that way. Yeah.

Deb (10:17)
Yeah, perfect.

Well, and you have your own location now. Do you want to talk about that?

Emily Ager (10:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so I feel like after Whitney came on, we just got so much busier too and had to kind of limit our home visits to babies who were two weeks and younger.

Deb (10:34)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (10:35)
which as a midwife, I'm like, yes, stay at home, stay home, stay in bed for the first two weeks as much as possible. So I really believe in being able to continue to offer home visits. It's really important to me that that's a service that we continue to provide. And then, but.

Deb (10:39)
Yes.

but it's definitely, yeah.

but it's a logistical

nightmare. It's so hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Ager (10:51)
It is, and like when you're recovering from a C-section and going to all the appointments and stuff, I would just much

prefer that you can stay home. And people really love it. People really love the home visits. But yeah, we had to limit them to a certain age group and then we got an office on sixth Ave. And mostly, probably see about 80 to 90 % of our clients in the office at this point.

Deb (10:59)
Yeah, for sure.

Nice, perfect, awesome. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and with traffic nowadays it's like, it's so hard. Yeah.

Emily Ager (11:16)
Yeah. It's much more efficient that way. I wish I could do home visits for everybody, but it's just like impossible.

Yeah,

there's just not enough hours in the day.

Deb (11:29)
Yeah,

it's unsustainable for sure. Okay, so I want to talk about, you know, how you work with families if maybe people don't know what lactation consultants do. One thing that you have on your website is that you do shame-free sustainable feeding. And I kind of want to understand what that means to you and how you support families.

Emily Ager (11:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

love that you're asking this question. So oftentimes when we see our clients, we have our maybe the third or fourth lactation consultant they have seen already between hospital or, you know.

centers or online help or you know friends or whatever and unfortunately a very very common story that we hear is that they were guilted into doing something or shamed for not doing something or shamed for doing something and yeah just so much pressure was put on them to either push through intolerable pain or

Deb (12:21)
Yeah, pressure. Yeah. ⁓

Bye.

Emily Ager (12:30)
exclusively breastfeed a baby no matter what even if they're feeding 20 times in 24 hours or you know never use formula because it's poison or just just like so many kind of extreme viewpoints and by the time they get here they're exhausted they're crying through their appointments and they're usually just like at their wits end

Deb (12:39)
⁓ god. I've heard so many bad stories.

Yeah, have no idea what

to do, yeah.

Emily Ager (12:54)
Yeah, yes, or they're done. They're like, you are my last, you're my last door that I'm gonna knock on, because I am about ready to quit, because I have been so driven into the ground. And when you look back on the history of everything, you can really see, if this certain, you know, step off the pathway could have been avoided, then we wouldn't have gotten so far off, and you wouldn't have gotten to this really deep, dark...

Deb (12:58)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (13:22)
hole that you feel really stuck in. But since this is where we're at, because that's the reality, we're going to come up with something that hopefully relieves the guilt and the shame. And like we go over kind of all the stories that have been told to them of, you know, how badly they screwed up, which is oftentimes like how it is worded to them. And yes.

Deb (13:22)
Right. Yes. Mm-hmm.

That's, yeah.

Right. Yeah, or how badly their body has failed them.

Emily Ager (13:47)
Also like that their baby is lazy or whatever and then I just really try to like take away a lot of those negative words, not a of the negative talk. Like your baby's not lazy, your baby's struggling or you know they're just a baby that has different needs than other babies. but...

Deb (13:54)
Like, no.

Yes! Yeah.

Right, right, yes.

Emily Ager (14:06)
I also really try to explain this information that was given to you wasn't good information. It's not your fault that somebody gave you the wrong information. You were really trying to do what was best for your baby. And unfortunately, you were misled. And it's very frustrating, but also I think it does help people to hear that. ⁓

Deb (14:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (14:33)
Also, I think looking at the whole picture for people, because the textbooks say one thing for like, if you're breastfeeding, you're supposed to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Deb (14:45)
right.

Emily Ager (14:46)
And

they don't, the textbook doesn't know that, you know, the breastfeeding parent has four other kids that they're taking care of and their partner's already back to work. And they have a two-year-old climbing all over them. And I know the textbook is saying that you should be pumping after every feed, you know, eight times a day. But that's not, that's not possible.

Deb (14:53)
Right.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

The reality is, yeah,

yeah.

Emily Ager (15:10)
You know,

so we talk a lot about like, yeah, there's the gold standard for what the textbook says, but then what's your reality? Like what is the, what is the amount of energy that you actually have to put into this? And validating that like all the other work that you're doing to take care of your other children or to take care of your healing body is incredibly important. And there's a lot on your plate. There's only so much you can do. So let's figure

Deb (15:15)
Right. Mm-hmm.

right.

It's awesome.

Mm-hmm. Right. There's only so much. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (15:40)
out a way to try to meet your goals as closely as possible but if that's not perfection that's okay and you are doing everything you possibly can be doing.

Deb (15:51)
Right, yes.

Emily Ager (15:51)
⁓ So some and

sometimes that is accepting things like a low milk supply that's just not going to come up or maybe it could come up but you can't pump eight times a day on top of nursing a baby 12 times a day. ⁓ So let's figure out how to nurse the baby as much as possible and fill in some of the calorie gaps with formula. ⁓

Deb (16:01)
Right. Mm-hmm. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (16:13)
really, really try to use words like, you know, you don't have enough milk or ⁓ I'd say things like fill in calorie gaps with formula because a lot of people think, if I have to use any formula, then I'm not breastfeeding or I'm not exclusively breastfeeding. And that means that the baby's not getting all of the benefits of breastfeeding. Yeah.

Deb (16:20)
rate.

Right? Yes.

Right, and that it can't be something that you balance and that you can totally

sustain and it's fine. It's fine. Right?

Emily Ager (16:44)
Yeah, like it's okay to use formula

and breastfeed and your baby's still getting the full benefits of breastfeeding and you're getting giving them extra calories with formula. That's okay. Yeah, you have a parent that's not, yes, not driven into the ground.

Deb (16:49)
Yeah.

Yes, and we also have a happy parent and rested parent, right? And I mean, when you

exactly, and I see clients who come home from those visits and they hear that and then a lot of that guilt and shame comes off and their milk supply comes up because they're not bogged down by all the shoulds and coulds and and you know, all these things. Yeah.

Emily Ager (17:11)
Yes! Yes! Yeah.

Sometimes

even I've had parents who they had somebody give them donor milk and it was like the moment somebody gave them some donor milk their own milk supply came up. Mm-hmm because they were like, my gosh, I don't have to provide every single ounce to my baby. I can relax. Yeah.

Deb (17:25)
It was the relief. Yes, it was the relief. I don't have to worry. Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes,

yes, so much. Yeah. And I think it's so great for a lactation consultant to help people zoom out because they're just so in the zone of this next feed and today, and this is never going to change, that we can kind of zoom out and be like, this is so temporary, you know? And let's look at what it's going to look like in a month and, or, you know, what are those goals for you and how do we get there from here? And maybe you don't have to push so hard. Like it's okay.

Emily Ager (17:41)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb (18:00)
Yeah.

Emily Ager (18:00)
Yeah, and maybe we don't

need to do the gold standard thing because if we do that, you're going to burn out in a week. Let's do the less ideal. Let's go do the bronze standard thing. And that means you'll be able to get, yeah, then you'll be able to get to a month and then we can start taking things off your plate and actually get you to your goal instead of burning out so quickly doing every single thing that you're quote unquote supposed to

Deb (18:04)
Right.

Right. Yes.

right. Yes, yeah, but then you have a sustained...

Yeah.

Emily Ager (18:29)
doing.

Deb (18:30)
Right,

right. And that kind of goes to the next question about like the common myths and like the shoulds and like how do those end up undermining? Of like the more that you push and it's just unsustainable you don't get to those goals because you're over overworking basically.

Emily Ager (18:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes, I see people burn out so fast sometimes and I oftentimes I'll tell people like triple feeding triple feeding is when you breastfeed first you pump afterwards and you bottle feed the baby the milk that you pumped and Since babies eat eight to twelve times in a 24-hour period this pattern It's when people are like, yeah, the doctor told me I just need to triple feed and they are you know three weeks in

Deb (19:07)
Yeah.

Emily Ager (19:16)
that when they see me and they have and yeah they've got dark circles under their eyes and they're like this is horrible I'm traumatized

Deb (19:16)
Yeah, and they just wash their hands of it, the doctors, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Yes. Yes.

Emily Ager (19:26)
I think that

telling anybody to triple feed as a long-term plan is inhumane. I think I call it inhumane. Those are the words I use. It's torture. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So if I...and sometimes it's...sometimes triple feeding is necessary. So if I put somebody on a triple feeding plan, I say, is how long we're going to do this, and we reassess. And if you hit a wall, please tell me.

Deb (19:29)
No. Yep. Yes. That's torture. It's literally torture. Yes. Yeah.

Right, and then we reassess. Right. Yep.

Emily Ager (19:54)
reach out to me so we can go to the plan B. Instead

Deb (19:54)
And then we can, Right. ⁓

Emily Ager (19:59)
of completely throwing the towel in, can alter the plan so that it's more manageable. ⁓

Deb (20:04)
you

Exactly. Yeah, I just, I see that

a lot from pediatricians. Well, meaning, you know, and they want the moms to succeed, but it's like, they send them home with this plan of triple feeding with no referrals. And then, and then these parents are like, what, so now what? This is just my life. And, they're like, well, breastfeeding is not for me then. And that is just so heartbreaking because it's, yeah, it's meant to be just a temporary thing. Yeah.

Emily Ager (20:10)
Right.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. And

Deb (20:32)
Thank

Emily Ager (20:32)
now and then I'd actually get people who have been triple feeding the whole time and now they're making enough milk for three babies. Beak... Like okay we can stop now.

Deb (20:39)
Right, they're like, no one told me I need to stop with the pumping.

We're like,

wait, how many babies do you have? How many are we feeding here? Yes. Right. And then you have to, yeah, go down. And that's just as much work because, and pain. my God, so much pain. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emily Ager (20:46)
Yes! Are you feeding the neighborhood? Yeah, we don't need to continue this plan.

And pain? Yeah, it's pain and it can cause things

like clogged ducts and mastitis and it can just make it so complicated.

Deb (21:07)
For

sure.

Emily Ager (21:08)
Having the right feeding plan for your baby that feels sustainable and is not driving you into the ground or absolutely destroying your mental health and is allowing you to enjoy your baby in such a short period of time that they're a baby, those are really the biggest goals that I'm encouraging people to set as their goals.

Deb (21:24)
Oh, key. Mic drop there. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and I think that's a key thing that we, you know, as doulas we forget is that we're put so much importance toward bringing  milk supply in and it's only temporary. But, you know, if that plan is, is making it so that they can't number one, heal and then number two, be able to bond with their baby. They're just so stressed out about their milk. That's not a good plan.

Emily Ager (21:51)
Yeah.

Absolutely.

Deb (21:57)
That's not a good

plan. And then these moms and parents are looking back and they're like, I don't even remember it. And there's some grief around that. Yeah.

Emily Ager (22:02)
Yeah.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard

a parent say, looking back on their experience, man, I really wish I had exclusively breastfed my baby and sacrificed my mental health to do so. I've never heard someone say that. I've only heard somebody say, I'm so glad I took the pressure off myself and did this alternative plan.

Deb (22:19)
Yeah, that sounds like so great. I love it. Yes, yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (22:32)
that maybe wasn't

my original plan, but I'm so glad I did it so that I can enjoy this experience with my baby.

Deb (22:35)
and I took care of myself.

Yeah, and I hear the other one, which is my story, is I look back and I'm like, I wish I would have taken a step back and taken better care of my mental health during that whole thing because it was very important to me to feed breast milk to my babies, but at the same time, like seeing the sacrifices that I ended up having to give up and realizing how bad it got with my mental health, I wish I would have taken some pressure off.

Emily Ager (22:46)
Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Deb (23:05)
of like how hard I was going. Like it was, it was a lot. So we kind of touched on a little bit about combo feeding and how

Emily Ager (23:08)
Absolutely. ⁓

Yeah.

Deb (23:18)
how you kind of come to that conclusion or maybe like, you know, just talk a little bit more about how parents would explore combo feeding because that's something not a lot of people know is a thing. think, ⁓ if I, soon as I, like you said, as soon as I introduced that formula, well, I'll just might as well wind down and stop breastfeeding.

Emily Ager (23:26)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I know I think a lot of people think they have to be on one side of the fence or the other either breastfed or bottle-fed or breastfed or formula fed and Yeah

Deb (23:47)
Right, and it kind of like that guilt of like giving up. I gave

up, so now I have to feed them this. And like that shame and guilt around that.

Emily Ager (23:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. man, the giving up thing too. I... People ask me a lot, should I just give up? And I'm like, well first of all, that's never my call because you are the only one who knows when your bandwidth is done. So if you need me to give you permission to be done, let's not call it giving up. Let's call it making a different choice.

Deb (24:04)
I know. ⁓

Right. Yes. Right.

Absolutely. Right. Right. Right. And

you did a fantastic job. And that chapter is? Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Emily Ager (24:23)
Yeah. Yes. And let's celebrate every freaking drop of milk that you made for your baby and how hard you've

worked. And let's celebrate that. And then make a different choice. Yeah. And if you need me to be the one to high five you on that, yeah. I'm your girl.

Deb (24:36)
I love that.

Right, like, it's okay. It is

okay.

Emily Ager (24:42)
And that sometimes, I have had appointments where literally that was all that needed to happen. They just needed somebody to tell them, it's okay to be done. You can be done. Yeah. But getting back to the combo feeding, I think that...

Deb (24:48)
It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's so important. ⁓

Emily Ager (24:56)
Combo feeding can be a really great option if you started out wanting to exclusively breastfeed your baby and then find out that despite all of your efforts, your milk production is less than what they need for all of their nutrition.

Sometimes, like ultimately, the best case scenario would be that your baby is able to breastfeed effectively, transferring the milk that you are making, and then you fill in the calorie gaps with formula, and you never have to pump. That is generally the, yes, that's generally like the most sustainable, most...

Deb (25:29)
Yes, that would be so nice.

Emily Ager (25:35)
enjoyable way to combo feed. I think what's really difficult is if your baby is not breastfeeding or is not able to transfer milk effectively and you have a low supply so you end up kind of doing like nursing, pumping, bottle feeding pumped milk and formula that can get a little bit tricky so ⁓

Deb (25:36)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (25:56)
sometimes it's really helpful to have a really clear plan. Like I'm going to nurse the baby for the first two feeds in the day when I have the most milk available and then the next two sessions I will...

Deb (26:06)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (26:11)
pump and do a combination of some breast milk feeding and some formula feeding and then I'll like nurse the baby again before bed or something where it's like I have a plan of for when I'm going to do these things ⁓ but you can if you

Deb (26:15)
Mm-hmm.

Alright. ⁓

Emily Ager (26:28)
If you're going to combo feed or if you know you want a combo feed from the start, mostly like out of convenience. So if you know, I don't want to be the baby's only food source, which is fair. But what's tricky about it is...

Deb (26:35)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Right.

Emily Ager (26:43)
⁓ nursing is harder for a baby than bottle feeding. So it's really important for that. actually learn the hardest way to feed first before they know that bottles exist. So if, if you start out wanting a combo feed, I suggest focusing on, on breastfeeding or chestfeeding for the first month or so, if you can. and then introducing bottles and then creating more of the sustainable, like how much are we going to combo feed?

whether that's bottle or pumped milk or formula and maybe involve a partner or somebody else who's going to help to feed the baby and then like kind of swing the pendulum more to the middle after the baby gets really efficient and good at and comfortable with nursing. That's kind of like the ideal way to...

Deb (27:17)
Mm-hmm.

Is there a timeline

for that? Like, average? You think like a good...

Emily Ager (27:32)
for how long it takes

the nursing to be established. I think it usually takes about a month unless there's like major...

Deb (27:35)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (27:40)
You know, if there's like a tongue tie that we're watching or that gets released and you have to kind of like let the baby adjust to that. If there's some complications, it can definitely take longer than that. But for the most part, I would say if nursing is going pretty well, about a month of focusing on that, and then you can start introducing some, if you wanted to pump and bottle feed, you could do that. If you wanted just to drop a couple nursing sessions in a day and do formula instead, then that's

Deb (27:40)
issues going on. Yeah.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (28:09)
be a good time to do it. And it's really it's because of the bottle preference ⁓ because that is a real thing and it's it depends on the baby but some babies it's like as soon as they know a bottle exists they don't want to nurse anymore. Yeah.

Deb (28:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. Well,

I mean, they are creatures of like the most efficient thing, you know? So, no, it's, well, it's like survival, right? Survivor is good. This is how we got to be a species, right? So it's, yeah.

Emily Ager (28:31)
Exactly. It's not laziness, it's actually intelligence. It's survival.

Exactly, yes.

And I, ⁓ my gosh, yeah, there's a lot of times I see parents whose babies have, because the baby prefer bottles over breastfeeding. And a lot of parents, the nursing parent feels very rejected by that. It's very emotional.

Deb (28:50)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ yeah, for sure.

Emily Ager (28:59)
when their baby doesn't

want to latch. They just don't like me. They don't like it. They're so, I know. So I try to really explain, it's not that they don't like you, it's that they have a really strong instinct to survive and that they are a strong and smart baby. Yes. Yes.

Deb (29:03)
I know there's so much behind that story that we tell ourselves. I know.

Yes. Yes. Yes. This is more efficient for them for whatever reason. I mean, there may be underlying reasons, you know, behind that.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (29:24)
Yeah, so reframing that is...can be really important, but there's just so much like...there's so much emotion behind feeding your baby, which is, you know, also a survival instinct. If we didn't care, then we wouldn't have lasted for very long. You know, just like leave them in the...leave them in the jungle.

Deb (29:30)
Yeah.

my gosh.

Yeah, we just eat our babies. Like, why are you crying? Get away from me. Yeah, exactly.

It's like, why am I torturing myself right now? Yeah.

Emily Ager (29:49)
Yeah, exactly. So there's

a lot of motion tied to it. Yeah, we're supposed to care about it.

Deb (29:52)
Totally. Well, and then sleep deprivation

doesn't help the situation either. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Emily Ager (29:56)
and the hormones, so many contributing factors. yeah, but combo

feeding, think, is definitely something, it's like if you feel like...

breastfeeding or chestfeeding is not working because you're not able to do it 100%. Do you still want to do it at all? Like if you still want to keep it as part of the feeding plan, we can probably come up with some combination of breast or chestfeeding your baby and formula feeding in a way that feels good to you and meets everybody's needs. Yeah.

Deb (30:25)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well I've had some moms that didn't really love nursing, like it just

was not, it didn't work for them. And then when they wound down and they were pumping and then every once in they just, their baby would want to latch and they're like, ⁓ I guess it's fine. And it worked, you know, they're like, is that okay? I'm like, absolutely. Like whatever works for you guys. Yeah, as long as it's okay with you and your body, then great, go for

Emily Ager (30:35)
Yeah.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes! Of course it's okay.

Deb (30:55)
ahead, sorry.

Emily Ager (30:55)
I've had some parents who have had such low milk supplies where they might pump for eight times a day and the total volume is one or two ounces that they get in a whole day. But they wanted to nurse their baby so badly.

Deb (31:06)
Ugh, heartbreaking.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (31:12)
And

in those situations, I'm like, well, keep latching your baby. Like if your baby wants to keep latching, do that. Think about it as a multivitamin. This is the multivitamin that they get every day. They get their meals from a bottle and from formula, but they get multivitamin and this amazing bonding experience with you. As long as they're happy and you're happy, then keep latching them. There's no and that is kind of a radical idea for a lot of people. They're like, what? That's OK.

Deb (31:16)
Great. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. ⁓

Yep. It's medicine. Yep. Yep.

Right, there's no problem. Yep.

Yeah. ⁓ okay,

great. Yeah, and I think that key goes back to, know, as long as the baby's happy at the breast and like, great, go for it. And everybody's enjoying it. It just really doesn't matter. They'll get their nutrition. They'll take care of it outside of that and they just go for it. ⁓

Emily Ager (31:41)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Pacifiers were created to simulate a breast. So you can also just use a breast as a pacifier.

Deb (32:04)
Right, exactly. Well, it's such a calming thing for them to do. So it's like, why not? Right. ⁓ So why do you think that breastfeeding or chestfeeding feels so hard for modern families today?

Emily Ager (32:09)
Yeah, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I think there's a lot of contributing factors. Here's one. In a traditional hunter-gatherer society, there were 10 to 20 adults to respond to every newborn.

Deb (32:31)
Wouldn't that be amazing? That makes me feel so much better about how stressed out I was. Because I'm like, whoo! Yes, that's amazing.

Emily Ager (32:33)
Yes. So that's enough of a reason right there.

try to tell everybody that because when

I learned that, it was like a light bulb went off. Like, oh, we really haven't changed that much as a species since then. So it makes sense that when we are at home isolated with a screaming baby in our arms for 24 hours by ourselves...

Deb (32:48)
For real.

Yeah. ⁓ yeah, no, yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Maybe. Right. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Ager (33:03)
Or maybe with one other person who's equally sleep deprived and exhausted. That we're like, why is this so hard? And we're so hard on ourselves.

So it's because we're not supposed to do it alone. That's why. And taking care of a baby is just really hard. It's really exhausting and really hard. And it almost feels like you have to have superhuman strength to do it. So I kind of figure.

Deb (33:16)
Yeah. ⁓ that's so true.

Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (33:28)
If anything feels that hard, it's probably not how we're supposed to be doing it. Just because of survival and evolution and... ⁓ Yeah, so that and then I think the... Generally, like, our health is not great.

Deb (33:33)
Yeah.

Right. mean, it just, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Emily Ager (33:47)
In especially in America, like we just a lot of people have underlying health issues, which can be a big contributing factor, whether it's an autoimmune disease or hypothyroidism or PCOS. It's like a lot of underlying health issues can affect your milk production. So our healthcare system really sucks at preventing things. It's a yes.

Deb (34:06)
for sure.

Yeah, well creating health versus just putting band-aids

on, you know, symptoms. Yeah, there's not really a lot of systems in place to amplify your health unless you're willing to pay out of pocket and a lot of money out of pocket, which a lot of us don't have the disposable income for.

Emily Ager (34:17)
Exactly.

Yes. Exactly. Yeah,

so generally a lot of people are not starting in a very like physically or mentally healthy place when they have a baby. So that just that just makes it harder to. The paid family leave that we get in this country is horrendous in comparison to... Yes. If you get anything.

Deb (34:38)
Yeah.

Yup, ding ding ding. If at all,

Emily Ager (34:52)
Most, you know, wealthy developed countries have at least a year, at least a year of paid leave. I think the vast majority of my clients return back to work somewhere between 12 and 16 weeks. And those are...

Deb (35:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (35:13)
A lot of people are like, I get 12 weeks of paid leave. Isn't that great? And I'm like, that's great because of the history of you getting nothing, but when you compare it to other countries, it's awesome.

Deb (35:16)
Yes, I was just gonna say that. They're like, my so lucky.

It's garbage.

Well, and it's not necessarily paid. You know, it doesn't have to be paid. You're lucky if you get paid by certain companies. Yeah.

Emily Ager (35:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

the leave that, and like this is in Washington, Washington has like one of the more generous coverages too of the states. So there's unfortunately a lot of states have nothing or maybe six weeks or four weeks or something that's just abysmal. Most puppies have more rights than babies for when they are legally separated from their parents.

Deb (35:44)
Mm-hmm. It actually does. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is... Yeah. Yes. That's so gross.

That's so gross when you think about it.

Emily Ager (36:05)
Yeah. So, I think that really contributes to people just even just the mindset. A lot of people are like, well, if it doesn't work, I just have to keep pumping when I'm going back to work in three months. So it doesn't really matter. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah.

Deb (36:12)
Well, for sure.

what's the point of trying to get nursing going? Yeah. And they have this clock in their head. They're just counting

down the days. Well, I need to start pumping at this point so that I can get used to it, so that I can have a good supply. And from the first week, we get the questions about when should I start pumping for my freezer stash? And I was like, ooh, let's feed the baby, not the freezer.

Emily Ager (36:29)
Yeah.

Yep. Yes. Yes. Or like,

yeah, let's just focus on that right now. We don't have to be thinking like three months ahead right now. Let's just focus on that. But because there is such a...it is actually a pretty short period of time. Everyone's trying to prepare and, you know, do their best and everything. So they are thinking that far ahead. And it does affect...it does affect your mentality for how much...

Deb (36:46)
Right, right.

Because, yep, so much pressure.

for sure.

Emily Ager (37:01)
how much energy you're willing to put into establishing a good breastfeeding relationship. It's very different whether you have a year off compared to three months off. You're probably going to, if you're in it long term for a whole year, you're gonna be with your baby at home for the whole year, then you're probably gonna put more time and effort and mentally you will have already been on, like, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Deb (37:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah? Yeah?

right and you're so much more relaxed about it. Yeah, you're like what happens happens, you know, man, it's cool. Yeah, you don't have this ticking clock behind you every time you're like, well, this is so hard. Do I even want to put this much energy and effort into it?

Emily Ager (37:29)
So I'm going to... yeah, so different.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so I think that's a big, a really big contributing factor. And then the lack of lactation support.

Deb (37:54)
Yeah, covered. Yeah, because that's a big thing that I see is that, you know, I need a lactation consultant, but they have to take my insurance and it makes it so limited for the support that people really need.

Emily Ager (37:56)
Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

It really does. so my qualification, I can't take Medicaid and that's half of our population, which is awful. It's so wrong that you only get feeding support if you make a certain amount of money, but that's how our healthcare system works. So,

Deb (38:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean...

Right. Yeah.

Emily Ager (38:33)
It just doesn't make sense to me that like, because we know how beneficial breastfeeding is for health outcomes, but our whole health care system doesn't care about prevention. So why would it spend money on preventing childhood diseases and stuff?

Deb (38:38)
Right. Yes.

Right. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (38:48)
So insurance coverage for these services, yes, it's very difficult. Very, very difficult to bill for insurance. It's taken me years to figure this out, and it's still not figured out. ⁓ It's still by far the hardest thing for providers to figure out as a lactation consultant to figure out how to be able to accept insurance is a freaking mountain to climb. ⁓

Deb (38:57)
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Well, and then post-postpartum. Yeah.

It's a nightmare.

Emily Ager (39:14)
but then we're still limited on what we can accept. Yeah. Yes. Right.

Deb (39:15)
Well, and then the postpartum families, they're like trying to navigate this sleep deprived, trying to figure out, and the feeding is not going well, you know, and they're trying to do it within hours, which is like they're on a 24 hour clock. So they're like, when can we actually call? That is this hard thing when it like 4pm rolls around on Friday night and they're like, okay, we really need some help. And then now they have to wait till Monday at eight.

Emily Ager (39:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right, and a lot can happen in two days.

Deb (39:41)
And that's, ⁓ that's like

a month in newborn years. Like, it is so bad. Yeah.

Emily Ager (39:46)
It is! Well, when they're feeding eight to twelve times a day, that's, you

know, twenty-four times, you're reminded that this is extremely difficult or painful, and maybe we should just do something else.

Deb (39:55)
Yeah, and a lot of opportunities

that aren't going well and pain and like milk supplies like not getting established. I mean, there's so much that goes on that even just a couple feedings can feel like a lifetime.

Emily Ager (40:04)
Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah, especially with pain. My gosh.

Deb (40:12)
my god. Yeah.

Emily Ager (40:12)
So yeah,

the lack of access to the services that you need to succeed is another big reason why it's really hard. there's not enough lactation consultants around, and it's also very hard to run a sustainable practice when you can't take insurance. And that takes a couple years to really get up and running. even to be a lactation consultant feels like a barrier for a

Deb (40:18)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Yeah.

Emily Ager (40:41)
of people.

Deb (40:42)
Yeah. yeah. I mean the training that goes into being an IBCLC is like, I've looked into it several times and I'm like, ooh, I get stressed out just looking at the prereqs. Like, wow. Yeah. It's a lot.

Emily Ager (40:48)
Yeah!

Yeah, it's a lot. And to know that you're

not going to be really running a sustainable practice for a few years, you have to kind of have another form of income. yeah.

Deb (41:00)
Yeah, that's tough. Right, while you're building

that business and how do you build that? Well, also running another business or doing your day job.

Emily Ager (41:12)
Great.

Deb (41:12)
Yeah, that can be really tough. And not to mention like the back to work policies, right? Of like the companies, there are some companies in our area that are supportive, but I wouldn't say like pro breastfeeding either. ⁓ And if you don't even have one that's supportive, it makes it so why am I doing this? Why am I like establishing all of this when I go back

Emily Ager (41:19)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Deb (41:38)
to

work, I'm gonna have, you know, I won't even have a break to pump for 10 minutes, you know, which it doesn't take 10 minutes. It takes much longer with, you know, the prep and the setting up and like, you know, it's gotten better, I think with the hands-free pumps where you put them in your bra, you know, a little more discreet, but like, you want to be able to actually like, relax so your milk can come down, and breathe.

Emily Ager (41:44)
Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, happy running around.

Well, yeah, exactly.

Deb (42:08)
Right, right, and on your Zoom call.

Emily Ager (42:09)
So yeah, even sustaining

your supply once you go back to work can be super difficult if you don't have a job where you're like getting, yeah, getting your pump breaks. I think doctors and nurses have probably the hardest time getting the breaks that they need because of the often high acuity of their patients and they can't just walk away whenever they need to. And even if the hospital says they're supportive, it's like, okay, well the lactation pumping room is across the hospital for me. It's gonna take me 10,

Deb (42:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right. Right.

Emily Ager (42:39)
minutes just to get over there who's gonna watch my ICU patient while I'm doing that. It's just so unrealistic. and yes, teachers too.

Deb (42:40)
Right? Yeah.

Right, or teachers, right? Like, well I have classes from, know, elementary

school is probably the worst. They have to assign somebody to come get, you know, you have to tell them what they're doing and it's just like, it's, a lot of moms that are teachers report back to me like, it's just not sustainable. And then, you know, your three to four month old is not sleeping through. I'm sorry. I hate to break it to you. It's not gonna be sleep, I mean there are some unicorn babies I hear are out there. I've seen a few.

Emily Ager (42:53)
Yeah, right.

Yeah.

you

Yeah, apparently,

yeah.

Deb (43:16)
Yeah,

I've seen only a few of them, but usually the problem kids come to me,

Emily Ager (43:18)
It's kind of the cruel reality, like you

go back to work right when your baby goes through a sleep regression.

Deb (43:24)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah, I'm like, ooh, could we like push it off a little bit? No? Okay, well, buckle up.

Emily Ager (43:26)
Yep.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Whoever made that policy clearly has never experienced a four-month sleep regression. Yeah. I know.

Deb (43:35)
They just hate us. I think these people who make these bills just hate us.

it's, I really laugh because then I don't cry. This is coping. Right, this is how I cope for sure. Yeah, so if someone is pregnant right now and listening, they're hoping to nurse and they're just hoping for the best.

Emily Ager (43:46)
Same. This is a coping. I don't think it's funny. This is how I cope. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Deb (44:02)
Would there be any advice that they could do to actually prepare for this journey without feeling overwhelmed by a conversation? What's up against them? But I mean, I think it's good to kind of circle back in and get back to that nursing can be just really wonderful. You know, the first four to six to eight weeks can be tough, but once you get over that little hump, it is so nice. It is so nice.

Emily Ager (44:10)
I know.

Yeah. Yes.

It is

so once you have it figured out, it is by far the easiest way to feed a baby because your milk is always with you. It's always clean. You don't have to wash anything. It's always warm. ⁓ It perfectly adjusts to meet their needs. They regulate the volume of it. ⁓ It changes the components of the milk change as they get older to perfectly meet their needs. You don't have to think about it. It's like you can just mentally

Deb (44:39)
Yeah, it's warm. Yeah.

Yep.

Right. It's so

Emily Ager (44:58)
of clock out and let your body take over

Deb (44:58)
nice. Yes. Yep.

Emily Ager (45:02)
and run the show. I think yeah I think like exclusively pumping and bottle feeding can be really hard in that when if somebody starts out with that as their plan I usually will talk about the logistics of washing pump parts that many times a day. Packing up the milk.

Deb (45:16)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (45:19)
making

sure you have the right volume, wasting milk when your baby doesn't finish bottles. Like really walk through all the logistics because it sounds easier in the beginning. But long term, doing all of those things so many times in a day can be very difficult. ⁓

Deb (45:30)
Right. ⁓ girl. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Ager (45:38)
So yes, breast or chestfeeding in the beginning can be harder, definitely, but once you've got it down, it can be awesome. And just.

logistically the easiest and a really beautiful, wonderful, rewarding experience. I think that we don't... Well, I mean, I've heard both. Some people have said, like, social media has shown me only great things about breastfeeding, so I thought it would be easy. But I've also heard... I've seen everything that could possibly go wrong, so now I'm extremely anxious and terrified of all these possible things that can happen. ⁓ So yeah, in preparation, I think...

Deb (45:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm scared. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Ager (46:18)
⁓ find, figure out who your support people are going to be. Definitely over plan, over prepare and over plan for how much support you're going to need in the beginning. It'd be much better to be turning meals away or turning help away than to be like, my gosh, it's 8 PM. Have I even eaten a seat single meal today?

Deb (46:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Who could I ask? Yeah.

Yes.

Emily Ager (46:44)
So really over prepare, even if you're like, I'll be fine, I'm great at planning, I'll make freezer meals, we don't really need that help. Maybe you won't, but still ask the people. Anybody who you invite to a baby shower is probably gonna be very happy to send you or bring you a meal. Even if they're out of town, they can send you a meal from DoorDash or whatever. ⁓ People wanna help.

Deb (46:55)
right.

Absolutely.

Totally. Yeah. And people want to help. They want to help.

Yes. Yeah. How? Right.

Emily Ager (47:09)
They do, they just need to kind of know what you want or what you need.

So do that mental labor before you have your baby, before you're sleep deprived and taking care of a baby. So over plan for your support system. Find out who your lactation consultant is gonna be after you have your baby. Figure that out ahead of time, because again, it's like the insurance stuff. Everybody, it...

Deb (47:28)
Everyone needs one. Just period.

Emily Ager (47:32)
Or if you

don't end up wanting one or needing one, at least you did the work and send your friends to them when they need help. ⁓

Deb (47:36)
Great, at least you have a name and a face, yeah. Right, yes? Well, and I say,

no matter how you plan on feeding your baby, you're gonna need help. Like, you need at least one time a check-in, even if things are going well, you're gonna have questions.

Emily Ager (47:49)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yes.

Deb (47:54)
always going

to have questions so build it in in the first week at least and then you can just plan outside of that like if you need more great just schedule it then but always plan for at least one visit in that first week.

Emily Ager (47:59)
Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

I agree, especially for your first baby. ⁓ There's so much that happens in that first week. Rapid, it's like rapid changes are happening to your body, into the baby every single day in the first week. So I've never met somebody who didn't have a question. Yeah.

Deb (48:11)
Yeah, for sure.

⁓ my gosh. So much.

Right? Or 42.

Emily Ager (48:24)
Yes. So

know who your support person is going to be, who you're going to call when you need help, but also don't wait until you need help. Like have that, have that, yes. I strongly encourage, like for our practice, we do a hybrid prenatal consult, which is half class and half consult.

Deb (48:27)
Yeah.

Right, just have it set up. Yep.

Emily Ager (48:45)
The class portion is recorded, so everybody gets sent like a recorded PowerPoint presentation, and it's just lactation 101. It's like, here's all the things that you should know. This is what it's gonna look like day to day. Here's how to, like this is what normal pain is like. This is what abnormal pain looks like. This is when to call for help. ⁓ It's just kind of basic information. like 50 minutes of.

Deb (48:52)
Great. Yeah.

Mmm, I love that.

Great.

Emily Ager (49:11)
basic information. A lot of people have said...

that it was the information that they had come across compared to like ⁓ online breastfeeding courses and stuff. ⁓ And then we do a 30 minute consult as well so that you can sit down face to face with us and talk about your specific anxieties, concerns, fears, stories that you've heard, your, any underlying health issues, just kind of your own unique situation. ⁓

Deb (49:18)
Mmm, like a breastfeeding class. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (49:43)
how we can best prepare for that or kind of maybe come up with a plan A and a plan B or something. And then in that consult, I encourage people to...

Deb (49:49)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (49:53)
plan to reach out to us the day they have their baby so that we can get them on our schedule. Whether or not they feel like they need help on that day, just get the appointment because you're going to have questions and even if things are going perfectly, it's helpful to have someone say, things are going perfectly. You're amazing. Keep doing. Yeah, everything's good.

Deb (50:02)
Right. Get it on the schedule. Questions? Yeah.

Reassuring. Yeah. Yeah, everything's good. Yeah, you're like it is

okay Yeah, yeah Right. Well, they don't know what they're looking for, right? So it's like it's so nice to have that extra set of eyeballs to be like No, actually look your baby's doing this and you're you know, I noticed that your milk is coming in. It's great. Okay, good You don't have to worry Yes, and that is worth every penny

Emily Ager (50:19)
Yeah, yeah, because a lot of people don't think that it is, even when it is. ⁓ Exactly. ⁓

Yeah.

Yep, yep. And then you have peace of mind.

Yeah, so having reassurance appointments, it's absolutely a great reason to have an appointment. You don't have to be crying and bleeding and it doesn't have to be this dramatic thing. It can just be, and please don't wait until then, yeah, it can just be like, please tell me I'm doing this right. Yeah, great reason for an appointment. So. ⁓

Deb (50:43)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

ranked. And please don't wait until then.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Emily Ager (51:05)
Know your support system, know your provider, if you can take a class, or if you can take some kind of like a breastfeeding class. There are some books out there, but I feel like most people kind of want to do online stuff these days. ⁓

Deb (51:19)
Yeah, yeah, reading

is hard, Emily. I know I can't, can't, I gotta do something while I'm listening and like, I just absorb it better. Yeah.

Emily Ager (51:24)
just audiobook everything. know.

Same. I would say if you do have any medical underlying health issues, say like hypothyroidism or something.

Deb (51:37)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (51:40)
talk to your provider, whoever is already managing that, and ask them how is providing milk for my baby going to be affected by this? When should I follow up to get my labs redrawn after having my baby get my meds adjusted based on that? I think, yeah, a lot of times if you are,

Deb (51:53)
Great, yes.

Right. Yeah, because it affects, yeah, affects a lot.

Emily Ager (52:04)
medicated for a thyroid issue or PCOS if you're like an antinet formant or something. Those things do need follow-up care, but your provider might not necessarily think to do that because of breastfeeding reasons. They might think like, oh, let's just do six week postpartum and we'll redraw things, but sometimes we need answers sooner than that. So yeah, so that'd be a really good conversation to have.

Deb (52:10)
Mm-hmm.

my God, totally.

Right. Sooner. Yeah. Especially with low milk supply.

Emily Ager (52:31)
I'd also say like try to get your partner involved as much as possible. It's definitely a misconception that

Deb (52:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (52:38)
if you're breastfeeding that like, there's nothing else for me to do as the partner. There's nothing else I can do. You're the one feeding the baby. there's a, yeah. So there's a billion other things that need to happen with the baby. So having your partner involved as much as possible. If they've never cared for a newborn before, taking both of you, but especially if your partner's never taken care of a newborn, have them take a newborn care class, which a lot of hospitals offer. ⁓

Deb (52:43)
Right. Just... Here you go. Baby's crying. Here you go.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Emily Ager (53:08)
⁓

Have them come to the prenatal consult. Go to the lactation class with you or you know, do the virtual one online or whatever. Come to the prenatal consult so that you're not the only one hearing all this information. You are also going to be healing after you have your baby. You're gonna be exhausted. You should not be the only person who has this knowledge in their brain. ⁓

Deb (53:16)
Mm-hmm.

great.

caretaking. Yeah.

Emily Ager (53:34)
Yeah, so getting your partner involved is huge and I think it can be really empowering for them too to have these skills. You know, to not just be like, my gosh, the baby's crying. Be like, I remember that. Like, I can swaddle the baby or give the baby a pacifier or I know how to change the diaper. You know, yeah, exactly. It can take so much pressure off the nursing parent.

Deb (53:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Right, yes, yes, walk around and bounce and yeah, all the things. Yeah, I always say that,

yeah, I was like the nursing parent has magic, magic milk.

But then partner, they're gonna be like the skillful, like have all these coping skills for helping the baby soothe. And I was like, that's your magic. And then the partners are like, oh my gosh, I never thought of it like that. And I was like, once mom's not making magic milk anymore, she's gonna have to look to you and ask you for suggestions on how to soothe your baby. they're like, oh, okay. All proud.

Emily Ager (54:04)
Hmm.

Thank

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

And sometimes the partner is actually really great at soothing a baby, because I call it like they get kind of like milk manic sometimes. Like they're not hungry, but if you're holding them and you have lactating breasts and their face is right next to them, even if they're not hungry, they're just like, ⁓ it's right in front of me. they, yeah.

Deb (54:33)
Yep.

Right.

Mm-hmm. They're just gonna, yeah. Yes, please, yes, please. They can smell it through

your shirt. Yeah, for sure.

Emily Ager (54:50)
They can smell it. And then they're

like, I don't understand. They just never seem full. But then like I give them to my partner who doesn't have breasts, lactating breasts. Yeah. And then they're like, nevermind. Go to sleep. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. You just took them out of the kitchen. So now they can chill out. Yeah.

Deb (54:55)
Yeah.

They're like, hmm, right. That's fine. You're like, uh huh, right? Yeah, and I remember that

with both my kids. My husband would, I'd be like, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do with them. And I hand them off instant, hmm, settling in. And I was like, seriously?

Emily Ager (55:14)
Yeah. Yep. Power down. Mm-hmm.

But it's like also that, yeah, that's their superpower and it's a superpower you can't have because you still have lactating breasts. You can't take them away either.

Deb (55:25)
Absolutely. Yep. Lean into it. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Yep. And you know what? That's okay. We both have our magic, right? So that's why we do these things in community. Yeah.

Emily Ager (55:37)
Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

So yeah, I think the last thing I would say is delete social media.

Deb (55:48)
girl,

preach. Can we preach? Yes. my gosh. huh.

Emily Ager (55:52)
think that's the number one anxiety increaser

of parents, especially for first time parents, is yes, it messes with your brain.

Deb (55:58)
Mm-hmm. Seeing freezer sashes. ⁓ that is a big bummer. And like, my gosh,

these mom, they're like, look, I got five ounces after nursing my baby. And I'm like, that's not normal, guys. That's not normal. Yes. Yeah, and they're like, well, I pump, I nurse my baby and I pump and I get like, you know, half an ounce. Come on. And I was like, that's normal. That's great.

Emily Ager (56:10)
Yeah. That's not normal. You are a hyperlactator. ⁓

Sounds like your baby took everything that you

had.

Deb (56:27)
Yeah, you're feeding your baby, not the pump. This is wonderful.

Emily Ager (56:29)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. So those, even just the images, they get stuck in your brain of like, this is what it's supposed to look like. I'm supposed to be exploding with milk everywhere. And that's just very unrealistic. And usually if that is happening, you're also dealing with engorgement and clogged decks and a lot of pain and having to pump a bajillion times and you're super uncomfortable. So it's not the goal. It's not the goal. I think there's also just a lot of misinformation.

Deb (56:34)
Yes. Yep.

right.

god. It's the worst.

pain.

my gosh, yes. Mm-hmm, yeah.

Emily Ager (56:59)
⁓ Even just it's so hard to weed out what's good information and what's not good information Sometimes I've come across amazing accounts on social media by people professionals that I've learned a ton from but they're like Well qualified to be sharing this information and if you don't know what to look for

Deb (56:59)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Mm-hmm. ⁓

Right.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (57:21)
then you can just get bombarded by some combination of great information and really bad information, usually just are left very confused. Yeah.

Deb (57:26)
Right. Yeah. mean, anybody can make a Canvas slide.

That's what it comes down to. And yeah, you don't know where that information is coming from, for sure. Yeah.

Emily Ager (57:33)
Yeah.

Exactly. So

try to get your information from

Deb (57:42)
Yeah.

Emily Ager (57:43)
either qualified professionals or I mean community too sometimes. Yes, like people who you're in community with who are like they know that you have three other kids or they know that your partner is gonna be deployed two weeks after you have your baby or you know it's like they and they maybe have had experience nursing babies and they can give you that just kind of cheerleader support or like hey have you tried this also like if you're in pain go see

Deb (57:46)
Yeah. And people who know your situation. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay,

Emily Ager (58:13)
somebody to get help.

Deb (58:14)
yeah. Yes, get a professional to look at it for sure. ⁓

Emily Ager (58:17)
Yeah, exactly.

that books, there's a couple websites that are great, great resources that I will refer people to. I'll send people to that have like good evidence-based information while researched. ⁓ But social media targets you so perfectly. It's the algorithms are incredible at how well they can know exactly what you need to hear to get you to spend money or just freak you out enough to.

Deb (58:29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

yeah.

Yeah.

or spiral,

Emily Ager (58:46)
spiral out of control. Yeah.

Deb (58:46)
right? Well, I mean, it really, it zeros in on the things that we're struggling with really, really well. So, and that's the opposite of what we need postpartum, for sure.

Emily Ager (58:53)
Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I sometimes I'll have an entire visit with somebody and the outcome is still delete your social media

Deb (59:05)
Yeah. Well,

and I when I told families that they're like, my God, thank you. That helped me so much because it just took so much stress. Their baby watching their behavior and seeing how yeah, yeah. And that's what it coming back to basics.

Emily Ager (59:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I feel so much more relaxed now. Now I'm looking at my baby. Yes. Now I'm watching my baby's behavior

instead of Googling everything and like trying to find all of the videos that are gonna explain. Just like, no, just turn it off and look at your baby. Usually your instincts are actually really good.

Deb (59:27)
rate.

Just look. Yeah.

Yes, if you calm down the outside sources a lot, a lot of times you can just tell you're like, they look satisfied. I don't need to, you know, weigh them every single time. They look great, you know. So is there anything that you would want an expecting parent to know before they start nursing journey?

Emily Ager (59:41)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I think that there's an element of surrender that is required ⁓ that is particularly difficult for type A people, I have found.

Deb (59:58)
girl. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes,

yes, busy professionals have a tough time with this. Yeah.

Emily Ager (1:00:10)
Yes. Yes. And

normal physiological lactation is so flowy. It's so wooey. I love it too. That's one of the reasons I love it is because I'm not a type A person. So I'm like, this is fun and like fluid and it just, it's very symbiotic and the relationship between the baby and your body is very symbiotic.

Deb (1:00:18)
Woo woo. Yeah. ⁓ I love it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Emily Ager (1:00:36)
does take some trust. It takes some trust and it takes some surrendering to the process. So if that is something that generally in life is difficult for you, you should be aware that that is kind of required if you are going to exclusively breastfeed a baby and that might be something prenatally that you can start doing some mental work around. Yeah.

Deb (1:00:38)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

that we can start working on. yeah. Well, same

in preparation for labor and birth, right? Like there's a lot of those elements as well that we have to surrender to and like let the process do what it needs to do and trust.

Emily Ager (1:01:04)
Yeah. Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah and trust and you know, it is it is a giving of your body that Does require it requires sacrifice sometimes you're laying there nursing your baby and you're like, my gosh I'd so much rather be outside walking or hanging out with my friends or

Deb (1:01:23)
Yeah, it's demanding.

Right? Drinking a glass of

wine right now.

Emily Ager (1:01:32)
Drinking a glass of wine. Yeah, something

that's not just doing the same thing over and over again. And it can be, um, it can be kind of tedious and monotonous at some, and it requires some deep breaths and some just surrendering. Like this is the time of life that I'm in right now. And I'm doing an amazing, beautiful thing by meeting my baby's needs with my body. And my body is freaking incredible that I built this baby from the, from scratch.

Deb (1:01:49)
Mm-hmm.

is important. Yeah.

So crazy. Yeah. Right?

Emily Ager (1:02:01)
Every freaking cell came from my body and now I'm growing

that baby with my body and that is an

Deb (1:02:07)
Yeah, like they're sustained

by your milk. Like that is just mind boggling when you really think about it. Yeah.

Emily Ager (1:02:12)
Yeah.

Yeah, so

it's a really beautiful, very profound, in my mind it's a very, very profound process. ⁓ And there's so many amazing analogies and metaphors in the whole birth and baby process. Mm-hmm, it's life, it's, yeah.

Deb (1:02:25)
Mm-hmm.

Right? Right? And it's so beautiful, but it's also like messy.

you know, and it's hard and demanding.

But it's also like, yeah, leaning into that, this is just a phase of my time with my baby and it's the beginning. So it's hard to zoom out and see that it's just a phase. But if you can really lean into that time, it just makes it so much easier to know that like, yep, this is where we're at right now and it's not forever.

Emily Ager (1:02:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes. And remembering that your baby has no expectation for you. I think a lot of people, a lot of people are like, I just feel so bad. Like, I don't know exactly what they need. I'm like, they don't know what they need. They've never done this before. It's not like they've had moms before that they knew exactly what they needed.

Deb (1:03:05)
⁓

Yes!

Right? Yeah.

Right, you kinda suck, my

last one was better. ⁓

Emily Ager (1:03:23)
Yeah.

That is not what they're thinking. What they're thinking is, I'm so glad my mom's here with me during this difficult time, or my dad's not... Yes. Yeah. I'm so glad my dad's not abandoning me because I'm screaming my head off. They're just happier there with them. They don't have an agenda or a planner for how they think the day is supposed to be, and they're not judging you if you're messing up.

Deb (1:03:26)
rape.

Right? Yeah. And filling my tummy, however that is, you know what I mean? That's it.

Right. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that funny? Right.

Right. And they're also not robots,

right? Like, you know, they read all this information every three hours. They should be feeding. And I'm like, that's not the reality of nursing, you know? It just isn't like, yes, the average. That's an average.

Emily Ager (1:03:53)
and they're not robots.

Yeah.

Right, these are all averages,

Deb (1:04:05)
Right, great. So if your baby

Emily Ager (1:04:06)
yes.

Deb (1:04:07)
eats, you know, and then two hours later is like showing all the signs of wanting to eat it, guess what? You don't wait another hour like and just hold them up. Just feed them like it's fine. And that's good. So I want to wrap up. I want to be respectful of your time. But I...

Emily Ager (1:04:12)
Yeah.

Just, yeah, just get them.

Deb (1:04:26)
just being a birth and postpartum doula, and if there's any professionals listening, is there anything that you would like to say to us as doulas of how we can support these families, whether it's during pregnancy, their birth and labor, or

Emily Ager (1:04:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I just want to say I am so deeply grateful for the doulas that we have in our community. All the time I say, a doula is worth their weight in gold, truly. I've never had someone say, I'm really mad that we got a doula. What a waste of money.

Deb (1:04:57)
right? I really wish we hadn't

what a waste yeah right

Emily Ager (1:05:02)
Really wish we hadn't had that support.

I just feel like...

I wish that every single person could have a doula. And we get tons of referrals from doulas because you are oftentimes the first ones to the scene and are trained or have personal experience to recognize when things aren't normal.

So I think generally the doulas and other perinatal professionals are doing a really great job at recognizing when somebody needs more support. And I think it's important to know when you don't know something, you know? For the vast majority of the time, people refer to us for feeding issues.

Deb (1:05:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

for sure.

Emily Ager (1:05:53)
A small handful of times I've been like, man, I kind of wish that that person had referred for feeding specific support. ⁓ I think one of the hardest things that parents tell me they hear from, isn't just about doulas, this is about any perinatal professional, but just try harder. Just try harder is not a solution. That person's already trying really, really hard.

Deb (1:06:01)
Mm.

as other supports. Yeah.

No, yeah

Yeah, yeah, yeah. your baby or your baby just needs to get stronger. So just triple feed for a month.

Emily Ager (1:06:22)
Right.

Just be very careful, like the advice that you give if you are giving them a suggestion like that. Say, this is what I think you might need to do, but really I think you should probably go see a feeding specialist. ⁓ I wish that, yeah. I wish that doctors would say that. I wish, yeah, I wish pediatricians would say that. I wish OBs would say that. I wish...

Deb (1:06:35)
Reach out. Yeah, because we're not really sure what's going on here. There's something going on here. Yeah.

Emily Ager (1:06:49)
that all the people who come in contact with a birthing baby having parent says, this is what I think is happening, but I think that you should go see a specialist. There's some amazing pediatricians and family med especially, my gosh, I love family med doctors who are so great about saying that this is what I think is happening, but please go see a specialist. ⁓

Deb (1:06:59)
Yeah, I agree.

Yeah.

rate.

Emily Ager (1:07:15)
because there's parents usually are just very confused by the time all the mixes all the Conflicting information that they're getting from lots of people who come out of the gate with so much confidence in what they're saying And it's not their specialty ⁓

Deb (1:07:21)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Emily Ager (1:07:32)
But they say it with so much confidence or they have a really big fancy degree and because they have that then or

Deb (1:07:33)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Emily Ager (1:07:39)
they have certain letters after their name Then the parents are going to default to the person who went to school for the longest amount of time even if this is not their specialty which is really difficult to kind of address that with parents if what we are noticing is Conflicting information from what they've maybe heard already Yeah, it's really hard

Deb (1:07:56)
Girl, oof, yes.

It is very hard when the pediatrician just says, well, just give a formula, it'll be fine. They're great when they're already supplementing. Your baby's gaining weight, so breastfeeding's going fine. And I'm like, hmm, well, is this what you want to do is combo feeding? Then great, cool. But like if you're really wanting to nurse 100 %...

Emily Ager (1:08:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right? Yeah.

Deb (1:08:22)
It's not going fine because you're having to supplement to get the weight where it is, you know, which is great. Great. I'm glad you're doing that. Baby needs to eat. Baby needs to gain weight. Right. However.

Emily Ager (1:08:24)
Exactly. Exactly. Right. The baby needs to grow. That's great. Yes. You

cannot use weight gain as the supporting data for breastfeeding is working if that's not how they're getting fed.

Deb (1:08:37)
as a

It's like, it makes me start

twitching a little bit. just, I'm like, let's walk through this logic. And also like, feeding specialists, you know what I mean? Like, you know, sometimes I have to like, give a little speech about pediatricians, they are there for these really important reasons. And then, this... Amazing! And they...

Emily Ager (1:08:45)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes, they're great at keeping babies alive. I'm so glad they exist.

Deb (1:09:04)
They go through their checklist and we want all of that. However, feeding is not what they are trained or understand and we go to the specialist for that.

Emily Ager (1:09:09)
Yeah.

Yeah, they are

not there to optimize your feeding experience. That is not their job. Right. Yes.

Deb (1:09:18)
Right. Or reach your goals of your feeding experience. Right?

They want baby to grow. And if this is, you know, if this is the plan that you are comfortable with, then great. Then we don't have to go further. But if it's not optimal for you and what your goals are, then specialist.

Emily Ager (1:09:29)
Yeah.

Yeah,

and yes, just be humble enough to say that this is not your specialty. ⁓ I was just speaking at the centering class here, which is like a group prenatal class.

Deb (1:09:40)
Right. Right. Yes.

Mm.

Emily Ager (1:09:51)
And the family med doctor who was in the class, was like, everybody go see a lactation consultant if you're planning to breastfeed. She's like, this is not our specialty. We do not get trained in this in med school. We don't get trained for assessing for tongue ties. We don't get trained for how to support lactation and breastfeeding or latching. she's like, we'll do whatever we can. But also like, this isn't our specialty. We care, but it's

Deb (1:10:00)
Right. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

It's out of their, right.

Emily Ager (1:10:16)
Not our specialty. Yeah.

Deb (1:10:16)
Exactly. And you know, it's like, it's so important to go to the people who this is like all they do. This is all they do. It's helped them with feeding. Yeah. Right. Right. If your baby has a heart problem, your pediatrician will totally get you to the specialist that will help with hearts, right? You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

Emily Ager (1:10:23)
Yeah, that's exactly what she said. She's like, this is all they do all day long. Yeah, so go get help

And refer you the specialist, yeah. Exactly.

So yes, that's what I just like know, know what your specialty is. And if you have some information because of your own experience or a continuing ed class or something that you took that helped you to learn something, great. Share that information and also refer them to a specialist. Yeah. Yeah.

Deb (1:10:44)
Mm-hmm.

And then also, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Wow. So this has been super helpful. Thank you so much. We got through all our questions and I think there are some really good nuggets in there for people to get a lot of help. But it sounds like the takeaway is like, get the help, set up the help, right? Make sure you have the name in the face and also know that you're going to need help. And that's OK. And that's normal. And like.

Emily Ager (1:11:00)
You're so welcome. Yay!

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, even if

it's just reassurance and peace of mind, that is helpful. Yeah.

Deb (1:11:21)
Yeah, that is hopeful. Yeah, perfect.

Perfect. Is there any other any other nuggets you have for us?

Emily Ager (1:11:28)
I so. think only gratitude also for you, Deb, and all the great work that you do. I know I've sent some people to you for sleep support as well. ⁓ it's just so wonderful to have a community that I feel like we all kind of, we know each other. We know who the best people would be to support the families we're working with. And there's just, I feel like there's a lot of trust and that is really beautiful thing that we have in our community. Yeah.

Deb (1:11:29)
Okay.

Yeah. Well, thank you.

⁓ thank you.

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely. And I

love that we can refer back and forth and ⁓ our families, I know that they'll be taken care of well. I mean, I just know that. And that just gives me a lot of peace of mind

well, thank you again for all you do in our community and all the support you give to families. is invaluable. So thank you  Yeah. All right. Have a good day.

Emily Ager (1:12:08)
Yeah. Thanks.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Alright,

you too Deb. Thanks.

Deb (1:12:20)
All right, let's wrap this up because I know someone out there probably needs to feed their baby right now. So here are the big takeaways from today's conversation with Emily. Shame-free, sustainable feeding is the goal because a happy, rested parent is just as important as a fed baby. Combo feeding isn't giving up. It's making a smart, intentional choice that works for your family's reality. Triple feeding forever? No way, Jose. It is a temporary tool, not a lifestyle.

If your plan is running you into the ground, it's time to reassess. Gold standards are great, but bronze can be beautiful. Meeting your goals does not require perfection.

And if your baby isn't here yet, make sure that you set up your support system before your baby arrives. that means finding a lactation consultant near you, maybe over planning your meals and your support in your home and getting your partner involved early. And remember.

feeding your baby is so emotional. It's tied to our survival instincts and surrendering a bit of that control is part of the process. Emily reminded us that the ultimate goal is not just keeping your baby nourished, but making sure you are nourished. And that means physically, mentally, and emotionally. So let's stop obsessing over ounces and start focusing on what's sustainable, joyful, and keeps your baby thriving.

Thank you so much for tuning in and if you love this episode, make sure that you're subscribed so you don't miss the next one and give us a like, send a comment. We love getting comments from listeners and hey, if you have a question, send it over and I would love to do an episode on whatever is on your mind. So,

whether it's milk from you, milk from a bottle, or a little bit of both, I hope that you know that you're doing an amazing job. Have a great week, friends.