20 Years of Full-Time Travel: From Crossroads in Toronto to Wild Encounters and Hard-Earned Lessons with Nora Dunn, "The Professional Hobo" | EP 56

What if living around the world for two decades could actually cost you less than staying in one place?

Back in 2006, when "digital nomad" wasn't in anyone's vocabulary, today’s guest sold everything and hit the road with nothing but a dream to understand how people actually live in different corners of the world. 

Ryan sits down with this OG nomad Nora Dunn also known as the Professional Hobo. After traveling to over 50 countries and spending nearly 20 years on the move, she's sharing the real story behind making this work long-term. 

Chapters:
03:05 – Nora’s Wild Kangaroo Experience
08:15 – New Zealand vs Australia First Impressions
10:58 – Scorpions, Snakes, and Jungle Fears
15:47 – Leeches and Cave Nightmare in Thailand
19:58 – The Origin of the Professional Hobo
22:41 – Life After 12 Years of Nonstop Travel
26:05 – Why Digital Nomads Flock to Bansko
35:29 – Biggest Lessons From 20 Years on the Road

Nora breaks down exactly how she spent less than $25,000 a year while traveling full-time, how much she was able to save on free accommodation, and eventually found her people after 12 years of searching.

Whether you're stuck in the planning phase wondering if you can actually afford this lifestyle, or you're already on the road but feeling pulled in too many directions, this conversation cuts through the Instagram highlights to show you what sustainable nomad life actually looks like. 

By the end you will hear the lessons Nora has learned and wild stories that prove that this lifestyle is so worth it!

Listen and learn how to turn temporary travel into a life that actually works long-term.

Connect with Nora: https://www.theprofessionalhobo.com 

Grab Your FREE Guide - 7 Steps To Launch Your Digital Nomad Journey - https://www.thedigitalnomadcoach.com/

MORE FROM RYAN MELLON :

Join the Digital Nomad Masterclass: https://www.digitalnomadnation.com/masterclass

Connect with Ryan: https://allmylinks.com/thedigitalnomadcoach

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DISCLAIMER:
Listening to stories of beachside zoom calls, mountainside work views, and island-hopping entrepreneurs may cause severe wanderlust and an irresistible urge to turn your laptop into a passport to freedom. Side effects include daydreaming about tropical co-working spaces, working with Ryan to learn how you can start working and traveling and buying a one-way ticket to Bali. Get ready to start living your dream life today!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ryan Mellon: Remember that feeling on the last day of your last vacation? What if you never had to feel that again? 

[00:00:05] Ryan Mellon: Today I sit down with Nora Dunn, the professional hobo, and one of the original digital nomads who's been traveling for nearly 20 years. She left a successful financial planning career in Toronto to prove you could live around the world for under $25,000 a year.

[00:00:20] Ryan Mellon: And she did across six continents. Now she's a speaker, content creator, and YouTube educator with stories that redefine what freedom really means. We [00:00:30] talk about near death encounters, what, 12 years without a home does, to your sense of belonging and how she finally found that again in the most unexpected place.

[00:00:39] Ryan Mellon: It all starts with a wild incident in Australia involving a kangaroo that you won't believe, and it ends with a question, the question. which is the bigger risk chasing the life you want, or betting another decade on the one you have.

[00:00:52] Ryan Mellon: Welcome to Digital No Imagin Nation, where we inspire you and empower you to achieve location independence and live life on your own [00:01:00] terms. Today we have Nora Dunn, AKA, the professional hobo. Welcome Nora.

[00:01:06] Nora Dunn: Hey Ryan, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:08] Ryan Mellon: Yeah. very much looking forward to this conversation. So, tell us the story about the friend you made in Australia. I heard a little bit about this and I wanted to hear the whole story.

[00:01:18] Nora Dunn: No, I was wise that you waited to, I hit record for this one because it is a doozy. so I, I guess if we, this actually goes back to some of my original years of digital nomad ing, which is actually almost 20 years ago. [00:01:30] And, in the initial years of my full-time travels, I didn't have so much of a remote career, as I did a just passion for travel.

[00:01:38] Nora Dunn: And so while I was developing my remote career, I needed to keep my travel expenses low. So one of the ways I did that was I volunteered in trade for free accommodation. Now, this ended up being a super unique and really fantastic way of traveling the world and really more effectively living around the world because I could stay in places that A, I wouldn't be able to afford to stay in anyway.

[00:01:59] Nora Dunn: And I can [00:02:00] stay there for much longer than I would've been able to afford to had I been paying money. So. One of these work trade gigs I was doing was in Australia, and it was just fantastic. I was just this absolute fairytale property. It was 300 hectares in the state of Victoria. and I, it was my whole time in Australia had been charmed, uh, right up until arrival here.

[00:02:22] Nora Dunn: And I arrived at this property and it was just beyond any imagination I had of how cool a place could be. So on my first night there, I'm [00:02:30] wandering around and I see a, I, I'm just, you know, taking pictures and it's wonderful. And there's a kangaroo. I mean, it's just this kangaroo is perfectly placed as if it wants me to take its picture.

[00:02:40] Nora Dunn: It's standing on the road right behind me. I, I take the picture, it's the sunset behind him. He's great. I start getting closer and closer to this kangaroo, trying to get the better angle. And my partner at the time who's with me says, you know, you might. Now, this is the closest we've ever been to kangaroos, and we've been in Australia for six weeks at this point.

[00:02:56] Nora Dunn: They're, he's like, you might not wanna get too close. I don't know. It might react badly. You [00:03:00] know, they have big feet, they could hurt you. And I was like, yeah, no, you're right. You're right. You're right. So off we go. We go back to our accommodation, and we're cooking dinner, and the kitchen door is also glass.

[00:03:10] Nora Dunn: It's also the front door to the house. And I look over and there's a kangaroo, like with its nose pressed against the glass looking at me, and I'm like, this kangaroo, I don't know what this kangaroo's intentions are, but it's, it's like creepy stalkier, stalker, sort of kangaroo like, I'm like, could it just like, I don't [00:03:30] know, punch through the glass and I dunno, punched me to death?

[00:03:32] Nora Dunn: Like I don't know what it's gonna do. So I called the owners of the property and said, so do you have this? There's a very eager, weird looking kangaroo right on our doorstep, or is also a, I have to note this. This property was also an animal sanctuary. So they said, oh, don't worry, that's bracken. He's a kangaroo that we rescued.

[00:03:51] Nora Dunn: We've rehabilitated him to the wild, but every once in a while he likes to come down for a visit. He's okay. Just don't feed him. I'm like, great, no problem. [00:04:00] But for whatever reason, this kangaroo bracken, when he laid eyes on me, he decided I was the one for him. And he literally, for the entire six months that I was there, lived on my doorstep.

[00:04:14] Nora Dunn: Followed me around everywhere I went, like two comical proportions. Like I even have a video of me walking back and forth in front of this glass window. the video was taken from the other side, and you could just see him. I'm literally just walking, turning around and walking, and he is right behind me, following me the whole time.

[00:04:29] Nora Dunn: So [00:04:30] talk about close encounters of the animal kind. the punchline to this story simply is that this kangaroo, sadly, he was an adolescent, and I think he loved me in ways that I'm not sure I could ever reciprocate. So if I ever left any belongings of mine, like a shirt or gloves or something sitting out.

[00:04:47] Nora Dunn: Side, uh, he would make love to it voraciously. I I would have to throw it away afterwards. It was,

[00:04:53] Ryan Mellon: man.

[00:04:54] Nora Dunn: but, uh, yeah, that one of the many experiences that a travel lifestyle has given me that, [00:05:00] I mean, you can't make this up. I mean, there's, I could not have planned for that, but here we are.

[00:05:04] Ryan Mellon: like, uh, actually getting stalked by an animal and, uh, that just, that is completely destroying some of your personal property at the same time.

[00:05:14] Nora Dunn: Like I tell this story to Australian friends of mine and they're like, I don't know how that happened to you, but the last 20 years has been full of those kinds of stories.

[00:05:24] Ryan Mellon: Oh man, that's a good one. I like, I, no one has had an experience like that before on the [00:05:30] podcast, so that's definitely a new one. I love it.

[00:05:32] Nora Dunn: Glad I could deliver.

[00:05:34] Ryan Mellon: how did you like Australia in general? Like other than your having your stalker friend, like what was your experience there? Because Australia's like quite a different place compared, you know, you're from Canada, we're both from North America, but it's uh, quite a different world. So like how did you like Australia overall?

[00:05:51] Nora Dunn: So there's two things that come to mind, with Australia. Uh, first of which is yes, I, it, it does feel and seem so exotic. I mean, it's got, you know, the, [00:06:00] there was more deadly creatures per square inch in Australia than anywhere else in the world. Uh, and, uh, that actually, in fact, uh, when I first arrived, normally when I arrive to a new destination, I ask the locals if there's anything I need to know.

[00:06:13] Nora Dunn: Sometimes it has to do with safety, sometimes it has to do with, you know, just getting around what, whatever it is. It's, you know, is there anything I need to know? So I did this in Australia. Hey, is there anything I need to know? and, uh, they said About what? And I said, well, uh, I mean, you've got things like snakes and [00:06:30] spiders here that I'm not really used to and they can kill me.

[00:06:33] Nora Dunn: And they're like. Snakes and spiders. You're worried about our snakes and spiders. You're from Canada, you have bears. And I'm like, I dunno. I mean, yes we do, but they don't live in my house like it was. But it was, it is so interesting because for them, they just grow up with it. It's just. It's, it's commonplace for them.

[00:06:52] Nora Dunn: Right. So, and interestingly as the, I spent two years on and off in Australia and true, it does become commonplace to a point. [00:07:00] Like I remember walking down a, a path and there was a snake that had moved across it. And I had, enough experience with snakes at that point that I was actually more curious at what kind of snake it was than terrified that it could be the kind that kills me.

[00:07:12] Nora Dunn: So, that was one observation about Australia. The other one is though it wasn't nearly as exotic, I think. I mean, aside from the deadly creatures and you know, the crazy spiders and whatnot, and I do have a good spider story as well. it wasn't, I think I expected it to look like another planet.[00:07:30] 

[00:07:30] Ryan Mellon: Hmm. 

[00:07:30] Nora Dunn: although there are parts of Australia certainly that look other worldly, especially when you get into the red center of it.

[00:07:36] Nora Dunn: The interesting realization that I had, and this was fairly early into my world travels, was that. Nowhere on earth is so unbelievably otherworldly that it doesn't, it's not here, it's not, there was a certain sense of unity that I started to experience of, of everywhere around earth in that there, there are certain commonalities and there are ways in which [00:08:00] not only the landscapes, but also the people.

[00:08:02] Nora Dunn: We share many commonalities despite great distances.and I, and that was my experience of Australia as well. I saw many commonalities between Canadians and Australians when I, when I got there. In terms of, you know, huge tract of land. fairly small pop population. Comparatively. Large portions of the land, of course, are uninhabitable, Australia's hot, Canada's cold, a certain self deprecated sense of humor.

[00:08:26] Nora Dunn: Certain, certain just kind of cultural characteristics that I thought, wow, you know, we're [00:08:30] really the same, ironically. And then I went to New Zealand and went, oh, no, no, no, no. Canadians are more like Kiwis and the relationship between Canada and the United States is very similar to the relationship between New Zealand and Australia in terms of, in terms of population, brain drain, media influence, like so many different ways in which the, the two, countries are related.

[00:08:55] Nora Dunn: And again, you know, similar relations, but on opposite sides of the, of the world.[00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Ryan Mellon: Yeah, no, I've been to both Australia and New Zealand and I will say that New Zealand's way seems to be way more laid back and chill like vibes.

[00:09:09] Nora Dunn: yeah, definitely. I love New Zealand and people ask me what my favorite country of the world is, and I, I usually have a preface for it about, you know, well travel is contextual and you know, it's not about the place, it's more about what you're doing and how you're feeling and who you're with. But that said, New Zealand always makes one of my, my top two country favorite countries.

[00:09:29] Nora Dunn: Yeah, new Zealand's [00:09:30] amazing. Uh, my only complaint is it's, it's expensive, right? But like, it has everything, like, it has mountains and volcanoes and, glaciers and the sea and islands, like, uh, it's, it's just absolutely beautiful. Like, everything about it. and there's like no danger.Yes. Comparatively, it's like another world in that regard, for sure.

[00:09:51] Nora Dunn: Yeah, it's completely different. yeah, I enjoy, I really enjoyed my time in New Zealand. What were you doing when you were there?

[00:09:57] Ryan Mellon: I was backpacking, this was the [00:10:00] beginning of my travels like. Solo travels. I'm gonna say this was 2018. and I was just like taking the bus all over the place to all the hotspots. So, and I did like the heli hiking onto France, Joseph Glacier, which was like one of my top five adventures of all times where you have, you, have you done that?

[00:10:23] Nora Dunn: I didn't do it. No.

[00:10:24] Ryan Mellon: Yeah, so like, it's, so, it's super cool. I am also like an aviation geek, so [00:10:30] like combining the nature and also being the first time in a helicopter being flown up onto a glacier and then hiking, like they give you all the gear, the spikes on your feet and like. Your warm weather gear that you didn't pack for New Zealand.

[00:10:45] Ryan Mellon: 'cause you didn't expect to be hiking a glacier. And then just, uh, making friends with this group of people you, you got outta the chopper with and hot hiked, you know, half a day up the glacier to these amazing views and it's like melting beneath you. [00:11:00] But you could just like take your water bottle on like. Fill it by The melting water was so clean and pure. It was just really cool experience and I thought that was really awesome. but yeah, I spent a couple weeks just hopping around both islands and New Zealand and I really enjoyed it. It was really great experience. I definitely wanna go back, so I'll have to check it out sometime.

[00:11:20] Ryan Mellon: And about the Deadly Animals thing, like, it reminded me also of a story, your story about, I spent a lot of time in Mexico and my ex-partner, would, you know, [00:11:30] we would, we would get like a scorpion in the Airbnb and he would just like. Take a broom and put it right in the dustbin, like the dust pan and throw it out.

[00:11:42] Ryan Mellon: And I'm like freaking out. Like, I cannot deal with this at all. Like, I've never seen such a thing in my entire life. Like, I can't handle this. You know, I, I can't handle all the. Creatures that I've gotten into houses in North America to include snakes. But like [00:12:00] as soon as I saw the scorpion, I was like, I'm out.

[00:12:02] Ryan Mellon: I can't do this. You know? But it's like everyday life down there

[00:12:06] Nora Dunn: It exactly it is. And you remind me. I am. I also have the scorpion thing. I can do a lot of, a lot of creatures but not scorpions. So I was in Costa Rica and and it was the, I mean the little there, I dunno, there are these little scorpions that look very small and harmless. They're okay, but these big ass dark, hairy with the gigantic curly tail scorpions.

[00:12:29] Nora Dunn: Freaked [00:12:30] me out and I was in Costa Rica and I was, I saw one in my room and my, marner at the time was out. He came back, I was in the bed under the net, kind of g gently rocking. And he said, what's wrong? I said, there's the scorpion that disappeared into the corner of the room behind the wardrobe. He said, what do you wanna do?

[00:12:50] Nora Dunn: I said, I'd like to just stay in bed and pretend it didn't happen. He said, I think we need to ask the owner of this guest house where we're staying, what we need to do. So he goes off to the owner, comes back and says, [00:13:00] no, this guy says they breed. We have to get rid of it. And I'm normally very, you know, like I'm, I'm normally pretty courageous with creatures, but this, I don't know what it was.

[00:13:11] Nora Dunn: So while they went in with the broom and the dust pan to do whatever they had to do with this to capture and I think eventually kill this scorpion, I literally stood outside the house on top of a chair because I was so afraid that this scorpion was going to just make a beeline for me. And I dunno what it was [00:13:30] gonna do, but yeah,

[00:13:31] Ryan Mellon: It's just one of those things I think from us in North America that don't have them. Like I think there are some parts in North America that has 'em, but like where I'm from, we definitely didn't see 'em. Like, you only seen them in the movies. Right. And it was never a good situation. So I think that that's where we get our context from.

[00:13:50] Ryan Mellon: So, and then you see it in real life and you're like, oh shit. Like it's a, something terrible's about to go down.

[00:13:56] Nora Dunn: Have you ever seen one of those giant Es and I [00:14:00] and I, by giant, I mean like they're a foot long. They're like purple with orange legs and they're huge. They move extremely quickly and they pack the worst punch that a non venomous creature can pack.

[00:14:16] Ryan Mellon: no. Tell me more.

[00:14:19] Nora Dunn: Evil looking. They're so bad. I got, I got bitten by a centipede twice in my first couple of weeks in Hawaii.

[00:14:28] Nora Dunn: it was another volunteer gig and [00:14:30] I never saw that centipede, because I was led to believe by the reaction that it was just a baby. But that baby centipedes still. Put me up, like I couldn't really walk properly for days. And then at some point later on I saw the full sized granddaddy centipedes in action.

[00:14:48] Nora Dunn: And these guys, I mean, you have to, you and everybody listening really just Google a picture of centipedes and you'll know what I'm talking about. When you see this purple body and these orange legs. I mean, they are just horrendous [00:15:00] looking. Fast forward, oh, I don't know, 10 or so years, and I arrived to the Caribbean Island of Grenada for my first, for a house sitting gig there.

[00:15:09] Nora Dunn: And I wake up in the morning and I go outside where the dog ball, I'm taking care of a dog and the dog water bowl is just outside the front door and there's one of these centipedes floating in the dog bowl. Clearly not alive anymore, but I had to wonder like, is this an almond? Is someone telling me I'm not welcome [00:15:30] here?

[00:15:30] Nora Dunn: Like,

[00:15:31] Ryan Mellon: Oh going on? Luckily I didn't see any more alive when I was in Grenada, but I certainly knew they were around.

[00:15:38] Ryan Mellon: Yeah, that's enough to just have you like, you know, checking all your covers every single night and stuff like that. Right. I think one of, one of the other crazy creatures I saw that we were going, I was in Thailand, in OSA National Park, and so you might have seen it in the pictures if you haven't been there.

[00:15:55] Ryan Mellon: It's like they have these like floating little villages that float on the [00:16:00] lake in the jungle and you can stay. Like literally floating on the lake with your bathrooms right outside, open to the outside and you can jump off the front and go swimming. It's really cool. So like one day we were going hiking through a cave to, to like through the jungle to a cave to do like some splunking in the cave. And, there were leeches, like everywhere, and I absolutely hate leeches. I, it was hot and humid, so I ha I wore [00:16:30] shorts and a t-shirt. IW no one told me, like to like, be prepared for like leeches and like the whole time on the, the hike to the cave. Our guide is like. just letting us know that there could be leches and every two to three minutes someone's like screaming in our group 'cause they have a leach on them and then he comes over and pulls it off and they're bleeding all over the place.

[00:16:52] Ryan Mellon: So the whole time I'm looking at every inch of skin I have like every 30 seconds walking in. To to get to the [00:17:00] cape. And this was like right after that soccer team of like 13 kids had gotten stuck in a cape for like three weeks in Thailand. This was like a year after that had happened and I completely had forgot about this.

[00:17:16] Ryan Mellon: And the guide was like, don't worry, this cave is not the same cave that the kids got stuck in that 

[00:17:23] Ryan Mellon: we're going. Two. And now I'm thinking like, what? Like why did he even have to bring that up? I [00:17:30] totally forgot about that. And then we get to the cave, and once you get in there quite a bit, you start shining your, your like headlamp around.

[00:17:39] Ryan Mellon: There were spiders, like the size of like, I don't know. Like the, it's hard. I'm trying to like, spite. Yeah. Spider's the size of a small dinner plate for the viewers that when you hit them with the, with your headlamp, their eyes light up, glow up like a [00:18:00] cat, like a cat's light eyes at night. And so it was just like.

[00:18:06] Ryan Mellon: The most, like, I'll never do it again.

[00:18:09] Nora Dunn: That was your

[00:18:10] Ryan Mellon: No, no caves or jungles in Thailand again for me. I'm good.

[00:18:16] Nora Dunn: well back to New Zealand. I will say the caves of Omo might be worth your

[00:18:20] Ryan Mellon: Hmm? The glow worm caves, I did do

[00:18:25] Nora Dunn: what makes Glow worms glow?

[00:18:27] Ryan Mellon: Is it their feces or something? [00:18:30] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:30] Nora Dunn: I, as we're all laying reposed looking at this beautiful starry sky, at the end of this amazing caving adventure, our guide decides to tell us that we're looking at a star scape of worm poop.

[00:18:43] Ryan Mellon: At least he told you at the end and not at the beginning. It's like it didn't probably like ruin the, excitement of it.

[00:18:51] Nora Dunn: Oh, if, if, if anything it was, it was the icing on the cake. I mean, it was, it was so funny. And especially the way they told the story. I mean, we just, we were nothing but [00:19:00] amused.

[00:19:00] Ryan Mellon: Yeah, no, I did that. I actually did that experience and that was really cool, like floating through the cave and like there were parts where we had to like do some pretty gnarly, like hiking down like waterfalls to get to the next parts and stop completely dark. It was a, that was a good cave experience in my opinion.

[00:19:20] Nora Dunn: Yeah, it is. It's a good one.

[00:19:22] Ryan Mellon: Yeah, it was good. Well, cool. So like looking at your social media and everything you got going on, you [00:19:30] have like some pretty crazy titles like og, digital Nomad and the Professional Hobo. Like how did we get there? How did we get here?

[00:19:39] Nora Dunn: How did we get there? Well, the, the origin story, such as it is, was, uh, the year was 2006, I guess. and I'd realized I'd hit a crossroads in my life. I was running a financial planning practice in Toronto, Canada. I had achieved a certain amount of success in so doing, but I also had this lifelong dream of traveling the world.

[00:19:58] Nora Dunn: Long-term in a [00:20:00] culturally immersive way. And it was, it really was a lifelong dream because it was born from a moment in childhood where I just became really, really interested in knowing how other children play around the world. I just like wanted to know what games they played. And as I grew up, that dream grew up with me, and I wanted to know how the adults played and you know, where do you shop?

[00:20:18] Nora Dunn: How do you work? What do you eat? What do you talk about around the dinner table? How do people live around the world? I had of course not been able to satisfy this dream or scratch this itch [00:20:30] with vacations because they were perpetually too short. So I knew that in order to really get under the, the surface of any country or culture, I had to really go all in.

[00:20:39] Nora Dunn: I had to be, have the luxury of time and as much time as I wanted to, to travel and to do this. And so I realized I was turning 30 at the time and I was like, okay, well I could put another 30 years into the traditional workforce and wait for retirement. Of course, knowing that the risk could be, I might not be willing or able to travel the way I wanted to in retirement, or I could [00:21:00] do it now.

[00:21:01] Nora Dunn: Now, now was in the prehistoric days of remote work, full-time travel, digital, no medicine. Like it wasn't a thing. People didn't do it. There were no websites, forums, eBooks, online courses, ways for me to connect with other people doing this lifestyle. So, although I'm sure I wasn't the only person in the world to be doing it, it sure felt that way most of the time.

[00:21:20] Nora Dunn: but that was okay because I was just driven, I was driven by this, this north star of living around the world and just experiencing it as best I could. and as [00:21:30] I, you know, it wasn't until probably six months into my travels that I realized, Hey, wait a minute, with a laptop and an internet connection, ding, I could make a living as a freelance writer.

[00:21:40] Nora Dunn: So that was my initial remote career, was developing a, a portfolio and a repertoire as a freelance writer. In the meantime, I did have this thing called a travel blog, but in 2006 and oh seven and oh eight and the all travel blogs were, were really just glorified online journals, and that was mine as well.

[00:21:56] Nora Dunn: It was just a passion project. It was a hobby. It was a way for me to [00:22:00] chronicle my travels and any, you know, my mom basically, or friends to check in and see how I was doing and they could see what I had written.but of course, as the years went by, as we all know, with the dose of hindsight, travel blogging actually became a thing and it, it even turned into an industry.

[00:22:15] Nora Dunn: so as that happened, I became recognized as one of the OG travel bloggers, and then as digital nomadism became popularized, I became recognized as one of the OG digital nomads as well

[00:22:26] Ryan Mellon: I love that. It's awesome. So you've been doing [00:22:30] this almost 20 years now, right? Oh six, 

[00:22:33] Ryan Mellon: yeah. That's amazing. So. you slowing down any, like how has, how has like travel changed? Like from where you started to like what you're doing now?

[00:22:46] Nora Dunn: I am surprised it's the next person to know that I'm still on the road. I'm still going. Like when I started, I literally thought this could just be something I need to get outta my system in six months and just come back to Toronto. but what I've discovered along the way, [00:23:00] and a lot of this is of course.

[00:23:01] Nora Dunn: been enabled by technological advancements along the way. And, the, the pandemic, for better or worse, did really, make huge strides in terms of making remote work, commonplace for many people around the world. And when that happened, more opportunities and ways to live and travel around the world opened up.

[00:23:19] Nora Dunn: So I have discovered along the way, I mean, my life and lifestyle have has changed extraordinarily and many times over in terms of how. I travel and live around the world. for my [00:23:30] first 12 years, I was proverbially homeless. I didn't have an actual home base. I had no place in Canada. my permanent address, permanent residence was my, my mom's address really.

[00:23:41] Nora Dunn: and, but through those many of those years, I did still. Spent a lot of time in certain places. Like I had the base in Australia for two years. I was there two years on and off. I was in New Zealand for nine months. On and off. I was, in the, I was in the Caribbean island of Grenada for two years on and off, Peru, two years on and off, and then [00:24:00] many other countries between three and six months.

[00:24:02] Nora Dunn: So I had that luxury of time to be able to really feel my way around the world. And experience life and, and, around the world in different ways and iterations. But after 12 years, I did hit a breaking point where ironically I'd kind of lost all sense of belonging in the world, and which I thought was like, oh my God, like I've been traveling the world for 12 years to.

[00:24:25] Nora Dunn: Feel connected with everything. And now I feel disconnected from everything. Like it was [00:24:30] not what I had anticipated. So I went back to Toronto to get a base thinking that I was missing a cultural sense of belonging.realized that I had missed the mark in that assumption. and that was, you know, like I, Canada is my people.

[00:24:43] Nora Dunn: Well, no, Canada is not my people. I mean, Canada is not, not my people. But they're not the people that I was looking for. However, along the way, I did decide that I would keep my Toronto base because I do have family here. And, the universe conspired to get me the friends and family deal [00:25:00] on an amazing place that it was so in.

[00:25:01] Nora Dunn: I rent it, but it's so inexpensive that I can afford to keep it and continue to travel. So it was, it was just meant to be in that sense. So I have the space, but have continued to travel for the most of the year, ever since, you know, I mean, I, I was here for the pandemic, but that was, that was. It really, so most of the year, I still am on the road.

[00:25:21] Nora Dunn: a couple of years ago, my lifestyle kind of took another turn in that, I struck up a relationship with someone who lives in Bansko Bulgaria, [00:25:30] and so that gave me the ability to have another base. So my lifestyle now involves having two bases. One in Bansko, Bulgaria, one in Toronto, Canada. And I split my time between these bases.

[00:25:43] Nora Dunn: But then I also spend up to five months of the year still traveling as well.

[00:25:47] Ryan Mellon: That's amazing. Yeah. And Bansko is such cool spot. I just got back from there like, six weeks ago and it was my first time there and I absolutely loved it.

[00:25:57] Nora Dunn: What did you like about it?

[00:25:59] Ryan Mellon: I just [00:26:00] liked the small town vibes. I liked how clean it was, how clean the air was, like it being in the mountains, you know, like, and I also really just loved, the community, the digital nomad community that's there.

[00:26:14] Ryan Mellon: So it was so easy to just connect with so many other travelers, other digital nomads that kind of understand the day to day and what life's like. So like you're all in the same ship type deal. I think that was a big thing for me. It's also for like [00:26:30] Europe, it's quite inexpensive and I thought everywhere I ate.

[00:26:34] Ryan Mellon: Food was amazing. You know, not a super picky eater, but like, I was also like never disappointed with anything I ate there and, and so yeah, I, everything about it was pretty, pretty awesome. Like, the biggest thing I didn't like was that, you know, it's like two plus hours from the airport by car, but that's like my only complaint, like that I can come up with, which is pretty [00:27:00] weak.

[00:27:00] Nora Dunn: It, it is mildly. I mean, it's mildly annoying. Definitely it is an inconvenience, but you're right, it is. For all the other pluses, uh, that Bansko offers, it can be worth the price.

[00:27:10] Ryan Mellon: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's really, such a cool spot. And so like how did, when, when was the first time that you went to Bansko and like, how did you, what was your first 

[00:27:20] Ryan Mellon: impressions? 

[00:27:21] Nora Dunn: I first went to Bansko three or four years ago now, and I went to speak at the, Bansko Nomad Fest Conference there. So this is a, [00:27:30] it's a huge conference for anyone who's not already aware. It draws about 700 digital nomads from around the world. It's a week long conference that is not just kind of conferencey stuff where there are people on stages giving, you know, workshops and keynotes.

[00:27:45] Nora Dunn: But then there's also, co collaborative, Workshops in the afternoons held in the park, there's really, it just turns into, it transforms and it's a, I dunno, Woodstock for digital nomad, shall we say, for that week. So I showed up to, to speak [00:28:00] at the conference, and I. Yeah, I was immediately struck by a number of things.

[00:28:05] Nora Dunn: over the years I've developed maybe a, a tick list, a certain set of criteria that make a place livable for me, and, that includes access to nature.like immediate access to nature, ideally without a car. And Bansko is right in the mountains. You do not need a car to be literally hugging in the mountains.

[00:28:24] Nora Dunn: Uh, but also, again, you don't need a car, even for all the urban conveniences. So it's, it's [00:28:30] also well developed. There's good infrastructure. Uh, the air is clean, the water is clean and drinkable. you can get around without a car. You have easy access to nature. there's an interesting culture to explore.

[00:28:44] Nora Dunn: But there's also an international community presence, which you do get from the digital nomads throughout the year.so I was really intrigued by it. I really enjoyed the vibe, so I returned the next summer as well, again, because the, the, of the conference. [00:29:00] and, but both summer visits, I was very aware that it was a ski town in the off season.

[00:29:07] Nora Dunn: Which is part of why Bankso actually is what it is in terms of, being a digital nomad hotspot. because a, a couple of people, uh, Matteas and Uve, showed up in like 2016, I think, and they showed up to Bansko and they saw opportunity. They said, wow, this is a place that is a ski town in the off season, so it has infrastructure, but that infrastructure is not being used in the summertime.

[00:29:29] Nora Dunn: [00:29:30] And they decided to open a coworking space there. And, and they, through the, got the, the opening of that coworking space and then eventually the development of this conference, they now put Bansko, Bulgaria on the map solidly as a, as a digital nomad destination. there are more coworking spaces per capita in Bansko than anywhere else in the world.

[00:29:51] Nora Dunn: So you can find your people.

[00:29:53] Nora Dunn: which actually is a, just a, a slight tent segue back to what I was saying when I, when I got this place in Toronto and I [00:30:00] realized that Canada wasn't my people, it took me a few years to figure out who my people were and what I was looking for in terms of that sense of belonging.

[00:30:06] Nora Dunn: But one of those, those aspects of the sense of belonging was to be able to have the ability to create a network of friends, who were, who understood my life and lifestyle. And I was able to do that in subsequent years through co-living and co-working spaces. And not all of the time, but enough of the time that I could develop those relationships with people that [00:30:30] could then be forwarded and fostered, throughout the years in other places around the world.

[00:30:36] Nora Dunn: So Bansko is one of these great places to do this. If you're looking at getting into this lifestyle, you show up to Bansko, you will meet a lot of people who could become your people.

[00:30:44] Ryan Mellon: Yeah, a hundred percent. Like you, you're not gonna be lonely in Bansko. The only way you do that is if like you just sit inside and you know. It's don't you work from home and you don't go out. But there's so many resources, like the WhatsApp community, the coworking [00:31:00] spaces, all the events that are happening every single night of the week, Monday through Friday, it doesn't matter.

[00:31:04] Ryan Mellon: There's something going on. So it's so easy to just bump into people, meet people, even if you're just having a drink, a happy hour at appearing or something like that. 

[00:31:12] Ryan Mellon: Like it's just such a diverse crowd. You know? The locals are friendly. Everything, everything's. Great. You know, really, really is, I really enjoyed my time there.

[00:31:23] Ryan Mellon: So you mentioned a couple times that you do like, public speaking and like you were a public speaker at Bansko. So [00:31:30] like what, give us a idea, like what are the type of topics that you usually talk about when you're doing these type of engagements?

[00:31:38] Nora Dunn: Well, it does, I mean, obviously varies according to the event. However, the, my, my signature keynote, that seems to be the, the, the, the speech or some variation of what. I have been in the last few years asked to do around the world is, uh, generally about, how does thrive as a digital nomad? And there are generally, there are three elements to it.

[00:31:59] Nora Dunn: It is, [00:32:00] you know, how to frame travel as a lifestyle and to really work it to your benefit, how to work. Remotely productively, which is, it's, there's a lot of nuance in there. and then the, the real kicker is how to balance the travel, lifestyle and remote work components

[00:32:19] Ryan Mellon: Okay.

[00:32:20] Nora Dunn: that you can not feel like you're constantly being pulled in this game of tug of war between one and the other.

[00:32:26] Nora Dunn: Because although the travel, lifestyle and remote work are obviously [00:32:30] complimentary, they're also opposing forces.

[00:32:32] Ryan Mellon: Yeah. it's something that has, I, I've paid the price for many times over. So in my keynote, I use lots of interesting anecdotes and funny stories to illustrate my journey over the last 20 years on the road, uh, in order to help people, make their own journeys a little bit smoother along the way.

[00:32:48] Ryan Mellon: Okay. I like it. So, uh, with that being, with, keeping that in mind, what would you, what would be some top tips that you would give to, like someone who's thinking about jumping [00:33:00] into this lifestyle but they don't know where to start? what would you say to.

[00:33:04] Nora Dunn: So the, probably the biggest lesson that I learned, over the years as a digital nomad is ironic. It's, it's not even necessarily an actionable tip, but it, it's gold in unto itself, and it is that travel is not a vacation. Until fairly recently, the words travel and vacation were synonymous because the only way that most people traveled was when they were on vacation.

[00:33:24] Nora Dunn: And even though we all know that remote work is now a thing, and that, you know, a travel lifestyle is [00:33:30] not inherently a vacation, people still get into this lifestyle with the subconscious mindset of vacation. And the locals, many of the locals that they interact with along the way are going to view them as vacationers.

[00:33:46] Nora Dunn: And the challenge here is it forces a situation where we expect more of ourselves in terms of our ability to discover and conquer our destinations in a short, like a too short a period of [00:34:00] time as is would be realistic given that you work full-time. And I always encourage people to like, think about a, just a regular week.

[00:34:08] Nora Dunn: Take travel outta the equation. Think about a regular week in your life of working full time. How often, how many times in the course of that week are you gonna go out and do something that would be considered touristy? Either from a perception of like time or money? You're probably only gonna do that two, maybe three times a week.

[00:34:24] Nora Dunn: The rest of the time it's life admin. And that life admin, shopping, cooking, laundry, [00:34:30] Netflix, and chill. Well, at least the first three of those. Shopping, cooking, laundry. When you are in a foreign destination, all of that is going to take you exponentially longer than you could possibly imagine. Because you're in a foreign destination.

[00:34:41] Nora Dunn: You don't know how to do things. You don't know where the things in the supermarket are that you wanna buy or how to buy them. You don't know how to get around. You don't know. So it's great. I'm not complaining. These are fabulous.

[00:34:52] Nora Dunn: Problems of discovery, but people do not budget their time or their energy in order to be able [00:35:00] to, to bridge that gap.

[00:35:01] Ryan Mellon: Yeah, I totally get that. That's a, this is a good, uh, good way to frame the, uh, mindset going in too. You know, it's, you're living your life, but just in a different way. And like how many times during your, uh, Monday through Friday, nine to five, 40 hour work week, are you also getting on planes and like changing time zones and stuff like that.

[00:35:20] Ryan Mellon: So, you know, you. You really gotta think about that. And I think the biggest mistake that a lot of new nomads make is just running through a bunch of countries very fast. You know, [00:35:30] and I, I, I did this, that when I first started as well, and now it's like, you know, I go to a new country, it's a bare minimum, 30 days at, at the lease, you know, usually, unless I'm actually going on a vacation with friends and family that have a.

[00:35:45] Ryan Mellon: Only a week off, and that's it. And that's how we're doing it, you know, but that, that's kind of rare. Usually I'll let them come for the week and I'll still stay for the month. So, yeah, it's, it's very good, uh, good way to frame it and I really like that. [00:36:00] well, tell me, what is one of the biggest lessons learned or biggest mistake that, that you've made while you've been nomad?

[00:36:07] Nora Dunn: I certainly, the, the travel vacation thing really was the biggest lesson I learned, I think because everything kind of stems from there, your pace of travel, your choice of destinations, your, your budget and everything. ironically, maybe another really big discovery, was that full-time travel does not have to be expensive.

[00:36:26] Nora Dunn: So it can be in my first couple ever, the financial planner. In my first couple of years, I [00:36:30] tracked all of my expenses because I was curious to see how much I was spending doing this whole full-time travel thing. And I was shocked to realize I was actually spending less money than I ever did spend to live in one place.

[00:36:41] Nora Dunn: now I'll, I'll throw in a caveat here and say that it depends on the choices you make. So in my initial years of travel, there were two mega things that I did that saved me a lot of money. One of which was I traveled slowly. The fewer planes, trains, and automobiles you're getting on, the less money you'll [00:37:00] spend.

[00:37:00] Nora Dunn: but then also I got my accommodation for free. And I mentioned this at the beginning of our chat that I was doing work trade, that was great in the initial years when I didn't have a demanding remote career. But of course, as my, as my remote career took off, I had less and less time to volunteer.

[00:37:15] Nora Dunn: but then I found other ways that I could get free accommodation through, home exchanges and living on boats and house sitting. and so, and hospitality exchanges like couch surfing if you want some nights here and there. So in my first 10 years of full-time [00:37:30] travel, I saved over a hundred thousand dollars on accommodation expenses alone.

[00:37:34] Ryan Mellon: Oh

[00:37:34] Nora Dunn: And in so doing, I was able to get these great experiences where I could spend, in some cases, months in a place for free living in someone's home, uh, enjoying the comforts of home, just somebody else's home. And really digging deep in, in terms of my ability to discover what it is to, and again, this my lifelong dream.

[00:37:53] Nora Dunn: How do people live around the world? So I could discover how people lived around the world. So that was, I [00:38:00] guess, to. Come around to your question. That was a lesson learned. and this also informed how my blog developed because I was talking about the art of full-time travel. But I was also in those years, uh, in my first 10 years, I tracked and published my annual expenses all in business life, lifestyle, travel, everything, and my income.

[00:38:25] Nora Dunn: As I was developing my remote career to prove that full-time travel could be [00:38:30] financially sustainable. So, and, but the, the, obviously the two, there's three pillars of this concept. One is money in how much money are you making and how are you making it? It could be a remote career, it could be passive income, it could be real estate, whatever it is, money out.

[00:38:45] Nora Dunn: How much money are you spending? and really what that is, is about making conscious. Co choices about how you spend your money so you can balance the money and the money out to sustain the lifestyle for as long as you wish.

[00:38:58] Ryan Mellon: Yeah. Yeah. No, I [00:39:00] think it's a awesome that you put that on the, on your website like every year. So what would you say, like average over the past 10 years? 'cause I know inflation has changed things and stuff like that, but what would you say your typical annual needs to travel the world and live is? Like?

[00:39:21] Ryan Mellon: Do you have a, like a average cost that. About what it takes a year,

[00:39:27] Nora Dunn: So,

[00:39:27] Ryan Mellon: maybe those that are like [00:39:30] curious.

[00:39:30] Nora Dunn: so like I said, my life and lifestyle have has changed extraordinarily over the years. In those initial years, I didn't have a home base. So obviously I saved a lot of money not having to pay for a base that I may or may not have been spending time in. so, the average annual expenditures of my first 10 years on the road was 23 to 25,000 US dollars.

[00:39:56] Ryan Mellon: Okay.

[00:39:57] Nora Dunn: that was all in, that included business [00:40:00] expenses that included, like, there, there was a lot there that did not even have anything to do with travel lifestyle. But again, it, it was in there, in the, in the name of full transparency. Now, not gonna lie, I'm, I'm a little more bougie.

[00:40:12] Nora Dunn: It I don't stay, I don't stay in hostile dorms.

[00:40:16] Nora Dunn: I need a private bathroom. I, you know, so there are certain choices that I make that obviously make my current. Expenditures and lifestyle much more expensive. If we go back to what I was just talking about, the three pillars of financially [00:40:30] sustainable travel, it's okay because I'm also making more money as a content creator so I can, I can increase my expenditures according to my needs, which have included having a base to have a place near my family.

[00:40:45] Nora Dunn: having, uh, you know, the private bathrooms and whatnot. And also, uh, having higher business expenditures because when you make more money, you actually spend money to make money. So there's an element of that. So I don't have current numbers for my [00:41:00] current expenditures, but I will say it's more than 25,000 US dollars.

[00:41:04] Ryan Mellon: well, like it changes over time. Like I agree with you the same way, like I'm not staying in hostels and sharing bathrooms either anymore. Like it's rare if I do stay in a hostel, it's on a rare, it's a rare occasion, and it's a private room with this own bathroom, which. 

[00:41:18] Nora Dunn: Yeah, 

[00:41:19] Ryan Mellon: have gotten a lot more classier than they used to be, like, especially the new ones.

[00:41:24] Ryan Mellon: So that is a rare occasion, but yeah, it could, does get a little bit more expensive. But for example, you're [00:41:30] saying like 23,000 a year. This was, you know, 10 years ago at least, even when I did my one year road trip across the us, like in an RV with some friends, we split. Expenses. I spent just under 20,000 for that year traveling the us, which is, is a very expensive place to travel.

[00:41:48] Ryan Mellon: So, uh, it's like totally doable. You know, it's like you just gotta figure it out, but you gotta decide what's important, what's not, and, and then just like cut out what's not important and make it happen. But it's totally [00:42:00] doable. and you can live, in a lot of places all over the world for half of what.

[00:42:05] Ryan Mellon: to live in the US and Canada, and have the same, and the same lifestyle. You know, like that 5,000 a month lifestyle for 2000 a month. It's like doable in a lot of places like Latin America, Southeast Asia. So it's just, I like to just always point that out to the listeners because, it's so much easier than people think.

[00:42:25] Nora Dunn: Totally.

[00:42:26] Ryan Mellon: I just have a couple rapid fire questions for you.

[00:42:29] Nora Dunn: Let's do it.

[00:42:29] Ryan Mellon: [00:42:30] So are you team checked bags or team carry on.

[00:42:35] Nora Dunn: Carry on all the way baby.

[00:42:37] Ryan Mellon: Awesome. Me too.

[00:42:39] Nora Dunn: I actually traveled for two full, my first, foray into carryon actually was on the back of a breakup.

[00:42:45] Ryan Mellon: Oh.

[00:42:45] Nora Dunn: I was taking, I had my main luggage somewhere, and then I took a side trip with carryon luggage. Uh, and then I never ended up going back to the original place. and I ended up doing two full years with that particular carry-on bag.

[00:42:57] Nora Dunn: And before I had a chance to take it somewhere else and repack [00:43:00] it. But now, yeah, wherever I go, whenever I go, it's carry on.

[00:43:03] Ryan Mellon: Carry on. It's so much easier. Like you get in and out. Like you never, no one's ever losing your shit. If it, if you do lose it, it's on you. Right.

[00:43:12] Nora Dunn: True, and although I do get palpitations if I have to, or I'm requested to check my carry-on bag, I have been known to do so and it always turns out fine.

[00:43:21] Ryan Mellon: Yeah, when they do the gate check, like it's totally different 'cause it's going right down the slide and right onto the plane. Like it's not going through the cold conveyor belt system. It, it's like. [00:43:30] Significantly less likely to get lost at Exactly 

[00:43:33] Ryan Mellon: but, um, all right. So next one. biggest money saving trick or hack that you've learned as a digital nomad?

[00:43:41] Ryan Mellon: I guess we probably already talked

[00:43:43] Nora Dunn: how sitting.

[00:43:44] Ryan Mellon: house sitting. Do, do you have a website like that you use for that?

[00:43:48] Nora Dunn: There are, there's about a dozen different websites that you can use depending on where you want to get a house sitting gig. I actually wrote the book on it, how to Get Free Accommodation around the World. but yeah, no, I, I dunno. Are there any favorites? Obviously Trusted [00:44:00] House sitters is kind of the, the household name for house sitting, but it wouldn't necessarily be the only site that I would look at.

[00:44:06] Nora Dunn: I would look at a few different, if you're in the market for house sitting, look at a few different sites, browse a few listings, and then, because you don't usually have to pay for membership until you've, you know, had a chance to, to see what's out there. Uh, and then yeah, get a membership with the one that resonates for you.

[00:44:22] Ryan Mellon: Cool. best way to make friends in a new city.

[00:44:25] Ryan Mellon: Best way to make friends in a new city. The first thing that I do when I arrive to a new [00:44:30] place is I'll do a walking tour and or a food tour. I'm not necessarily going to make friends there, but I'm definitely gonna get a lay of the land. If I want to befriend digital nomads, I'll go to a co-working space or sign up for a co-living experience.

[00:44:45] Nora Dunn: If I want to befriend locals, I will pursue a hobby that I have. For example, if you play. A sport like pickleball or basketball or whatever it is, go to the local [00:45:00] courts and play a pickup game and you're gonna meet locals. I'm also a Rotarian and Rotary is an international organization that is dedicated to being of a service, you know, around the world.

[00:45:12] Nora Dunn: And I can show up to a rotary meeting anywhere around the world and be welcomed with open arms and meet people that I would never otherwise have an opportunity to meet.

[00:45:20] Ryan Mellon: Hmm, interesting. So I knew about Rotary, but I didn't know it was global. I thought it was just kind of like a, a 

[00:45:26] Nora Dunn: Totally global. Nope. 

[00:45:28] Ryan Mellon: is total Total U [00:45:30] US citizen. thing to say, 

[00:45:32] Nora Dunn: uh, and. 

[00:45:32] Ryan Mellon: so it's a global thing.

[00:45:34] Nora Dunn: It is a global thing and there's now a couple of rotary clubs that are 100% online. So you could actually join the club and become a Rotarian and, you know, collaborate with the members of your club to do good things and do it purely online. So that, helps in terms of digital and LMEd sense obviously takes you away from having to be in a physical place for, uh, a period of time.

[00:45:56] Nora Dunn: Uh, and then, yeah, even if you're not a Rotarian, you can go to a rotary meeting [00:46:00] around the world. so, and, and just say, oh, I was here, I'm visiting. I, I wanted to see what, what you guys are doing. Like, you know, what kind of projects are you guys involved in? And they will happily welcome you.

[00:46:11] Ryan Mellon: that's true. That's a good, that's really good advice. I'll check that out. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. So where can people find you?

[00:46:19] Nora Dunn: So my alter ego is the professional hobo. If you search that, you will find me in a variety of places. I do have a website, uh, I have a YouTube channel. Uh, you can also search [00:46:30] Nora Dunn and you will find me there. YouTube channel is just basic travel tips. My website is a little deeper into, digital nomad lifestyle, but also I love nerding out on travel gear.

[00:46:39] Nora Dunn: So please feel free to, uh, en enjoy, my various adventures in travel gear and luggage and whatnot. if you go to the professional hobo.com/free gift, I do have a checklist of 10 things to do before you travel long term. So that can give you a base of some of the things that we've talked about and a few things we haven't talked about as well.

[00:46:59] Ryan Mellon: Awesome. [00:47:00] Awesome. Well, very good talking with you today. I love the stories and I really appreciate you taking the time, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

[00:47:08] Nora Dunn: Cheers. Thank you, Ryan. 

[00:47:30]