Off To See The Wizard!!!

 On this magical episode, Ken and Andy set off down the Yellow Brick Road in search of the Wizard of Cinema, exploring three enchanting tales inspired by the land of Oz. First, they encounter Lynch/Oz, a documentary that unravels David Lynch’s deep, mysterious connection to the 1939 classic The Wizard of Oz. Next, they dance their way into the vibrant world of The Wiz, where Diana Ross and Michael Jackson reimagine the timeless journey to Emerald City with soulful flair. Finally, the duo ventures behind the curtain of the smash-hit musical Wicked, discovering the untold stories of Oz’s most famous witches. Grab your ruby slippers and join us for this fantastical cinematic adventure! 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Lynch/Oz
• 17:16 The Wiz
• 35:36 Wicked
• 53:32 Wicked Review

Transcript

[music]
Hello everybody and welcome once again to Past Pirate Pay, the movie discussion show
and it was Ken, I am your host alongside my co-host Andy, Andy, how you doing?
Hello!
What's happening today Andy?
Oh not much, we're off to see the wizard.
That's right, that is right.
In honor of the holiday season coming up, we're not going to be watching the Wizard of Oz,
we're going to be talking about things that are connected to the Wizard of Oz.
That's right, Wizard of Oz, Jason.
Yeah, we're doing three Wizard of Oz-esque things.
We're doing 2022's Lynch Oz documentary.
We're doing 1978 The Wiz and the 2024 release of Wicked.
Yeah, so yeah, we're going off to see the Wizard.
Yeah, and I think that in today's political climate, it was kind of nice to just escape
to Oz for a little while.
Oh sure, yeah.
[laughter]
Just get away.
Yeah, there is unfortunately no place like home, but sometimes that's not a good thing,
really.
[laughter]
Yeah, we could use a little more technical or a little
less reality, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so let's get us started.
We're going to be starting off with, like I said, 2022's Lynch Oz, it's a documentary directed
by Alexandra Philippe.
Yeah, this is something that is very near and dear to my heart.
This is a documentary about the obsession that David Lynch has with the original film The
Wizard of Oz.
Andy, how do you feel about David Lynch?
What do you think about him?
So I definitely am not the Lynch fan you are.
I think that some of his stuff is a little weird.
Some of his stuff is weird.
And just unable to be understood, like art pieces, but that being said, I think he does still
have a sensible way of telling stories.
Just interwoven in that is just that Lynch weirdness.
And I like the swings that he takes.
Yeah.
And I like that they keep letting him do it.
Yeah, he does keep taking swings, that is for sure.
And when Twin Peaks came out and it was super popular, I'm like, I can't believe that a
David Lynch thing is this popular.
Yeah, this is a thing like like we were talking about last week, briefly with Roy Clark just
being on he-ha.
Like this is a thing that never ceases to amaze me that back in the era of three television
channels.
There's just millions of people are just turning on one of the three networks and there's
this fucking weird ass David Lynch.
So weird.
And I don't think it was any less weird than anything he's ever done.
No, it's crazy.
Like it was full on David Lynch TV show.
Yeah, the second episode of Twin Peaks is ends with like a 15 minute dream sequence where
there's people talking in weird backwards language, which also became really popular.
Super.
So weird to me.
But yeah, I mean, I love love love Twin Peaks.
It's my favorite television show of all time.
My dog is named Cooper after Kyle McLaughlin's character on Twin Peaks.
I love Twin Peaks.
Yeah, I love David Lynch.
So, yeah, I was really excited to see this Lynch Oz when you told me about it because I had
never heard about it.
Right.
I stumbled upon it looking for Oz movies for us.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's really cool.
I'm so amazed that it exists.
Basically, though, the form this movie takes is six different people talking, basically,
it feels like like essays.
It's like, yeah, it felt like film school to me, right?
It's just like they interview the person and the person, it's just a person talking.
And then the director for leap does this really cool thing where they're putting images onto
the screen that match with what the people are talking about.
Right.
And it's basically movie clips.
Right.
It's clips of it's clips of David Lynch movies or it's clips of David Lynch interviews or
it's clips of clips of other movies, you know, that are kind of touching on what we're talking
about.
Right.
Because it, I thought this, it was about David Lynch and Oz, but it was also about just
the influence that the Wizard of Oz had on all of cinema.
Yep.
And you really think about it.
And this movie made me realize there are movies that came before the Wizard of Oz and
after them.
Yeah.
You know, it's that big of a tent pole.
Yeah, for sure.
It's unbelievable.
And yeah, I, the thing I liked most about this movie was thinking about how the, all the
interconnectedness of the, of these two, these worlds of cinema, you know, where it's just
like, I love thinking about movies.
That's basically my entire life.
And that's all this movie was just a lot of the things.
Yeah.
And that's all the things that people talking about it.
And so the first person to talk is Amy Nicholson, who is my favorite film critic.
Oh, okay.
And so I, I had no idea that she had done anything about it, but she's done several podcasts
that I listened to religiously.
Oh, okay.
And she's just a really great film critic.
She had a podcast long, a long ago called the Canon, where it was her and another film critic
and they were just talking about movies that they really loved and whether or not they should
be inaugurated into the Canon of great movies.
Oh, okay.
And I like, I was introduced to a number of really cool movies that went through that one.
And then later she did, she's currently doing a podcast called unspooled, where it started
off with it's her and you know who Paul Sheer is and the actor, he's like, he's like a, he's
in UCB for a while, he's just a sketch comedy actor.
Okay.
You would definitely know him if you saw him.
Yeah.
But it's the two of them and they started off talking about the AFI's 100 greatest movies
list.
Yeah.
And then once they got through that, they just started talking about other movies and like,
again, we're just like discussing whether or not these movies actually deserve to be the
greatest movies of all time, you know.
And it was cool because I really enjoy thinking about that.
But yeah, so her segment, I thought was fantastic.
Yeah.
And she starts off talking about the similarities between the Wizard of Oz and it's a wonderful
life.
Yeah.
And I love it.
It's a wonderful life.
I know you do too.
And for some reason, somehow this never occurred to me.
Like it, the similarities between those two movies, the plot arc that they both seem to
follow in the same way.
Yeah.
The person is fed up with their life and their little humdrum world.
But then by the end of the movie, they're like, they realize that this thing is actually wonderful
and they love it very much, you know.
And that just never occurred to me.
And it's totally weird that these two giant, ten-pole movies that are such staples of our
society and especially of like, these are the two biggest holiday movies that we have in
this country, basically.
Yeah.
The movies that every single family watches or use to anyway during the holiday season
and they're both so similar and I love both of them and it somehow never occurred to me.
Another thing that I didn't realize and I knew this about it's a wonderful life because
I've done really deep dives into that.
But it wasn't very successful when it came out.
I didn't know that about the Wizard of Oz either.
Yeah.
And the same thing happened with both of them.
The TV rights were cheap because they weren't successful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the networks bought them and just aired them a bunch of times to fill up space.
And they just became juggernaut.
Yeah.
It's really funny.
Yeah.
I guess it's kind of like how the Shawshank Redemption became like the most popular movie of the
last 40 years because TNT bought the rights and just decided to air it like 12 hours a day
every day for years.
And just every single person was able to see it that way.
Yeah.
One thing that I thought was interesting about when they were talking about the Wizard of
Oz is one of the critics or I guess Amy Nicholson's the only critic the other, the other
essayists or whatever are we're all filmmakers.
Talks talking about how for years he had only seen it on TV and he had a black and white TV.
Oh yeah.
Like that's got to be so weird, right?
Yeah.
But for the first, you know, what 30 years after the Wizard of Oz came out, if you were watching
it on TV, the chances are you were watching it on the black and white TV.
And what must that be like, right?
Like how weird must that be?
Like if you've seen that movie a bunch of times at Thanksgiving and then all of a sudden
you watch it on a colored TV and you're like, wait a minute, this movie starts out of
black and white and it goes to color.
That's really weird.
Yeah.
But yeah, I thought that was, I thought that was really cool.
But yeah, I guess I just, I thought it was, it was just a really interesting and thought-provoking
movie.
I thought so too.
So the, have you seen the movie Room 237?
The about the shining.
It's a documentary about the shining.
I have.
Yeah.
It's called Membrane is by his guy named Rodney Archer and he's the director of Room 237.
Okay.
And that's what this movie felt like to me, you know, because that movie is also just people
talking, but you're never seeing the people who are talking.
It's just images of movies that are going on in the background, like that.
And I just think that's a really interesting and cool way to make a documentary, you know?
Yeah.
Whereas just like the movie is totally non-judgmentally just showing you these people's ideas.
And I feel like the director does a great job of putting interesting clips behind what the
people are talking about.
You know, I don't know how I'm curious as to how much input the commenters had on what
images were being shown.
Because sometimes they're talking about, you know, direct things like this is what happens
in Wild at Heart.
And then they show you a clip from Wild at Heart, you know?
And it's just like, I'm sure that the person says, okay, we'll just show this clip from
Wild at Heart, Wild at Heart while I'm talking about it.
But there are a lot of other scenes where it's just like, I wonder how they chose what they
were going to show in the background because they did a really good job with it.
I thought that they did.
Yeah, they did.
You know, it was always exciting to look at.
Yeah.
I really liked it.
I also, man, how they talked about the Wizard of Oz being an American fairy tale.
Yeah.
And it really is.
Yeah.
Like if you think about all of our fairy tales, they're all European.
You know, they're all French or German or the Nordic countries.
You know, they're all based there.
This is ours.
Yeah.
Like it's got a tornado.
Do tornadoes exist anywhere else?
I honestly have no idea.
I've never heard of it.
I've never heard of a tornado destroying Minsk.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
I don't think, I, fuck, I'm just talking out of my ass, but I'm certainly not in Europe.
I wouldn't think just because it's two mountain nights, right?
And too many rivers and stuff like that.
Yeah.
Like we have these wide open prairies, which is the kind of places where I'm surprised
it where the only country that does.
I haven't even heard of it in Mexico and Canada.
Yeah.
I honestly have no idea.
But you're right.
When you think of tornadoes, I mean, maybe that's just our American ethnocentrizo.
It could be, but if there are tornadoes existed at elsewhere, right, we would have heard about
a devastating one that killed a bunch of people in a different country.
Yeah, you certainly would think so.
But I never thought about that until I was watching this movie.
Yeah.
Like a tornado takes her away in this uniquely American.
And I'm like, I guess it is.
Right.
Yeah.
Or else.
Yeah.
So the original, the book, the Wizard of Oz, Elf-Frank Baum, it was a really political book at
the time he wrote it.
Oh, yeah.
Like, because in the, in the, kind of like Allison Wunderland.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So I can't, I'm not exactly sure what the politics were, but I know he was like a, a real
populist at like the turn of the 20th century.
He said some nasty things about Indians.
Well, you know, that was probably what was going on back then with, yeah, just about everybody.
He said, we should probably just kill them all.
We better for them.
But yeah, in the movie, obviously, it's Ruby slippers, but in the book, she had silver slippers
because there was like a big debate going on in the country about whether or not the country
was going to be on the silver standard, like whether the dollar was going to represent
an amount of silver that you could be paid.
Okay.
And I guess I, I can't remember exactly the way it went.
I'm pretty sure we were on the gold standard and bomb wanted to put us on the silver standard
which would make money cheaper, I guess.
So which would be better for farmers and larger number of people.
Uh-huh.
And all of the, the scarecrow and the tin man and the, and the lion, they like all represented
political figures at the time.
Okay.
So it really is an American fairy tale.
Yeah.
But then when they made the movie, they're just like, no, we don't want that.
We're just going to do this.
We're just going to do this technical or candy thing.
Ruby looks better on camera.
Right.
Right.
Right.
So the only problem I have with this movie is when you do a movie like this, we're going
to do this.
Right.
And then you do a movie like this where it's, it's individual voices doing their own individual
things.
Yeah.
The quality of each segment of the movie is only as good as the people who are talking.
Uh-huh.
And I just thought that the last couple of segments were just not nearly as interesting.
Okay.
Um, so the last, the last one in particular, the last segment was by a director and he
had directed the remake of Pete's Dragon.
That's right.
And the green night, and I haven't seen any of these movies.
But I saw the green night.
People love it.
I like to.
I've heard it.
I've heard it's really good.
Yeah.
I like to watch it, but I haven't seen it.
That director seemed way less interested in talking about David Lynch or other movies, but he
wanted to talk about his own stuff, which I thought was really like, I just, I guess maybe
because I haven't seen it and maybe because I was more interested in hearing about David
Lynch.
But when he's just talking about his own stuff, I just, I was kind of like tuning out and
I guess, you know, the movie, he was the last one.
So I was already in the mood to be checked out.
Maybe I don't know.
I just felt like the movie really dragged kind of at the end.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, that's a pretty minor quibble.
Uh, I think it's, I just think that's a function of the movie, right?
And I, I, it may not even be a flaw.
It may just be a feature, right?
Where you're going to have, if you have people talking, some of them are going to be less
interesting to some people than, than the other ones.
Yeah.
And that's just the way it worked for me.
I just was, you think of a John Waters stuff?
I thought it was, I thought it was great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I thought like the way he, uh, the way he talked about Baltimore and he's like,
because, because, you know, there's no place like home and everything like that where he's
like home has this pull that nobody can get away from, which is why I never left Baltimore.
And it's just so weird when you think about John Waters as a person to think that he's
just living in Baltimore for a entire life, right?
Like John Waters in Omar, living, hanging out in the same streets.
But I mean, yeah, it's, uh, yeah.
I thought, I thought he was, he, I thought he was really interesting.
I thought the, the woman filmmaker, um, her name was, uh, Karen Pusama.
I thought her takes were all really interesting also.
Yeah.
She was talking a lot about, uh, doppelgangers and, uh, I like different planes of existence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And obviously that stuff is there in the Wizard of Oz and definitely there in, in David Lynch
movies.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's funny.
It was just, every time people would make a point, it was always like, man, that's really
obvious.
And I wish I had noticed that myself, right?
Yeah.
Like I love Mall Holland Drive.
I, uh, it's, it's, it's my favorite David Lynch movie.
And I just, I think it's like really, really excellent.
And for some reason, again, it just never occurred to me that there's so much of this
Wizard of Oz stuff in it.
And, yeah, you know, to look at that movie as, because there's two distinct halves of that
movie, you know, and there's, there's like the fantasy half and then the reality half.
Yeah.
And just thinking about it, it's like, wow, if you think about this, the first half of this
movie being Oz, it's just really interesting and it makes a hell of a lot of sense.
So I just, yeah, I thought that was really cool.
Yeah.
You know, this does a thing that I think really great documentaries do really well,
which is just present ideas and make you think about things, you know, and it's, yeah,
it's just, it's, it's, uh, it's a really good version of the thing that it is doing.
That's what I, you know, I think it's, it's interesting and yeah, thought provoking and what
else can you ask for?
Yeah.
I thought so too.
Yeah.
So you give, uh, Lynch Oz a pass, pirate or pay, Ken Franco?
Well, for me, Lynch Oz will be a pay.
Yeah.
It'll be okay for me too.
Nice.
Just because like even if you're not a huge David Lynch fan, I think you'll still like it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just because if you're a wizard vass fan at all, exactly.
And, and also like you said, it, it talks about the connection between the wizard vass and
lots of other movies too.
Lots, big, low, bowsky.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Yep.
And yeah.
So I just think if you are a person who really likes movies, um, this movie would be for
you.
So yeah, pay, give them your money.
Absolutely.
All right.
So our second movie today is 1978, the Wiz directed by Sidney Lumet for some reason.
Sidney Lumet.
White is the driven snow, I believe.
Yeah.
He's, uh, he's a very white man and, uh, and, uh, and written for the screen by Joel
Shoemacher, also a very white person.
Uh, it's funny.
When we talked about pretty woman a couple of episodes ago, I meant to make the point that,
uh, because I said that this movie is a fairy tale for women.
Yeah.
But it's directed by old white man, Gary Marshall.
And it's just like, you know what, back in 1989, that's just who gets to make movies.
Yeah.
White dudes get to make movies.
And now here we are again.
We got this, uh, this, this very black stage musical being adapted by a couple of very
old white dudes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, have you, uh, have you ever seen the, the stage show for the Wiz?
Uh, I don't think I have.
Okay.
Cause yeah, I know you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a person first, right?
Yeah.
That existed before the movie.
Yep.
For sure.
And yeah, I don't think I, I don't think I have.
Yeah.
The reason I ask is because I was very curious to get your take about the adaptation of it
because there's really not an awful lot of movie magic happening here.
Uh-huh.
Like it just seems, it looks like stage stuff.
Okay, it just seems like they're, the characters are walking from one stage set to another.
Yeah.
And I think a lot of musicals at that time wanted to recapture stage stuff.
Yeah.
They gave up on that after a while.
And then they just decided to make movies.
Yeah.
Which I think is better.
Yeah.
I mean, if you're making a movie, then making a movie is certainly the way to go.
But like, there are a couple of flourishes like, uh, when Dorothy gets caught up in the tornado
in the, at the beginning of this movie.
Uh-huh.
intervention from Glenda the Good Witch played by Lena Horn by the way. Yeah, and it's got some like
really, really cheesy looking visual effects the tornado and the and like Lena Horn's character picks
her Dorothy up in her hand and like blows her into Oz. Yeah, this looks really weird. So I thought
it was all like stylized. That way though. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Like but like I don't know I didn't
really miss the movieish stuff of it. I thought that the set design of the movie was really cool.
Yeah. So the characters just going from stage set to stage set. Yeah. Wasn't really a problem
for me because I really enjoyed the stage set and it was all New York too. It just looks like New York.
Yeah. It's like fantasy the eyes of this movie is just like a fantasy. Yeah, it looks like it's
dreaming about New York. Yeah, it's yeah. I thought it looked really cool and there's like piles of
garbage everywhere because it's New York in the 70s right? It's just the way it was, you know, graffiti.
Yeah, yeah. So the opening scene, the opening scene in Oz when Dorothy first lands there,
she so she lands it's it's the Wizard of Oz, right? So she kills the Wicked Witch of the East.
Yeah. But in this movie, the Wicked Witch of the East is a parks commissioner and she is
she is all the munchkins are graffiti artists. Yeah. And the parks commissioner has cursed them all
to be like part of graffiti on the walls. Yeah. So once she's dead, all these graffiti people
like peeled themselves off the wall. Yeah, I thought it was super cool. Like I was way into it. I thought
it, I thought it, I thought it's really cool looking. So like you said, we do a lot of musicals
on this show. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of the time I get the sense that I don't like Broadway
musicals. Yeah. And there are a lot of them that I really don't like. And this movie finally
glued me into a reason why I think the Broadway musical song style. Yeah. Somehow seems to exist
generally in a world where rock and roll never happened. Right. Right. Like we just we go from a lot of
them were written before rock and roll did happen. That's true. Like all the Gilbert and Sullivan stuff.
But all the Roger's and Hammerstein stuff. Yeah. But even newer stuff like generally seems to have
that same vibe, right? We're where we're in a world where we go from opera to like opera redder.
And then we just keep going a little bit further away from opera. But still I mean,
what I'm saying is the whitest variety of music of all time. Right. Like the Broadway music is
generally written in a way where black people never happened. We're just like we're not gonna,
we're not gonna allow for the influences. Oh man. River. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly.
That's the black dude. So like once as soon as this movie starts, right, we're in,
you know, Harlem, which is the Kansas of this movie. Yeah. We're at Dorothy's family Thanksgiving.
Uh-huh. And like her family just starts singing. And all of the music in this movie is like
arranged by Quincy Jones. Uh-huh. It was also in it. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. That plays the piano. Yeah.
Yep. Yep. And it's just like, Oh, shit. Like this is the music that I grew up with because I'm
like, I'm a rock and roll kid, right? Like I didn't, I wasn't a musical theater person. Yeah.
You were just a young black child in Long Island. They shit. You know, like I am this white as a
guest, but the white music that I love was stolen from black people. So. Yeah.
So yeah, the mute, like I just, I really, really like the music in this, in this movie. Uh-huh.
And that's what separates it from most musicals for me. Yeah. Like I just, I,
immediately, I'm just like, this is doing the same things that most musicals do that I don't
really like, except when the music is better, I have so much more of a tolerance for it.
Okay. You know, they don't call Broadway the great white way for nothing. That's what I was.
And even those directed and written by white people, yeah. I do feel like this was a very black
movie. Oh, yeah. Like the woman who sings a song who basically does Linda's job in Munchkin land
and tells her to go in the yellow background. Yep. She was like a number running. Yeah. She was in
charge of number running. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Ms. One. Yeah. But she, yeah, she was like, it's like,
for our, for our white listeners, we should describe what number running is. Yeah. So it's, uh,
you pick, you pick three numbers, right? And uh, every day, it's basically a local illegal
lottery. Yeah. Exactly. So every day they draw three, uh, three digits. And in that order,
and if you have those numbers, you win, you win the numbers. Yeah. You split it if you pick the
same number. Yeah. Exactly. However many people get the number. That's how many. And they would just,
they would just go around door to door, say number, then get you give them money and you're in the
local lottery. Yeah. Exactly. So Ms. One, she's got a, she's got an abacus around her neck, but she's
also got a chalkboard. Uh-huh. So when Dorothy's talking about how she wants to get home, she gives
her address, which is a three digit number. And Ms. One writes her address number down. She's like,
okay, that's your number. You want any other numbers? She's like, she's really funny.
And there's a whole lot of things that like are part of the black experience, like especially in New
York, yeah, that you don't get in Wizard of Oz, right? You know, yeah. And I think it's cool that like,
like black people have their own Wizard of Oz. Right. This is, because there's kind of two
Americas, you know, and they probably don't relate a lot to Dorothy and her problems. Right.
You know, but they do relate to this. Yeah. So I thought that was cool. I thought Diana Ross was
really good in it. Um, really good singer. I think she's a really good singer and a really good
dancer, but this movie does fun stuff really well. Like the music that is fun where people are,
you know, like big elaborate dance numbers and stuff like that, that stuff is really good. Yeah.
Whenever it gets like sad or serious, I feel like it doesn't work nearly as well. And I like, Diana
Ross, her range as an actress is kind of, uh, not there. I thought, okay. But yeah, like she's a great
singer. One thing this movie does great is dancing. Like, fuck, I mean, Michael Jackson is the
scarecrow. Yeah. So like, this movie came out in 1978. So it's, it's like the very beginning,
is right after he left the Jackson five. Right. Right before he became massive. It's right before.
And when you watch this movie, it's like, you can tell this guy is going to be a huge star.
The way he did like the floppiness of a scarecrow and still was so Dorothy comes across him and he's
hanging on this pole, uh-huh, because he's a scarecrow. And she lets him down. And for the, for the rest of
the movie, while he's walking and moving around, he's doing this thing where it's like he's learning
how to use his legs. Yeah. But he's also Michael Jackson dancing. Right. So like he's doing a little bit
of both in perfect measure. Yeah. There's a little bit of both of those things. Yeah. And he is
unbelievable in this movie. Yeah. Like just watching him dance. And that's, so that's the thing. And,
and nipsy Russell plays the Tin Man. And he can dance like a motherfucker to me. Yeah. Like just,
why? And he's doing this. And he's the same thing because he's the Tin Man, right? So the movie
starts with him rusted just like just like in the Wizard of Oz. Yeah. And they're oiling him up. And
he's like, unstiffening himself. And, and he's doing it and just watching his body move is so cool.
Like I just, I love it. Like I just, and so the thing that this movie does really well, like I said,
not a lot of movie magic. So much of what works about this movie is just point the camera at these
talented people and let them cook. And it does that so well in in pretty interesting set pieces.
Yeah. For sure. Like you said that earlier. And that's true. Yeah. Like so the scene with the,
where we're introduced to the scarecrow, he's hanging from his pole and there are a bunch of
crows, we just do in crow, you know, make up. Yeah. And they're tormenting him. And they do a song
and dance number. And it's just like super fun to watch. Yeah. And then when he gets down off the
pole and Dorothy has to do chase the crows away. And then they find the yellow brick road and then
they ease on down the road. Yeah. Yeah. All like just cool ass set pieces. Yeah. Like you said,
the cowardly lion is in front of is the statue statue in front of the public library, which is
super cool. Yeah. So that set piece has my favorite bit of stage craft where they're in front of a
new public library. And there's like a walk and don't walk sign, except because ease on down the
road is how they're going. The sign says ease and don't ease. That's kind of kept that shit crack.
And then there's a really good set piece where after we meet all three of Dorothy's companions,
yeah, we they go down into the subway. And then like the subway station comes to life and starts
like menacing them. And is that like when you equate that part with the Wizard of Oz, what is that?
Is that like the forest? I think so. I think it's like when the trees start throwing apples at them.
And like the pillars, those tile pillars. Yeah. So all of the pillars, you know, that hold the floor
of the city. Yeah. They all start coming to life and they just start chasing after all of the
all of our all of our characters. There's some wacky costumes in that part. Oh yeah. There's some
wacky costumes all over this movie. Like there is this like I said, you know, I was thinking of you
while I was watching it because of the practical effects that are being used here. Yeah, where it's
just like what we're doing here is it's kind of like Jim Hensony stuff where it's just like we need
a subway pillar to attack Dorothy. What are we going to do? Well, let's just make a costume. Okay. Let's
do that. You know, and so that kind of stuff is all over the place in this movie. And you know,
I thought it was really cool. So yeah, yeah. And it's weird because it's not like a one to one
adaptation of the Wizard of Oz because like you said, the wicked witch of the West is the one who's
menacing them in the Wizard of Oz for every time they're in kind of some kind of danger is the
wicked witch of the West. But in this one, we don't meet the wicked witch of the West until after
we are actually just the subject of the hit. Yeah. Yeah. So the whiz in this movie, the Wizard of Oz,
he's played by Richard Pryor. Awesome. Just awesome. And like he does great Wizard of Oz, right?
Like the thing about the Wizard of Oz is the character. He's blustery at first because he wants to
intimidate everybody, you know, with a giant fake head and everything. But then once he's revealed,
he's a total stammering coward. Yeah. And I think Richard Pryor plays that so well. He's so funny.
Oh, yeah. He's Richard Pryor. So he's obviously going to be funny. But he's doing a great job.
But yeah, so then once they meet him and discover that he's, you know, he's a fraud because that's
what it is. He's like, well, I can help get you home, but you got to go kill the wicked witch. And so
that's when we are introduced to the wicked witch. And she's a sweatshop owner. Yeah.
And I instead of throwing a water bucket on her, Dorothy is able to kill her by pulling the fire alarm
and then the sprinklers come down. Yeah. And she melts. Yep. So also the poppy scene, I thought was good.
Whereas like a brothel. Yeah. That was really strange, right? Because it's, there's a bunch of,
I mean, prostitutes. I don't know what else it is. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's a brothel.
Yeah. They call it poppy's love perfume company. So the cowardly lion and Dorothy are like seduced
by these prostitutes and their perfume poppy perfume. And they start like, you know, getting
strung out on poppies or whatever this perfume is. And so then, you know, they have to be woken up by
by the Tin Man's tears. Yeah. He starts, because you know, once there is like, oh, no,
are they dead? And then the Tin Man starts crying and his tears are shooting out and they fall
on the cowardly lion and he wakes up. I was like, oh, okay. It's a weird scene. It was very strange.
But, but I still liked it. I definitely liked it too. So yeah, I was enjoying this movie quite a bit,
but this one is another one. I felt like it kind of dragged. Like I understand if you're doing a
Broadway musical, you want to give the people their money worth, money's worth, you know,
right? And Broadway musicals are long. Make them long because you want to, you know, people paying
a lot of money. Yeah. But a movie, you know, sometimes it's good to just get in and out, you know,
you do it in 90 minutes and make it, make it work that way. Yeah. This movie, I feel like after we
meet the wizard and we realize that he's a fraud, the movie really starts to drag. Like the long set
piece with the Wicked Witch of the West in her sweatshop just seemed like it went on for a really
long time. And it just felt like cocaine fuel. Yeah. I'm sure that was a lot of it. I felt like this
movie was doing cocaine at some point. The late 70s, man. I'm sure there were, I mean, Richard
Pryor's in this thing. I'm sure. Just in the air. So they killed the Wicked Witch and then Glinda
shows up and like I said, it's Lena Horn and then she has a song and hand. It just really. Dorothy has
a big exit song, big exit song. And man, like, so that's when that's like the big showcase number,
right? This is when yeah, Diana Ross is like, let me show you what I can do. Yeah. And it's great,
you know, it's cool that she has these pipes and can and can really well like that. But I don't know,
man, I was just like, I was kind of over it. Like I said, the serious parts of this movie just really
worked a lot less for me than the fun stuff. So while we're easing on down the road and and
meeting our new characters, we're meeting the skim scarecrow and the tin man and the lion.
That stuff was so much fun. And I was like, for the first hour of this movie, I was like, this is
the best movie musical I've ever seen. Yeah, I was enjoying it so much. But then my enthusiasm kind
of dimmed a little bit as it as it went on. It's like, okay, all right. We just let's get this over with.
So are you saying Ken that it's about the journey and not the destination? Exactly.
Like I said, I just I feel like if this movie had been shorter, I would have liked it a lot more,
but I still feel like the stuff that was in there, the the first, I don't know, two-thirds
of the movie were so like fun and alive that yeah, really most of it just really worked for me.
Yeah, yeah. That is a shocking, I have to say. Yeah, I did not expect that for me. And I was
watching as I go, oh man, and it's going to really hate this. Yeah, I was digging it. You know,
I'd seen it before. Yeah. One thing I did find a little kind of borderline racist,
okay? Was the motorcycle drivers? Oh, the flying monkey guys weird. I think they were puppets.
Yeah. They look like overcharacterizations of black people. Yeah. As puppets, did you get that at all?
Yeah, I get to see what you're saying. Yeah, because they have like really exaggerated like noses and
lips and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I don't know. But I'm guessing if it's like,
it's looped in with all of this, it's probably part of the culture that I don't know about.
Right. Yeah, I don't know. Because like I, I, I, I, again, I'm talking out of my ass,
that I don't really know what I know, even though the movie is, is created by white people,
I'm pretty sure the stage show is black people, right? It's like, I don't know. I, I just assumed that
because Quincy Jones is doing all the music and because, you know, it's, it's, I don't think
when the news was involved in the stage show, was he? I don't know. I think he was. I think he was
involved in like rearranging stuff for the movie. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. But there's so many like
iconic black celebrities of the time that are in this movie. Yeah, there is. But I just can't
imagine that I don't know that they wouldn't have had at least some creative input on it. I don't
know. Yeah, I, I, I don't know how that would get past everybody there. Right. You know? Yeah.
But it was just, I just found it a little like weird. So is that it, Ken? Yeah, I guess that's,
I guess that's it. All right. So I'm very curious now because I'm not sure what this is going to be.
Is it a past pirate pay for you, Ken? So the whiz is for me a pay. Oh, wow. That is correct.
Yeah. I, like I said, turns out if musicals have good music and good dancing,
that is a good way to make a good musical. That's what I think. All right. Yeah. All right.
Bull. Totally on board. I'm gonna pay as well. I guess. Sure.
So our third and final movie this week is 2024's wicked, which is directed by John M. Choo.
He also did the crazy rich, rich Asians. So he's, yeah, he's like the go to giant blockbuster director
now, I guess. I guess so. I have not seen crazy rich agent rich Asians. I haven't done either.
It made a ton of money. It did. I'm good. I really like it. Yeah. Great. Absolutely. All Asian cast. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. I think it probably broke open the doors for everything everywhere all at once.
Wow. I certainly hope so. I think, I think Michelle, you always actually in crazy
rich Asians also. So that really, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So wicked. So have you seen this stage musical?
I have twice. Okay. The first time I saw wicked, I didn't like it very much. And it was on Broadway.
It had been out for a number of years. And before I saw that, like the same week, actually like a two
days later, I saw the previews of Book of Mormon. Okay. And Book of Mormon was like the hottest ticket in
town. Yeah. And I'd got tickets way before it ever opened for previews. And it, I laughed so hard
in that musical. Oh, yeah. I was laughing because I was in New York. And I was laughing at jokes
that a lot of people didn't get really because there's not a lot of Mormons in New York.
Oh, yeah. You know, and there would be real Mormon jokes. And I grew up around Mormons my whole life.
Yeah. And I would get the jokes in laughing. They'd look at me like I was some kind of idiot.
Weird. The first act of the Book of Mormon when I saw it, I saw it out here at the Smith Center.
Uh-huh. And I don't think I've ever laughed as hard in my entire life. Like I was crying from
laughing so hard. It was, it was unbelievable. Yeah. And when I'm seeing it in previews, because a lot of
times like if you're seeing it at the Smith Center, you've heard songs from it. No, I totally avoided.
I was able to avoid that. That's good. Yeah. That's good. We got the best way to see it for sure.
Because that's how I saw it. And it was just just staggeringly fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Before I went and saw one of the people I went and saw it with had the soundtrack and he was like
listening to it constantly. Uh-huh. And he's like, oh, you should listen to this. I'm, no, I want to see
the show first. And I was right. Yeah. Cause it was so funny. Yeah. So I saw that. And then I saw
wicked. And by this time, wicked is kind of tired. Yeah. It's been on Broadway for like 10 years. Yeah.
And I was and it was just like, it's okay. It's fine. Yeah. So that was my experience with wicked. Yeah.
The first time I saw it. I saw it again at the Smith Center and I liked it a lot more. Okay.
So yeah. So I have not seen this stage show. And uh, I saw the trailers for this movie.
We've been seeing this trailer for this movie for months and months now. And you know, before I
became aware that we were going to do it for the show. The thing I would think whenever I saw
the trailers was boy, really can't wait to not see that movie. Cause to me, the trailers just
did not look good at all. I think they look good. Yeah. I was just super not interested. And uh,
so is the stage show like six hours long by any chance? I think it's pretty long. Yeah. Cause like,
it's not six. Cause like, they don't tell you in the trailers for this movie that this is not wicked.
This is wicked part one. Right. This is just act one. This is act one because they end on defying
gravity. Gravity. Yeah. Which is the end of act one. Yeah. So like, and this movie is two and a
half hours long. Yeah. Like how the hell long is this stage show that we're the first act is
usually longer than the second. Yeah. So like I said, I was primed to not like this movie. I really
was not, I didn't think I was going to like it. And the beginning of this movie, I thought dragged
a lot like the first, I don't know, 45 minutes or so. Uh-huh. I'm a little ashamed to admit to our
podcast listeners. I know I'm supposed to be here for y'all, but I did fall asleep a little bit.
I was like, I just, I don't know. It just did not grant my attention. So everything up until
they get to the university, I thought was just kind of not, I don't know, didn't really do anything
for me. I thought it was kind of dragging. Okay. But eventually I start watching what I really started
to notice about this movie was Ariana Grande as go as go Linda Glinda, whatever you call her.
And I'm an old man. I don't know anything about anything. I have no experience with Ariana
Grande at all. Uh-huh. So I know is has she ever been in anything? Is she ever acted in anything?
Is she a Disney kid? She was. Yeah. So she is an actor. Yeah. Uh-huh. But so I was actually surprised.
Of the most superficial variety. Yeah. So I was surprised, pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed
the shit that she was doing as Glinda. Yeah. Like she's really fun. Yeah. She like Glinda, the character
is a really, I'm sure a really fun character to play because she's like a super self-absorbed
asshole basically. And I'm sure that just it should be a lot of fun to play. And like Ariana
Grande is having a blast with it. And she's really good. Like I thought that I, I, I was really into
her character. I thought she was like super fun. And then Cynthia Rivo as Elfaba not nearly as much fun.
But man, that woman can sing holy shit. Yeah. Like she can absolutely well. She's, she's got some great
pipes. Yeah. Everything I've seen here and I've loved musically and acting wise. I've loved. Yeah. Yeah.
I, I don't know. I love her voice. I really do. I think she, she sings really, really well. Uh-huh.
As an actor, I don't know. I'm, I haven't, I don't dislike her, but I haven't really been
impressed that much with anything other than her voice, I think. Okay. But yeah, the, I feel like the,
the chemistry between those two characters and those two actors is really enjoyable.
Yeah. That kind of is what brought me back into the movie. Yeah. Because I would watch it and there
was like, a scene would start and it would just be like a big giant set piece with a ton of people.
And a whole bunch of crazy CGI. Yeah. And I'd be kind of like, I was like a Nickelodeon movie man.
Like this is getting real silly. Yeah. And then a scene would happen between those two
and it would draw me back in. Yeah. You know, I feel like for me, the movie really picks up when, uh,
the dude shows up, the prince guy who is another obnoxious self-absorbed asshole. Yeah.
His first song is called Dancing Through Life. And it's just like an old to being a person who doesn't
have to give a shit about anyone or anything. And like, and it's, it's like a lot, it's a fun song.
And he's like just walking around and every single person who interacts with him is like falling in love
with him. So I thought, you know, and he's really a fun charming asshole. Yeah. So I thought he was really
good too. And then when he and Linda, when he and Ariana Grande get together, like they start doing
some really fun stuff. Yeah. And then he starts having chemistry with Elfibo with Cynthia Rebo also.
And I think they're really good together. So that's when the movie really starts to pick up for me.
And then they have this like ball at some ballroom that nobody's supposed to be allowed to go into. Yeah.
And after that ball, Glinda and Elfibo become friends, right? Because Elfibo suggested to Madam
Morrible, I think her name is, uh, the Michelle Yo, yeah. Uh, she suggested that she study with her.
And that's something Linda's always wanted. Right. Right. So it's like because Glinda had talked
some guy into asking Elfibo's sister to this ball, right? So she was kind first and then so they do
these favors for each other and then it starts out they loathe the song about how they loathe each other.
Exactly. And then they, but then they become friends and they do this whole number about how
Glinda is going to make Elfibo popular. She's going to teach her how to be like this.
One of those showstoppers. And it's great. That number was so much fun. Yeah. It is. So that little
section of the movie I thought was like I was so into it for that like little chunk in the middle
of the movie. I thought it was just fantastic. Yeah. You know, and yeah, like I'm sure that's the thing
that people get out of Broadway musicals, right? Where you get swept up into it. And for a little
while I was just totally swept up into it, I thought, uh, you know, I thought it was really cool. Yeah.
So I am of two minds about a lot of the stuff in this movie. Like you said, uh, about the CGI and
the like really cheesy feel to it. Yeah. I feel like the actors are playing this very well.
Like the movie is really whimsical. And I think the actors are playing it really well. And also the
like set design and the costumes, all that stuff is really good. Yeah. And it does a really good job.
So in, uh, in Lynch, Oz, John Waters is talking about Glinda and he at one point he says that
she dresses like she went insane on her way to the prom. And so and all of Glinda's costumes in this movie
look exactly like that. I thought it was so, I thought it was so fitting. Um, but yeah, the costumes
are really cool. Like Elfaba wears these really cool glasses in the movie. And uh, Bowen Yang's
character. He's also got these super cool looking glasses. Yeah. Just the, all of the physical stuff in
this movie looks really cool. Yeah. And then I saw some making of it and a lot of those sets were
huge practical sets. Yeah. Like during the popular number, there's a bunch of stuff where all of
Glinda's like drawers and, and, and cases of trunks are popping open and all of the dresses are like
popping up and, and transformers. Yeah. Yeah. And it just looks really cool. But then on the other hand,
this movie has a psychotic amount of CGI. And especially in the Emerald City and bad CGI, I think.
I think it's bad. I think it's too much. I just think it's, I don't, I don't think it's necessarily bad.
I think it looks like shit kind of like I get major Harry Potter vibes coming off of this movie. Yeah.
It everything looks like the university looks like Hogwarts. Yeah. It just, it just seems like, I guess
it makes sense because for generations of people younger than us, when you think of witches and wizards,
that's what we think that's what it's got. Harry Potter just gonna be some of that. That's what that
means in there. Yeah. So it just, it just kind of looks like that. And I don't know. It just, it,
it all looks so cheap to me. Spoiler warning. Wicked spoilers ahead. Skip to the next chapter or
minute marker, 53 minutes and 30 seconds to hear the verdict. You have been warned. So like you said,
the movie ends with defying gravity. And it's supposed to be this like massive moment in the show,
where the whole movie, Elphaba is like she has these powers, but she doesn't know how to control them.
Right. So this is the moment where she becomes the wicked witch, right? She becomes this powerful
being. Also, there's a reason she becomes a wicked witch. Like she finds out that this, this thing that
has existed, the wizard, yeah. And the Emerald City and all this. Yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of this
fascist arm to control. Right. Exactly. And there's a whole thing about animal rights in there that,
you know, I thought I as a political message, I certainly appreciated it, but also it fits into
the plot. Yeah. A lot of that fits into the plot. Like this is a spoiler alert for the next one. Yeah.
They are setting up the next movie. And I'm going to spoil some things for you here. Do it.
Remember the lion cub they rescue when they're in the thing. He becomes a carry the lion. Oh,
okay. Talk. Interesting. Because he's been taken away from this. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And the Peter
Dingo Lidge goat. He can't anymore. Yeah. Right. So that's why the cowardly lion can talk. Oh, okay.
Um, Nessa Rose in the wheelchair becomes the wicked witch of the East. That makes sense because
it is her sister. Right. Boc, the guy who asked her to prom, uh-huh, becomes a 10 man. Okay.
And the handsome dashing fiero is it? Yeah. Fiero becomes the scarecrow. Is that right? Yeah.
Oh, shit. I had no idea. I think the wicked witch gets pissed and curses them all. Oh, wow.
Or some reason. Interesting. I think if I remember right. Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea about any of that.
So this is how they are turning the story on its ear, which is one thing I really like about
things like this. Yeah. Like when you take a popular piece of, you know, whatever. Yeah.
And you look at it from a different angle. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Like Rosen,
Kranson, Gilden, Stern, or dead or Coborki. Yeah. Coborki. That is what I was thinking about when
I was watching this. This feels like alpha buzz. The wicked witch is just Johnny and Coborki. Right.
Even though, even though wicked came out before Coborki, that's the way my brain works. Right.
So, but I really like how they, when you take it from a different angle, turn the good guy into the
bad guy, give them their own motivations and reasons and make it compelling. I think that's really cool.
Yeah. I agree. I agree. But yeah. So like I said about the about the fine gravity where it's uh-
so did you not like defying gravity? I think it's a really good musical song. It's a really good song
for a musical. And again, it's a great, it's the same thing as the last song in the Wiz where it's just
this song is a showcase for our, for our lead. Yeah. And as a showcase for, for what Cynthia
Orivo can do as a singer, it's fantastic. Yeah. So the number for me, like the big, huge moment is
supposed to be when she gets on the broom and starts flying around. Yeah. And that's supposed to
be this magical thing that happens. Yeah. But it's just done with this crappy looking CGI that I just
can't, I thought I thought the whole final number was really good. I couldn't get into look if it was good.
I thought I thought when she's so the way they do the effect in the stage show. Yeah. Is she stands on
some sort of brain. Uh-huh. And it lifts her up, but her cape, like is covering the crane. Yeah.
So the cape becomes really big and elongated. Uh-huh. And they kind of paid homage to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
She does have the long cape. Yeah. And her cape kind of became big and crazy and flowing. Yeah. And it
kind of looked like the music. And I thought all of this is cool. No, it just, it just looks like
shitty CGI to me. And so it's like, I'm supposed to be swept up in the majesty of this moment. And all I
could think of is this looks like a video game on a PS3. Like it's just looks shit to me. And I, like,
I would love to see this, I would love to see this crane shit that you're talking about to see it
on the stage. Yeah. Because I would, I feel like that would feel so much more magical than this felt
like there's no magic in this at all to me. Cause CGI is so, is so everywhere now. Yeah.
And this isn't even good CGI. I don't think it's so it's just like, I'm not swept up in the magic
of this moment. And I, and that's the whole point of this scene. This is just like you said, it's
the end of that one. I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I
fucked up in it. I thought that the, the interactions between Glenda and her, like right before
she does all the flying stuff was really great. Yeah. And the music is really good. I liked it a lot more
than I thought I was gonna. Yeah. Sounds like you liked it a lot more than you thought. I definitely liked
it a lot more than I thought I was going to also. Yeah. I don't know. The, the Glenda stuff I liked,
I, I really enjoyed the relationship between the two of them. That's my, that's the best part of
the movie for me. It is. And so it is that stuff in defying gravity. I thought was really good. But
I don't, I don't know, man, the overreliance on CGI and like everything outside of the performances,
I feel like is designed to impress five-year-olds. Like there's just like it's this movie. Maybe.
It just, it doesn't seem like it has a lot of respect for the audience. I don't know. I don't know.
I was, I was really bummed out by the ending because I wanted to like it a lot more. The movie got me.
It, I didn't think it was gonna get me and then it got me and then and then once it got me,
it lost me and that made it more disappointing for me. Yeah. What do you think of Jeff Goldblum?
I thought he was great. Same thing I was saying about about Richard Pryor is the, is the same thing I
would say about him as a wizard. The thing, the thing where when they first meet him, he takes the
gold coin and pulls it out of behind the elf. Elphab is ear like this shitty little magic trick. That thing
was, that, that made me really laugh and he's a really good, bumbling non wizard, right? Because the
wizard of us, his whole thing is that he's a fraud. And what I like about this is that they kind of figure,
they do figure out he's a fraud, but he, it's before everybody figures out he's a fraud. Yeah, exactly.
So he's still kind of got the con man vibe. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And Michelle Yo, she's like helping
him out and they're like, so they're, they're keeping the con going. And that's what they're recruiting
Elphabuck is like, they want to, yeah, she's definitely the Steve Bannon to the wizard. Right.
Trump. Right. But yeah, so that's Elphabuck actually has powers. So that's why they're also interested
in her and why they're also scared and terrified. Yeah. Exactly. Now that she's got the book. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah. I just like how like we're looking at this from a different angle, you know, and
we're seeing it through the prism of the, of the witch. Yeah. Or the witch is. Yeah. I like I said,
I, I'm, I'm, I definitely liked it more than I thought I was going to. I, I, I am not sorry that
I saw it. So that's a big surprise. Yeah. Like will you, will you see act two? I will actually. I
think I, I, yeah, I'm, the movie did enough to make me curious. Well, I guess you already told me how it
ends, but I didn't tell you how it ends. We all know how it ends. Right. Right. But yeah, I wonder if
they explained how she became allergic to water. I don't know. Like I don't know, but they, they,
they, they foreshadowed it a bit. When was that? Oh, with the outside of the sun's running. And yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly. But you would think that as far as Elphabuck's
life is gone. Yeah. She would have had to do it have figured out her at some point. But water is
real bad. Yeah. Right. And she's like dancing around in these stones during a number. Like, so maybe
there, maybe there's something with the water that's, maybe it's not as bad as we think. Right.
I don't know. Better than I expected to be sure. Yeah. And yeah, I'm curious enough to go see
the second one. So can on our, on our trip to the land of Oz for wicked. Uh-huh. Is it a past,
pirate or pay? Yeah. So, so I'll get to that in just a second. Okay. This one has an explanation.
Okay. My rating has an explanation. All right. When I was going to see this, I was thinking to myself,
man, if I like this movie a little, it's going to be weird for me to say that it's pirate because
I would imagine that the thing that I'm going to like the most about it is the spectacle. So seeing
it on the big screen would be the important thing. Yeah. But it turns out that wasn't the case.
Because the spectacle stuff was the stuff I hated the most. So if, so this movie is firmly in the
pirate category for me. Uh-huh. And so if you want to watch this movie at home and not pay for it,
I 100% support that. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. People are not doing that. I guess that is just a
juggernaut. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Uh-huh. And I'm glad. I'm glad movies had a juggernaut. I like it when
movies are popular for sure. Yeah. For sure. And just a reminder, next week will be part one of our
Christmas specials. We'll be doing the better than G Lee treatment to the new action Christmas
movie starring DeWayne the Rock Johnson Red one. Then we'll go over our top three Christmas movies
of all time. See you then. Thanks for tuning in to Pass Pirate Pay. This episode was produced by the
one and only Andy Morris. If you haven't already, hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast app.
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