{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":0.83,"endTime":5.77,"body":"Welcome to RPG Blokes. Today's episode is something special for us,"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":5.93,"endTime":9.65,"body":"because we're talking about one of the games that shaped our early years,"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":9.89,"endTime":13.21,"body":"and that we still continue to play today, Dragon Warriors."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":13.51,"endTime":17.01,"body":"You may have heard us mention it once or twice. We started playing it when it"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":17.01,"endTime":20.91,"body":"first came out about 40 years ago, and it's largely the same now as back then."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":20.91,"endTime":22.27,"body":"Now, that's good value for money."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":22.69,"endTime":26.85,"body":"And also, Stephen and myself, we introduced our children to the game,"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":27.05,"endTime":32.57,"body":"the hobby using Dragon Warriors, helped by John here, who DM'd for a good three"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":32.57,"endTime":33.63,"body":"or four years, wasn't it, John?"},{"speaker":"Jon","startTime":34.15,"endTime":34.79,"body":"I think."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":35.21,"endTime":35.55,"body":"Five."},{"speaker":"Jon","startTime":35.83,"endTime":36.05,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":36.23,"endTime":37.73,"body":"Yep. We're in a debt, mate."},{"speaker":"Jon","startTime":37.81,"endTime":40.69,"body":"I had hair, and it wasn't all gray, but when I started."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":41.49,"endTime":44.51,"body":"And Barry, our newest member, has a good go at this system, haven't you,"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":44.59,"endTime":46.51,"body":"Barry? You've played two campaigns over the years?"},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":47.11,"endTime":50.29,"body":"Yeah, one not particularly long campaign. One was really short and one medium"},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":50.29,"endTime":54.27,"body":"campaign, but yes, and I can remember every detail flawlessly."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":54.69,"endTime":58.09,"body":"Okay. And Stephen, we grew up together with the game and we bought it together"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":58.09,"endTime":59.25,"body":"as kids in that bookshop."},{"speaker":"Stephen","startTime":59.61,"endTime":60.95,"body":"Yeah, it was great playing those games."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":61.33,"endTime":64.73,"body":"Right, for today's episode, we're particularly excited. And we're joined by"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":64.73,"endTime":68.87,"body":"the man that made all that possible, Dave Morris, co-creator of Dragon Warriors"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":68.87,"endTime":73.37,"body":"and one of the most influential British games designers of the 1980s and beyond."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":73.83,"endTime":76.17,"body":"Hi, Dave. Great to see you. Thanks for joining us."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":76.53,"endTime":76.81,"body":"Hi."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":91.01,"endTime":92.67,"body":"Great to be on. Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":92.97,"endTime":96.85,"body":"It's an honour. Yeah, you've got three fanboys here and one murder hobo."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":98.95,"endTime":102.61,"body":"Well, you don't want anything like Trump's cabinet where they're all yes men."},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":102.97,"endTime":106.85,"body":"Yeah, exactly that. There's a man after my own heart like it."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":106.85,"endTime":110.37,"body":"So, Dave, could you ever imagine that 40 years on, you'd still be talking about"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":110.37,"endTime":111.89,"body":"Dragon Warriors like this?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":113.24,"endTime":115.9,"body":"You know, at that age, you don't even think about 40 years on,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":115.98,"endTime":117.98,"body":"do you? No, I mean, I'm amazed, really."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":119.48,"endTime":124.54,"body":"Until sort of when was it? About 2005, you know, I thought Dragon Warriors had"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":124.54,"endTime":126.12,"body":"been a thing. People would often mention it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":126.26,"endTime":129.88,"body":"And a lot of my gaming friends had started with it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":130.02,"endTime":134.0,"body":"But it was only when James Wallace came along and said, do you want to bring it back?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":134.36,"endTime":137.88,"body":"But it sort of struck me that there were still even any fans out there."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":138.08,"endTime":139.86,"body":"So, yeah, pretty amazing."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":140.4,"endTime":144.2,"body":"We were there. yeah we were still playing through for all of the years my."},{"speaker":"Jon","startTime":144.2,"endTime":148.04,"body":"Books are almost falling apart held together mostly with tape and prayers."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":148.04,"endTime":150.8,"body":"So today just to give you an idea"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":150.8,"endTime":153.8,"body":"of what we're going to be talking about it'd be great to talk about the history of dragon"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":153.8,"endTime":157.28,"body":"warriors so that's the real heart and soul of it and then talk about where it"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":157.28,"endTime":161.46,"body":"is now and how you can get involved it's still a live system still plenty of"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":161.46,"endTime":165.04,"body":"things being developed for it so um point you in the right direction for that"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":165.04,"endTime":169.3,"body":"and then look at the future of dragon warriors there are plans for a new system"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":169.3,"endTime":172.46,"body":"based in the same world that you're in the process of writing."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":173.22,"endTime":177.58,"body":"The idea for a fully-fledged RPG being sold in the average bookshop,"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":177.78,"endTime":179.84,"body":"WH Smiths, how did you get away with it?"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":180.06,"endTime":182.98,"body":"Sounds like a crazy thing to have achieved even now."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":183.72,"endTime":188.16,"body":"Really, the trailblazing had been done by Ian Livingston and Steve Jackson by"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":188.16,"endTime":190.32,"body":"getting game books into Smiths."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":190.46,"endTime":194.42,"body":"I'd actually been talking to, because I used to do a lot of articles in White"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":194.42,"endTime":199.78,"body":"Dwarf under my own name and various pseudonyms, and I'd been thinking of putting"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":199.78,"endTime":204.6,"body":"a role-playing game, serializing a role-playing game in White Dwarf because of the success."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":204.74,"endTime":206.74,"body":"I'd done a series called Dealing with Demons."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":207.04,"endTime":210.42,"body":"People liked it. I said, maybe we should do a role-playing game."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":211.08,"endTime":214.34,"body":"Then I realized I don't have to put it in the magazine."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":214.34,"endTime":218.84,"body":"I could actually get it into bookshops because publishers were suddenly willing"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":218.84,"endTime":223.4,"body":"to talk about these nerdy things that they'd never been interested in before,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":223.44,"endTime":226.34,"body":"but they all thought they'd be missing out if they didn't do it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":226.58,"endTime":229.14,"body":"And I kind of, I knew it wasn't,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":229.87,"endTime":233.83,"body":"a game book, which is what they were all looking for. But I realized they also"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":233.83,"endTime":240.33,"body":"didn't know what game books really were, so I could kind of smuggle it past them."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":240.67,"endTime":243.45,"body":"That's what it felt like at the time. So people didn't really know what they"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":243.45,"endTime":246.69,"body":"were getting. Your publishers didn't know what they were getting, a fully-fledged RPG."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":247.03,"endTime":251.13,"body":"Yeah, exactly. And also because all the role-playing games at the time,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":251.59,"endTime":255.17,"body":"I mean, RuneQuest or Dungeons and Dragons, they're pretty expensive."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":255.41,"endTime":258.87,"body":"You bought them in a box and And you had to go to a hobby shop to get them."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":259.25,"endTime":263.67,"body":"And I wanted something we could serialize so people could buy it with their"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":263.67,"endTime":265.07,"body":"pocket money, was the idea."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":265.17,"endTime":269.27,"body":"Going to Smith's and two months later, there'd be a new one."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":269.41,"endTime":274.01,"body":"And we'd build the game. Obviously, there are some problems with having to release"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":274.01,"endTime":278.29,"body":"it in books like that, because I'd have to think, well, we can't do stealth"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":278.29,"endTime":280.99,"body":"and assassins until I get to book four or whatever."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":281.47,"endTime":283.69,"body":"So we'd had to tease it out in that way."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":284.6,"endTime":289.64,"body":"On the other hand it meant it wasn't an impossible price even when you got all"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":289.64,"endTime":294.08,"body":"six books they weren't you know compared to dnd it was a lot cheaper so that"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":294.08,"endTime":295.08,"body":"was the thinking behind it."},{"speaker":"Stephen","startTime":295.08,"endTime":299.28,"body":"Yeah we went into a local bookshop to look for the fighting fantasies but then"},{"speaker":"Stephen","startTime":299.28,"endTime":300.44,"body":"we saw the dragon warriors,"},{"speaker":"Stephen","startTime":301.0,"endTime":304.88,"body":"on the shelf we thought what was this it looks a little bit of a crossover between"},{"speaker":"Stephen","startTime":304.88,"endTime":310.14,"body":"the play by numbers and a role-playing game so we picked it up yeah really enjoyed what we saw yeah."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":310.14,"endTime":313.48,"body":"And it became a gateway system to go onto dungeons and dragons although it wasn't"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":313.48,"endTime":316.72,"body":"for us because we'd already made that leap and were playing D\u0026D at the time"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":316.72,"endTime":319.32,"body":"when we saw it. Did you find that happened, Dave, with a lot of people?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":319.66,"endTime":324.44,"body":"I certainly thought when game books became a fad, I mean, they were a big craze"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":324.44,"endTime":327.56,"body":"in Britain, but Europe as well at the time."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":327.68,"endTime":331.82,"body":"And I was thinking, I imagined most of those people would move to role-playing."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":332.06,"endTime":336.78,"body":"And actually, that's not true. I think 90% of game bookers never role-played."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":337.02,"endTime":340.34,"body":"Either they didn't have any friends who wanted to do it or they"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":340.34,"endTime":343.1,"body":"just weren't interested in role-playing but to me"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":343.1,"endTime":347.3,"body":"it was all game books were a gateway to role-playing some people would come"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":347.3,"endTime":352.3,"body":"to me years later and say we still play in legend but we use our own preferred"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":352.3,"endTime":356.8,"body":"system whether it's gurps or rune quest or whatever and i thought that's fine"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":356.8,"endTime":362.3,"body":"it's it got them into role-playing that's the key thing and even better if they still use the world when."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":362.3,"endTime":367.06,"body":"I was reffing for the sprog i dived over a lot into the the blood sword books"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":367.06,"endTime":370.24,"body":"so ended up doing a mishmash of."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":370.24,"endTime":371.96,"body":"Battles and."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":371.96,"endTime":377.9,"body":"Expanded on that all the little snippets of world building that you padded it up it's lovely."},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":377.9,"endTime":382.96,"body":"Obviously i know um less about this system than any of these guys and you know"},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":382.96,"endTime":385.64,"body":"my ignorance is going to shine through which."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":385.64,"endTime":387.46,"body":"I suppose more of a comment than a question."},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":387.46,"endTime":391.26,"body":"I mean i remember buying the player's handbook and when i bought it i was surprised"},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":391.26,"endTime":395.6,"body":"to find that it was like a pay what you can afford scheme and with you saying"},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":395.6,"endTime":399.62,"body":"that you know that it was important that it came out in when you first released"},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":399.62,"endTime":401.7,"body":"it in it increments so it was affordable."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":401.7,"endTime":405.88,"body":"Well i mean i more fondly remember the little paperbacks,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":406.62,"endTime":411.42,"body":"I mean, it looks gorgeous in its big, glossy, hardback version,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":411.6,"endTime":413.74,"body":"but that's for fans, as it were."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":413.88,"endTime":417.92,"body":"But the original was just, I wanted any kid who just went in there and,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":418.18,"endTime":421.84,"body":"like you say, looking for fighting fantasy, would find a paperback and think,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":421.96,"endTime":423.48,"body":"I can just take this home and start playing."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":423.66,"endTime":429.56,"body":"So I think that it lives in a different niche now from where it was originally."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":430.08,"endTime":432.9,"body":"So when you were trying to tempt people into it from the beginning,"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":433.04,"endTime":437.4,"body":"people giving it a go, it does have a lot of similarities with Dungeons \u0026 Dragons,"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":438.3,"endTime":439.92,"body":"and particularly the dice set."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":440.34,"endTime":443.48,"body":"That's what you had in D\u0026D, and that appealed to us at the time."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":443.58,"endTime":448.24,"body":"Although I heard you say once that that wasn't exactly what you would have done in hindsight."},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":448.46,"endTime":451.7,"body":"That wasn't the best idea, considering most people didn't have those dice,"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":452.02,"endTime":455.48,"body":"particularly those that were shopping in the kind of bookshops and buying the"},{"speaker":"Mark","startTime":455.48,"endTime":457.52,"body":"sort of games that you were trying to appeal to."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":457.52,"endTime":464.3,"body":"So that's one big regret that I used all the polyhedral dice because Oliver"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":464.3,"endTime":469.34,"body":"Johnson, my co-author, he said, can you just not make it D6?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":470.35,"endTime":473.95,"body":"Because everybody will have those. And I said, oh, I can't really do the,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":473.95,"endTime":479.13,"body":"I lazily said, I can't really do the statistical distribution as easily with"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":479.13,"endTime":481.65,"body":"just D6. And he was dead right."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":481.87,"endTime":484.49,"body":"The whole point was to make it very accessible."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":484.75,"endTime":490.09,"body":"You know, considering that I'd said, you don't have to go into a hobby store to buy it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":490.21,"endTime":493.79,"body":"It's a bit crazy to then send them to a hobby store to get the dice."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":493.79,"endTime":501.21,"body":"So I do regret not just, you know, trying a bit harder to come up with a more streamlined system."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":501.37,"endTime":505.73,"body":"And we're here to tell you that I do not regret that any longer because..."},{"speaker":"Barry","startTime":505.73,"endTime":508.59,"body":"Well, yeah, there are more than a couple of die-scorblins here, aren't there?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":508.71,"endTime":513.23,"body":"Do you know what I mean? So the setting, yeah, going really just so we can describe"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":513.23,"endTime":516.63,"body":"the system well to people that might want to come and give it a go."},{"speaker":"Jon","startTime":516.79,"endTime":523.55,"body":"Well, the setting is more fairy-based, like King Arthur and the lands of Fae."},{"speaker":"Jon","startTime":523.79,"endTime":528.19,"body":"And sort of bleeding over into the real gritty world, I think,"},{"speaker":"Jon","startTime":528.87,"endTime":535.43,"body":"rather than the high fantasy of D\u0026D or the totally grim and perilous of Warhammer."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":535.79,"endTime":541.67,"body":"Well, kind of early 70s or mid-70s, you'd got D\u0026D and then chivalry and sorcery came along."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":541.87,"endTime":547.43,"body":"And chivalry and sorcery was very heavily medieval, in a very detailed,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":547.63,"endTime":553.27,"body":"almost like a history textbook, and also a very slow game to play."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":553.79,"endTime":558.47,"body":"But I appreciated they were trying to do something a bit more authentic feeling,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":558.71,"endTime":563.39,"body":"where D\u0026D really felt to me like it was more like the Wild West."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":563.59,"endTime":566.37,"body":"I mean, they were supposed to be based on things like Tolkien,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":566.47,"endTime":567.85,"body":"but it didn't feel that way."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":568.61,"endTime":574.31,"body":"And I'd always been interested in the darker side, you know, the kind of folk horror."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":574.45,"endTime":577.97,"body":"And I suppose naturally coming from Britain or Europe."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":579.38,"endTime":586.1,"body":"Flavor of a kind of grittier and less superheroic kind of fantasy was just a"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":586.1,"endTime":587.46,"body":"natural direction to take."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":587.6,"endTime":592.14,"body":"I've heard, I haven't played it, that the Schwarzer Auge, the German game,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":592.32,"endTime":594.38,"body":"has a very similar aesthetic."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":594.58,"endTime":599.24,"body":"So I think it's just the difference between a European approach and an American approach."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":599.38,"endTime":603.32,"body":"Having said that, plenty of Americans have told me they've enjoyed playing Dragon"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":603.32,"endTime":607.74,"body":"Warriors, so it's not exclusively a European taste."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":608.14,"endTime":612.1,"body":"A little bit about the system itself as well. You made the choice just to have"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":612.1,"endTime":615.64,"body":"human PCs, although I think, John, you know a bit more about the races."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":615.64,"endTime":618.94,"body":"I think you could play a race up to a certain level, couldn't you initially?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":619.08,"endTime":621.16,"body":"Well, yeah, half things were limited to..."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":623.09,"endTime":627.29,"body":"I think third. They did have elves."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":627.97,"endTime":631.61,"body":"Elves and dwarves were the ones listed as possible. I remember having an elf,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":631.69,"endTime":633.11,"body":"actually, and not being resurrected."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":633.31,"endTime":637.11,"body":"Is that true, or did Mark just stitch me up? Yeah, because it's spirits,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":637.13,"endTime":639.09,"body":"not souls. Okay. They are fae."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":639.25,"endTime":646.31,"body":"Because I wanted things like elves and dwarves and goblins to be strange and exotic and mysterious."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":646.81,"endTime":652.43,"body":"And as soon as you say, like the D\u0026D approach, they're really just another race that you can play."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":653.09,"endTime":656.73,"body":"You have to create something else to be the mysterious, weird thing."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":657.17,"endTime":662.83,"body":"So my preference would be to not have any non-human player characters at all."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":662.95,"endTime":667.35,"body":"But again, Oliver was saying, well, you've got to at least allow the possibility"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":667.35,"endTime":671.89,"body":"because some people will come to it having read Lord of the Rings,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":672.05,"endTime":675.05,"body":"for example, and they'll want to be able to play the Fellowship."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":675.17,"endTime":680.41,"body":"So I sort of reluctantly included the rules for that while I think making it"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":680.41,"endTime":682.87,"body":"pretty clear I didn't support them myself."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":683.09,"endTime":690.17,"body":"No, it fits. It's the elves were this distant, far away, fae race at their own"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":690.17,"endTime":693.13,"body":"realm and stuff like that. So never really thought of it like that?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":693.35,"endTime":697.09,"body":"It's one of, I've never thought about it until I heard it."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":697.23,"endTime":701.01,"body":"And now I'm hearing, I'm comparing my experiences in other games."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":701.03,"endTime":704.37,"body":"And it's a really valid choice because it's like sometimes when you're in a"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":704.37,"endTime":708.39,"body":"D\u0026D adventure and your DM is describing this weird and wonderful person in front"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":708.39,"endTime":710.37,"body":"of you, like I'm traveling with a Dragonborn, mate."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":711.87,"endTime":714.33,"body":"I've seen much weirder shit today."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":714.65,"endTime":715.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":715.41,"endTime":719.37,"body":"Yeah. So like the real world, the differences would be cultural."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":719.71,"endTime":724.25,"body":"Remember one of my players had joined, this must have been sometime in the 90s"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":724.25,"endTime":725.83,"body":"and after we'd played for about a year."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":726.56,"endTime":734.04,"body":"He said, it's only just occurred to me that all the really nasty opponents are humans."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":734.4,"endTime":738.9,"body":"They've encountered Faze, but there are so many ways for human beings to be"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":738.9,"endTime":742.96,"body":"absolute evil bastards that I don't think you need to necessarily delve into"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":742.96,"endTime":747.98,"body":"goblins and the like for the real big bads of the campaign."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":748.24,"endTime":752.0,"body":"Dave is definitely talking my kind of language. I mean, that's just the statement"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":752.0,"endTime":754.16,"body":"of fact, isn't it? People are dicks."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":755.2,"endTime":756.04,"body":"You don't."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":756.04,"endTime":757.66,"body":"Need all these Gemihumans getting in the way."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":757.66,"endTime":762.5,"body":"Feels more personal I mean I've had players Who have Talked about murder hobos"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":762.5,"endTime":768.12,"body":"Who've become Really homicidally Dedicated to taking out The NPC adversaries"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":768.12,"endTime":775.18,"body":"But Those are Rivals at court You know Other Human NPCs When they're opposed by,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":775.94,"endTime":780.24,"body":"elves or whatever it's kind of like it can be frightening to them but it's not"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":780.24,"endTime":785.0,"body":"personal because they know that's just how the fays tend to behave it's when"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":785.0,"endTime":790.58,"body":"another human being does it that you really bear a grudge so it just feels more"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":790.58,"endTime":793.76,"body":"kind of dramatic i think to go that way and."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":793.76,"endTime":796.9,"body":"Alignment was something that you didn't include i don't think people are so."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":796.9,"endTime":797.18,"body":"Used to."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":797.18,"endTime":800.28,"body":"Having alignment in modern games so it's quite a modern system in that respect"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":800.28,"endTime":803.26,"body":"steven it was quite integral to of D\u0026D early days, wasn't it?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":803.46,"endTime":809.72,"body":"It was, yeah. I assumed that Gygax was thinking of Moorcock,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":809.98,"endTime":814.74,"body":"you know, Elric and Coram, and they had a lot of stuff with lore and chaos there."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":814.92,"endTime":819.44,"body":"But even in those universes, the average person wasn't aware of that."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":819.58,"endTime":823.38,"body":"I mean, Elric was aware, because he was a sorcerer, warrior,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":823.62,"endTime":828.28,"body":"you know, that he would align himself with the Arioch and the Lords of Chaos."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":828.28,"endTime":831.1,"body":"But it just felt to me like you've already got a lot"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":831.1,"endTime":833.86,"body":"to tell players you know here's this world and this is the"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":833.86,"endTime":836.58,"body":"setup and this is the local lord and this is"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":836.58,"endTime":839.68,"body":"what's going on and it seemed to me that trying to"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":839.68,"endTime":846.02,"body":"explain to them something like there's also good and evil law and chaos just"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":846.02,"endTime":850.02,"body":"seemed like who thinks that way you know i don't i don't go down the street"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":850.02,"endTime":853.78,"body":"thinking i'm lawful good i mean my friends probably wouldn't call me lawful"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":853.78,"endTime":858.56,"body":"good anyway but you know it's it's not how people think so i i could never see"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":858.56,"endTime":859.66,"body":"the point of including that."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":859.66,"endTime":863.02,"body":"Yeah it makes for better stories i"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":863.02,"endTime":866.38,"body":"think you can't have someone just spamming the detect evil button"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":866.38,"endTime":874.76,"body":"and uh and if you've got someone who play like an mpc who plays upright righteous"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":874.76,"endTime":880.46,"body":"and up front but behind closed doors they're an absolute bastard that makes"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":880.46,"endTime":884.56,"body":"it much more tricky to confront them yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":884.56,"endTime":889.9,"body":"Yeah also people are people are complicated you could have somebody who looks"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":889.9,"endTime":893.42,"body":"like they're really nice and then you suddenly discover that they're really"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":893.42,"endTime":895.28,"body":"horrible in one particular way,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":895.94,"endTime":899.7,"body":"And it's a bit of a shock, but, you know, I don't want to be told by the GM,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":900.16,"endTime":902.52,"body":"oh, you're not role-playing, because you think, yeah, but that's just,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":902.66,"endTime":904.04,"body":"that's who the character is."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":904.48,"endTime":908.42,"body":"Nice in many ways, but maybe they're a sadist or something, but it's,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":908.56,"endTime":910.28,"body":"they can be kind to cats, you know."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":910.76,"endTime":914.58,"body":"Even Hitler must have had his good side. I mean, he could just hit it well."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":916.06,"endTime":918.66,"body":"I was just wanting to say, actually, I agree, and this is something that's come"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":918.66,"endTime":922.5,"body":"up in the podcast when I talk about alignment, because I hate the idea of,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":922.68,"endTime":925.3,"body":"like, I've made a decision at the beginning of the campaign."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":926.12,"endTime":929.08,"body":"And really, I don't know where that character's going and what their experience"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":929.08,"endTime":933.28,"body":"is going to be. And alignment, like you say, in the real world, isn't a fixed point."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":933.46,"endTime":936.6,"body":"It was when Dave created this, alignment was the thing."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":936.86,"endTime":939.8,"body":"It was the thing. Yeah. I don't remember missing it when I played it."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":939.9,"endTime":942.3,"body":"I don't, it was probably more liberating to me thinking about,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":942.42,"endTime":944.72,"body":"you know, I can just play this character how I want to play it and not worry"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":944.72,"endTime":947.42,"body":"about, you know, not to be too projectable. So I don't. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":947.76,"endTime":950.72,"body":"There's a strong sense of good and evil, but it was. Yeah. I guess good and"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":950.72,"endTime":952.76,"body":"evil was still involved in the whole storytelling, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":952.76,"endTime":958.0,"body":"But, you know, you had returning crusaders and some of those were right, evil bastards."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":958.22,"endTime":962.8,"body":"But they took the, it wasn't a cross, was it? The Gatineides symbol."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":963.68,"endTime":966.6,"body":"No, that's an interesting one because he was impaled, not crucified."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":967.1,"endTime":971.2,"body":"But as Barry was saying, also, you want to develop your character as you play."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":971.34,"endTime":975.0,"body":"You want to see where the character is going to go. And sometimes that will"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":975.0,"endTime":977.66,"body":"mean they reform if they were a bit nasty to start with."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":977.66,"endTime":982.98,"body":"Or somebody sets off on the Crusades thinking, I'm a great idealist and fast"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":982.98,"endTime":987.22,"body":"forward three years and they're hanging somebody upside down over a fire and"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":987.22,"endTime":989.68,"body":"they've gone completely berserk fanatic."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":989.84,"endTime":993.32,"body":"I do love the villain arc or redemption arc."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":993.76,"endTime":996.54,"body":"So the other thing I wanted to touch on here, talking about the system itself,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":996.68,"endTime":999.78,"body":"D\u0026D, I don't know, Dave, if you've played the latest edition of it much,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":999.92,"endTime":1004.3,"body":"but it's for softies, it just really has no danger to it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1004.4,"endTime":1005.66,"body":"If a character gets killed,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1006.42,"endTime":1010.54,"body":"you're going to feel that's kind of a fail. Well, it's certainly a fail if the whole party does."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1010.7,"endTime":1013.2,"body":"At the same time, you always want that sense of danger. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1013.28,"endTime":1017.36,"body":"this is something every role-playing game has to deal with in some way."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1017.54,"endTime":1022.12,"body":"I certainly feel that with Dragon Warrior's adventures or any adventure set"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1022.12,"endTime":1026.16,"body":"in legend, there's nothing wrong with a downbeat ending."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1026.66,"endTime":1033.34,"body":"Even if the players survive, they'll often be cheated or disappointed in some way."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1033.48,"endTime":1038.32,"body":"They can have a conflicted victory rather than a superheroic victory."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1038.94,"endTime":1041.7,"body":"But I have noticed that, I mean, friends of mine, there's a friend of mine who's"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1041.7,"endTime":1046.64,"body":"running the Bloodsword books as a campaign for his son and his son's friends."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1046.78,"endTime":1052.66,"body":"And he said, but they're used to D\u0026D 5E, which is basically unlosable."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1053.2,"endTime":1057.24,"body":"So the idea that there could be threat where they might lose their character"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1057.24,"endTime":1061.68,"body":"and have to start again, it's kind of new for them, but I think they're coping with it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1061.74,"endTime":1064.54,"body":"I mean, they just except that sometimes you might get killed"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1064.54,"endTime":1067.38,"body":"and you've got to start a new guy or it's very different i"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1067.38,"endTime":1072.36,"body":"think but i don't know if if younger players find that approach in dnd a bit"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1072.36,"endTime":1076.1,"body":"patronizing i certainly would have done at their age i would have i would have"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1076.1,"endTime":1079.72,"body":"had nothing to do with anything that was letting me off too lightly i want to"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1079.72,"endTime":1085.02,"body":"feel like it's a real hard struggle and then you get a hard one victory and you feel you deserve it."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1085.02,"endTime":1087.16,"body":"That's what dragon warriors does present i think now to."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1087.16,"endTime":1087.5,"body":"The modern."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1087.5,"endTime":1091.9,"body":"Player if they're going to shift across and try something new then yeah i think"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1091.9,"endTime":1095.12,"body":"the difficulty level isn't extreme you don't need to be too frightened about."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1095.12,"endTime":1095.86,"body":"Losing too."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1095.86,"endTime":1100.22,"body":"Many characters there's ways of coming back to life aren't there too john there's"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1100.22,"endTime":1105.72,"body":"a couple the elixivitis the probably the most common one and then there was"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1105.72,"endTime":1108.28,"body":"the anchor of osiris which was like the,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1108.84,"endTime":1115.48,"body":"cleanest i think well you lose stats so yeah it you know represented the danger of,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1116.14,"endTime":1121.0,"body":"Yeah, you didn't want to die, let's be honest. Well, you get your body looted"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1121.0,"endTime":1121.78,"body":"within two minutes. Well, yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1123.0,"endTime":1127.76,"body":"You haven't hit the floor before you're stripped down. We love the difficulty"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1127.76,"endTime":1130.44,"body":"level of it in modern context, actually."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1130.64,"endTime":1134.36,"body":"I think it's a really good balance. And we've done it to our children too."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1134.52,"endTime":1137.22,"body":"And they've grown up loving the hobby, haven't they?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1137.64,"endTime":1140.06,"body":"Yeah, it's been a great system for the younger player."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1140.34,"endTime":1144.36,"body":"It's also good that people learn that there are a whole range of systems and"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1144.36,"endTime":1147.32,"body":"they can pick their favorite because I don't know if you've discussed this,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1147.42,"endTime":1151.48,"body":"but I've often heard people talk about if you come to D\u0026D, there can be a sense"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1151.48,"endTime":1153.08,"body":"there's nothing else out there."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1153.22,"endTime":1155.64,"body":"And then people get fed up with D\u0026D and they give up."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1155.88,"endTime":1159.28,"body":"But actually, there's loads of other things. Even if you want to stay in that"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1159.28,"endTime":1164.64,"body":"general danger level, you've got GURPS and RuneQuest, and then you could move"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1164.64,"endTime":1167.94,"body":"it to the Powered by the Apocalypse games or Blades in the Dark,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1167.98,"endTime":1170.3,"body":"or you could go off do Call of Cthulhu."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1170.42,"endTime":1174.84,"body":"People should just get used to the idea, try everything, and then they'll settle"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1174.84,"endTime":1175.92,"body":"on what they really like."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1176.08,"endTime":1180.08,"body":"One of my players today, when I first met him, the first thing he said to me"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1180.08,"endTime":1183.24,"body":"was, my group use GURPS, but we play in Legend."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1184.16,"endTime":1188.8,"body":"And I liked that because it was, you know, he was showing the willingness to"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1188.8,"endTime":1190.6,"body":"mix and match, you know, homebrew it."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1191.0,"endTime":1192.6,"body":"You were working at White Dwarf"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1192.6,"endTime":1195.86,"body":"and writing for White Dwarf then before Dragon Warriors was released."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1196.06,"endTime":1199.0,"body":"Because one of the things that gave it a lot of credibility at the time,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1199.24,"endTime":1202.78,"body":"because we were already in an AD\u0026D society and we were quite young."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1202.96,"endTime":1206.82,"body":"So when we brought along Dragon Warriors, the books, a lot of the old timers"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1206.82,"endTime":1208.52,"body":"there wouldn't take a look at it."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1208.62,"endTime":1212.44,"body":"They weren't interested. But it then, it was in White Wolf."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1212.62,"endTime":1215.72,"body":"And that really gave it a lot of credibility at the time. I think one of the"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1215.72,"endTime":1218.88,"body":"covers was the first cover of the first book, wasn't it, Dave, I think?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1219.18,"endTime":1223.72,"body":"Yeah. Obviously, I'd gone off to write Dragon Warriors and some game books."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1224.02,"endTime":1228.58,"body":"So I wasn't coming back to do articles. So I kind of had to really push,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1228.72,"endTime":1232.54,"body":"for old time's sake, give me a cover and a scenario."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1233.06,"endTime":1233.26,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1233.36,"endTime":1236.94,"body":"And the cover took a bit of arm twisting to get them to go, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1237.1,"endTime":1238.98,"body":"okay, well, we'll stick that on the front."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1238.98,"endTime":1242.98,"body":"So you brokered that deal yourself. The publisher didn't get involved. That's great work."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1243.22,"endTime":1247.58,"body":"I think I said to Ian Livingston, well, the advantage is you'll get the cover"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1247.58,"endTime":1252.44,"body":"for free because we paid Alan Craddock to do it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1252.56,"endTime":1256.16,"body":"And also I did the scenario probably for free. So I think that was probably"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1256.16,"endTime":1258.56,"body":"the main reason they were happy to do that."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1258.66,"endTime":1260.94,"body":"And I liked that was the box of old bones."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1261.1,"endTime":1264.9,"body":"And I liked doing that because I thought this is very much a flagship idea of"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1264.9,"endTime":1269.78,"body":"how a Dragon and Warriors Adventure looks in contrast to D\u0026D or other things."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1270.02,"endTime":1273.16,"body":"So it was a good way to show what we were trying to do."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1273.95,"endTime":1277.43,"body":"Yeah brilliant showcase and as i say it gave a lot of credibility to the game"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1277.43,"endTime":1281.59,"body":"and then suddenly you'd suggest it within our community and people were more"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1281.59,"endTime":1282.65,"body":"than willing to give it a go,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1283.41,"endTime":1289.49,"body":"if i can gushy fangirl that was bloody brilliant it's so expandable as well"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1289.49,"endTime":1295.15,"body":"it's one one of the go to setting pieces that i've used really good introduced"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1295.15,"endTime":1303.35,"body":"like a counter group to the play So effectively another role play that you can play."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1303.65,"endTime":1305.89,"body":"You could be the bad guys doing the swipe."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1306.39,"endTime":1311.69,"body":"There's so many different ways of approaching it. But also the Abbey was detailed"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1311.69,"endTime":1318.15,"body":"enough. It's a good place, like focal point for characters of certain types to go to."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1318.41,"endTime":1322.17,"body":"And yeah. That's been reprinted, hasn't it, Dave? I think that's within the"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1322.17,"endTime":1324.33,"body":"new PDFs they put it into."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1324.65,"endTime":1329.79,"body":"Yes. I don't know where it's appeared again, but it has. And it just occurred"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1329.79,"endTime":1334.37,"body":"to me that people who like heist games could use one of those systems to run"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1334.37,"endTime":1337.69,"body":"that heist, in fact, to get the relic."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1338.38,"endTime":1342.92,"body":"Yeah, that's it. Just to tidy up the history really here, when you look back"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1342.92,"endTime":1347.56,"body":"at the 80s and the impact that it had, obviously it had a massive impact on"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1347.56,"endTime":1353.36,"body":"us and, you know, life-changing in many respects for the hobby in general from our point of view."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1353.5,"endTime":1358.08,"body":"But how did it do, did you find at the time, were you pleased with the results?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1358.08,"endTime":1361.88,"body":"It was a mad thing, like I say, like we started, it's crazy to have walked in"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1361.88,"endTime":1366.68,"body":"and then alongside you buying informancy books to find a Capone of Fire Day"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1366.68,"endTime":1370.14,"body":"real proper role-playing game. It must have taken a lot of people by surprise"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1370.14,"endTime":1371.84,"body":"at the time. How did it do?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1372.2,"endTime":1376.28,"body":"It did pretty well. Originally, people at Transworld, the publishers,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1376.42,"endTime":1381.82,"body":"were very keen, and even the sales reps, who were typically not bothered about the content,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1382.08,"endTime":1386.38,"body":"became players because they'd get me to go in in the evening and all the sales"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1386.38,"endTime":1387.52,"body":"reps would be playing it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1387.64,"endTime":1391.4,"body":"So we were talking about doing 12 books, which I was definitely up for."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1392.12,"endTime":1396.48,"body":"That's what I really wanted to do but we had a few distribution hiccups which"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1396.48,"endTime":1402.06,"body":"are just those flukes for one thing the distributors thought they had the first"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1402.06,"endTime":1406.98,"body":"three books and they thought it didn't you wouldn't need all three which really"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1406.98,"endTime":1410.18,"body":"to play everything you know to magic and everything you need all three,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1410.72,"endTime":1414.72,"body":"so they sent all the copies of book one to the south all the copies of book"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1414.72,"endTime":1418.96,"body":"two i think to the north and all the copies of book three to scotland and then"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1418.96,"endTime":1421.84,"body":"they had people in scotland going it's just scenarios, though,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1422.02,"endTime":1424.12,"body":"you know, and oh, yeah, okay, we messed up."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1424.3,"endTime":1427.54,"body":"So they did kind of redistribute a bit. And then,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1428.37,"endTime":1435.35,"body":"A lot of books at the time depended on foreign sales, and particularly in France,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1435.55,"endTime":1440.25,"body":"where the role-playing and game book craze was just as big as it was here."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1441.15,"endTime":1445.55,"body":"And Gallimard was the big French publisher, and they came and made us a really"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1445.55,"endTime":1447.87,"body":"good offer for the French translation rights."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1448.23,"endTime":1454.31,"body":"But the publisher's foreign rights person said, oh, I think I can get a better"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1454.31,"endTime":1456.35,"body":"deal with this tiny new publisher."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1457.89,"endTime":1461.53,"body":"And six months later, that fell through. They had to go back to Gallimard."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1461.65,"endTime":1466.01,"body":"But by now, Gallimard's offer had dropped, and they didn't sell as many there."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1466.17,"endTime":1470.13,"body":"So it meant we'd done pretty well to start with. But by the time we got to book"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1470.13,"endTime":1474.07,"body":"six, they weren't going to go ahead and do seven to 12, which was a great shame."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1474.25,"endTime":1474.93,"body":"That was a shame."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1475.17,"endTime":1475.37,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1475.81,"endTime":1478.49,"body":"That would have been great, wouldn't it? Yeah. It was sad to see that."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1478.93,"endTime":1482.63,"body":"But those seven to 12, you must be asked this a few times."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1482.83,"endTime":1485.25,"body":"Book seven to 12, do they exist?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1485.25,"endTime":1490.85,"body":"Yes, some of the stuff. Robert Dale, who contributed a scenario in book two,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1491.17,"endTime":1496.51,"body":"had done a complete town, Brimstone, and a campaign that went with it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1497.39,"endTime":1502.69,"body":"It would have been almost the complete book seven, probably. And that did appear..."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1503.46,"endTime":1508.74,"body":"In a very abbreviated form. I don't know, 10 years later, there was a magazine"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1508.74,"endTime":1510.28,"body":"started up called Red Giant."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1511.0,"endTime":1514.22,"body":"Yeah. Actually, they asked me and Jamie Thompson to be the editors."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1514.34,"endTime":1517.24,"body":"And the first thing we said was, not if you're going to call it Red Giant."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1517.48,"endTime":1520.48,"body":"They published a bit of Robert's Brimstone campaign."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1520.9,"endTime":1526.62,"body":"It exists. And I think Robert's recently revised it. And if there was much publishing"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1526.62,"endTime":1528.34,"body":"momentum, I'm sure it would appear."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1528.6,"endTime":1533.9,"body":"Every so often, Serpent King Games, who now publish the new edition do talk"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1533.9,"endTime":1538.56,"body":"about it, but it's a bit like controlled fusion. It's been talked about for"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1538.56,"endTime":1540.36,"body":"decades, but it doesn't mean it's going to happen."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1541.14,"endTime":1545.86,"body":"The Cadaver Draconis, the online resource that was before..."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1545.86,"endTime":1546.48,"body":"Cobbry and Forest."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1547.16,"endTime":1551.68,"body":"Yeah. They did a lot of expansions on professions."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1552.46,"endTime":1556.82,"body":"I was wondering if that was where a lot of your 7 to 12 had ended up."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1557.2,"endTime":1562.62,"body":"No, I hadn't really. I think we'd thought a bit more about some of the religious orders."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1562.82,"endTime":1568.54,"body":"A lot of the stuff that I'd ended up developing background material in Bloodsword,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1568.7,"endTime":1570.44,"body":"and I guess some of that would have come in."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1570.8,"endTime":1576.72,"body":"Oliver and I had done what was called Quest World in the early 80s for Games"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1576.72,"endTime":1578.06,"body":"Workshop, and that fell through."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1578.32,"endTime":1583.9,"body":"So we were thinking about repurposing that for what lies beyond the Western Ocean,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1584.12,"endTime":1590.02,"body":"because there's a big tradition in Anglo-Saxon and Celtic myth of the sea voyage"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1590.02,"endTime":1593.36,"body":"with a whole kind of odyssey series of adventures."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1593.76,"endTime":1597.26,"body":"And so we were going to maybe develop that a bit more. But because that's a"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1597.26,"endTime":1599.12,"body":"tradition in those old tales,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1599.36,"endTime":1604.06,"body":"we thought we'd take our old Questworld material and repurpose that as the area"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1604.06,"endTime":1608.78,"body":"beyond the mysterious Western Ocean, which we'd explored in our own campaigns,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1608.94,"endTime":1611.64,"body":"but only to find the edge of the world. And I thought,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1612.13,"endTime":1617.05,"body":"We ought to put something there, but there's not like a box is full of books"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1617.05,"endTime":1619.53,"body":"7 to 12 material waiting to happen."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1619.67,"endTime":1623.37,"body":"Or I'd have put them out myself by now, but I'm hoping Brimstone will come along."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1623.59,"endTime":1626.75,"body":"We move on to now talking about the modern day Dragon Warriors."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1626.91,"endTime":1630.43,"body":"Well, I know this reprint happened in the early noughties."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1630.63,"endTime":1632.03,"body":"You were closely involved with that, Dave?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1632.23,"endTime":1635.25,"body":"Was that an intention or was it you hinted at that they involved you,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1635.33,"endTime":1636.41,"body":"but it was somebody else's idea?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1636.41,"endTime":1641.37,"body":"It was one of those kind of semi-incestuous kind of publishing things in that"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1641.37,"endTime":1645.71,"body":"James Wallace, who I was best man for, said,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1646.25,"endTime":1650.91,"body":"I could bring Dragon Warriors back and he kind of teamed up with Mongoose,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1650.99,"endTime":1652.83,"body":"but I think Mongoose only did the printing."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1653.03,"endTime":1658.45,"body":"James did all of the editing and typesetting and brought the team together to"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1658.45,"endTime":1660.69,"body":"do it. That was Magnum Opus Press."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1661.07,"endTime":1665.57,"body":"I mean, it's a very nice, lavish production, but that puts a lot of burden on"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1665.57,"endTime":1668.63,"body":"the publisher because he's got to sell a lot to sustain it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1668.83,"endTime":1673.35,"body":"So after a while, he passed the license over to Serpent King Games,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1673.37,"endTime":1677.87,"body":"who basically are a little company that started out of some of his team,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1678.19,"endTime":1681.03,"body":"his creative team. So I was kind of peripherally involved."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1681.19,"endTime":1685.51,"body":"I think they asked if I had an idea for a session zero type of adventure."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1685.79,"endTime":1694.09,"body":"And I gave some notes to Fraser Payne, who wrote the scenario in the second edition book."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1694.37,"endTime":1698.25,"body":"But beyond that, yeah, I kind of let them get on with it because I was working"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1698.25,"endTime":1700.57,"body":"at Elixir Studios at the time."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1700.73,"endTime":1706.31,"body":"And basically, it was 24-7 when you included commuting. So I didn't have the time to get involved."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1706.49,"endTime":1707.81,"body":"Well, you must be pleased with what they've done."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1707.97,"endTime":1708.53,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1708.83,"endTime":1713.91,"body":"Yeah, we'd have been playing it anyway. But as far as being able to convince"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1713.91,"endTime":1719.13,"body":"or to tell people, give this a go, it's that addition that really puts it on the map."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1719.23,"endTime":1719.45,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1719.61,"endTime":1723.31,"body":"But the books one to six that we've discussed have gone into the core rulebook."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1723.41,"endTime":1727.85,"body":"And then, well, there must be at least a dozen additional supplements, the best three."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1728.13,"endTime":1730.59,"body":"And the whole thing is just now so complete."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1730.81,"endTime":1735.03,"body":"Yes. And it's much better organized because I had to serialize it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1735.13,"endTime":1739.85,"body":"And as I say, that meant you didn't get stealth and perception rules until book four."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1740.23,"endTime":1745.61,"body":"And James completely re-edited it into a consistent single book."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1745.73,"endTime":1750.23,"body":"And then I really liked the way he took the scenarios and grouped them together."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1750.51,"endTime":1755.45,"body":"So you have kind of thematically grouped adventures, sleeping gods and things"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1755.45,"endTime":1757.43,"body":"like that. Yeah. And also-"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1758.13,"endTime":1762.45,"body":"really nice artwork that went with it. John Hodgson's artwork seems to me to"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1762.45,"endTime":1766.15,"body":"be perfect for Legend. Yeah, it's a very nice production."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1766.41,"endTime":1770.35,"body":"So yeah, that was very, very much my experience of it, even though I've only"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1770.35,"endTime":1771.57,"body":"played a couple of campaigns."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1771.67,"endTime":1776.09,"body":"When I got the player's handbook and sat down with the other players at the"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1776.09,"endTime":1780.41,"body":"table, from a production values point of view, it was indistinguishable from"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1780.41,"endTime":1782.15,"body":"any of the big name games that I've been playing."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1782.91,"endTime":1786.05,"body":"It looked the part and you're right, the artwork is gorgeous."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1786.47,"endTime":1786.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1787.05,"endTime":1790.03,"body":"Barry, you didn't really know that you had the history. I didn't know I had any of this history."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1790.21,"endTime":1793.37,"body":"I just, I mean, genuinely, and I mean this as a compliment, I just thought I"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1793.37,"endTime":1796.31,"body":"was playing something else that was a bit like D\u0026D. And it was..."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1797.04,"endTime":1800.72,"body":"Like i say from production values and from quality it"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1800.72,"endTime":1803.8,"body":"was it was on a par and what we think"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1803.8,"endTime":1806.58,"body":"about the biggest strength the system we love it it's lightweight don't get"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1806.58,"endTime":1809.5,"body":"me wrong we're a big fan of the system but the adventures really are"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1809.5,"endTime":1813.5,"body":"just just like yeah this is what you've got to do you've got to you've got to"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1813.5,"endTime":1817.66,"body":"run those scenarios and and just play them all there's not there's not a bad"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1817.66,"endTime":1820.84,"body":"one amongst them and the order is quite obvious because the levels are set quite"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1820.84,"endTime":1825.82,"body":"clearly and you've got a year 18 months worth of weekly gameplay they're just"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1825.82,"endTime":1828.7,"body":"playing through everything that's written within those books."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1828.88,"endTime":1831.4,"body":"And in five years, John will have you doing it."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1832.42,"endTime":1836.52,"body":"Just brilliant scenarios. When I started playing them, that's what separated"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1836.52,"endTime":1838.3,"body":"it from A Dozen Dragons for me."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1838.38,"endTime":1841.04,"body":"I felt like I was being placed in a story. That makes sense."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1841.3,"endTime":1844.52,"body":"I tried to make the adventures into a campaign."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1844.52,"endTime":1847.94,"body":"So you had this natural, almost season by season,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1848.54,"endTime":1854.28,"body":"not that I really typically like to talk about campaigns in those terms,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1854.28,"endTime":1860.28,"body":"but the idea that you'd be starting off and then you'd be working for Baron Aldred for a while."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1860.48,"endTime":1864.0,"body":"But there's a point where you fall out with him to some extent,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1864.18,"endTime":1867.4,"body":"and then you're into the next phase and you're getting more independence."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1867.64,"endTime":1870.78,"body":"Because I was thinking by this stage, these were newbies a year ago,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1870.92,"endTime":1874.74,"body":"but they're now experienced players and it's time for them to be a bit more independent."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1875.02,"endTime":1879.6,"body":"So previously they'd had the Baron as their NPC guide."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1879.9,"endTime":1882.92,"body":"And I thought we can move them on a stage now."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1883.53,"endTime":1887.95,"body":"The idea, I guess I was thinking was people will play these adventures and then"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1887.95,"endTime":1891.67,"body":"they'll see how a campaign should work and they'll take it from there."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1892.39,"endTime":1896.15,"body":"We played through them all more than once. Yeah, I remember the first one in"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1896.15,"endTime":1898.95,"body":"the very first book was quite like, I died so many times in that and then they"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1898.95,"endTime":1899.99,"body":"sort of developed from there."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1900.33,"endTime":1904.77,"body":"Yeah. The first one is, yeah, it does feel as if it's quite a basic thing."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1905.09,"endTime":1909.21,"body":"But then you've got this character Valendar at the end and if you play the campaign"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1909.21,"endTime":1913.13,"body":"right or if you want him to have that effect, he has a presence right by the way through."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1913.53,"endTime":1914.39,"body":"Because of."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1914.39,"endTime":1917.27,"body":"The deals you make with this person that's right you get involved in that sort"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1917.27,"endTime":1919.75,"body":"of story and the ongoing arc of it that's what i felt."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1919.75,"endTime":1922.61,"body":"At the time yeah we also thought you know in those days there"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1922.61,"endTime":1925.49,"body":"were a lot of dungeons and so i"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1925.49,"endTime":1928.91,"body":"was hoping that i thought we've got to put the dungeons in but"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1928.91,"endTime":1933.47,"body":"i was hoping that players would notice that there was more fun to be had in"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1933.47,"endTime":1937.09,"body":"the bit that wasn't the dungeon like you know in that adventure you meet the"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1937.09,"endTime":1943.59,"body":"the crazy parson who wants to go off into the depths of the fairy wood and follow"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1943.59,"endTime":1946.99,"body":"a spider web trail by moonlight or something."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1947.15,"endTime":1950.37,"body":"And I thought, hopefully, when they've played a few adventures,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":1950.41,"endTime":1955.69,"body":"they'll think we could dispense with the dungeon part and just have those kind of things happening."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1955.83,"endTime":1958.21,"body":"Well, it certainly worked with me, because that's pretty much what I was playing."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1958.57,"endTime":1961.79,"body":"I guess up to then, then that was the first experience I had of more of an open-world"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1961.79,"endTime":1964.59,"body":"kind of scenario. So thanks. Yeah, Dragon Wars is true."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1964.89,"endTime":1971.43,"body":"Up until that point, B\u0026D had been... Yeah, it was monsters waiting in a room"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1971.43,"endTime":1977.17,"body":"with no ecology and a handful of silver, whatever each. That was it."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1977.43,"endTime":1983.79,"body":"Then you had the so-called bad guys like Gardner Jack in the second book."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1984.54,"endTime":1989.92,"body":"And you gave enough history and background there i've often had him as a good guy,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1991.68,"endTime":1999.0,"body":"and it changes the flavor of what happens after that there's so much you can do because,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":1999.58,"endTime":2005.52,"body":"if you take it as again the the fae background and the traditional stuff rather"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2005.52,"endTime":2011.12,"body":"than the warhammer and dnd goblins the fact that these a goblin in dragon warriors"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2011.12,"endTime":2013.12,"body":"is like a fae trickster sprite,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2013.78,"endTime":2017.44,"body":"changes how you view certain creatures. You can't just go by name."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2017.74,"endTime":2021.42,"body":"I think some of your bad guys have sometimes looked a little bit overpowered"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2021.42,"endTime":2025.7,"body":"to me. I tell you, there's a few TPKs in the making there, but people have got the right choice."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2026.0,"endTime":2030.96,"body":"It's never an organ conclusion that that is the combat that needs to happen, I think."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2031.14,"endTime":2034.26,"body":"Yes, sometimes it's don't have the fight in that case, yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2034.52,"endTime":2039.6,"body":"Have them too scared to. I had the Boggart in one of, I won't mention which"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2039.6,"endTime":2042.32,"body":"one in case it ends up as a spoiler for players, but..."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2043.47,"endTime":2047.03,"body":"Just having not describing the abilities"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2047.03,"endTime":2050.63,"body":"or the spells like what they are and just"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2050.63,"endTime":2053.45,"body":"saying the effect i had"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2053.45,"endTime":2058.27,"body":"a party actually surrender because they"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2058.27,"endTime":2062.15,"body":"couldn't see what was happening it was like constant little guerrilla warfare"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2062.15,"endTime":2067.91,"body":"and it worked it was brilliant i mean if they'd just gone charging in they'd"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2067.91,"endTime":2071.07,"body":"have absolutely rinsed them and it would have been another combat encounter"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2071.07,"endTime":2073.95,"body":"instead of one where they constantly complain,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2074.11,"endTime":2076.67,"body":"I robbed them blind because they gave up. It's brilliant."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2077.15,"endTime":2082.29,"body":"The good thing about the Dragon Warriors bad guys, it's really good to get into"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2082.29,"endTime":2085.61,"body":"the character of them. They're not just throwaway stat blocks."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2085.77,"endTime":2091.37,"body":"There's a story and you can really expand on everything. It's so good."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2091.67,"endTime":2093.15,"body":"That's what I want from villains."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2093.51,"endTime":2097.89,"body":"I want my villains to be as interesting as the people that are chasing them"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2097.89,"endTime":2101.87,"body":"down. So we heartily recommend it, of course, to our listeners."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2102.11,"endTime":2106.39,"body":"And if you do come across and give the system a go, this will happen for you."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2106.47,"endTime":2110.71,"body":"You'll get this as soon as you start playing it. It's very, very accessible."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2110.93,"endTime":2114.95,"body":"The system being fairly lightweight too, but the way the adventures are structured,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2114.99,"endTime":2118.53,"body":"as we've just discussed, and they draw you through into the campaign from a"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2118.53,"endTime":2124.25,"body":"very basic start, you do not need to be concerned really about sort of adapting to the system."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2124.25,"endTime":2128.21,"body":"I think it's perfect or giving something completely different a go and trying"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2128.21,"endTime":2130.05,"body":"something independent and."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2130.93,"endTime":2136.23,"body":"Talking about the current state of the system, you can buy these as PDFs, can't you?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2136.57,"endTime":2139.21,"body":"And this is still print-on-demand, Barry. You bought the book, didn't you?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2139.93,"endTime":2144.15,"body":"When did I buy it? So it was probably three or four years ago now."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2144.25,"endTime":2146.01,"body":"But yeah, I bought a physical copy."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2146.29,"endTime":2148.13,"body":"It was print to order."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2148.67,"endTime":2152.63,"body":"And it was pay what you can afford, which was really refreshing for me."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2152.77,"endTime":2156.53,"body":"Yeah, I think they still do that. And also, anyone going to drive through,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2157.21,"endTime":2160.75,"body":"there's also the casket, all the stuff that Red Ruin Publishing do."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2161.59,"endTime":2166.37,"body":"It's just fantastic they keep coming up with all sorts of new magic items and"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2166.37,"endTime":2172.29,"body":"new background stuff and stories adventures there's a huge amount of material"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2172.29,"endTime":2177.11,"body":"there that they're just doing for the love of it really and uh it's it's top notch and."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2177.11,"endTime":2178.95,"body":"It's at a reasonable pace there's not you're."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2178.95,"endTime":2180.15,"body":"Not yeah glutting."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2180.69,"endTime":2183.71,"body":"Uh the world with stuff that wasn't there before it yeah"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2183.71,"endTime":2186.87,"body":"yeah nice so red ruined yeah just to discuss"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2186.87,"endTime":2189.65,"body":"them they're a fan-based organization aren't they led"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2189.65,"endTime":2192.61,"body":"by simon barnes and we need to thank simon actually for"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2192.61,"endTime":2195.73,"body":"brokering our interview with you today thanks simon"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2195.73,"endTime":2200.71,"body":"for getting us in touch he's um yeah he's doing a great job there and yeah and"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2200.71,"endTime":2204.67,"body":"the community as a whole have come together as a strong discord channel yeah"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2204.67,"endTime":2208.69,"body":"the casket of phase which is like an old school kind of fanzine that's out every"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2208.69,"endTime":2212.11,"body":"so often i think there were an episode i think they've got a print option as"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2212.11,"endTime":2213.43,"body":"well now on drive through they."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2213.43,"endTime":2219.53,"body":"Do yes yeah and car seat of phase was a an item from that scenario a box of"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2219.53,"endTime":2225.11,"body":"old bones in fact so it's it's nice to see it the name being used in that context."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2226.23,"endTime":2229.55,"body":"And there's an open license now is there to this yeah."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2229.55,"endTime":2233.83,"body":"The guys who run serpent king games don't really have the time and there are"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2233.83,"endTime":2238.03,"body":"there's so much talent out there i mean i have to say i think people who've"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2238.03,"endTime":2244.53,"body":"learned their role playing from Dragon Warriors often end up being extremely imaginative."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2244.87,"endTime":2248.11,"body":"So there's so much great work being done all around the world as well,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2248.17,"endTime":2250.89,"body":"Australia, as well as here in Britain and so on."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2251.01,"endTime":2255.77,"body":"So it's giving them a forum to actually release that stuff and make a little"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2255.77,"endTime":2258.19,"body":"bit of money to encourage them to do some more."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2258.73,"endTime":2262.53,"body":"Yeah, it's very much a live system. The community is there."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2262.75,"endTime":2266.13,"body":"It's a very welcoming community. We've gone to the Day of Legends."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2266.35,"endTime":2270.31,"body":"I saw you there, Dave, actually. It's a yearly convention run by Red Ruin."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2271.53,"endTime":2276.11,"body":"It's been great. 40, 50 of us in a London pub playing one shots."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2277.03,"endTime":2280.13,"body":"There's another one of those online, but I think by the time this podcast comes"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2280.13,"endTime":2284.41,"body":"out, I think the Day of Legends online winter is going to be done within the notes."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2284.43,"endTime":2288.89,"body":"I'll add the date for the next Day of Legends as well. Is that the first convention"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2288.89,"endTime":2289.95,"body":"that Dragon Warriors has had?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2290.15,"endTime":2293.95,"body":"Yeah, I think the first kind of dedicated to Dragon Warriors."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2294.15,"endTime":2297.85,"body":"Went to the first one just to say hello, because some of my players had gone"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2297.85,"endTime":2300.15,"body":"along, and I was meeting them afterwards anyway."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2300.33,"endTime":2303.79,"body":"And then the second time, Oliver Johnson came as well, and we actually joined"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2303.79,"endTime":2305.17,"body":"in a game. That was a lot of fun."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2305.37,"endTime":2308.73,"body":"That's right. Remember, you almost signed up to my game, but Simon got you."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2308.73,"endTime":2310.31,"body":"Yeah, we were too slow."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2311.47,"endTime":2313.87,"body":"So yeah, looking at where you would get involved with it now,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2313.99,"endTime":2315.69,"body":"Day of Legends, the Discord channel,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2316.03,"endTime":2318.73,"body":"the fan material, there's just so much going on with the"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2318.73,"endTime":2321.47,"body":"system but get the core rules it's one book that'll get"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2321.47,"endTime":2324.63,"body":"you started that's got everything you need yeah great"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2324.63,"endTime":2327.37,"body":"also i'm thinking if you wanted to get into the"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2327.37,"endTime":2330.49,"body":"dragon war as well there are there are many other books that you could also"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2330.49,"endTime":2334.25,"body":"buy you've got the bloodsword book i see the news particularly fond of those"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2334.25,"endTime":2340.25,"body":"those a lot back in the day yeah absolutely loved them yeah the game books weren't"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2340.25,"endTime":2343.53,"body":"they so so what was the process was that then dave was that something that was"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2343.53,"endTime":2345.59,"body":"in the pipeline alongside Dragonborn?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2345.83,"endTime":2349.81,"body":"I was doing a lot of game books and I thought I'd rather stick with the world"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2349.81,"endTime":2352.65,"body":"that I've created than have to come up with something else."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2352.87,"endTime":2357.31,"body":"So it was a different publisher, but I went along and when we came up with the"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2357.31,"endTime":2359.33,"body":"idea of the selling point, I suppose, of,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2359.91,"endTime":2364.11,"body":"Bloodsword was that it was going to be multiplayer. So logically,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2364.51,"endTime":2370.33,"body":"it seemed to me this is another way to get people from game books to role-playing."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2371.07,"endTime":2374.39,"body":"So it made sense that I would use the Dragon Warriors world."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2374.75,"endTime":2380.23,"body":"Although I often say I kind of think of the Bloodsword books as the Saturday"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2380.23,"endTime":2385.47,"body":"morning cartoon version, perhaps, and the Dragon Warriors books are just slightly"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2385.47,"endTime":2388.05,"body":"more, there'd be the live action version."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2388.31,"endTime":2392.95,"body":"So just because most game book readers were just a little bit younger."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2393.51,"endTime":2397.39,"body":"So I thought of it slightly differently, but it's a bit more high fantasy."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2397.65,"endTime":2402.05,"body":"Recently, it was turned into a 5e campaign. So there's a book you can buy now"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2402.05,"endTime":2408.99,"body":"that Tambu in Italy did, which is the whole Bloodsword campaign done as a 5e thing."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2409.13,"endTime":2414.27,"body":"I haven't played it through. I played one session, but I've got some friends who are playing it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2414.37,"endTime":2419.09,"body":"And they said, It's not the same legend as they're used to from the Bloodsword"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2419.09,"endTime":2423.73,"body":"books or from Dragon Warriors, but it's a kind of 5e variant,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2424.09,"endTime":2426.29,"body":"you know, a multiverse alternative."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2426.63,"endTime":2432.83,"body":"Yeah, they got rid of Long West curing everything and there's nice bits in it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2432.93,"endTime":2437.59,"body":"Yes, they've made the characters not so super powered and it's a bit less forgiving"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2437.59,"endTime":2439.95,"body":"perhaps than 5e would normally be."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2440.31,"endTime":2444.61,"body":"Am I the only person that dies in Dungeons and Dragons? What's going on?"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2445.85,"endTime":2450.29,"body":"And also, uh, Dave, the Golden Dragon games books, I noticed you've reprinted"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2450.29,"endTime":2453.89,"body":"those and so they were about online too. They're very much in the flavor of Dragonwood."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2454.09,"endTime":2456.53,"body":"I think, was it three of them that were based in legend?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2457.26,"endTime":2461.3,"body":"Well, you see, that's an interesting one, because I don't really think of them"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2461.3,"endTime":2464.5,"body":"as based in Legend, but I can see why people would think this,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2464.58,"endTime":2467.5,"body":"because I used Wistron Wood in the first one, which is definitely,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2467.54,"endTime":2471.0,"body":"it's the western part of Jewel Spider in Dragon Warriors."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2471.3,"endTime":2477.52,"body":"And then Akhtan is mentioned in, I think, the third one, and that's mentioned"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2477.52,"endTime":2479.36,"body":"also on the map of Legend."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2479.64,"endTime":2482.22,"body":"So, I don't think they're canonically part of Legend."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2482.22,"endTime":2484.98,"body":"And uh so they're all available now also red ruin"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2484.98,"endTime":2487.96,"body":"as we've mentioned that do a hell of a lot of solo adventures so"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2487.96,"endTime":2491.06,"body":"you've got a way of getting into the system learning"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2491.06,"endTime":2494.0,"body":"about the world by yourself before you've got your own gaming group"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2494.0,"endTime":2496.76,"body":"together to give it a go with somebody else i mean there's plenty"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2496.76,"endTime":2500.88,"body":"of opportunities to to dive into this i recommend you check check those out"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2500.88,"endTime":2505.02,"body":"too john you had a question didn't you about is there going to be a dragon warriors"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2505.02,"endTime":2513.22,"body":"movie at all and or is there one or two that you would consider are really close"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2513.22,"endTime":2515.94,"body":"to it like maybe big inspirations oh."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2515.94,"endTime":2519.72,"body":"That's interesting i mean i don't know about inspirations i did when i saw the"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2519.72,"endTime":2526.24,"body":"black death i thought now that's pretty close to dragon warriors even the way"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2526.24,"endTime":2533.56,"body":"they've got magic working in a very ambiguous and slightly unpleasant way is quite clever."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2533.86,"endTime":2538.96,"body":"So that's probably the nearest, I think, to a movie that I've seen since doing"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2538.96,"endTime":2540.58,"body":"the book. So I thought, yeah, that fits."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2541.36,"endTime":2544.9,"body":"They were looking for a cure, and it was an isolated village in the marshes."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2545.12,"endTime":2549.16,"body":"Yes, that's the last Sean Bean in it. Also, I guess pilgrimage,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2549.46,"endTime":2553.86,"body":"if you've seen that with Tom Holland, it's a little bit in the same vein."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2554.22,"endTime":2560.84,"body":"They're having to take a relic across Ireland to deliver to the Pope's men."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2560.98,"endTime":2566.78,"body":"And the relic is the whole reason that the monastery really survives at all."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2566.78,"endTime":2572.02,"body":"So it's basically destroying their future livelihood by having to deliver it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2572.12,"endTime":2575.44,"body":"But they're trying to, and then somebody else is trying to steal it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2575.54,"endTime":2578.26,"body":"So that's got a little bit of a Dragon Warriors vibe going on."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2578.32,"endTime":2581.28,"body":"I think, the Jewel Spider. Oh, yes. So the last thing we would like to speak"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2581.28,"endTime":2582.34,"body":"to you about is the Jewel Spider."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2582.54,"endTime":2586.66,"body":"So we know that that's been in development for some time, and it's going to"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2586.66,"endTime":2591.34,"body":"be within the same world, the Land of Legends, but a different approach to how"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2591.34,"endTime":2593.94,"body":"you play within that world. Is there anything you'd like to tell us about that?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2593.94,"endTime":2598.54,"body":"And it's got bigger and bigger over the time I've been working. It is the problem."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2598.8,"endTime":2603.04,"body":"I don't want it to be like 300 pages, but that's what it's looking like at the"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2603.04,"endTime":2605.0,"body":"moment when I'm trying to do a bit of a layout."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2605.26,"endTime":2609.72,"body":"It's legend again. I was saying before, if Bloodsword was the Saturday morning"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2609.72,"endTime":2614.84,"body":"cartoon show and Dragon Warriors was the network show, this would be the streaming"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2614.84,"endTime":2619.8,"body":"show with all the blood and gore and nastiness turned up to 11, perhaps."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2620.0,"endTime":2624.72,"body":"Not that I'm trying to make it shocking, But it's just a kind of very authentically"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2624.72,"endTime":2630.08,"body":"medieval world. I've got a system which is much more pared back than Dragon"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2630.08,"endTime":2632.56,"body":"Warriors. It's not really a replacement either."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2632.74,"endTime":2635.32,"body":"It's because people have said, is this Dragon Warriors 2? And I said,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2635.4,"endTime":2639.32,"body":"well, no, if you want lots of tactical gaming, then Dragon Warriors is still"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2639.32,"endTime":2641.22,"body":"the one I'd use. But this is for..."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2641.8,"endTime":2645.36,"body":"People who don't really want to do a lot of dice rolling and they mostly want"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2645.36,"endTime":2652.34,"body":"it to be the talk and improv and closer to tabletop LARPing, that sort of approach."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2652.52,"endTime":2657.16,"body":"So it's a system that's designed to get out of the way of the role playing."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2657.32,"endTime":2661.8,"body":"Will you be writing new scenarios for it or encouraging people to use this system"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2661.8,"endTime":2663.88,"body":"to revisit some of the stuff?"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2663.88,"endTime":2669.72,"body":"I have done a few scenarios on my Patreon that I probably won't include in the"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2669.72,"endTime":2674.82,"body":"book because, as I say, I'm trying to cut it back from 300 pages, not make it 350."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2675.18,"endTime":2680.8,"body":"But those give you a flavor for the different kind of scenario that it would be."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2681.0,"endTime":2685.54,"body":"It's the nearest of all the Dragon Warriors scenarios to a Jewel Spider scenario"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2685.54,"endTime":2687.36,"body":"would be a box of old bones, I think."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2687.36,"endTime":2693.78,"body":"If you downplayed the tactical battle side and upped the having to use your"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2693.78,"endTime":2699.08,"body":"wits and guile and so forth, that would be the nearest. The system itself..."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2700.07,"endTime":2703.71,"body":"The basic system is only about the first 20 pages,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2703.97,"endTime":2710.03,"body":"but then the magic system is currently huge and just keeps expanding because"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2710.03,"endTime":2713.85,"body":"I've tried to build in all of the different rules of magic so that you can,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2714.09,"endTime":2718.41,"body":"once you know a particular magical phylum and mastery,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2718.73,"endTime":2722.91,"body":"you can pretty much improvise what you specifically want the spell to do."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2722.91,"endTime":2725.85,"body":"But then you drill down to how difficult is"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2725.85,"endTime":2730.53,"body":"that result to actually get that's taken up quite a big chunk because every"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2730.53,"endTime":2734.33,"body":"time i describe a spell i also give loads of examples for how it would work"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2734.33,"endTime":2739.15,"body":"and anyway i've got all the artwork which is done by inigo hartas who's the"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2739.15,"endTime":2743.41,"body":"son of leo hartas who did a lot of the original maps and some of the dragon"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2743.41,"endTime":2745.45,"body":"warriors illustrations in the paperbacks,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2746.09,"endTime":2751.79,"body":"and Inigo has done these beautiful full-colour medieval-style annals,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2752.07,"endTime":2756.51,"body":"pages to start each chapter and then various fillers, which means that I'll"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2756.51,"endTime":2763.09,"body":"have to do it as a lovely full-colour hardback to do justice to the artwork."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2763.29,"endTime":2766.97,"body":"Yeah, I think it's fantastic. Yeah, we're all looking forward to it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2767.73,"endTime":2771.95,"body":"If anyone wants to kind of get a cheap sneak peek, if they come to the Patreon"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2771.95,"endTime":2776.23,"body":"page for Jewel Spider, there's quite a few scenarios and also some of the rough"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2776.23,"endTime":2779.47,"body":"cuts of the rules although I'm changing the rules,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2780.67,"endTime":2786.79,"body":"a bit just currently to try and streamline them even more but the patreon backers"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2786.79,"endTime":2794.09,"body":"have have had various versions in pdf so far of parts of the rules so they can get to see it there we'll."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2794.09,"endTime":2795.05,"body":"Put a link up to the."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2795.05,"endTime":2796.65,"body":"To your yeah yeah so."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2796.65,"endTime":2799.99,"body":"That's something to keep an eye on and again just proof that this this game"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2799.99,"endTime":2803.71,"body":"has got so much more life left in it so that that's always appealing i think"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2803.71,"endTime":2808.63,"body":"especially you know to see a system that's still live it's still valid and still"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2808.63,"endTime":2813.47,"body":"new things being creative for it a lot of us old school gamers settle back into"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2813.47,"endTime":2814.85,"body":"old editions of games and,"},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2815.39,"endTime":2818.29,"body":"never see the light of day again and you know it's."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2818.29,"endTime":2818.83,"body":"Great that you've."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2818.83,"endTime":2823.77,"body":"Kept up with us dave with all of this and you've encouraged and allowed everything to progress as it."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2823.77,"endTime":2827.19,"body":"Well i think i always think the only risk is you know alan garner"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2827.19,"endTime":2832.25,"body":"who did the weird stone of brisingerman and then something like 50 years later"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2832.25,"endTime":2837.01,"body":"he did the third book in the trilogy and lots of people said oh i didn't like"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2837.01,"endTime":2840.95,"body":"the third book it was nothing like the first two and you think well you know"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2840.95,"endTime":2845.33,"body":"50 he's 50 years older and i think well i'm 40 years older so it is going to be,"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2846.11,"endTime":2851.01,"body":"different and that's why i keep saying it's it's a different take on legend"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2851.01,"endTime":2856.27,"body":"and hopefully people will feel it's not intended to destroy or replace dragon"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2856.27,"endTime":2859.43,"body":"warriors if that's what they like that it won't ruin that it will just give"},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2859.43,"endTime":2861.55,"body":"them some extra stuff to add brilliant."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2861.55,"endTime":2864.47,"body":"But it's been an absolute pleasure so thanks for taking the time to."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2864.47,"endTime":2865.59,"body":"Talk thank you thanks."},{"speaker":"Track 7","startTime":2865.59,"endTime":2866.17,"body":"A lot for you."},{"speaker":"Track 6","startTime":2866.17,"endTime":2866.73,"body":"Thanks guys."}]}