There we go, we'll see if it does it again. Are you getting like a percentage thing? where it says that it's uploading. So I just in my frame, it says 99 % and then in your frame it says 0%. That's weird. now it says 53 % uploaded in my theme. And what is uploaded mean? That's so strange. Like say. This is so funny. 78 % uploaded. Yeah, and yours says 100%. Hmm. Well, it's probably fine. I feel like it's, it seems to me like it's, when it says uploaded, it's like storing our conversation on the cloud or whatever it does. Mine's now at 90. 70 % again. Maybe it's something that just kind of fluctuates and goes up and down. I don't know. If it hasn't kicked you off, I assume it's okay. Hopefully. Yeah. Okay, let's just do it. So I'll just in a second, I'll be like, Ruby, thanks for coming on. And then I'll be like, why don't you just like introduce yourself? And then What do you want me to, is there anything that you don't want me to ask you about? Is there anything that you like, do we just? What do you want to chat, like have you decided what you want to chat about? well I thought maybe you could talk a little bit about like... Have you got a kid? he's like, am I on camera? When you put, when you did pants, I'm like, does he need to to the toilet? That's so funny. Yeah, go. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. So funny. I was just going to say we could talk a little bit about like chiropractic stuff if you wanted to and you could, I don't know, like this is something that I don't know like anything about. So I'm just so curious and interested to hear like, I guess in particular around birth and like what you would do with pregnant women. And then maybe we could talk about your birth stories as well if you wanted to share. Like, I don't know if you wanted to. talk about like, this was my favorite birth and this is why, and then this was like my hardest one and this is why or whatever. We can just, it can be so casual. And then I guess the only other thing is to try and cap it at like an hour. But yeah, we can just, we can just see how we go. Cool, sounds good. The Chiro stuff won't take ages. I mean, it depends how much we bounce back from each other. Okay cool. Do you want to start with the Chiro stuff and then get into the birth things after? What do you think? What do you like it? Yeah. All right. Well, let's wait for you to stop making sounds in the room. then he's now now got clothes on. was so surprised at how quiet it is. Are your kids all home? Okay. Okay, love it. I was like, wow, your kids are so quiet. Mondays are the good day. so good. Yeah, because then I have work Tuesday, Thursday. So the kids are like either have preschool or daycare. But I have work. So Mondays is like the day that it's just house admin, you know, get stuff done. Yeah. so nice. Love it. Okay, so why don't you tell us about yourself, who you are, what you do, kick us off. Yep, so I'm Ruby. I am a mother of five. I feel like I say that first nowadays because it takes up the most time. So five under four and a half. So Frankie, my eldest was four and a half when Lottie, the baby was born. And then everyone kind of go, how is that possible? So Frankie is now, I guess, coming on five and a half. Alfie is coming on four. Then we've got twin girls, so Sadie and Polly, fraternal, and then Lottie, who is 10 months now. And then outside of mum life, I am a chiropractor. So I've been a chiro for I think about 10 years and love it. I do a lot of work with pregnant women, babies, postpartum, that sort of niche. just because it's always interested me and then I think since being a mom I you know developed that interest even further and then Loved it so much since having my kids that I went back to Union studying with Wifre That was all going well until I Felt pregnant and I was very unwell and in hindsight I was so unwell because I was pregnant with twins and so I ended up deferring the degree then and then have had three kids since so I haven't gotten back to the degree which is I think we I had mentioned to you that I had started kind of going down the Doola Avenue and so I started kind of doing my own staff and building up little sheets and bits and pieces before fully committing to doing the training. And then in standard Ruby world, my computer crashed. hadn't backed it up and I everything. yeah, yeah. Yes. So I'm back to sort of not square one with that, but you know, I've lost a lot. yeah, we're slowly building that dream back up. And I'm kind of navigating where I want to go with it because I think where I've landed, And probably from even chatting to people like you, knowing that I don't want to be in a hospital full time. I love my job already. And really the primary reason that I went back to do midwifery was to upskill. It wasn't to have a career shift. It was to incorporate more knowledge into my current job. So I feel as though I can actually better do that and help women a lot better by being a doula. because I can be there for the whole journey, which I kind of am already doing my job, but yeah, more, I guess be more knowledgeable and be more present in that part of their journey. Yeah. Yeah. And did you, I'm gonna ask you all about the benefits of chiropractic care when you're pregnant and postpartum and all the things, but just out of interest, did you, how did you, like did you do much chiropractics when you were pregnant with your own babies? Was that something that you used a lot and what was your experience like? Yeah. So I've always worked in like a family based clinic. So always in clinics that serve the whole family from newborn to geriatric basically, you know, from one end of the spectrum to the other and loved and kind of being like gravitated towards kids. And then when I felt pregnant with Well, actually my first pregnancy, unfortunately, was a miscarriage. Yeah, thank you. But unfortunately, it's the reality of a lot of what we go through. Makes it all the more joyous when the next one comes around. But yes, so when I can see the first time I was working full time, like a lot of hours, and one of the clinics that I worked in had a woman who was doing a further paediatric. chiropractic degree. And so she was super interested in it and had Chiro my entire pregnancy that pregnancy. And I ended up miscarrying it like 13 weeks. So whether like pregnancy chiropractic for that particular baby wasn't as impactful because obviously, you know, the the impact of bodywork in the early stages aren't as significant as they're needed down the track when all of your biomechanics, et cetera, are changing. from there, Frankie was the next bummer. And I ended up working there the whole time through that pregnancy and was treated multiple times a week because I could, right? We all looked after each other and we treat each other as much as we could. because you can and it's great to, it's always good to do things for yourself. And so yes, I would get treated every week, if not multiple times a week. And honestly, other than vomiting my guts up for 18 weeks straight, physically, like I would say that I would thrive in second, third trimester just because I never was in. I always was moving well. was able to go to the gym as much as I wanted and it never impacted my way of life once I overcome that horrible nausea period. And I do believe that a significant component of that was because I was getting chiro. Obviously luck of the draw as well. I'm actually also fortunate enough to be young having my baby. So I think that that probably worked in my favourites. but yeah, I do. think that a lot of it contributed to the fact that I was having regular chiro. So I guess with that, continue to do the same thing for the rest of my pregnancies. I then had obviously the workload of looking after toddlers as well. and then the twin pregnancy was even harder on me, but I was able to work through to 35 weeks as a chiro with a twin pregnancy, which I think is pretty. phenomenal considering how like hands-on and physical the job is. So yeah, my body held up very well. And I guess not only, which we can chat about, but not only does Kyra help you throughout the pregnancy with any symptoms or ailments that you might be experiencing, a lot of what we do is about preparing mom and bub by proxy. to have the most straightforward birth that you can have. So yeah, encouraging our posture and alignment to assist us if your goal is to have a vaginal birth, to be in the best possible position to allow for that. So for me, I think again, really fortunate to have had that tool in my tool belt to assist me with my first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always love chatting to moms about how much we can do to, I guess, just make us as likely as possible to have the birth that we hope for. Like, I think there's so much out there, you know, like this narrative of like, you know, you can't control birth. It's completely outside of your hands. And there is some truth to that. Like, obviously there are things about birth that we can't control. There is so much that we can do, you know, you can decide like what model of care you're going to be in, whether you hire a doula, whether you look after your body, how you eat, how you move, like all of these things can work together and have a really big impact. So it's so cool. And I think on that note as well, you won't ever know which things you did and which you didn't do that contributed to your overall experience, right? And so it's like, why not throw the kitchen sink at it and do all of the good things to help you as much as you can? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I love it. I'm so the same. feel like even, even though the weird and wonderful little things like eating dates and like all those funny things, I'm like, why not? Like there's no harm in it. You know, there's some evidence that says that it's helpful. Some evidence is like, you know, it's inconclusive. We don't know, but it's like, it's definitely not dangerous. Like you may as well do all the things. Well, did you know a pineapple? Have you heard of pineapple as the newest thing? They've just done. Yeah, they've just done a study in the UK which has given preliminary research to show that consuming pineapple in birth prep helps. It's something to do with that. Yeah, yeah. So it's something to do with the enzyme in pineapple that helps, yeah, with effacement and ripening. Hilarious. Love it. some pineapple. Why not? You know, like, nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Totally. I mean, as you said, there's no harm in it. You may as well do all the things and yeah, 100%. What are some of the most common ailments you're mentioning about helping with symptom management and stuff like that? I mean, I imagine it's things like a sore back and even like pelvic pain. Like are those some of the things that you see really often? Yeah, so in regards to like, yeah, things that people would come to you during a pregnancy, most commonly like lower back pain for sure, and sciatica, so that you do know what sciatica is like the nerves pain down into the leg. They're the two most common by far. But then also, yeah, pelvic pain, pubic bone pain, super common. Even like people are getting upper back pain and and headaches and everything because your whole mechanics is changing, right? Also like as your belly grows, that pelvic tilt shifts. So you're starting to load up areas in your body that you're not used to loading up. And you also have a counter load because your body is trying to keep you upright. And so your upper back's working harder and your breasts are potentially growing and all of those sort of things. So you're just loading up areas that your normal structure is not used to holding. Yeah. And then you've got all the hormonal shift too, which contributes to so many symptoms as well. know, people come in in second trimester, for example, you've got that huge relaxant surge and they're like, why am I always already feeling terrible and I'm tiny? And I'm like, it's not actually the weight that you're carrying, it's the relaxant that's pumping through your body and all of your ligaments are starting to loosen up and they're not meant to in hindsight, like, well they are. to help you support, like to support the process your body is going through to allow a baby to come out of you because you want to have that extra space and fluidity and flexibility in your pelvis. But right now you need stability to get you through the rest of the pregnancy. And they're like, okay. It's not actually to do with the physical load I'm carrying. It's the fact that those supportive structures aren't doing what they normally do. So it's about kind of getting them through those stages as well. There's so many different things that happen that aren't just your textbook, my lower back's sore, you know. Yeah, wow. And is there much evidence that shows that doing chiropractic work can increase your odds of having a vaginal birth, like working with your pelvis and all of that? Like is there, I'm so interested. there's lots of study going on. guess like with any, like we were just chatting about with anything, you can't prove solely that that was a contributing factor, right? What it does prove is that you are, yes, giving yourself the, you're increasing the space by allowing postural change in the area. by giving your body the ideal the best way to explain it. Getting your pelvis into ideal alignment allows Barb to also sit in the ideal position. So it basically goes hand in hand with the concept of optimal fetal positioning, right? Because if you are in a really twisted position, if that means a better word, your baby is compensating. for their lack of space in certain areas, et cetera. Not just about positioning, but also it's about the ability to get the baby to fall and sit properly on the cervix as well. Because again, as you would know with birth, you need that proper engagement at cervical stimulation to progress labor, right? So if Fab is in... lost my word, descending appropriately onto this and giving that cervical stimulation, which happened to me actually with Lottie's birth just passed, that you potentially don't get that dilation. can get like your body is telling you to push, but if you're not getting that adequate cervical stimulation, then they won't, then you won't dilate and allow yourself to get to that transitional point basically. So Yeah, there's so much, there's yes, there's so much to nut out in that regard. But yes, in summary, allowing mum to be in best structural position in regards to her anatomy, getting her body moving as best as possible as well, allows for bub to have the ideal chance in getting into their optimal position as well. Yeah, so cool. I often use this analogy with my clients that I feel like is exactly what you're talking about, where I think very often you'll hear women are told things like, know, your pelvis is too narrow, or which literally the medical term for that just for anyone. Yes, it's actually less than 1%. It's one in every 250 pregnancies. The woman will have what's called cephalopelvic. disproportion I think is the acronym CPD. Not to be confused with SPD, which I'm sure you have so many clients coming in for that. SPD is common. That one's super common. But this idea of, you know, the baby's not going to fit through your pelvis. But I mean, if you think of, and this is the analogy I was going to say, if you think of like a shape sorter, like you know how the little kid shape sorting thing where you put the triangle through the triangle hole or whatever. If you are holding that that shape at an angle that isn't ideal, then of course the triangle is not going to want to go through the triangle hole, you know? But if you hold the triangle properly in the right way, then it's going to fit perfectly. Like if you hold it skew, of course it's going to not, it's, you know, it's not going to go in properly. And so much of the time, I feel like it's the same when it comes to birth. Like if, if our baby and our pelvis are not at the right like angle or, know, and also every woman and baby is a unique little team. Like I think we can sometimes be so obsessed in the birth world with this like LOA presentation, which for anyone listening, that's left occiput anterior. So that means that baby would be head down facing ever so slightly towards the maternal left. So the mom's left and then not posterior. So like baby's spine is against mom's tummy. We are obsessed with this presentation and it's like, I mean, obviously it's true that I think for the majority of women, this is the ideal position of the baby. But we also have to trust that sometimes nature is clever. Most of the time, nature is very clever. very often, I mean, there's this story that I love. This woman had, I think she had like four or five home births and every single time her babies would come out breech. Every time she had breech babies. And these straightforward births, no complications, everything was fine. And it's like, think there's so much to be said for if you are in really good alignment and if you are doing all the things, then your baby is going to settle into whatever the optimal position is for your baby. And there's so much that goes into it, like you're saying, like, you know, we have different shaped pelvises, the different shaped uteruses, so. Yeah, doing all of this stuff just I think is so helpful to give your baby and your body the best chance. to be in alignment, whatever that is for you, whether it's LOA or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I totally agree. People get fixated on that concept. And often I am having that same chat with clients because we all commonly get people refer to us who have breach bubs or posterior bubs that just aren't bludging basically. And often we get them sent to us quite late, which can be really hard as well because it takes a lot of work to get a body working as best as possible. Yeah, in those end stages, Bob is getting comfy. You you are getting bigger. The space is getting smaller. But I guess for us as well is getting, like I said, getting body into the best position. And even if they leave our office and baby isn't in LOA, then that's okay, because we're giving them as much space as we can. We're giving you the tool as many tools as we can. then do help bub get into the position they need to be in to birth. And you're right, like how many people birth, posterior, or breach are away, right? Like it's not straightforward and there are anatomical anomalies and some bubs prefer to be in a breach position and that's okay. Yeah, so it's just, yeah, it's about making it as easy as possible. For sure, for sure. Yeah, so good. I love that. And then I'm so excited as well to hear all about your birth experiences. I mean, having had five babies, it's just so cool. Yeah. like, yes, I would say there's a spectrum for sure. So where do we start? Frankie. Frankie was my top. Yep. So first birth Frankie. Frankie is definitely the toughest, which on paper is quite common, I think. Well, not I think. We know that first births are usually the hardest because our know the female body has a beautiful way of improving every time and making it easier and easier whether it's the muscle memory or the know efficiency of the uterus etc. So Frankie was I had 10 days of like prodromal like Wow, that's hard, gosh. hard. So every night from like probably 10 until five, I had five minute apart contraction. So D said, you know, like it wasn't just a little niggle here and there. And every night I thought I was going into labor, but because it was steady, it was consistent. And then the sun would rise and the contractions just went away. yeah. Yeah. labor is hard but when it's at nighttime instead of in the day like at least if it was in the day you could sleep at night yeah. Thankfully, like they weren't painful enough that I wasn't able to sleep. So I was obviously going in and out and still getting some rest, which was good. In hindsight, was because he was posterior, basically, like he just wasn't in that ideal position for me. We've got to be careful now after the last cat that we just had because I have birthed a posterior baby. So, you know, but for that birth, Yeah, it just wasn't, he just wasn't properly getting me to that end point basically to properly kick over into that sort of more active labor. yes, 10 days to the point where, speaking of model of care, so where I live, so where I live, I was probably like one of the first of my group of friends that had kids. And my local hospital, anyone I knew that had given birth there recently had had a really bad experience. Which for me, I guess, in two parts, I consider myself reasonably educated in that arena, but also you're kind of taking word for mouth and wanting to relate to people who have gone through a similar experience. So that's... really deterred me away from that hospital. And so I started doing all of my research into what my other options are basically. And for me, I have always felt comfortable in the medical system. It's never impacted me in regards to my mental health or anxiety or anything associated with it. So I was comfortable at birth at a hospital for sure. I knew that it wouldn't impact my progression of because I felt safe there, I trusted the system, but I also knew that it wasn't going to probably contribute to it hindering my progression as well. So I then basically looked into who was the best private obstetrician that supported the birth that I wanted. And the person I landed on, couldn't speak more highly of. So I ended up birthing for all of them. Because I think by the end of it, I was like, well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? Like, you know, it's comfortable, it's safe, I know it. Knowing full well, probably, to be honest, well, the twins are different story again, but come Lottie, I was like, I'm probably not even gonna make it to the hospital. And that's fine with me, you know, like I was happy to give birth at home, totally couldn't like, you know, I trusted my body in its entirety, but I was like, and again, I'll touch on it now, but I have very fast births. Okay. I was like, the chances that I won't make the hospital, it's fine and cool. Like Michael, let's have the conversation that you might be, know, catching this baby at home with nobody potentially. yes, so with Frankie, back to Frankie, first birth. 10 days along and I'm kind of going, know, like what's happening here sort of thing. Also, sorry, when did you change care providers? Was this before the prodromal labor started or was it somewhere in the middle? no, so when I was pregnant, I was looking into what model of care I would do and that's when I decided. So I never ended up going down the public hospital route because I just didn't trust the hospital that I was in a catchment for basically. Which is why I ended up going right. No, no, No, yeah, yeah. yeah, no, set in stone from the get-go. Well, as soon as it needed to be. So then the one look, and at the time I was comfortable with it because I had been like having this 10 day elongated labor experience. And so the obstetrician said, look, I think we need, need is a strong word, very strong word to break your waters. I think you should come in and have your waters broken. And I didn't feel comfortable with it. And so I said no. which was fine. He completely respected that decision. There was never any pressure towards it other than the conversation, suppose, other than the offer. And I acknowledge the fact that I'm really fortunate to be in a position to advocate for myself in that regard, because it could have been a different experience for a lot of women. But for me, that was fine. And I guess having that in the back of my head, I knew that if it needed to be down the track, it was there for me. So that was on a Monday we had the conversation and that night I went into proper established labour. So maybe I wonder if it was just that someone needed to tell me you've got an out if you need it. I don't know who knows but yes so I went into labour properly that night which I didn't know until well I guess the next morning because if the standard thing happened I went into the 10 o'clock you know contractions and then they just started building up and building up. Gosh, so you thought like, this is just this prodromal thing again. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And so it ended up like building up quickly from there. And I think it was about four o'clock or so that I kind of made the call that I was ready to head into the hospital. And we got there soon after within reason. And unfortunately, I had a horrible midwife. Yeah, so I guess for me, like I that was kind of a reflective point as well, because I'm like, you can see how you can have them impact your experience negatively and positively. And I don't think at the time I knew how much it impacted my experience. I do now because I've had small four kids since. I can contrast it to that experience, but... So basically when I got there, within, I mean, it's all blurry at this point, but within an hour of being there, she, like I was uncomfortable and kind of wanting to know where to go from here. And I had bought all of my tools, my tense machine, my massager, my ball, my, and I hadn't touched anything because I wanted to have that to go to. and kind of progress with my tools. I didn't want to just use everything and be stuck with nothing by the end of it, right? And so Michael's asking me, can I get you anything? And I was like, no, I'm doing really well. And there was just then this moment that it clicked and I was in so much pain basically. And Frankie had moved further posterior. And so it was just that chronic back to back. non-stop contraction and it didn't end. I didn't get a break between contractions. I had that constant pain and so I called the midwife in wanting some guidance and her first, the first thing she said when she came into the room was, first time mum? you won't get through it without any pain relief. And obviously little old me at what, 27 was like, okay, sure, I take your word for it. Because you know, you're the experienced one, expert. And of course that changed the course of my birth, because I gave into the fear probably at that point. And so we started on gas and I was off my chops. Yeah. the least, like I had lost complete control of my body. Like I was genuinely laughing, crying, I was gnashing my teeth. I was like, it was horrible. And I couldn't control how I was feeling. And so that's when we made the call that I needed to have an epidural because I just wanted to regain some control of the situation. And so then from there, It was the cascade of intervention. It was textbook basically. Like I had an epidural, an episiotomy. I had a force of lift. Have you ever had that? So basically, so he his heart rate started declining and so they needed to get him out the past hour. But I had been pushing for not ages to be honest for a first birth. It was over an hour, but under two, well truly. And he was just getting caught at the end. at, yeah. And so basically they caught it a lift where they literally just needed to guide him out at the end. But yes, the whole shebang, the recovery wasn't great, but I didn't know that as well. Like I just thought that that was what birth recovery was. I ended up having, obviously within a episiotomy, I had whole bunch of stitches and and stuff to work through ended up having a minor prolapse from it which again didn't get diagnosed until after my fourth like after having the twins because I didn't know any different like I I had you know when I was recovering from the birth if I coughed or sneezed I'd wee but I kind of didn't really know what was going on down there because there's so much happening that I was like, well, you know, what fluid is it all? Like you just, you don't know. And then, yes. So that's what, and then with exercise when I was back running, I, yeah, that that's when I kind of knew that things weren't right. But then I conceived Alfie and it was, it was a roller coaster from there. Cause it was back to back pregnancies and everything. So after, so then we had Alfie, Alfie was a a sneeze and he was out, which was the most beautiful contrast to Frankie's birth. after, actually, probably a good thing to note with like, so after Frankie's birth, I think I went into his birth. I was so used to having conversations with all of my clients about their births and what they were doing to work towards having their optimal experience or you know, do scenario, but I hadn't and you know, like birthing techniques and calm birth techniques and all of this sort of stuff, which I do concurrently with my treatment is to educate them as well. And I think in hindsight, I thought that because I had those tools, I knew how to implement them for myself, but I didn't I'd never actually kind of done that work myself. Yeah. Yeah. after Frankie's birth with, when I was pregnant with Alfie, I went and did she birth, which I can't speak more highly of. It's such an awesome course to do. And even, I remember walking out of the course with Michael and he was just like, even I feel more in control. Like I can contribute because when she hit the fan with Frankie's birth, Michael felt helpless because he, we didn't really practice anything. So it was a really aha moment like knowing, yeah, you got to actually put the work in and practice it because just because you know stuff doesn't mean that you can implement it. Frank, Alfie, how are we going with time? Okay, so with Alfie, Alfie was a Boxing Day due date. I was like, let's Come on little man, let's get you in earlier. I'd love you not to be born on Christmas. So he's number two. And very reflective of his personality. He's an absolute go-getter as the birth also will show you. So Alf, I went into labor at... Again, I think the way my body works is that I like... I don't have breast and hipsters, I have contractions. Like as in, in those lead up weeks, my body's clearly doing a lot already that you would argue to say is early labor. So that when my labor actually kicks off, I almost instantly get into active labor basically. So I went to the hospital at six, seven, and he was born at eight 30. Whoa. Yeah, so I got to the hospital and I was four centimeters dilated. Means nothing, but you know, as for context. And within an hour and a half, I had birth control. And this is so important that women share this stuff because so often if you rock up to the hospital feeling like things are really intense and you hear, I'm four centimeters, so many women would go, what? Like if this is four centimeters, then I can't do it. you know, but it's like he was out like an hour and a bit after that. Like it doesn't mean anything. Yeah, that's amazing. That's so cool. and that comment alone rings true with Lottie's birth, which we can get to, but very much so. So yeah, within an hour and a half Alfie was born. And for me that was wild because, I mean, not that Frankie's birth was long. He was born at 11.30am. So it was only seven, eight hours, which is, I think, pretty monumentous for a first birth, right? yeah. And so yeah, like I remember with Alfie, I was at the point where nothing was comfortable. And I was like trying all these positions and the midwife was phenomenal. And she was like, look, let's get you, I was on my hands and knees on the floor and she was like, look, let's get you up on, let's change positions. And I was like, like I'm at the point where even, you know, trying to change a position right now, it's not gonna happen. And somehow we did it. I got up onto the bed and I was leaning on the back of the headrest and on all fours again. And she was like, you're doing phenomenally, of which I was. And she was like, someone was giving birth down the hallway and they needed her. And so she's like, I've just got to duck down to the other birth. I'll be back in 20 minutes, whatever. Great. And at that time I was like, hey, this is getting really uncomfortable here. you know, and I was like, is it working? Yep. Can you hear me now? Yep. she ducked down the hallway and she was like, I'll be 20 minutes. Yeah, okay. And so then I was like, this is like, we're getting uncomfortable here. But, and I was like, and then I remember in this moment, I started going, yeah, I'm okay. This is getting to the point where I'm not coping. And I remember being in a contraction and thinking when this contraction finishes, I'm going to turn, I hadn't had any internal vaginal exams. So I had one when I got to the hospital, which I was okay with. And then I asked for no more unless I requested them. And so I hadn't had one from when I got there at four centimeters, right? So I remember being in my mind and going, after this contraction, I need to turn to Michael and ask him to get the midwife back because I either need, can you hear me? can hear you. Yeah, I just muted myself because I'm plugging in my laptop. But I can hear you. good, good. So I remember looking at looking over to Michael and going I need like I need to get the midwife back because I want her I need her to assess where I'm at. Like I'm at a point where I want to know because I'm in a lot of pain. I'm hoping that you're comfortable with me using the term pain. Yeah, right. Totally. Totally. I'm like, I'm in a lot of pain and we're either at the point where I need some assistance in that department or I'm pushing this baby out. Like we're at the finish line kind of thing. Literally. And after that contraction finished, I felt a stud and the fetal ejection reflex went into full throttle. Like I can't describe to you how phenomenal that experience was. Like it was just... still get like shivers from it. was the freaking best, like, So my body just was actively started pushing and I'm looking at Michael going, what is going on? Because I'd had Frankie's birth as a contrast as well, where it was like a real active management of it. And this was just my body doing, doing what it was meant to do, right? And I had no, there was no one in the room because they were all at the other birth. And so Michael's like, Michael runs down the hallway, he's belting down the hallway going, I need advice, my wife is pushing. And so they're like two midwives run back into the room and I still had my undies on because I didn't think I was anywhere near it. So they're ripping my like ones on either side, they're ripping my undies off. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And Alfie's head was there and she was like, yep. And literally two pushes later. He was here. Like it was just phenomenal, like so beautiful. And I remember leaving that birth just going, how fucking good are women? Like it was just the most empowering experience. And I felt so accomplished having gone through that in contrast to Frankie's. And it was just so beautiful to have everything go as I had hoped it would. So yeah, that was really lovely. And then the twins, the twins were after Alfie. So the twins are 14 months younger than Alfie. close. Obviously, like a twin pregnancy is high risk on paper, right? The second that it's multiples. Fortunately, I had pretty straightforward experience. Polly, who was twin too, had a couple of like ultrasound funnies, that she, one of her, like her umbilical arterial outflow of one of her arteries was intermittently going up, I think, or something was funny, something was going on with it. But she'd also get normal readings. So I ended up having to have a fair few scans. I think I was down to a weekly scan, if not maybe even more at the end of the pregnancy because they wanted, although she was getting normal, it was a weird one because they said, If there's something really wrong, they can't ever get a normal rating. It's something to do with that. And so they're like, we're not really alarmed, but we really need to heavily monitor it because things can go south quickly. she, so that was it. Yeah. Like let's say from 32 weeks on, I was quite heavily monitored. Mind you, they say for twins that full term is 36 weeks. yeah, twin pregnancy is 36 weeks. On paper. And so, yeah, full term is 36 weeks. That doesn't mean that that's just like 40 weeks for a single term. doesn't mean that that's when they let you go to a stash. And so, yes, we were getting heavily monitored about that. She also had increased, like she had polyhydramesis, polyhydramesis, yeah, so increased fluid. And so we were just monitoring that. And then we got to a point where they just basically said like, So I got to 36, a scan at 36 weeks and they were like, it's still funny. They're still doing really well, but at this point they're safer out than in. And we don't want to risk it because things can switch overnight basically. And so there was a chat of induction. For me induction, fortunately, well, even with Frankie, I had started dilating before going into. labour but I knew being my third birth that I was a great candidate for an induction as such because my body had gone through it already. The best candidate is probably a better candidate is probably the right way to say it. And so for me I so then I had an appointment with obstetrician the day before. Was this the same obstetrician? you said, yeah, okay, so all of your babies you had the same. That's so nice that you felt like you trusted them and that you built up like... I have like, withdrawals now. I feel like I just want to go and see him all the time because he's just such a beautiful human as well. now it's like when you break up with your obstetrician or your midwife, like it's such a weird or your doula. It's such a weird concept. They've been with you through the best times of your life. Yeah, it's really sad, it's always awful saying goodbye. I'm always like, have another baby really soon so that we can hang out again. Well after, so we had planned to only have four and then after, so when I called the obstetrician with Lottie, when I was pregnant with Lottie, I called them and I said, and they knew me, obviously, yeah, yeah. And so, but we'd had, you know, five years of knowing it. Well, I probably only had a few months really in between, I did, between, giving birth and getting back into the system being pregnant again. So I was besties with them. And so I called and I said, Hi, it's Ruby, Ruby Calloway blah, blah, blah. And they're like, and they immediately went quiet. And then I was like, and they're like, my God. And then I said, I've got a question for you. And they're like, thank gosh. I was so worried you were going to tell me you pregnant again. Like jokingly, like it was really like I had a conversation and I said, well, I'm sorry, but the question I was going to ask is how many people do you know that are stupid enough to have five kids? And they were just like, no. And I was like, yep, it's me. I'm that person. Yeah. yes. So back to the twins. Yes. So appointment with obstetricians day before I had the induction hooked in for the next morning. For me, an induction was they were going to break my waters basically because I was already again, had already been, like I've got wild videos of my belly, like contracting in the weeks before and it would go from like huge obviously to this like rectangle, like it would, it's wild. And so the appointment before the induction, I had an internally exam just to see where we're at, to see if I was able just to go straight to, obviously my water's being broken, of which I was, I think I was already, it was over like at least two centimeters. So they were comfortable enough to know that it would be fine. Got to the hospital the next morning. I think I was nearly four centimeters already on the morning of. whether, who knows, but what the due date was going to, the birth date was going to be if the induction didn't happen. But so it's quite like a medicalised approach because of the high risk. So I had to have an epidural. line inserted it didn't have to be on it had to be like they called it they called it like a twilight basically just to make sure that they knew that it was working but i didn't have to have it up so basically with you probably know but with twins the risk of that it's primarily the second baby being an emergency caesar or even just a stigmic like an internal retrieval basically where they have to quickly and somewhat aggressively to some extent going and get the second bub out very quickly is quite high. And to do that, you would want to have some pain relief basically, especially of course with a caesarean like, and it's a matter of it being a high emergency category rather than, you know, a lower emergency category, they need to get them out ASAP. So epidural line was in. This was all at like 7 a.m. let's say. And the girls were born at 10 or 10.30, something like that. So again, like a really fast birth, which was great. I wasn't able to really actively move around or anything because I had the epidural line in, but I was able to feel everything, which was fantastic to the point where the obstetrician had gone. I joke because he missed Alfie's birth because it was so fast. And I was always joking with him saying like, you better be here. If there's a birth that I want you to be at, it would be the twins. know, like just because there's a little bit more to consider. And he had gone and then I was like, I said to the midwife, I'm like, I am ready to push. can feel Bob is there. And they're like, you know, like, you sure? And I'm like, have like, I know that I have an epidural in but I feel like I'm feeling everything and they just didn't believe it because obviously with an epidural, it slows everything down, right? So they were anticipating that they were going to have hours to just, you know, twiddle their fingers and the obstetrician would go and get coffee and come back or whatever it was. And I was like, no, this is happening now. And so with a twin birth, you have to have the healthcare providers for each baby, right? So in a private, well, no, it's not in a private in a public setting as well. You have to have an obstetrician per child, right? Because it's high risk. So in the room, I had four midwives, two obstetricians, a special care nurse and an ICU. So what's that? 10 people? Sorry, that's what it was a special care nurse and a pediatrician. That's Yeah. So what, like 10 people or something? I couldn't count less, like whatever, you know, the more the merrier. And not many people get to see a vaginal twin birth, right? So for them, it was awesome. To the point where there was one midwife, I think it was quite a quiet night on the ward and, sorry, in delivery. And so one of the midwives was like, hey, do you mind if I come in? I'm like, you can come in, but you have to film and take photos of the birth. I'm like, you can be in the room, but you need a purpose. I love it. all these beautiful, because I wasn't able to have a birth photographer with that birth because I think it was during COVID. There was restrictions. Yeah. So I had one with Frankie and then I couldn't have one with Alfie and the twins. And then I had one with Lottie, which is awesome. So, so special, so special. And then so with the twins, yeah. I remember being kind of like the obstetrician chatting to me beforehand saying, The first one is normally straightforward, especially for people who have had kids before. You you usually have a vaginal birth for twin one if they are like head down. Great. That was one of the prerequisites for having a vaginal birth is that they wanted twin one to be head down. Okay, so if twin two was breached, the OB didn't mind that so much. And poly was, so poly was breach. But not an issue, even if they're transverse, anything, it's not an issue because the reality is basically when the first baby is out, all of the space changes, right? Because it all opens up. So the role of the second obstetrician was actually to keep twin two in position. So once you birth, So, and that was the real... like moment of truth basically in the birth is like once Sadie was out right and I remember him saying it will be quite intense between the two because that's where things can happen and so we have the second off stitch second off situation was literally like holding Polly like this in my belly and it took I think they were birth minutes apart. So it took 15 minutes to actually, she was so high up in my tummy. It was actually to get her down into the birth canal that took so long. And then it was two pushes later and she was out. But I had to push her all the way into the birth canal. So that took, yeah, let's say 15 minutes or so. And that was when, you know, everyone was biting their nails in the, in the room. And then I remember when she had engaged or at least gotten down far enough. The second obstetrician stepped away and I just had this wave rush over me of like, we're here. Like we've done it. And that was just yeah, like honestly, I still get emotional about it was just the best feeling knowing we're okay, like we're safe. And you've done it, like you've achieved what you were hoping that you would. And so Michael had Sadie who was 21. for skin to skin while I was birthing Holly and then... was he standing right next to you? Could he see everything and he was like right there? just off to the side. But yes, mean, next to me as much as you can when there's that many people involved in the birth. And then I received Polly and then Sadie came and it was beautiful. That's third birth. And then fourth birth, Lottie, who we also call Satan in our household because she has just absolutely turned our lives upside down with everything going on with her. But jokes aside, because of the other two prior births, we were like, this could be incredibly fast. Because on paper, you get more and more efficient the more kids you have, right? So I'm like, would joke saying I'm going to literally sneeze this child out. Because Alfie was an hour and a half. What record are we breaking kind of thing from here? And so I got to the hospital with her and had it was textbook the same as Alfie's birth. As in I just laid it around the room. I was just walking, had my TENS machine, which is like crack cocaine for a pregnant woman. It is like the bee's knees. That's all I used for Alfie and Lottie. And I remember getting to the point that I got to with Alfie and I'm like, we're here. Like this is the level I was at when I started, my body just started involuntarily pushing bub out. Like I've made it. So then I did the same thing. like to the mid, because I was waiting, I didn't want to have an internal check. And so I was waiting to start pushing because I felt I was at that point. And I ended up, it just wasn't happening. taking ages and taking the pain, like I was getting to a point where I was not coping again. And I was like, I'm going to need to have some pain relief. I'm just not, not coping. And I was so locked in on, I standing at the edge of the bed, just like swaying and I couldn't get out of that position. And the midwife was like, well, to do an examination, I'm going to have to get you into a better position so that I can assess you. And I was like, okay, well, Because she'd prior asked me to change positions to see if it would help move things away. And I just was like, I felt as if every muscle in my body had contracted into that one position and I just couldn't get in. And then when I, yeah, yeah. And then when I knew I had to be examined, I had to change positions. So I got up on the, and she'd asked me to. She wanted to use a peanut ball between my legs. And she was like, I want you to be sidelined and get this peanut ball between your legs because I think that Bob is not in a great position. And I said, is, and I said, is, are they, I didn't know, are they posterior? And she said, yeah, they're posterior. And I was like, And then I'm getting flashbacks of like, okay, Frankie, like that's what happened with Frankie. Like no wonder things aren't progressing. We're getting a bit, you know, it's stagnant here. Mmm. And basically like we were chatting about earlier, my body was contracting as if I was at pushing stage. So I was getting contractions that didn't stop basically. Like they were stopping with the tiniest little break in between and going again. My body was recognizing that it was ready to push, but because Lottie was posterior, she wasn't stimulating my cervix enough to completely dilate. So I ended up getting up onto the bed to have the cervical examination. And at that point I was, I think five centimeters or something. And I was like, that broke me. Talking about the number where it doesn't matter, but I was like, I can't be, I can't be. I'm at 10. Like I'm pushing out right now. Like this is where my body's telling me I'm at. And I ended up calling for an epidural. Cause I was like, I can't keep going. Yeah. I'm at my threshold here. And she was like, okay, like she knew what was, she was like, we just need to move this baby slightly and you're, pushing out in two seconds. While you're here, I'm going to give you the peanut ball. And so like, we put, had the peanut ball and I think it was, yeah, within 20 minutes, I birthed Loni. So literally the peanut ball just opened up my, and I'm like raving to everyone. I'm like, do the peanut ball, everyone. Like it's the best thing. But it just opened my pelvis up. enough to get her to rotate and then the rest is history. So yeah, I called for the epidural and I don't actually I needed I should have asked if the midwife actually called for it because I think she kind of knew where we were at and like that things would shift and that by the time if the anesthetist got there I would have already been given birth and gone and you know run run around the block and come back and have breakfast or anything. Yeah, so turns out just yeah, with that slight sort of positional change, I had the same birth as with Alfie, but yeah, why would he like, yeah, with that sort of slight positional change, how much it impacted the progression of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like it can be so helpful to understand the difference between the pelvic inlet and the pelvic outlet, like making space at the top when baby's relatively high up and then, you know, cause those are different things. Like opening your pelvis is not one thing necessarily. There's like, it's, yeah. And the difference that it makes, like when you do have a situation like that where it is causing. you know, to kind of, yeah, things stall a little bit. It can be so helpful. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So all you know, little nuances here and there that are different between all of them. But all in all, yes, a beautiful experience four times over. And I guess, yeah, in hindsight, like reflecting back on how the midwife impacted my birth with Frankie, and then I had three amazing like support teams after that. It's polarizing how different it was. yeah, completely kind of like reaffirms the importance of being, you know, supported by someone you trust who will get you through and advocate for you if you can't. you know what, I always thought I could advocate for myself and I didn't with Frankie because someone who I, I thought on paper knew me better, which no one does. Was able to, yeah, change that course of the birth for me. Yeah. insane, it's crazy. I always say you are your birth team. Like you are what you eat. You are your birth team. Because you're in labor. Like even what you were saying about you can like know all the things but it's really hard to apply all the things that you know in the heat of the moment for the mom who's in labor but also for the dad. Like it's kind of like I love the analogy of like when you do a first aid course. You know you've done the first aid course, you've learned all the stuff and it's in your head. But then when you are faced with the intense situation, so often you forget, like you're like, where do I start? What do I do? Like it can be really overwhelming. Yeah, no, definitely. Gotta practice and have those conversations as well. think also, to be honest, like and I had chatted about my birth plan as such and what I had wanted, but yeah, upon reflection, could have done so much more work beforehand and it would have probably been a different experience. So yeah, for sure, put the work in. Definitely put the work in, have the conversations, have the support team for sure. Yeah. so crazy actually, our first two births were virtually the same experience. everything that you, down to like having lots and lots of sort of early prodromal labor where nothing was really happening for a long time and then baby with posterior, really mean midwife, all the things. I was like this was literally my birth. And then the second time, my second baby flew out as well. Like it was like a two hour. My first labor was 53 hours of like proper active labor to the end and then two hours the second time. So I feel like this is crazy. It's so similar. We've just had, yeah, almost like the same. almost in shock after Alfie's birth because I just did not think I was at that point right like I was just like what this is what we can do like this that experience that I had prior isn't what it has to be you know like it was yeah why% and what you were saying about the recovery too, like I also ended up having an episiotomy and like literally identical experience and the recovery afterwards I thought was was normal and I was like, yeah, like but then the second time comparing the two I was like, whoa, this is so different. Yeah, crazy, crazy. Yeah. Absolutely. But then you just didn't have twins. So you went in ruins. Yeah, you went in ruins. Really? Yeah. time I went for one of my scans, I would say to the sonographer, like, are there two babies? Are there two babies? And they were like, no. And I was like, aw. Well, I didn't have because of the miscarriage that I had like, because we miscarried so late. I'd had scans before during that preg, everything was fine. And then I ended up having my morphology. No, not morphology. Sorry. What's a 12 to 14 week scan? Yeah, the standard. Yeah. I had it like at for pretty much the last kind of date. I was 13 and five or something, right? And that's when I found out that I had had a miscarriage basically. Bub's heart beat had stopped in that time. And so I think as like a kind of a coping mechanism for me for like following pregnancies, I always did my scans really late, just as like a, what will be will be, you know? Like let's just. go on this journey and see what comes from it. you know, scans aren't really like, I think with that first pregnancy, it showed me that if you've had, you know, this number of scans beforehand, it doesn't matter, you know, like that's not necessarily how it's gonna play out. So with the twins, I hadn't even had that scan, the 12 to 14 week scan, and I had my first obstetrician appointment. And he was like, have you had a scan yet? And I was like, no, I actually haven't. And he was like, well, come on, like, let's go. And I was like, let's go have a look. And I was like, just want to know. Like, I just want to know that there's one, you know, happy, healthy baby in there. Next minute, two babies on the scan. Like I found out at the obstetrician, just like it's a bedside scan. was having cramps. No, he was not there. Do you know what was? So do you know what was wild is? Michael the entire pregnancy he was like you're having twins and I was like fuck off basically I was like no no we're not like because he he I guess saw from an outsider's perspective how sick I was and I was just like well you you tend to get sicker every pregnancy right they say like because I don't know why that is do know why that is No, and I've actually never heard that before. But maybe it's a thing. So apparently it's got something to do with the hormone. Is it like a, I don't know, like a hormone memory thing? Maybe similar to how often you have faster labors the more babies you have. you're, yeah, maybe it's like that. So you were like, no, it's cause it's. it's just like subsequent pregnancies, you know, and I'm like, and maybe it's a girl, like, because I'd had two boys before I'm like, maybe it's a girl, you know, maybe it's just with your pregnancy patient. And Michael's just like had this inkling the entire time, to the point where he was like, you call me the second you leave the obstetrician, I like I don't trust you that like you're gonna like, you know, hold this secret from me. So I actually got the obstetrician to call him. I should show you the video. I made a video. I took a video of the obstetrician calling Michael. And because we had had such a lovely relationship, he trolled Michael on the phone and was like, he was like, I'm just calling to you. And like, it's so funny. And he was like, Michael thought the obstetrician was joking when he was like, there's twins. And he was like, Michael goes, I will tell I will make you a teacher like me. will. He was like, you will. will tell everybody in Sydney that you are a terrible obstetrician. I will take all of your clients away from you and you will never, ever drive a nice car again. You will be a teacher like me. And he's like, Michael, I'm not joking. You're actually having twins. And he just couldn't believe it. Like, but he knew he also knew it was two girls. He had this weird gut feeling. Yeah. So And then obviously with like having conceived twins, the chances of having twins again is higher, right? So yeah, so once you have, yeah, yeah. No, I never, that was another question that everyone asks me is did I think that Lottie was twins? And no, I didn't. But I just had, I had this gut feeling that it was just an anomaly for me. Like it wasn't, because we didn't have any predisposing factors to why I. have conceived twins, like we didn't have a family history of it, we didn't advanced maternal aid, like there was nothing that kind of increased my chances other than from my research that I did when I had conceived them was breastfeeding increases your chances, which people think the opposite, right? Because people assume, well, everyone tells you that breastfeeding is a form of contraception. Wrong. Thank you for five kids under four and a half. was breastfeeding while pregnant with all of them. So no, very wrong. Actually, because it can alter like, because you're ovulating it irregular times potentially with breastfeeding, etc. One cycle you can not ovulate, but you still have a bleed the next cycle you can ovulate twice me. So we were trying to conceive when we conceived the twins and I was ovulating by tracking my cycle and I didn't ovulate the cycle before. And then the cycle I can see the twins I ovulated twice, of which I happy. I was doing my temperature tracking and I had two spikes. So weird. So apparently breastfeeding increases your chances of twins. So if you decide to go for number five and want the twins be prepared for number five and six, is what I said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. have loved to have twins. I mean I'm sure it's so hard. Was it so much harder the newborn stage? No? no, because like, genuinely, when we call Lottie Satan, it is accurate because she's been so hard and I would have the twins newborn stage any day over Lottie's like, I think we were really blessed with really straightforward twins. And we just got onto it early and I always would wake one up if one wake woke up to feed, I would always wake the other one. up and feed them just to try and keep them as aligned as possible. But yeah, like, I don't I look back on that time period fondly, like I don't feel like it's hard. Whereas I know a twin mum at the moment who is in my mother's group with Lottie, and she's going through the ringer. She's like, how did you even do this? And I'm like, I must have just had the easier option, like, like, as easy as it could be as such. Don't get me wrong, it's hard. Like I'm not taking away from that, but I think it was as easy as it could have been probably. Yeah, yeah, wild. So cool. that was amazing, Ruby. That was so cool to hear those stories. I just loved that. That was so great. Yes, thank you for having me. I feel like we know each other so much, even though we've never actually met in person. Hello? someone's at the door. Hello? That is such good timing. I literally just finished recording a podcast episode. hehe You're like, who is she talking to? So funny. I need to press stop recording. Stop.