Music and Football 1:1 with Eddie Lundon - China Crisis

A packed house, a surge at the barrier, a song that changes your life—Eddie Lundon has lived at the crossroads of all three. We sit down with the China Crisis cofounder to trace a life shaped by Liverpool’s terraces and a studio door that once swung open to reveal David Bowie. What starts with a crowded Kirby household—boys top‑and‑tailing, sisters spinning Motown—unfolds into a story about devotion, memory, and the art of carrying on.

he Liverpool Connection Podcast - Music and Football 1:1 dives deep into the minds of talented artists, musicians, DJs, and producers. Discover their unique stories, inspirations, and the creative processes behind their amazing work.

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Daz O'Connor, Nik O'Connor

Transcript

Welcome And Eddie’s Early Roots

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Liverpool Connection Podcast. I am Dazer, and this is my football and music 101 versus 1 or 1 on 1 episodes that I like to do where I bring on a musician to talk about Liverpool and talk about their musical journey. And uh I've got a great guest. I've been again, I always say this, but I really do mean it. I've been on and on to try and get this guest on for the longest time, probably the longest in my three-year stint as a podcast host. But yeah, I I as everyone knows, you know, I grew up in the 70s and 80s where music really was a massive part of my life, and um this man has been a part of my life as well. Um, growing up this same part of the country and listening to his music inspired me to you know branch out and listen to other people's music. But I am privileged and honoured to welcome Eddie London from China Crisis. So, Eddie, you know, welcome to the podcast. I know we've been chatting for the last 10 minutes, but officially, you uh you are on the Liverpool Connection podcast now.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Well, thank you for having me. I apologize that it took so long, and just a big hello to you and to all your listeners and viewers.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Well, let's delve right into it. Um I mean you're a you're a Kirby lad, aren't you? I am. I was born in Kirby, yeah. Phil Tomo, you know, comes in there. So take me back, you know, to your childhood. And was was your household uh, you know, was it half and half? Was it Liverpool, Everton? Was you were your parents like big footy supporters?

SPEAKER_02 1:54

It was no, it was it was an all-red household. Which which considering uh there was ten of us, it was a you know a big family. So there was four boys, four girls, you had mum and dad. When I was born, and I'm the youngest as well, uh out of you know, out of the eight kids, I'm the youngest. So when I was born, I was born in a place called South Dean in Kirby. And we only had a two-bedroom flat. So my mum and dad were in one room, and there was eight kids in the other. So that was a bit, you know, but I don't remember any of that, but that was obviously far too young, and then um they moved us out of that because we were such a big family, and they put us in a four-bedroom to house in Westfale, and that's where I I remained until probably early 20s, so started releasing records and everything at that at that point, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Did did you finally get to sleep on a bed?

SPEAKER_02 2:58

I never had my own bed until I was 16. So you you know you probably know how it was then growing up, but um but uh so my mum and dad had their room, there were four boys in the other room that was two bedroom there, and we were top and tail, and then there was three sisters in another bedroom, and then the oldest sister had this little box room, so we had it and never had no bedroom until I was 16.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yeah, and I'm I'm I'm I'm uh me dad used to work on the airport airport tarmac, so uh I basically grew up the first few years in a caravan. So I never I never did the bed either, you know. So I mean I can I I would like to say maybe I'm part Jeppo. I am I don't know, but yeah, I mean just just following me dad in a caravan, you know, and he just back on that. So yeah, you know, a bed.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Because it it is truly nuts now because um I mean obviously times are so different. Um I I do a little bit of I do like only one day a week because we're still touring so much and recording so much, but I do one day a week teaching at the Bournemouth Cartney School, you know, the Paul McCartney Institute in Liverpool. And if it if it tells like students or whatever, the circumstances of like you looking at them and doing so many in my lab, they truly believe that they're lying. You think that's like you know, Victorian days, or you know, you just can't get the heads around well right on it, you know. So most most of our kids they come from like uh there's two children in the family or the only child and very wealthy school like that, and um you just don't get the heads around it, you know, the way you involve it for many things.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yeah, I mean, you know, sleeping in your own beds now is you know, like everyone most people have a bed in there. I mean, but for you with with with all your siblings as well. So obviously, did you have you know Liverpool bed spread or was that non-existent as well?

SPEAKER_02 5:18

That was not we couldn't afford anything like that. I I did when when I eventually had children, I did get them bed spreads for them, you know, like all the things that we couldn't afford when we were kids are trying to get you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. I got them from the kids, you know exactly how it is. But it was great being brought up in a big family like that because uh well for one, the boys, you know, you've got the sporting side of it, you know, being brought up with a day club like Liverpool and that, and the girls and everything, a lot of the music comes from that side, like his sisters were avid, like you know, Motown, Steven Runs and Boeing and that kind of thing, and um you know, really just been listening to the top 40 charts, every shoes, any of that. So you kind of brought up with the best of both worlds, really. So I was kind of lucky to that extent.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

When when was your um first experience then with with with Liverpool? Because you know, obviously you're probably you know in the same boat, you know. I mean, it was my granddad that took me, you know, because he would save his money all the time, make sure that I go. But for you, especially in a household, you know, like that.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Do you know what it look it was written cheap in when we were kids, it was cheap to go to it wasn't expensive. And I used to go to the booze pen, you remember the blue's pen, which was attached to the cot. And uh and what you do then days, you you go and you you you pay into the booze pen, you climb out of the booze pen and climb into the cot. Uh and that's what all the kids used to do at the time. I don't know what I don't actually know what year the blue's pen got to modest. Um,

Growing Up Liverpool: Family, Kop, And Culture

SPEAKER_02 7:15

but I I must have started going round about I'd say nine or ten years of age, because we owned a brother. He would he would just go, he would go home and away to every single day. And in tits most of the new later games, you know, you just walked to the East, it's called the East Lancashire Road for the Sunday now. And that was like between here and Manchester, but basically the main road that would get you anywhere, you know, that would get you near it to motion motorways, or get you out to Yorkshire, or or Manchester way, and you just go and you ditch out. You didn't go home and wet, you know. And so it was kind of in that like uh started being with me. My neighbours as well were really good, you know, football fans. You were just a couple of doors away to come in. So I would go, we would we would go a lot of the time we'd go well together. Um but that was kind of later on in senior school and after I left school. And even to be honest, when I was first, you know, when the band was first starting that, I would I would go away right through to the 18s. I know they actually stopped going to weight matches after Hillsborough. That was that was when I started. So if I was if it wasn't touring, it wasn't in the studios working or whatever, I'd try to get through as many games as I could, you know. And I was at High School and I was at Hillsborough, and it was it was after them events, and I just basically I'm not going to no more away games anymore, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

So I mean that that's understandable, you know, those you know, 85, 89.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

85 and 89, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, very tough. Um that's when football just changed for me as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, it it was kind of strange for me because 85, we we were at the top of our career, you know, we in the charts all the time, black man very king and Catholic style, four to the imperfection which we did with the guys who were stealing down that was a massive amount of them. Uh and so after 85, it was it was a strange experience for me for Taza to be perfectly honest, because I was in the I was in the stadium, I was in the end where it all went off and everything, and I swear to God, I left that stadium, everyone back to the airport because I had to I had I remember I had the old whistle test TV show the next day, so I had to get back into London. So and I was totally unaware, totally oblivious that anyone had died or anything until I got to the airport and was watching it on the TV, oh my god, you know, and that's when that's when it dawned on me what the you know the enormity of what went on that day. It was it was quite incredible. Very the opposite of Hillsbare because I was in the standing and and could you know view all what was going on in the Lapons Ray area. So that was very, very different. You couldn't see all that's filling out onto the bridge. But it's kind of a strange experience when you're actually in the crowd and all that was happening, and you're unaware of it. You know, you you know there's pushing, you know, there's pushing, you know, there's whatever, but you're not unaware of the enormity of the tragedy that was that was unfolding around you. You know, it was bizarre.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Well, I mean, you know, be being back in a cop in the early 70s and 80s was the same thing. It absolutely was. When when we're getting close to you know the goal, everyone push.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

And do you remember they used to have used to have the push bars there in the bars?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah, yeah, you whenever you get there, you make sure you're nowhere near those. Like Michael would always, I mean, a lot of the times I'd be on his shoulders, but he would he would make sure and nowhere nowhere near that because it was a massive push. So yeah, I mean you know how how we all grow up and and we we love our team and stuff, but those those two dates, you know, years really made me just think of my family more. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like football was just put on the burner for a while. I I I think I I never spoke about it for years.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

I never I never spoke about what what happens or anything. I just uh supposedly just kept it all in there, you know, it's just that they when you were asked now, I just thought, yeah, I was there, you know. What can I say? I was at both of them.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Well, I mean, we're just well, I mean, we're told at a young age, aren't we? Like a lot of people from the Jersey side, like you know, be a man, even even when you be a man and don't don't cry, just uh you you don't you don't need to show any emotion exactly, and I think that's that's what happened with a a lot of people back then. They just kept it inside and it just ate at them. And you know, nowadays is a lot better. Like with the mental health, you know, you can go see therapists, you can you your mates, you can actually talk to your mates about what's going on in the arm around you, but back then it was very like hush hush.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

It was unmannedly like to put up arm around somewhere, you know. It

Terrace Life And The Boys’ Pen

SPEAKER_02 12:50

was just like you know, but uh I I I'm I'm thankful the world's uh growing up a little bit more now, you know, and you you're allowed to kind of let some of them emotions well, and uh disputed that you can tell too and all that kind of stuff going back to that time as well, it was also tough because I mean you we had an amazing Liverpool team in the 80s, got incredible and and again, you know, those two events really took the shine off off the team because you know well it says and if you if you remember if you remember after when it happened in '85 uh let me not only was was um it it would have to be a bit of banana from Europe, but we also imposed a self-ban on ourselves as well. Uh so it lasted for about 10 years or something like that. Um the team and everything it kind of just angles, you know, just because as you quite rightly say before that, like you know, it was it was unbeatable and unstoppable, you know, such a force Liverpool football team. And uh I think I think it I think it actually calmed the club, you know, going into that exile and coming out of Europe now for such a long period of time. You know, we we we we came back and we couldn't compete with our teams, you know, United to obviously took over us and started winning everything, you know. Well obviously uh it was you'd got the first division as well. It wasn't it wasn't the Premier League and all that. You didn't remember obviously well. We never even won the Premier League for 30 years, you know. We couldn't we couldn't even win it, you know. Everton won it before us. Black game won it before us, you know. We never got it until the pandemic and what happened, you know. So I mean, I think the team itself was was really hard through all that, and a lot of it, I think, stemmed from you know, they're going into exile out of Europe and everything, and we've just not been able to concert that's such a long way room.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Who who was one of your who was your poster poster uh footy player back then? Mine mine was Keegan for a year until I repped it back in Europe.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Keegan Keegan obviously great, but if you're talking about but beyond you there, you've got the classic, you've got the classic Shankly uh picture. And Shankly was was like one of my and we we talked was for Shanks, you know. That's it was just that that's how embedded it was in the phone. So Shankly was obviously a hero. Keegan amazing. I love the Keegan and Toss Reconnection, but I loved I loved other players as well. Before then, like you know, like Ryan Hall and obviously Stevie Ira and that. And then when Keegan went, I mean Zaganese was just unstoppable. He just became, you know, because I think I think like most people from Liverpool, uh when Keegan went to Hamburg, no one knew how he was going to be replaced. You know, how'd he replace Keegan? So no one expected this little Scotskin to come along, you know, and all of a sudden, bam, you know. So that was great, you know, that was that was incredible. Getting replacement for Kate uh for Keegan in some technician was just a still genius.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah, I bored my eyes out when Keegan left. I just just because you know, I mean, again, my my first match was when I was six, so I only uh I only got to witness Keegan for a year, but what I saw just blew my mind. Oh mental, yeah. He was he was just sconfold. Yeah, that's where that's where he started as well. So you know, and I couldn't see past Keegan.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

So obviously to be fair to you, I don't think many could. Yeah, I don't think no one no one's seeing a dad each movie, you know, that was like yeah, I don't think many people could. So that was that was the the beauty of it, in a way.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, and I think the great thing about our team is now, you know, we we've had so many players come and go, you know, amazing players, and we I don't even think twice anymore to go this next player that's coming in. Well, maybe Andy Carroll.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Oh yeah, yeah. He was doing well when he got him at the new cross and I think yeah, and you know, but yeah, I think that was that was probably one of the changes in the in in you know in Liverpool's uh you know and in their recruitment left side. But uh the same with strikers, strikers every instance, you know. If you're looking up, if you Robbie, Michael Owen, Johnny Holdage, Ian Paul Walsh,

Heysel And Hillsborough: Shock And Silence

SPEAKER_02 18:20

you know, uh little Spanish ladder to think of as far as you know the recruitment for the strikers. It's been second to none. Second to none, you know, we it's incredible that you know the the way we do that. I wish we had the same, you know, kind of vision for the defense sometimes, but uh we didn't we never seen him show us on scoring goals, you know. We never really have them. He was Frank, Frank Hollywood. Straight when he's best fan.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

That's that's the thing, you know. That like I said, like I don't second guess anymore, you know, when we bring players in, we we just always seem to bring in better. I mean, for for for Kenny for me, just just not only on on the pitch but off the pitch, what he's brought to Liverpool. Another great Scotsman. You know, absolutely he lives and breathes Liverpool, and um you know watching him on the pitch as well, com command, you know, everywhere on the pitch he was, and I I miss those days. I mean it it's great to see the teams of of you know like Rafa and Brendan brought and then obviously you know watching Jergen's teams. But there was something about those seventies and eighties teams for me. What can we say?

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, you know, in just the teams, uh absolute genes. I mean it's too much you say about the city as well. I think that I think that the players come to the club and he embraced the city. The city really embraces them back, you know, they really and this is a no you know Europe loves the city. Sam Alonso loves the city. You know, but the city that's some great players to be able to just you know so the problem must be too short to embrace him and and and the city starting embrace is gonna be yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

I just read a little thing, you know, Suso, who used to play for us. Well, more more so in like just squad player. You know, he when he first came, he was 16 when Rafa brought him and he stayed with with a family that had I think three sons as well. And he's just saying he stayed in touch with that family, he brought him over for Well and Sevilla beat Man United in the Europa League final was his present for them. But again, that connection is still there with so many ex-players. I I was just in Vancouver a couple of weeks ago with Mulby, Aldo, and Gillespie, and just listening to those three on stage, it took me back, you know, many, many years, and this I could not stop smiling. I mean, obviously, you know, their jobs these days are you know being booked as legends to tell these stories, but it never gets told, and it's always told in a different, like you know, a different way every single time. Because I've I've I've had Mulby and Gillespie on on the pod, and I've I've listened to a lot of their stories, so their stories on stage were a little bit different from what I heard on the pod, but yeah, it it still came to the same end result, which is to entertain and make people smile, and you know, yeah, and it and it gets many people that won't be able to get to Anfield, you know, they they get to see their heroes up close and personal, and it yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

I was just I was just gonna say um I think Anfield, I think Liverpool has a great relationship with the ex-players. You you you're all waiting with uh with Mark White and that and you know a certain two kids and playing for the clubs, but a lot of them ex-players do the hospitality and all that now, but they all you know work for Liverpool football club when they go into retirement and all that, and they're there, they're doing the hospitality, and so they're kind of looked after, uh even after the career, you know, kind of as as a player or whatever ends. There's a lot of them that a lot of them that are all doing, you know, working the hospitality meeting during things for the club. So it is a very I think it's a it is like a it's a family, isn't it? Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah, well, you hear that word so many times, family, that it is. Yeah you know, they look after their own, just like you know, all supporters look after each other as well, as much as possible. I want to get back to what I know I knew, you know, beating Barcer in the in the Champions League semi-final is probably everyone's you know best game for you, you know, growing up. What what was one of your highlights of as of many highlights of being a Liverpool sport?

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Obviously, God we've got a tough again. The 86 definitely cut final games, because we got the double that yeah. And I did I used to love Craig Johnson as well. I thought he was a he was he was a great player for Liverpool, we got him from Middlesbrough. And I thought he was a great player for Liverpool. So that that was that was a a you know what a spectacular game, obviously as well because it was emerging 12 years as well, you know, as well. You can rub it on a bit. But in all honesty, one of the greatest games I ever went to was uh was the Newcastle Liverpool game. I can't even remember what year, that was about 96 or something like that, 96-97 or something. The 4-3, um, and the square was playing for them. I think he scored that night. Uh and we had Robbie Fowler getting two and Stan Colymore getting two, and that and we beat them 4-3, but we were, I think we were 3-1 down at one point or something. I mean, I think we went into Belize in the beginning. Then we went down uh and came back and won a 4-3. That was like off the scales exciting. That was like one of the best games you could ever see. But you're quite right. I mean, people will turn around and say the Barcelona game, obviously, because being 3-0 down in the first leg and then coming back and winning it is just outrageous. And also, obviously, the cup final as well, you know, the European Cup final. I think most people have probably walked out when they were 3-0 down there before Gerard and Shabby, and you know, so and who got it? Was it Smith's about the one, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, so so you know there's there's I think there's just a catalogue of great games that you can go through, isn't it? And and all of them like such special memories. I mean, they just named three different things there. We named the league, the FA Cup final, the Champions League final. Some great games, some great games. Did you go to Istanbul? I didn't, as I said to you before, after well, I tell you like Kim, my partner, she's believe it or not, she's a Chelsea fan, funny enough. I and I'll tell me about it, and I have to live with her. But the only I as a sense after Hillsborough, I never went to any any away games ever again. And the only one I went to was Istanbul, but not the Champions League final. It was a couple of years back. It was the you know, the Super Cup thing where Liverpool were playing Chelsea in this like Super Cup game. Um I went to that, and that was the first away game that I've been to since Phil's break. Didn't didn't did it help you at all like being yeah, it did, it didn't aware say because I just I just remember just staring around, looking at everyone, you know, and all the excitement and all that again. And it it it it was a good feeling, you know, to be there. And obviously grounds are much safer. I was never I was never scared of any safety or anything like that. I just didn't want to think, I just didn't want to bring up all the bad memories and all that. And we made we never just went for the game, we made like a little mini break and holiday out of it. So there was other things to do, and that was just like the action on the case. But I'll tell you what, as well, this year I did go to the game, me and Kim again went to see Andalex in Belgium and that and Union, you know, Union and who were playing Liverpool in the UFA thing. We seen them at uh Analex

Exile From Europe And The Club’s Reset

SPEAKER_02 27:40

down in things. So we went to that one as well. But that's it again because we were just over there on a break and that and we decided to go and watch a football game, uh as you do.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yeah, uh yeah. I mean, on holiday, you know, like when when your parents used to take us to Spain a lot, Switzerland, Belgium, we'd always find you know a local team just to go watch, you know. But I mean, you know, back back to like away days are some of the best days of my life, just because you know, you're traveling with your mates, and it's so different here because in America, I mean, you know, with the American football, it's it's such a massive country. You know, you're not really traveling with your mates because you know you're taking different planes or a greyhound to get to you know from say bless to New York, so you don't get the the the you know the passion.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

It's not like a road movie, it's not like and that's half the fun, isn't it, as well? Yeah, it was when you go with your mates to away games and that it was it was like a little road movie, you know, going to York. You could be do the size of the world, we're all going to we're all going to you know, all this button, we're all going. But I used to love that as well. I used to love going to a lot of the way games, and especially in the FA Cup, some of the smaller tools, you go to York or something like that. It was great fun. It was great. I used to go I used to go to Villa Park a lot for some reason. I don't know why. I always ended up in Villa Park for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

But I mean, you know, back then it it was it was a different time though, because you know, coming off the trains, you were met by you know the the opposing fans uh automatically and and on the way back as well, you know. It was a different time, but like hearing some of the stories, like you know, my granddad went to Rome in 77, and uh just some of the stories that came out of his mouth were like you know, me me me nan would put her hands over my ears and be like, Don't be telling, don't be telling him that. And you know, you just hear I didn't go to Istanbul either, but you get you know, my some of my mates went, told me, you know, it was a check, and then I had some mates that went to key Kiev as well, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

My son obviously I'd go to Liverpool and every game, and he he you know, he got in his. I always had two season tickets because he could get them back in them days, and then what I started doing is we've got two boys, so I'd alternate each week with them. You know, what one you'll go to that game and you go to the next game and alternate, and obviously uh they grew up, you know, I had Liverpool fans, Dallas they're always 20s now, and he was in Kiev, he was in he was in Istanbul, you know, he he he would go anywhere to see them, you know, no matter where it is in the world or whatever. Um which is great because it reminds me of when you know when we were younger, um obviously there was that big you know period of of isolation where we couldn't go anywhere because uh because the ban and the self-imposed ban and everything. So Europe was completely ruled out and everything, and the game has changed. And I suppose in many ways you kind of I think I went through a bit like what you were saying before, actually, does it uh I think I fell out of love with it a little bit after that. And and not not with my club, just with the whole thing, the football, I think. Um I went through a bit, you know, uh obviously where what it's happened, um I never ever gave it in tickets or anything like that. I I never fell out of love that bad. It's hard to make the marriage worth, you know, the in your club. And it is, you know, through you know, yeah. I'm just thankful I think we I didn't give up.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yeah, because you know this for cuts. Well, it's just like you say, it's it's a marriage of you know, love and hate at times. Yeah, yeah, you you just can't get rid of her, you know. Yeah, it's always in your life, you know. I've

Heroes Then And Now: From Keegan To Kenny

SPEAKER_01 32:10

had good times, I've had bad times in Liverpool, but you know, I'd never never divorce her. Yeah, exactly. No chance. Well, I want to get into your your your musical side now. Um so again, we're going way back. So you started China crisis in is it 79-80?

SPEAKER_02 32:33

People say 79, it wasn't really 79, it was the first record was actually from 1981. So we we basically started round out in 1980. Um and 81-82 is the first single we used a song called African Right. Um funny enough, a small uh local independent label called Inerit for Records, which was based out of Kirby. And on that label, in Editful Records, it had ourselves, it had Warkeith, it had Dead or Alive, and it had a people called uh the Cimaterial or the Yachts before we became the Cemeterial, and then eventually became the Christians or whatever. So it was a little neat little label, it was very cool, it was distributed by Rough Trades Records, who um responsible for loads of all that distribution, you know, from everything from all the point records to Elvis Costello to stiff records, you know, they were the major distributors with rough trades. We had one single with them, African White, and then um the likes of John Peel, Jan Slong, Peter Powell, Kid Jensen, all these, you know, cool Radio One presenters at the time. He took on African White and started playing it. It was so unusual at the time, it was so different from what people were doing, and singing about apartheid and all that kind of thing, you know, way back then when but Manzella was still in jail, you know. So it it was it was it it went through the roof, uh, and then Virginia records come in and scientists. Uh so and as they say, the rest is history, really, you know, we it it went from stealth from self and then from then.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Well, I mean, you've been in in the business now 40 plus years, which is amazing. You know, you're still going. Who who were some of your musical influences back back then?

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Back then. Well, I mean, the whole reason why I got into music in the first place was because of David Bowie. You know, growing up with David Bowie was just he he I was a huge fan of Bowie. Uh and remember me and Gary, my partner in charge. I said we hit to London to see him on the Earl's court in the 70s, you know, and we were just fascinated by him. Uh, but then the early 80s came along, and funny enough, it didn't like the football. I used to make a couple of Manchester groups early on, like a big called magazine. You know, they were a great band, uh, certain ratio, very kind of indie, indie kind of bands. Um and then I absolutely adored the Talking Heads and that, you know, what the Talking Heads were doing. I thought they were just incredible. And I loved them from '77, from the first album, '77, and more songs about buildings of foods. But when when when they got to Bay and Light, that was it for me. It really piqued it. I just thought they were, you know, possibly the best fans on the planet. But there was loads of good stuff, you know. We we were very lucky in the early days after we did, I think, the second album, uh, working with Fire and Steel. We toured with the police, uh, we did a lot of tours with Simple Minds. Uh we we we toured with Bonnie, you know, so working with your hero was incredible. And when I was growing up in school and all that, even before that, before you know becoming a professional or whatever, I used to love the likes of like Stevie Town and they were like one of my favourite bands. Um and getting to work with Stevie Towns doing a couple of albums was just insane. It was great. So we've been very lucky throughout our career early. We've got to work with some great people and some people that like totally, totally inspired us when we were younger as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yeah, I mean, uh he probably is on a lot of people's lips. Same with me, I never got to see him. I w I wish I did, but I mean, must have been surreal. I mean, to to you know, be on the bill with him. To play the boy.

unknown 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Oh god, it was it it's even it's even weirder than that because how this all came about was maybe doing I think it was our fourth album, it was then called What Price Paradise. And we were recording it with Langer and Winstanley, they were the producers. And Langler and Winstanley were responsible for all of Madness's hits, Elvis Costello, Robert White, and then Robert Wyatt, you know, shipbuilders and Texas Midnight Runners come on early and all that kind of thing. But they also did the absolute beginners for Bowie and produced that. So we were in the studio recording our album, and who turns up at the studio, David Bowie, you know, and sat in on the session with us and listened, you know, listened to the album, but we were just recording. And Tim Rarns said it, he loved it. And Tim Allen said, Do you want to come on tour with us then? And we we were we went, yeah, thinking, oh, people just say that, and you're never gonna hear nothing again, you're never gonna hear nothing again. And true to his words, a few months later when the album came out and Bowie announced his tour, we got the call. Well, you come in there or not, so yeah, we are, so it was incredible, you know. So that was lovely. What a great man, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah, I've just you hear so many stories, like all good stories about Bowie just being just down to earth, you know. Oh, incredible. Not not the unreachable rock star as you know, today's rock star seemed to be uh untouchable. Back then it was a bit more, you know, down down to earth, but yeah, I mean, I I couldn't imagine like words wouldn't come out of my mouth if you stood in front of me.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Yeah, or else I'll tell you the funny story there, but I don't know whether it's funny enough for your podcast. I'm allowed to say it on your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Hey, it's it's your story, so if you want to tell it, tell it. I'll t I'll tell you a funny, a funny body story.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Uh the day he came to the studio uh to see us, right? My brother worked for us, he was one of the road teams for China Currents. And in the hallway in the studio, he had a pool table when you play pool when you were recording or do whatever. So Dave Bowie walked into the room with his girlfriend then, later become his wife, Iman. Right? And my brother was like a huge, huge boy fan. So he's bending over, just about to take this shot, right? And he looks up and then he double does a double take and goes, Jesus Christ. And then he turns around and goes, Close.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

I actually thought you were gonna say you hit him with the snooker ball.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

No, no. And then my brother turns around and go, Tatum, does your bird does your birds want to drink? And what you just say also, I don't know what to spec. It's very funny, but uh great great taste. Great taste.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, again, being in the business for 40 plus years, you know, obviously

Legends, Community, And The Club As Family

SPEAKER_01 40:30

music has has changed, like you like money-wise, you know, touring is your your bread and butter. So you've been doing it for so so long. How does that affect like your mental health? You know, because you I I I listened to a really good podcast, Justin Hawkins from the darkness. He has a brilliant podcast, and he was just talking about you know the drugs and alcohol, how you know it took a hold of him, and you know, for him to get on stage, he needed to take drugs and alcohol. Um and and for you, I mean, obviously, you know, different different story, different times. But I mean, you know, getting getting up, doing your gig, getting on that coach, you know, hotel or sleeping on the bus, and then another gig, how how does that affect you?

SPEAKER_02 41:28

You know what, we we handle it quite well. I mean, um I'd be a liar to say that you don't you you know you you don't get stressed sometimes, fam, and you want to be home and all that. It it I think it takes a certain breeds of people, actually, because the amount of we're fortunate. Okay, China Casses is me and Gary, and then all the other band members and everything, they're usually session players and all that. Me and Gary were the with the songwriters, we're the ones that you got signed to the label. No one else was signed. Basically, Gary and Eddie at China Kansas, um, and then everyone else is kind of employed that with session musicians. Now, the amount you have no idea the amount of musicians that we've gone through in in that time period because people they couldn't they could barely do one to all, you know. Um that's the weird thing about music is that you can be as talented as whatever, you know, but you need all them other ingredients, you need you know, you it's not just about the talent, it's about having the commitment, it's about having um the resilience, you know, and just basically, you know, I don't want to sound too far, but but you know, sometimes it takes a lot of backbone, you know, when you have way across the states for three months or something like that, and people just want to get on and they don't want to, you know, so it it's not for everyone. Fortunately, we were kind of weird because we never started off as a touring band. We started off as a songwriting to you all. You know, it wasn't really until we got to our second album that we started touring, but we had to put a band together. It was actually the record company said to us, Don't you think you should get a band together? Because you've got hits in Germany and Spain, you know, all over all over the world. And he's never going play, you can't you don't promote them, you don't do anything. And that's because we were songwriting duo. So it was then we suggested to us, so we got the band together. Uh we we went on tour with simple minds, and then we ended up touring with simple minds a lot, going all over the world with them. Ended up with the same management company as them. And then I think we just uh and our kids didn't know when we first started. We stood there on stage like like statues, you know, and was like, you know, basically in fear, like a rabbit in the headlights, didn't know what to do, just playing the songs and getting off as quick as you could. But obviously, the more you do it and the more experienced you get it, you know, over time. It's just like a confidence thing, you know. I think we really, really enjoy it now. We we love to I love going to different cities, I love going to places all over the world. I adore that and seeing new things and absorbing the culture of the places and you know, the people that are there, and the foods that are there, and the different audiences that are there. So I love all that, and I and I find that like a really important part of what we do. So we enjoy it so much.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Well, I think you know, you you get to meet so many new people, but you get to see the same old people as well. You know, you make friends in every city, as they say.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

But I'll tell you what though, this you know, when it does become like the treadmill and all that, fortunately now at our stage, when we're getting secure cities, if we're going to Vancouver or we're going to New York, fortunately now we're we're in a position where we can go, okay, we want a couple of days off there before we do the next gig and see it. But I kid you not, I've been to like New York about five times before I'd seen anything. Literally, we used to get off the bus, go on the gig, finish the gig, back on the bus, and you're out of there. And you know, you ever been to New York? I haven't seen anything, but I've been you know, now we spend a lot of time in these places or and make sure that we do because we can kind of dictate our own time to everything out. But back in the day, you you couldn't do that. You you you you weren't allowed to. You know, you were onto your you were on the bus and off to your next your next city.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yeah, well, that's the thing, you know, with these younger bands now, you know, you you get in the camper van or whatever you do, you get to the gig when it's dark, and you get back in when it's dark, and off to the next city. So you you you know, you you have the the ability now to enjoy, you know, like I know you're in Austin not too long ago, and I'm so uh the gig, but I know you're playing San Antonio in December,

Matches That Live Forever: 4–3 And Miracles

SPEAKER_01 46:30

so I'm gonna try and come to that gig. It's during the week, so that's a school night for me for for the kiddos, but uh I'm gonna try and come come up, come down for that. Where's Austin? Where's San Antonio? It's down or up. Texas is so damn big, it takes like 10 hours. Yeah, it's insane. But uh, you know, I mean it it's it's great that you know you still put out music, you still bring people joy, and that that's gotta make you so happy, you know. I I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

You know, I we've been doing since we were kids, I wouldn't, you know, it's it's it's it's what we it's just what we do, it's what we do, you know. So I I enjoy I enjoy having time off on places now, and you know, like what you said earlier on about younger bands and young, you know, I I wouldn't say like super successful bands, but I'd say, you know, younger ones working the way up the ladder and all that. It must be so difficult for them, you know, as you said, to get out get off the bus when it's dark, back on the top. It's just a treadmill, you know. And I and I wouldn't like it onto them situations, I'd take too that. Um so we try, we try, you know, the tools might take a little bit longer now because we're like a bit of time off wherever we go. But hello, that's the way it is.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Well, um, I mean, like I I was refreshed actually this week. I don't I don't know if if you've checked the UK albums. There's one lad who I've watched his career progress in the last like three or four years. His name's Ren. And he's a little Welsh lad. Well, I mean, I think he's about 30 now. Uh he's just got the the new UK number one. Um he's done it all independently, and I love that it's all been social media in the album charts, yeah. He he beat out Rick Astley, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Let me tell let me tell you the weird story, right? Okay, this is in the last month, this is only two weeks ago. Licensed for our first album of Virgin Records that was out 40 years ago, and he put the album outlets about a month ago, and he sent us the clip. We were number 10 in the UK charts two weeks ago, we album outlets 40 years ago. How mental is that? You know, and buying the charts.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, that I mean it it's just it just fills me with joy though, because you know, the the music industry is so cutthroat, you know. Yeah, you hear about a lot of bands, they they they get this deal and they're pretty much ripped off, you know. Oh god, yeah. I mean one cents while the record company gets you know well, I mean, it is the music industry how it really works, is they they give you like a it's not a blank check, but they're gives it to advanced check, an advanced, and then you have to make your own promotion, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Yeah, well, it it works different ways, okay. So one the times are different now, so not many actual physical copies are sold these days, a lot of it's done on streaming, but back in our day, how it worked, is you you know you'd have to sell hundreds of thousands of records, you know, just to get into the charts and that. So how it worked, but you'd sound a deal with like Virgin, for instance, right? And they give you so much money. Hypothetically, they give you a hundred thousand pounds to go away to record the album, right? But when you sound a deal, you sound it it's it's like 85, 15. You only get 15, and that company gets 85%. So say an album's £10, right? They get £8.50 clear profit. And for your £1.50, you don't get that until you pay back the hundred thousand pounds that you borrowed off them to be courted, and all the promotion, and the video, and the sleeves, and the manufacturing, and the tour sports, and the radio plug there, and the TV plug there, and the press. So you can see how it mounts off. So that's why Baron's never earned a penny off the actual albums because you'd have to sell a million albums to get your first £1.50.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Yeah, that's that's just mental. That's why I'm you know, you know, I think we all remember Prince putting slave on his face because he was sick and tired of Sony. Yeah, changed his name to Symbol. Yeah. You know, and and and you know, uh kudos to him for what he did. But yeah, you just see all these upcoming bands that are screwed over, you know, because that yeah, that first album.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

The only the only way that you that you made money in them days is through your um I still to this directly, is through your radio plays and that, you know, your publishing your PRS and all that kind of stuff. That's because every time the radio plays your song, you get so much money, and that's how you're making money. So you'd make money off your publishing, but you wouldn't actually make any money at all off your record sales.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Yeah, that's crazy, but it it's it's nice to hear, like, you know, because I'm a big vinyl person, but just because I I love the feel, the touch, the sound of vinyl. But it's the artwork that you know back in our day, we we'd spend hours and hours in the in a record shop just going through it, and you'd have to buy things just by the sleeve.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

That's a great scene.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Yeah, but just by the artwork, you know, you you were just drawn to it. And I mean, you get home, some of them would be like, Good god, what is this crap? But you know, the artwork was good, but you know, I'm I'm glad to see that the younger generation are starting to buy more vinyl now, which is really nice.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Rather

Returning To Away Days And Healing

SPEAKER_02 53:00

than you know what you said before about uh you money to be made in tour and that. I mean, all last album models in the neighborhoods. We it's the only album where we've just finished another one literally this week that we'll be gone out soon. But it's the only actual album that we actually own. The record labels own all the stuff that we've done. So we can manufacture that album, the last one that we did ourselves, and we wouldn't we refuse to sign it to record label because from what you know to what to get 15% or 20% off them. Don't you think so? I'm too old for that. So what we did is kept it ourselves, manufactured it ourselves, sell them at the shows ourselves, and you're making money from your records that you never ever made when you're when you were with them any two record labels, you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

It's insane. You know, not somebody in a in a high-rise office building, you know. Yeah, yeah. Getting another Lamborghini for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Yeah, but we did that version. They used to collect Aston Martin TV TV nines or whatever, TV fives or something.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Or you're you're still on a bicycle.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

Yeah, well, I'm getting the bus down there in the team and rain.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Well, we before we wrap this up, I I always like to ask um my musical guest, your like ultimate festival headliners, alive or or dead, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And it can conclude you. Well, I'm saying, like, if if you know your Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Alive or Dead, like you know, I've had some musical guests go, Oh, well, I'd play on a Friday night, you know, just a headline Friday, and then I'll have like Bob Dylan on a Sun Saturday, Bob Marley on a Sunday. So, what would your three three nights be?

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Well obviously Bowie's going on. Do you know you've mentioned a couple of I'll just say that the best people I've ever seen, and Bowie being one of them, Prince being another incredible performer. Uh really enjoyed seeing him. Um do you know we told it with Santana in America? Yeah. That was weird. That was weird. Well, okay, so Friday night would be okay. Just turn up, just turn off to the festival from Friday second. Imagine the big Stevie Down.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Love Steely Down stuff.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

I don't know that too. I love I I I love I still love a lot of music and a lot of new music, but um, yeah, I'd say that'd be my perfect weekend headliners.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

Well, you've got I'm surprised you didn't say talking heads.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

Oh, yeah, the talking heads will be there. I'd have to be for talking heads.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Well, maybe we'll put another stage on for you and we'll put talking heads, but well, me and Kim did funny enough.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Just this year in January, we went over to New York and seen the David Byrne Utopia thing. You know, he's he's got this, he's doing it's like uh I think he's on for about a year, you know, in like uh on Broadway, one of them theaters, just doing all the David Byrne stuff, a lot of talking heads stuff on that. So we went over and seen that. So I have seen David Byrne this year, but uh I've never seen the Tolkienette as uh as a uh as a unit that that'll be that'll be a blessing, that'd be brilliant.