#8 Of Stories, Systems, and "Imelda, Who Was Small" with Thea Snow

Stories are powerful levers for change and building shared understanding, but where do they fit within the context of systems work? But also, what is Thea Snow, Regional Director at the Centre for Public Impact's favourite story?

If those are the questions at the front of your mind today then you've come to the right place! In this episode, Tenille and Matt chat with Thea about her work and learning about the power of stories and storytelling. Listen for an insightful and thought provoking discussion that leaves you with a task - reflect on what your favourite story is, why, and share the answer with others. 

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Transcript

Tenille: Hi Matt, welcome back. How are you going after your Christmas break?

Matt Healey: I would say it was more break, no, more Christmas than break. Yeah, that's probably the way I'll phrase it. But it was good. It was nice to have some, some time off. How about yours?

Tenille: Yeah, I got my Christmas break was extremely busy. There was no break. We moved houses but we're all settled in now. So looking forward to a new year in a new part of the world.

Matt Healey: Oh, that's very, very exciting. We won't spend too long on pleasantries because I am super, super excited with who we're speaking to today. She is, and I will not get into her introduction. She can do that for herself. Thea Snow, the Regional Director for the Center for Public Impact. Welcome Thea.

Thea: Thanks for having me. It's great to be part of the conversation.

Matt Healey: So, I know we've we've touched on this a little bit there, but we're obviously. Doing this podcast largely to I don't wanna say spread the word, but to maybe provide the opportunity to create a bit of space for people to learn about systems, systems thinking, systems change, all of that sort of stuff. Before we get into that though maybe just a bit about you and your background. I mean regional director center for public impact. What is that? What does that involve? Do you wanna maybe give us not quite a full life story, but maybe the, the truncated version.

Thea: Truncated version, sure. I can definitely do that. So I started my career as a lawyer and thought I wanted to be a human rights lawyer. And spent a couple of years working in that space, and then pretty quickly worked out that there are real limitations to being a lawyer, in that you have to apply the law, and that can feel very unjust and very constrained.

Thea: So I ended up moving into government because I felt that that was the way that was the place that I could actually influence policy and influence the laws as they were being developed. And I worked in government for about 10 years in the Victorian government and then towards the end of that time started to feel quite frustrated at some of the limitations that I saw in government.

Thea: And I was really focusing on At that point in time, the thing that was frustrating me, the thing that I sort of had words to describe was like how how poorly government collaborates with other people, other actors, you know, like social, social innovators and people who sort of working to do the same things that government wants to do, like improve our education system or improve our health system.

Thea: Or I was in social policy, so they were my focus areas. And they were really. Brilliant people doing that from all different parts of the system and government often doesn't look up and out and sort of engage with those people. So I left government and thought I need to study and think and like take time out to sort of explore some of these questions in a bit more depth.

Thea: And so we moved to London as a family. And I've got three kids and spent an amazing few years over in London. And it was really there that I met CPI and a whole sort of tribe of people who were thinking really deeply about what is the role of government in our society and how do we start challenging what government has been and imagining what government could be.

Thea: and how to sort of support that shift. So that's what led me when I came back to Australia to sort of initiate a conversation with CPI to say, I don't see anyone doing this work over here. Would you be open to me? Giving it a go. And so I was very lucky that Adrian Brown, the executive director said, yep, give it a go.

Thea: And that was

Matt Healey: second.

Thea: about five years ago just under five years ago. And here I am still today.

Matt Healey: Well, look, you said you'd give a truncated version. I'm sure there was a lot more that went into it than just give it a go and five years passes. But what, what kind of things does CPI then? Like what's I don't want to say what's a day in the life of, but what are the sort of things that you're doing like, or what was sort of the things that CPI is doing in the regional context then?

Matt Healey: Okay. Hello.

Thea: that's by design. And The, the, the sort of the, the focal point, if you like, of the reimagining is based on the idea that the world and most of the challenges that government grapples with are complex challenges, which require a mindset of humility of learning of experimentation and of, you know, sharing power with people who, who understand how challenges express themselves in their contexts and what solutions look like in their contexts.

Thea: And that's, that's how you take a complexity informed approach. What government tends to do is to treat a lot of challenges as though they're complicated. So as though they're linear, as though they're, you know, if you do. then Y will happen. And that's what we're trying to disrupt through our work. This idea that you can sort of analyze a whole lot of data, come up with a neat implementation plan, implement the plan and solve a problem.

Thea: And so we do sort of four things. We describe our work in four ways. We do learning journeys. So that's where, for example, a team in government might want to learn about systems thinking. And we can sort of design like a master class or a, you know, a sort of a bespoke program to learn about that kind of thing.

Thea: Kind of topic and we've done learning journeys on, on systems thinking on system stewardship. So what does it mean to lead as a steward of the system? And that's more sort of like classroom style learning, if you like, although all of the work that we do is based in the idea that people learn best you.

Thea: when they engage with the material. So it's very experiential and creative and, and an involved way of learning. We do learning partnerships and that's where people in government are, teams in government are grappling with something that they want to change. So it may be that they're observing a cultural, a cultural challenge within a department or within a leadership team.

Thea: And we walk alongside that team for a period of 12 to 18 months. For example, to sort of almost like as a coach and mentor and a provocateur to sort of introduce new frameworks, new ways of thinking about the challenges that they're identifying and new ways of work, you know, a sort of a cadence of, of learning and reflection that allows them to continuously improve and adapt.

Thea: Because we know that when governments are delivering, teams in governments are delivering a That's what takes precedence over learning and reflection and improvement. And so the learning partnership creates like an accountability mechanism for them to, to do that. And then the, the third and fourth thing I'll just move through really quickly.

Thea: We do research and that's really where we get to do work that's at the edge of like what's acceptable to explore, right? So like we've done work on the role of imagination in government. We've done work on story to the role of storytelling in government. And that's where we really like to push the edges of, of thinking and discourse, I guess.

Thea: And then the fourth thing that we do is community convening. So we host a community of practice and we, we host free events and conversations. And that really emerged from us hearing and identifying that there's a real appetite for it, like, particularly public servants are like desperate for spaces to have conversations about ideas and theories and frameworks and, and, you know, there isn't a lot of time and space for that in their day to day work.

Thea: And so it's about creating like, I guess, creative and open environments for people to explore interesting and provocative new ideas. So we do that as well.

, .

Tenille: Thea, thank you so much for giving us that overview. You, mentioned that essentially you sort of do work that's on the edge of, you know, maybe what's acceptable. And, and one of those things that you touched on was storytelling and prior to. This interview, Matt and I have read some of your reports and we were really fascinated by the storytelling for change reports that you have out there and it also linked in with what we'd heard from Dominic has around using stories and their stories, sorry, and the power of stories.

Tenille: So I guess we'd like to delve. into that a bit more. And we just thought maybe a good way we could kick it off is do you have a favorite story that you've heard in your work that you'd like to share with us or a powerful one?

Thea: Yeah, it's interesting because I mentioned to you that Matt sent through some questions last week and I just did a quick skim of them because I like this to feel more conversational. But I did read that question, but how I read it was not stories at work. How I read it was like, what are some stories that have been influential in your life?

Thea: So I'm going to go with that and then I'll come back to the at work piece. Because it was really interesting because what popped into my head. Was childhood stories and I kept, like, trying to push them aside and think, no, think of better stories, but It was, it was the childhood stories that really stuck with me.

Thea: The books that my parents read me and which I've read my children as well. And there's this beautiful book that sort of was the one that was most prominent in my mind. And it's called Imelda, who was small and it's about a little girl who's like the size of a doll and her parents sort of really upset for her and she's really upset because she doesn't want to be a doll size.

Thea: She wants to be the size of a girl her age. So she goes to a doctor and he tells her to eat long foods. You know, he says if you eat spaghetti and you, you've got to avoid short foods like porridge and donuts. And so she does that for like a week. And she goes back to the doctor and of course she hasn't grown at all.

Thea: And she's crying in the park afterwards and she sits down with her mum and they're crying Old woman sits down next to them and says why are you crying? And she says, because I'm so small. And the old woman says, can I ask you a question? Do you sleep in a shoe box? And she says, yes, I do. And the old woman says, try sleeping in a bed and see what happens.

Thea: And so her mum buys her a big bed, her parents buy her a big bed, and she moves into a big bed and she grows. And what I love about that story is that when I read it as a kid, I read it in a particular way, which was just this like fantastical story about this crazy doctor and there were beautiful pictures in the book and, you know, I absorbed it, absorbed it at one level.

Thea: And then I remember rereading it to my kids and thinking, this is a beautiful metaphor. Which I completely didn't pick up on as a kid, but the idea that when you allow people to grow, they grow. When you put them into places, spaces and places that are spacious and, and which sort of stretch them, then, then, then you give them the opportunity to grow.

Thea: Whereas when you contain them and sort of protect them that people actually don't grow. And so what I love about that book is I just love that book. And also the way that you read it at different levels and in different ways depending what age you are. And maybe I read it in 20 years again and I take something different from it again because of the stage of life that I'm at.

Thea: So, that's one of the wonderful things about a story that it can be read in different ways by different people and can sort of touch you and connect to you in, in, in ways that are important at that moment in your life.

Tenille: Yeah, that's right. And I really like how you highlighted the unique perspective depending on where you are and what age you are in life. I'd love to, hear from you again when you read it again in 20 years and see what you've got to say.

Matt Healey: Neil. Do you what's your favorite story? 

Tenille: , my favorite story is the rainbow fish story and I think that's what it's called, but you, you would remember the book with the rainbow fish that's got all the sparkly. 

Matt Healey: It's like a bluey, like bluey kind of cover. Yeah. I think I remember.

Tenille: The cut through metaphor there is that the rainbow fish has beautiful scales and is all shiny and all of the rainbow fish's friends come and ask for a scale.

Tenille: And at the end of the book, the rainbow fish is black and white and has no more beautiful scales because it's given them all away to the other fish.

Thea: That's like another book that I love called The Giving Tree. Did either of you ever read that?

Tenille: No,

Thea: that,

Thea: , it's just beautiful. It's the same thing, like there's this tree and a boy and they're best friends and the tree just keeps giving and giving to the boy until the, and you sort of follow the boy through his life.

Thea: And he ends up really old, and the tree's just a stump. And the tree says, I've got nothing to give you. And the boy who, they keep calling him the boy, but he looks, you know, 90 years old, says, I don't need anything, just a stump to sit on. And it's just, oh, I've got goosebumps even talking about it. It's just beautiful.

Thea: Heh heh heh.

Matt Healey: Yeah, that's a hard one. I think I actually was thinking about it in terms of, I knew I was going to get asked this. So that's why I asked to Neil first. So I'd give myself more time. I think, I think my, my favorite story, probably if I think about when I was younger, I couldn't actually tell you for certain what it was, but I don't think it would have been what I'm going to say.

Matt Healey: So that maybe goes back to what you were saying about like life stages and, and. Things like that, but I maybe it's because I'm getting more reflective as I age, but I'm quite taken with some of the ideas behind like the Winnie the Pooh stories, in particular, like that idea of I mean, it's not necessarily the moral of the story because there's many layers to like the original Winnie the Pooh stories, but I think that idea of like aging, but remaining connected to To where you came from and then like some of the the more like imaginative elements behind that.

Matt Healey: Like I grew up on a farm and so some of the ideas of, you know, Christopher Robin having these adventures with Winnie the Pooh and all of the the creatures that live in the hundred acre wood. And I just think about like my own childhood growing up in the country and like there weren't many other humans around like on our farm day to day. so yeah, I guess for me it's like, It's very multifaceted and I've done that thing where I don't give a direct answer. So I'm going to say just Winnie the Pooh in general. That's my answer at the moment. 

Tenille: I'll accept it.

Thea: And then you also asked me about a story at work. And, and I think that it's not, it's not really a story as such, but I, I was sort of revisiting this this blog that I wrote recently cause I was, I wanted to read something. I wanted to read something about the sort of the ideas that I remembered having written about.

Thea: And it was, It was a partnership. It was actually the partnership on storytelling, funnily enough. I just realized that. And we did this sort of, you know, we worked together for a year to produce the storytelling report with Dusseldorf Forum and Hands Up Mali. And we were really pleased with the report and we got great feedback on the report.

Thea: But actually what we realized in the learning and reflection session because at the end of all of our projects, we always come back with our partners and reflect on this we create at the beginning of a project like a charter, a team charter, what does success look like, what does it feel like and what do we want to avoid and we sort of check in on that.

Thea: across the life of the partnership, and then at the end, do a bit of a reflection session. And what came out really clearly was the fact that the most, the biggest success from that partnership wasn't actually the report, but was the relationships that we'd connected, the relationships that we'd built with each other and the ways of working that we'd fostered.

Thea: And they felt really unique and really generative and really sort of, I guess acted as such strong foundations upon which everything else proceeded. And so it was this really important moment where we realized that. You know, it's often the invisible things like the time that you invest in relationships, the time you invest in building trust that has no tangible output that actually creates the conditions for great work to happen.

Thea: And that's something that was a real sort of Lesson, and I guess a story that we that we keep telling each other as a team to remember that no matter what we're working on, investing in that invisible sort of stuff is really important.

Tenille: That was that was really nice to hear and I really liked your closing sentence there around investing in the invisible stuff. That's such a great takeaway.

Matt Healey: I'm starting to think about now is even in our own practice within say my team, like we often do talk about say past experiences with projects and those sorts of things. , I'm wondering in terms of say systems based work, for instance, and even this idea of like, what is a. A story, like whether it's a work story or personal stories, something like that, like what, what are the traits or characteristics of something that would you constitute as a story? Like what makes it a story versus a not advice, but you know, what, what makes something a story versus not a story? If we're then talking about some of this, this sort of conversational stuff, like, are we just sitting here telling stories or is there something that makes a story different?

Thea: Yeah, it's a really good question. So, you know, a lot of our work What we were focused on defining, if you like, was the difference between stories and qualitative research rather than sort of like stories and advice or stories and anecdotes. And where we landed was on the idea that the difference between qualitative data and stories rests in where power sits.

Thea: So, in the context of qualitative data, researchers still shape the questions and decide how those questions will be asked and how they'll be analysed and how they'll be interpreted and how they'll be shared back. But in the context of storytelling, the shift is where power rests. So it's the story holder who decides which stories to tell and how to tell them.

Thea: And that the story holder owns the interpretation of their stories and observations. So, an example of of a story as opposed to qualitative data is, you know, a qualitative researcher might go into a community but, you know, and may even sort of meet people on their own terms, but will like, will construct the shape of the, the interaction, the dialogue.

Thea: Whereas you could imagine a situation where a researcher who's interested in stories would just like sit around a campfire. And listen to what people are saying on their terms, in their ways, and then there has to be this sort of, there's a really great methodology that is, I've just forgotten the woman's name, it'll come back to me, participatory narrative inquiry, and the idea that you're really involving the story holders in not just the sort of but also the interpretation of the story.

Thea: So that was something that came out really strongly, but also I should say one of the ideas that came out. So we've done two story, two, two reports on storytelling. The first was called listening. The first was called, sorry, insights from the field. And we focused on speaking to lots of people. in communities who are sort of leading place based community led change with a view to sort of really changing systems.

Thea: And in that piece of work, we heard from people that stories can take all sorts of different forms. So when we talk about stories, we tend to think about spoken word or written word. But people also said stories can be art, story, you know, we, From a First Nations perspective, like song and dance, and you can really tell stories in different ways.

Thea: And so the idea that a story can be an experience, a story can be a recipe book, a story can be a series of dioramas that are sort of on display as you move into a, into a place or a community came across really strongly in, in that first report that was called insights from the field. And then in our second report, which focused on listening, like, it's all well and good for communities to craft and tell great stories.

Thea: But what if there's not an audience of policy makers and funders and and others to, to receive those stories and, and, and use them well. That was really where that issue of, Quant versus qual versus stories came up because we heard that there is definitely within government and philanthropy to some degree, but probably to a lesser degree, a bias towards quantitative data, seeing that as being more objective, more rigorous a more sort of accurate way of sort of determining the truth of a thing whereas stories were seen as being emotional, subjective and, you know, and sort of therefore less reliable.

Thea: Yeah.

Matt Healey: then do you feel, I'm kind of putting you on the spot here a little bit, but like you mentioned the delineation between sort of power in the context of Qualitative research versus storytelling. Now I'm wondering to what extent can a story, like you mentioned the different forms that a story can take, but also obviously there's different, don't want to say like informational inputs into a story, but you know, a story could very easily be using quantitatively based information as a part of its narrative.

Matt Healey: So to what extent do you feel people actually only Not only interpret stories as qualitative, but maybe a limited in their understanding of what a story is because they're saying, Oh, a story is, I mean, you mentioned this before, like the idea of anecdotes like an anecdote is also kind of seen as less than a lesser than form of evidence.

Matt Healey: Because if it's anecdotal, it's not. It's not as reliable as other forms of data. Even like we've had that experience. Haven't we, Tennille, where someone will say like, oh, that's, that's anecdotal. Like that's not as reliable. Once I bought qualitative data, that doesn't mean that it's not reliable. That's like, it's just the nature of the evidence. Yeah. So, I mean, do you have a thought on, guess that delineation, I mean, it's clearly a bias that people are bringing towards it, as you said, but yeah, I'm

Thea: So one of the, yeah, one of the most interesting insights for me personally that emerged from the, from the work and the interviews that we did was that, that there absolutely can be tension between the stories, if you like, that the quant data tells and the stories that the story tell, right? So, like, the, the takeaways from the, so, and there are examples, like one person, and this is actually not in the story report, this is a topic I've been fascinated in for years, the sort of, the quant call debate.

Thea: And someone who I studied with while I was in London actually was, was also really interested in this topic and he told me about a situation where they were reviewing a a, a, a sort of a justice program, like a program that was trying to keep Indigenous people out of jail in, in terms of recidivism, right?

Thea: So, so people who had been in jail and it was a program intervention to avoid recidivism. And this friend of mine was, was Indigenous himself and was involved in the evaluation of the program. And the quant data was saying that the program wasn't working, but the stories that people were telling was like, this has changed my life.

Thea: And this is why it's been such a significant program for me. And what came out in the research that we did more recently was that that tension is the gold. That's actually exactly what you want. And that is why you should use different sources of data, because that's like, A moment where you should say, that's really interesting.

Thea: We've got to rip that open and delve more into it. Whereas what we tend to do is say. Well, those two things are in tension. One must be true. One must be false. Probably the stories are false because they're less reliable and subjective. And so let's trust the quant. And I'm being crude and I'm simplifying there, but that's the sort of the pattern of thought.

Thea: And actually the greatest insight, as I said, that emerged from me from the listening to understand report was that tension and that conflict is not to be resolved. It's to be explored and more deeply interrogated and understood. And it may be that you have to. You can never reconcile it, that both things are true.

Thea: And so, you know, the question is, what do you do with the fact that, that, that the data is showing you different sides of the same experience?

Matt Healey: And I think that's sorry to know. I know you're about to say something, but if I don't say this, I'm going to forget it immediately. Like the, the idea that both things being true, I think that principle that you've just lived to that, like, that's a perfect attitude that people who are. people that are listening to this grappling with complex issues or systems and those sorts of things like the experiential complexity that can exist within a broader system means that you will have plenty of instances where, you know, you will have people whose experience is completely opposite to what all of the data suggests and it's like, yes, and that is true. Like the data suggests that, you know, all of these bad things are happening. Yes, they are, but also they're not. And that can be the case for the certain contexts as well. But I really love that point on like, you know, it's the confounding situations are actually the ones to be relished and explored deeper.

Thea: Exactly,

Matt Healey: that. As opposed to sort of question for their validity, it's like, well, actually, that is quite interesting,

Thea: exactly. Sorry,

Matt Healey: of knowing what data is and different knowledge systems and all of those sorts of things as well,,

Thea: what this friend of mine, , who I met in London was doing in his, , thesis was, , taking a data set, which was, , an ABS data set about, , Indigenous disadvantage and interrogating the framing of that data set because there are assumptions built into the data.

Thea: For example, that overcrowding is an indicator of poverty. Now, that, that. That is often true, but it's also like, from a cultural perspective that is sometimes an active choice, that people feel safer, that people feel, feel more held, that that's their preference to live in houses with lots of, lots of family members and uncles and aunts and, you know, and so what we're doing is we apply a Western lens.

Thea: To a particular data set, we gather the data and we analyze it through that western lens. And what my friend did was he took that data set and sort of challenged some of the lenses and using exactly the same data, like exactly the same data, came up with quite a different interpretation about what that data was saying, the story that that data was telling based on an Indigenous cultural lens.

Thea: So I think the notion that That quant data is objective, that it's true, that it's unquestionable is something that we have to keep poking holes in because it's just, you know, the, the, the, there are values sets and, and, and worldviews that are shaping the questions that we ask, the way we interpret the data that mean that is just as subjective as the stories that people tell.

Tenille: Yeah, I was just reflecting from your story, Thea, about a project that we had worked on and it all was almost the flip side of what you were just describing where the quant data was telling us that everything was being delivered and being delivered really well. But the stories we were hearing was that. Change hasn't been felt yet at the community level and nothing had really changed for the people that this program was designed for, even though things were being delivered. And so presenting that data and telling the right story and getting the balance between, yes, you are delivering things, but the stories coming from community. I still the same and maybe it was just a case of reinforcing why the funding was in that area in the first place and why they needed to continue work. So, yeah, it's just really interesting to reflect on our work through this storytelling lens. , dear.

Matt Healey: , touching on the sort of evaluation end of things. what, what do you see is the role for, , stories or storytelling at, different stages of, , change efforts?

Thea: Mm,

Matt Healey: what, one thing that comes to mind is, and I do a lot of evaluations and those sorts of things.

Matt Healey: So it kind of makes sense when we think about, you know, you mentioned the qualitative side of things, whether it's data or other, other forms of information, like at the evaluation end, makes sense what, what people are trying to collect stories for demonstrations of change for. But when we were chatting to Dominique, she was talking about the use of like the potential, like stories of potential,

Thea: mm 

Matt Healey: and things like that.

Matt Healey: And so, I guess in, in your experience or from your perspective, how do you see storytelling playing a role at different stages? I don't want to say the phrase a program cycle, but you know, in that vein of, of thinking of, you know,

Thea: yeah.

Matt Healey: pre delivery preparation, delivery evaluation, like

Thea: Yeah, well, I,

Matt Healey: of storytelling in there?

Matt Healey: Hmm.

Thea: I guess I wonder if I can sort of like offer a slightly different framing, which is like, what is the role of story in, in, in supporting systems change? Because that's really what we've looked into. And so absolutely stories play a role in shining a light on the change that's happening because, because this, like, community led work.

Thea: It's slow and nonlinear and can be, it can, it can be about sort of shifts in hearts and minds. You know, it can be hard stuff to capture in quantitative metrics. I think that stories are a really effective way of shining a light on the change. That's evaluation. So that's what we've been talking about.

Thea: But stories are also, and we heard this really strongly, a lever for change in their own right. So by listening to and telling stories people can build empathy for each other. You know, for other sort of actors in the system who perhaps they haven't felt a connection with or never understood before.

Thea: And that can be a really powerful sort of lever for change. There was a lot that was spoken about as stories being a healing, a process of healing. So when people tell their stories and have their stories heard, it can actually be a really powerful way for people to heal from traumas or experiences that are keeping them stuck in particular cycles and patterns.

Thea: And having, being heard and having their stories heard and even just being able to articulate their stories can be a really powerful intervention in its own right. And then the other thing is the way that stories, you know, when you think about changing a system, part of what you need to change is mental models.

Thea: So the beliefs and the sort of the narratives about a community or about, you know, about a particular issue. So One of the things that we heard was like, you know, when, when you tell stories about, you talk about teenage pregnancy, for example, like even the choice of words, teenage pregnancy, there's like, that's a loaded term.

Thea: And again, you choose to show certain statistics about, about teenage pregnancy and that those statistics mean that you tell a different story. It means that there's shame associated with that and stigma. It's seen as a negative thing. And so. Young women who, women who fall into that category tell themselves that story.

Thea: I can't, I can't do this. I am a teenage, you know, a teenager who is pregnant and, and this is therefore my story. And actually what, you know, part of what narrative therapy does and, and I think good story work does is it, it, it interrogates those sort of those stories and starts to poke holes in them.

Thea: So you stop using the language of teen pregnancy and use the language of young mothers. Or something like that and that can completely transform how a young mother sees herself and what she believes is possible in her life. Because all of a sudden she breaks free of the story that says you're, you know, you, you, you're a teen, teen pregnancy.

Thea: That means you'll drop out of school. It means this and the other. I'm a young mother and, you know, and, and, and I'm going to, I'm going to sort of chart my own path and my own story, craft my own story. So I think that the idea that. Stories can change systems. The stories that we tell and the way that those stories contribute to the larger narrative and sort of mental models encouraging people or giving people the opportunity to tell different stories can be an incredibly powerful lever for, for shifting those mental models that, that, that hold a system in, in, in place.

Matt Healey: I mean, one thing that I love that I love that you said it because it also triggered a new thought bubble for me is the idea of like the shift for an individual. And I guess going back to what you're saying about like the framing of language, like I often think about what a systems change actually is or what it can look like.

Matt Healey: And oftentimes I feel like people talk about systems change as though it can only ever be really big, you know, these

Thea: Mm.

Matt Healey: Big things that are kind of, we all talk about wanting to do it, but it's very amorphous, very hard to sort of pin down. But what you were alluding to there about like the young mother who, you know, decided, no, I'm not another teen pregnancy that falls into a certain categorization set of categorizations, but actually I'm going to, you know, think of myself like this, or, you know, I'm viewed like this and chart a different path from what is presupposed, like that is actually a change, but for an individual's own. and how they relate to the things around them. Which I think is maybe something for people to always remember too, because I think a challenge that can come up for those that do the work sometimes is, you know, I'm trying to work on this one particular thing in this one area and yet the systems are also big and complex and you know, how are we ever going to change anything? And actually you can change things for people at very localized levels and the changes that are systemic don't have to always only be ones that are, you know, the really big ones that. When I say big ones, I guess at very big scales, but they

Thea: Yeah,

Matt Healey: changes for individuals that can be very long lasting and very profound as well.

Thea: absolutely. And I think that, you know changing a system has to start somewhere and it often, you know, it often, I mean, it often starts with individuals and Danella Meadows, who's, you know, one of the sort of, you know, Seminal systems thinker talks about how you change a paradigm and she says you, you, you point out anomalies in the current system and you speak with conviction about what a new possible looks like.

Thea: And you find people who can become part of the movement, you know, and you don't waste time with reactionaries. She says you focus on the people who, who. Find your your new vision, if you like compelling. And then the way I sort of see it is you build a critical mass and the alternative position, which is the status, you know, which has been the status quo becomes untenable.

Thea: And so, you know, a single person can't transform a whole community on their own. But you know, if you even think about The shifts that we've had in language as a society, like even in my lifetime, the way that you were allowed to say certain things. Which you're just not allowed to say anymore. And even you know, like I reacted recently, it was really interesting.

Thea: Someone said disabled people. Which I found, like, I had a sort of a physical reaction to that. Because I think for me, like, saying people with a disability, which is how I have now been taught to sort of. Describe it for the last, you know, couple of decades feels so much more, um, empowering, right?

Thea: Because it's not that someone is disabled. It's that they have a disability. They also have a whole lot of other things. Now, as it turns out, apparently that's quite a controversial topic area. And there are people who argue that, you know, that the language of disabled is more effective. But that's just one example of the way that.

Thea: I think that the shift in language and a shift in, in the terms that we choose to use can actually flow onto the stories that we tell the narrative, you know, and the more global narrative. So I think that starting at the level of like, yeah, the individual as a system, as you said, Matt, can work its way up the chain.

Matt Healey: I mean, are there, like, we've kind of talked about, I guess, a lot of the positives and those sorts of things, but like, what are the risks with some of this then? I mean, you talked before about the concepts of power, and I think that's, you know, I can almost foreshadow some very big risks around, like you mentioned that, you know, the holder of the story and those sorts of things.

Matt Healey: But I mean, just from your own either experience or observations, what do you What do you see as some of the risks around the use of or even the processes for holding conversations and gathering stories and those sorts of things. I mean, again, riff off the question, however you like,

Thea: Yeah.

Matt Healey: Yeah, like what's your, what's your take on that sort of thing.

Matt Healey: Yeah.

Thea: Bad Story. And that's what he spoke to a lot about. In our conversation, and he said, bad stories are driven by ego and you know, like, and self interest.

Thea: And he has a whole sort of thesis about good story, bad, what a good story is and what a bad story is. There's also stories can absolutely. be used for to manipulate, to to deceive. So, you know, someone gave an example of I don't want to get political, but like certain sort of the way that certain events are told by politicians.

Thea: So I won't give a particular example, but I'm all sure we can all think of, think of examples in our own mind. And, you know. An event can have different stories wrap around it and the stories that politicians choose to, to tell can completely sway the public into interpreting what was something that was, you know, something benign as being sinister or whatever it might be.

Thea: So I think absolutely stories can be used. With bad intent and stories can be used to manipulate. And I think we're seeing a lot of that a lot of that happening at the moment. Like it's, I'm listening to it's, it's excruciating, but everyone should listen to it. The Joe Rogan podcast with Mark Zuckerberg, like it's excruciating because they talk about martial arts for about 40 minutes and it's just like painful.

Thea: But you know, the way that Joe Rogan sort of says, like, literally says to Mark Zuckerberg, they're talking about a knee reconstructions that they've had to have after their martial arts. I mean, it's absurd. But Joe Rogan says to Mark Zuckerberg, you know, did you take peptides and to, to support your healing?

Thea: And Mark Zuckerberg says, no. And Joe Rogan says, why not? And Zuckerberg says, Oh, cause I just sort of, I just sort of did what the doctor told me to do. Joe Rogan says, Oh, don't do that. And then proceeds to tell a story. about why you shouldn't follow your doctor's advice, right? That is where anecdote becomes dangerous.

Thea: When it's like an experience, and that's something else that we talk about a lot in the report as well, the danger of a single story. So it's the collective impact of telling and listening and pattern spotting across a sort of a collection of stories that's really important because to over rely on a single story can really lead you down.

Thea: You know, it can be a bum's deal, let's put it that way.

Tenille: Well, I'm just conscious of your time with us today, Thea, and I just thought if you have any advice that you'd like to leave the listeners with around how they might be able to integrate stories into their systems practice.

Thea: Yeah. So I think something that I've observed is that people are sort of like, almost like frightened of, not frightened of stories, but they're like, I don't know how to tell stories. I need to, like, learn how to tell stories. I don't know how to use stories in my work, like, I need to get a narrative specialist, or like, I need to get story training.

Thea: And I guess my advice would be, like, we all know how to tell stories. You know Yuval Harari talks about like the thing that distinguishes humans from other species is our storytelling capability from such a young age, we listen to stories, we tell stories, it's like, it's part of what it means to be human.

Thea: So I think it's important to remember there is this. a slight zeitgeist and like veneration of stories and storytelling at the moment. And it's almost like that, that makes people feel disempowered to use it in their work. But what I would say is like you know, stories are tools and and powerful ways to do all sorts of things, as we've been talking about.

Thea: They're powerful tools to use in evaluation. They're powerful tools to use in teams. Like what are the stories that you tell about your work in your team? How does that liberate you? How does it hold you stuck and how might you start experimenting with telling different stories? So I guess my my advice would be, you know, we are storytelling creatures and just feeling the confidence to lean into that and to use it in different ways and see what happens.

Tenille: Yeah, well, I feel like I've underestimated the power of storytelling for too long until this episode, and I'm keen, Matt, to talk about or a bit of a, a team discussion about how we can integrate it more moving forward, especially in our systems work, but also evaluation. And we've had so many great lessons from Thea today.

Matt Healey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I just wanted to check. You mentioned before the was a participatory narrative inquiry. Is that the Cynthia Kurtz?

Thea: Cynthia Kurtz, exactly. Yep.

Matt Healey: my rapid searching in the

Thea: Well done.

Matt Healey: Found it out. There we go. Just for anyone listening. He wants to check up on that. 

Matt Healey: So it's Neil. That was pretty amazing. What do you think?

Tenille: That was incredible. Actually, I feel like I hear all the time from clients. I want to tell a story with the data or I want the evaluation to tell a story at the end, but most of the time we're not actually speaking to community or speaking to those people that are supposed to be benefiting from the program.

Tenille: And it's hard to create a full story and actually. Tell, you know, the, the holistic view of what's happening. And I think they are just reinforced that you can't really capture everything unless you go out and you get those stories because from her really great example about the, the project in the UK, the stories might tell you something completely different to the quantitative data.

Matt Healey: I, I think there's some really great advice in there from her around, where your, you know, your stories and your, your quant data or whatever else, like where things don't neatly triangulate or converge to a single point of, you know, almost truth. That it's not something to sort of shy away from. It's actually something to double down on and explore further. And, you know, question like, is this actually something where two things that are, you know, not in alignment are both true or there's something else at play as well? So I think, yeah, some really, really great stuff there. I think it's going to be an episode that probably gets a second listen, for sure. So I think maybe just the thing I would finish off putting to our listeners before we wrap up what's your favorite story? You heard from Thea, you heard from Tennille, you heard from myself. There's some questions in there actually around our own assumptions or our own views of the world and the stories that matter to us. You know, thinking and taking a moment and thinking to yourself, like what story resonates the most with me at the moment and where I'm at in my life and, and, and why and maybe even sharing that with your team or, or people that you work with and having a bit of a conversation about it. It's maybe a, I won't call it a challenge, but maybe a bit of a task for, for the next week or so. Everyone for, for listening and yeah, we'll, we'll see you next time. Thanks, Neil.

Tenille: Thanks, Matt.