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What does it take to change systems — not just tweak them? In this powerful episode, Angie Tangaere and Penny Hagen from the Auckland Co-Design Lab share what it means to lead transformative, indigenous-led systems change rooted in place, relationships, and real-world learning. From rethinking how government works with communities, to why personal healing matters in policy reform, this is a conversation that blends the deeply practical with the radically human. If you care about equity, complexity, or creating meaningful change that lasts — this one’s for you. 

If you're interested in learning more, here's some links to references made in the episode:

• The Auckland Co-Design Lab (https://www.aucklandco-lab.nz) and The Southern Initiative (https://www.tsi.nz/)
• Human Learning Systems (https://www.humanlearning.systems/)
• Healing Systems for Change (https://ssir.org/articles/entry/healing-trauma-systems)

Throughout the episode you may hear references to terms or parts of Aotearoa New Zealand's history and culture. You're welcome to use the below links to learn a bit more about these to help you get the most out of the episode.

• Hear some terms that you're not familiar with? Start here: 
  https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/maori-language-week/100-maori-words
• Te Tiriti o Waitangi (The Treaty of Waitangi) is a foundational document for Aotearoa New Zealand (https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-brief)

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In today's episode, Matt and Tenille talk with Jacinta Perry from Thriving Queensland Kids Partnership (TQKP) about what it means to view partnerships as systems, focusing on child-centered frameworks for systemic change. Jacinta explains the role of TQKP as a systems intermediary, aimed at creating conditions for kids to thrive in Queensland by connecting stakeholders from various sectors. She delves into the organisation's initiatives, including the Country Collaborative and Thriving Kids in Disasters, emphasising the significance of relationships and partnerships. Jacinta shares some of her insights on how systems thinking applies in her work, the role of ecological system-based metaphors, and the importance of going slowly with haste.

Below are some links to things discussed in the episode:

• Thriving Kids in Disasters Action and Investment Plan
• Thriving Kids in Disasters Report
• TQKP Draft Phase 3 Strategy
• Country Collaborative Social Network Analysis Webinar
• Human Learning Systems

For more about us and what we do check out our LinkedIn page.

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We've hit the 10-episode mark! To celebrate, we're unpacking food systems with the help of Dheepa Jeyapalan, Food Systems Lead Convenor at Regen Melbourne.

In this episode of The Systems Sandbox, Dheepa shares her journey from studying dietetics through to working with mothers and babies in the UK to her current role at Regen Melbourne. Dheepa, Tenille, and Matt delve into the complexities of what it's like to work in food systems, and some of the nuances that come with making progress from the current state of things to an optimistic future. The conversation covers the professional side - but also the role that personal connections to food can play in navigating complexity. 

This episode has something for everyone - and even some recipe ideas for baked fish!

Links and resources:

• Dheepa's Substack 'Cornucopia' - read and signup for regular reading on food systems
• The Regen Melbourne website and the City Portrait
• Kate Raworth's TedTalk on Doughnut Economics
• An article on the Three Horizons Framework hosted on The Systems Thinker website

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In this episode Matt chats with Dr James Nobles from Leeds Beckett University about his journey into and use of systems thinking methodologies. They cover the ways in which we can and should think about the deeper layers to target, and where to start. 

Spanning the use of techniques in design, delivery, and implementation this is a conversation that will be of value to everyone who grapples with complex problems. This includes deeper dives into the Action Scales Model and Ripple Effects Mapping - it promises to be a load of fun!

Resources mentioned or discussed in the episode:

• The Systems Thinker website
• Complex Systems Frameworks Collection hosted by Simon Fraser University
• Link to James' paper on the Action Scales Model
• Also, links to papers on Ripple Effects Mapping and some learning on implementation of a systems approach in Glouchestershire

For more about us and what we do check out our LinkedIn page.

Have some feedback, or a question you want us to answer? You can send us a text by following this link.

Stories are powerful levers for change and building shared understanding, but where do they fit within the context of systems work? But also, what is Thea Snow, Regional Director at the Centre for Public Impact's favourite story?

If those are the questions at the front of your mind today then you've come to the right place! In this episode, Tenille and Matt chat with Thea about her work and learning about the power of stories and storytelling. Listen for an insightful and thought provoking discussion that leaves you with a task - reflect on what your favourite story is, why, and share the answer with others. 

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It's a new year - time for a new episode! We've put together this shorter bonus episode to ease you into the new year. In this episode, Matt delves into the role of questions - specifically 'powerful questions' and their ability to create a space for different types of conversations.

Matt talks about three types of powerful question:

• Diagnostic
• Reframing
• Generative

Hear Matt describe these applied to the hypothetical area of Meadowview and its food system. Whether you're a seasoned Sandbox enthusiast or just curious, this episode invites you to consider whether you're asking the right questions to invite the right conversations.

Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and leave a review! Your feedback helps us bring you more amazing content. 

For more about us and what we do check out our LinkedIn page.

Have some feedback, or a question you want us to answer? You can send us a text by following this link.

In this follow-up to Episode #5 on diagnosing complexity, Matt and Tenille get tangible with a conversation on ways to think and approach systems mapping. The big focus is on two foundational ways to frame a system:

• through the actors that are involved or interacting
• through the determinants (barriers or enablers) to a topic area or point of focus

They unpack some of the tricks and tips - including second layer questions, boundary setting, and lateral thinking - as well as the role and importance of different perspectives being involved.

For more about us and what we do check out our LinkedIn page.

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In this episode of The Systems Sandbox, Matt chats with author, educator, policy advisor and regenerative thinker Dominique Hes about her take on systems thinking. She offers insights into the importance of adaptability, the importance of designing with communities and place, and why she sees herself as mycelium in the forest. 

Matt and Tenille then tackle a crucial question in the systems space - what are we seeing if we frame a problem as 'complex'? Shifting away from surface level analogies, they break down four things to look for to know if something is complex with the issue of vaping used as an example.

This thought provoking episode has something for everyone!

You can pick up a copy of Dominique's new book on the history and place of Newport Lakes in local bookstores in Yarraville and Williamstown, or online: https://www.amazon.com.au/STORIES-NEWPORT-LAKES-Creating-regeneration/dp/064670494X

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In this episode, Tenille speaks with Ruby Marshall, the Live 5210 coordinator at the University of British Columbia. Ruby shares her journey in health promotion, from her roots in Australia to her current role in Canada, where she collaborates with communities to promote healthy habits in children. They explore concepts essential to systems thinking, like leverage points and feedback loops, and Ruby offers insights into the challenges of cross-sector collaboration in health promotion. She discusses the 5210 initiative, which encourages children to enjoy 5 servings of fruits and veggies, limit recreational screen time to 2 hours, get 1 hour of physical activity, and avoid sugary drinks. Ruby explains how mental models and community champions play a crucial role in sustaining long-term change in complex health systems. Matt wraps up with a discussion on mental models, emphasizing the importance of making assumptions explicit in systems change work; and ideas on how to do so.

Learn more about Live5210 from their website: https://live5210.ca/pages/home.

For more about us and what we do check out our LinkedIn page.

Have some feedback, or a question you want us to answer? You can send us a text by following this link.

We continue the theme of systems journeys, with hosts Tenille and Matt sharing how they each came to learn about the ideas and practices of systems thinking from public health and environmental disciplines. This includes the determinants of health, ecological ways of thinking and resilience, but also handy tips to help anchor our thinking in systemic ways.

Then, Tenille spends some time explaining The Pig Model, a useful and no-tech approach to reflecting on stakeholder perspectives. It's a great tool for the toolkit, and usable by individuals or groups as an icebreaker or conversation starter.

This episode promises to enrich your understanding of how systems-based concepts are embedded in our daily lives, and provide some ideas for reframing conversations.

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Systems thinking is valuable as both process and product, but that is not the end of the story. These are both inputs into wider efforts and processes for change.

In this episode we chat to Jocelyn Bignold OAM and the CEO of McAuley Community Services for Women. Jocelyn has spent her career supporting women and children leaving family violence, experiencing homelessness and mental illness.

Jocelyn chats with Matt about her own systems journey, and how McAuley used systems thinking as part of their efforts to support women and children to be Safe at Home.You can learn more about McAuley and their work advocating and working towards Safe at Home on their website.

For more about us and what we do check out our LinkedIn page.

Have some feedback, or a question you want us to answer? You can send us a text by following this link.

The Systems Sandbox is a fortnightly series that unpacks the realities of applying systems thinking to complex contexts. First Person Consulting (FPC) have developed the Systems Sandbox as part of their capacity building work with the Victorian Health Promotion Foundation (VicHealth)'s Local Government Partnership.

Join hosts Matt Healey and Tenille Moselen in the first episode as they meet with Samantha Chapman and Jessica Brien - VicHealth's Leads for the Partnership - to learn about why VicHealth runs the Partnership, what it entails, and the role for systems thinking in addressing complex challenges.

For more about us and what we do check out our LinkedIn page.