Beyond the Headlines: Femicide, Patriarchy, and the Path to Healing

What are we missing when we call these tragedies “isolated incidents”?

In this powerful and necessary episode of Rethinking Freedom, Aya Fubara Eneli confronts the growing pattern of homicide-suicides involving women—particularly Black women—and places these tragedies within a broader global and systemic context.

From recent cases to the staggering reality that 51,000 women and girls were killed by intimate partners or family members in 2023, this episode challenges us to move beyond headlines and ask deeper questions about power, patriarchy, mental health, and accountability.

This is not just a conversation—it is a call to awareness, accountability, and transformation.

Featured Guests

Khalid B. Scott, LCSW
Khalid B. Scott is a licensed clinical social worker, substance use disorder specialist, and veteran with more than three decades of experience in mental health, trauma, and community healing. His work spans clinical practice, education, and leadership, grounded in trauma-informed care and a deep commitment to helping individuals and families heal.

Website: http://www.highachievers.net
Therapy Profile: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/khalid-b-scott-south-holland-il/466781
Social Media: https://linktr.ee/alphakbs1

Dr. KerryAnn Zamore Byrd
Dr. KerryAnn Zamore Byrd is a clinical professor and the Director of Baylor University’s Undergraduate Social Work Program. With over twenty years as a licensed clinical social worker, her work spans child protective services, court systems, psychiatric and police social work, and international communities. She is also an award-winning filmmaker and playwright.

Contact: 254-247-1262

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Well, good morning, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Rethinking Freedom. There is a story we tell ourselves when something unthinkable happens. We say this is rare, we say this is an isolated incident, we say this is just one person who snapped, but what if that's not true? What if what we're witnessing again and again is not randomness, but a pattern? Because in just the past few weeks, we have heard the names, some names. Vice Mayor Nancy McTyre, Dr. Serena Fairfax, Pastor Tommy McCullum, Ashley Robinson, Felicia Barnes, Devonta Curtis, Barbara Deere, just a few names. Different lives, different communities, different circumstances, but a hauntingly familiar outcome. Black women whose lives were cut short violently, often by someone they knew, actually, all of them by someone they knew, someone they trusted, someone who claimed to love them at some point. And if we're honest, we cannot call this coincidence. We have to call it what it is. A crisis, a pattern, a system, maybe. Because globally, in 2023 alone, more than 51,000 women and girls, for the statistics that we have, were killed by an intimate partner or a family member. That is a hundred and forty women every single day. One woman every 10 minutes. So during the course of this conversation, six women will lose their lives. Let's just pause. Preventable. You may have some other words. Preventable, which means these are not just tragedies, these are failures of systems, of culture, of accountability, of imagination. And here in the United States, a woman is killed by an intimate partner approximately every 11 hours. So we have to ask, what are we really looking at? Because this is not just violence. This is control, this is entitlement, this is deeply embedded belief reinforced over generations that a woman's life, her body, her autonomy can be possessed. And when that sense of possession is threatened, violence becomes the response. But this conversation should not begin and end with individual acts. It is part of a much larger ecosystem. An ecosystem where exploitation is normalized, where powerful men evade accountability, where missing girls, especially black and indigenous girls, are overlooked, where women are taught to endure, to accommodate, to fix, to survive, even when survival comes at the cost of their safety. So we must ask harder questions. What are we teaching our boys about manhood? What are we teaching our girls about love and worth? And what are we refusing to confront about power? And so today, this is not just about naming harm, it's about healing and it's about reclaiming humanity. I am your host, Aya Fubarinelli. And to help us navigate this conversation, I am joined by two extraordinary human beings, two extraordinary experts. Khalid B. Scott is a licensed clinical social worker, substance use disorder specialist, and a nationally respected voice in the fields of mental health trauma and community healing. And I saw a post he made on social media that made so much sense to me in a sea of noise. And I reached out to him. With more than three decades of experience, his career reflects a rare combination of clinical excellence, academic leadership, and deep, sustained service to individuals, families, and communities, navigating some of life's most difficult challenges. He currently serves with the Department of Veteran Affairs, working closely with veterans and their families, providing psychosocial therapy grounded in evidence-based practice, cultural humility, and trauma-informed care. His work is not simply about treatment, it's about restoration, about helping people rebuild a sense of identity, stability, and purpose after trauma. And I could go on, but we want to hear from him. But I do want to say that he's also a veteran, having served nearly a decade in the United States Army and in the Illinois Army National Guard. And with us also is Dr. Carrianne Zamora Byrd, who is a clinical professor and director of Baylor University's undergraduate social work program, with over 20 years of experience across child welfare, across child welfare courts, psychiatric care, and global communities, using both clinical practice and storytelling to illuminate pathways to healing. Together, they will help us move beyond the headlines and into understanding because there were and still are ways of being, particularly within African-centered traditions where women were not treated as lesser, but honored. So, how did we get here? And more importantly, where do we go from here? Welcome, Khalid. Welcome, Carrie Ann.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yes, thank you so much. So let's start at the beginning. You know the information better than I do. Um how do we even begin to understand this these patterns? What do you've seen the headlines? How are you what are you hearing? Tell us. Tell tell us how we should even begin to think through the patterns that get us to this place. Because we know this is going to happen again, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Queens first, um, Dr. Burke.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Well, thank you so much, Dr. Scott. I know, you know, I I think every time this happens, we all take a collective pause and we say, oh, what could we have done? When when, you know, what were the signs? The reality is if one in three persons are domestic are victims of domestic violence, we see the signs all the time. We are just not attuned enough, right, to be able to help victims get out of it. I think our society still um we still have negative narratives towards um domestic violence victims coming forward. The most unfair question is still being asked. Why didn't she just leave, right? Or why didn't he just leave? That is the most unfair question. If it was that easy to come from domestic violence, we wouldn't have one in three persons as a victim of domestic violence. We see it now on the news because these are high-profile individuals. But what about the individuals who die on a daily basis who don't have access to resources where there isn't voice, there isn't representation, right? We can see it on a national scale because these are national figures that we're talking about. But the reality is this happens every day in our backyards. School teachers, pastors, attorneys, doctors, lawyers, teachers, our neighbor next door that mows our lawn and smiles and waves hello, right? Domestic violence has no socioeconomic bounds, it has no race or ethnic identity, it has no gender, right? It is power and control that one person exerts over the other. And we have to do a better message of preparing our girls and our boys how to have those intentional conversations and recognize what an unhealthy or what a toxic relationship looks like from the time they begin dating before they get into the marriage. So, what you started off with with your mentoring program, having those very intentional conversations, that's what we need to do. Those are some of the things that we need to do.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah, Queen, I'm so glad you went first because you laid out the foundation, right? And you gave a wonderful synopsis of the background, right? Which we all are aware of and all are um victims of and accusers of, right? The thinking of, well, why don't you, well, why don't you it's like when you watch the burning bad with Farah Fawcett, and you said, Well, Farah, it shouldn't have got to that point where you had to burn his body. Why didn't you leave before you had to light the matches? Right? Well, let's go back, that's halfway through the movie. She ran to her mother's house. Tina Turner tried to run to her mother's house, and her mom was like, Anime, he's a good man, you know what I'm saying? Make it work, anime. Good for you, you know. So, what happens is we get into this mindset, right? And we get stuck in the mindset, and we go into I wouldn't do it, it wouldn't happen to me. Yes, it would, with the right person at the right time, yeah, right? Because we've all play the fool for love. We all went on initial dates at Starbucks Coffee House, and we heard all the red flag language, and we was like, hmm, do I want to still be alone or do I want to try to fix her or fix him and let me help them through their wounds that that other person did to them because I'm better, right? And the person told you the last five relationships ended because we couldn't get alone and we were fighting, and police had to be called, and order of protections was put on. What did you think that meant? Right. But when we're trying to get our needs met, it goes out the window.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Well, I'm I'm glad you're saying that because I think it's important that we talk about the warning signs. Yes. What are some of these warning signs that perhaps we're overlooking or minimizing? And certainly the messages that we are getting, because the, you know, there are generational issues here. I know growing up, you know, and my my parents love me dearly, but I heard from my father, who's a very well-educated man, that you know, a woman is not complete if she's not married.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Absolutely are.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

You know, you can have all the degrees you want, but you what you're gonna be an old hag, lonely and miserable, a cat lady, you know, those kind of things. And so suck it up, right? Right. And I don't know what messages men are getting. We we we're gonna have that conversation, but what are some of the warning signs that are being overlooked or minimized?

SPEAKER_04 11:08

Yeah, that is such a layered question, Aya, because we talk about generational and trans or or in a transgenerational, and then we also talk about some cultural issues as well. And so I I would have to really um I'm going to dissect the question, right? And so when we talk about some of the messages, think about a little boy and a little girl playing on the playground. The little girl falls and she scrapes her knee. Everybody, mom, dad, runs to her aid. Oh my goodness, pick her up. Let me see your knee. Are you okay? It's gonna be fine. Little boy pushes her down on the playground, and we say that we say to little boy, oh, don't push her and come on, sweetie, it's gonna be okay. The same thing happens to a little boy on the playground. He falls and we say, Man up, you got it. It's okay, don't cry. Suck it up. A little girl pushes a little boy on the playground and he cries. What are you crying for? It's okay. She's just a little girl, she's not gonna hurt you. What happens when these two grow up and the little boy pushes the little girl, or the girl pushes the boy, and it's like in the back of his head, well, you know, I'm not supposed to be hit. She's just a girl, it doesn't hurt. That's when we talk about men themselves because men are also abused, right? We see that women report a lot, but our men are also abused. We teach, so so we talk about these are society things culturally, because I am West Ended, culturally, you grow up and there's certain things that you do. You get your education, you get married. That's what you're supposed to do, and a man is supposed to lead. We also have messages from the church, right? The church is a major proponent of you're supposed to submit, you're supposed to do these things. And so when you go and you get help, because this doesn't seem right, this doesn't look right, I feel like I'm being controlled, or I haven't really gotten hit, but the way he talks to me makes me uncomfortable, or the way he looks at me makes me feel a little fearful, or he doesn't hit me, but he breaks things, he hits the wall, right? That is all the beginning and the warning signs of domestic violence. And sometimes we have to go way back in the childhood and see, okay, what messages did they get growing up that this behavior was okay? And one of the things, I am a 14-year survivor of domestic violence. I am not ashamed of it because I didn't hit myself, right? But I can just be very, I can be very transparent and say that a lot of the messages that I got as an only child, I never saw domestic violence. I didn't know what it was when I got married. And so by the time I realized this is a toxic relationship that had become cyclical, right? I was already married with two children. My husband, we had careers. So we now had established careers. This is an educated black man. Do I want to destroy his career? What do I want to do? And I remember going to a pastor, and you know, the the first lady said to me, Well, we all have our crosses to bear. I remember he's an officer in the military. So I remember people saying, Do you really?

SPEAKER_02 14:04

And now you're going to be that black woman tearing down a black man. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

And so one of the things that we have to look at is some of the barriers is that when you are elevated to a certain point and you have built the facade, you now you have to unravel it. What does that look like? Right? But those warning signs, like I said before, it is culture, it is religion, it is the generation you were born in, it is the messages that you got growing up from your family. Um, it's also lack of resources. It is the verbal, it is the emotional, the psychological, before you even get the first it. It is all of those things are the warning signs. I'm gonna hand it over to my brother Khalid.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

All right. Um, the warning signs are so obvious, but they're so um hidden at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Because remember, perpetrators because you know, because I want a rough neck.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Right?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

We had a whole song about that, correct.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

And oh god, I lost almost a little of my dog.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I get it, we're getting into it, right? But the point I wanted to make is this is that um, oh god, I lost my train of thought. Um the point I wanted to make is this um that we all grew up watching Walt Disney movies, right? And in those Walt Disney movies, and they technicolor and their their wonderful stories of resiliency and save me because I am a victim. And you will save me because love will, you know, cure all, you know. But let's take a deep dive into the Disney movies, right? Walt Disney did not create a lot of those fairy tales, right? Did you all know that? He did not, he did not create Cinderella, Snow White, Pinocchio. They came from these two German brothers named the Grimm brothers. And with the Grimm stories, they were horror stories. But Walt Disney, who's from here from Chicago, what he did was because he was an adopted child, he wanted to believe in the uh mindset of happily ever after. Everything that's a horror story can end in a fairy tale. So what he did was he added beautiful color, a soundtrack, and a happy ending to these horror stories, where we all learned at the end of the um the um the the the the story, we ride off into the sunset. But he didn't talk about what happened the day after Cinderella got married, the day after Snow White got married, the day after um Pinocchio was adopted by the puppeteer master, right? And so what happens is, and we watch those children, watch these stories as children, right? So we had a belief system that love will conquer all, no matter what. So we were fed this early on and we believed it, correct? So now we grow up and we watch other tales, we watch good times as black folk, right? And what happens is family and the projects, you know, the dad dies, but mom and the children they still prevail. And then in 1984, September 20th, this wonderful magical show came on TV, ladies, that changed black folks' projectory trajectory on family life. Do you know what show that was?

SPEAKER_02 17:36

With Haki Cosby Show?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Absolutely. Handsome dad who was a doctor, beautiful mom who was a lawyer, five beautiful, precocious kids. And then what have we discovered over the last four years? The man who played Dr. Huxtable did what to women abuse them, and then mom Felicia Rashad has been married and divorced three times. These are characters that we fell in love with, but the real stories are not what they're not fairy tales at all. But we fed into the imagery right now, ladies. 45 couples I know over the past four years are divorcing or have divorced. So, and we're middle age. So what happens is that's called gray divorces. So what's happening is people are waking up saying, I'm not happy anymore. I don't want this, right? And then in the pandemic, look what that did to us that isolation, that coming together, being with each other, moon, moon down, sun up, all day, seven days a week. I was getting phone calls. Khalid, I don't like that, my husband. Khalid, I don't want to be with my wife no more. And I wanted to make money off of that. So I opened up a private practice that's been booming for all four years because I'm getting men and married couples coming in saying, I'm not happy. But thank God they're coming into therapy. It's the ones who are not coming to find, and we're getting these headline stories because I'm taking all that in that rage, all that anger, all that resentment. How dare you divorce me? I lost my job as the lieutenant governor. I'm an alcoholic now. I can't get a job. And now you're taking my Walt Disney movie away from me by divorcing me and separating me and my two kids. So now I'm gonna come to a house with a gun and I'm gonna take your life and take my life while our two kids are upstairs. And we're and we're seeing the aftermath now. Because the reality is there are two victims. No, there's four victims. This have different outcomes. You know what I'm saying? And so we have to address eclectic issues, not just the men, not just the women, because now their two kids, how do they grow up and what what are their relationships gonna look like after today?

SPEAKER_02 20:02

So let me let me ask you this what is it that boys and men are being taught, directly or indirectly, about masculinity that can manifest in control of violence? Because when we talk about the the pressures of life, women are experiencing it just as men are. So if you're going through a divorce, two people are going through that divorce. Yeah, so when we when we look at the fact that when we when we when we look at the figures for um murder suicides, 92% of murder suicides are men against women. Yes. Um, 70% of those men are white men, but my show, we I I I I like to focus on what's happening in the black community because there are many other shows that are focusing on other communities. So I center what's happening in the black community. But so for for black men, um what is what what are the messages that we are getting, that that they are getting that when those pressures hit, that the response is violent. And and as you think of your response and in um and coming to you also, um Dr. Zamara Bird, I'm reminded of um a conversation that um Nikki Giovanni had with um James Baldwin decades ago. I don't know if you either one of you have seen it. Yes, where they were having this conversation about, oh, you know, the pressures that black men face outside, and then the black man comes home, and and and she is saying, Hey, but when you come home, do I have to bear the brunt of whatever pressure that you have faced outside, as though I too have not dealt with things outside of these doors as well, the racism and all of these other issues. So, what are what what are men being taught, black men and boys being taught, directly or indirectly? Is manifesting in this control and violence that we're seeing, and we're certainly seeing it on social media with this manosphere and in these conversations that that seem to be prevalent in our community, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:14

So what men are taught is what you all have been teaching us.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Oh no, you didn't go there.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

It's what you taught us. You are the mothers of these boys, you are the lovers.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Wait a second, are you blaming us?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yes. And I'm not saying you did it on purpose because you've been taught, and you take you teach what you've been taught, right? So when I have mothers call me about their 17-year-old sons who are cursing them out, or my my friend calls me and tells me that her 28-year-old son, who got mad at her because she didn't pick him up from work, came home, grabbed a butcher knife, and went downstairs and slashed all four of her tires because he didn't pick her up. When I get down to the route and ask all these mothers about why they think their sons are acting this way, what comes up is Khalid, I did coddle him. I did coddle him. I tried to be mom and dad because dad wasn't involved. I wanted to be firm, but I wanted to be sweet and fair because I'm feminine. You know, I wanted my son to get both. You can't provide both from one person. It's supposed to be two people, but we don't have that. I didn't have it. My mother taught me to be a responsible, respectful person, but I needed the men in my village to teach me manhood, right? And when a mother is dominant over her son, the son resents alpha-based women. You remind me of that tough mom who couldn't be feminine around me, who felt like she had to be hard and strong, and that wasn't her role to be with me. That's why we love our grandmamas because grandmamas are who? They're sweet, they're sweet natured, right? And this is again, this is not to blame because circumstances make you have to do what you have to do. When I got divorced, I had to learn how to flat iron my daughter's hair. I had to learn to go to dress shops, I had to learn how to get the control top pantyholes. I didn't want to learn how to do that. I didn't want to have to go and get tampons, but I had to because I'm a single dad now. But what happens is there's still consequences and ramifications. So us men have been taught be tough, be an alpha male, go to work, don't be there for the kids because mom is gonna be there. I gotta work a double shift, so miss your son's football practice, miss your daughter's um dance recital. But daddy's at work, but mom is there, and then the kids grow up resenting who? Dad. Because dad, we didn't care about your wallet, we wanted your time with us. But men, and out of those 45 people I know, all almost literally all the men who are divorcing or have divorced before the ink dried on the divorce decree, they already in relationships with another woman. And they not only divorce their wives, they end up almost divorcing their children. Because men have this logic mind if I divorce you, I gotta leave you over there, I gotta start new. But what happens is the new girlfriend she inherits the toxicity and the dysfunction that the wife had to deal with. Why? Because the girlfriend on the side didn't let him go to therapy, didn't let him heal, didn't let him go to the detoxification, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Didn't didn't didn't let him or he didn't choose to Dr. Carrianne. You want to jump in here?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Yes, let me let me let me go. Let me stop because look what you just did, Aya. Look what you just did as a woman when a man is telling you about men. What did you just do unconsciously? What did I do? You dismissed it. You said go go go next, Dr. Um.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

No, no, no, no. I'm just I'm just trying to broaden the conversation here, not not go next at all.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

But if a somebody's watching the show and they're hearing me, a man talk about men, and you did what you just did, I know why you did it, but that's what it feels like to men when I'm telling you about what men are going through, women do this. Stop. Go. I don't want to hear that. Go to the next.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

So I think I think it's really great that you're pointing that out because I I believe it points to some of the preconceived notions and cultural issues, just in terms of the gender norms that you have even spoken to.

SPEAKER_05 27:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

The fact that who's supposed to be alpha and what our definitions of manhood versus womanhood are, what these gender roles are, and who's written them. So there's a certain there's there's certain there's a certain concept of patriarchy that is also undergirded within religion that I believe is poisoning our entire ecosystem, yeah, and creating issues for everyone. And so if a mother is firm, then a son automatically thinks, oh, okay, she's overbearing, therefore I should resent her. Oh, if a father is gentle, then he's too feminine. So, in if for so anyone listening who is saying, Oh, she dismissed him because I said, Let me hear also from Dr. Bird, that is their preconception and and uh a conditioning, as opposed to, oh, we have two experts here, and you were hearing a viewpoint, and let's also hear this other viewpoint. But it's also this language of the woman coddled the man, and the girlfriend did not allow the man to go get therapy, as opposed to him having some agency as to how he wants to show up in his own life and what choices he wants to make. You know, he gets a choice to say, I just got out of a relationship, I need to do some work before I get into another relationship, right? So that's all I was that's all I was trying to say. But I'm glad we're having this conversation because these are the conversations we need to have to even begin to address some of our preconceived notions of what does it mean to, I mean, we might we are not going to be able to unpack it all in a one-hour show, but even where what what do we define as manhood and what do we define as womanhood?

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

And where do those definitions come from and how well are they serving us?

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Right. And let me say this what you just said was absolutely right, but it's not real in the world because what happens is if I'm getting a divorce and I'm unseen as a good dude with all these degrees, and I'm married, I'm divorcing you, but I want Dr. Bird, and she's looking at all these degrees, and I seem appear to be checking all the boxes. I don't care that you didn't do therapy, I'm gonna be the better woman because my pillow talk to her was you were not a good wife. You were not a good wife, so I'm gonna be better. And yes, my thing is for all women, would you when you're with a man who's divorcing, say, you know what, sweetheart, you're sexy. I'm I'm feeling you, I'm vibing with you. But man, maybe you need to go through something, you know, therapy, whatever you gotta do. And if we're still connected, I'm down with it. But I don't want to inherit what your wife just lost. We both got to do the work because as the woman, I'm gonna be a part of this. You know what I'm saying? And men, we're lazy. Listen to what I say that to you, ladies. We're lazy. If we can get away with the minimum, we will get away with the minimum. We'll never do the extra. To think we will do it, you'll be setting yourself up for failure. And that's real talk. And I work with 60 men a month, and I'm a man telling you how men are. Yeah. Go ahead, uh.

SPEAKER_04 31:05

Yeah, so thank you so much for sharing that um with us, um, uh Khalid. And so, and I definitely value what it is that you have shared. And uh, one of the things that I can lend to the conversation, I believe that everybody has different experiences. Um, everyone has different experiences, and um different lived experiences produce different outcomes and different decision making. I have found men um to be very, very hardworking and not necessarily um to rely on um someone else or be lazy, right? I have found um some men also to be very lazy. And so I would say it depends on their experiences. And so um, and and and so and so that is my perception as a woman. You're speaking as a man, and I can only speak from what I have seen and what I have experienced as a woman in in my work um with men. And so, and and I and I think, and and and so I'm listening to what you're saying, um, particularly about I'm gonna go back to the conversation about a divorce and then you know, whether or not the girlfriend or whatever. I think it is the individual's responsibility right to take care of their own mental health and not rely on whether or not she let me, whether or not you got 10 million degrees or whatever it is, that is your responsibility to take care of your mental health. I don't believe any human being can make somebody else do something else. At the end of the day, it's a choice and a decision that you have to make. And so that's kind of that's that's the way I will look at it. And of course, um, I will speak to my my education and my experience. I cannot speak to being a man because I'm not a man. So thank you for sharing your perspective of how men, how men are, and then um, and so I can only share the lived experiences of men that I have worked with as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Absolutely, absolutely, and thank you for that. And I want this not to be about um what is um what is it? What is the um about the I can't think of the word.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Yeah, it's healthy discourse, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Right, and what happens is if I'm a man in front of a female therapist, just like if I'm in front of a woman who I'm attracted to, I'm gonna show up with my mask on.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Your representative, your representative, your representative, you know what? You are speaking truth, you are the representative, yeah, which which a good therapist can unmask.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Absolutely, and unmask the representative in about session number three. Absolutely. When I'm meeting with those 40 vets at that VA hospital, when I'm meeting with these men who are police officers, construction workers, janitors, CFOs. Oh my goodness. If you all were a fly on the wall, the stories that these men have would shock you. You would run from us men when you talk about how they lure the women. Because what I said earlier was when I'm a domestic violence batterer, I know what victim to go after.

unknown 34:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

I'm not gonna go after you two. Your self-esteem is too high. I'm gonna go after the woman that tells me, yeah, I've been in relationships where they had to manhandle me. I like guys who are a little um rough around the edges, and that tells me the perpetrator, I'll get away with you. You won't call the police on me. Or if you do call the police on me, you'll drop the charges. So everything is very on purpose. Remember, us men are logic-minded. We go to we go to emotion secondary, and that's why I have the when I have these discussions, and especially with an audience of women, what women tend to do that I see as a therapist, they try to disprove me. And that's what's on got us in trouble. That's why there's seven women dead. Because we you want to believe in our worth, and we do have worth, but what I'm saying is I need you all to look at us with lenses that are clear, not rose-colored. Because when you start looking at us with the clear lenses, you see the broken boys in men bodies that we truly are, and that's where we need to get started at. Why are you broken at 55 years old? Because my mom had multiple men come in the house over me. And I thought women were promiscuous because the first woman I love had multiple men in front of me. So I think all women are like that because why wouldn't I? The first woman I love was promiscuous.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

Oh, perhaps I didn't have control over anything. It may not even be promiscuous being promiscuous. It's perhaps I never had control growing up, right? And so I wanted to unpack something that you said about you said I would never go after two of you because your self-esteem is so high. Yet you see a lack of professional women, high earners, highly educated women who stay in toxic relationships and they are married for 20-something years.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

I'm glad you brought that up because I used to work with domestic violence victims, and yes, and I still do. They actually stay.

SPEAKER_04 36:44

And they stay, they stay in relationships 20-something years, 30-something years, and they appear to have very high self-esteem. They're very high earners, and so you have to ask, what are the barriers that keep them in toxic relationships? It's not because their self-esteem is not low, um, is not high, right? So I would just wanted to unpack that a little bit, Khalid, because it's not necessarily what we see, right? That this person is a because I mean, even look at some of your celebrities, right? And and and and and and and they themselves are victims of domestic violence. So I think it is what happened to you that you are unable to leave a toxic relationship. Like I said before, I myself am a survivor, never saw it, was never in my family. I come from a high-earning, well-respected, well-educated family. So it's not something I saw, but I can tell you from my experience, I was inexperienced. It was my first college boyfriend, and I we got married. So, absolutely no experience about anything in the world. And by the time I realized what was going on, I was already married with a child. Now, how do you come from that? And so I think there is no one type of victim.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

There is, yeah, and and I think that that brings me to a point that I have to get into, which is the systems and the silence and the culture. There you are. Because when you when you talk about, like you cannot reach adolescence as a as a girl, as a woman in this culture without having been heckled, right, without having been, you know, sexually undressed, and you know, and all of that. There is a system within our culture. We certainly do not believe that women are entitled to equal pay. Right. And so as we talk about this um the the violence against women, we have to look at our legal system, our culture, our media, and the role that they play in perpetuating these ideas um in preventing or enabling these outcomes. I mean, we can talk about the Epstein files. We can talk about the fact that an adjudicated sexual predator is the president of the United States of America. We can talk about the fact that we're teaching our children about the founding fathers, but not about the fact that they were rapists.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Um, and and and this is all kind of no big deal, right? So how all of that feeds into it, and then women, you know, you just kind of like grin and bear, so to speak. Um, so is it that we're too reactive instead of preventative? Is it the media framing influence or the public perception? What are the gaps in protection and accountability? So, like, how do we start to change this narrative? And and how do we start to better how do how do we change what's going on? How do we better raise our sons and our daughters?

SPEAKER_04 40:07

Yeah, I think I think it's all the systems that you mentioned. All of the systems, it is ingrained in the fabric of this space that we embody right here, whether it is the United States or somewhere else. This is something that is just ingrained because if you think about it, if someone and if someone calls the police, what what what exactly did it happen? Right? Even the questions that are asked, did it happen? If somebody is raped, what were you wearing? Were you drinking? Some of the questions that we ask them. So we have to dismantle the system and we have to really begin not just educated, and we are very reactive. And we only talk about it now because it was on the news. Next month is going to be something else. Next week is going to be something else because we have normalized the dysfunction and the toxicity of domestic violence. And we we march, we wear a ribbon, we celebrate, and then that's it, right? And so I think we need to start teaching it in schools. Like I said, it starts on the playground, it starts in kindergarten. What does a healthy relationship look like? You know, and and and pimp, it starts in the home, right? There's so many different ways that it starts. And and there's the home, there's the school system. We cannot rely on just the schools, and so we have to go back to the home. We have to train the churches, right? If that's where the people definitely have to train the churches, we have to train the churches and tell the pastor you are not qualified to counsel it. Go ahead and give them their spiritual counseling, but you maybe you need a social work-on staff. Maybe you need counsel, real counselors, not just people who go through some little course and get a certificate, but real counselors in the church that can have you know discussions. We need to go back to a model, a community model of treatment. That if someone says I need to go, then there's somebody in the home. There is somebody in the police department that is a liaison who is not a badge wearing officer, right? There is somebody within the legal system that can immediately connect them, and that if I want to leave, then there is a safe house, that I'm not on an extended waiting list, right? And then I have to go back to my perpetrator, that there is somewhere safe that I can go, that I have my passport, that I am believed. How about we start there that if I say it, that I am believed and that there are resources. I'm gonna go back. I was able to get out because I had access to resources, I had voice, I could afford an attorney, I had money, right? I think about the amount of people who languish in a toxic relationship because the police doesn't believe them. They cannot afford an attorney, right? Or the attorney that they have barely shows up to court, or they can't get into a safe house, or the safe house is not safe.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Or in this case, if we look at Dr. Fairfax, um where the courts knew that he was battling alcoholism and he had a gun, and that gun was not taken from him. That gun wasn't taken, they were in the same home.

SPEAKER_04 43:17

Yes, that that's so many things to unpack about that case, and we don't know, right? We don't know all of the details. We don't know all of the details, but those are just some there's so many places we can start. And I've been doing domestic violence work for 20 years, and this conversation we're having today is the conversation we had 20 years ago. Years ago.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

How about you, Dr. Khalid? What are you what are what are you seeing? What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Okay, so working with 20 men in my private practice, 40 men at the V8, and my 10 mentees. So I'm got men in front of me ranging from age 14 to 74, right? Multi general. Generational and I listen for the commonality. And they all have the same foundation. No matter if they had a Cluxable household or the Evans household, right? It's that I'm as a man, as a boy, as a youngster, as an oldster, I've been dismissed. As a black man, I can't be loud. I can't be my authentic self. And I'm angry and I have fury, right? And I'm mad. And the person who I'm gonna take it out on is the person who's safest for me to take it out on. The person right next to me who I love, because they all forgive me, they'll understand my pain, right? And they'll tell me to go and get therapy. But if I'm not ready to talk about my sexual abuse at nine years old by my uncle Big Walter, or the 18-year-old babysitter, you know, who babysat everybody in the community. So I hold it in and I hold it in and I hold it in, just like the lieutenant governor. This all started in 2018. Six, seven, eight years later, he exploded. But in between those years, well, we we don't know when it started, but I'm talking about when the allegation of rape came out. Yeah, he lost his position. Yes, yes, we start at that point seven years ago, seven years of this madness brewing, and then who did he take it out on? The person that he was supposed to love in the house that they created with the children that they created in the house, right? And that's what I'm saying that men are taking all of these traumas and dysfunctions, and they've been able to get away with it because we pacify, because I don't want to get that black man angry, I want to soothe him. That doesn't do any good. I tell my co-workers, my female co-workers at the VA, stop being light with those veterans. Because as you see, the minute you tell them no, they curse you out. By me being a veteran and me being a man, I'm telling that, I was in basic training like you. The army or the military taught us this. That's in you. That's in you about good uh um uh resiliency. Pull it out. I had a veteran tell me, um, Dr. Scott, I was mad at you when you told me I shouldn't have to ask you for toilet paper. He said, I got so mad on that long bus ride home. I got home, opened up the one ads. Two weeks later, I found me a job at O'Hare Airport because it took me to have another man tell me that I was not living up to my potential. But when I told my female co-workers that same story, they're like, Khalid, you made him feel bad about getting toilet paper. That was not my intent. What I knew is that man who I'm tailoring my approach with, because I wouldn't say that to every veteran, but I knew it was something about him that he was not feeling fulfilled. And I needed to give him that man shake to say, you're better than this, Mr. Veteran. Do better. And he did two weeks later. Now he's earning his own paycheck and he's in substance abuse treatment. Because the reason why he didn't have money for the toilet paper, because he spent it on heroin that morning, right? So we all have different lenses, right? We all have different approaches. We have to learn these men individually. So these seven men who killed these seven women, they all come from different walks. We would, if they were in front of us, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:06

We would so first we got to get them into therapy, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Yes, or some type of intervention where they can start addressing the wounds. See, we've been putting band-aids on top of those wounds, but think about that image. Usually you have to take the band-aid off and let the air hit the wound so it can really, you know, be cured, right? But if we keep putting band-aids on and band-aids on and band-aids on, it never gets it never gets healed, and it gets worse.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

So, what so what is what is preventing black men from getting therapy?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Um, stigmatation. That's what white men do, that's what Asian men do, that's what Hispanic men do. I'm tough. Let me eat some buffalo wings, drink some beer, and watch the Chicago Bears, and then that's gonna make me feel okay. No, that's not doing it anymore. Now I got to come and see a Dr. Scott, a Dr. Bird, and say to them, I'm hurt, I'm damaged. Please help me because I'm ready for you to help me. But if a man is not ready, he will be no good. I've had men come and do marriage therapies with their wives because the wives wanted to save the marriage. The husbands were like, I'm being emotionally um blackmailed to participate. I really don't want to be here because I've cheated on her five times and she forgave me. So why wouldn't I do it for the sixth time? Right? This is the mindset, and this is where the real work is having to work that mindset. So it's layered. That's what I think I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

This is not a it sure is layered because what I'm hearing is on some level, um, can we say this on radio? Damned if she do, damned if she don't, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Due to his brokenness. If his brokenness is severe, it feels like a no-win until he's ready to put the hard work in. Yeah, that's what it is. A lot of those women saw the red flags, you gotta know that. But they thought, Oh my goodness, he's good, he's good with the kids, he goes to work every day. So if I got to deal with him cursing me out out of the bigger scheme, and then I got all my girlfriends who are single, and I don't want to be back out there on the street because the monster in the house, I'm familiar with him. I don't know about the dragon outside, and I don't feel like putting the work in after I put 24 years with this monster.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

Oh, how do I unravel the lie, the facade?

SPEAKER_01 50:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

Oh, talk about that. After you've built up the facade, right? And and and and and and this is this is the face that you have put out, how do I unravel it? How do I go and tell my girlfriends, hey, this is not what you really think, right? It's it's literally un so if so, if I'm living a lie, then okay, how did I allow this to happen? Then it begins the self-blame, right? And then you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say, when did this happen? Not realizing you know that that that that that it's not you like you didn't just get yourself into the situation. This is something that developed, and this person has an issue that is separate from yours. And both of you need counseling. You need to be empowered and rebuilt, and they need to go to a batterer's intervention program, which is completely separate, right? Completely separate. And so, and I think that's what we get with high-earning power women who are unable to leave toxic relationships. Um, and then there, and then you also look at people who are desperately reliant on their on their partner, right? Because they need the finances, they're trying to save it for the children, and then some really love that partner, they're hoping something changes, particularly if you never had a solid family foundation and you have built in your head the image of a family that you want to keep. How do I now let all of this go? Even if it's not real, right? Pictures look real.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

That's it. Doc, you hit it. You hit it, and we walk in that, and that's why when I'm hearing 45 of my friends say I'm divorcing, bravo. Yeah, because I heard 10 years ago the smacks and the cursing and the yelling, and now their 20-something-year-old kids are acting out because guess what? We stayed because we wanted to be Heathcliff and Claire in front of our kids, but the kids heard the arguments at midnight, and now our 22-year-old daughter dates a guy who yells at her. Why? Because mom stayed with dad.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Yeah, and unfortunately, some people are there are there resources available for people who are listening right now who are saying I'm ready for help, or I want to help intervene in the lives of you know a loved one or a friend. Are there resources that you all can recommend? Uh, I know you were about to say something else, Dr. Bird.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

See, I was I was gonna say some people value longevity rather than the truth, right? To say I've been married 20-something and 30 years old rather than for the past 10 years, this has been hell. Um, and yes, there are definitely resources. There's Dr. Khalid. Um, I am an It's a Journey Counseling right here in the Khalen um um central Texas um area. So there's it's it's a journey counseling. There are five therapists in our office. You can call any one of us. Um, we're able to help you. Um, if you are someone and you know someone who is living in a situation where they are domestic violence, the first thing I will say is to keep a journal. Um, definitely talk to your friend and let them know that they are valued, that they deserve to be safe. Um, the most dangerous time is when that victim decides to leave, right? So you definitely want to ensure that they have a safety plan. A safety plan. Connect them with resources. There's families in crisis if you're here in the central Texas area. There is also the 800 hotline for domestic violence. We do have individuals around the nation that is waiting to take your call to help get you to safety. I would say if you are a friend, document what you see, document what you hear, keep the dates, keep the times, um, take photographs, even though you have not done anything with the photographs. Take the photographs of the bruises and just keep it and make sure you date stamp everything and just document. Your friend may not be ready to leave today, but when they are, you want to ensure that you have that documentation so that you can help them.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Absolutely. Excellent, doc.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

And we'll have all this information also. Um, for those of you who are listening on the radio, come over to our YouTube channel and we'll have all this information in the YouTube description. Yes, please go ahead, Dr. Scott.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

This is one of the best um um um prevention finders, one of the best resources. Your cell phone. Yeah, go to Google and type in whatever you need, and hundreds of listings come down right here at your fingertips, something that you hold on to every day, all day. PsychologyToday.com. Any therapist is on there, and you just have to type in your your um area code and it gives you a listing of therapists, domestic um um shelters, there just type in Google for your area. You know what I'm saying? We're here now. So we've taken away that's um that's that old mindset that the sort resources are limited. We again, when we started this conversation, I say we'll never be unemployed unless we choose to be, because the clients are there. You know, there are more services coming to place for free. You know, you have EAP at your job that will give you six to eight free sessions for you and your family members, but you have to tap in, but you have to first, you know, go through the um um um the the the the the um the mindset of change, right? Get rid of the ambivalence and say, I'm ready now to put the work in and I'll do what I got to do. When I got divorced, I put me and my daughter into therapy because I knew how traumatic the divorce would be, and it worked. My daughter is a first year medical student, but when they start looking at these wonderful podcasts that you create, Aya, then they'll get this information. But we gotta want to do the work, and we all gotta listen to one another. So, ladies, the next time a man is talking, listen to him fully because what us men do do, we tell you our truth even when we're lying to you. That's good. You are that that Dr.

SPEAKER_02 57:16

Burge, you know, and and and and that's Maya Angela told us believe them the first time. Believe them the first time. Oh well, I want to thank you both. Um, I reached out to you at really short notice. Thank you for taking us through this conversation um on a very difficult topic. Our hearts go out to those young children, they're not the only ones dealing with this. Um, my heart just breaks for the last moments for for each of these women, for the the lives that are left behind. Um, there are many of us who know people who are in situations or who are listening today who are in these situations. And what I would say is, you are worth fighting for.

SPEAKER_05 57:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

And so do what you need to do to get out and not to feel any guilt about I'm the one destroying my family or pulling this person down. They made their choices and your life is worth fighting for. If you have children, their lives are worth fighting for. And take advantage of the resources that are available to you. Again, thank you to our wonderful guests. Please reach out for help. The information is going to be on our YouTube channel. Thank you to all of you who've helped us reach 14,000 subscribers. Continue to like what we do here. Subscribe, share, help us to continue to grow and to build our community. And we'll see you back here next week. Thank you.