HFF26 Discover Fringe Industry Event: Building Your Show Beyond Fringe, Co-Hosted by Dropout

PRE ROLL Artlist Musical Logos - Positive Persistent Pluck Sequence 2

OPENING MUSIC IS BY MILANO - 'On the Move'

WEBSITE: https://www.hollywoodfringe.org

INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/hollywoodfringe/

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@HollywoodFringe

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:31

Hello, live stream. We've gone live. Um, we're gonna start on a five uh five minute delay. So uh welcome, get comfortable, the panel's about to start. You're in for a treat. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 6:44

Okay. These mics are for the live stream, not for this, but they're helpful for us to be able to provide accessibility. Hi, live stream. We're gonna start in just a second. Hello, everybody. Hi, welcome. Hollywood Fringe, it's nice to see you all. We're gonna start the panel now. Thank you all so much. Before we get started, the Hollywood Fringe acknowledges that we are on the unceded lands of the Tongva Gabriel's peoples. Gabriel Gabrielenio's peoples, thank you. Um our statement serves as a practice as we commit to furthering our connection to indigenous communities, past, present, and emerging. Um I also wanted to let people know that we are live streaming today. So if you have any uh you want to reference this at any time, it's going to be available on the Hollywood Fringe YouTube. It'll also be a podcast later. Um and so you're welcome to share it around. Um I'm gonna jump in quickly. It's only an hour. There will be time for questions, so do not worry. But we're gonna cover a lot of things at once. And the whole point of today is demystification. It's not this is the pathway for you. It's about these are the pathways that these fine folks have taken and being able to kind of see what little pieces from each you can take to build your own. Um before we get started, I just want to know what your name, your pronouns, and your affiliation with Fringe is and or dropout. And I'm gonna start first. I'm Alan, I'm one of the co-executive directors of Fringe. Uh Lois is somewhere else. My pronouns are she, they, and as a visual description, which is another thing I forgot to mention, um, we do visual descriptions for people who are watching here who might be blind or low vision and want to have some reference for who's talking. Um, I'm a white woman, I have brown bangs, I'm wearing an all-brown ensemble, and we're sitting in front of a like lit up Hollywood fringe stage that has some pretty pictures on it. All right, I'm gonna pass it over to you, David. Could you do a first one?

SPEAKER_08 8:41

Yes. Uh I'm David Kearns. I'm the chief operating officer and executive producer at Dropout. And I he him, and what else? Oh yeah. I'm a white man with dark brown hair, wearing a off pinkish uh henley and black jeans.

SPEAKER_06 9:00

And then what uh your experience with fringe?

SPEAKER_08 9:02

Uh I'm a fringe lover and appreciator. I actually was in fringe, Hollywood fringe, 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_06 9:11

It's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_08 9:12

I know that. Yeah, yeah, and there we go. And I went to, yeah, so uh lover and appreciator, um here you go.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

Hi, uh my name is Courtney Perroso. Uh she her. I am wearing uh like pinkish t-shirt and I'm a white woman and black jeans and gorgeous. Uh um and my experience with fringe is I um I did Edinburgh Fringe and I was fortunate enough to have one of my shows produces a special for dropout TV. So yeah.

SPEAKER_09 9:47

Um hello, my name is Chris Grace. Uh he, him, pronouns. I uh have done Hollywood Fringe twice. I'm also on the Access Advisory Board for Hollywood Fringe. Um I have um uh my show I did at Edmund Fringe and also did uh as a special on dropout. I also write for Game Changer and make some noise. Uh I am um Chinese American man uh wearing a sort of light blue shirt. I'm in my 50s, but look like I'm in my 40s. I could go for if 25, I could audition for 25.

unknown 10:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 10:23

So just picture all that. I think that makes sense. I once auditioned for the live action Mulan for a part that was 18 years old.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Sick.

SPEAKER_09 10:34

And when I went in the room, the casting director just started laughing.

SPEAKER_06 10:38

You miss all the shots you didn't take, you know? You gotta try. Um, well, it's so lovely. I know you very well, and I'm so excited to get to know you too. But um, how tired are you? I just really like I think that like what is what has been such like a conversation for all of us is like it has been a very brutal five years for us here in Los Angeles and the performing arts scene. How is that kind of for you guys? Is that kind of in the same realm? I know that you've been in the performing arts and film and TV, are both in that same kind of phase.

SPEAKER_04 11:11

I have the mic, so I feel obligated to begin. Um I uh I have a 16-month-old son, so I'm a little tired all the time uh from that. Uh, but I also kind of dipped out of worrying about some stuff for a while to worry about that. Um so I don't know if that's a good or a bad answer, but I uh yeah, I don't know, things are always changing, so I try not to get too disheartened by things that I can't control in terms of like the business and the industry. I mean, you guys are all artists, we're all artists. You gotta just keep doing your stuff and try to let you know let go of things that you can't control.

SPEAKER_09 11:55

Uh I don't feel that tired. I sometimes feel sort of overwhelmed by um a lot of the things I think I'm supposed to be doing at any point. Like I have uh I'm doing a workshop for Edinburgh, for instance, this year, and I'm doing some cities in the UK on my way up to Scotland, and the booker over there is like the ticket sales are really light. And I'm like, yeah, hey, can we start? And in my mind, um every day that goes by, I'm like, I should put up some kind of cool video that sparks people's interest, and then like I then I put my head down on a pillow, and then it then it's the next day. But um, I feel a little overwhelmed sometimes about like um as a solo performer or stand-up, you know, how we have to sort of have to become like full freelance entrepreneurs, uh small business owners, we have to book our own things, do our own logistics, and like I don't know, increasingly it feels like we have to um wear every single hat at once. And and you know that there's other people that are better at doing like editing your videos and stuff like that. But uh one, you don't necessarily want to delegate, and two, it's expensive.

SPEAKER_06 13:07

Yeah, sometimes like delegating can cost as much time as like maybe paying somebody to do it. Getting them to have your vision can sometimes be that like a time cost that you don't have, even if you do have the budget.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 13:19

Um and I yeah, I'm well I'm also I'm also tired in that um I have a three-week old time but I it's but uh so I'm I'm on paternity leave right now and a three-year-old, but um, but I'm very happy because it's like people. Uh like um uh but I'd say, I mean, uh that was really an interesting way to put it, Chris, because I also see from my perspective at dropout kind of just how the industry is going. It seems to be very much the case that as an independent artist and creator doing your own work, you need to be your own brand and you need to be your own small business manager, as you said, logistics and everything else, and the the level of prioritization that you need to have in order to keep all those things. What do I do today or next can be overwhelming because there are so many things and so many potential pathways that could be fruitful or completely not, um depending on somebody else's advice. And I I I and I mean for the past five years at Dropout, we've had we've had amazing success. And I think that that's uh you know, a little bit of good fortune and good timing and good luck, and and a little bit of just like how the industry is go going overall, this massive consolidation that there are places like Dropout being one, but there are many other independent um uh digital, whatever that means anymore, um, independent creators that are that are flourishing and have great opportunities, whether it's something as big, little as Dropout, or something like Smosh, or individual in creators that are just becoming more and more popular on YouTube, TikTok, whatever it is that are pushing people to your show, to your brand, whatever, before you kind of can leverage that for financial uh prosperity. Um so it's an interesting, it's an interesting time.

SPEAKER_06 15:13

Yeah, and sorry to surprise you with that question. I think it's just so good for us all to like realize that it's it is a climb, like a constant climb. And I think that a lot of the times artists will come and they'll be like, oh, I'm just I'm really burned out. And I'm like, well, maybe you need to take a break and come back in a little bit. And and building that sustainability into your career because it is an any level. I don't know anybody who's not just kind of clawing their way through. And so bringing that like transparency into the conversation makes it so much easier for you to ask like the tough questions. And my first question is how do you know when something you have has legs? Like, how do you know that it's like ready to develop into something larger? If you have this little idea and you've played it once or twice, or maybe you've done a little run at fringe, how do you know, ah, I should keep doing this one?

SPEAKER_09 16:04

I was wondering if you do know that. Um I have I think I've learned to trust my own instincts more because I there were both of the shows that I did at Hollywood Fringe that I took to Edinburgh. It was hard for me to describe. Unfortunately, I have a thing where if I'm describing a project of mine, people don't really see it until I do the whole project. Like I can describe it and pitch it and stuff and say, Well, I think it's gonna be like this or whatever, and they'll be like, Okay, I don't know, it sounds weird or whatever. And then I write and do the whole show, and then they're like, Oh, I knew this was gonna be good the whole time. So I I don't I don't know. Last year in Edinburgh, I did a different show every day of the month, um, which was the best time I've ever had at Edinburgh. It was very stressful. But I did the 27 shows, there wasn't I thought I would come out of it being like, oh, this was the one people really respond. I should do this one. And what I found actually more was I had 27 ideas that were all like pretty good, and I don't know if any one of them I'd want to do for you know a long time. So I don't know, it was more about how I felt doing it than like, oh, I got a standing ovation because of this one I did, I'm gonna do that one. So I but it's hard to um because sometimes you tell people like trust your instincts, and then they'll be like, Yeah, I really that's also when they do a show and you give them notes and they ignore all your notes, and you're like, this show still sucks three years later. And they're like, I really trusted myself, and you're like, maybe you shouldn't have. Yeah, I don't know how to find the difference between those two.

SPEAKER_06 17:40

It's really hard because you need feedback and confidence, and it's like those are two opposite like things to really taking feedback is hard, and figuring out what feedback actually matters is hard.

SPEAKER_09 17:51

You know, I will say when you do your shows, one thing I've noticed about my own shows is um so in my show, the Scarlet Johansson show that became a dropout present thing, I still did that um live until mid last year. And there's still about a four, there's two like different two three minute parts in that show that I'm like, that still isn't as good as I want it to be. And when I do it live, I'm gonna I come up to that section and I'm like, ah, it's that section again. And I think I still I still haven't figuring out how to do this part, right? And then I just did a run of my other show called Sardines in New York like last month. And that show, I don't have any of those blank spots. Like so one thing to think about is when you're actually doing the show, you know how you have some chunks you're just like, all right, I did this is connective tissue to the next part. I just have to, but it's not that fun or that interesting. Like that is something to listen to your internal, like uh I don't I'm not looking forward to showing an audience this part of the show. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

Yeah, yeah, I think that that's so true what you said about those parts where you're like, ah, I should have fixed that. Like, I I still have a couple parts in both of my shows where I'm like, I should write a better joke, and I've been doing it for so many years. So don't be like that. Um, but also you know, like I I think yeah, you have to listen to yourself. Are you still having fun doing it? If it's torture and you feel like you're up against a wall, maybe this isn't it, you know? Um, like it's your life, like you should be having fun and enjoying it. Like it shouldn't be like, I'm gonna force this down people's throats if you don't even like doing it. Like so follow your pleasure in that way. Um and not to say like if you've failed or you've made something that you don't feel good about doesn't mean that you can't take them information and go make something better and different, you know? Like you have to throw shit against the wall. It's so important. So your failures are all gifts. If you made a show where you're like, I actually don't ever want to do that ever again. Like it's not a failure, it's good information, and I'm sure you learned something. And I'm sure in terms of like, does it have legs to like become a bigger thing? It's so hard to say. Like, you just have to keep doing it, and yeah, like you do have to listen to the audience and feedback, you know, like be honest with yourself if it seems like people are enjoying it. And it's so good to have people that you really trust to come see the show that you can take their feedback and do it. But also be careful because some people want to give you notes, and you're like, you just want to give me notes, and I don't agree with that. So it is this like push and pull of like listening to yourself and listening to outside voices and just being very uh considered, I guess, about who you whose notes and feedback you take to heart.

SPEAKER_08 20:47

That's great. I mean, and from a very different perspective on this topic, and from what I'm hearing from you all and observe from other people, I'd also just say like it's the process, it seems like, you know, like you're um you're gonna learn uh things as you go along, and it doesn't have to be the per your first ever friend show or your first ever blank doesn't have to be the end all be all. I think I knew somebody that um was like I gotta make a feature film and had never made a short film ever before and was like right into feature and raised all this money and made a feature and it was fine, you know, and then never did it again. And it was like, well, like because it failed. It's like that you did it, you why you that was the first step. Like if you're going to go make feature films, then do the legwork of all the steps and all the incremental things that you need to learn along the way, which includes a whole lot of other smaller projects to lead up to that. And I think uh a lot of fringe stuff when I you know, uh I haven't seen Sardines, but I've heard so much about it, and I know that like you know, um your uh ne neither of your sh your uh dropout specials were your first ever short um one person shows, was it Chris?

SPEAKER_09 22:04

It was right.

SPEAKER_06 22:05

Oh damn it. Well he's but you'd done it for a while because you did it at Hollywood Fridge. I was fifty years old. I should have had done one before, so but that you also had the experience of being at Edinburgh for years with a group and with baby one. Candy, right? Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. So there's also like that work that you put in together.

SPEAKER_09 22:27

My first one man show when I was 22. I don't think anybody would have wanted to see that.

SPEAKER_08 22:33

Uh, but it's a process, yeah, yeah, you know, and and I think, and I think I'm again outsider kind of perspective on this specifically, like I would just say treat it like the process that it is, um, and have your ex and but go once you're decided, once you have a date and you have a show, commit to it fully, but don't expect that that thing is going to lead to um uh baby reindeer, right? Um yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:04

Edinburgh Fringe always tells us they're like, everybody wants to be this, but baby reindeer, these people, they knew them for 10 years, you know, like they knew them for so man so long before they got this this level of acclaim.

SPEAKER_09 23:16

It used to be everyone to be fleaback. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:19

But she had the same. Yeah. I mean, she went to she like there's so many places that she went that are the same as the Hollywood Fringe touring places.

SPEAKER_09 23:26

Also, she's independently wealthy. Um she's like descended from like landed gentry or something like that. Uh so she had the time to like work on her one-person show. Um, I w I wanted to highlight something though, which is that um the the idea of it being a climb, which is like, I think if you described like any of our levels of achievement with the shows or whatever, everybody would be like many people would be like, Oh, I'd love to even have a special on dropout or whatever. And I still feel like like at least for me, I don't feel that settled in terms of like like having the dropout special was great and it's opened a lot of doors, but it doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't feel like oh okay, I I'm I'm good now. Like uh it's just cruising now. Like I just make a show, I put it up, whatever. Like, that's my perception of Mike Brabiglia, right? And I bet Mike Brabiglia feels the same way that he's constantly struggling, and so in the sense that it's a climb, I think the visceral feeling of it doesn't feel that different than five, 10 years ago in a way. Yeah, the external success is more easily legible, I think, but I don't know. The end I've never gotten to appealing where it felt just like now it's easy.

SPEAKER_06 24:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 24:40

Unfortunately, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 24:43

It's good to know. It's good to know because you can you don't feel crazy. Um, how do you translate a show made for the stage and live audiences into something digital? Um, and how do you like make sure it doesn't lose its theatrical magic that makes you feel like you're sitting in the room with the performer? I'm curious how Vanessa did.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

Well oh God. My special Vanessa 5000 was like a live show that became a special, and I think just because it was visual and the concept was sort of it's about a sex robot, and so you can see a picture of that and be like, oh, I know what that's about, or like I'm gonna watch that, you know. It just lended itself maybe to become a special in that way. Like I will say, my first show, I've been doing it since 2019. It's called Gutter Plum, which is a made-up word that makes no sense, and uh still couldn't really describe the show in a log line to you, and don't really want to because I'm like, yeah, it's supposed to be mysterious or whatever, you know. So I made the first thing I made was like not really pitchable, sellable or anything. Uh but yeah, I mean, we had a dropout, had a great team. So that's what helped me turn Vanessa into a special, and it just happened to be something that translated fairly well, I think. I mean, I I'm really proud of it. I don't, you know, I'm not so I I think it translated well to being filmed, and it was just the nature of what I'd already made. I wasn't thinking about it. Um in terms of like if you want to take what you're working on now and like make a series or make uh make something else with it, I don't have any tangible advice to give you except for that just experiment. Like maybe you don't know, like throw something up and see if it takes off. You know, you probably all have different kinds of shows and maybe their characters or I don't know, any clowns in here?

SPEAKER_06 26:38

All right.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Okay, all right. Um and there's a lot of the festival though.

SPEAKER_06 26:42

There's like 40 that's here. There's a clown takeover.

unknown 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:45

Um, so I I don't know if that's good advice. Like I think you just have to try stuff and not have not be so precious about it working or not working. And you'll see if the it you lose the magic, or maybe you maybe it gets even more magical. You don't know what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_09 27:04

Um, for the Scarlet show that we don't dropout, I uh specifically wanted it to be for the home viewer. Um so I remember when Sam offered the like the idea of working on the special, and I remember I think he said, like, we can't offer you as much money as like a Netflix would be. Not like Netflix was knocking on the door. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, I'll consider these options. Um, but I remember thinking it doesn't matter if somebody else wants me to do it with them, because at Dropout, it was pretty much just like if Sam and David want to do it, we're gonna do it. And it didn't have to go up, I don't think it had to go up any other approvals, right? And then I was basically allowed to just do whatever I wanted. So like it was there was so little creative like control put on me. And so when I pitched, I said, I want it to be like for the person at home watching it, because that's the main venue you're gonna watch it. And it's I want it to be for someone who's watched a lot of dropout. So like it's the dropout version is pretty different than the my regular live version, and uh it's funny now. I read all the Letterboxd reviews, and uh on Letterboxd, somebody was like, Well, this isn't that good if you don't get all the dropout references. I was like, Well, how are you watching it then? Because it's only it's only on dropout subscription. So either you have a subscription or you're at your friend's house and your friend should be explaining the references to you, you know. Um so that is but but for my I'm just I just filmed the new show in New York, and that's a harder show to like translate to the what the home. So that one is sort of a more it's a record of a live performance in a way. Um but I I do think you should think about when you put it to digital, you have an opportunity to shape so many external factors about how it exists that you should think about what is special about your piece, how should it live, and also what's what are some things that the medium or presentation that you want to do can do that like you can't do in live theater. So there's things in the dropout version that just you you they could not exist live, right? There's some things in my live version of Scarlet that we can't do on dropout or were difficult to do. So like there was uh in the live version, there's like layering of like audio in a way, and it's sort of like not clear in the space you're in what's happening or who is owning the space. And that's much harder to translate in a very literal form like TV, because in TV, it's like I gotta see a photo of the person talking, and then it's very everything's immediately committed to like reality with a camera, right? Whereas theater is better at layering metaphors on top of each other. So that's just something to think about. Like, I mean, I feel like at least one of your Hollywood Friends shows should become one of those vertical video dramas. You know what I'm talking about? Uh which I would this fall I want to make some because I I love those so much. The one I saw was um, it's called Stop. That homeless man is actually a war hero. Uh and it's a 60-part vertical video drama. I bet one of your like that's like a burging industry here in Hollywood.

SPEAKER_06 30:18

It's so it really is. It's become a very popular way that a lot of people have been able to pitch themselves independently as well because you're literally engaging people 60 times versus once.

SPEAKER_08 30:30

Yeah. Um, on the question of uh how to translate live to digital, I mean, I love this so much um because I've worked in like digital and TV and narrative for a while and love film and I worked pretty closely on both of your drop-bout specials. And um I love that translation. And for me, I think like it's it's it's thinking through the um um who you're talking to, what the viewing experience will be like, and then what are the emotional um through lines that you want to convey like tonally and vibe-wise to your audience, um, just as you would in a theater, right? Like you're gonna go black, complete blackout or whatever it is, or stark, whatever, or as Chris started his, literally talking to the audience um as the show is starting. Um and and that, you know, the beginning, what your tone is at the very beginning or throughout, needs to be translated in film. Uh, so how do you convey that? What are the pieces of of little things that you need, or or music or whatever it is that is that is tonally part of that conveyance? It was very important, I thought, Chris, that we like left in the special, the the little preamble of you talking to people that were in the live audience because it was such a an introduction to you and the tone that you were setting, and you were hyper aware of the the narrative interaction that was happening because of the dropout audience.

SPEAKER_09 32:04

Yeah, we also told the live audience that like the show was not actually for them. Yeah. Um, like I was basically like you guys are sort of props for the personnel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 32:15

And and Courtney's, I think that the beginning too was very important. And I think it was it was a cleaner, it was like for anything, it's like the live audience, the laughter is a very important element to understanding that this is a live performance. So conveying that with wide shots where you see people's heads or whatever the thing is, that we can hear people that you feel that you're part of an audience that is experiencing that thing live was an important element, I thought, throughout. Um, but like it's a big, bold, stark beginning, right? And so we had to make sure that that was conveyed in the um in the in the version that we saw. So, like the full screen, like this is what this looks like at the sex convention as it's being rolled out, you know, very symmetrical, very stark, right? Like it had a big, bold beginning because that's how the show was, um, so that you could um play in the clown experience because you had a very set, clear understanding of what your world was. Um, so just set understanding what your your conveyances and then like, how would you do it in theater? Okay, how would you do it with cameras and shots? And it might not be just what's in the room, and it might actually be little pieces of things that you might need to add on to convey that same emotional resonance, especially at the beginning. I think beginnings are so important.

SPEAKER_06 33:37

Let's talk about branding. Um, Fringe has a dedicated community, dropout has a very loyal audience and following. How can independent producers kind of create that own like brand of audience and kind of get somebody to know, oh, this show's for me? Or this performer is. That's David. So wait, can you um like a like what is it that turns like a casual viewer into like a super fan um into your brand? Like what what happens? Is it accidental? Is it I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_08 34:11

Uh I I I I I mean, i if if nothing else, I think that there's a degree that has worked and continues to work for a dropout that we're aware of, which is authenticity and consistency. Yeah. Um, if nothing else. Um you know, like you know, Sam is, I mean, there's veneers and there's versions of people that you play up in certain scenarios for humor, but like Sam is that guy, and he actually loves nothing more than to like play pranks on people and like have weird, uh creep, you know, fun with people. Um uh not weird, creepy. I mean, I mean like creepy was a wrong word. But like, you know, doing game changer as a show is also a hundred percent of Sam's um personality, I would say, and he and he loves it so much. Um and like we're if if nothing else, we're brutally consistent um with just, and we have we have the ability to do so because we're uh, you know, a growing company now and and have people that are on a social media team, et cetera. But like just hitting people with we're gonna do this, we're gonna do a show, we're gonna do a character, we're gonna do whatever. Let's post a new thing multiple times every week to make sure that that brand is super specific and that people that are flipping through it are finding that um consistently. And uh for better or for worse, right now, vertical social media, vertical video social media is the way that most people find things. That's you know, the the bulk of dropouts uh marketing arm is organic vertical video um and just consistency within that world until you can leverage in a good and you know um mutually uh agreed, you know, come you like this, come subscribe to Dropout. There's a lot more of this in full um in full versions, etc. But like you can once you have an audience and the consistency, you can leverage that um to hey, did you like this? I'm doing this character at this live event, come buy tickets to it. I have a Patreon, support me so I can do more of this. Um, I have a subscription service. Um, come and join the party. It's over here. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:30

What about on a more micro level for a friend? I know like it's hard to compare a company to an individual, but is there anything that like helps you kind of build where people could be like, oh, you know, that's the clown that does these types of shows? Or is it that you just kind of play in your whole realm?

SPEAKER_09 36:45

Um I it's a hard question. It's a hard question to answer because I like I have a Patreon. Um but I guess there's a part of me that's like a little resistant to being like, oh, you want me to do that kind of show again? I'm not doing that again. You know? Like, I like you know, I bet if my second show, the second show was harder for me to market than the first show. The first show was like, I would at Edinburgh, I would show people a flyer of me dressed as Scarlett Johansson, and people would be like, Oh, I gotta see that. That looks crazy. Second show was me in a white outfit being like, this show is about death, and people would be like, All right. Um but I bet if my second show was like Chris Gray says Renee Zellwigger, you know, uh, I bet I would have sold tickets to it. Um and like it's a weird thing where eventually your niche ends up being just you and your taste, your specific set of like aesthetic, what you think should be shows, but that feels very hard to quickly define to people. Totally. Um so because it's weird. It's like, oh, my brand is I'm I think I'm smart and I make interesting, funny shows that are nuanced about a variety of topics, and also I make board game content. That's my brand. And here I made this logo that expresses all of that. Um, you know, like I don't know, it's it's hard to I I think sometimes artists have a feel I have this feeling that the branding discussion feels constricting a little bit, and in a way that's like not even necessarily realistic. I mean, it's like when I was in theater school and I was people would be like, you should do a lot of comedies, and I'd be like, I'm gonna do comedies, I can do comedies and dramas. I meanwhile I had no jobs whatsoever, but I was like, I'm so much more than this imaginary restriction you've put upon me. So I don't know the answer to that. I I I think that um like last year at Edinburgh, I didn't do any marketing. I bought one poster outside and I handed I had flyers on me, but I didn't like hire a flyering team and the Edinburgh's like the rare to be do that at Edinburgh. Like oh so blean. As a result, I had a I didn't sell out the run, but I sold more tickets than I thought it would. And it was interesting, the audience was really warm, and I realized, oh, that's because they had to like look me up to come, like they were not, they were not marketed into the show, they like sought out the show. So these are people like sort of on my they presumably have liked things I did before and want to see me do it again. So I thought that was interesting. I didn't realize that till the end of the month, really.

SPEAKER_04 39:30

Totally. Um okay, so I feel like, yeah, I think maybe as artists, sometimes we like go like, uh, branding, like uh I don't want to do that, or you know, it feels like I know I feel myself being like resistant to it, and then I'm but I'm thinking about it and I'm like, but I think if people were to know me, they'd be like, oh that clown girl, she's kind of naked sometimes. So I guess like over the years I have cultivated a brand for myself, you know? And partially yeah, like on purpose, and also just by you know, you you see what people are responding to.

SPEAKER_09 40:13

Sorry, this is uh Do you think you could the other people in the clown world? Yeah, could you brand them and be like, this person's like this?

SPEAKER_04 40:21

Yeah, I mean, I think like as like, you know, there's like a little our little scene has its own brand at this point, but I will say we've been some of us have been working together for almost 10 years at this point. So it is just a matter of like doing things over and over and over again, and your brand kind of emerges because it's like the thing you're doing and the thing that people are liking and the thing that people are talking about. I mean, so much of everything is actually just word of mouth. Um but yeah, like in terms of being intentional about it, yeah, you can I I I think like with social media and and that kind of stuff, like have fun with it, if that, you know, and and then see it's all experimentation, you know, or that's the way I like to approach it because that's what makes it fun. And then it's you can kind of be a little loose with it and you don't have to uh don't overthink it in a way, you know.

SPEAKER_06 41:14

Is that a that I don't no that's that you answered it a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 41:18

I I think um, at least for me, this is what's potentially not I don't know, not depressing is not the right word, but there's something about the algorithm that's trouble troubles me because like on TikTok, the best thing you could do is like throw a bunch of stuff at the wall, and then the one that blows up, you just you then do that video over and over every single day. So it there are so many people that have succeeded on TikTok that are like like there's a woman that does these um LA food reviews, and every single video starts with like the LA food scene is a scam, and I'm here to tell you why. And then like the rest of the video is not really scam, whatever, but it's always got this provocative beginning, or you know, like every day, like every day I'm gonna open up a McDonald's apple pie and shove it in my face, and like I put that video up every day over and over, and you do sort of get rewarded for that consistency, yeah, but I then the artist side of us is just like, well, I don't want to do that. Like totally, you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 42:20

It's like finding that balance between what you actually want to do and what sells you, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 42:24

And I just I that's why I'm worried about the algorithms sort of pushing our artist souls into these like buckets that are easily sold.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

Just to piggyback on that, yeah. I think you know, I'm not like some social media whiz. I I don't enjoy it in that way. But, you know, I think if you're worried about like going viral and and and you know, it has this many views, it doesn't necessarily matter as much as the specific people that happen to see and respond to it. Like you don't have to have a huge following and have so many views to have a page or have have stuff that if someone that you admired saw it, you would be happy for them to see it and that they would understand something about you, you know. So it doesn't have to be about going huge or or even doing stuff every day. Like some people are great at that and some people have are like very prolific. I'm not, I will never be, and I understood that about myself. So I try to do like high quality stuff every once in a while so that if somebody happened to see it, I would like that they saw it.

SPEAKER_10 43:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:35

Um, how can independent creators actually get their work in front of people uh if they're ready to they feel like they're ready to take something to the next level? How do you start to invite industry? Like, how do you start to get people involved in developing your project further with you? How did that start for you?

SPEAKER_09 43:54

I think um I think a lot of it comes through the relationships that come from whatever your fringe community is. Um the first person that like put that committed to producing the Scarlet Show in Edinburgh was someone I had known for years through the Edinburgh scene. Um and the people that saw it here in LA were people that I knew through comedy or the Hollywood fringe scene. So I I do think like your arc over, say, five years of doing Hollywood Fringe or whatever, there is a thing of like seeing familiar faces. And, you know, like the first time you do a show at the Broadwater or whatever, it's like kind of like, what, what's what's going on? I have to get my own box office, but what's going on? Yeah, whatever. And then, you know, you see familiar faces and you know, you have the same tech you had the year before. Um, and so that's sort of where the people that ended up seeing the show for me came from. And then I think Sam saw Scarlet in Edinburgh, maybe. Um but that like my connection to Sam came through doing stand-up with Elaine, Sam's wife. Um so I do think a really great thing about fringes is that you make yourself available to the randomness of life. Um so that I know it's so annoying because like a part of me like I've to I'll just say this, and I know this is not fashionable to say, but I've taken jobs where I didn't get paid anything for sort of exposure, you know, like like to do something with somebody that I wanted to work with, and um, you know, I have done plays with people just so I could meet the cousin of the person that was playing the lead who wasn't very good. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, like I know now there's a thing of like you gotta get paid all the time, but like there is an element to uh there have been many times when I've like worked on something for free, and then the third time I worked with that person, I got paid because they got money to make a short film and now they can pay me to do it. Um but like this random collisions of life, I think uh fringes are really good for.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Yeah, I I totally agree. Like, I think I I got lucky because Sam saw my show in fringe, and I kind of I knew Sam because I was working with people who worked with Sam. But again, you know, we've been doing this for a really, really long time. And uh the the important people coming to your show are like these people, you don't know what's gonna happen, you know. So they're all around you. Your community is who is going to help you out, you know, like you are should go to each other's shows and see them and you like rise together. And um, you know, I know like I've I've had opportunities to help people out. Like, I always want to hire people that are my friends that I know will show up and do a great job that won't embarrass me, that won't embarrass themselves, you know. So just by showing up and being cool and like helpful and to everybody else is like that's you know, I think the way that the right connections are made that you can get lucky and um you know, get the things that you are wanting. Um and then that doesn't that's not to say like you can't like if you know a manager, like invite them to your show, you know. If you're proud of it, if you've gotten good feedback, if you're ready, go ahead and try that.

SPEAKER_09 47:29

But oh can I say I I y'all might have different experiences, but I have found that LA reps do not give a shit about theater or fringe or any like it's changing a little bit, but it's true. Yeah, because I had a manager essentially, it led to me dropping her because she was mad that I missed an audition because I had a tech, a full day of tech rehearsal and I couldn't go to this audition. I was like, I have tech, and she was like, I don't care about theater. Um so what I was gonna say was that on a in a in an independent theater way, I don't think there's tons of like rich people walking around being like, I'm gonna, I'm looking for a fringe show to bring to like Orlando fringe this year, you know, you know. Um even like ones that are like, I wanna take a show to Edinburgh, like Edinburgh's the money pit for them. Like, so it's not really there's not I mean, I guess rarely there's somebody that's like, I want to be the one that takes something like flea bag to off Broadway or something like that. But um, but I will say there's parallel to that, there is this sort of like stair steppy like validation thing where like if you can get let's say you can go to like get a reviewer to see a show or you go to a um Edinburgh or whatever and you get like a four-star review in something, then somebody's like, oh, okay, I'll go see it. And then what happened with me is um there's like four different artistic directors around the country that sort of like validated each other, like they were basically like, Oh, you're talking to this person, oh, I'll take a look at your video or whatever, where none of them had really vouched for me yet, but they all sort of vouched for each other's vouching, and and now, like, so now I know these artistic directors that are like, oh, we're you know, we love your work or whatever. But like, I remember having this weird feel it's like when you uh okay in LA, everybody probably knows some celebrities, right? And then you're like, if if you can go, if you go with that your celebrity friend to a party, and then because you're there with your celebrity friend, they're like, oh, you must be important as well. Like the the sort of like social validation that happens in the theater world with artistic directors as well. Um, because I I mean it's probably a practical thing because they can't watch every single thing that they're presented with, right? So they're taking a bit of like, so now that I've done a show at the Huntington Theater in Boston, if I send my video of my next show to like Portland Center Stage, they're gonna be like, oh, okay, he was at hunting, they'll look at the thing and be like, he was at another um in a cover-ass way. I won't be fired for booking this person that was at the Huntington, you know. Um, so it happens in any job, but like that happens in theater too.

SPEAKER_06 50:20

Yeah. I want to name that it's 520. Is it okay if we stay till 545? Does anybody need to leave? Okay, great. And if you need to leave in the audience, we're gonna switch into questions in five minutes. But I want to ask David, you the flip. What about how have you found work? How do you find new creators? What does that look like from the company side? And is there anything that these creators kind of have their ducks in a row? What are these ducks like? Is it a social following? Is it a concept? Is it a little bit of all of it?

SPEAKER_08 50:49

Um, it's a great question. And I think I think that there's there's kind of like two different worlds here a little bit, which is like um independent shows, specifically fringe being the best, both you know, Hollywood Fringe and Edinburgh Fringe being the creme de la creme of just independent creators telling amazing stories of various kinds, and then um your own commercial acting success root in and of itself. And I think that they can be connected and they absolutely mostly cannot be, right? For most people's experiences. The thing that um, and and I won't speak for Sam, but well, I will speak for Sam. I know that he loves Edinburgh and Fringe specifically, and things like this, like Hollywood Fringe, more than anything else in the world, because individual artists and creators are are practicing their art and are um exuding all types of their philosophical and emotional experiences about the world in independent and original ways. Hard stop, right? Like that's why it's fun. And then is that always going to be commercially successful? Uh, I, you know, uh hard to say, right? Um uh what we you know being able to do specials, um, dropout present specials on dropout has been incredibly wonderful for for dropout for Sam and I and everybody involved. Um and and it's still like the long-term growth and success of having a huge amount of independent creators and its own, you know, burgeoning business model, the people that just specifically want that to be seen, whether that's going to be the next big thing. Um, but also it is a huge demonstration of an abundance of talent when you see like just the amazing clown work, the amazing storytelling, the amazing acting chops, comedy chops of the people that are out there. So, I mean, when when we're when we're like hiring and casting for a show, there's a lot of considerations that go into those things. And definitely, you know, um, are they going to bring in their own audience because they have a huge following is definitely a big piece of that for sure. Um, but also sometimes people are just amazingly funny and interesting and we and and or correct for the show that we're casting for. Um, and and and and as I said, it's like it's like these the these two worlds can be connected, but ultimately don't need to be, right? And and it's like what what I've and I what I've heard you both say, which is absolutely true of like your shows, plural, were beloved by Sam and many, many other people um because they were amazing shows and impressive and funny and heartfelt and everything else that garnered more and more um enthusiasm from uh live audiences uh in Edinburgh, elsewhere, et cetera, um, regardless of anything else. Um and that, and that, and that word of mouth, right? That that grows in and of itself as far as the show is actually concerned. Uh and then, hey, do you want to take this character, this setting, and turn it into a television show? Okay, different project, right? It's a project on top of that project. Um, and there's only been a couple of examples of really like the flea bag and the baby reindeer, right? Where that that's been a one-to-one. Um, but all of it is practice. All of it is part of, you know, the process of learning a little bit about yourself as a performer, learning about yourself as a writer, learning about yourself as a producer, learning about, you know, what works and what doesn't work for your own brand or your show's brand or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 54:38

Um so oh, sorry. Just really, really quickly, you just reminded me of something. Well, you were talking about like flea back and baby reindeer and you know, like your TV show and stuff. And I don't believe that either of them had like their pitch for their show ready to go. They made something great and they the things that were meant for them were magnetic to them. So you don't really have to worry about how it's gonna translate necessarily. I mean, you can if that's if that's fun for you, but it's like take care of your show or whatever it is, like make excellent work, and the things that are meant for you will come to you.

SPEAKER_06 55:15

I agree, yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna take some questions from our audience that way we can come in through. Okay, Linnea, and then I'll come up here to the front. Hi, um and say your name, your show, and then I'll my name is Linnea Pramel.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Um, my show was The Trick and the Pearl. I have a question for Chris. Um, I saw I saw you, I think, in 2023. Um, how do you find where do you start your search looking for venues for, say, the Edinburgh?

SPEAKER_09 55:49

For Edinburgh, I'm a little privileged because I've done stuff with Assembly for like 12 years with Baby Wants Candy. So I chose to sort of be loyal to them and uh go to them first. Um I uh this is live streamed, huh? Okay. I'll I'll just say that like in the last year or two, I have thought about like maybe I should go somewhere else because I've had a few experiences uh like last year at the end of the month, I had a run-in with a security guard at the assembly beer gardens that was very like uh sort of race coded in a way that I didn't appreciate. Uh, where they didn't uh I happened to be wearing my husband's assembly badge instead of mine, and this he like snatched it off my neck. And I was just like, I've been I've been in this beer garden for 12 years in a row. Like, I don't have any like leeway or anything. So uh I guess um we'll send this clip to them. Um so I highly recommend if you're thinking about Edinburgh to go to the festival before you produce there. Uh I know it's expensive, but I think it's let it's cheaper than going and picking a venue blind where you go and like, well, this seems to work out, and you get there and they're like, oh, they have no storage for my props. And they and I and uh it's next to a bar with a live band with sound bleed. Um it is if you haven't been to Scotland, it is incomprehensible. None of us could describe what Edinburgh Fringe is like to you. So it doesn't matter how much I told you about this venue versus that venue, you really need to scout it, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:24

And if you want to do a one-to-one with Hollywood Fringe staff, we do one-to-ones after the festival about touring in general, but we also can give you advice about Edinburgh Fringe and connect you to the Edinburgh Fringe Society as well.

SPEAKER_05 57:35

Yeah. Hi everyone. Uh my name's Troy. Uh he him. I don't have a show. My friends have shows. Um, I just wanted to say first off, I'm a huge fan of Dropout. Like really annoying about dropout. Like I make my friends and family watch dropout. That's not the only reason why I'm here, I promise. It's just one of them. Um, but I wanted to ask a lot of like you guys wear a whole lot of hats. I know, Chris, especially like I in the behind the scenes videos, they talk about you writing and like producing and also kind of being in things. Courtney, like your show as well. I was wondering, how did you really get your foot in the door to prove, hey, I can do all of these things? And also, how do you manage wearing so many hats? Like, because you obviously have like your personal lives.

SPEAKER_09 58:19

I'll go first, but I'll just say that in the last three or four years, I have become way more direct about like just emailing people being like, Hey, I would like to do this. Um for example, season two of Parlor Room came around, and um, I was talking to like Demi and other people, and they were like, Oh yeah, I'm going in for Parlour Room. And I play games with Becca all the time who hosts Parlor Room. And I was like, Hey, can I be in this season's parlor room? And she's like, Oh yeah, um, why don't you come in for this one? And it was like, and it was not a um like I think sometimes we'll be like, Oh, if I didn't miss out that email, season two parlor room would have come out, and I'd be like, Oh, they must have hated me in season one. And like, um, I'd I now I make people say no to me more often now. Um instead of I think this is an Asian thing of like I'm gonna be so good that they just no notice me and they asked me to do it without me saying anything. And I I I shouldn't have to promote myself at all. And I just think of in America that doesn't fly.

SPEAKER_04 59:28

I I think I need to be more like that as well. Um, I don't know if that answers your question. I mean, are you asking about wearing as many hats like in turn when you're making your show, like you have to do the marketing or the producing or the what is that what you is that necessary, or what did you not, but also like in general, I think.

SPEAKER_05 59:46

Oh, I I meant that, but also I guess in general, just because I know I feel like people have this preconceived notion that theater people don't do much, but then everyone who's in theater knows we're doing so much all the time. So I guess I just meant in general, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:01

I mean, you just have to do it, right? Like you get your date and you're like, crap, I need a costume, ah, I need a prop. I gotta try this, I gotta get another prop. And you are just doing it. And I personally like am not very tech savvy, but I figure it out, you know, like and you ask for help when you need it. And it does make you uh to be kind of a one-man band, like there's so many advantages to it too, because then you don't have to bother anybody else or have someone else do it wrong. Sometimes you do it wrong, but um, then it's on you. I mean, I I think you just do it and and learn as you go. And yeah, it can be really stressful sometimes. And then, you know, like I I'm thinking about Natalie Palomedis, who's a friend of mine who's like, she's done three amazing solo shows. And the first two, she was like touring with her little suitcase. And, you know, uh, her third show has so many props and so many gags that, you know, but she's at the level now to where she can have some help, you know. Not that she always loves the way somebody else does it because she does it best, you know. And and it's true, but you know, like she has producers now, so you can sort of, you know, expand, you know, uh the but it's but it all starts from having your little suitcase and doing it all yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:22

Yeah, how do you feel about people saying I want to do this forever?

SPEAKER_08 1:01:27

I I I think it's great. I I I I love, I mean, and a couple different answers to this great question. Uh like from from from my perspective as like inside dropout, um we're making so many decisions on a any given day, and some people think that like Sam himself makes all of the decisions, which is not the case. And then we'll feel personally affronted if it was like, I wasn't in this season to make some noise. It's like I didn't even cast it, man. Like there's producers and directors and a whole other bunch of people that are doing the all that work. If we were, if if Sam was or if Sam and I were making all the decisions at the company, we would, we there would be enough time in the day.

SPEAKER_09 1:02:09

Um, let's go to list drout shows and you told me why it wasn't a cast.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but when you hear directly from somebody for a variety of different roles, right? For um a PA gig or to be in a show, or I am really excited and enthusiastic about this and helping out in this endeavor. I want to grow and learn about this and I want to be part of this thing. Put me in, coach. It's like so easy, so easy to say yes. And then sometimes you'll say no. And the no doesn't have to be the end all be all of it'll never be no. It's just like, oh, we already have PAs this time. But great to know most of those times when we've gotten, you know, a casting thing, as Chris is saying, or even just like, I would love to be a camera person, PA sort of thing, as long as you're you know, appropriately like have qualified, like you're, you know, that's an easy enthusiasm is fantastic.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:03

Um, Dave and I both worked on crowd control.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:06

And so uh for crowd control, there's a you know, a long process of figuring out what comics are in. Yeah. And I think there's many times where either they are speaking enthusiastic, like they really want to be on it, which makes a big difference. Yeah, totally. And there's another thing that happens sometimes where of like, oh yeah, we've we've worked with them before, they didn't seem like they loved it that much. Or like, you know, but we've had a lot of like especially comics I saw season one that were like, I really want to like that did break ties, I think. No, not at all.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:39

Yeah. So enthusiasm is great. And go, yeah, and don't be dismayed by a no. A lot oftentimes no's are just for now. I would encourage that. And and to what you were saying, Courtney, like just wearing a bunch of hats, because um professionally, like, you know, there's nothing that motivates you, like um having to uh pay a staff salary, et cetera, like well, you know, running a company is the thing that has always been like, okay, well, we have to keep this thing going. It is happening and making that as formal as possible. Um my advice and in my own like a few handful of personal um projects, it's like the accountability buddy or it's like some whatever it means I found uh this works for me to make it real, right? Not just talking about a thing open-endedly, right? Like, I'm gonna meet with my writing partner every week. This is the date. If we don't make it, like we fucked up, we gotta do it again, or you know, don't go out and you know, spend $300,000 on like a whatever, but having the accountability of making that a real thing and finding enthusiastic people that are great to work with in order to realize that shared vision, I have found great success in that with manifesting an idea into reality.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:00

I totally agree with that. George, you can come on in if you want. Um, but uh we at Hollywood Fringe, when Lois and I first started and we weren't full time, it was like we were just like really believing in this thing and we're like, oh, before we go have this like annual or like this weekly office hours, we're just gonna work together that whole day before. And at the time I was working at another like festival that was like, I would work like 60 hours a week and I would still all day on Wednesday come and be like, Wednesday is my fringe day. And it just took that for 10 years to get here, to be here where we're doing it. And I think that that is like also a little bit of the truth in Los Angeles is that like if you stick around long enough, like they can't ignore you because you've been sustained for so long that eventually press will be like, Well, I guess if they're still doing it 10 years later, 16 years later, it must mean something to someone, even if it doesn't mean something to them. Questions. Yes. Then I'll get you back to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

Hi, I'm Lanny Harms. I'm doing Reservoir Dolls, a solo woman, one woman show about the women of Quentin Tarantino's movies. Um, and I am very interested that like you guys have families. And um I just have a question for any of you guys who if you have any advice for any of those of us who would are interested in doing uh uh Edinburgh Fringe one day, but don't have a stockpile of cash and also Are you interested in building a family? And how do you how do you continue down this path of artistry while going through different seasons of life? And you're not just like a young, rich 20-something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:38

I don't know. I mean, you know, I don't see what I said.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:41

Oh, yeah. Let me take a stab. I'll take a stab at it. I mean, I I the last time I was at Edinburgh Fringe, I was not married and I didn't have a baby. I really wanted both of those things so bad. But that was that was not my season, you know? And then and so I put a I did put a lot of money and work into the show, and I just, it was a goal. I made it happen. And then those other things that I wanted fell into place. And now it is much harder to do things, you know. Um, I will say that I this is just a little, you know, I I did put a lot of money producing my V Vanessa 5000 show, but with like the dropout special and the family, the paid family leave I got from having like a nice quarter, I was able to pay back my debt. You know, so it was one of those like magical things. I was like, oh amazing, you know. Um, but you know, it's it's all it's all risk. Um, you know, it's it's it's like very personal, you know, like where you put your money and your time. Um so I but I will say it's possible. I know a lot of people that have kids that have brought their kids to fringe and like they make it happen. And that's something that I would love to do one day. It's not gonna happen this year, probably next year, but I, you know, you see the examples of people that are doing it and you can can learn from from them. Um you know, but I but I think part of uh, you know, I knew that I wanted a family like above everything, above everything. And at a certain point I did pivot and I was like, I actually I love this, but I don't care as much. And I focused for the past couple of years on my family and my kid, and it's been the best. And now I'm doing my show again kind of for fun and I'm making a little bit of money, and that's great, but it is, I think, just knowing that there are seasons, you know. Um, and that's okay. Like for me, I found that the times where I'm like not making something, those like fallow seasons are actually so rich, and that's important, you know. Like I have never had this like linear drive. Like, and the more trust you have that those times where you don't feel productive, oh, actually that was so productive, you know, like not in the way that you would think, but I was wrestling with something that became important later, like just knowing that that's okay and you don't know how it's all gonna work out. Did that answer your question a little bit? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:18

I don't have kids. I have a garage full of board games. Uh it's about the same amount of money. I actually have a question for David is do you have a perspective? Because David is married to a person that is so capable of children plus parallel business track. Uh, maybe more than anybody I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:43

Yeah. Well, yeah. Um uh my wife Becca Scott is uh the host of um a Parlor Room on Dropout, and she runs her own uh YouTube channel, uh Good Time Society. Uh, and she's on maternity leave right now for her own small but independent company. I think that both of us have been fortunate in timing and other things to like have had stable company positions at the time when we were um we were having kids. Um, you know, it's I I I would say that I mean that we we've been fortunate in that timing, but there was and always will be sacrifice and prioritization of like, as you said so well, like seasons, like what comes now? Um, what's important right now? And I think like we were both full blown in our um uh professional careers um and and and got lucky timing-wise around COVID because Becca was the only person that was able to be making independent stuff online, stuck in our house um around COVID, and so was able to make a b business around that, and and that's right around when dropout was taking off for me. But we were like, you know, working, you know, 12-hour days for a few years to make that happen and kind of sacrificed some things that we had to reconcile with our relationship before we could think about having kids. Um, but and so we we we but it came in seasons. Um, and I think I think that all things are possible, but it's like what comes now, and just being brutally honest with yourself about what the costs are, both financially and your own time and resources and energy as to what you can give within a certain period of time. Um, you know, I've I've done a couple independent projects of my own, and it's like, you know, a short film. I was like, I'm gonna spend this amount of money. Like I I I'm never gonna get that back. This is a passion project that I'm doing with my very close friend for this specific reason, and I'm not, it's like we're not, you know, it's like a bougie vacation, or I'm gonna make this passion project or make the passion project, right? Like, and I need to get that done before we have a kid because then it's never gonna happen, or it won't happen for three years, right? Or something when we can manage that whole thing. But I think just you know, phases and and seasons and and and priority.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:18

Our last question here.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:21

Hi, I'm TJ. My show is called Dating Advice for Useless Queers or DeFuck. Um my question is how do you suggest or do you have any pro tips for crafting the perfect follow-up? This is my first fringe, and I've been really grateful to receive so much great feedback from people I really admire. And so if I am not in a place where I can assert myself and say, hey, I would like to do this with you and for you because we just don't have the rapport yet, is there a perfect email to reach out and say, hi, I would really love to keep getting your feedback and collaboration or production that doesn't feel like harassment?

SPEAKER_09 1:12:57

I I mean, I kind of think it should be like one degree back from harassment. Um, through some of the dropout people, I was introduced to uh an email program that I uh I'll give you my affiliate code. No, it's this email program that like you can do a thing that says like, remind me about this in three days. And I'll do that a lot of times with people. Like, I I'll say, like, I'm gonna email them again in seven days. And uh I'm sure there's a lot of different ways to do this kind of thing. I don't think there's a perfect message because it's different for different people. There are some people that like I'm pretty casual with my follow-ups, and there are some people that that's too casual for, and then there's if sometimes you craft a really like, hello, sir, I met you at the whatever, and they're like, What are you doing? Just like text me or whatever. Um, I I do think that from the perspective of you being the person reaching out, I think we m over-magnify how important the tone and all that stuff is. A person receiving it a lot of times just like if they if they gloss over it and don't respond to you, to them it's like nothing. It's just like an email, an annoying email in their inbox, they don't get back to. From your perspective, you're like, I poured my heart and soul into this project, and they said they were gonna watch my video, and I checked the tr the stats on the YouTube unlisted video, and no one's watched it yet. And meanwhile, that person has just like got an inbox full of other things going on. So I think what I'm I'm saying that to so that you can release yourself from it's gotta be the perfect email. I think sometimes this is just a quantity over quality thing of just like like okay, let's say they let's say they hate you and they don't want to respond to you, right? Then you sending three emails over six weeks won't annoy them anymore. You know? Like you're not gonna get blacklisted in Hollywood for like you, there's no way you could be the most persistent, annoying person in Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:59

As somebody who as somebody who gets these emails, I disagree. You can do too much, and I think it's about like you said, seven days is very appropriate. Yeah, yeah. If it's eight hours later, I'm like, the fuck? Uh I think it's there's balance uh because we do actually have a problem with in the indie scene of people being a little bit like, I am the one. And it's like, actually, there's 500 shows at Hollywood French, there's 4,000 at Edinburgh. There, there is some level where you need to make sure that that person they might not be reaching back out to you because it might not be the time. And you want to make sure that when it is the time, they're not like, wow, that person was really, really overly persistent and aggressive.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:44

I think the fact that you asked this question means you're not that person. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:48

I'm a Filipino if that says anything.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Offer them a trip to Jolly Bee. I'll go.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:58

I always, I mean, uh yeah, I think that like, yeah, more than once a week is don't do that. And then I I'll I mean then maybe this is a personal thing too. I think the length of an email, if it's a really long email, it's so much easier just to disregard it completely. Um versus like three paragraphs tops, right? Like, oh, this person, I remember them, and I'm done with the email reading. And I can either respond or or like you know, a quick little thing. You know, a paragraph is like I it's so much easier for me to disregard. But I but I think a follow-up is great. And I think it but making it easy to like fun, enthusiastic. Here's a link where you can find my thing that I do, and this is why I want to do the thing. Oh, cool, I'll click on a link. Sick. Or but if it's if it's three attachments after you know a life story, then I'm like, and I can't don't I don't have time for this.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:55

As soon as I see that they don't understand what Hollywood French is in the first three sentences, it's very overwhelming. And so I think it's also about like knowing who your audience is. Like, we'll go to an international festival and be scouting for a very specific international thing. They'll be like, you could program everything. And I'm like, we don't. Uh and it's literally where you found my email, right? Under it, it says what I do, you know? And I think that doing that little bit of research and telling them why you matter to them and why you fit within their actual programming. So for instance, if I was pitching at a dropout, I'd be like, my show most reflects X that I really enjoy from your platform. And I think it's really interesting. Or if like finding those touch points where that person sees you as uh a person who's done the work.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:40

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:40

It makes it so much easier for somebody to want to read and respond to your email than if you send them your press release.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:46

Yeah, absolutely. Personalized. So like we I remember getting this is back when we were college humor, but we got like some very eager PA or something like that, or intern, um, called us funnier die in the email. And it's like, have you even, or or even said, My favorite college humor video is this one that's a funnier die one. It's like you obviously have it. Yeah, yeah, it's the landlord. It was like, come on, man.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:11

And I think that, but it's so important because then it like that person messed up, and I bet you they won't again, you know? Like and it doesn't mean that that person sucks, it just means that they're they were overwhelmed and they weren't able to do it at that moment. But I guess my they didn't get through.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:25

My point though is that if you got an email from that person now, you wouldn't be like, oh, this is the person that forgot that confused us for free.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:34

I just disregard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but following up is good. But but and and but I won't always reply, just but again, like a a no reply doesn't mean I don't like you or you're anything. It's just like, oh, maybe there's there's just too many in bones in the inbox.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:52

And you can always follow up again. Not in the same week.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:56

Thank you all so much, and thank you to our amazing panelists. Uh this was the beginning of a very fruitful conversation that I hope that you all can continue. Remember that you can always talk to us at Hollywood Fringe after your run about like where in the fall we have like meetings where you can book one-to-one about your touring and your ideas. Um, we're a resource for you, but also these wonderful folks gave us such a like peek into what's what's ahead. So thank you all for doing that.

unknown 1:19:24

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:28

Okay. Bye live stream.

SPEAKER_10 1:19:35

That's fun. That's a funny.