Inclusive Recruitment - Removing Barriers and Bias

In this episode of The Inclusive Edge: The Power of Diversity I discuss Inclusive Recruitment with guest Renuka Gundula Renu@talentgrader.com Founder and Director at Talent Grader www.talentgrader.com.  

We give practical tips and real-life examples on how to remove bias and make recruitment processes fairer and more inviting for diverse talent.

Key Topics:

• Inclusive Job Descriptions: How using inclusive language and focusing on essential skills in job descriptions can open doors for everyone.
• Intentional Branding: How to showcase your organisations commitment to diversity and why it is important to attract a wider range of candidates.
• Positive Action: Why encouraging applications from under represented groups, including guaranteed interviews and targeted community outreach, can bring in a wider talent pool.
• Fair Interview Panels: The importance of trained, diverse interview panels to create a more consistent and fair interview process.
• Creative Selection Methods:  Using alternative assessments beyond traditional interviews and making adjustments to ensure every candidate’s strengths shine.

Listen in for a fresh perspective on inclusive recruitment and take the first step toward a more dynamic, equitable workplace!

If you would like to be a guest on the show reach out to :
contact@andreajaneconsultancy 

Transcript

Andrea Derbyshire (00:05)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Inclusive Edge, the Power of Diversity podcast. The podcast dedicated to helping leaders and HR professionals create fair, diverse, inclusive and dynamic workplaces where everyone can thrive. Each episode we explore practical strategies for tackling common workplace equality challenges and issues and helping you to build an inclusive culture. We'll talk through real life examples, actionable tips that you can go away and implement and insights.

The inclusive edge provides you with the tools you need to harness the power of diversity and drive meaningful change. Join us as we learn how to unlock the full potential of your team and create a workplace where every voice is heard. Tune in and gain the edge you need to make inclusion a reality. I'm Andrea Derbyshire and today we're going to explore a topic that's close to both my heart and my guests' heart. Inclusive recruitment, removing barriers and bias.

How can we remove barriers and bias from our recruitment and selection processes in order to make workplaces more equitable and diverse? Joining me today is Renuka Gundula from TalentGrader, who like me has got a lot of experience in equality, inclusion and recruitment, and will be having a relaxed informal conversation about the challenges that we've both seen and experienced in different elements and parts of the recruitment and selection process.

and talking through solutions that really work, that are impactful. It's great to have you here. Can you tell listeners a little bit about yourself and your background, please?

Renuka (01:42)
Sure, thanks Andrea. It's great to be here. And my name is Renuka Gundala. I'm a founder and director of a business called TalentGrader. And I work with purpose-driven organizations in the not-for-profit and B-corp certified organizations. And my core service is offering recruitment executive search services.

to these organizations and I also offer recruitment training, process improvement and talent assessment as part of my executive search offering.

Andrea Derbyshire (02:16)
Excellent, thank you. And we'll put a link to to Renu's organisation in the podcast show notes if you're interested in finding out a little bit more about what they do. So let's start with something that's quite basic but really, really important, the job description and person specification, because often that's where unconscious bias can start creeping into the process. Isn't that right?

Renuka (02:41)
Absolutely. Job description is one of the most important document, if not the most important document, isn't it? And it's a document where it can carry so many biases. And the reason it happens, as we know, is as recruiters and hiring managers, we often have a picture of a person that could do a job we are recruiting for. And that kind of

leads us down a path where we are thinking, this person should have a degree, number of years of experience, five years of experience, for example, and all these things. Because we have this fixed mindset about what this person should look like or bring with them in terms of their skills and experience, we designed something that narrows down the talent pool.

Yeah. And I also want to, yeah, sorry, gone. I just wanted to say, actually, I learned about a evidence-based technique. It's called Space to Mind model of mindful inclusion by culture consulting. It's an organization based in Australia. And they talk about this model, which allows us to basically slow down.

Andrea Derbyshire (03:42)
Carry on.

Renuka (04:07)
The fastest ways to recruit efficiently is to slow down. And that's the moral of this six evidence-based strategies that they talk about. And the acronym is called SPACE2 with the double E in the end. actually, as we go through different aspects of barriers, I can tell you a little bit more about that.

Andrea Derbyshire (04:31)
Yeah, that's really interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I think you're right as well because there's lots of evidence that shows that when we're rushing or when we're stressed, that's when unconscious bias can have more of an impact on our decision making processes. Something else that we need to look at in the job description and person specification is about inclusive language and making sure that we avoid any bias language and gendered language. Things like if we say competitive or driven, can inadvertently

it can discourage some applicants, particularly women. So we need to try to make sure that we use neutral, inclusive terms that everyone can relate to. And there are some AI tools that can actually help you with that. And they can scan through job descriptions and identify any bias language and make suggestions for neutral alternatives. I think that's a great step forward, trying to be more efficient and effective in screening job description and person spec content for any potential barriers.

Renuka (05:34)
I agree with you, actually. In terms of the tools that you recommended, often when we are thinking about the language that we want to use in a job description, we are focused more on what we think could work for us. So we recruit people like us. So we are basically thinking about a language that we know and that sounds right to us. But we don't often think about what do

Andrea Derbyshire (05:50)
Yeah.

Renuka (06:02)
our audience who are our candidates want to know about the job and what terminology is right for them they prefer to use. And is there any wording that puts us off from applying for the job like the words that you mentioned using words like competitive, using leading a team quite a lot. So

Andrea Derbyshire (06:16)
Yeah.

Uh-huh.

Renuka (06:28)
The more neutral language is more about supportive and nurturing language that often is kind of termed as female coded wording that works better for both male and female candidate and any other gender that I mean, candidates, there's research available that suggests that, you know, typically male coded words, typically female coded words. But if a hiring manager used more

female coded words have achieved a good balance using AI tools, that advert has generated more candidates who have the qualifications and the experience to do the job.

Andrea Derbyshire (07:02)
Yeah.

Yeah and what about qualifications and experience sometimes is unnecessary elements included that can exclude people.

Renuka (07:22)
absolutely. I mean, the job description sometimes can be so unrealistic, demanding for so many skills and experience. it's sometimes a page and a half. And when we look at all the skills and experience, are we actually going to have time to assess all those skills and experience we've listed? And quite often in my training, I share this technique, which I often use. Here's two questions. The mindful

model of inclusion that I've made reference to, is all about asking ourselves and challenging the norms. So the questions that I share in hiring manager training is to ask ourselves, how critical is this skill and experience to succeed in a role? And if it is critical, important or less important?

Andrea Derbyshire (07:56)
Yes.

Renuka (08:19)
think about it in that way, is it very critical to succeed? Then that could come under your essential criteria. If it is not critical, it's not that important, then it should come off the job description or the person specification. And the second question.

Andrea Derbyshire (08:36)
I agree with that. Some people, they do have essential and desirable criteria in the person's spec, but the desirable criteria, they can deter people from applying for the job. And I advocate for really just including what is the essential criteria that you need to do the job to attract the most diverse range of applicants.

Renuka (08:52)
Absolutely.

I agree with you. Sometimes the desirable criteria can be useful if you have lots and lots of applications. But the question is, that really important for you to recruit the right person for the role? And the second question I ask is, once we've established, you know, what is this critical skills and experiences to think about how often does this person need to call upon this skill to do the job effectively? And if it is always

Andrea Derbyshire (09:13)
Yeah.

Renuka (09:29)
frequently, sometimes never, based on that, what your answer is, you can decide whether it should actually be again in the essential criteria, because sometimes you think that actually project management skills are really important for this job, but how often are they going to use that skill to do the job will help you to establish whether that should actually be in the essential criteria.

Andrea Derbyshire (09:47)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's really sound advice because we often see huge job descriptions and person specs with masses and lists of criteria that applicants, they suggest that applicants need to be able to do the job and as you say, it's not realistic and it's not essential.

Okay, so it's not just about the job description though, it's that the whole recruitment branding needs to be intentionally inclusive and I've seen how many organisations actively promote their commitment to diversity and that results in them being able to attract more diverse candidates. What are your thoughts on that?

Renuka (10:30)
Actually, I'm going to share with you a interesting research available from Greenhouse. They've done some research on candidate experience in 2022, which suggests that 86 % candidates look at what employers have been doing in terms of DEI, what their efforts are before making a job application. So this goes to show.

It's just not to take box exercise. It's not just putting a statement at the end of the adverse, say that an employer is really committed to recruiting diversely. But like you said, it's beyond the job description. They need to talk about what they have done internally to retain talent.

Andrea Derbyshire (11:12)
Yeah.

Yeah, and has to be meaningful, doesn't it? And implemented in practice. Thank you for sharing that research. That's really insightful. I've also seen research that shows that the younger generations, that they're even more keen. They wouldn't apply basically for a job if they didn't find that that organization was active and committed and demonstrating that support for equality, diversity and inclusion. So it's really important.

Renuka (11:21)
Absolutely.

Andrea Derbyshire (11:47)
for organizations to consider.

Renuka (11:50)
I think so. We do need to think about speaking beyond job descriptions and be genuine about our commitment.

Andrea Derbyshire (11:59)
Yeah and in your experience what's the best way for organisations to do that to share those messages through the recruitment and selection process?

Renuka (12:09)
I think job description wise, it's a good starting point, thinking about when we are designing the job description, thinking about who are we excluding inadvertently when we are thinking about the person specifications, skills and experience, and also talking about the flexibility, hybrid working arrangements.

and being absolutely clear what they have done internally in terms of supporting their diversity efforts, retaining diverse staff. And it also shows in no doubt we'll be kind of touching on this is, you know, in terms of the interview panel as well, having a diverse interview panel, thinking about the selection process, being very thoughtful and considerate, thinking about the candidate experience and how we support.

Andrea Derbyshire (12:51)
Yes.

Renuka (13:00)
different individuals and being aware of cultural differences and cultural sensitivity. I think that's really important. And it kind of shows we have to show throughout the recruitment process, not just in a document.

Andrea Derbyshire (13:07)
Yeah.

I agree. So sharing information about how you support people with different protected characteristics in the workplace about staff networks and their achievements and activities and having diverse images on the website. All of those small nudges can incrementally make a real difference. I think it goes for the recruitment process too, so making sure that your candidates know what to expect at every stage of the process. So clearly laying out

each step of the process, the terms of the role and all of that is really important. So thinking about belonging and people feeling welcome, let's talk a little bit about how we can actively encourage applications from underrepresented groups and positive action. What do you think about strategies like

offering guaranteed interviews for candidates who meet the essential criteria. I know historically a lot of organisations have just done this through disability confident but some more forward-thinking organisations now are offering guaranteed interviews for other underrepresented groups like people with particular ethnic backgrounds or females if they're underrepresented. What's your view on that?

Renuka (14:33)
I think it genuinely shows commitment from the organizations to have good representation from different backgrounds. Whilst I say that, we also need to be aware of it's important to provide that training to because quite often HR is not involved in any in every interview.

and shouldn't be also, you know, it's the work training that organization provides to hiring managers to understand what positive action is and what positive discrimination is quite important. I think it's there's just a fine line. So it's for us to understand that whenever we make initiatives like this, embark on the journey where we are promoting initiatives like this, how are we making sure that we are not discriminating

other candidates or excluding other candidates. That's also equally important. I fully support initiatives like this, but at the same time, I think it's the training awareness. If that's made available internally, these sort of initiatives will work really well.

Andrea Derbyshire (15:44)
Yeah, I agree it has to be really clearly communicated and it needs to be evidence-based for people to be on board with those initiatives. Can you share any examples of positive action initiatives that you've been involved in that have worked well in any organizations that you've supported at all?

Renuka (16:03)
Certainly, yeah, one organisation I supported, they were a disability, they signed up to the Disability Confident Commitment and they were on level two. And it wasn't just about talking about the offering interview to the candidates who met the essential criteria, but also thinking about

Andrea Derbyshire (16:14)
Yes.

Renuka (16:29)
providing many opportunities when candidates have declared that they might need some adjustments and accommodations, providing many opportunities throughout the recruitment process. How can recruiting managers best support those individuals to showcase their talent through interview or any other assessments that they use, and also talking about what they have done internally.

to support individuals who may have had a disability. that is kind of done through the job descriptions or videos and showcasing the culture in the organization. So that when we did the recruitment branding exercise with a client, that's the work that I have done to kind of talk about, communicate that really well to the candidates so they are encouraged to apply.

and they see that they could have a sense of belonging working in that organization.

Andrea Derbyshire (17:26)
Yeah, I think that works really important because it's a skill in itself, job applications, navigating how to complete the application and how to evidence that you meet each other criteria in the person's specification. So a lot of larger organisations do invest in supporting applicants at pre-recruitment stage with interview skills and how to complete the application forms, etc.

But I think all of this, it's about making people feel supported and invited to apply to work in the organisation right from the start and conveying the message that you really value diverse perspectives and that you want to help people to navigate the process. Should we move on and talk a little bit about the interview stage? Because that's where things can also go drastically wrong if we're not careful. So we've mentioned about. Yeah.

Renuka (18:20)
Yeah, I was just going to say Andrea about the

application form you mentioned. I've got a really interesting piece of research that I looked at and I thought you may want to see this, hear this as well. It's about the application forms. If the application form takes longer than 15 minutes, 80 % of the applicants decide not to apply.

Andrea Derbyshire (18:41)
Yes.

wow. Yeah, that-

Renuka (18:51)
Yeah, so it's also the kind of

thinking about the candidate experience as well, you know, sometimes organizations, you know, we are talking a lot about skills based assessment and ditching CVs. So when we are thinking about a new application form application processes, think about actually what could work and this this I thought this was really interesting piece of research to make us think about, you know, if it is longer than 15 minutes, how can we

Andrea Derbyshire (19:03)
Yeah, yeah.

Renuka (19:18)
make adjustments and accommodations, streamline the process.

Andrea Derbyshire (19:18)
Yeah,

I think that's really important because you could just lose interested candidates so easily if the process is convoluted and bureaucratic. We want to make it as sufficient and as simple as possible for applicants to apply and express an interest in roles. That's really interesting. Thank you for sharing that with the listeners.

Okay, so we've talked a little bit about the importance of having interview panels that are trained and diverse, haven't we? Is there anything you want to say around that for the listeners?

Renuka (19:57)
In terms of the interview process itself.

Andrea Derbyshire (20:00)
about panels being diverse and being trained. We have touched on it a little bit.

Renuka (20:06)
Yes,

in my view, I believe that the makeup of the interview panel gives a glimpse of culture of the organization and how the selection process runs gives real insight into a job. That's how I see it.

And our listeners will also agree that when we have a diverse interview panel, we are actually sending a message that we do support diversity in the organization. That's one of the ways we can talk. The organization shouts out loud that organization supports diversity. And interview training, diverse interview panels, and using different assessments, I feel, are

Andrea Derbyshire (20:41)
Yeah.

Renuka (20:59)
really good foundations for a reliable recruitment process, because the recruitment is a or interview process is very biased. There's a lot of research and evidence available, which suggests that actually, actually, there's a again, an interesting piece of research, which I often quote in my training is a meta analysis published in the psychological bulletin concluded that a typical employment interview.

leads to the right higher only 57 % of the time.

Andrea Derbyshire (21:28)
Yep.

Yeah, even when I did my CIPJ, think about 23 years ago, the research and evidence then was showing that recruitment was the less, recruitment interviews were the less reliable form of selection process out of all of the different methodologies, but most organizations still do rely on interviews, even though there's, you know,

so much bias that can come into play in interviews. I think organisations forget as well that it's a two-way process. It's also the candidate deciding whether they want to work in an organisation like yours, whether they feel that the culture and that there's a welcome and sense of belonging for them is two-way rather than just the organisation deciding whether they want to recruit that person.

Renuka (22:24)
As said, we often forget that because as recruiters and employers, kind of speaking from my own viewpoint in terms of working with organizations, employers believe that they have the power, but it's not, and forget that it's a two-way process. It's quite important to remember that candidates have a say in this. And that's what we are seeing at the moment, isn't it?

Andrea Derbyshire (22:24)
and

Yeah, a small tip that I've heard of that is believed to work well is that if panels, before they interview, if they discuss any potential bias, that is evidence to reduce the potential of bias influencing selection decisions. That's something that I think has been trialed in the NHS.

Renuka (23:09)
I agree with you. I was just going to add, sorry, I interrupted you there. I was just going to add to say that, you know, the mindful model of inclusion, which I was talking about earlier, is also kind of supporting that where the more aware we are about our biases and the permission we give to others to challenge our biases because

Andrea Derbyshire (23:16)
Come on. No, it's fine. on.

Renuka (23:38)
unconscious biases are invisible. We can't see it, but other people can see it in us. So by giving other people permission to challenge our thinking, we'll lead to an effective recruitment decision.

Andrea Derbyshire (23:55)
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. We've talked a little bit about the interviews not being the most valid form of selection. Can we talk a little bit now about innovation in selection processes? Because we know that traditional interviews, don't always show a candidate's full potential, and that's particularly relevant for neurodiverse and disabled candidates. What do you think organizations can do differently in that respect?

Renuka (24:25)
think there isn't like a standard advice for all the roles, but I think what's important is for hiring managers to look at what they are assessing and thinking about, is this the best way, is interview the best way to assess their skill? For example, if somebody, as an example, needs to have...

a higher standard of written communication skills is interview a better way to assess? Obviously not. But what else can they do? Can they give a practical assessment? And if they give practical assessment, we need to be thinking about talent from other backgrounds. Are we excluding anyone by creating a assessment that will help us to assess good written communication skills?

But are we excluding anyone? Thinking about all these questions will allow us to be as inclusive as we can be because, you know, no selection process, in my opinion, is 100 % perfect. And research also suggests that. Every selection process has some disadvantages. example, as you said, know, for interviews, candidates who consider themselves

Andrea Derbyshire (25:46)
Yeah.

Renuka (25:50)
neurodivergent may not thrive well in interviews. But if you look at a written practical exercise, if you've designed one and you're expecting a candidate from a global majority to take that assessment and English is not their first language, they might not be able to thrive in that exercise. So he's kind of thinking about the balance. What is essential? Because we are thinking about who has the...

who is the right candidate for the job. And if written communications is absolutely essential, if we can go back to our person specification when we are talking about essential skills and experience, and if you've decided that written communication is really important, then you do have to decide on who does well in that and how it is important to the role. So I would say it's using different...

assessments, combination of assessment without making the process too lengthy and cumbersome, thinking about candidate and what accommodations and adjustments we need to offer to candidates, for example, interview questions, sharing interview questions, or giving extra time, or using inclusive language, even in terms of the interviews itself, and just finding out without making any assumptions about what accommodations we need to make to candidates.

What do they need? Ask that question and encourage them to answer that because a lot of the times, even if you put it in an interview, invite email, candidates don't come back and tell you what adjustments they need because they are worried that they may be, it may go against them in the interview process.

Andrea Derbyshire (27:32)
Yeah, I think there are some things that we can do to try and make the process as accessible as possible. So things like providing interview questions in advice in advance. there any other tips that you could share?

Renuka (27:48)
I think talking about when we often think about including other assessments to support the interview process, we don't communicate clearly, as the recruiters or employers don't always tell candidates why we think the assessment is relevant to the interview process. What are we trying to assess through this assessment and how long is the

Andrea Derbyshire (28:12)
Yeah.

Renuka (28:18)
assessment going to be and in terms of its accessibility, what options are available and how many questions, what format of the answers, is it open question, multiple choice and things like that. As much information as you can share about the assessments will help candidates who identiify themselves to be neurodivergent or have any disability to think about.

Andrea Derbyshire (28:25)
See ya.

Renuka (28:46)
Okay, I know enough about this assessment and what do I need to give it a best shot? And they then will be in a better position to hopefully come and tell you what adjustments they need.

Andrea Derbyshire (28:52)
Yeah.

Yeah and that's something that organisations should be able to implement pretty easily so it's just about communicating and sharing more information around what the assessments will entail so that candidates feel fully briefed and informed and ready to prepare for the selection process. I think that's really helpful, thank you for sharing that. Are there any key final points that you'd like to leave our listeners with today?

Renuka (29:29)
I think I would say it's actively questioning ourselves. I know I've said that already earlier when we talked about designing the job description, actively questioning ourselves. It's challenging the norms. Are we excluding any talent when we are writing job description, writing design interview questions? There's active questioning and working with collaboratively

with other interview panel members, because sometimes, you know, in bigger organizations where they may have implemented things like diversity champions, thinking about how power is showing up, how our power as seniority is showing up in interview selection decisions. How are we working with other interview panels?

Are we giving them enough voice and are their decisions swayed by somebody who is senior in the room in the interview panel? So these active questioning in every stage of the recruitment process will help us to be as inclusive as we can be and we should be to encourage diversity in any equity in recruitment process.

Andrea Derbyshire (30:47)
Absolutely, thank you for sharing that. think they're really great points and organisations need to be thinking outside of the box and challenging their traditional recruitment and selection processes to do something different. So that's it for today's episode. I hope you found our conversation on inclusive recruitment as insightful as I did. At the end of the day, it's all about creating recruitment processes that are fair, open and allow equity of opportunity.

to support recruiting and appointing diverse talent. Thank you for joining me today, Reynu. I really appreciated your input and insights and I'm sure the listeners have too. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. And as always, if you've got feedback, questions, or there's a topic you'd like for us to explore on a future episode, or you'd like to join me as a guest, drop me a message. Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Edge, the power of diversity.

I'm your host Andrea Derbyshire and I look forward to continuing this journey with you. Until next time, stay committed to inclusion, stay on the inclusive edge and keep driving positive change in your workplaces. Thank you for listening.

Renuka (32:00)
Thank you, Andrea.