Scrupilosity? Depression? and the Lord: Alan Casper Powerful Testimony Journey

Alan Casper shares his journey of battling religious scrupulosity, a form of OCD where he obsessively worries about his spiritual worthiness, leading to intense anxiety. He discusses moments in his life where this condition profoundly impacted him, including experiences at the MTC and during a difficult period in 2012-2013. Alan recounts his struggles with feelings of unworthiness and relentless anxiety, which led to significant weight loss and emotional trauma. He eventually sought medical help, discovering the therapeutic benefits of medication and the importance of seeing a psychiatrist. Alan emphasizes the role faith played in his recovery, detailing how the teachings of Jesus Christ and the support from his religious community helped him through his darkest moments. He concludes by advocating for a holistic approach to treatment that includes both spiritual faith and modern medical practices.

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Transcript

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Alan, where did your anxiety really begin to show up in your life? I have what's called religious scrupulosity, which is a form of ocd whereas I if I don't feel like my status with my heavenly father is perfect, then I, I feel tremendous anxiety where I feel like I have to confess the same sins over and over. I feel like I, even little mistakes, I feel like that I've, I've done things that have destroyed that relationship with my father in heaven and I, and the OCD comes on because of it, it attacks the very thing that I hold the most precious. And so, little by little in my life, little things had happened. like, for example, before I went in the MTC when I was receiving my endowment for the first time. I had a, had a, interview with my state president receiving my temple recommend. And he said, is there anything in your past that should have been resolved with priest authority? It has not been. And I broke down and he just sat there and listened to me and I told him how working at subway, I had snitched a piece of cheese, working there. And I thought I wasn't going to go to the temple. I thought for sure it wasn't going to be worthy to go on a mission and, and So my, the anxiety comes because of, of feelings of, of despair that associate with, with sin, and with. What I perceived to be sin And then when I was in the MTC before I went in the MTC my girlfriend Came over. I was already set apart as a missionary and she gave me a big old hug And I guess before I got in the truck to come to Utah to go to the MTC C and MTC, they, they really hammered you and tell you that if you're not worthy to be here, make sure you get it confessed, get things taken care of. And they, they hammered that the first few days in the MTC and I thought for sure they were talking to me. So I sat down with my branch president and. And just told him, I mean, I was bawling. I couldn't stop crying. He just sat there quiet and listened and, and when I finally was able to talk, I told him that my girlfriend kissed me before I got in the truck to come to the MTC and he said, what else happened? And I said, that's what happened. And he just said, Elder Casper, you're going to be okay. But in my mind, I was going home from the MTC. I was, I was devastated and Anyway, so it really hit me, um, in November of 2012. In November 2012, I had looked at something that I considered to be pornography, even though it wasn't. And so I, I, I saw this picture and I thought, oh no, oh no, that's pornography. And, I talked to my wife and she said, you're okay. It's no big deal. It's whatever. anyways, my son had a, had a football tournament that weekend and I went down there and I was blitzing on anxiety, but I didn't know what it was. And I thought it was the devil attacking me because I'd done something wrong. And the anxiety was so extreme, right? My palms were sweating. My back was cramping. My throat was tightening up. I couldn't breathe. And, I got a blessing from my state president, telling him that I thought the devil was attacking me and he gave me a blessing and it didn't go away and it didn't go away. I went and talked to my bishop, told him, I said, I feel like I looked at pornography. He goes, he goes, you're doing okay. It's not pornography. And anyways, I went down a spiraling dark, um, Horrific nightmare for nine months where it started in November of 2012 and it didn't end until about August 1st, 2013, where I couldn't sleep. I couldn't, I couldn't eat. I'd lost, I lost 50 pounds. I was emaciated. I was trying to teach seminary and going in there and it was just constant, even though I let the sin go or what I perceived to be sin, let it go. And, the, it sent me into a spiral of, of, of chaos. That was absolutely horrific. The only way I can describe it is, walking on a path up in the mountains and all of a sudden there's a mountain lion in front of you and the fear that you would feel like, Oh my goodness, nowhere to run. I have no way to get away from it. I felt that constant fear for nine months where I would come home from seminary, I would cry my eyes out. My wife knew what was going on and, and. And anyways, I finally figured out it was anxiety and tried to get on the right medication and then the medication I tried over and over and over different medications and it just didn't work and didn't work. So, finally in August 1st, 2013, the bell was lifted. It felt like the darkness was lifted off of me and the fear left. And, I happily take medication every day to keep that monster away from me. Let's back up. I mean, this is so real. we're religious teachers we teach Jesus Christ all the time and to avoid sin and things like that And so this is easy to get wrapped up in And I believe I've been down this road a little bit I don't not not to the level you have but I know I've I've I've Definitely dealt with religious group a lot of see I'm pretty sure I've never been diagnosed or anything like that. But so What helped you to, was it a therapist or something or what helped you to start dial this down to where, because it sounds like you're, you're, you know, some of your leaders, religious leaders were like, you're fine, you're fine, but that wasn't really helping. So what was it that got you to where this is like anxiety? I've been, uh, scriptures, on my phone. And seeking help to figure out why I was feeling this way because really that's what I thought it was. I was being attacked by the adversary. And And I fell asleep reading my scriptures and my thumb must have hit the screen and highlighted the word anxiety in the book of Jacob. That Jacob, we, we were pretty much think that he had anxiety as well, that he suffered with anxiety. A lot of the things he said that, um, lead us to that. And he uses the word quite a bit, but I hit that and also I looked at him like, is this anxiety? Then I went to the doctor and, and described what I was feeling. He says, yeah, let's get you on a, on a medication. And I thought, medication? I, do I need medication for this? And, and, uh, he explained to me how it works, how the medication, um, blocks the serotonin for reuptaking and keeps it so it goes down into the proper slot so it keeps the anxiety away. And, um, yeah, it was that. And there was also a therapist that I went and met with. A good, sweet sister that, that helped me understand that it was anxiety as well. Well, the thing is, is that it prohibited me from feeling the spirit and I didn't realize that until it was over. But I, I, uh, I took a week off of work. I was throwing up. I, I, I could not hold food down. I was, I was, uh. It was awful. And I, I got up in the morning and I thought to myself, I read enough scripture, this feeling will go away. So I, I, I went downstairs and I opened up to 3rd Nephi. I remember it was in 3rd Nephi, about chapter 15. And I was reading and I felt nothing. And it felt darker. And, I prayed that it would go away and I knew that Heavenly Father could make it go away and after months and months and months of suffering, I finally yelled in prayer. I just yelled. I knew He could take this away and He wouldn't and I felt horrible that I yelled and raised my voice in prayer. But he comforted me. He, he allowed me to get it off my chest and he was with me the entire time as I came out of it. And I was, I was brought back into normal viewing of life. Um, I looked back and I can. This is where the Savior had walked with me side by side. Um, I felt my grandfather near a couple of times where angels from the other side were, were ministering to me and it was sacred. Now I look back on it and the pain that I felt, um, was worth the, the, um, price that I came to know the son of God. And what, what did you learn about him from this experience? If he suffered, you know, we read in Alma chapter 7, 11 through 13, that he suffered pains and sicknesses and infirmities and death of all kinds and emotional, physical, everything. He suffered all of it. Um. I, I, I realized that not only did he suffer what I'm suffering, which was extreme and pushed me to the very edge and I couldn't get suicide off my mind. I remember thinking there's, there's only one way out with this. I, if this is not going to end, I've got to take drastic measures. And I, I thought never going to commit suicide anyways. If he suffered just for what I suffered. And for no one else, I have a reason to pity for what he did for me, but he suffered everyone's anxiety, everyone's heartache, everybody's emotional challenges, everybody's diabetes, broken limbs. The Holocaust. You name all the horrible things that have happened in this world, he suffered all of it. And so it gave me a glimpse, even just a small little tiny glimpse, of what he suffered. Because my suffering was ever suffer. I, I didn't think I would survive it. I got blessing after blessing from, from my brothers and from friends. And I was trying just to keep my head up. I couldn't even sleep. John, I, I would go to bed at night and, and, um, I would be awake all the night, and when I did fall asleep, I'd have night terrors, like the anxiety was, was, was, uh, alive in my dreams, and I'd wake up in a cold sweat and shaking and, and I would not be able to go back to sleep, and I went weeks of having that happen, but Christ suffered all of it, which is, which is unreasonable in my mind to think that He suffered. We learn from John chapter 10. No man can take his life except he lay it down. And so, the pain and the misery and the awfulness he could feel would surpass our point of, of living, where we would die. But he can continue to live through it. And I just have the utmost gratitude for what he did for me. I remember my mother one time saying that, The medication that pulled me out of this would not exist had it not been for the atonement of Christ. That because of his atonement, that medication was invented to help me to live a normal life and not feel that awful fear. As you're talking about this, this, this anxiety, I'm trying, uh, and your example of the cougar being on the trail, is that what you said? Standing out, hiking in the mountain and a cougar's on the trail and, you know, we're designed to, okay, in that moment, you got that flight moment. You either fight or flight, right? And so, in that moment, you're running and you finally get away from it and our body's designed to come down. But from listening to you and your just continual description and talking about this, what I'm kind of thinking is, Getting in my head is that you were constantly in that flight or fight mode constantly. There was no coming down. And there's no way to get away from it and there's no way to fight it. So the fight and the flight, neither one worked. Which is just exhausting because you're, you're, It doesn't allow you to sleep because that cougar is going to come attack you and eat you. So, oh my goodness, this is, And your description of what the savior went through. It's a whole nother level. I really appreciate your description. What did you learn about him and his attributes from this experience? Well, it wasn't until after I ate. I pulled out of it, and when I say pull out of it, it, it's still there. I can, there's days where I can feel it pushing against the door and I can feel the medications keeping it away if, if I, if I don't get enough sleep, if I too stressed or whatever. So it's still there. And so I constantly think can father that, that it, it works, that the medication's working, but it wasn't until after. I came across a church news article about Elder David A. Bednar speaking at a Mission's President training in the MTC in July of, must have been like 2019 or 20, no it was 2019. And he talked about the character of Christ. And I came across this little article that kind of mentioned what that talk was about, because he gave the same talk to the Mission Presidents. And I yelled for the other teachers in the building. I said, have you guys read this talk? And they all said, yeah, we've all read that talk. We read that as missionaries in the MTC. But that talk. It's about Christ. The more he suffered, the more he thought of others, where, where we, we suffer when the pain is so extreme, we become inward and want to take care of us. You know, we, we even use the word hangry talking about hunger, that you become angry when you're hungry and you treat other people poorly when you start to suffer. I remember reading about Christ when he was mourning the loss of his cousin when John the Baptist was beheaded. He went on a mountain place apart, he got on a boat all by himself and went on a mountain place apart. And then the multitude followed him. And that when he followed him, instead of him saying, you know what, this is not a good time. I'm really hurt right now. I've got tears in my eyes. My cousin's just been beheaded. I need time by myself. He healed their sick and ministered to them. And even when the apostles came and said, It's time for them to leave. We have no food. The word is victuals in the scripture. They have no victuals. There's no food. And instead of Christ saying, you know what, this is my out. Yes, I'm going to use this, and let's send them away now. Let them go eat. That's when he said, bring what you have. And they had five loaves and two fishes, and he split the food and fed 5, 000 men. Not including women and children. So, if every man had a wife and a child, that's 15, 000 people that were there. And he stayed with them until the evening time. And then they left and he was by himself and that's why he was not with the apostles later that evening into the next morning when the ship was, they're out in the water and he walks on water to them. That's why he's not with them and he walks to them because he spent that time by himself. But my point in saying that is he suffered and blessed others. While he suffered and and when he's on the cross He's thinking of his mother John to care of my mom. He's thinking of those who are Crucifying and he says forgive them for they know what they do. He's not thinking about him. He's thinking about us It wasn't or think about them And it wasn't until just the last couple of years where President Nelson, um, pointed out in Hebrews 12. 2 that when Christ was on the cross, he felt joy for what he was going to do for us. And I went and looked at Hebrews 12. 2 and it's exactly what it says and it just blew me away. That instead of Christ being, um, inward of this is the pain of the cross. I am feeling I'm trying my very best to get through this so I can bless the life of every human being that's ever been on this planet. Instead, he's feeling joy for what he was going to do for all of us to be able to repent and make covenants and come home to our Heavenly Father. And so, It's just crazy because when I was suffering, there were a couple of times that I, I thought, okay, I've got to go do something. I've got to go do something. And so in the midst of my pain, I went and helped shovel driveways when the snow had come really, um, had, had built up someone's driveway. I helped him. But most of the time I was inward thinking, just feeling inside of me the pain that I was feeling and trying to isolate and stay in my bedroom and cry and not be around people. But, um, Christ was exact opposite. How did, how has that, uh, shaped you? Uh, when I hurt, When I hurt now, um, when I went through a divorce in 2016, um, I, I thought, what can I do to, to, to help others? Because others have helped me. Um, a man by the name of Terry Huggins. I've never met him. Lives in Arizona. He, uh, found out from a friend of mine that I was going through a divorce and he had been through a divorce. And that man called me almost every single day. I'd lost my job teaching seminary. I'd lost my family. I'd lost my dog. I'd lost everything. And Terry called me. over and over, kept giving me support and give me love and encouragement that I can get through this. And I've never met him still to this day. I've never met him, but he was a strength to me, a God sent to me at a time I needed it the most. And so I have tried to make myself. more useful in this world, just like you're doing with this podcast. Um, I'm very vocal now about, about my suffering and what I went through. Um, when I went through it, I didn't let anyone, my wife knew my son knew my mom knew my, I, I was serving as a principal at a, at a large seminary. And then when it was over with, I thought, why was I so quiet about that? Why was I so, I'm not, not really embarrassed, but I just was hit. I kept it hidden. And, um, The church came out and said anybody who suffered with these things we want to make a video So I contacted the I sent an email and they contact me and so they put me in the video like a broken vessel from Elder Holland's talk in October 2013 So I'm interviewed on that with several others. And so because of that My, my Facebook just exploded. Like I friends from different parts of my life, reaching out to me, I suffer with the same thing. I've got anxiety, I've got depression. And so I've been able to be a, an instrument to help others to navigate their journey through the horror as well. That would be a dream for this podcast episode. I hope somebody out there is feeling inspired as I'm inspired right now, or it just feels motivated to turn to the savior and, and, and, you know, maybe reach out to somebody like you did, you talk about. Kind of like you, you still have it, but you, you said you had it for like those nine months. So, and then you had a date. So I'm just curious. How did you feel like, Oh, I'm finally pulling out of this. So my, um, my psychiatrist, he told me that because I'm lacking certain chemicals in my brain. That, that, my brain will send awful signals to me to scare me, to cause me to feel anxiety and fear. And while I'm going through this, it's dumping all these chemicals into my brain that, that I needed. So my, my brain actually betrays me. It sends me these awful signals. You're not worthy. You're, you're not going to make it to the celestial kingdom. You've sent way too much. Those type of thoughts. And the brain, the brain, my brain sends me those thoughts and then I respond to it. And then I'm going through hell. My brain is bathed in these chemicals. So the brain learns if I send these signals. I get the chemicals I want. And so the medication helps the brain to get the chemicals it needs. So when I was going through it, my, my, my psychiatrist said, he said, whatever thoughts are coming to you, those are the thoughts that your, that your brain knows you'll never do. And that gave me comfort because, uh, exposure therapy made me write down in like, well, I, I told him that I was, I couldn't get suicide off my mind and my psychiatrist said, well, then that, that's the case, then you're never going to commit suicide. I said, what are you talking about? I can't stop thinking about it. He said, your brain is sending you that signal because it knows you'll never take your own life. So it's causing you to freak out. And then the brain gets the chemicals it wants. He said, so fight against it, and write down the very thing your brain is telling you to do. And flood your brain with that thing. So I would write down, I'm going to commit suicide. And then he had me write down the level of anxiety that I felt. Like, number 10, I'm going to commit suicide. And he kept having me write that over and over and over again. So by telling my brain, yes, I was going to commit suicide, it caused me to commit suicide. It's kind of like when you, uh, when you jump into a cold swimming pool, at first you're freezing cold, you can't breathe and you're, you want to get out as fast as you can, but if you stay in the, the cold water, The water feels like it changes and becomes warm and you become used to it. It's not that the temperature in the water changed. It was the exposure to my, to your brain that overloaded where the brain finally let go of sending the signals that you're cold. Or it's like eating a meal where you take a bite and that first bite is so delicious. I have not eaten something like this so long and you're eating. But by the time you finish the plate, by the time you're your last few bites, you're not even thinking about how good the meal was because your brain is overloaded feeling the same thing over and over. You don't realize at the end of the meal that how good it tastes compared to the beginning. So the more, more I flooded my mind with the things that I am scared of was that I'm going to go through it. that I'm going to take my own life, all those types of things. So when I start feeling the anxiety now, instead of running from it and, and, and cowering from it, I walk towards it and not be afraid of it. So often I've got seminary students who, who's, who have anxiety and mom and dad, just don't let them go to school. I think that's the exact opposite of what you need to have happen. They need to go to school and face that. And push against that anxiety and it'll eventually go away. It's a strange thing. So how did I know I came out of it? I just, I could feel that my thoughts, I started being in control of my thoughts again. Where I wasn't getting these awful signals. And the anxiety wasn't Wasn't there as much as it was when I went through divorce in 2016, the anxiety came back pretty strong, but my psychiatrist told me, he says, the medication doesn't keep you from feeling it just keeps you from from having the pressures of the anxiety. Come on, he said. So if you if you have a child or if you lose your job or anything like that, he said, you'll feel the anxiety. And, and just, just know that the medication's working. So when it hit me again in 2016, I knew that it was, I was going to get through it because the medication was working and it did and I pulled out of it. So every time I feel the anxiety now, I just think, okay, this is temporary. The medication's working. I'm going to move through this. And, and real reality is it's all because of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's all because of him. What's all because of him? Clarify that real quick. All the healing. All of the, all the lessons that, that medical personnel know. The therapist of how to, how to, how to rethink your life. And how to, everything that is positive. And, you know, we read Moroni chapter 7. That, that all good comes from Christ. Everything good comes from Him. And that's one reason why I love studying about World War II. During the worst times. One of the worst in human history is when the most grandiose people and stories and miracles came about because of, because of Christ intervening in that horrible time. You can see the hand of the Lord all through those, that horrible time period. Yeah. I love the story. For example, of Corrie Ten Boom, the hiding place that comes to mind, she's a miraculous woman I look up to. So let's just go back because I, I know this is not an easy topic. There's no easy answers and there's no quick fixes with OCD, scrupulosity, anxiety, um, but let's just highlight some things that helped you to pull through was, first of all, we've talked about Jesus Christ, we've, you've talked about medication and you've talked about a psychiatrist, um, how do you see those three working together? I remember thinking I'm 43 years old and And I've had 43 good years. I didn't recognize earlier in my life all the little times of anxiety that I've had. But when it hit me like a freight train, I thought, I can, I can go another 45 years. If I'm going to live to be 90, I'm going to, I'm going to hold faithful and strong to my covenants. Because I know. There's there's a better world coming. So my hope of knowing that even if I suffered the rest of my life, that this was not the end game of my, of my existence, um, knowing that. Therapy is not what I needed. It excluded that pretty quickly. And the medication. And the priesthood help. I remember one time I went over to my bishop's house just in tears. I just said, I need your help. I'm not getting the help I need. And he prayed about it and he came back and said, You've got to get into a psychiatrist. Because I was using my family doctor. And I didn't realize this, but a psychiatrist. Is, is a man who has a, he's an, or a woman who's an MD, uh, is a doctor, a, a, a doctor. He has a, um, A medical doctor who is specialized in the brain. And that's all they do is they know how to prescribe the medications to bring you out of, out of mental, mental things. And anyways, I, I, when I go and see him once a year in his office, I just, I thank him again for his medical knowledge and what he knew to pull me out of it, that he had the expertise and the, and the skills and following the spirit and getting me on the right medication, pull me out. And so I've sent. Many friends to him and he's pulled him off. He knows exactly he's he's he knows exactly what what they need to Get them out of the horror that they're experiencing Looking back at this experience, how has this changed your view of Life and our journey here your perspective on people mental health issues How has this changed you as a man? Oh, my goodness. I am so much more compassionate and empathetic of those who suffer, especially with this, because when I was serving as a bishop. Uh, I had several people come into my office and tell me that they're feeling darkness, that they're scared, that they, and they're describing anxiety and depression. And so I told them, go outside, go walk in the, walk outside, get some fresh air, drink water more, get better sleep, exercise more, eat better foods. I gave them all this prescription of what I thought I needed, what they thought they needed. And it wasn't until I went through it myself that there was nothing to fix it. It didn't matter how much I exercised or ate well or drank well, nothing helped it. Nothing made it go away. So when it was all over with, I went back to a couple of the dear sisters in my ward. And I said, I need to apologize to you because I didn't understand. I didn't understand what you were going through. I tried my very best to help you navigate through that pain. And now I've gone through it and I understand it. And so one of these dear sisters said, She said, I'm happy you understand what I'm going through, but I'm sad that you had to go through it. And here's the majesty of it. God is not sitting on his throne with love and kindness. Instead, he got off that throne and came down to this planet and he He experienced the worst of all of it. You know, Hebrews chapter 4 verses 15 says that he suffered all temptation and gave heed to none of it. Whereas we suffer with some temptations and give in to some of it. He suffered all of it and gave in to none of it. So there's nothing he doesn't understand. You know, I can only What would it be like to go to my, my God who loves me, but has never experienced what I'm experiencing. And he tries to show me love and compassion, but he cannot show me empathy because he's not experienced it. Jesus, there's nothing I can go to the father in the name of his son without the son saying I get that because I've experienced it. And we know from, from a general conference in 2005 by elder Merrill J. Bateman. That it wasn't a compound of all of everything he suffered all at once, but it was individually, one by one. So he knows how I feel about my What I felt through my anxiety And my darkness of what I went through different than somebody else and knows how to sucker me he knows how to run to my aid And and minister to me number one because he's experienced it and he knows exactly what i'm feeling and number two He's got the right Um, the right answers to help me heal because of what he went through. And so we don't worship a God who loves us from afar. We have a God that walked with us and experienced mortality in its fullness and all the awful dregs of that bitter cup that he drank. He understands it. Amen to that. We don't have a God that sits on a throne but a God who walks with us Welcome to walking with the Savior podcast people. That's what we talking about. Oh, I love that Alan your testimony so powerful so firm and What what would just be your last message if a lady or man or brother or sister showed up to you and said? I'm facing some of this darkness that you experienced. To hold on to? Hope. Don't give up. Don't give up. My first thing to respond to something like that is, there's hope. You know, Elder Holland says that there's, there's, there's brightness at the end of the day. Just keep holding on. Don't give up that there is a way out through healing, through, through the therapy or medication or whatever it needs or change of environment or whatever it needs to have happened to get through it, that there's hope at the end of the tunnel. You know, today, Alan and I were wearing this shirt. You're awesome. And I wear these shirts because, and I hold up signs that say you're awesome, and I pass out cards that say you're amazing. And, it all comes about because I had some students that I lost from suicide. And, and I was pondering one Sunday, what could I do? And, I got this idea, you know, hold up a sign that says you're awesome, or you're gold, or you're amazing. And, so now I, I hold up these signs and I Look at people and I point to my son and I smile and say you're awesome. You're gold, whatever and The whole genesis of it was I don't know walking in the halls of school when I have you know All these people come and walking by me which one's thinking about hurting themselves today. I don't know and And it doesn't over Doesn't always show Yeah. It's like what President Eyring said. He said, treat everybody like they're in trouble and half the time you're, you're right. Yeah. We, we, we all have a bag of sorrows that we're carrying of pain that we smile through it and don't let others be part of it. And, you know, to my audience, my friends out there who are tuning in, if you're listening to this, I'm, man, I just want you to know if you're hurting like this, I just want to give you a hug. And if I, if I were with you, I'd give you a hug and I'm a lot more. I should say huggy now, like at church, I shake people's hands and once I've got to know him a little bit, I give him a bro hug, a bro hug, you know, and I like, I love you bro, because I don't, I don't know who's hurting in my, you know, my, uh, my church or whatever, you know, my congregation, I don't know who's hurting and I don't want anybody to leave without knowing that somebody spoke to them and talked to them and knew that They felt love. And I, you know, I think it present Kimball where he says most of the time people's prayers are answered by other people. And so another thing that I'm aware of is who I'm thinking about who, what, what names are coming to me throughout the day. And as soon as I do, I reach out and, you know, that's, that's one of the things before I'd gone through this anxiety. I had a sister, my ward sister Anderson, who was, who had cancer. And I had a feeling to go visit her and I didn't go do it. And my wife finally said, it's been a few days since you've contacted Mr. Anderson. And the day that I was going to contact her after work, I found out that she ended up passing away a few hours earlier, a lie thought. I will never let that happen again. If I get somebody's name in my thoughts, I'm reaching out to that person and showing them love. That's a great. Life motto right there. And, I, I just, man, I want to be, I want to get better at that. At, uh, Acting on those impressions, hearing those impressions and reaching out and love. Well, Alan, thank you so much for coming on and sharing such a mighty witness of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the hope. Jesus is the life. Jesus is the way. And because of Jesus, we have technologies today. Those are just truths that he's known about for centuries, but because of his light and truth Those have come forward in our day to help us with these struggles, and I don't think I see it as oh You either got faith or you got medicine. No, I think our faith leads us to great medication and to answers and to our problems and our struggles through the light and knowledge we've gained in society today. Elder Holland. Elder Holland said, if you had appendicitis, you would seek for a priesthood blessing and the best medical help. You've got to have both. Amen. Have both. And it's blessed my family to be able to go get. Some, you know, help for mental illness in my family and, but yet I'm here preaching Jesus Christ. And so let's not turn our back from the technologies, the advances that have been made and brought forth because of Jesus Christ. Thank you so much for being real and raw with us. And um, I know that people are going to be blessed for this message to all those out there Be sure to hit like leave us a comment. Tell alan what you think of his message today and Stay tuned for next week when we walk with the savior. Have a great day everybody