Forgiveness, Reconciliation & the Enabling Power of Jesus Christ (Feat. Roger Connors) - EP 126

In this episode of Walking With the Savior, the John Kirkman interviews author and leadership consultant Roger Connors about his book Healing the Wounded Heart: Forgiving One Another Through the Enabling Power of Jesus Christ. Connors explains a key misconception: divine forgiveness is conditional on repentance, while brotherly forgiveness is unconditional, and confusing the two leads people to wait for apologies or restitution.

He discusses why the our savior commands forgiving all, how trusting Christ as the perfect judge helps release the burden of resentment, and why forgiveness is a process that can come in a decisive moment through the Savior’s power.

The conversation explores reconciliation as the ultimate goal, the mental and physical costs of unforgiveness, developing a forgiving nature, forgiving oneself, and becoming a peacemaker.

Roger Connors book is available for preorder now with the book releasing July 1 on Amazon.

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00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro
00:57 Roger Connors Background
02:05 Why Write This Book
03:46 Two Types of Forgiveness
05:26 Why Forgiveness Matters
07:37 How to Actually Forgive
08:37 Trusting Christs Atonement
12:44 Reconciliation and Healing
15:52 Stories of Forgiveness Moments
21:41 Rest and the Pickleball Reset
24:51 Forgiveness Research and Empathy
27:27 Mental Health Models
28:54 Bitterness Hurts Health
30:12 The 25 Pound Metaphor
32:04 Marriage Forgiveness Exercise
35:17 Pickleball Grudge Lesson
37:01 Building A Forgiving Nature
39:51 Revenge Versus Vengeance
41:07 Choosing Not To Offend
45:07 Decision To Forgive
47:02 Forgiveness Is A Process
48:39 Forgiving Yourself Too
50:20 Peacemakers In Families
53:32 Proof You Truly Forgave
55:23 Book Release And Farewell

#WalkingWithTheSavior #JohnKirkman #RogerConnors #HealingTheWoundedHeart #Forgiveness #JesusChrist #ChristianPodcast #FaithInChrist #ChristianLiving #HealingTheHeart #ForgiveOneAnother #EnablingPowerOfJesusChrist #Reconciliation #Peacemaker #OvercomingResentment #ChristianAuthor #SpiritualGrowth #SelfForgiveness #ChristianLeadership #GospelPrinciples

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Research is I've gathered stories from people about how they've been able to forgive. It's almost true in 100% of the cases where it comes in a moment, like there's some moment where they are given the ability to forgive, which I think is really important because we we often feel like, I don't know how I'm going to do it. How am I going to forgive? You don't have to do it. The Savior's going to help you do it.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Welcome everybody to this week's episode of Welcome with the Savior Podcast. Welcome, my friends. You are so awesome. You are so valuable. You are loved. And I'm excited to be here with you today. Today I've invited an author, um, Roger Connors, on today, to share a little bit about his book, Healing the Wounded Heart. And that title just grabbed me. Healing the Wounded Heart just touched my whole soul. Uh, I was like, I want to hear about this. And uh the subtitle is Forgiving One Another Through the Enabling Power of Jesus Christ. Woo! That gets me excited. And so Roger is not a first-time author. Uh Roger, tell us uh a little bit about some of your uh books in the past.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Well, most of my books are uh leadership books. So my career has been a leadership consulting and training. I've kind of been a uh, I don't know, team therapist from time to time for leadership teams throughout the world as they've tried to manage difficult, challenging circumstances. And I've written a lot about that. I've written a lot about personal accountability and how empowering your organization to feel personally accountable in a positive way really leads to better results. So that's been fun to really experiment with human performance and how correct principles really can drive the right kind of culture that produces positive, uh empowered, successful people in the work that they do. So that's been a lot of my focus. And then uh I wrote a church book uh a couple of years ago, Divine Patterns, and had a blast. It was so much fun. And uh and then this this one came up as something that really touched my heart and was fun to fun to work on.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

So, what experiences have you had that led to you writing uh healing the wounded heart?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

You know, we all we all have a story. We all have a story about a time when you know some wrongdoing occurred to us and we had to process that. And I don't think my situation's really all that different from anyone else. I I I like everyone else have had that experience, you know, probably multiple times more than once. But as I pondered, what does it really mean to forgive? And what does that imply I need to do, and have I done it? That led me down the road of really looking into that, really digging into it. And I gotta tell you, it was it was eye-opening. And I'm, you know, I've been in the church, I'm a convert of the church. I joined the church when I was 18. My uh my family's really different. My sister's a Lutheran minister, and so is her husband. My mom's Presbyterian, my dad's Episcopalian, my brother's a surfer. So everybody, everybody in our family has a different way of looking at God. I kind of joke with people. I say, you know, to keep things to keep things cool when we're together, we avoid talking about religion, we just keep it strictly to politics. And you know, that doesn't work. So we have a hard time relating with each other. But I, you know, uh as much as I've studied in the church over the how many, however many years it's been 45 years and I've been a member of the church, I didn't really fully grasp uh some of these concepts and principles that are so basic. And it's been it's been eye-opening to just really refine my understanding on it.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So, what's kind of a misconception that people might have about forgiveness? And and we're we're talking about forgiving others, right? What might be a misconception that people have about that that that you wanted to clear up or clarify in your book?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Well, that gets it that really gets to the heart of it because I think, you know, in Hebrew, there's two different words that describe the two kinds of forgivenesses that we're going to be talking about. In English, we use one word, forgiveness, to describe them both. And the problem is we commingle these doctrinal principles and get them confused. So the two kinds of forgiveness we talk about, the first is divine forgiveness, which is it, which is when I sin, I repent and seek forgiveness from God. So that divine forgiveness comes based on the conditions of repentance, it's a conditional arrangement. Then we use the same word forgiveness to refer to brotherly forgiveness, which has nothing to do with divine forgiveness. The principles don't apply, it's a different concept. Brotherly forgiveness is me forgiving another person, and it's unconditional. But because we commingle these concepts, we we impute the conditions of divine forgiveness onto brotherly forgiveness, meaning, I'll forgive you when you make restitution, I'll forgive you when you apologize to me, I'll forgive you when you show some sorrow or remorse. And none of those conditions are required by the Savior for us to offer our forgiveness. In fact, his command is to forgive all men and to let justice rely with him.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Why do you think uh and what have you learned about uh the importance of brotherly forgiveness?

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Well, the Savior said we can't be forgiven of our sins if we don't forgive others of their wrongdoing. So that's kind of a dilemma for us. You know, we we have these experiences where we get deeply wounded and and we're hurt, some great trust has been betrayed, some wrongdoings occurred that is totally unjustified. And the savior saying, well, in fact, the savior says in the Doctrine of Covenant, section 64, if you don't forgive, you're under condemnation, and it's a sin worse than the than the wrongdoing that occurred to you. And I thought about that for a minute. I said, okay, well, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, just one minute here. So is the savior saying, if someone murders my father, and I don't forgive them, I'm guilty of the greater sin? Because that's what the scripture says, you're guilty of the greater sin. How could my unforgiveness of the person who murdered my father be more serious than the actual murder of my father? That's of course, I'm picking an extreme example to make the point, but that's the doctrine. Yeah. And the Savior's command is that we should forgive. So in the book, I go deep into that idea of why is that the case, and uh what is the doctrine behind it. So those are the kinds of things that prompted me to say, hey, we should I should dig into this.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

This is a really tough issue, and forgiveness is not easy. This is really, really hard for a lot of people, and especially in the day we leave it live, it seems like there's some really unfair, unfortunate things that happen in people's lives. And then we show up and hear a sermon about forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Right. Exactly. The sermon is always you should you you have to forgive, but there's no here, and here's how you do it.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

So help me out, brother. How do I get past those hurts? You know what I mean? How how do I get how do I what what are some of the things you you're teaching?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

You know, I think it there's there's kind of layers of understanding that that help us get there. One layer of understanding is the doctrine. I think the place to start is to know that we have to, like for us to receive forgiveness, we have to forgive others. So if if we're holding ourselves accountable to that doctrine, then we start with the idea that, okay, I've got to get there. So now how do I how do I do that? But I start with the understanding that I need to do it. And and it doesn't have to, it doesn't say do it right now, right this second, right? So but but it means that's where I need to go. That's that's where I need to get to. And then I think um complete healing comes from you know, kind of constructing the model for the path I have to take. So, number one, it's understanding the atonement. And the Savior's atonement, he atoned for the sins of all men and women who ever lived or ever will live, and any sin they've ever committed. And he atoned perfectly. He paid the laws of justice, he understands the circumstances, the motivations, and he will hold everyone accountable for their wrongdoing that they haven't repented of. And so here we have the Savior who's already made restitution for the sins and wrongdoings that were committed against us and those that will come. The wrongdoings that still haven't even occurred to us have already been paid for by the Savior. So you got to have that building block of doctrinal understanding to kind of get where you need to get to if you're a member of the church. And so I begin with, you know, in the book, I try to lay out kind of the building blocks. You can trust Christ to be the perfect judge. No one will get away with anything. When you forgive someone else of a wrongdoing against you, some people worry, well, I'm letting them off the hook. They won't be held accountable. And that just isn't the case. The savior will hold everyone accountable for all wrongdoing, and he will do it perfectly. So, do I trust that? Like, can I give it over to him? That that I think, in essence, the Savior is saying, the reason you're guilty of the greater sin, that the person who murdered your father, if you don't forgive them, the reason you're guilty of the greater sin if you don't forgive is because it's your reflection of my atonement. It's your denial of my atonement, it's your lack of faith and uh acceptance of the atonement of Jesus Christ. That's what that's reflecting. Because what you're in essence is saying is I don't trust God to take care of this and to take care of it perfectly. I'm gonna take care of it my own way, and it won't even be perfect, it won't even be right. In fact, we are so wrong. When I when I went through the book and did some of this research, it was crazy. Uh, some of the research on how often we misjudge others, to what degree do we misjudge? Some of the research has shown us like 80% of the time, we misjudge others' motivations, their intentions. We make information based on bad data, bad decisions. We we have incomplete understanding, we have no understanding of context. So we miss the point like all the time. So, how in the world could we ever be a good judge without all the good information? Well, of course, the savior is perfect and he has more intelligence than all the intelligences combined that ever existed in eternity. I can't even comprehend that. That's some really cool kind of AI. I, you know, you think about what AI can do, and AI is nothing compared to where the savior's at, but that's that's just the intelligence piece, not even the motivation piece. Now you take intelligence and you add the savior's motivation to it. Why would the savior judge someone? Is he partial? Is he biased? Does he does he have favorites? The answer is no, no, no. And so you have not only a perfect judge who knows all things, but his motivation is is perfectly pure. And so that's who we're turning it over to. So when we when we don't do that, we're denying the atonement itself and the very role of the savior. And I think that's why when we read the scriptures, we see that we'd be under greater condemnation.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

It really becomes this evaluation of the savior's work and how we really see him. Can we really trust him? It's almost like, yeah, I trust you in everything. It's ever the way you're gonna handle this guy because you're gonna let him go, and I don't want you to let him go. He deserves punishment. It's like just trust me, just trust me. I love that. So you have a chapter in the book called Reconciliant Reconciliation Leads to Complete Healing. What's that chapter about?

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Well, and this, and I I have a reader warning in the book, you know. So when like there's it comes a like when I get about halfway through the book, I put a reader warning in because you know, people can be real, I mean, victims of terrible things. Yes. And if someone's reading who is one someone who's been subjected to that misery, um, it's hard to kind of think about some of these concepts and ideas, and you gotta be ready. You gotta be ready for it. So my reader warning is look, if you're not ready, like if we're at this point and you're kind of on the fence, you may not want to read this right now. Maybe, maybe come back later and read this part. Because ultimately, if you go back to the Savior's prayer in John 17, he prays that we would all be one as he is in the Father, and as the Father is in him, that we would be one with them. You can't be one if you're not reconciled with all individuals. So a celestial being will not be harboring any ill will, and they will have reconciled to the degree that they can with any wrongdoer that they've ever encountered. And so that reconciliation, the Savior even taught, he said, before you come to the altar, uh, if you have aught with your brother, go first be reconciled. He uses the word, reconciled to him. He wants you to be proactive and being reconciled, if you're you're feeling it, not not that you're the wrongdoer, but that you're the one feeling the ought against your brother. Go be reconciled with him first, then come back to the altar. So, what the Savior, I think, is teaching is his ultimate goal is that we would all be one. So I think what that means, and I I believe I have the support from the teachings of the church leaders on this in the book, is that ultimately you will have to, you will need to, you will want to be reconciled with your wrongdoer, even in the most extreme of circumstances. And I share a couple of stories in it where uh, and some of them are known stories where just the most tragic things have happened uh and and the the victims of it have become reconciled with those who wrong did wrong to them. And the freedom and liberation that they felt was amazing, but I think that's what the Lord wants for all of us to be one together at some point. So, so the the takeaway from that is forgiveness isn't the goal, it's reconciliation. Forgiveness is a step towards reconciliation. The Lord doesn't need you to reconcile right now, it can happen in the next life. If if this life isn't the time where you're going to be able to face your wrongdoer and create reconciliation, that's probably the case in many circumstances. But ultimately, in the eternal sense, reconciliation will need to occur to complete the cycle of complete healing.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

That is a wild concept, but so valuable. It reminds me of the story of Corey Tinboom. I don't know if you're familiar, uh it's in the book, yeah. It's in the book, okay. There you go. Okay, I'll tell it, I'll tell it what I remember. I haven't read your book, uh, but Corey Tinboom, World War II, was in a concentration camp for saving Jews. Her and her family hid Jews uh to hide them from the Nazis. And so her entire family went to a concentration camp and you know was there for hor horrible, horrible, horrible atrocities for months. And I can't remember the exact timeline. If she was it was like a year and a half or two years, I can't remember. And and afterwards, she gets out and she had lost all of her family. And she gets out and she says, she started giving speeches about we need to forgive. And at one of the speeches she was at, she was speaking, this German soldier, and this is years later, a German soldier soldier walks up to her and says, Corey, do you remember me? And it was this awful, awful, mean, horrible man who it who was a guard in the concentration camp and just treated her so horrible and did atrocious things. And he said, You know, your words spoke life to me. Do you forgive me? And he reaches out his hand to Corey, and in her mind, she's like, Oh my, I can't do this. Lord, give me the strength, and she extends that hand to him. And she said, in that moment, she extended that hand, she felt this electricity or this love just pour into her body from the spirit and help her to forgive that man. Now, I don't know if that's the exact story you share in your story, but that's it. That's it. Um, what would you add to that?

SPEAKER_00 18:26

What I would add is when she when she extended her hand, she said in that moment she found forgiveness. And that is what I found common. In my research, is I've gathered stories from people about how they've been able to forgive. It's almost true in 100% of the cases where it comes in a moment, like there's some moment where they are given the ability to forgive, which I think is really important because we we often feel like, I don't know how I'm gonna do it. How am I going to forgive? You don't have to do it. The Savior's gonna help you do it. That moment will come to you. Uh, I remember one story, uh, and I won't tell you who it was because I told him I keep it confidential. But this young lady, she was in a uh young young adult ward, and she was in an institute choir, and uh she's in an institute choir with her friend, and she was dating this guy, and this guy said he was interested in her friend while they were dating, and it really bugged her. They kept dating for a while, then they stopped dating, then her friend started dating this guy, and it was really hard on her. She was she was not like that at all, and she was feeling estranged from her friend because of it, like it was separating them, barrier came up almost where they weren't talking together. And she said, I was praying to to be able to get over this, but it just wasn't working. And then she found herself at Institute and she was asked to sing a song, and she's saying, Savior, redeemer of my soul. And she stood up in front of the group, her friend was sitting in the front row, and so she's standing there seeing this almost former friend at this point, and she starts singing this hymn, and when she got to one verse, excuse me, one line in the song, in the hymn, turned frowning. I think it's turned frowning foes into smiling friends or something like that, it it changed in that moment, in that instant, it changed, and she forgave. And she said, When I when I stopped the song and sat down, we were friends once again.

unknown 20:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

And that is the common element reaching out to shake a hand, singing a hymn, whatever it is, almost everyone in the story has this point in time where it happened to them, it's not something they made happen. They mean they were working on it, but something happened to them. The savior touched them in a way that allowed them to forgive.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

I think that's why we're limited in our ability to forgive, is because it's kind of a leap of faith. Like when we're told to forgive, the Lord's almost like, I know you can't do it alone. You have to trust me. And what you just described is that we are gonna step onto the uh, you know, the children of Israel. They had to step into the Red Sea with Joshua, the Joshua story. They had to step into the Red Sea to get their feet wet before the Red Sea would part. And I think that's kind of what's going on here. Is that and and it seems intimidating, okay? Step into the Red Sea and walk across it. And you're like, that's impossible. You don't understand my story. You just don't get it. But the Lord's like, step into the Red Sea, get your feet wet, and I promise there will be a miracle. And that is why it's so hard is because we can't see the miracle up ahead, but it only comes when we touch our toes into that Red Sea.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

I love it. Great example. You know, the Savior, the Savior scripture, come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Lay your yoke upon me, right? The rest he's talking about, I think, to a large extent, is the rest from relieving you of the burden of bitterness and hatred and resentment and anger that comes with wrongdoing when people do wrong to you. We carry a burden. And when you allow the savior, when you come under the savior and allow him to lift that, that's the rest he's talking about. He's not talking about I have this really cool couch that you can come sit on and get rest, and then we'll put your feet up and give you some popcorn and watch the TV. You know, that's what we think rest means, right? But what the savior means when he says rest is is lifting the burden.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

And I I like the idea of rest as his presence. And so it's like that rest comes in his presence. And so if if we are sitting with Jesus, and that's what the yoke kind of portrays, except we're not sitting, if we're walking with Jesus and we're carrying the yoke, let's just be honest, who's gonna be carrying more of that yoke? And it's in his presence rather than just sitting on a couch by ourselves resting. At least that's how I and I think we got similar idea there.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

I don't want to deviate too much, but um I think this this relates. So I love to play pickleball. In fact, I was on a mission in Africa, and during my mission, uh, we were in South Africa in Johannesburg. Uh, we played, we started playing pickleball, and it became really fun. And I've I've continued on with it, it's been a great thing. There's so many examples from pickleball that apply to uh life. In fact, I'm writing a book for my grandchildren that's called What Pickleball Taught Me About Life and about the gospel. Um, but in pickleball, there's one shot that's really important to learn how to make. And if you can't make it, you probably won't be very effective. It's called a reset. And when you're up at the kitchen line, which for anyone listening, if they're not familiar, the kitchen line is about six feet away from the net, uh, and you can't step in the kitchen, so you have to be behind that line so you can hit the ball uh and return it. So when you do a reset, you're hitting the ball just over the net so it lands in the kitchen. So it's a really soft shot. But what a reset does is it it kind of slows the play. Like you can get in a hand battle with someone, you're hitting the ball back and forth across the net, it's going fast and furious, and then you hit a soft shot, you just drop it over the net, and they everyone has to stop. And now it resets, and then you reposition yourself to re-strategically approach the game. I think forgiveness in many ways is like a reset. You know, you you're you're caught up in your emotions. I talk about ruminating a lot in the book. Uh, by the way, this is really interesting. I had no idea that psychotherapy used forgiveness as a legitimate psychological tool. I had no idea. I thought it was more of a religious, I always thought about forgiveness as a religious kind of a context, but it's not. It's it's a secular practice. In fact, in my research, I found the top three researchers, Harvard, Stanford, and Oxford, that uh have done 20 years of study and practice in the field of mental health and forgiveness. And uh in fact, I was so curious, I thought, well, most of my readers would never know about this. So I reached out to all three of them, just blind, out of cold, a cold reach out. In fact, I went on AI and got their email addresses, believe it or not. I went on ChatGPT and they said, Do you know the email addresses for these three three guys? I got their email addresses off of Chat GPT. And so I emailed them and said, I'm writing this book, this is what it is. I'd love to include your model in the book. My readers will probably never see it unless I do this. All three of them responded within two days and said, Yes, you can do it. So I put that research in the book. And what's interesting is that uh there's some real commonalities between those those ideas. But the concept is this if you can if you can create some empathy for your wrongdoer, you empower yourself to be free. And that's the common thread between all the research that's been done. In fact, they have one little exercise where they they say, okay, you're gonna you're gonna be judge, jury, prosecuting attorney, defense attorney, all the roles that you play in a trial. And you're gonna hold the trial on your wrongdoer. And in your trial, you're gonna start by being the judge, being impartial, you're gonna be the defense attorney. What's the context for them? What was going on in their life? What did we not know that maybe would make a difference? Then the prosecuting attorney, why was it so bad? And then you're the jury to weigh it all. And they say that when people go through that exercise, they walk out more empathetic and more enabled to find a way to forgive because of that empathy. And I think at the end of the day, that's that's really key. It's it's uh it's one thing to forgive because you were told to, it's another thing to strive to forgive because you feel it's the right thing to do. And when you do that, you find ways to feel empathy for your wrongdoer. And you go, you know what, maybe I would have done something similar in the same situation. I don't know. Um, but you're at least willing to look at that and understand it.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Now that ties into this chapter, chapter eight: how forgiveness heals your mental health and well-being. That sounds I mean, that's gonna be a catcher. That's gonna be like, excuse me. Now you have some research here, and some people are researching it in the shall we call it the scholarly field or yeah, the scholastic secular world, right? Uh, but can you give me a little more about that and why you just named your title uh that chapter that that's a really catchy name for the it's been going on for decades.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

The the research on this has been going on for decades, and I would say there's a lot of psychotherapy practices that incorporate the notion of forgiveness with their clients. So it's not uncommon because because we're all we all have a story, we all we've all been wounded, that's not uncommon for them to help people kind of cope with what they do. And so in the book, I show the three different models that the researchers use, the practitioners use to help people through it. One of them has nine steps, one of them has 22 steps, and one of them has seven steps, you know, they all have their steps. Um, but they all they all have in common this notion of understanding better context of the wrongdoer. Uh, what was going on for them that would cause them to do it? Were they raised without a mom and dad? Did they were they subjected to um sexual abuse as a child themselves? You know, what what what was behind the story? Uh all of them have that that element in common. But the other thing that I thought was really interesting when you look at the work that they've done, um, is that each each one of them strives to help people build in their minds a layered understanding of rationale for why holding on to the the grudge, the the bitterness is hurting you. And they actually have measured uh in terms of happiness scales and also success scales, people who hold on to it versus people who don't. They're clients, people who have been able to let go and liberate themselves versus those who haven't. And we just don't realize the price we pay physically, our bodies. When we're holding that stuff in, when we have resentment and hatred or uh bitterness, that that's in our muscles, and it's it's in our bones, it's in our physical body gets affected by it. So they've shown medically that people improve in in their overall uh health and well-being, uh, not only emotionally uh but physically. And uh that, you know, I I started working out recently. I'm I'm an older guy, so that's kind of a weird thing. But I actually hired a personal trainer and I'm doing weightlifting for the first time. And I'm like, oh my goodness, my my body's responding. Like I'm building muscles and you know, I'm I'm more agile and pickleball. This is really cool. I'm 67 and man, I'm going at it. It's great. But what's really interesting is I picked up a weight the other day, it was a 25-pound dumbbell, and I picked that up, and I thought, because I've lost about 25 pounds in the last, I don't know, 10 months or something like that. And I thought, oh my goodness, I was carrying that around? That is so heavy. I don't know if when's the last time you picked up a 25-pound dumbbell, but they're heavy. That that was like a lot of weight. And I'm thinking, oh my goodness. And then I thought, what about emotionally? Like you're carrying around a 25-pound emotional dumbbell. That weight has to have an impact. And how freeing it is, and when I put the dumbbell down, I'm like, whoa, you know, that that that is that makes a difference. And I think not only can we do that physically by losing weight, we can do that mentally by liberating ourselves and losing the bitterness and hatred that we often carry with us.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Now, I'm gonna get real with you. Uh this is this is a perfect segue. I wasn't planning on sharing this. This just kind of came to my mind, and I want to share it with my listeners. But I like to think the I think one of the reasons why that 25 pounds is in so many of us are willing to carry around an extra 25 pounds, is because it's kind of scattered throughout the body and it's hard to notice, right? And yeah, you can get to a point where you're like, yeah, I'm way carrying a lot of extra weight, but sometimes an extra 25 pounds doesn't seem like so much. And I think that's a perfect segue into my story. Now, here's my personal story. So I want to say about five, six years ago, I went to like a men's group, right? And and it was it was kind of a personal approach to hey, work on my marriage just myself. By working on myself, I wanted to work on my marriage. And it this is no judgment against my wife. Uh, my wife is incredible, she's a powerful person, she's uh heroic and she does amazing things. And I love being married to my wife, but I'm just one of those guys that works on myself, and I wanted to take this men's group to work on our marriage and to become better men. That's really what it was, right? And it was gospel Jesus Christ focused, and one of the first modules and uh was forgiving. And we had to write down all the things and my for let me back up just a second. When I said I I don't need to forgive my wife, I I I have you know, an amazing marriage, I have married an amazing woman. There's no big big thing that I need to forgive my wife for. Coach pushback, write down everything that you felt a little bit hurt on, a little bit dis you know, maybe looked down upon or maybe disrespected, or any of those things. And here I was thinking, I don't have any grudges, but as I forced myself to do this and write down some little things and filled up a page. Now, keep in mind I'm not attacking my wife for every page I write about my wife, she's got 40 about me. And I mean it sincerely, okay, people. Usually if there's somebody needing to change, it's me. But as I did this activity, and we would we did it on paper, and then we would listen to a kind of a meditation and uh did that for multiple days. It it had a transformation on me, and I feel like it was allowed me to take my marriage to another level. There was some healing there that I didn't even know existed, kind of like that 25-pound weight you're talking about. Sometimes we think of the big things in our life that we might need to forgive, but I think there can be lots of little things, even in our maybe especially in our family relationships. And I don't know if I I needed I didn't take it to my wife and say, I I forgive you, but it was a process of putting it down, and then I can't remember exactly what we did with it tearing it up and throwing it away. Um that it started this healing process in me and really strengthened my marriage by cleaning house. And so it makes me wonder if the average marriage could benefit from a little uh house cleaning.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Oh yeah. Absolutely, what a great story. And and I think it's right on point. I you as you were describing that, um, I was thinking just what happened to me the other day. We were we were playing pickleball, and we we had uh there's a kind of a king's court situation. So if you win, you go you go on the king's court, and if you win there, you stay there until you lose. And the the sun was oriented, it was in the morning, and the sun was oriented where we were we won, but we were on the sunny side, looking staring at the sun. So if someone hit a lobby looking right at the sun, so it's a disadvantage. So the new the new folks came on to the court to play us, and I wanted to move over to the other side of the court and have a turn not in the sun, and they refused to to move. They said, no, we're we're standing right here. I'm like, seriously, we just played here. It's our it's our turn. We just won. It's our turn to be on their side. No, we're we're not moving. And I and I didn't want to make a thing of it, but I so I so I I went on the other side and I was I was miffed. I mean, it it it bothered me. And I don't visually show anger, but I was it just bugged me. Like I I was a couple of times trying to just hit the guy, you know, and with the ball, like you know, wham and smack him. And and it took me, it took me a few days to kind of just let it go. Like it I would think about it, just it just bugged me that someone would be so obstinate, something so stupid, right? Just something small. But but it it stayed with me for a couple of days, and I had to kind of work it through. And finally I said, you know, Roger, you know what to do. Just just just move on. Like, dude, let this go. And uh, it's not that it interrupted my life a lot, but it was annoying. It was like a little rock in my shoe. And I think you're right, things happen to us, and I think what what what I talk about in the book is it's not just forgiveness we're after, it's a forgiving nature. And a forgiving nature takes everything and just lets it go, right? It's it's emulating the savior all the time around the clock, and these little things don't get in and bug us, and we're not stuck. And man, how empowering is that! When you when you're kind of clean, you got clean energy and you're just moving, and you know, these little things, you just annoy it, you know. You someone cuts you off in a car on the road, you just you just move on. Like, don't even give that a second worth of thought, it's not worth it. And when you can do that, when you can have a forgiving nature, I think it's so empowering.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Wow, I really love that concept. How is our forgiving nature? And I'm looking at my wife and I now, and uh I look in inward. She has such a more uh I don't know what to call it, a forgiving nature than I do. And I've been working on that. I've been working on that because like you said, it's like it's just not worth it to take offense all these times. Like, you know, someone cupped you off in the road, uh why take offense? And it's it's almost like you said, it's it's a poison. And you have a chapter in here, the poison of revenge and the trap of unforgiveness. And I'm thinking about those little things are become little poisons and little traps. And for example, recently I was learn uh learning about microplastics or something in the body, and and it's like these literally, we are you know polluting our body with microplastics. Now, I don't want to get into that, but the point is is these tiny, tiny, tiny things start to hinder our health. And what I'm learning from you today and feeling from the spirit, maybe, is that these grudges and these little frustrations and these little w unwillingness to uh to forgive and just holding on to grudges, I kind of like them to these microplastics that are weighing me down spiritually. And so I'm really thinking personally, for me, I need to adopt a regular habit of forgiving people. I know that sounds really maybe odd, but I mean, as you're as you're thinking, and I'm telling you this, if I were to adopt a for practice of forgiving people, any tips you'd give on me adopting that practice?

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Well, I love the concept of being more structured about it initially, right? I think that's a good way to lean into it. I I do think as you mentioned, you know, the notion of revenge, we kind of get mixed up about that because there's there's the notion of revenge and there's a notion of vengeance. And they're two different things. Vengeance is kind of just payback, whereas revenge is our payback. And what the Lord said in the scriptures is vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. That's this quote. Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. The Lord will be the one who brings retribution if it's justified. If someone hasn't repented, they will pay the price. The uttermost farthing is what the Savior says they will do. So he's trying to say, you can not only trust me, I'm not only gonna make them pay, they're gonna pay the uttermost farthing, the smallest little amount. That farthing was the smallest little coin. And that's what he's trying to say is I'm not they're not just gonna pay. If they owe even one little cent, they're gonna pay. That's the accountability to God. Now, there's also mercy that we can be relieved from that burden if we repent, but if not, the Lord will take care of it. So that's vengeance. Revenge is when we decide we're gonna extract the other most farthing, and we don't have a right to do that. We have no right for revenge. In fact, in that chat, I think it's that chapter where I talk about taking offense, and uh Elder Bednar taught really the bottom line of what Elder Bednar taught is that we should never take offense ever. It's always a choice. Anytime we're offended, we we use the word I'm offended like it happened to me. And and actually, what Elder Bednar was trying to teach us, and what I think the scriptures teach, is that no, we take offense, we decide to be offended. It's a choice we make. That doesn't mean that uh someone hasn't done something wrong towards us, but it means our accountability is to not react to it, and so we can actually live in a way that we never take offense. So, what what I think is the foundation that you're describing is studying the topic of forgiveness so you have a doctrinal understanding of what did the savior do, why did he do it. Let's really understand the doctrine, because understanding the doctrine is empowering and it's more effective than just behavioral changes that you can make. And I believe Elder Packer made a statement along those lines that the what did he say, the study of doctrine is more powerful than study of behavior, something like that. Anyways, that's the concept that if we have a true doctrinal foundation of correct understanding of correct doctrine, that empowers us to now think and act in a way that our beliefs will shape us to be able to do what we need to do. So there's probably little tricks you can do to remind yourself and you know tell yourself this or that, have a coach, you know, whatever. And I talk about some of that in the book, but I think I think fundamentally it's understanding the doctrine, and that's and where we misunderstand the doctrine now, and that's why it becomes even more difficult for us to forget.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Yeah, and if I had to just add my thought to that and build off that, I think what I hear you saying is connecting it to Christ. If we connect it to the Savior, he becomes the source and the life power. And that's why I call this podcast walking with the savior, is it versus you know, being a better Christian or um, you know, being a member of the church or whatever. It it power comes from walking. With Jesus Christ. And if we take that, and I'm thinking, okay, I need to take some of this to Christ. I need to make this more of a practice. Clear out the microtoxins. Lose the 25 pounds we're talking about. And and whatever and my steps are going to look and look different than the next person's steps. But what I'm feeling here today is that is that I got to clean it out. And I'm not a big grudge person, but I know I got a few. Everybody's got a few. And even learning to forgive my wife. And I know here's how I know I need to clean it out is when the little things my wife starts to do maybe start to bug. And then I know I got a beam in my eyeball because I'm getting upset or frustrated with a little speck in hers. You see what I'm saying? Okay, I gotta get, and I I gotta forgive, and I gotta clean up my own act. And um now I don't want this to sound like a big confession here. Um it's just my normal human approach to things, but you end with what I love the title of this chapter, the conclusion. The decision to forgive and the Christ-like invitation to be a peacemaker. And that sounds like kind of where we're at in the conversation, but can you give us some because man, that's that chapter title really invites my heart into it.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Yeah, I think the decision to forgive isn't isn't that I've I'm ready to forgive them, it's I'm ready to get rid of the burden of not forgiving. It's it's it's it's getting rid of the unforgiveness baggage more than it is offering forgiveness to the other person, I think. It's coming to that point where you say, I've carried this long enough. And uh and I think it's more compelling when you say, I want to be like the savior, I want to be free of this. He wants me to do that. So I'm ready to get rid of the baggage of unforgiveness. And I think when we reach that point, then that makes the decision to forgive so much easier. And and again, remember, it's not you. The Lord's gonna do something to you at some point. The moment will come, reaching out to shake the hand, making the phone call, writing the note, um, telling someone you're moving on, you're done. You know, you you do some act that shows your faith, dipping your toe into the Red Sea. And then the Lord will touch you and He will make it possible for this to go away. Now, when I say go away, I don't mean you'll never remember it. Uh, we remember our regrets, so partly so we can avoid having them happen to us again if there's some way to caution us to avoid it. But those regrets stay with us. Uh, it's just how it is. Everybody has them. Uh, Daniel Pink did a lot of study on this notion. I talk about it in the book a bit, this notion of regret. We all carry it and they'll never go away. I've heard someone once said that they their goal is to live a life without regrets. I'm like, well, good luck on that. Like you'll you'll be the only person on the face of the earth that's ever done that, other than probably the savior. Yeah, that's impossible. So it's just not gonna happen. So, so even when you forgive, now you have to work on maintaining forgiveness over time. Forgiveness isn't a single act, forgiveness is a process over time. And even though it's been lifted in that moment, it often returns to us from time to time where we get this tinge of, well, that happened, or you know, did we did I really let that go? That's normal. That happens to everybody, and you should expect that to happen to you. Not that it's gonna return and you have to go through the process again, but that you remind yourself, I forgave. And so here's what that means. And you continue to follow that path as a disciple of the savior. So forgiveness is a lifetime journey, and having a forgiving nature is what empowers us to just be free and have the ability to do all the things the savior would want us to do.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

So the the image that comes to my mind is uh hitting, you know, forgiving uh another person isn't like hitting a home run. Yeah, I hit it out of the park and I'm done with it. I'll never see that ball again.

SPEAKER_05 48:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

But maybe it's more like your surfer brother. That was it a surfer brother, yeah. Yeah, yeah, like it's more like a wave. Okay, here comes a wave again. That's right. And sometimes the waves are bigger than others, and then sometimes it's just a perfect calm. And then out of the blue, here comes that wave. And that's kind of the way life is. And but you know, when we to adopt this forgiving nature, this peacemaker attitude, I feel like it's gonna help us to walk ride those waves a little bit better.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

And you know, John, I I just have to say this that we have to we have to say that one of the most important people that you need to forgive is yourself. Absolutely. The the ability to forgive ourselves and understand what that means is implied in what the savior said, forgive all men and women. That includes yourself. We we have to be able to forgive ourselves for our mistakes and our wrongdoings in that that whole process.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

That's a great point. And for anybody out there who can't do it, it just like holds on to it, says, I can't forgive myself. Write it all down. I'm just coming up with this idea on the spot. Write it all down and take it to the savior in prayer and then go out back and bury it.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

I like it. Good. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Why can't you forgive yourself? Write it all down, take it to the savior because he offers to take it for you to carry that yoke, and our lives are all so filled with mistakes. We need the savior, and that's what it all boils down to. And this whole story I hear you talking about is we need Jesus Christ. Now, the last one is you you you have decision to forgive and a Christ-like invitation to be a pay peacemaker. And I think the two really go together is that, and if we don't forgive, it's it there's something in there. Maybe it's the micro poisons, maybe it's the extra 25 pounds that makes it harder to be a peacemaker. Do you see a connection in that? Or do you see different?

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Yeah, you know, our culture, our culture has justified retribution, uh getting revenge, you know, even when we talk about we're at war with someone or uh someone's attacked us and our are the US properties or something, uh we we speak of killing them and and uh as as a though it's normal. And um we've just we've just enculturated this notion of revenge in such a way that uh it drives us against each other. President Nelson issued the call initially, President Oakes reinvigorated it, the call to be a peacemaker. And that starts first in our homes with our families. Uh there's so many families that are estranged. In fact, the the research shows it's almost all families have been touched by estrangement, where children have gotten no contact with their parents, they won't talk to them anymore. Uh there's some conflict in the family with extended family. It's not unusual. That's normal. That that that happens to every every family. The idea of being a peacemaker is to find a path where we can forgive and bring people together to to do what? What the savior prayed for in John 17, to be one. As he is with the Father, as the Father is with him, so we would be with Christ. We would be one.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

I love that. And that's so true. I look at family, I look at my own family, family I grew up in, family I live in right now. There are times where if we don't we can we can cling to estrangement. And what I found is that it it takes one person. Now, maybe not always, but I feel like if one person says re is willing to step forward and say, I'm sorry, or I forgive, or and and I see that as kind of like an act like the savior. Like the savior is like, I step forward, I take the blame. The savior literally took the blame for all of it, and and sometimes he asks us to do that in a relationship. I'm sorry, let me take all the blame. You're right, I made a mistake, even when it's not justified, even though you know the other person made a mistake too, but there's something in adopting that Christ-like mentality of like, you're right, I made a mistake. Now I'm not accepting abuse, I'm not you're right. We we need we didn't even go into that, but that's just a given, hopefully. Like we're not accepting abuse here. We're talking about normal relationships where sometimes people just get feelings hurt, and especially in family, right? People get upset, people get their feelings hurt, they don't like your politics or your team or whatever. But just saying, I you know, I don't I apologize. And go ahead, what do you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 54:04

And let me just say that here's what I think is one of the biggest indicators that you've forgiven someone. That you've gotten there, that you've been able to find a path to getting to that place, and it's how you talk about them. It's what you say to others about them. And uh when you've when you've truly forgiven someone, you stop telling that story. And you stop having victimizing them by revealing their poor decisions, their poor judgment, their poor actions, and you speak about it differently. That's when I think you, it's a it's it's a great indicator that it's really been in your heart, you know, because it it's easy, it's it's easy to go through the motions on forgiveness because you you want to, you know, you're supposed to. So you're saying, well, I forgive them. Yeah, they're fair, I forgive them. But that they were such a jerk, but I forgive them. Um but I don't know why they keep acting like a jerk, but I want you to know I forgave them. Uh, you know, have you that's why I call it healing the wounded heart, because what we're really talking about is not just going through the motions, which is good. That that's a place to start. There's nothing wrong with that. But where we want to get to is actually healing the wounded heart. It's actually having our heart be healed in such a way that our our very outlook changes, and we are we are moving towards reconciliation. And you can't reconcile if you're still calling them a jerk. You're you have to be in a different place than that. And so your heart has actually been healed, and you have moved from where you are to where you know the savior wants you to be, and that manifests itself in the way you verbalize about the situation, about them.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Love it, brother. That is so good, so insightful. This has been an insightful, insightful and inspiring episode. Thank you so much for joining us. When does your book come out? And I'm guessing we find it on Amazon and such.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Yep, July 1st on Amazon. It'll be audio and digital in all the formats. And um I'm super excited about it hitting the market.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

Healing the Wounded Heart by Roger Connors. People, I'm uh I'm on the waiting list for that one. I am in need of forgiving. I know I need to clean out the microplastics and lose 25 pounds of spiritual baggage and clean up my soul. Not that I'm imperfect, but I am imperfect. Uh yes, yes, we all have things to work on. And this one really resonated with me. And I just want to get better at connecting with the savior, walking with him, and healing my heart. And thank you very much, Roger, for coming on today. Very inspiring. I look forward to checking out your book. For our listeners out there, thank you for joining us on this week's episode of Walking with the Savior podcast. And be sure to check out next week. And most of all, make sure you have a great walk with the savior this week. Have a great day, everybody.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

Your future is bright when you walk with Christ.