The Brief

Mediation vs. Court: How to Resolve Custody Battles Without a Judge

• Mike Khader • Season 2 • Episode 2

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Mediation offers faster, less expensive, and more empowering solutions than traditional court battles. Mac Pierre-Louis, Licensed Attorney, Mediator and Host of The Lawyers & Mediators International Podcast, reveals how families can resolve high-conflict parenting disputes, save time and money, and protect their children’s best interests.

Key Takeaways: 

  • Strategies to de-escalate high-conflict parenting communication
  • How technology, apps and AI are transforming family law and mediation
  • Expert tips for navigating divorce, custody and co-parenting 
  • Importance of communication, compromise, and documentation

Learn from real courtroom stories and meditation solutions to gain practical tips to prepare for your upcoming meditation.

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Mike

This is the brief. I'm sharing lessons from years in the courtroom representing parents and couples on custody battles, co-parenting, mental health, finances, and more. After 20 years as an attorney, I'm also bringing true law stories from the courtroom to empower you with solid and straightforward advice. I wanna help you become a better partner and parent and be here a time when you need it the most. I. Hello everyone, and thanks for joining this week's episode of The Brief with Mike Cater. And I want to tell you this week's guest I'm so excited for because not only is he a licensed lawyer and a mediator, he is on the forefront of how families and the world is operating. And I'm gonna let him talk to you about what he's been doing, what he's done, and also talk about his podcast towards the end of the show. So let's get into it. Without further ado, allow me to introduce someone that I was able to meet. Mac Pierre, Louis Mac. Welcome to the show.

Mac

Thank you so much Michael. Thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.

Mike

Thanks so much. So it's fun. You know we're both licensed attorneys, we're both litigators. we practice in different states and let people know where you practice.

Mac

Yes, yes. So I'm licensed to practice law in Texas and Florida, Texas first back in 2009, Florida in 2010. But most of my work is done in the Houston area in southeast Texas. I'm also. Credentialed mediator, do mainly family mediations in both Florida and Texas. And more and more these days. That's my passion, but I happy to be on the show.

Mike

And I know that you also have an office on the Southwest Florida, in Naples, correct?

Mac

Yes, yes, correct. South, well, well, Southwest Florida. The Naples. My cousin, who's an attorney down there, you know, lets me share her office. And so if people need to contact me, I'm down there as well.

Mike

Great, great Mac, as were all lawyers. Never did. I think when I was, I've been practicing for over 20 years now. 20 years ago, podcasts didn't even exist, but I would never think that I would get into podcasts or even be a family matrimonial lawyer. What inspired you to engage in mediation?

Mac

Sure, so. Having started out in the Attorney General child support division years ago in Texas, I saw the acrimony between parents. Okay. I was with the state, of course, but from that vantage point, I was always neutral. But I was also a prosecutor prosecuting basically child support cases and. By 2017, I fell in love with the idea of mediation because I realized I could do this family law work in a different way. I could help people reach, compromise, negotiate, and try to come to terms over their child themselves privately without having to have a third party, a judge make a decision. I guess I could take a step back even further. I was a former teacher before I went to law school. I was a teacher. I got a master's in education actually, and I taught elementary school and I remember I. I said I, I remember seeing my children and some of the issues they went through. Later when I became a family lawyer in the ags office, I realized the connection, oh, some of the issues my kids went through when I was a teacher were caused by some of the issues their parents are going through right now. So I definitely see the connection between children dysfunction and ultimately tracing it back to the root cause, being parental dysfunction, especially co parental dysfunction. Sometimes two people just don't know how to get along. And there's a reason they're separated or divorced and their kids are caught in the middle. So typical case, you got a mom going to the child support office and then the dad doesn't wanna pay, or the dad does wanna pay, but mom wants to let him have rights. So all these back and forth, back and forth, you see the patterns in this business. So again, by 2017, I said to myself, you know, there has to be a better way of doing this. There has to be another way of addressing these people's conflicts without having to throw them. Into the courtroom. So that's the genesis as to why I started gravitating toward mediation and conflict resolution as opposed to just pure raw courtroom, you know, litigation.

Mike

Great. You know, being from a classroom teacher, working for the attorney General's office, doing child support cases and now mediation. But while you're talking, you know, I'm a, I'm listening to what you're saying. I see it all the time. you know, from either coming from a broken home or going in a high conflict parental relationship, it is the children that suffer. Right. And many times I've, I've used in opening statements or, or in motion practice when I'm. Fighting over a custody case or regardless of the issue of that, there is no doubt that these parents love the subject child. However, their hate for each other Yeah. Is greater than the love is the contrast for the child. And ultimately it's the child that suffers when they're growing up. And high tension, high conflict parental relationship. So, good for you for recognizing that and putting your skills and experiences, you know, for the betterment, of our children. You were talking about the high conflict and the fist, uh, and the fist pumping. You know, when parents are in conflict. How can mediation play a role in that? And a conflict could be a custody case, a visitation, or child supportive financing. How can mediation play a role in that and what are the benefits as opposed to traditionally getting a lawyer and going to court?

Mac

Yeah, so the traditional route most people know, of course, is you have a problem, a legal problem, and then it involves a family, you know, case you. Go on Google, you find a lawyer and you start the litigation process, or you go to the child support office local to you, and you start that process. And many times those are the primary two ways people start, you know, going down the line of getting a custody order. However, it seems to me that people are stuck in that. Paradigm, that way of doing things, that tradition, because that's what we've always been taught. That's what TV shows, that's what the billboards show. That's what we know from you, the stories that friends tell us. But people should understand their. Are alternatives. Okay. And one of them is called a DR Alternative dispute resolution. That's what it stands for. And so the alternative, you know, method is one where parties get to take some control over their conflict and over their case. So that will be, I guess, the first benefit, okay. Of mediation. And that is you start. Getting back into the, to the driver's seat instead of relinquishing that kind of agency and control to a third party, a judge. Now, judges are fact finders. They're there for a reason and sometimes people don't get along. And sometimes it's family violence where we need a judge to step in and, uh, make some decisions. But most of the time. It boils down simply to conflict between two individuals. I've always said that two people may love each other and then they grow apart and they start having conflict. But there's never a rule book on how to deal with the co-parenting aspect. So I have graceful folks, you know, who don't know how to do it right. A lot of times it wasn't modeled for them. They never learned the proper strategies on deescalation. They never learned how to speak, you know, um, not just with the words, but also peril language, you mean the body language? There's so, there are so many things that can escalate, you know, tension and create controversies that are not necessary if people simply had the skills well. Because many people don't, people like me, you know, come into the mix. And so our goal as mediators is to try to help folks, you know, see things in a different way. We call this reframing and mediation. And so I might use some mediation lingo, you know, during our conversation, but there's actually like the. Art and science to all of this. How do you get folks to see things differently? How do you get folks to not just, um, look at things strictly from a defensive position? Well, I have my position. I gotta defend it. Some people stand on principle. I gotta defend my principle. Well, how do you start looking at it? From an interest based perspective, okay, what's your interest and what's your interest? And how do we get these folks to align their interests to see what is mutually beneficial to them? So I never knew this whole world. Of negotiation and diplomacy and configurations existed until I started actually taking classes and learning. Oh, that's how, and honestly, Michael, what it does for you personally is it starts making you realize that we all have this problem of handling conflict badly. As a mediator, it humbles you and it makes you realize, man, how many relationships have I messed up because I didn't know how to talk to people in my role. Now, my goal is very simple. It's just to help people get to that point. Use the skills that I've learned to help move this toward, um, resolution, conflict resolution instead of the. Division. So anyway, that's one approach that's beneficial, which is it gives you agency. Lots of other ones we can talk about, but the obvious ones are cost. Obviously and the time mediation can last hours, whereas court can last months, mediation can last hundreds or thousands of dollars, whereas court can last tens of thousands. So there are lots of benefits and we can go through them, you know, a little bit further if you'd like.

Mike

I definitely agree with the top two, where it's quicker and it's cheaper. I don't think anyone will dispute that. But just unpacking on what you said. Many times when I'm in the courtroom and there's, you know, high conflict parenting and, and, and they're disagreeing. Sometimes they're disagreeing and neither party is necessarily wrong. Yeah, it's more a parenting style and that's probably one of the most difficult type of cases to try to negotiate when. You are telling someone you're not wrong in what you feel or you're not wrong in your belief or your values. However, and same thing, even with my own clients, right? Listen, I hear you. You're not wrong. I hear, you know, your values, your beliefs, your opinions about whatever the issue is, but neither is the other side. And I always just take an next approach and say. Listen, when this case is over, you're not gonna see me anymore. You're not gonna be in the courtroom anymore. Do you want three strangers, two lawyers? A judge to decide this? Correct. Or do you want to try to work it out and you give in a little bit?

Mac

Yeah.

Mike

I do see an avenue in mediation that's correct, where neither party necessarily. Sometime you do have parties that are egregious and say things and do things, but many times there's a. There's parents that are just high conflict, they're both necessarily not wrong, but they just can't agree on an issue, and I do see an avenue for mediation to resolve those issues. So, good for

Mac

you. Yeah. Let me, let me speak to that a little bit about the concept of both parents are not wrong. So, perfect example. Recently I did a um, I have a series on my website, basically called Dear Instant Mediator. So the idea is, dear Instant Mediator. I'm a mom. I have a co-parenting schedule with a dad, and he's supposed to come, you know, 6:00 PM Friday night to get the child regular routine right? However, dad showed up and he didn't bring a car seat and he asked to use mine. Well, I think it's irresponsible that he doesn't have a car seat. He should have bought his own, and so I told him no. So he threatened to call the police, you know, on me, because I'm not surrendering the child as like I'm supposed to. So the question becomes, whose fault is it or who's wrong? Who's right? So this is one of those things in, in fact, I think I titled that example as they're both wrong and right at the same time. Okay. And this one, uh, I did a little video of it, put it on TikTok, and I got a lot of comments and, and people were taking sides, right? Team dad or team mom. I think most people agree with Mom, honestly, but that example goes to show that even in something as simple as that, a car seat, there's concerns that are valid on both sides. You got mom who's like, look, that needs to be responsible. It's a safety issue, and I need this car seat for myself. He needs to get his own. On dad's side, maybe he has financial reasons why he couldn't get the car seat. Maybe he wasn't asking much, but to just share it. Maybe this one time he'll bring it right back, and isn't the bigger point in all of this to let the child spend time with dad. Do we really need to let the car seat get in the middle of it? I mean, he's not trying to hurt anybody. In fact, it's for the kids' benefit to use it this one time. So mom's position's going to be like, well, I'm afraid he's gonna go sue me. And dad's position is like, well, Mons so unreasonable is so she cannot co-parent. This is unreasonable. So we as mediators get called into these kind of conflicts all the time where it's not black and white. There are maybe valid points on both sides. But do these two parents really want a third party to make the decision for them? Is there a way? And so by the end of the five minute little video, I was suggesting some ways, some ways out perhaps that would research some organization that can help him buy a lower cost. Car seat. Perhaps mom will give dad makeup time because he missed that day. Perhaps they will have a scheduling calendar where they will share that car seat. There are different ways, you know, to resolve a conflict. We just gotta think of it and using our, you know. Prefrontal cortex, you know that partner brain that is reasonable and rational and helps us problem solve. Think of things. Yeah, exactly. Not just that mammalian brain that we all have, which is the fight or flight defending oppositions and escalating tensions. And one thing you said that when you gave the example of when you talk to your clients, you might tell them, Hey, you're not wrong, but here's so. That's a big, big, big point about validation. People, human beings want their voice and their words and their positions to be validated, and so when you start off with, Hey, listen, I hear you. You have a valid point that that right there, that small little point, can go such a long ways towards starting everyone on the right foot. But when people feel attacked from the very beginning that what they're saying is untrue. A delusion or a lie, people are obviously going into it personally and they're going to react. So that reaction then escalates things to the point where you're like, what just happened?

Mike

It does. And, and you, you, you've said a lot, your car seat story. I had a a case similar, and in this one I represented the custodial parent. And I always take approach no matter who is the custodial parent, the mom or dad, I always say while the child lives with them and because the child lives with them, they have a higher burden. They have to be the bigger adult. And a situation like that where, uh, and, and I'm, I'm, I'm bringing back how, what my approach was where dad, who normally had a car seat, switched cars for some reason, he didn't have his normal car, which had the car seat in there. And so he goes to pick up the child. There's no car seat. Mom who has a child said, Hey, where's the car seat? Yeah. And that explained, eh, you know, I'm not driving my car today. I think it was in the repair shop, or was a rental. I forget what the reason was. Yeah, e exactly. It was in my notes probably somewhere. But at the end of the day, she didn't wanna lend her car seat. And just because obviously, you know, there's tension between the parents. Sure. She didn't wanna do a favor, for lack of a better word. And I actually, I, when I speak to my clients and I, I have that rapport with them. I call it, this is the come to Jesus moment. Yep. While technically he's in violation, he should have a car seat. Right. No one's gonna dispute that. You're the custodial parents. You could have deescalated it in a very quick end. Five minute A I'm gonna do this this time. Next time this happens, I'm gonna make us think about it. And ironically, she didn't do that. And I said, and watch, next time we're in court, the father's attorney is gonna point to not why he didn't have a car. It's gonna come to look. She had a car seat, could have given it, but intentionally blocked access. Yeah. And I called it, we go to court two weeks later and the judge says, you know, to the dad, you know, you should have had one shame on you. Correct. But he ripped into the mother.

Mac

Yep.

Mike

For the simple reason you had a car seat that he was willing to. It's all cut out, but this goes more of your behavior and the friction. And I remember that with what you're mentioning and, and I guess the takeaway for anyone that's listening, either your listeners or ours, is when you're the custodial parent, it's not about power. I always say somebody sometimes, and it sounds condescending, somebody has to be the adult. Somebody has to sometimes bite their tongue. Do the right thing, put the child first. And that's a great example. So when you were talking, I was bringing back to the example and I represented the parent Uhhuh. That, and I obviously, I went in there and I defended the action, but I just knew it was a loser going in and you know, and I said, judge, it was a safety issue and everything that I was prepared for got shot down. And I told her after court. Listen, you start doing this, this is how it's gonna go. And eventually, you know, the case resolved and it settled where a case started. High, high friction and stuff. So, you know, it, it's, these issues happen all the time, be it the holidays or car seats or, or you know, summer vacations or stuff. So I'm, I'm glad you shared that example. Me.

Mac

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike

Many mediators aren't lawyers. Do you find having your legal skills and courtroom skills beneficial during mediation, or do you feel that it takes people back that he's not a mediator, he's a lawyer.

Mac

Yeah, good question. So there are mediators who are not lawyers and there are lawyer mediators, but whether or not you're a lawyer and a mediator, you can't be both at the same time. Right. That's the most important thing. Ethically, you can only be one at a time, and so I sometimes get calls from folks who wanna hire me as a mediator and then. Others call because they want me as an attorney, and sometimes they don't know which one because they see me advertise both in different settings. And so I'll explain to them, Hey, this is what I would do as a mediator, but the other side has to agree to come to me voluntarily. I can go chase'em down and this is what I can do if I'm your lawyer. However, if I want to become your mediator. That's it. I'm not gonna be able to use what I heard from the other side against them. My job is done. I can either be a neutral or I can be an advocate, not both. And so being. Uh, mediator who is an attorney. I think it does give me some special benefits where I've seen the ins and outs of conflict in the courthouse and what judges typically tend to do. Okay. It's almost like if you are a former judge and now you are a mediator, you have that benefit as well. You have that hindsight, that history, that experience, and you're able to tell people, well, can't give you legal advice, but here's what I've seen. And a lot of times it helps people. Have some context. And so I think we are able, as a lawyer mediator, we're able to help people have reality checks in a very powerful way before they have to go into the real reality of the courtroom. So for example, if two parties are in front of me as a mediator and they're making their arguments and let, let's say they're in caucus rooms, okay? They're separate and they're. The reasons that they think it should go to court. As a lawyer, I can kind of assess it and, and tell them whether I think that, you know, their evidence, you know, might be strong enough in court. So you can have that tough conversation with folks and, and you're giving them a reality check so that they don't have to necessarily go take the risk.'cause a lot of people just wanna go to court and fight, but. Usually it's their first time going through this experience. So they haven't had, they don't know what court actually is. They don't understand that there are rules of court. You don't just go in there and say whatever you want. There's rules of evidence. You don't just go show the court whatever you want. I mean, there's structure. You don't get to sit there and pontificate for an hour or He did this, she did that. No, it's, yes, sir. No ma'am. Like there's questions. You can be cross examined. You can be torn apart. Okay. You can have evidence that it's never gonna be admitted. So when people finally understand, okay, that's how court is. Let me try to make a deal. Okay. So that's one of the benefits, you know, that I think I have as being a lawyer video.

Mike

That is great. You know, and you mentioned about evidence. Yep. You know, many time when you're dealing with the parents, you know, and it's usually text message, email, or WhatsApp, or. And very rare is there outside witnesses. It's usually the phone call. Yeah. The two, you know, at the pickup or drop off. And I always find it's what's key when it comes to evidence is your documentation, your timeline. Because there's rare that people are there when there's a dispute or an altercation. So who has the back record keeping? Who has a recollection? And the key here is credibility. Credibility is important. What I tell people is, listen, I could poke a couple of holes in two or three things. Then I put a doubt in all the other things.

Mac

Correct.

Mike

And you mentioned something, the rules of evidence are very important. Record keeping and, and and screenshotting authentication.

Mac

Yep.

Mike

Yep. And documenting. One of the hardest things that I always find is when I get a screenshot of a text message with no other content,

Mac

you see that,

Mike

you know, and they're like, but look, is there name? And I said. How do we know that that's not gonna be good? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, this actually example leads perfect to our next, you know, where I wanted to go to was, you know, the technology, and I gotta tell you, my biggest competition now aren't the lawyers in this building or the lawyers next to the courthouse. My biggest competition right now is AI and just with the expansion of technology and AI and particularly, you know, free ai. Everything that's going on. You know, like, you know, Google has an AI operation. Microsoft has an ai, obviously Elon Musk has this and there's every, there's on the app store now. So pretty much anyone that has an internet connection has access to some AI platform. What difficulties, if any, or, or challenges, that's probably the better word, do you find with AI and online mediation and technology and mediation?

Mac

Yes. So I was in Chicago back in April, have been March. I was at the, um, legal tech Summit that happens every year. Um, the a BA tech show and that's where lawyers from all over, all over the world really, but mainly in the US. Go and congregate to talk about technology. And so that's where we showcase all the latest and greatest. And so there was a big push, you know, about what's going on in ai so everyone knows that it's something that's booming and a allow lawyers feel a little, I guess, unnecessarily panicky about where artificial intelligence is taking us. So in some of the Facebook groups I'm in with other attorneys, you can hear the consternation. We're always talking about clients who are coming in and bringing us stuff that chat, GPT gave them. And sometimes lawyers feel threatened or they think that this is, uh, making our job difficult. Okay. Because you have this super machine, this LLM, that's able to give. Potential clients, a lot of information, but then we, with our brain and our law licenses are supposed to answer questions. And so what I've discovered is this. This is not gonna stop for my colleagues, clients or potential clients are going to use ai. There's no stopping that. But guess what, we can too. So to a degree that we can, we can also take advantage of the technology, but also we have to give our potential clients a reality check about, Hey, you might find this on ai. You might Google this stuff and then go to Gemini, or Crock or open ai. But at the end of the day, the judge, a human being, is the one who's make the decision. And so they might feel one way about how you got there, but at the end of the day, they're going to look at the, at the child's best interest. And so you still gotta trust your lawyer. You know, is a human is gonna make the decision is a human is gonna advocate. The tools are great for information gathering. By the end of the day, you have to sift it through the humans. That's until the rules change. But for now, that's how it is. Okay? We, they need us, and the courts need us because, you know, it's a human, human-centric platform. But when it comes to mediation, mediation. A successful one never gets to a judge. And so however we get to a good resolution, um, whether it's just human to human or we get the assistance of AI tools, then it doesn't matter. However, we get there, we get there. So that's why I'm a big proponent of actually using AI tools. You can literally put into chat DPTA conflict, a scenario, and it'll give you potential outcomes and to a degree, parties and a conflict sometimes will trust the AI generated solutions. Then there might a human because they might feel like, well, the AI is completely neutral. Because it didn't take anybody, anybody and put into consideration that was biased. But that's not true, by the way. Because as you might have seen recently with Elon Musk, grok, grok went crazy. It was starting to hallucinate and saying crazy stuff. So there's dangers that are out there. Definitely.

Mike

I definitely agree and, and don't think you just in mediation, you know, I've had clients in, in commercial transaction and, and family and matrimonial where they come in and. They said, well, you know, I went on chat. GDTI give you two examples where one time it worked, you know, uh, the parent were trying to work out an access schedule and it wasn't your traditional every other weekend type of thing. Correct. And alternate holiday, they had like, you know, funky schedules and, and it was like midweek. So what the mother did, she inputted everything into chat and just gave, and they said, listen, what's a schedule that could work? Yep. And printed out. And I said, Hey, this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This, this could work. I think this is a great starting point. Yeah. Starting point.

Mac

Exactly.

Mike

And what we did, actually, I had to add more issues to it, but it was, so, it was something that was, you know, a client initiative and we used it as a framework and we tend to take things out and, and put, so it was a good example. Yeah. And I remember on one, uh, on a, a case where we're going for a hearing on a visitation Right case. The client came in. Well, here's the questions I want you to ask. Oh, and again, it's about being heard and making sure that the client is part of the process. Correct. And I was like, let me get this. You got this from ai. I didn't know what you know. And I was like, this is just no good. These are not accurate. And I tell them, the psychology of AI is to please the user.

Mac

Yeah,

Mike

so AI is designed to tell you what you want to hear, and that's inherently what leads to wrong information or bad information or inaccurate. And I think that our, let's just need to read that AI is a service that's designed. You're never gonna hear AI say, I don't know. You know, they might tell you I'm unable, get that information. But when it's able to get information, it's going to give you something that necessarily may not be accurate. And in that situation, I was like. These are questions you can't ask. They're irrelevant. They're not part of the case, you know? Correct. And, and we spent about an hour talking about why I can't use AI questions that were irrelevant leading, not part of the case. So, you know, it does a disservice many times. So the best way that I tide approach AI and tell clients it's a great starting point. Correct. It's a great place to explore ideas. But I wouldn't rely on it solely because whatever it tells you, you have to verify it. Also, I just remember how when the internet and and email started, you know, over 25 years ago.

Mac

Good analogy. Yep.

Mike

And how it evolves. And the FCC is still trying to figure out liability and how to govern the internet. I think that AI is in that new space. Where's their liability? Where's their accountability? And things along those lines. And it's gonna be trial and error. There was a recent case, a big New York City law firm created a breach

Mac

using, yep.

Mike

And it gave wrong cases, wrong citations, and they were censured by the court. So you know, that could be a whistle. We do that a

Mac

lot

Mike

for a lawyer. Great. As a starting point, it's great for research, it's great for ideas, but you know, bad idea to rely on it exclusively.

Mac

Absolutely.

Mike

Do you ever recommend other apps such as Our Family Wizard or Talking Parent for high Conflict parents? You know what? What's your take on those type of parenting apps?

Mac

Yeah, actually on the alumni podcast, which I host, we've actually had the Our Family Wizard spokesperson on to talk about it. He's been on it twice I think. I was trying to get the talking parents.com folks on, I haven't gotten them. There's a third one we use called app close.com, and so these apps are great for helping people communicate better, right? Again, like I said before, there, there's no rule book on how you co-parent effectively, because people a lot of times don't have the model and or the model that they did have was dysfunction because they saw their parents do it, you know, really badly. They never thought they would find themselves in this relationship over their child, and so. Anything we can do to help the co co communication the better these apps stop, he said, she said it stops people from cursing each other out and saying some really bad disparaging things because people know that this could be going to a court one day. A judge might see this transcript and this communication, so there's lots of benefits. Also, the A Family Wizard ones have built in safety features. That helps make sure that you're not being stalked or, and it, it's, it's more difficult for people to manipulate the conversations. Okay.

Mike

I agree with you. Uh, I feel that our Family Wizard is probably, you know, the, the two that I constantly, uh, use our Family Wizard or talking parent. Yeah. And here's a tip for any listener. Our Family Wizard will give you one year free if you have a financial hardship. So that's a tip for listeners out there. And pretty much all you have to do is just ask. You get the first year free and it just avoids a lot of screenshots. And here's what I tell my clients. It's a private conversation with you and the other parent. Yeah. But always assume if you go to court

Mac

Yeah.

Mike

One day, one day they're gonna be able to read the entire conversation. Yeah. So that keeps both sides on good behavior.

Mac

Yeah. And, and you know, there are of course some parents who are just extra special where. I've seen it like, dude, you're one off Hamid Wizard, and that parent just lays into the other one. It's almost like they want the billboard. In other words, if you have a really, really difficult parent, they may just be that way and nothing's gonna stop them unless the court takes a stand.

Mike

There was a case where the father is, is, is go on our family wizards. Yes.

Mac

Openly.

Mike

You know, and, and just like, and actually they star out the bad language. Yes,

Mac

yes.

Mike

I don't give, you know, that this is show it to the, you know, to, to the ing judge. We go to the trial. Exactly. I purposely had her read it that you, there you go. I want the judge to hear and, and, and, and I say sometimes certain. Certain parents, they can't help themselves.

Mac

Yeah.

Mike

I think just being the adult and tempered during uh, litigation is very helpful. My, you know, just something that I ask for all my guests. Yep. What's one advice or one tip you could give to a listener that's either thinking about going to mediation or has a mediation plan? What's something you could tell'em to help'em prepare for it and that way they could find it? Successful and get the biggest benefit out of there.

Mac

Yeah, I, I guess, I mean, there's lots of things I could say, but one thing would be don't start with the attitude that this is not gonna work. So many people go to mediation with this belief that they know the other side and they know the other side is so unreasonable that we're wasting our time. You wouldn't believe how many cases start that way in the first two minutes of the mediation session and then we end up with an agreement anyway. And a lot of times it's because people didn't know. We don't know. We don't know. You don't know what the other. Side might be considering until the other side has considered all options, including considering all the downsides of, you know, standing on certain positions. So give mediation a chance, like literally, it might save you a whole lot of time and money and headaches in court, but go with an open mind that. Can actually work and you'd, you'd be surprised. There's a reason why they say most mediations are successful. I would say at least 75%. Most mediators you speak to ask them, they may not keep the settlement rate. Uh, some, some mediators are more nerdy than others and they might actually keep a spreadsheet. I kind of do, but honestly. Most mediations that I do and, and it's not to toot my own horn, but if you ask most mediators, they will tell you that. Yeah, most of the time people who come, they walk away with a settlement agreement. It doesn't mean they're both going to like the results completely, but that's one thing we always say that, you know, it was good mediation when both sides walk away feeling to a degree that they didn't get completely everything they want. I would add to that, you know, it was a really good mediation if both sides walk away knowing that they didn't get everything that they want when they walked in. But they realized at the end that it was the best outcome that could have come out from, you know, given, you know, the facts without having to resort in court or two court.

Mike

So folks, I just want, you know, there's a lot of great takeaways here from here. One, you know, mediation, it's quicker. Two, it's cheaper. Three, our Family Wizard or any other Talking parent, you know, we're not advertising our Family Wizard, but just have personal experience with it. Talking app and there's others use it. And a tip that I gave that if you just ask for it at uh, the email, they'll give it to you for free. And number four, if you're looking at mediation or preparing for it, approach it with an open mind. Be prepared to compromise. Max, these are great tips that you gave. So how does somebody find you? You mentioned your podcast. Yeah. You mentioned your website. Tell our listeners, how do they reach you? How do they find you? How do they follow you?

Mac

Sure. So I use Mac PLE for everything, just my name and if you just put that into Google, you get to my website map period.com on x and TikTok on Instagram. So that's the easiest way just at Mac PLE, but also, um, for the last five years. But really the channel's been around since 2015, I believe. I have a YouTube channel called Lawyers Mediators International Podcast. Show and podcast. And so it's basically where I talk everything you know about family law, but also, um, interview different guests. And so you of course are always invited to come on yourself. Thank you.

Mike

I, I appreciate I'll take you up on that. We'll, we'll, we'll definitely have.

Mac

Yes, we talk technology, legal tech, we talk conflict resolution, international, everything, and everything that deals with law or mediation is up for debate in conversation and it's for educational purposes only so that folks can learn something and then see how they can apply it to their own lives. And so it's never legal advice of course, but that's the best way to, you know, stay on top of. Of things. It's uh, lmi podcast.com. It's the main website for the podcast, but YouTube channel. But just put my name and then it'll come up.

Mike

You heard that folks follow him. Mac Pierre Louis follow his content. He has a A breath of information. Okay, folks, that's a wrap once again. Mac, thank you so much for taking time outta your schedule and sharing your thoughts and giving valuable insight, tips and your perspective on the world of mediation and the ethical concerns. Me, the listeners, we appreciate you and we hope we could have you back again in the future.

Mac

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Mike

Take care folks, and be in tuned for our next week's episode. Thanks for listening. This is Mike Catter, and I'll help you and your family navigate custody disputes or divorce matters with your best interest First, you can book a free consultation with me and learn more by follow me on Instagram at might j Cater. I've also included a link in today's show notes. Tune in for our next episode of the brief coming next week.

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Mike Khader

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