Church Review Podcast
At the church review podcast we explore the diverse world of faith and community through engaging reviews of churches and demonitations. Each episode features insightful discussions, personal experiences, and helping listeners find a spiritual home that resonates with their beliefs and values.
Church Review Podcast
Rod of Iron Ministries: Guns, Faith, and Politics
What happens when faith, firearms, and politics intersect in the pews? Join us as we explore the astonishing practices of the Rod of Iron Ministries, a church led by Pastor Sean Moon that uniquely incorporates firearms into their worship services, inspired by their interpretation of Revelation 19:15. Discover the church's roots in the Unification Church founded by Reverend Sun Myung Moon and the family tensions that birthed this controversial offshoot.
Welcome back to the Church Review Podcast. It's good to be back. I am your host, jesse Graham. I'm joined with my co-host, sam Charles, and we've got an interesting episode ahead. Some say we have a blast of an episode. Yep, that's right. We certainly do. We are looking at the Rod of Eye Ministries, known as the Sanctuary Church, but most of us would know them as a gun-toting freedom-fighting church in the United States and look forward to the episode. So, if you tuned in, thank you for listening and we hope we can provide here at the Church Review Podcast. Sam Jesse, welcome again to the podcast. Glad to have you on.
Speaker 2:Thanks, brother, good to be here. And look, this is a. We're looking at a sort of it's almost like a. They call this a Rod of Iron Ministries because it is a church, but they also they cover lots of different kind of facets relating to culture and that kind of thing today, don't they? You know, I think we're already kind of seeing a theme, actually, man, with some of these churches where there seems to be sort of a bit of family dysfunction, a bit of disunity. You know, people don't seem to be getting along. I've been reading Jane Eyre lately, actually, jane Eyre.
Speaker 1:Jane.
Speaker 2:Eyre, yeah, a bit of a classic, but yeah, there's a lot of family dysfunction in this church. We're looking at today, so looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely. Just quickly a shout out to one of the followers who have been listening into the podcast who actually mentioned the episode we did on snakebiting that first episode I believe it was. He actually made a point there that there are Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian snakebiting churches. So I just thought I'd mention that. Didn't grab his name, but I'll definitely reply to him and give him a heads up and a thank you. But I've actually made a Google review. You can actually see it on any of the churches we covered, hashtag free the snakes.
Speaker 2:I feel like we almost have to review it again, don't we? There's Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian. It sort of makes it a bit more clear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that would be handy, no doubt. But moving on, rod of Iron Ministries, founded by Pastor Sean Moon, and you mentioned, there's some family divide going here. Son of Reverend Sun Myung Moon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Sun Myung Moon. As you mentioned, he established the Unification Church in Seoul in South Korea in 1954. He died in 2012,. So he was at the helm for quite a few years. So he was at the helm for quite a few years, yes, but then, sort of about a year after he died, his son and his wife had a dispute and eventually that led to the son, sean Moon, establishing the Unification Church, or should I say, an offshoot of the Unification Church, called the World Peace and Unification Sanctuary Church. Yeah, that's a mouthful.
Speaker 2:And not only did they have a bit of a. You know, he established his own church in the US as opposed to South Korea. Right, he went on to state that his mother is the whore of Babylon, as seen in Revelation 17. So yeah, I don't think they were sending each other Christmas cards or anything.
Speaker 1:No no.
Speaker 2:Not a happy Christmas at the Moons anyway.
Speaker 1:No, no doubt about it. Wow, that's news to me. Yeah, so I think it was founded 2017, I believe by Sean Moon over there in the United States. I think he's actually got a degree at Harvard, united States. I think he's actually got a degree at Harvard, so I believe that his father wanted him to be the heir of the Unification Church of the Moonies is commonly known nickname quotations Moonies but obviously they're doing their own thing now, pastor Sean Moon and his wife. They are headquartered, I believe, in Pennsylvania, but that might be moving. I'm hearing news that might be moving to Waco, texas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they've got some property in Tennessee as well, so yeah, yeah, waco Texas just has a history, so I'm just pointing that out everyone. There's a pattern showing here. Now they're commonly well-known, I guess, and that's not only the media attention, but they're well-known for a church that actually interprets a certain passage of Scripture, that's Revelation 19.15, the rod of iron, to mean well as weapons, as guns. So they're quite a heavy on gun church. They worship, they practice, they do their whole service with guns and there is a strong sort of Christian self-defense I don't know if you want to call it ethics that's involved here and I think that's what makes them distinctively unique from a lot of other churches is that they do, you know, they're not afraid to show their guns, but also in worship, in service, actually have those guns with them everywhere they go. So that makes that distinct, yeah, that makes that very distinct from a lot of mainstream churches. Now the Revelation 191515 passage. Are you aware of the passage?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's another one you're talking about, and it's quoted earlier on in Revelation as well. Revelation, chapter 2, verse 27. So he ruled them with an iron scepter. He would dash them to pieces like pottery. It's actually quoted from the Old Testament. It's from Psalm 2, verse 9, that they're, uh, referring to but yeah again man, similar to the snake biting churches where they've kind of they've honed in on one verse specifically without considering the whole of biblical testimony.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, maybe a bit to unpack there, but yeah well, if it's a revelation 1915, I believe that's a book that's has a high use of apocalyptic genre. Yes, so you're going to get a lot of symbolism. You're going to get a lot of allegories used, metaphors, no doubt, but if we're talking about the rod of iron, it seems like Pastor Sean Moon has interpreted that to mean a weapon of some sort, and in this case, ar-15 seems to be the choice.
Speaker 2:There's a particular emphasis on guns, isn't there?
Speaker 1:yeah, right undoubtedly um, and so, yeah, I, I guess they're you know, and not not even looking at uh sort of the context, because, you know, if we're looking at the apostle john, I believe, is the author here writing, writing revelation here. I don't think he has, I don't think he has the AR-15 in mind here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I certainly don't think that was what he originally intended. Right, right.
Speaker 1:I mean we could substitute it for a spear. Is that what he's talking here? But even then I'd be treading very carefully when we're looking at Revelation to extrapolate doctrine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it'd be interesting to chat to Moon how in his exegesis he came to that conclusion, because he's obviously some kind of he's a pastor. I don't know in terms of accreditation or whatever, but obviously you know that's how he's interpreted that passage and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So just a little backdrop. Then, going into some of the core beliefs, A lot of what the Rod of Iron Ministries and I guess, the Sanctuary Church would believe would be a crossover to the Moonies, the Unification Church you mentioned earlier in the podcast, and so a lot of those beliefs would be the divine principle, which is sort of this foundational teaching of the Mooney Church. It's kind of like an interpretation of scripture. Another core belief would be the emphasis on God's characteristics being feminine and masculine. So there's that dualism there.
Speaker 1:One which I kind of am a little bit suspicious on is their interpretation of the four. Are you aware of how they interpret the four? I'm not. No, so the mainstream Christian argument is that it's caused by disobedience to God's word, and I think unanimously across the Christian spectrum here we would agree. There they interpret it to mean have a sexual fall. So it somewhat strays away from the traditional Christian worldview in that sense, which is quite interesting if you're looking at it like that, which is quite interesting if you're looking at it like that. And so the way to go about reconciling us back to God or in this way, reconciling humanity back to its true condition, which was perfect in the garden is through these marriage and blessing ceremonies that they do.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know the one where they. That's how they tie in. Yeah, I had been looking at his marriage and blessing ceremonies and I was like, interesting, but yeah, that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, pertaining to the doctrine of humanity. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that kind of offsets. Your inherited sin is by getting married and usually you're matched by the church without any prior contact with the other. So does that mean in a sense, that they diminish the significance of original sin. I don't know where they would stand on the adoption of original sin. I would think they would have a concept of original sin of sorts, with more emphasis on the falling kind of sexually into sin.
Speaker 1:But marriage becomes the vehicle by which that is fixed Right. Marriage becomes the vehicle by which that is fixed Right, not, you know, the atonement, not the Jesus you know being that sort of mechanism, and it flows into this. Next core belief here that I've got is that, because it's a restorationist faith, the Unification Church and you know, apologies, I'm just bringing some context here because you know we could do a separate episode on the Moonies altogether, but it's just getting some layers here because it's potentially what you know, pastor Sean Moon and a lot of his churches, a lot of his church, actually believes here, but it's a restorationist church. They see Christ as his work on the cross as unfinished, and so therefore, the Messiah, the current Messiah, is the head of the church, which is Son Myung Moon Try not to butcher that name and so he essentially is the Messiah present day, and so through him completing the work that Jesus failed on the cross, there is a sense of universal salvation, which is another core belief, and that way is made through marriage.
Speaker 1:Anyway, long-winded all that, to say that potentially this is what Pastor Sean Moon at the Rod of Iron Ministries may believe. Any thoughts on that, sam Well?
Speaker 2:slightly concerning, actually, to be honest, Some of those beliefs you just outlined there, particularly, you know. I mean the stuff about him being some kind of messianic figure. I had read up about that. I mean, that's concerning in and of itself, right, but I hadn't heard about the universal salvation stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's always a bit alarming as well. Yeah, from a doctrinal point of view, yeah, that's right. That would be my thoughts mainly. I mean, I don't know, man, when I was looking into this Rod of Iron ministry, I was looking into this rot of iron ministry. I seem to get really caught up in their kind of a political affiliation as much as anything. I didn't go into their doctrine a lot just because I want to cover both, so I'm going to segue into that now.
Speaker 1:Um, so that's just a bit of backdrop on some of the core beliefs that they may, uh, hold to, but again, it's slippery because you're dealing with a an isolated well, you know, somewhat isolated community, so it's hard to get a real grasp of what they actually believe. So it's really hard Because I went on the website here there's nothing about really about their core beliefs. However, they have so much about the Second Amendment, the right to defend oneself, property, etc. Basically the constitution. There is even an interpretation on the website there of, or maybe a petition of, a new constitution of sorts. Right? So when you talk about political affiliation, yeah, you're talking about conservative right-wing, potentially extreme right-wing, but nevertheless you're looking at a faith here. You're looking at a church which calls Christians to take up arms and defend themselves, and I don't you're tying politics with religion. At this point, you're tying faith with politics, which may be a slippery slope.
Speaker 2:I think as well, there seems to be a focus on this future kingdom of God on earth, and maybe that's why they're not so concerned with referring to a statement of faith on their website or kind of their doctrinal issues, because they're wanting to supersede that spreading the gospel for bringing the kingdom on earth in a political sense, not just merely through sharing and through gospel witness, but rather through some kind of political means, which is interesting when you consider Jesus's actions in the Gospels. He seemed to continually want to steer away from any kind of political affiliation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you look at the perfect scripture there, john 18, 36,. My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. Which is kind of interesting, because you see the it seems like a contradiction here, because you see a scripture that Pastor Sean Moon takes Revelation, but then you see other points of scripture where it seems like Jesus is not steering in that direction. He's appealing for a higher a kingdom. That is not, a kingdom that is otherly, you know, not worldly A kingdom where its ethics are different than our ethics. You know we talk about, you know, second Amendment. We talk about gun rights. We're talking about protection. Well, we're talking about a kingdom that has totally different ethics from that. You know what I mean different ethics from that. You know what I mean. To stake your faith in a worldly ethics or a worldly even constitution may be a bridge too far.
Speaker 2:I think it is, and as well. It sort of begs the question why are they so fixated on it? Because, like you said, we've got numerous passages in Scripture where Jesus says he who lives with a sword will die by the sword.
Speaker 2:Render unto Caesar what he seizes. There's a distinction there, and it seems to be. There's a certain call to nonviolence. Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. There doesn't seem to be. You know they're wanting to advocate, yeah, their Second Amendment rights, their right to bear arms, their right to partake in this kind of violence, which seems antithetical to scriptural witness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, and Christ commands, if you take the broader scripture, you know, if you take, if you look out, zoom out a bit, you'll see, as you mentioned, scriptures that seem to offset.
Speaker 2:And again, if you're taking Revelation, then… and this is where I think there may be an exception that Moon and I don't know Men of Zilch, I guess would advocate that they can, whether there is kind of condoned violence or defense of their own rights or whatever. In a sense, when you look at, say I don't know, like Revelation 20 and there's references to them reigning on the earth with Christ and they're taking that as being kind of a literal 1,000 years and, look, this ties into different interpretations of the book of Revelation itself and Scripture as a whole, where they're obviously taking some kind of I mean, you have to have a bit of background in eschatology to get around this stuff, but they're obviously taking a bit more premillennial view.
Speaker 2:So, as I said before, there is kind of this thousand-year reign and maybe that's their justification for taking up arms and for defending their rights and having these rallies that they have yeah, yeah, yeah, this, uh, yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, I did check out the the website and a few of the google reviews. You really you're polarizing a lot of christians here because you have christians that are like either you know, we're all for you, and then you have other christians where they're like you're a cult, you know? Yes, stare away um you know we're all for you. And then you have other Christians who are like you're a cult. You know, stare away. You know, look for the kingdom that is to come, not the kingdom of this world.
Speaker 2:I just want to briefly mention man, so I'm on their website right now rotavineministriesorg. It's just under the About section. They've got listed their core values and some of them are interesting. So they've only got uh five here and they include personal accountability to god, mind, body unity, free self-defense training uh, that's interesting. Building christ-centered families living for the sake of others and defending our family, neighbor and god's kingdom through the biblical word of god and self-defense culture. And again, a reference to revelation 19, as we said earlier. But some of those building christ-defense culture. And again a reference to Revelation 19, as we said earlier, but some of those building Christ-centered families.
Speaker 2:I can get around that, living for the sake of others.
Speaker 1:That's a very Christ-like way to live Personal accountability to God.
Speaker 2:I think again it's the mind-body unity through self-defense and the biblical word of God and self-defense culture that we might take issue with. Yeah, and I think, if you tease that out, a little word of.
Speaker 1:God and self-defense culture that we might take issue with. Yeah, and I think if you tease that out a little bit, it does become a militant ideology at its heart and it's an advocacy for violence essentially. If that comes, you know, if push comes to shove, that's what it is. You know that's what you're going to get. There's going to be a justification for that, sure, as there always is with these kinds of things, but you're dealing with an incitement to armed resistance, so you're going to have a natural anti-authoritarian government approach. You're going to have this call to resist if anything were to happen. For the large part, obviously, they're going to have ties with right-wing politics etc. But for the most part, I don't know about you. I don't know if I've heard stories or not, but they haven't actually used. I know that Pastor Sean Moon was at a Trump rally.
Speaker 2:He was actually present at the 6th of January.
Speaker 1:Oh, is that, oh, sorry.
Speaker 2:They had a bit of a well no, I'm sure there would have been Trump rallies as well, but some members of the group were involved in the Nazis' capital attack on the 6th of January. So, yeah, they've had a presence in that sense for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there is some sort of incitement against sort of an anti-authoritarian, but for the most part I guess, like there hasn't been a, there hasn't been government resistant as much yet for any sort of provoking of those guns to actually take place. But you're right, there is a culture of self-defense there, some Christian self-defense.
Speaker 2:And we're getting into the classic argument of the intersection between faith and politics, aren't we? Yeah, I mean, books have been written about it and people have been thinking about this for a long time. I'm sure Calvin's written stuff on civil government.
Speaker 1:I think that Augustine's like justification for war, not that that's. I mean you could twist it in a way to fit this Sure, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's just interesting in terms of how they take it to be, as in, they can take up and bear up arms and they can defend themselves, in light of certain scriptures that do seem to be not commanding that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe to play the devil's advocate. Would it be okay for a Christian to say, for instance, a thief comes in your home violently, starts becoming physical with family maybe it's a wife or kids or something of that nature Would it be right for a Christian in that scenario? Because I've heard two different arguments here. I've heard almost the martyrdom argument or the pacifistic argument. Sure, I believe, john Piper, you know somebody that I love to listen from time to time, but not too much, because you know I feel guilty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your Catholic convictions come from that. Yeah, that's right, yeah, correct. But you know, I think that's the side that John Piper would lean on, the sort of pacifistic approach, Sure, and he actually mentioned he would never have guns at his church, Right, so that's just not Christian in its ideal. But just to again, you know, glean back to that example would it be okay for somebody to defend their family in this situation of, say, you know somebody coming in and taking away, you know stealing things, maybe physically harming someone?
Speaker 2:I think you can certainly provide a justification for that, more than what they seem to be advocating, where they seem to be advocating for self-defense when their rights are being obstructed, which seems a bit problematic, because, well, it depends what kind of rites we're talking about. I mean, you know, we know in Scripture the commands pertain to. If we're commanded to do things that contradict Scripture, we shouldn't participate in whatever that might be the case. You think of the example of Daniel oh, sorry, daniel's three friends in the book of Daniel when they come out to worship the idol?
Speaker 1:Yes, they obviously refuse to do that.
Speaker 2:So if we, as Christians are directly commanded to do something by the government that contradicts scripture, the Bible supersedes the government in that sense. So I think in the example you provided, where our lives are being threatened, I think there wouldn't necessarily be an issue with self-defense. I think there's probably examples with Rod of Iron, though, where they're saying, maybe I'm just using this as an example maybe the vaccines or whatever the case may be, and I'm not saying like, your own matters of conscience pertaining to the vaccine isn't kind of the issue here, so much as what it states in Scripture. Yeah, and obviously you shouldn't go against your conscience. I'm not saying that at all, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, it seems to me like the early church if we're looking at the early church as an example, which we should, by the way, look into that it seems like martyrdom was more accepted as the Christian ethos, undoubtedly Than self-defense. Than self-defense, yes, you know, christians willingly giving themselves over to the state and government for whatever punishment.
Speaker 2:And, in fact, it was a witness to the validity and the veracity of what they believed, wasn't it? That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Like you said, they were willing to die for their faith, which a lot of other belief systems around the world people wouldn't.
Speaker 1:Correct, correct. And in fact, what did I say?
Speaker 2:The martyrdom is the seed of the blood of the martyrs, is the seed of the church, exactly, and Christianity thrives when it's under persecution, like that Undoubtedly and unique in that sense almost amongst the world religions, you can say something like Islam, which is spread by the sword, much more violent in its origins. So I think Christianity can hold on to that. So I think what Rod of Iron's doing, people like Moon is like you're saying.
Speaker 1:It plays into that heavy eschatological idea, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, they have to focus on that man, and that's why there's. No, it's hard. I mean there might be a statement of faith on the website. Like you said, it's hard to find. Yeah, that's right, they're much clearer about their approach to, maybe government hierarchy or government tyranny, and that's kind of what the Second Amendment's tying into against the authoritarian regimes. Yeah, they seem much more focused on that than actually being willing to die for their faith, being willing to die for the sake of the cross.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's right, and that's something I would actually ask any of the followers, and perhaps Pastor Sean Moon himself is that, what are some things that you are willing to die for and not take up arms and not defend yourself, you know? Going back to the example that we gave, yes, I think, in certain circumstances where you're looking at a thief coming in, of course I think that's fine within reason and you can make a justification for that. Yes. But yeah, if you're talking about ushering down God's kingdom here on earth by way of rights, I just I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:First of all, I don't know if it adheres to traditional Christianity in the sense of church history. You know, if you're looking at, you know the martyrs, and I mean I guess people could say, you know what about the Crusades? I mean, look, there is a good argument, all right, that why the Crusades were necessary, but alas, I will not be giving that. I'm sure you're curious to find out. But you know, aside from the Crusades, you know, most of Christian history typically follows this line of martyrdom where it's better to die, it's better to give your life over rather than it is to defend yourself. And that's not only in church history, that's also in Scripture, that's in the Bible. That's the immediate response, isn't it? Well, you look at even the disciples. They really gave themselves up over to be killed and martyred and I find it hard to believe that they would call the church and call their disciples to defend him.
Speaker 2:It's true, isn't it? By tradition, Peter was martyred, paul was martyred. So yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting because you are really dealing with a tricky, seemingly dichotomy here, because, whilst it's interesting because you are really dealing with a tricky, it's seemingly dichotomy here, but set it up like here and now, which is an interesting worldview, and it actually ties into the whole Mooney's worldview as well, where they see the Messiah as an incomplete work and so therefore, we have to go ahead and march forward and complete that incomplete work that Christ did as an example, example per se. So, yeah, that is a. It also fosters this idea of an emphasis on us versus them, undoubtedly and also which is not necessarily true it fosters this idea of like, oh, it's us versus them, it's us versus us, it's us versus us, we're the enemy here, my own flesh is the enemy here and it calls into question, even when they're referring to the us and them, I don't think they're just referring to the Christian world and those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ and those outside, as in just the secular world at large.
Speaker 2:I guess it seems much more tied to their political affiliation with right-wing American politics and it doesn't really make much scope for those American Christians who might lean politically left, who might vote. Democrats who tend not to agree with their ideas about traditional families or law and order, in particular the police and how they act towards criminals maybe, or maybe even issues like abortion, I don't know, it just seems to be. There doesn't seem to be much support there for people who don't necessarily hold to their political views.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I'm always wary with churches when it comes to trying to align themselves on a political side.
Speaker 2:And they do this a lot, man. I mean you look at some of the rallies that they've been holding. Well, they've got rallies and events that they hold A lot of quite prominent right-wing figures as well. People like Sebastian Gorka have attended this, michael Flynn, who was in the Trump administration previously was quite involved. He was his former national security advisor so he attended the 2024 October so just a few months ago, rod of Iron Freedom Festival.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And again there were lots of threats made, just kind of ostensibly, to Trump's opponents that if he would lose the election again, there would be some kind of retribution involved. So, and you know there's some. The rhetoric isn't very Christian, it's not, no, not particularly. And there's a deep state target list apparently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so a lot of it's not no not particularly.
Speaker 2:There's a deep state target list apparently. Yeah, yeah, a lot of it's not overly pleasant.
Speaker 1:I mean where you side on politics, you know, is your personal view and that's fine, like where you position yourself whether you're conservative or progressive.
Speaker 1:You know that's not the point here. The point is when you start to tie in faith in that equation, you start to tie in faith in the sense of the kingdom here rather than the kingdom that is to come. You start to tie up your faith in worldly affairs rather than godly affairs. You start to tie up things in the here and now rather than whatly affairs you know. You start to tie up things you know in the here and now rather than what is you know to come. And so that makes an interesting point when faith becomes an integral part of politics, whereby your church you know, for example, if you had somebody who disagreed come to your church on maybe the guns right issue or maybe any other issue that the church has a strong stance against. It would be a shame that that person would have to leave that church. That's why they took away. Yeah, because it'd be like well, let's focus on gospel here, let's focus on not what political affiliation you are Not trying to divide.
Speaker 1:Right let's focus on Christian love charity.
Speaker 2:Which can be done. I've come across ministers who hold very strong political views and actually you know they're previously involved in parties in the past and things of this nature. But you know, when they get up at the pulpit each Sunday, they can preach and they can leave political issues aside. That's right. Maybe I don't know issues like abortion, because that's spoken against in Scripture. They might speak out against, but they're not going to get up there and just condemn the other side of the political wing based upon their own kind of personal beliefs. I think that's the difference, yeah that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Like you're saying, you can hold these political beliefs close to you personally, but that doesn't mean you then go and condemn the other view or that you uphold this view as being superior or more scriptural. When there is evidence, particularly pertaining to the Second Amendment and the use of guns, there doesn't seem to be evidence from scripture that that's a morally superior thing to do.
Speaker 1:Right, right, I'm always intrigued. There seems to be, in my opinion, to be cult-like practices that are happening within the World of Iron Ministries, and there seems to be some reverence given to Pastor Sean Moon. So a lot of activity is surrounded by Pastor Sean Moon's ideas. I would like to know the hierarchy of how that church is structured Like. Is there a board of elders? I'm imagining there isn't, but again, it's hard to find. What exactly is the structure of that church? But I'm guessing Pastor Sean Moon would not only be the pastor, he'd be the head, and a lot of his ideas would be filtered into the community. And so, with that being said, I wonder how all you know who grow up in that community start practicing self-defense and self-training with weapons, you reckon?
Speaker 2:it'd be fairly earlier on, wouldn't it? I mean, yeah, the problem for you and me, man, I feel like as well as we're quite detached from this culture, I mean, even when we were talking about the snake biting churches like we have snakes in australia. We can understand that whatever and like the practice of doing that, but the problem with guns is like we're in a culture where it's just not a thing, you know you it's, it's rare to meet people.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm from a country town, so I knew a few people that had guns, but for the most part people don't, whereas they're much more commonplace in the us and therefore and acceptable so therefore, children would have a lot more exposure to parents, with guns and guns being commonplace, particularly in, I guess, southern states of the US.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, but it begs the question again, you know, if you're wanting a gun to defend your family I disagree with John Piper here. I actually think that's okay. Yeah, I think you know there's warrant for that, for protecting your family. But yeah, I mean, again, it's coming back to their motivation seems, I guess, more political than scriptural. Yeah, so that's where we take Umbridge, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, it certainly does, when you know your website barely states what your core beliefs are, but it certainly states what your political affiliations and alignments are.
Speaker 2:I mean, you even look at the section where they call it Gather under their website Right, and you know they advertise when their Sunday service is Yep, but then they're also advertising all the various rallies and they also seem to be advocating for you know, gun classes and gun training, and there never seems to be too much disparity there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. Yeah Well, I would just, you know, maybe put a little bit of, you know, provocative thought here. You know how far do you need to go before something becomes extreme? You know, like, how far does say the church that Pastor, Sean Moon, pastors? You know how far would it be before you see an all-out resistance? You know, because it begs the question, they have lots of guns, they're prepared, they're ready. So what is it? You know what is the catalyst that's going to happen in order for them to actually go about and use these guns, because at the moment they're just using for self-defense training is it one presidential assassination away?
Speaker 2:dare I say, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So we have these guns, we have these ammunitions, we've got a community here, um, you know what's it going to be before we actually enact the very things that we stand for.
Speaker 2:Because, you're right, there does seem to be a lot of posturing associated with it. They seem quite provocative. Well, the rhetoric seems to be it's there, isn't it? But they don't seem to act upon it as often as what they seem to. Yeah, and maybe that's a concerning thing. Radicalising, and I mean, look, this isn't to single out right-wing politics.
Speaker 1:This is prevalent on the left as well.
Speaker 2:I think what you're saying, though, is correct. It's like what tips them over the edge with all this rhetoric, and that's why this rhetoric is increasingly problematic.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, we look at Donald Trump being re-elected. Maybe, if that never happened, who?
Speaker 2:knows. Well, there were the threats, there weren't there. Yeah, that's right From people like Flynn and a few others at the rally in 2024. I mean, they're obviously concerned about the validity of the previous election with that in mind, but yeah, it does beg the question if he wasn't elected, would that have been the tipping point for them to act upon it?
Speaker 1:It certainly is food for thought in that sense. But yeah, I don't know, again hard to find exactly what their core beliefs are. But if we're going off the Mooney's Unification Church teachings from his father and I believe there is crossover there, there definitely is layers that are practiced in that church Then I'm not confident purely on a theological basis. To, you know, like the whole idea of marriage becoming the, you know, offsets, inherited sin. It's interesting how it's inherited sin. I want to look into that, not enough time. But you know, son, the father of Sean being the current Messiah who's completing the incomplete work of Christ, these kind of things. You know, this is a very restoration, restorationist um movement, or church, call it what you will seems to me to be the real red flag. Not necessarily the guns, although the guns do play a part in this in this case that's. That's again, assuming that that's what they actually believe.
Speaker 2:you bang on because you think it. What's brought them to the belief that they can use guns in this way? What's the motivation behind it? I think the guns is kind of auxiliary to the main problem. Correct, yes, which is yeah, they're like we said High eschatology. Restorationist.
Speaker 1:Restorationist view. Yep Kingdom is here and now and we need to fight for that, so let's take up arms. You can kind of see the movement being the slide being happening here. So, yeah, we see the obvious, the guns, we see the political rallies and the gather and all the media attention that's been given here and, for the most part, I don't think there's actually any other real scandal that's associated with this that I know of. Are you aware of anything else?
Speaker 2:Because it seems to be like there's no abuse With the Moon family in particular.
Speaker 1:Well, no, not with the Moon family, but with the Rod of Iron Ministries. Oh sure, there seems to be nothing else Outside of the rallies and yeah, no, no, um, for the most part they're pretty, pretty wholesome, in the sense that you know there's no reports that I know of of abuse or anything like that. So it's not like you know there's anything really else happening except for the guns that's the only thing.
Speaker 1:That's really yeah, yeah only yeah, wow, that we know of. Yeah, um, but yeah, that's that's where my mind is. It's like, okay, how did you come to this? Yes, it's this interpretation, but there's some crossover coming from somewhere, from their doctrine, from their beliefs.
Speaker 2:From their understanding of the Bible. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's where I would, maybe you know, point out that the real concern may be, but it'll be interesting to see if any of our followers or listeners know anyone that's a part of that community or have experienced one of their services. I've seen that video where their services are like they have like guns and they, you know, being Australian, you mentioned it. It's kind of like you know a bit concerning yeah.
Speaker 1:With, like you know, say 100 people in a church with guns. They all better have their safety on you know, because boy oh boy.
Speaker 2:Not going to end well is it no? I mean Friendly fire.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess if you're going into cause like that's a church, you wouldn't want to cause any issues with no no start like rebuking pastor sean moon right there, and then you. You might get some fire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know how many uh cheeks will be turned yeah yeah, I might be a different response yeah, that's something you wouldn.
Speaker 1:That's something you wouldn't want to mess with them. You wouldn't want to test them, would you? No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't especially nowadays, of course. You definitely wouldn't want to test them. But, yeah, it'd be interesting to know if any of our followers have experienced any of the communities that are involved with the Rod of Iron Ministries. We're going to wrap up here a little bit now, but I have to present the question because that's what we're doing here at the Church Review Podcast and we I don't know where Sam stands on this issue, but again, we need a Jesus bobblehead. So if you're out there, please send us one to see if he would approve or just nod his head in shame. Do you think Jesus would approve of this church?
Speaker 2:Jesse, I hate to say it, man, I think there will be a shaking of the head with this.
Speaker 1:Okay, not because of the guns Okay.
Speaker 2:Not because of some of the stuff about family values is very good. I think we've got to come back to the core beliefs and their understanding of the fall, original sin doctrine of humanity. We discussed it earlier. Concerning the restoration of stuff, christ's death wasn't enough. Their high eschatology seems to which is not necessarily a salvation issue but it seems to come out of their restorationist beliefs is concerning, and their understanding of God and their understanding of the atonement makes us a church. I'd struggle to see how Christ would approve of this. I could be wrong, but just going off of those beliefs that they hold to, I think you'd struggle to make a case for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, correct that. The assumptions that we've mentioned here on the episode of them believing a lot of what the Moonies believe, a lot of what the Unification Church believes, is probably what they believe as well. So if that's true, then I agree with you. I think Jesus would nod his head sadly.
Speaker 2:And you want to make concessions, don't you? But it's difficult to when they hold those beliefs, and then Moon himself being the Messiah, I mean that's really problematic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's correct. I think in essence, the Rod of Iron Ministries, the Sanctuary Church, whatever other abbreviations that are added there, I'm just calling it the Sanctuary Church because it's shorter. I think they see it as like a divine mandate for believers to actually combine their faith with action, in the sense that you know this whole culture of self-defense, using firearms as a means to protect and enforce the values of God's kingdom. I just don't see that as biblical, I don't see that as Christian. I see the opposite. Actually, if we look at early church, as we mentioned, I see martyrdom. I see Jesus encouraging his believers not to take up arms.
Speaker 2:I see a kingdom here, a worldly kingdom, kingdom that we ought not to fight for sense, but certainly the majority of christendom would say yeah, the crusades, a lot of the wars surrounding the reformation, the 30 years war, yeah, uh, the saint bala follow me today, massacre whatever it is. The war. You know the disputes between catholics and protestants throughout history, right, uh, people don't think they're good things as christians yeah, people don't think they're taking things as Christians.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people don't think that taking up arms and being hostile and aggressive is good and it does seem, as we said earlier, antithetical to the teachings of Christ.
Speaker 1:Correct. Yeah, no 100%, and it seems like this ministry here seems to do the opposite. In my opinion, I would agree. Yeah, so, with that said, is there any like? Because I want our followers, because we have a fair few actually I want our followers to maybe not only pitch their two cents, maybe comment and follow, and all the yeah.
Speaker 2:If you disagree with us, go for it. Yeah, absolutely I've talked to people actually in my own life that would disagree with me on this, undoubtedly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, we encourage that actually. That's, that's something that, um, yeah, that would that we want, uh, because it makes for good conversation. You know, around the table and I think, um, uh, if there was, you know, if you were to leave a review, if you were to leave a review on, you know, google reviews, or you know I would, I would love to like call, but you know that's just not happening. You know, come on, we're guys from western australia, you know that that's.
Speaker 2:We only just got power 10 years ago. Yeah but?
Speaker 1:but if you look, if you look at the google review maps, you will see the response time on some of those google reviews from whoever's whoever's you know, taking care of the, the, whatever, the social aspect of the church is pretty quick. It's actually really quick. There'll be a review within one to two weeks and within a week or two there'll be a response.
Speaker 2:So that's pretty good.
Speaker 1:But if you were to leave a review, I think the Snakebiting Church hashtag Free the Snakes was awesome. I would encourage all of our listeners to do that, because this is how we're going to build our community. We're going to be a force to be reckoned with, but not in the not in their mooney sense.
Speaker 1:We'll get the guns in the cabinet yes, we will fight with our words, not with our firearms, because we've got none here in australia. So there you go, um, but yeah, if you had to leave a review hashtag, what are you leaving? Is there something that we could leave with, maybe for our followers and listeners to maybe follow up on?
Speaker 2:Oh, like a little catchy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean the hashtag free the snakes was really cool. I got a lot of good love heart emojis and a lot of good feedback from that. So hashtag, keep the gun in the case. I like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for some reason I was thinking of doing something with the Second Amendment, but that's just not very catchy, I think. Keep the guns in the case, because you think about it in contrast to us. We've freed the snakes, but we're also keeping the guns in. We're quite balanced here on the church.
Speaker 1:We certainly are. Okay, we'll do that. Keep the guns. Keep the guns in the case Bomb. No, let's not use that terminology, Unless someone has broken into your house. Oh, sure, sure, sure, there are exceptions. We're sorry. We do apologise if that happened. We are not liable for anything that was said on the podcast show. Okay, we have lawyers. Jesus is our lawyer. Okay, you cannot argue against him Romans 13.
Speaker 1:He was also a high priest as well. But yes, I think we'll leave it at that and we'll go ahead and yeah, we'll call that a call that a wrap. Uh, thank you for listening here at the church review podcast. As always, we do appreciate the feedback. So if you haven't already follow us on the socials instagram, church review podcast one word church review on the x and facebook.
Speaker 1:And uh, thank you again, sam, as always, for your pleasure, as always brother, good to see you, you too, and I know that you're not going to be in for the next episode. Oh no, sorry, no, I'm not 100% sure on that.
Speaker 2:We'll see what happens?
Speaker 1:Correct, yeah, so, but in the meantime, thank you for listening, as always. Do you know the outro Sam?
Speaker 2:Because if you don't, I'm happy to share it. Oh, I forgot already. Stay Churched, stay True. Close. I put it in the wrong order, haven't I?
Speaker 1:All right, I'll do it here. Stay, yeah. That's okay, though, because you know, work in progress, work in progress. We'll get you up to speed very soon. No, it's Stay True, stay Relevant, stay Churched here at the Church Review Podcast. We appreciate it and thanks for listening.
