Workhorse: Caroline Palmer

In this first episode of Season 2, Jess and Maureen dive into a hilarious and profound conversation with novelist Caroline Palmer, whose debut book Workhorse explores the messy ambition of women who refuse to play nice. Recalling the glam of her fashion magazines days to 4:15 a.m. writing sessions in a floor-length faux leopard coat, she dishes on creativity, aging, and redefining success. If you’ve ever wondered whether it’s too late to chase the next big act in your life (spoiler, it’s not!), this episode will light you up.

Discover Caroline's website and her instagram. 

For more, visit She What? on Instagram.

Brought to you by Capital Health

Credits:

Producer and Host: Jess Downey

Producer and Host: Maureen Petrosky

Producer and Editor: Leigh Iacobucci

Artwork: Peter Yates Design

Transcript

Caroline (00:02):

The pandemic happened, I was home with three kids, I wasn't working. Like, was that my career? Is it done? Is it all passed? I think this taught me that like we all have so many acts ahead of us.

Jess (00:22):

I am Jess Downey, you might know me as Editor-in-Chief of Real Woman and Thriving Magazines for Capital Health.

Maureen (00:27):

And I'm Maureen Petrosky. You might have seen me on the Today Show or CBS mornings as an entertaining expert or know some of my books like Wine Club and Zero Proof Drinks.

Jess (00:36):

And we're two friends who created She What?

Maureen (00:40):

<laugh> a podcast that digs into the personal and often surprising stories of women who inspire us and

Jess (00:46):

They get real about the wins, the fails, and everything in between. Here

Maureen (00:51):

We invite her to tell the whole story, the pain she endured, the triumph she celebrated, the friends she made along the way, and maybe even how she reinvented herself.

Jess (01:02):

These are the kinds of stories that make us think. They make us laugh, they keep us going.

Maureen (01:07):

Need a dose of inspiration. It's here. Need a fresh perspective. We got that too.

Jess (01:19):

Hi Maureen.

Maureen (01:20):

Hi Jess.

Jess (01:21):

I know you've written so many books, but have you ever dreamed about writing a fiction novel? It's such a huge fantasy of mine. Hmm.

Maureen (01:28):

What's that thing people say? Everybody has a book in them. So yeah, it's one of those things spinning through my head that keeps me up at night. Ugh,

Jess (01:35):

Me too. <laugh>. I think for me, the desire to write something clever and engaging and well-written is almost paralyzing.

Maureen (01:42):

Jess, come on. You do write clever and engaging things. Every single issue of Real Woman. But a book is a totally different beast, so I get it. Especially fiction.

Jess (01:51):

Yes. Today's guest though, longtime Magazine veteran with titles like Vogue on her resume. Caroline Palmer wrote a banger of a book right outta the gate. Her debut novel Workhorse was rewarded with a full profile in the freaking New York Times. Yes,

Maureen (02:07):

That's the article that said Palmer's one-liners cut like a Tiffany letter opener. And it's so true. <laugh>, the book is being compared to the Devil Wears Prada because it's about a low level assistant at a big time magazine. But I think this book is way darker and way more complex characters.

Jess (02:23):

Oh my God, a hundred percent. Caroline wanted to write this because she wanted to see if audiences would follow or root for a nakedly ambitious young woman. And we totally do. And once you and I got to know her, we found her to be incredibly witty and so sarcastic.

Maureen (02:39):

Yes, <laugh>, she doesn't often take you seriously, but she also doesn't take herself too seriously. And that's sort of her secret sauce. We loved her. You're going to too. So stick around. Caroline Palmer, welcome to She What?

Caroline (02:58):

<laugh>. Thank you. I love that delivery.

Jess (03:00):

So Caroline, you're riding high on your publishing of your first 560 page book. Yeah. Workhorse. But girl, you grew up in Bucks County, right? You're a local girl.

Caroline (03:12):

I grew up in Yardley my whole life.

Maureen (03:14):

That's where I live.

Caroline (03:14):

Okay. So I grew up in Yardley Hunt.

Maureen (03:16):

Yes, of course I know it. I used to trick or treat in Yardley Hunt. That's where all the houses were.

Caroline (03:21):

<laugh>. Okay. Everyone used to trick or treat Yardley Hunt. That is where all the houses were.

Jess (03:25):

Yes. Did you trick or treat there because that's where the big candy bars were?

Maureen (03:29):

No, no. That's where the lots of candy bars were though.

Caroline (03:31):

It was like a lot of people, like you knew if you trick or treated in Yardley Hunt, like yes, you were gonna see, especially in like middle school and high school, you, you were gonna see everybody.

Jess (03:41):

The see-and-be-seen. Oh yeah. That Halloween in Yardley.

Maureen (03:44):

It was a scene. It was a scene. You could fill that pillowcase. I'll tell you.

Jess (03:49):

My little cul-de-sac wasn't cutting it. Not at all. I should have come to Yardley Hunt.

Caroline (03:53):

Oh man. Well, I bet it's still hopping.

Jess (03:55):

Okay, well then you went to the publishing world.

Caroline (03:58):

I did.

Jess (03:59):

Can we just talk about Seventeen Magazine?

Caroline (04:02):

Sure.

Maureen (04:03):

Dreamy.

Caroline (04:04):

Dreamy, yeah. So out of college, I, I got a job at the end of that summer to be the assistant, the editor of 17 Magazine. I did the job at 17 for about a year and a half. And then I got a job at Vogue as an assistant also.

Maureen (04:22):

And I think we might have crossed paths in the cafeteria at Conde Nast because I worked at Bon Appetit as a contributing editor. And I was saying to Jess earlier, I remember so vividly, Conde Nast and just the subculture there, this one July day, this woman, she probably worked on Vogue because she definitely wasn't at Bon Appetit. And I felt like even in the, the cafeteria, like we had our own little sections and she rolled in with a ginormous Russian fur hat. Oh yeah. In the middle of summer July. In the middle of summer. Oh yeah. Like a mini skirt and this giant hat. And I was like, okay. Wow. Amazing. It was quite a scene.

Jess (05:00):

So we all grew up in an era of thinking magazines were so glamorous. Did that all live up to at least some part of your imagination what it was gonna be like, the culture of Vogue?

Caroline (05:12):

It did. I mean, for me it did live up to the hype. So 17 was my first job, and then about a year and a half after I worked at 17, I moved over to Vogue. It was like 2000, 2001. My first present I got from a boss was a bracelet from Tiffany in like the blue box. And for someone like me, like just getting free books, like we got free books before they were published and we got tickets to the theater. So I was at the theater like one or two days a week. I also, because I have large feet, got to borrow shoes.

Maureen (05:44):

She What?

Caroline (05:45):

I know I'm not a sample size dress, but I'm a sample size shoe lady. It also was this time of, I don't know, the, the magazines were doing more serious writing. There were so many people, I was just building this Rolodex full of names. I had heard of my whole life. Like, oh, now I have this famous person in my Rolodex. And that famous, I don't, I don't know if we were someone that grew up caring about writing and things like that. It was also a very exciting place to be.

Maureen (06:14):

The access, I feel like. Right. It's the, the things that you talked about like that are so exciting, especially since when you're a young person in a magazine, you make zero dollars <laugh>, you're like living off the scraps. So getting free books and getting to

Jess (06:27):

Wear shoes, she was probably hacking the shoes and Yeah. You know,

Caroline (06:30):

No, I hoed nothing. I hoed nothing <laugh>. But you know, there, I think there were some creative accounting.

Jess (06:35):

I, I might have hocked a few things when I worked at a tech magazine, but we had to sign, um, there was an embargo on a slim camera, which we had just gotten in to review and then we got laid off. And so I had people chasing me for this camera that I never even actually saw. Apparently it arrived and I signed for it. I don't know. But you gotta be careful with that.

Maureen (06:56):

Yeah. You gotta be careful. You never know what's gonna take you down in publishing. Right. One day you're in, the next day you're out,

Jess (07:02):

You're out. You're being chased by someone with a camera. But a lot of people dream about writing a book. So we wanna sneak peek into the glamorous life of book publishing. Your experience writing this book during COVID and something about you wearing a fake leopard coat while you were <laugh>. Were writing each day. Is that a thing?

Caroline (07:23):

I do. I do it every day. Still was the, was it, you wanted to know how I went about writing it.

Jess (07:28):

You had said that during COVID you were binge watching a lot of tv. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And how did that eventually lead to this book?

Caroline (07:35):

Yes, I had missed a lot. So I, I had always had sort of a full-time job. I was commuting into the city every day, commuting out. And I think I like missed a lot of like pop culture television and things like that. So over the pandemic, I watched like Homeland and I watched the Queen's Gambit and I watched the Undoing and like putting that all together in my head. I started realizing that we see unlikable female characters, but I hadn't really seen an unlikable female protagonist that was sort of driven only by ambition. Like we, we let them be driven by other things in Homeland. When Claire Danes decides to like leave her baby to go back for, to work her infant baby we're like, it's 'cause she's mentally ill and she's off her. Right? Like, there's no other way that we could allow a woman to do that. Monster. Monster. Right. And then when you're watching Narcos and you're like, that guy killed everyone in the village that he didn't know,

Maureen (08:29):

You're like rooting for him.

Caroline (08:31):

Like he's the boss of the cartel. Yes, we did. Did, it's a very strange double standard. And then anytime you do see an overly ambitious character or somebody who wants something, they're just like the villain. Right? So like 13 going on 30, which if you haven't watched it, you know, run, don't walk. But <laugh>, the Judy Greer character is like rifling through her friend's stuff and like stealing her job and like dimming her out. But she's just like bad, she's the bad villain. We know nothing about her. We don't even know where she lives.

Jess (08:57):

Evil sidekick,

Caroline (08:59):

She's just the evil person. And like Jennifer Gardner is all like, good ideas and like goodness and light. And I was like, I'm interested in Judy Greer, like what makes someone go to such lengths for something? So I started writing it as sort of like a character sketch, like how could you draw this woman and how far might the reader follow her before they're finally like, all right. You know, like I actually got an email yesterday from someone who was like, I just have to tell you, like, I couldn't find anybody to like, so I didn't really like it. Yeah. And I was like, that's cool. A little bit like I lost you earlier than I wanted to maybe, but like that was part of the thing. There's merit in that as well if you wanna talk about it, but it's okay. So I wrote it first as a screenplay and I did like a bible, this visual bible that goes through it. And that's actually when I went out to agents with, and the agent that I ended up going with who I love, she was like, I want you to make it a book first. And I was like, oh, sure. I'm gonna say shifted gears. It took me about two years to turn kind of this high level idea into a larger book,

Jess (10:04):

Which before we move on, I feel like it's worth saying. And you know, we had talked about this a little bit. Like everything you just said about women in, in these different TV shows is also true to life, right? Like women aren't, aren't like allowed to be complex or ambitious.

Caroline (10:18):

You're allowed, you're just not. Yeah.

Jess (10:20):

You just can't be president.

Caroline (10:21):

You just can't be president.

Maureen (10:22):

Yes. I just wanted to go back to, um, the leopard coat. Yeah. <laugh>. What happened?

Caroline (10:27):

<laugh>. Okay, so...

Maureen (10:28):

I need to know.

Caroline (10:29):

I should have worn it.

Maureen (10:30):

We can do that later because our listeners can't see you, but I can envision it. Listeners just envision this beautiful woman wearing a leopard coat at 4:00 AM...and go.

Caroline (10:39):

So it's floor length.

Maureen (10:41):

Amazing.

Caroline (10:42):

No leopards were hurt in the creation of this coat. I bought it like a bunch of years ago, like as a grownup with kids. When you trick or treat with your kids, yes, you both don't really wanna wear a costume, but you're like, maybe I should be the mom that they remember that like kind of wore a costume. And so I bought the coat and when it showed up I was like, this is surprisingly awesome coat from Amazon. My alarm goes off at four 15 and I come downstairs and I put on this floor length leopard coat every day and I write in it every day until 7 45. And that is my writing outfit. Uh, and then I, you know, have to do like the getting the kids ready for school. But it is true, I wore it this morning.

Jess (11:27):

Do you feel like Cruella Deville, like, what does it do for you?

Caroline (11:30):

Honestly, Cruella Deville like feels like chic. I look like one of the Beal sisters from Grey Gardens.

Jess (11:37):

<laugh>

Maureen (11:38):

Because

Caroline (11:38):

I also have this like sleep mask that I like that I sometimes forget to take off. So I like push it up <laugh>. So I've got like the thing and the outfit and, and the other day actually I had to do drop off in it because like there was no time and I couldn't change. And I had like the, the mask and the jacket and I was like, if you are late for school, then I have to sign you in <laugh>. You are gonna be so embarrassed.

Jess (12:03):

Which of your three children is more horrified by the coat?

Maureen (12:06):

I would vote all of them

Caroline (12:08):

Such a toss up

Jess (12:10):

<laugh>.

Caroline (12:11):

I have an 11-year-old daughter that I don't think wants to see me like in public in the coat, but um,

Maureen (12:16):

She's disowned you completely already. She 11 years old. Bye mom.

Caroline (12:20):

Yeah. The coat is here to stay.

Maureen (12:22):

I applaud the self-discipline of getting up at 4:00 AM to write. And I think that a lot of people, you know, everyone says they wanna write a book or they have a great idea, but what people don't realize is the amount of work that actually goes into creating something excellent. And I just have to say, I know Jess and I both read the book and the writing is phenomenal.

Caroline (12:40):

Oh, thank you.

Maureen (12:40):

And whether you like the characters or not, I think that's almost secondary. I think that yeah, there's not a lot to love about them. I think that was the purpose. I think you were very purposeful as an author and I think you totally succeeded. But I was telling Jess nailed it. Yeah. It was like in some moments, like watching a car crash, like I couldn't stop because it was so cringey, cringey. The character's decision making were just like, how no, she's not gonna do that. Is she gonna do that? And then she does it and then it is, don't

Jess (13:10):

Wear the fur coat to the hospital.

Caroline (13:13):

Right? Yes. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it.

Maureen (13:16):

There's something to be said for being such a strong writer that someone was put off enough to tell you that they didn't like the characters. I mean, that's a success, right? Like you,

Caroline (13:24):

I was like, keep it to yourself.

Jess (13:26):

That's because we're all in our forties and we've developed enough of a thick skin to handle it. At least for me, I'm almost speaking for myself.

Caroline (13:33):

I think one of the pleasures of doing this later in life is that exactly that in the sense that like, I've thought about writing a novel since it was, I was in my twenties, but aside from being like drunk all the time as opposed to half the time now, but <laugh>,

Jess (13:48):

I

Caroline (13:50):

Feel like I was worried like, what if people think I'm dumb? What if people think I'm a bad writer? What if people hate it? It was a lot when you're still trying to figure out like who you are in the world and like where you fit and who your people are. Especially in a city that, you know, I love New York, but it is very, you know, it's, it's like what do you do and who do you know? And like you just, I remember my twenties and, and then my thirties, you like didn't really wanna put a foot wrong, you'd rather do nothing and have people wonder if you were, you know, had any talent than actually like, you know, get in the ring so to speak. And so I felt like by the time I got older I was like, well, you know, I'm half dead and certain people aren't gonna like it. And like, what are you gonna do half dead? And, and Right. You're like, well, so I think most people who don't like it won't tell me. Great. Um, and then, you know, if some people want to like, I'm also like, that's okay. You know, I think getting older is also you learning. You can't be for all markets. So, you know, there was a great pleasure in doing it later, I think.

Jess (14:50):

And you also didn't show it to anyone No. Including your writer husband.

Caroline (14:55):

Correct.

Maureen (14:56):

He what?

Jess (14:57):

He what?

Maureen (14:58):

Yeah. <laugh>. That's

Jess (14:59):

Crazy.

Caroline (15:00):

That should be your new program.

Maureen (15:02):

Yeah. Our next one, that's our spinoff. Yeah. Honestly, that is a great thing to bring up Jess, because a lot of writers and myself included, used to always have a reader when I was younger. Anything I wrote, I let my husband read it quickly before I would publish it. And as I've gotten older, I've just gotten more confident in what I'm writing and just putting it through to my editors. And were you always so confident that you didn't let him read anything or didn't have a reader before you sent it on?

Caroline (15:27):

I love the misread of this situation. <laugh>,

Jess (15:30):

<laugh>

Maureen (15:31):

Do tell,

Caroline (15:32):

I feel like it's, it's having no confidence, right? Like if you are writing something and you are going to finish it and you are in the groove and you are down the road, I did not have the confidence to give it to someone else and have them say, oh, it's good. But did you ever think about whether or not <inaudible> or how about, or I was struggling with this part. I was like, I can't have anyone close to me offer me that kind of feedback. I had to keep going. I couldn't take it aboard. I had a couple of friends when I was especially proud of a graph or proud of a few pages. I would like send that off to them. I'd be like, just can you bring me back and like, tell me what a genius I am so I can keep going. But no, I think it wasn't because I was confident, it's because I wasn't

Jess (16:12):

Meaning that if you had shown it to him and he had said it's garbage, you would've been crushed.

Caroline (16:17):

And that never would've happened. But like, even if it was like, this is really great, but even this like certain part, I got lost or I was like, you know what, I'm gonna let my agent and editor who I love dearly, but are not like, you know, I'm not, I don't live with 'em sleeping in

Jess (16:32):

Bed with

Caroline (16:32):

That with you. I'm not sleeping in bed with them most of the time. I just <laugh> thought I'm gonna let them do that because it, it's more of a business relationship that way. And I don't have to factor in the emotional component of it at all. I had, I had to keep it all business.

Jess (16:45):

Your nightmare is is that Julia Louie Dreyfus book? You Hurt my feelings where she overhears him saying that her work

Caroline (16:52):

Sucks.

Jess (16:53):

That is my nightmare actually. That I'm gonna just secretly overhear someone saying what a bad writer I am. And it's like someone I know.

Caroline (17:00):

Don't let them read it. <laugh>

Maureen (17:02):

<laugh>.

Jess (17:03):

Yeah. But he did eventually read it like last week. Right?

Caroline (17:07):

I think we're almost there. Okay.

Jess (17:09):

<laugh>. It's gonna land the plane anytime. Okay. We're

Caroline (17:11):

Almost through. We're almost through. Yeah.

Maureen (17:13):

So talking about your characters a little bit more. I think that anyone that's been in New York knows someone like Davis mm-hmm <affirmative>. And in publishing it's very true that a lot of people that hold those jobs typically get their money from somewhere else. Because as I mentioned before, you don't get a big paycheck and it is kind of a glamorous, very accessible lifestyle. How much of your characters were based upon people you may have known or your own experiences? I

Caroline (17:39):

Get this question a lot, um, which I knew was I was gonna happen when it was when I was writing it. So I was very careful. So the observations, the different kinds of people, all of that comes from my experience in some way or another. The characters and the plot do not, like my brother had his book club and they called me in and my brother was like, everyone's asking if you're clo. And I'm like, no. And here's why. <laugh> and he had like a laundry list of all the things I wouldn't do. So I was very careful to, to make sure nobody was anybody in particular for this reason. Like, I'm still, I still know all these people, everyone I worked with I loved. So I had no desire to be like, I'm gonna write secretly about somebody. But like sure. The the, the observations and the types were things I experienced.

Maureen (18:30):

So they're like amalgamations,

Jess (18:32):

Right? It's not a thinly veiled memoir.

Caroline (18:34):

No, no. Aside from that time I had drowned that one girl

Jess (18:38):

<laugh> <laugh>.

Caroline (18:40):

No, it's not. And that was a little bit like, that was kind of fun, right? Like if it was, honestly, if it was about me, it'd be the most boring book on earth. Right? Like, it'd be like, and then I went to the grocery store like if this woman's life clothes life is, is, is so much more sinister and dark and risk taking mm-hmm <affirmative>. Than the mine ever was. But I think that that's part of the pleasure of being a writer. Yeah.

Jess (19:02):

And

Maureen (19:02):

You mentioned your mom, so you've got kind of a balancing act going on, right? You've got three kids. Yes. And you're still writing?

Caroline (19:10):

I am <laugh> not today

Maureen (19:14):

Yet. She had to think about it for a second. Yeah, yeah.

Caroline (19:16):

I mean I've been on book tour most of the fall. It actually is gonna be continuing into next year, so I've gotta like get back into the, I said once I put the Christmas trees up, I was back to like daily writing again and the Christmas trees are up. So, um, it is time. So I just have to get back into that 4 45 to 7 45 rhythm again. And I think once you do it for two or three days, like it starts to come back. But I, I have taken a nap every day, like straight up. I have to sleep every day.

Jess (19:44):

I'm not writing a book and I take a nap every day. So

Caroline (19:47):

I, I definitely have to now, but I will say like if anyone out there or you two lovely ladies out there, I, in this process, people are like, I can't believe you get up at four 15. Like what a slog. I would go to bed at night and I would be like, I can't wait to wake up tomorrow morning. Like, I was like legitimately excited to like get back into it and I was like, wow, when is the last time I felt like this about something? I mean till the editing part where I wanted to like jump outta window. But prior to that it was kind of delightful. Most of the time

Jess (20:18):

It's the exact opposite feeling of being in a prolonged writer's block when you are grooving with what you're writing. Wow. It's like literally you feel like your fingers are just of their own volition and it's the best feeling in the world. And

Caroline (20:32):

Then when you write a really good scent, you're like, oh my god, yeah,

Jess (20:36):

I'm so awesome.

Caroline (20:38):

I love this sentence. It was something I had wanted to do. And I say this in my acknowledgements for like a very specific reason, to be honest, to like every woman my age, I think we all grew up in this time, the three of us where it was like 20, under 20, 30 under 30 <laugh>. Like there was this like ranking of success and this like timeline. And I remember being like, uh, I'm never gonna be on a 30 under 30 list. And I was like, looks like I'm never gonna be on a 40 under 40. Let's do like, you know, I was like, oh, I guess in our lives I think we start to realize windows for certain things may have closed and like what it would've been like had we done it or gone through it. And this sort of taught me that maybe that's not true, like that maybe I don't need to be on a stupid list.

Caroline (21:21):

I mean if someone wants to put me on a 50 under 50 list, they are more than welcome <laugh>. But I will accept it with gr. But I feel like what this taught me is I went through I think a period of feeling like what am, like what is my career? Like the pandemic happened, I was home with three kids. I wasn't working. I guess was that my career? Is it done? Is it all passed? Just, you know, like what? And I think this taught me that like we all have so many acts ahead of us. Like I could learn to knit <laugh> if I wanted to. I could do it right. And like, I just was like, I hope one person reads my acknowledgements. It's like, I'm gonna write a book, you know, and I am 65 and I'm gonna write a book because there was so much pleasure in it and you really can do it or run a marathon or whatever that thing is. I just, this was really eye-opening for me after a period of feeling sort of like washed up, for lack of a better word. Which I think we all go through sometimes.

Maureen (22:11):

Impression. You're so young.

Caroline (22:12):

I am 29. <laugh>

Maureen (22:15):

<laugh>.

Jess (22:15):

She's only saying that because we're the same age as you. So,

Caroline (22:18):

Yeah, I know.

Maureen (22:19):

So what would be one of those things for you now?

Caroline (22:22):

What do you mean?

Maureen (22:23):

Like when you said you always wanted to write a book, but maybe you thought you couldn't mm-hmm <affirmative>. And you're giving that advice to your readers. But if you took your own advice, what would be one of those things that, are you done now? You wrote a book and you're, oh yeah,

Caroline (22:34):

Now I'm done. Yeah. Right.

Maureen (22:36):

<laugh>

Caroline (22:37):

Lights out. Lights out. No. Um,

Maureen (22:39):

No. What would it be? Like, what's in the dream world for you now?

Caroline (22:42):

Gosh, that's such a good question. 'cause it's been like, write a second book. Like I always feel like a second book is the real challenge. Mm-hmm

Maureen (22:48):

<affirmative>. Always. And it's like the second child. It's like people have a baby and then the first thing people are asking is like, when are you gonna have another Yeah. Like give a girl some breathing room. You just wrote an awesome book that is being very well received. So really enjoyed this time right now. But I know that in the business of publishing that is because it is a business. They want the next thing out of you.

Jess (23:10):

Well, not just that, but like I, I listened to an interview with Buzz Bissinger and talking about like after Friday Night Lights, his,

Caroline (23:16):

Oh, I love him.

Jess (23:17):

Same. But he never wrote Friday Night Lights again. Like the rest was not good. I mean, not great,

Maureen (23:22):

But that's okay. He wrote Friday Night Lights.

Jess (23:25):

I know, but it's hard to write a great book and then not be able to write a second great novel.

Caroline (23:29):

100%. And I think that that's a big anxiety I have right now. Not that it was like Friday Night Lights, but I hope he's still getting paid on like a weekly basis for that.

Jess (23:37):

He's doing just fine. But he has some weird hobbies, let's just say.

Caroline (23:40):

Oh, I know he does. I read all about him. Yeah, but you know what, I would do a whole podcast with you guys on Friday Night Lights.

Jess (23:46):

Same. I've watched the whole series twice. <laugh>. Anytime though. Sidebar.

Maureen (23:50):

I'm in. Yeah. Oh my God, I love it. Clear Eyes, full Hearts, can't Lose Girls. No,

Caroline (23:55):

I meet people who haven't seen it and I'm like, oh my God, do you know the joy that is ahead of you?

Jess (24:01):

Every actor in that show was like, turned out to be someone great. Even Jesse. Oh my

Caroline (24:06):

God.

Maureen (24:07):

Okay, you two are gonna love this. But at one point I wanted to paint a pee by our back door so that every time we left the house we could touch it like they do when they leave <laugh> the locker room. Me and Mason, my husband would not allow it to happen, but I was like, let's you see that I'm

Caroline (24:21):

Looking around my kitchen. I'm like, oh, right where

Maureen (24:23):

You can put one.

Caroline (24:23):

Oh, we can do that, we can do that.

Maureen (24:24):

So that when everyone leaves the house, they touch it and they, they know,

Caroline (24:28):

Oh my God,

Maureen (24:28):

We are all Friday Night Lights fans, but I'm not letting you off the hook with what you want for yourself next.

Caroline (24:34):

It's a great question. So I would love to write a second book. The funny thing is, and I think, I don't know, just if you saw this in journalism as well as when I first started out in like the world, I thought I wanted to do film and tv. And so I interned at like a TV studio in Delaware and I was like, oh wow, there's so many cooks in this kitchen, right? There's like editor and the person who shoots it and the person who writes it and the person who picks the music and the, and there's, that's why there's so many credits. And then when I switched over to journalism, I'm like, there's one grit like you actually own. Yeah. The idea and the reporting and the writing and you know, like you kind of take your project the whole way through, which was much more appealing to me. But I sometimes see things TV or film that I get like filled with this weird emotion that I'm like, I wanna make that, like, I feel like editing seems really exciting to me or something like that, but

Jess (25:26):

Well, the by yourself part, so like what I was reacting to what, what you're saying, and Maureen and I've talked about this so many times, I, I get so lonely 'cause I miss the magazine days of like, where we would go outside in the hallway and talk about how we're gonna like a headline for an hour. Like, oh this, you know, and we be so excited about. And just that collaboration and comradery. Like it's just me alone in this like space most of the time now. And it's lonely and I miss I miss all that. Yeah.

Maureen (25:54):

Yeah. And it's true in television production, it really is like a family because you spend so much time together on a project and whether you're the editor or the executive producer or the producer or whatever your role might be, you all birth this project together so you're bonded like for life from it, you know? Which

Caroline (26:14):

Also sounds nice. You know, I wanna get a PhD in American History. Is it too late for that? There

Maureen (26:20):

You go. Wow.

Caroline (26:21):

Um, makes total sense. Yeah. Like I'm like, I wanna be John Nietzche when I grow up. I wanna be like <laugh>. Like that's, but you

Jess (26:27):

Are gonna have a TV show of this book, right? Like that you were optioned right from Jump. Yeah.

Caroline (26:33):

Yeah. They're working on it. So, but these things are very, you never know mm-hmm <affirmative>. But like all signs are good. They're working on it. I there's an amazing team working on it. It's

Jess (26:43):

It's heyday, right? Hey Heyday. Yeah.

Caroline (26:45):

Yeah. They're amazing. That part's been really fun also. Like I went out to California and even just like getting exposed to it, even if it goes nowhere has been kind of cool. Um, so cool. So yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's awesome. But yeah, honestly like all I wanna do is write other books.

Maureen (27:01):

Do you think you'll stay in the same genre?

Caroline (27:04):

No. No. Hmm.

Jess (27:05):

You should just try to hit every genre, but make the most unlikeable characters you can possibly make. Exactly. And see if people will, will follow you.

Caroline (27:14):

One's gonna be like a romance, like bodice, ripper, <laugh>. But like, you're just, you're, she'll be pretty, but you'll hate

Jess (27:20):

Her. You'll hate her guts.

Caroline (27:21):

You'll hate her. She'll be like, I'm awful. Um, <laugh> but girls, girls Breaking news, the thing I'm working on now all takes place in Philadelphia. Woo.

Maureen (27:32):

Well, and if that gets turned into a film, they are getting tons of huge tax breaks in Philadelphia right now for filming. So that could just be like, just keep rolling your success Right in done.

Caroline (27:43):

Look

Jess (27:43):

At Maureen Petroski with the, with the knowledge. Drop the knowledge.

Caroline (27:47):

Yeah. Yeah. You're like tax breaks.

Jess (27:50):

<laugh>. Okay. Can we talk about you for a few more minutes? There was a part of the book, and I mentioned this to you when I spoke to you last, where Chloe as sinister as she is, had a moment of feeling like sad that maybe she wouldn't have a child. And um, I wanted to know if that's something that you felt early in your twenties, like at some point in your twenties, like clear that you wanted a family and would that ever happen for you? And then how did your family come to be? How did you meet your hubs?

Caroline (28:21):

Yeah, I think I always knew I wanted that stuff at some point. I mean that I was never someone who was like, I'm not sure if that, you know, I was, I was always very sure I, I met my husband. It's very charming. We were both at the New York Public Library Literary Lions Fall gala.

Maureen (28:37):

Aw, I love it.

Caroline (28:38):

And I, this is

Maureen (28:40):

Very sex in the city. I'm feeling, wait,

Caroline (28:42):

But I'm gonna tell you the whole story. It starts out pretty funny. I had been single when this happened. I got invited with a guest and I asked like three of the guys I had been like, sort of dating sort of, and they all turned me down and I was like, great. And I went alone and they had to like take the chair away, you know, and like your, your date doesn't show up <laugh>. But I was trying to be optimistic on the way there. I'm like, maybe I'll meet somebody like who knows who. And so we, you know, it's a seated dinner and I'm seated, I swear to God I'm seated next to two hilarious, amazing, but gay men who are not interested in me. And the guy on my left is, was in a wheelchair with an oxygen tank. And he was also lovely, but I was like, I don't really know if you didn't see a future, we have a future.

Caroline (29:24):

So I was leaving like the, the, the dinner ended. It was great. I'm le except I was like, get me home. And I was leaving and I ran into a friend that worked at the New Yorker and she was like, come to the party in the basement. They have like a young fellows thing in the Celeste Bartow forum. And I was like, no. And I got my coat. Like I was like petulant, like holding my coat <laugh>. And I went and I went downstairs and I was like, I'm not, and she's like, let me get us drinks. And she went to get drinks and my now husband walked up to me and started talking to me. And he was, it's really helpful when people are in tuxedos it like really just, it's like we're, it's like you're like, oh. And a few minutes into talking to me, he looked at his like Blackberry or whatever, whatever was like pre iPhone and he was like, I'm sorry to look at my phone, but my team is in the World Series. And I was like, well who's your team? 'cause it was Philly's Yankees, I guess. Yeah, Philly. And he was like

Jess (30:16):

2009.

Caroline (30:17):

Correct. And uh, I, oh, he's like Phillies. And I'm like, why are the Phillies your team? And he's like, 'cause I'm from Philadelphia. And I'm like, I'm from Philadelphia. And he is like, where are you from? From Philadelphia? And I go, bucks County. And he goes, that's not Philadelphia <laugh>. Because he had grown up on Rittenhouse Square, so he's

Maureen (30:33):

Really from Philly. And

Caroline (30:35):

I was like, fine. So that is how we met. Uh, and then, you know, we started talking and then kind of that was that what

Jess (30:42):

A meet. Cute you have there

Maureen (30:43):

New York meet. Cute.

Caroline (30:45):

I know, I know. So that's why the inscription says thank you for talking to me at the library <laugh>. And then my, my friend came up with the drinks, like af you know, who'd gone to the bar and she came up like behind him so I could see her. And I gave her like one of these like take a hike, like take, get the hell outta here. She was like, what? And I totally ditched her the rest of the night. So it

Jess (31:03):

Was the equivalent of the white towel on the doorknob kind of thing. You're like, get lost.

Caroline (31:07):

I was like, don't come up <laugh> talking to someone. I was like, sorry, didn't talk to her again. But uh, yeah. So that is how we met.

Jess (31:13):

That's super cute.

Caroline (31:14):

Yeah. Fit location for people who write, I guess,

Maureen (31:17):

Well along the way I'm sure you got a lot of advice from a lot of different people. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Is there anything that you can share with us or anything that sticks out to you maybe that you go back to often? She

Jess (31:28):

Looks like she knows what it is, but she's not sure if she wants to share it.

Maureen (31:30):

Or maybe just like <laugh>, you

Caroline (31:33):

Know, I've got a lot of good advice. I mean, I think we all have at this point. I think certain things, I have three stand out to me and I have one hanging in my house because I love it for everything. And it is a Wayne Gretzky quote <laugh>. But I really think it every day and I really follow it every single day. And I want my kids to do the same, which is you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Yeah,

Jess (31:57):

No, that's a good one. That's

Caroline (31:58):

A good one. Yeah. I think it every day I'm like, just ask. All I could say is no. And it's amazing how many people just say yes, it's shocking or you know, we'll help you or give you advice or introduce you to that person like, or you know, whatever it is. Another one, actually, these are why these are so relevant today. Today I had a really busy morning. I was at like three different meeting, like meetings with people. And when I was at Vogue, I remember this one day, Anna Winter of all people was asked me to meet with someone. Um, and I, she asked me if I had set up the meeting and I said, yes, they're coming into the office at 10. And she said, well why are they coming here? You need to go there. You need to be out in the world.

Caroline (32:38):

You need to see what's going on with the job that you have. And I find that like sometimes, especially all of us working from home, I get a little like, I'm home, I'm home, I'll do a Zoom. And I sometimes remember that I have to get out and when I get out it is like a hundred times better every time. Like I learn more, I meet more, I see more. I'm more inspired. So the other one is just like, be in the world with your eyes open and your head up, which we're really bad at lately. And one the last one I can think of today. And then, uh, I love, and I read it in a story when I was 22 years old, a magazine story by a writer named Doty Kanen. I'm not even sure if she still writes and I don't know if she actually wrote it herself or was quoting someone else, but it said, there are two things you never regret in life.

Caroline (33:29):

A swim and a baby. And I thought, I love this. So for my whole life, anytime I'm in front of a body, water, pool, ocean, whatever, I always jump in. And I feel like I try to like take that further than that. But, and I have never gotten out of the water and been like, that was a mistake. You know? So I think a lot of the stuff that's on my mind clearly right now is like, shoot now. Like ask questions later. And they all kind of tie together in that way, I guess. Like, be in the world, do the thing. 'cause it usually always pays off somehow and jump in a body of water while you're at it

Jess (34:06):

And just be careful not to swim with the baby. But all really good advice.

Caroline (34:11):

It's not, you never regret a swim with a baby <laugh>. It's

Jess (34:15):

And

Caroline (34:15):

And a baby. It's very important. The and

Jess (34:18):

Is crucially important,

Caroline (34:19):

Crucially important,

Maureen (34:21):

But just jump in. I love it. I'm glad you jumped in with she what today. It was such a pleasure to have you Caroline. Oh

Caroline (34:27):

My God, I love it. Why it ever,

Maureen (34:31):

Well then she what? To be continued and we cannot wait to see what you do next.

Caroline (34:36):

Oh, thank you guys. Thank you so much for the time.

Jess (34:39):

Oh man. Caroline embodies shoot now ask questions later. More than just about anybody I've ever met. Doesn't she? In the best possible way.

Maureen (34:47):

Yes. And she totally reminded us that we all have multiple acts in us. And on that note, Jess, you should freaking write that book.

Jess (34:54):

Oh, <laugh>. Yes. Now I think I need to write it. Maybe Caroline will let me her leopard coat. Yes. Okay, stay tuned. She what Comes to You from Real Woman Magazine, A product of capital Health. This episode was produced by Lee Ucci, with Music by Epidemic Sound.

Maureen (35:15):

Please, please leave us a rating and review. We want the show to be so great and we need you to help us do that. So follow, subscribe, and next time bring your friends too. Until then, I'm Maureen Petrosky.

Jess (35:27):

And I'm Jess Downey.