The Ambition Trap: Amina AlTai

What if the very thing driving your success is also quietly breaking you? In this episode, Jess and Maureen get deeply personal with author of The Ambition Trap and leadership coach, Amina AlTai. When our identity is tied our work, and burnout and chronic illness becoming so prevalent, Amina makes the case as to why it's time to reevaluate our relationship with ambition. 

Visit Amina's website to learn more about her book and her coaching. You can also follow Amina on Instagram. 

For more, visit She What? on Instagram.

Brought to you by Capital Health

Credits:

Producer and Host: Jess Downey

Producer and Host: Maureen Petrosky

Producer and Editor: Leigh Iacobucci

Artwork: Peter Yates Design

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Transcript

Amina AlTai (00:03):

I took on this role of the caretaker, the perfectionist, the high achiever, because I thought that's what I needed to do.

Jess (00:18):

I'm Jess Downey. You might know me as Editor-in-Chief of Real Woman and Thriving Magazines for Capital Health. And

Maureen (00:24):

I'm Maureen Petrosky. You might have seen me on the Today Show or CBS mornings as an entertaining expert or know some of my books like Wine Club and Zero Proof Drinks,

Jess (00:32):

And we're two friends who created She What?

Maureen (00:36):

<laugh> a podcast that digs into the personal and often surprising stories of women who inspire us

Jess (00:42):

And they get real about the wins, the fails and everything in between.

Maureen (00:47):

Here we invite her to tell the whole story, the pain she endured, the triumph she celebrated, the friend she made along the way, and maybe even how she reinvented herself.

Jess (00:58):

These are the kinds of stories that make us think. They make us laugh, they keep us going.

Maureen (01:03):

Need a dose of inspiration. It's here. Need a fresh perspective. We got that too. Hi Jess.

Jess (01:18):

Hi Maureen.

Maureen (01:19):

Jess, I want you to tell our listeners what you just told me.

Jess (01:22):

Oh yes. A friend from yoga shared that she told a colleague to listen to She What? and she was obsessed. She binged like five or six episodes and yay. We love that.

Maureen (01:31):

We love that because every time we listen back or are editing an episode, we both say to each other, these stories are amazing. They stop us in our tracks and we wanna get the stories out. So we have a challenge for you.

Jess (01:43):

Tell one friend or two or three or four, whatever you have <laugh>, tell them to listen to your favorite episode and we can make these stories go even farther.

Maureen (01:51):

Yes. Let's get to it.

Jess (01:53):

Speaking of one friend, we have a new friend. Let's talk about her. Yes.

Maureen (01:56):

Love her.

Jess (01:57):

So in so many She What? episodes we're talking to a woman who is crushing it at work in some way or another. And that makes it even more wild to think women are still relatively new to so many careers in industries.

Maureen (02:11):

Yeah. Like creating a podcast <laugh>, I mean <laugh>, we take for granted that we get to work in spaces that women just a few decades ago could never have dreamed of.

Jess (02:20):

But it's really reassuring to go to like a college graduation these days and see that it's pretty evenly men and women now coming into the workplace.

Maureen (02:27):

Yeah. But those dreams can also be a double-edged sword. I mean, we know ambition can have a darker side.

Jess (02:34):

Our guest today, Amana AlTai, a leadership trainer, executive coach, and author of The Ambition Trap shares such smart insights and really changed our minds about a bunch of things related to ambition.

Maureen (02:46):

Yeah. She even challenged the two of us to take ourselves out of what we typically think. Ask some tough questions about our own patterns and motives.

Jess (02:54):

Yeah. We got in there deep <laugh>, but in a fun way. Definitely.

Maureen (02:58):

We laughed with Amina and she helps us to reevaluate our relationship to work and ambition. And she will definitely challenge you too. So stick around

Jess (03:07):

And ask your friend.

Maureen (03:11):

Amina AlTai, welcome to She what?

Amina AlTai (03:14):

<laugh>. Thank you so much for having me.

Jess (03:16):

Amina AlTai is such a fun name to say. It is.

Amina AlTai (03:19):

Thank you. I really like it. Like when I got married I was like, I am absolutely not changing my last name because nothing sounds great with Amina except AlTai.

Jess (03:27):

Yeah, <laugh>.

Maureen (03:29):

I agree.

Jess (03:29):

You're like, I tested and learned and nothing sounds good. So we're gonna keep it. Yeah.

Amina AlTai (03:33):

Nope, nothing.

Jess (03:35):

Well, Amina, you are the author of the Ambition Trap, executive Coach, leadership trainer, and you're also a chronic illness advocate. So we're so happy to have you here to talk about all the things.

Amina AlTai (03:46):

I'm overjoyed. All the things. Let's do it.

Maureen (03:48):

Well I am sitting here looking at my copy of the Ambition Trap, so I see you have yours too, but what a beautiful book, kind of a game changer for me. Jess and I were talking a lot about what ambition is before we got on with you today. And I always had an idea of ambition as something really positive and I always thought I was an ambitious person. Jess, do you think you're an ambitious person?

Jess (04:12):

Yes. And I also always had like a positive connotation about ambition, but as we were talking about it and after, you know, reading your book, the definition definitely changes as you move through your life. Especially I think as a woman. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I know I'm an ambitious person, but now I'm starting to think about the healthy parts and the not so healthy parts. So I think we really wanna have you explain to the listeners how did you come to write this book and what is your ambition, origin story?

Amina AlTai (04:43):

Ooh, I love this question <laugh>. And I also love that the two of you had positive connotations around your ambition too, because I often did not. I was often getting a lot of commentary about how my ambition was like outsized and too much and, but my origin story is I'm the child of immigrants. I'm an immigrant myself. And was just told like, keep your head down, work really hard and if you do that you'll have everything that you want. And I was like, cool. I like nice things like, got it. And so I just trained myself to be the hardest working person in the room. And you know, the first one in the last one out and then early into my career, actually seven years into my marketing career, my first career I've had many, I ended up burning out and developing two autoimmune diseases, but it happened in this really dramatic fashion.

Amina AlTai (05:28):

And I opened the book telling this story where I had started to feel not so good. And at first I was just kind of like swatting the symptoms away of like, you know, it's okay to lose a little hair, it's okay to have a little brain fog, whatever it is. And then the symptoms got louder and louder. And then I went to seven different doctors and it was the seventh doctor that called me on a Friday and said, Amina, if you don't go to the hospital now instead of going to work, you'll be days away from multiple organ failure. Oh my God. And so I had to radically shift my relationship to success, ambition, and work. And it sent me down the path and, and that's why I became sort of student of ambition. I think unconsciously I was a student of ambition my whole life. Just watching my family and absorbing through culture. And then after that stop moment, I think I became much more conscious of my relationship to ambition.

Jess (06:17):

I'm gonna, can we talk about what happened with the first six doctors?

Maureen (06:19):

<laugh>? Yeah. <laugh>.

Amina AlTai (06:21):

No one's actually ever asked me that. I love this question. I mean, medical gaslighting is real. Oh

Maureen (06:27):

Goodness. We know it.

Amina AlTai (06:28):

We know it, right? It takes women on average two and a half to four and a half years longer to get a diagnosis than men, which is wild.

Jess (06:35):

Do you wanna hear a terrifying statistic I heard last weekend? Sure. It takes a doctor 18 seconds before they interrupt a woman explaining her symptoms. Oh, is that not the most horrible thing you've heard today?

Amina AlTai (06:47):

That's banana. That's banana. That like

Maureen (06:49):

Hurt me right in the middle, like, oh, I felt that. Yeah.

Jess (06:52):

Yeah. 18 seconds woof. Anyway,

Maureen (06:55):

All right. So six people,

Amina AlTai (06:57):

Six people were just like, you're fine. And it was actually really interesting because after my doctor called me and was like, Hey, days away from organ failure, she was like, you have to go to the hematologist. So the first hematologist I went to, this was like quite blatant medical racism, looked at me and was like, there's no way based on the color of your skin that you are this sick. And I was like, I don't know. I was like, I'm a brown person, it's summer. Like I don't know that. That's right. What

Jess (07:21):

Did she mean by that?

Amina AlTai (07:23):

It was a man. Oh,

Jess (07:24):

What did he mean by that? <laugh>? Well, so

Amina AlTai (07:25):

Basically I had such critical iron deficiency anemia because I had undiagnosed celiac and wasn't able to absorb anything. So then I had to get intravenous iron, but he was literally like looking based on the color of my skin and was like, you look fine, you looked healthy. Then I called my doctor who was a woman of color and I was like, um, he says, I look fine.

Jess (07:43):

Like you're not pale <laugh>.

Maureen (07:45):

Oh my goodness. Yeah,

Amina AlTai (07:46):

It was wild. So people, what a journey. But also, you know, I was on a call yesterday with a healthcare company and it's like, it's both things, right? Both my parents are healthcare professionals and I think it's so hard because I think so many healthcare professionals feel like the, the patient experience is at odds with their financial experience, right? Of like, you've gotta move 'em through fast, right? And you don't have time to spend with patients. So I dunno, my heart goes out to them. I think it's a really hard job. It's, it's why I didn't choose it. Yeah,

Maureen (08:14):

It's a really tough place to be in. I see that with my husband as a provider. He's just like, it's, we're getting paid less and less by insurance and then we have to see more patients, but still trying to be helpful to their patients, but also make a living. Right? It's just this really fine line. So I get that, but

Amina AlTai (08:32):

It is, see, you know, but

Jess (08:33):

Before we digress too far,

Maureen (08:34):

Yeah. Before we get away from it, you mentioned your family and you know, just put your head down and that you're a brown woman, but tell us a little bit about your background. We're looking at you, but so that they can get a full picture if they're not watching.

Amina AlTai (08:45):

So you can get a visual.

Maureen (08:46):

Yeah, I'm a visual learner, so I like visuals.

Amina AlTai (08:48):

I love this. Well I'm half Iraqi, half Welsh. I was born in the UK. I have four sisters and it's really interesting because, so I'm one of five girls and because my parents are such opposite ends of the gene pool as sisters, we represent the full spectrum of the gene pool as well. So it's kind of wild. Yeah, I'm the outlier of the family and that was an experience in and of itself. Like not just sort of like standing out ethnically in the area that I grew up in, but also looking a little mismatched in my family as well.

Jess (09:20):

Meaning they look,

Amina AlTai (09:21):

All my sisters are white passing.

Jess (09:23):

Okay. Yeah.

Amina AlTai (09:24):

Oh really? Okay. I'm the only brown sister. Wow. I'm the brown sister. Yeah.

Jess (09:28):

Okay. That's your next book. The Brown sister.

Maureen (09:31):

You got the beautiful brown skin.

Jess (09:33):

Okay.

Maureen (09:34):

All right. So that helps culturally too, just to understand your background and like how you were brought up to see ambition and what that looks like for you.

Amina AlTai (09:41):

Yeah.

Jess (09:42):

Did your sisters interpret ambition sort of in the same way? Is it like a five for five kind of thing or...

Amina AlTai (09:47):

We're all so different and I think it's a great sort of nurture versus nature experiment? Yeah, I think we did all interpret ambition a little bit differently. So I opened the book telling the origin story of my relationship to ambition, but it's a, there's a little more nuance in there than I've given you. So I'm one of five girls, but when I was six and my older sister was eight, she was diagnosed with type one diabetes and she was like super sick, like in and out of the hospital and I thought she was gonna die. And I just sort of interpreted in my childhood brain of like, our family is super stressed, you can't add weight. So I became what's known as the glass child, like the the child that is so self-sufficient, you can almost see through them. And I also started to take care of my younger sisters. So I took on this role of the caretaker, the perfectionist, the high achiever, because I thought that's what I needed to do. And so I think it really complicated my relationship to ambition. Whereas my older sister is like way chiller my, the sister after me is like, they're all way chiller. <laugh>. Yeah.

Maureen (10:49):

Okay. So this is thus why you had to write the Ambition Trap <laugh>.

Jess (10:53):

Yeah.

Amina AlTai (10:54):

And what's so interesting is I did a Vedic astrology reading last year before my book came out. Just like a little, let's just check in, see what the cards have to say or the stars have to say about the book. And one of the things that the reader said to me, they were like, ambition is exalted in your chart. And I was like, I could have told you that <laugh>,

Maureen (11:10):

Let me read the stars. Yeah.

Jess (11:11):

Yeah.

Amina AlTai (11:12):

He was like, if anyone is here to write the book on ambition, it's you.

Maureen (11:16):

So I think that like we started out saying, we both had this really positive idea of what ambition is. And then now you've said you've had a few different relationships with ambition. How do you get to then say, I'm gonna write this book?

Jess (11:28):

Hmm.

Amina AlTai (11:29):

So after my health crisis, I was working in marketing at the time and then I went back to school to study all the things was just like, okay, I've gotta get myself together. So I went to coaching, I went to nutrition school, as you do, I studied mindfulness, fanatics, all of these things. And then felt so much better was like, oh, it'd be so cool if I could teach these things. So a couple of years later I left my marketing roles and I put together my own curriculum and became a coach. And then I was doing that for 10 years. And then in 2020 at the height of the social justice uprisings, I ended up being, I don't know how it happened, but I ended up being the go-to coach for a lot of celebrity girl bosses who were canceled. And my book is not an analysis of cancel culture, I'm always really clear to say that because that's something else.

Amina AlTai (12:13):

But I was noticing these patterns around ambition that were alive in their life, that were also alive in mine, that were alive in my other clients' lives too. And I just put together this framework of like, oh, they could just be so helpful for all of us to look at our ambition and see where it's coming from. And then I happened to be teaching it a couple of years later to a completely different client and she was like, this should be a book. Do you wanna write a book? And I was like, I do. And she was like, my best friend who is also a Buddhist meditation teacher just became an agent. I feel like you need to know each other. And I was like, that sounds like my kind of person. Yeah,

Maureen (12:46):

It sounds like the stars were aligning. 

Amina AlTai (12:48):

Yeah, exactly. <laugh>. So the rest was history.

Jess (12:51):

Was the process of writing the book harder for you than you anticipated, even though you already sort of like had this framework?

Amina AlTai (12:57):

So every person that I spoke to and I'd had several clients write books, several friends write books and everybody's like, it is, it's a really hard process. Like one of my friends was like, Hey listen, I had to go on antidepressants during the process. It really stretched me. And I was like, okay, I hear you like it sounds like this is gonna be a lot. And it really was one of the most soul stretching experiences of my life because I think when you write a book that is really true to you, it asks you to be the work. And so every single day I had to be like, well can't fall in the ambition trap. Oh am I coming from a wound? Oh there's my control, there's my rejection every single day. And it was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my whole life. And I would never take it back for anything because it grew me in such a special way. But it was really hard. And I don't think of myself as a writer. I think of myself as a thinker but not a writer. And so for me it's like outside of my zone of genius. And so it was interesting to translate one zone of genius through something that's not a zone of genius. Okay.

Maureen (13:55):

What's a zone of genius <laugh>, I know what it is because I read the book, but tell us what a zone of genius

Amina AlTai (14:02):

Is. Yeah. So zone of genius is exactly what it sounds like. It's a space that you are off the charts brilliant and amazing where your gifts are innate and you don't have to push force or effort for that thing to come through. It just kind of readily flows through you. It doesn't mean that you don't like hone the skill, but there's a natural aptitude in gifts there. And the term was coined by Gay Hendricks who actually endorsed my book, which was so lovely.

Jess (14:25):

Oh, I will immediately be sharing this with my 15-year-old. He's gonna love Zone of Genius.

Amina AlTai (14:29):

<laugh>. Oh my god.

Jess (14:31):

He’ll interpret it in many different ways.

Amina AlTai (14:33):

So, so Gay Hendricks’ book is called The Big Leap and I recommend it for all my clients. It's literally one of the most beautiful transformative books. Everybody should read it. It should be required reading for adulthood.

Maureen (14:43):

Okay. The Big Leap. I might have to read it myself. So good. I'm still trying to be a grownup. Same. Jess, what do you think are your zone of geniuses?

Jess (14:51):

Oh, I knew you were gonna ask me that. Maureen <laugh>.

Maureen (14:53):

Um, well I know what I think you're zone of genius is.

Jess (14:55):

Well, I'll tell you like I wasn't a standout student in high school and it wasn't until I took a composition class in my senior year that I had a teacher really for the first time in my life, be like, you're natural. Wow. And since that time, like I was like, oh, I guess I have to be a writer then. 'cause that's just my zone of genius <laugh>

Amina AlTai (15:15):

<laugh>.

Jess (15:15):

And it's, I mean, it's taken, of course many, not everyone's zone of genius is as easy breezy as you described. But I mean, overall writing has become, and especially feature writing a place for me that a little bit easier than other parts of life. Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's yours Maureen?

Maureen (15:32):

Oh, I don't know. I was ready to still talk about yours. <laugh>. I, I wanted to say, I think your zone of genius is a part of that is the storytelling. Like how you can really get to the great stories that especially women have to share. And I'm always in awe of that with you. So I think that comes very naturally to you and it's just a place where I think you just shine naturally. And that is what I think your zone of genius is.

Amina AlTai (15:53):

That's gorgeous. <laugh>.

Maureen (15:56):

We love each other. Um, uh, can you tell <laugh> my zone of genius? I don't know if it's so clear cut as to be a, like a talent like that.

Jess (16:05):

But I think I know, but I'm not gonna say you say first.

Maureen (16:08):

Oh, I don't know. I feel like, I think like something I'm good at is that, what was the definition again?

Amina AlTai (16:14):

Yeah. Where your gifts are innate and what you're doing for each other is so helpful because sometimes when we don't know it ourselves, I give people the homework assignment of asking five people that really see you to reflect what they think your zone of genius is.

Jess (16:28):

I love that. We should, we should try that with multiple people.

Maureen (16:31):

All right, well what do you think mine is? Maybe it'll be easier for me to understand.

Jess (16:35):

I think you have a instinct and incredible ability to make things feel special and beautiful, whatever they may be like. Aw, if you're going to make your Thanksgiving table, it always has this like Maureen flavored uniqueness and specialness and <laugh>, whether it's decorating or entertaining or writing. It's like you bring out the beauty in the world and it comes to you very, I think naturally.

Maureen (17:02):

I think I am naturally drawn to that. I've always wanted to, in my work build community, especially among women, but in ways that show them how to have a beautiful life very easily. And I think that I wouldn't have said that as was my zone of genius, but I do think that is my natural instinct every day is to have a beautiful life in some way, shape, or form. So I'm glad that that translates Jess <laugh>.

Amina AlTai (17:27):

That's gorgeous.

Jess (17:29):

Tell us more about your zone of genius, Amina.

Amina AlTai (17:33):

Well, I actually wanted to just say that one thing that you said, you had said something of like, it doesn't come so easily for everyone. The, the wound and the gift are often paired and so sometimes there is tension there, right? And also sometimes we will readily discount what we're genius at because we can scarcely believe that the thing that we do with so much ease is valuable. Right? So when you were saying Maureen of like, you know, it's, I make everything beautiful, right? But it's just sort of second nature to me. Some people are like, is that even a zone of Yes, it's a zone of genius,

Maureen (18:01):

Right? That's what I was thinking, right? I was questioning that as a zone of genius.

Amina AlTai (18:06):

I don't know how to make anything beautiful. Please help me. Can I hire you? Right. <laugh> <laugh>. And, and so therein we see that it is a zone of genius because for other people they would look to you and say, that's so incredible. That's something that I can't do. And that's so valuable.

Maureen (18:19):

Well I'm loving all this genius among us, but yeah,

Jess (18:22):

No, but I, I wanna know more about your zone of genius.

Amina AlTai (18:26):

I think that my zone of genius, it's seeing other people's, and this is what makes me a great coach, is like people come to me when they're confused about like who they really are and how they express that through their purpose. And for me it's so easy to see people's gift that the no mud, no lotus part of that is like I can really give people third, fourth, fifth chances when maybe they don't deserve it, right? But I'm like, I see the greatness, we can do it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> <laugh>. And so you know, the wound and the gift are often paired

Jess (18:55):

The wound and the gift. Should we talk about the wound?

Amina AlTai (18:58):

Let's talk about the wounds. Yeah. Yeah.

Maureen (18:59):

I think that's a natural transition into what you talk about where ambition comes from in the book.

Amina AlTai (19:05):

Yes. So I think ambition is neutral and natural. I define it as a desire for more life, a wish to unfold. And that's inherent in every living thing on the planet. But there's two orientations of it. So we can have painful ambition, which is driven by our core wounds, which we'll talk about. And then there's purposeful ambition which is connected to our truth. And so there are five core wounds and a core wound for those that haven't heard that phrase before. But I feel like most people have that have spent their time in therapy, right? <laugh>, <laugh>, um, yeah. But a core wound is an initial injury of the psyche and they happen in our formative years. So you could have the best parents on the planet or be the best parent and each and every one of us is just gonna have one. It's just a human rite of passage.

Amina AlTai (19:46):

I hate to tell you I have three, you know, so you can have 1, 2, 3 or all five. So there are five wounds. And then for each wound we were a corresponding mask. So we have abandonment, rejection, humiliation, betrayal and injustice. So if you have an abandonment wound where you felt a sense of abandonment in childhood, the masculine wears dependence where this one doesn't show up so much with my clients in work, it shows up in their closest interpersonal relationships. So they're like overly reliant on one or two people. If you have a rejection wound, that's one of mine, the mask you'll wear is avoidance or withdrawal. So you'll avoid throwing your hat in the ring because you don't wanna feel that rejection again. Mm mm-hmm <affirmative> Then if you have a humiliation wound, which is where you felt like your caregivers were embarrassed of you or your identity was embarrassing growing up, you'll have a masochism or martyrdom mask.

Amina AlTai (20:35):

So that's where you're like, okay, let me be the hardest working person in the room. Let me carry the weight, let me do the thing. If we have a betrayal wound where we felt like our caregivers didn't live up to expectations, the mask will wear is control because we never wanna be let down again. And then the last one is injustice. And that's where we feel like our sense of individuality and childhood was restrained. And that could be in any way that you think about that, that could be across race, gender, individual attributes, what have you. Then the mask we wear is rigidity or perfectionism them.

Maureen (21:05):

Hmm.

Amina AlTai (21:06):

That's a lot.

Jess (21:08):

Woo.

Maureen (21:08):

Yeah. So that's a lot. And then I'm wondering if I have like the delusion wound <laugh> because I <laugh>,

Amina AlTai (21:15):

Tell me more about this.

Maureen (21:20):

Because I don't think I have any of those wounds. So when I was reading it, I was like, none of this is is hitting me. And so like some of the masks I can identify with, but maybe not the wounds. So I was wondering like maybe I'm just delusional, like why am I ambitious? Why do I think I can just do all these things? Like I don't know. So what about me who falls out of the five? Not to make it all about me.

Amina AlTai (21:44):

No, I think that's actually helpful.

Maureen (21:45):

I'm just curious if someone can't fit into one of those. And then I was like, am I just delusional? Like am I avoiding that I have a wound somewhere, but <laugh>, no.

Amina AlTai (21:54):

Well I think it's good to be a little bit de-lulu. Right, okay.

Maureen (21:56):

But, but I'll

Amina AlTai (21:57):

Take it when we can find our way in through the wounds, I always advise people to find their way in through the mask. It doesn't matter which way you find your way in, it doesn't even really matter the origin. We just wanna kind of track the behavior and notice where it's not supporting us and then choose something else. Okay. So which of the masks connected to you? So we have control, dependence, avoidance, perfectionism slash rigidity and martyrdom.

Maureen (22:19):

I would say perfectionism control more recently as an adult dependence of like the few people in my life that are closest to me probably. Okay. Like my husband says I love him too much.

Amina AlTai (22:30):

<laugh> hilarious. <laugh>.

Maureen (22:32):

Great. Well I do, I just, I feel this like intense appreciation and love for him as we've been, we've been together 26 years. So the longer we've built this life together, I know how precious that is. Yeah. And I really hold it like in very high esteem and regard. And I tell him all the time, he's just like, okay,

Jess (22:50):

Okay, I get it. I'm great. Yeah.

Maureen (22:52):

He gets it. Yeah, I love him <laugh>. But I would say definitely I think that's helpful to a reader who might not have been able to identify with the wound to identify with the mask. Yes. And so, all right, so now Jess, how about you? The wounds? What hit you?

Jess (23:07):

The wounds hit me more than the masks. I'm sorry, can you tell them again? Abandonment.

Maureen (23:12):

Abandonment. Yes.

Amina AlTai (23:13):

Abandonment, rejection, humiliation, betrayal, injustice.

Jess (23:17):

How do you describe injustice?

Amina AlTai (23:19):

When our individuality in childhood is restrained and that could mean any way, right? So like race, gender, in like you have a, a big personality and there's a lot of commentary on that, but your individual traits being restrained.

Jess (23:31):

I think like you probably, I am in a little bit of an amalgam crossing in those five somewhere. But I would say rejection. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Rejection, humiliation cocktail kind of thing going on there. <laugh>. Yeah,

Amina AlTai (23:45):

Me too. A little bit of betrayal. A a dash of injustice. Oh

Jess (23:49):

Good. Oh girl. Yes.

Amina AlTai (23:50):

Right. Exactly.

Jess (23:51):

A little dash of injustice. Yeah.

Amina AlTai (23:53):

And I think sometimes there can be like this race to the bottom to find the original injury. Yes. Yes. Yes. And if that helps you, great. And if it doesn't let it go. Right. We don't actually need to know that so much. And sometimes I think our bodies are super wise and they let us know when we are ready to know. But all we just wanna do is sort of clock the behavior that isn't serving us. Right. So control never served me well, it served me a little bit. Right. It serves us in our family system. It often gets us to safety. It's like an adaptive technique. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then there's a point in our life where it stops serving us. And so if that's the case, then we just wanna clock it and choose something else.

Jess (24:24):

It's interesting 'cause I've, I feel in my own life that my mom was the alpha in my family and she was the career person and was very much like gave us the messages. Like you make yourself indispensable at every job you're invested in. And that's how we derived our value. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. In a lot of ways. And it has served me really well in my career because I, I don't take no for an answer. I keep driving until I get there. If I lose a job, I get, I drive until I get a new one. You know, like that has served me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But I know that there's a flip side to that coin and that's the part that I'm curious about. Like if, let's say I can't identify myself with my job, what am I mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like that and there's just this like looming void that sits somewhere out there in the world. Yeah.

Amina AlTai (25:13):

The existential question of who are we beyond our work?

Jess (25:16):

Yes. Yes. So, but that's for part two, I guess, of a different podcast.

Maureen (25:19):

That's her next book.

Amina AlTai (25:21):

I love going there. So whenever you're ready. I am too.

Jess (25:25):

Okay. Okay. Well I think we

Maureen (25:27):

Can go there because I feel like something I said to my husband earlier today was like, what, who do you think is the most ambitious person? You know? And he was like, that's really hard to answer. And I said, well, like do you think ambition is a good thing or a bad thing then? And he was like, well I think that ambition without purpose is dangerous. Ooh. And that's, he gets it. Yes. But that kind of goes back to what Jess was just saying was like if she doesn't see herself in her work, like is the work worthwhile or is like, so that purpose part I think is something that's really, that I've taken away from this being entrenched in your book and talking about ambition recently is kind of the key, right? Is the having purpose.

Jess (26:04):

Well I wrote down the quote, you have ambition without healing is survival with a better outfit or something. With something along those lines. I don't have it right in front of me. Does that,

Amina AlTai (26:15):

Did I wrote that?

Maureen (26:15):

Yes, you wrote that. I love that. You don't know that.

Amina AlTai (26:17):

Did I really write that? Yes.

Jess (26:19):

Yes. Ambition without healing is survival with a better outfit.

Amina AlTai (26:24):

I really don't remember writing that.

Jess (26:26):

I had that written down. But anyway, it's really clever and cute. So you could just take credit for for it.

Maureen (26:32):

She did.

Amina AlTai (26:32):

If I said it, I have zero recall.

Maureen (26:34):

I'm looking at like underline parts of the book to see if I underline that. But you might have written it. I've written a few books and often I will forget things. They'll be like, oh, that recipe you wrote. And I'm like, that's not mine. And then I was just like, you're like I didn't do that. It's because you roll into more and more work after you've written this book. Like

Amina AlTai (26:49):

It's so true. Also, I'm in my midlife era and just the memory is not what it used to be. Just being very honest.

Maureen (26:55):

Yeah. We get you.

Jess (26:56):

We hear you. I think we're all driving at the same basic point that you can't think of ambition in isolation of all of the other parts. Right. The healing, the, the flip of that coin. So for you it was burnout and you had to then stop and sort of like rethink. But how do we get there if we don't have that burnout? Is it essential to get there? Or can we live in the trap? 

Amina AlTai (27:22):

We live in the trap until the trap stops working. Really, that's most of our route, right? I have an entire business built on people that lived in the trap and then they were like, Ugh, this trap sucks. I'm ready for something else. Basically. Right? Like kind of being in the trap their whole career, then getting to the top of the mountain, something happens, right? Either they get sick like I did, or they look around and they're just like, there is no contentment or joy at the top of this mountain because I lived chasing somebody else's dream and so now I want something else. So it doesn't have to be rock bottom right? Sometimes it can be a top of the mountain experience that feels like a rock bottom because it's so disconnected from who you are. But I think most of us live in the trap until we decide that we can't anymore. It's very rare that I meet someone that has not lived in the trap and usually they didn't grow up here. 'cause I think western culture has a propensity to encourage some of those trap like behaviors or some of the painful ambition behaviors like we've been talking about,

Maureen (28:15):

But a little bit different for women than men.

Amina AlTai (28:18):

Yeah. Well women and other historically excluded people experience an ambition penalty, right? So men and women enter the workforce with the same levels of ambition. Men are rewarded for theirs. Women, it's seen as a detractor. And if you are a person of color or a person with a disability, right? Other intersectionality, then we get dinged for our ambition. If you're an ambitious woman that negotiates her salary, you're seen as difficult, right? Women of color are actually the most ambitious cohort in corporate America, but experience the most headwinds. Hmm. And so yeah, it, we have a very tenuous relationship with it. We're told to take up space and speak truth to power. And when we do those things, we often get our hand slapped. Mm-hmm

Jess (28:55):

<affirmative>. We should stop here and talk about the money though, because I feel like it's such still a topic that women are uneasy with and that desire to get the money that we want and deserve. We're still sort of stuck on this point. Do you find that in your coaching?

Amina AlTai (29:13):

I do. It's so funny though. Clients that come back for like a second, third and fourth round, they're so kind of trained on it now that they're like, I asked for double and I asked for more. Like my work here is done. But yeah, as evidence by the fact that there is still a glaring wage gap, right? Yeah. Yeah. That to me is just so absurd, right? We are contributing the same, if not more, what we see with venture backed founders. Women actually have a a way more significant return, right? So it's like we're making all these contributions in terms of innovation into the workforce and driving things forward and we're still not pay parity, right? So I feel like there's a huge delta there. Yeah. There's so much work to be done. And a lot of it his mindset and nervous system and feeling like we can ask for that money, but also we're all experiencing so much systemic bias too. So a lot of the pushback I get is like, well who do you think you are to ask for that? And I'm like, well, I have to expand the bands for people that identify like I do otherwise we're gonna stay with this giant gap here. So when I was negotiating my book advance, like I was pretty bullish. I was like, this is what I need. And it felt very important to me because it wasn't just for me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like if we all keep accepting less, we're gonna perpetuate the less.

Jess (30:25):

Right?

Amina AlTai (30:26):

I actually have a client, they work in finance and they make really good money and they were telling me about how they ask their friend for friends and family discount. And I was like, no. I was like, you can afford to pay that person full price. You pay that person full price because you are reducing their rate. Right. You are perpetuating the wage gap. We can't do this to other people that look like us. Right.

Jess (30:45):

Yeah. I have a close friend and I won't say her name because we all know her and we're all, we all love her. She is ambitious in all things, even pickleball. There's a a face that she makes that I often point out to her because it's scary. But does ambition hit you in all the places of your life? Or are there parts of your life where you're just happy to hang out in the losers' lounge? <laugh>.

Maureen (31:08):

<laugh>.

Amina AlTai (31:10):

There's things that I'm like inherently not good at and I'm like so happy to be like really not good at this. I think also it's different pre rock bottom and post rock bottom. I think pre rock bottom, I was probably like your friend where I like needed to be good at everything. And it goes back to those core wounds of like, I did not feel valuable unless I was winning the thing or getting the accolade or the achievement. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And post rock bottom. I'm like, okay, I see where that was coming from. I don't need to do that. It actually kind of makes me laugh. So I went to NYU for undergrad and I have this core group of friends. We're still friends, but all of us are really ambitious and Tai FEI and competitive. And I remember one day we went to a Mets game and we're like looking for our gate and my friend was like, race you there? Like see who could get there first? <laugh>. And I remember being like, we're so nuts. Like we're all banana. And so I think post rock bottom, I'm a little bit different and I'm super happy to not be good at the thing. Like for example, for the last four years I've started lifting really heavy and I, one of my goals was like, I really wanna be able to do pull-ups. Like that's my goal. Mm. After four years I can do one, I can do one pull up. I'm in the, I'm in the losers' lounge.

Jess (32:22):

It's hard. Pull-ups are hard. It's really

Maureen (32:23):

Hard though. Yeah.

Jess (32:24):

It's hard. I'll give

Maureen (32:25):

You props for one. Yeah. And that's a lot more than most women can do.

Amina AlTai (32:29):

I'm happy to be bad at it. It's okay. You know, I

Jess (32:31):

Don't think you're bad at it. Oh,

Maureen (32:32):

I think that's pretty impressive. Yeah. I couldn't do one right now.

Jess (32:35):

I have to use the bungee to get me up there. So, and I, I lift weights too, even

Maureen (32:40):

At like the height of my athleticism, I could do three.

Amina AlTai (32:43):

That's incredible.

Jess (32:43):

Three is pretty good.

Maureen (32:45):

So just so you know, three. But that was at like, you know, it's

Amina AlTai (32:48):

Not our zone of genius.

Maureen (32:49):

It's not our zone of genius. Yeah. Yeah.

Amina AlTai (32:51):

It is not. Yeah. At the gym I joke, I'm like, I'm more of an athlete than an athlete.

Maureen (32:55):

I'm gonna be neither of those right now. Okay. So the trap, the trap is what, I mean, can we identify what exactly that is? That just like you said, when it doesn't serve you anymore,

Amina AlTai (33:07):

The trap is, is believing that we are both too much and not enough. The trap is the internalized bias, the core wound and what we experience sort of as the explicit bias in the world too. So basically the idea that like, hey, you can do the thing and you can have it all, but if you try to, we are going to punish you. Right. And so we wanna do these things. We wanna take up space, we wanna achieve the goal, but the pathway actually is a giant trap. Right. Like I refer to, I feel really, really blessed. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's like it's a both end. Right. I feel really blessed and really grateful that I got to work with a traditional publisher on my book. And I also think that working with a traditional publisher is an ambition trap. My editor was so wonderful and she was like, Hey listen, we think your book is evergreen and we don't expect you to hit your numbers in the first year. But the way that that business is designed, I think is an ambition trap.

Maureen (33:53):

Yeah.

Jess (33:54):

Yeah. Totally. I wonder as you were writing this or just thinking deeply about this, how much of it is systemically wrong with how we define success? Like how much of it is just like out of our control?

Amina AlTai (34:09):

Yeah, so I talk about this in the book too. I think a lot of how we define success in the west is more for Moore's sake, like more money and more power specifically. And we're always moving the goalpost, right? So the minute we achieve the money and the power in some small way, we're like, well let me get the next echelon

Maureen (34:24):

Next thing. Yeah. Right.

Amina AlTai (34:25):

In the book I talk about Sam Bankman Freed. Do y'all remember him? Yeah. Yeah. I was like kind of obsessed

Jess (34:30):

With this Bitcoin maybe. Yes.

Amina AlTai (34:32):

And it was so heavily covered in the news cycle when I was writing the book. So for those that don't know, Sam Bankman Freed was the founder of FTX and he built FTX on these risky trading practices. And he was hailed the boy wonder of crypto because he'd amassed wealth faster than almost anybody in human history. And he had such a rapacious desire to succeed and continue to be right. One of the fastest wealth growers in history that he built this company in the gray, let's say, and then ends up bankrupt in jail losing $11 billion of consumer funds and $8 billion of investor funds. Right. That's the classic example. That's the dominant paradigm of success of like the more money, more power, keep going, keep chasing. But I think that ambition and success is cyclical. I think it's like nature where you have, you know, a seedling of desire you wanna grow.

Amina AlTai (35:19):

So you drop the seed in the ground, like maybe you wanna write a book, maybe you wanna promotion, maybe you want to produce a new show. Then you nurture your inner and outer environment and you have this growth period and it's gorgeous. You have a peak moment in the sun, right? The book comes out, the show comes out, whatever, and then the season shift and the pedals fall off and you wind down and you go back underground. And maybe that ground is fallow till it's nurtured enough that you can rise again. But I think actually the most radical part of that reframe is that we all need to be in the cyclical nature together, right? Because a race to the top by ourselves is actually a race to the bottom. And if we're in the cyclical nature of ambition together we can create organizations with cultures of care and ethics and wellbeing.

Jess (35:59):

My Sam Bankman Freed was Elizabeth Holmes. I was obsessed with her. I read every Yeah. Bad Blood podcast.

Amina AlTai (36:07):

I mean it was wild.

Jess (36:08):

Everything about that story to me is the ambition trap. I mean there's also probably a little bit of sociopath stuff going on there, but

Maureen (36:16):

A little bit, yeah.

Jess (36:17):

<laugh>. Okay. Okay. But the fact that she like put on the turtleneck and deepened her voice and all the things, it's like we just want to win so badly <laugh>.

Amina AlTai (36:27):

I know. And, and when you're in a world that stacks the deck against you, right? It presses on the wound even more. When women only get 2.7 or two or 2.3 to 2.7% of VC funding. And those investment firms want you to grow so fast. So they want you to cut essential corners for growth. It's like that's part of the double bind, that's part of the trap.

Maureen (36:48):

But I still think that ambition is good because I feel, I mean I do in some way,

Amina AlTai (36:54):

You know, in and of itself.

Jess (36:55):

Yes.

Maureen (36:56):

Because I don't think I would have what I have if I didn't have some ambition.

Amina AlTai (37:01):

A hundred percent.

Maureen (37:02):

And yes, there have definitely been pitfalls and heartbreaks and you know, losses along the way. But if I don't have that ambition to get back up and go back out and do it again, then I feel like I'm just giving up. Yeah.

Amina AlTai (37:15):

Desire is

Maureen (37:16):

Beautiful. And so for me it's something that is a little bit healthy to have in my life because I don't know what I would be without it. Yeah.

Amina AlTai (37:25):

I think it makes us alive, right? Desire is a beautiful thing and it's natural. And I think that some of us, some of our desires get policed, particularly women, but I think desire shows that we are alive. I have desire for more life. I wanna keep growing. I'm human. I'm alive.

Maureen (37:39):

Yeah. Yeah. That's how I feel like more life. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And like Jess was saying, our des our ambition in our twenties changes from what our ambition is now. And it looks a little bit different. And definitely for sure I can say that for myself. Like what I was in that ambition trap of I'm gonna work the longest, I'm gonna work the hardest. I might not have the most innate talent, but I will be the hardest working person you've ever met. And yeah, did that burn me out in some spaces, definitely. But did it put me above, you know, some of the other people I was in competing against? Yes. So, I don't know, it's hard to know what that line looks like, but as I've gotten older, like I was saying to her yesterday, I was the one that cleared the deck every Friday. You know, my emails were always, my inbox was zero on Friday. I did everything before I left work. And now I feel like, eh, I'll get to it. I love that. Like it'll be okay if I don't, if I'm not the first person, you know, to the finish line. I think that I have a different perspective on what,

Jess (38:34):

When do you think that changed? Do you think it was when you were sick? Yeah. Or, yeah,

Maureen (38:39):

A hundred percent. So, uh, um, and I had a, a pretty scary health situation a couple of years back that dramatically changed my life. And so a perspective on everything has changed since then. And I think even ambition. But even with that, and I haven't even told you this yet, Jess, but some of our listeners will understand this storyline. But I was a competitive athlete. I got sick, I was unable to do that sport ever again. But on Friday I am taking a steering clinic, which puts me back on a boat, which I'm completely traumatized and terrified about because being on the water and in a boat was the last time I was totally normal. And so, and when I say normal, I had a brain injury that caused a spinal situation, which had me have four different surgeries. I lost my vision, I lost the ability to read, wrapping that up with a bow. I'm now back and, and working and doing things that I love, but I will get back on a boat this Friday. It's one of the things I've been most afraid about and I feel like, like my voice is shaking, talking about it. Yeah. But if I didn't have the ambition to just have my life back, I don't think I would do that. And I think I'd always be afraid of it. And I don't wanna live in fear. I wanna live more life.

Jess (39:47):

I'm proud of you.

Maureen (39:48):

Yeah. Thanks.

Amina AlTai (39:48):

That's an incredible story. You are incredible.

Maureen (39:52):

We'll see if I get on the boat, <laugh>. Yeah. I'm like just thinking about it. I have like in serious physical like visceral reaction to it. But I'm gonna try and that's all I can do.

Amina AlTai (40:04):

If you're interested, I work with a nervous system coach that has kind of changed my life. Like things that felt impossible, like in terms of fears or recovery, they've been like really transformative. I will send you their info in case you're interested.

Maureen (40:17):

Yeah. And that just amazing. Yeah, that would be amazing. But it just goes to show, it takes a village, right? It does. We all need a lot of support to get where we're going, whether we're ambitious or not. And we always ask our guests, like, as you go along in your work and your days, is there anything am gonna bet you have as like a mantra or a piece of advice that someone gave you along the way that you can share with our audience? Hmm.

Amina AlTai (40:42):

Okay. So I really love this one tattoo artist. And if I ever, I don't have any tattoos, but if I ever get a tattoo, I want a tattoo by this tattoo artist. Like they're just so incredible and they do Arabic calligraphy, but in this like the coolest way you have ever seen, like it's so beautiful. So if I ever got a tattoo, I would want this quote that says, everywhere you stand, be the soul of that place. That is sort of my mantra of like the days where I feel like really unrooted or untethered or my perfectionism is really loud or I'm really afraid. I just keep reminding myself like be the soul of this place. So I feel like that's something that I often come back to. Also, one of my biggest life hacks is whenever I feel like dysregulated or stuff is too much, I lay on the floor. And it is such a nervous system hack because one, you get all of this feedback across your back body from being on the floor. And then two, you're upheld and you're supported. So for high achievers that feel like they're carrying everything, the support of the floor is transformative. So if you're feeling wobbly, get on the floor.

Jess (41:47):

I love that.

Maureen (41:47):

I'm gonna be getting on the floor after this. Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah,

Jess (41:50):

I think

Maureen (41:51):

So. <laugh>

Amina AlTai (41:52):

Also, if you get on the floor under a weighted blanket, it's extra game changing. It's something special.

Maureen (41:57):

Amazing. Well this is game changing, A game changing way to look at what ambition is, why we have it. I'm gonna, the words in your book are super interesting and fun for anyone out there who's looking for a great read. Next I would pick up the ambition trap. And we are just so grateful that you spent this time with us to have this conversation and be so honest and generous with all of the information that you have. Is there anywhere that our listeners can go to find out more about you or that you want to send them to?

Amina AlTai (42:24):

Thank you so much for having me. This was such a delight. I love the two of your rapport. It's such lovely energy together. So thank you for inviting me into this. Thanks. And for those that wanna pick up the book, you can get it everywhere you buy books, whether that's national chain or your local indie bookstore, they may have to order it for you, but it's the ambition trap, how to stop chasing and start living. And then you can learn more about me at my website, amina altai.com or on Instagram at amina alai. And I'm sure the spelling will be in the show notes. <laugh>,

Maureen (42:53):

We will.

Jess (42:53):

You are fascinating and it was genuinely a pleasure to learn from you.

Amina AlTai (42:59):

Aw, thank you both so much. Right back at you. Well,

Maureen (43:01):

We cannot wait to see what you do next.

Amina AlTai (43:04):

Oh, thank you.

Maureen (43:05):

You too. <laugh>.

Amina AlTai (43:07):

Um, PS can we hang out? I love this. Yes. <laugh>,

Jess (43:11):

That conversation was so interesting because I don't think I've ever really taken stock of my healthy or not so healthy relationship with ambition. And I feel like we all sort of need to figure out where we stand. What does it mean for us? And you did that today. You're getting back in the boat.

Maureen (43:28):

Oh, well, we'll see. We'll see if I can step on it. But I am definitely pushing myself to do that. And I agree. I think that it was really interesting. First of all, I don't think I've ever said ambition so many times in my life, <laugh>. But I think that it is important for us to all kind of, like you said, take a step back, reevaluate what ambition is in our life and if it's a healthy thing for us or not. And I think that's my big takeaway, right? Is that something I always thought was good. Maybe in some ways isn't so good, but yeah.

Jess (43:57):

And if it's not so good, go lay on the floor.

Maureen (43:59):

Yeah. All right. I'm gonna go lay on the floor and reevaluate Ambition <laugh>.

Jess (44:03):

Okay. Me too. Bye.

Jess (44:06):

She What? comes to you from Real Woman Magazine, a product of Capital Health. This episode was produced by Leigh Iacobucci with Music by Epidemic Sound.

Maureen (44:16):

Please, please leave us a rating and review. We want the show to be so great and we need you to help us do that. So follow, subscribe, and next time bring your friends too. Until then, I'm Maureen Petrosky.

Jess (44:28):

And I'm Jess Downey.