Bogbean Buckmoth: Bold and Beautiful

 In this episode of 'Rarefied,' host Meredith Meeker introduces listeners to the Bogbean Buck Moth, an endangered, brightly patterned, daytime-flying moth reliant on wetland habitats. With guest Peter Soroye, the Biodiversity Outreach Coordinator at Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, the podcast delves into the moth's distinct characteristics, specialized habitat needs, and the conservation challenges it faces due to habitat loss and environmental changes. Peter discusses the important role of Key Biodiversity Areas (KBAs) and collective conservation efforts in Canada, emphasizing community science and the need for continued stewardship. The episode bridges scientific insight and practical conservation efforts, illustrating the importance of protecting even the smallest and rarest species to maintain ecological integrity. 

00:00 Introduction to Rarefied Podcast 

00:33 Meet the Bogbean Buck Moth 

01:06 Special Characteristics and Habitat 

08:56 Challenges and Threats 

15:59 Conservation Efforts and Community Science 

19:06 Key Biodiversity Areas (KBAs) 

24:54 Scientific Rigor in KBA Methodology 

26:25 The Importance of the Bog Bean Buck Moth 

28:35 The Rivet Analogy and Biodiversity 

31:55 Balancing Science and Conservation 

41:02 Field Memories and Motivation 

44:24 Hope for Conservation 

46:39 Conclusion and Farewell 

Transcript

Theme Song 0:00

In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy. Let's listen close, let's take a stand, to keep the wild across the land. In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy.

Meredith 0:23

Welcome you found us. Let the adventure begin. This is Rarefied, the podcast where we're going to learn to love some of our rarest and most imperiled species. I'm your host Meredith Meer, and this week's episode we are learning about an endangered moth. But you won't need your flashlight for this expedition. No, we're actually talking about a striking, bold and beautiful daytime flying moth. The bog bean bug moth. The Bogbean Buck Moth is a bit of a mouthful, but its name actually makes a lot of sense. Bogbean is a wetland plant that this species of buck moth relies on. Sometimes scientists are just way too literal when they're naming species. The Bogbean buck Moth is considered critically imperiled in both Canada and the United States. This moth can only be found in two places in Canada, both in Ontario and in wetlands in upstate New York. The species has yet to be formally described, so it's unclear whether or not it's a distinct species or a subspecies, but either way, it's extremely rare. One of the two places it's still found in Ontario is just a 30 minute drive from my house, and the last time I was there, I was in search of birds and had no idea it was home to such a special moth. But if I'm lucky, I'll be able to get this week's guest to go back and look for the bog bean buck moth with me this fall. So let me introduce this week's guest and hopefully my future tour guide Peter Schier. Peter is the key biodiversity areas assessment and outreach coordinator at Wildlife Conservation Society Canada. In his role, he works to coordinate the identification and outreach around key biodiversity areas, including the two that are home to the Bogbean Bach Moth. Previously Peter completed a PhD at the University of Ottawa studying the effects of climate change and land use change on bumblebees. And the utility of community science programs like iNaturalist for Conservation Research, which we've already talked a lot about on this podcast. So I'm so excited to have Peter here. Let's get into it. Awesome. Thank you. And all right, we're talking about the bog bean buck moth, a little bit of a mouthful and maybe not the most familiar species to everyone. So could you give us a little primer on what it is and do you have a fun nickname for this, the creature?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 2:55

Yeah, I guess bogbean buck Moth is definitely a bit of a tongue twister. This might be a fun episode to track how many times we slip up. I I guess we could call it BB for short. That might be a fun one. But Bogbean Buck Moth is this really beautiful pretty large day flying moth. So it's, it's, it's pretty large. I think it gets around like five centimeters, like. 10 centimeters to in its wingspan. It's this really unique kind of like zebra striped pattern of black and white. But then it has these like orange highlights on it, kind of like the end of its abdomen and and sometimes on and on the rest of its body. So it's this really like distinctive, really beautiful moth. It flies in the day, so it's easy to see. And it's it's really special in a couple of ways and happens to be to be quite threatened in Ontario.

Meredith 3:45

So what are some of the special ways, or what are the ways they're special? Yeah,

Peter Soroye (he/him) 3:49

Yeah, well, I guess they're hyper specialist. So bog bean buck moth it's a, it's a type of buck moth is kind of the larger family of moths that it's from. And it's a specialist on bog bean which is a plant, a wetland plant that's found across a fair amount of or across a fair amount of the continent. But bog bean buck moth is specialized as a larvae for a lot of its larval period, it only eats only eats bog bean. And so it's really restricted to these wetland habitats, these fen habitats that are that have bog bean. And it's not even found in all the places where there are bog beans. In Canada, it's only found in a handful of spots in that happened to be in Ontario. It's found in a few more places in the U S but it's a really threatened species because it's, it's so rare and so specialized.

Meredith 4:35

Okay. A couple of things I want to talk about, actually, I want to go back to when you were giving us like the primer on the bog bean buck moth you said it's a day flying moth, can you break down the difference between like a moth and a butterfly? Like, why is it a day flying moth, but it's still a moth. It's not a butterfly.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 4:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, good, good catch. Yeah. So lepidoptera is the larger family of like moths and butterflies. And generally, you know, a safe distinction between butterflies and moths is that butterflies will tend to fly in the day. They're diurnal species and most moths tend to fly at night. And so you might see butterfly catchers are well known for, like, running around with butterfly nets and people who are into moths, you might, people might be, might have seen this before, but people will put sheets up at night and put a flashlight shining on, like, a white sheet and this is the same effect that, like, when you, when you come into your house at night and you have, like, a light on, you'll see all these moths going around on the wall or on the light and so people who study moths will usually set up, like, this kind of sheet at night and it'll attract all these night flying moths to it. So generally, that's a pretty safe distinction between moths and butterflies, but there are some moths who who do fly in the day as well. And so a better distinction you can tell by kind of how fuzzy they are is a good is a good measure. Moths tend to be super fuzzy. They have really fuzzy antenna that split off into a lot of different kind of sub substructures that tend to be really feathery. Whereas butterflies always have these really like a TV antenna, like just straight with a little little bob at the end. And there are a couple of other distinctions, but if you're looking at one, that's that's a pretty safe way to talk.

Meredith 6:07

Okay, awesome. Thank you for that. And then the other thing I want to talk about going back to your other answer about how they're specialized, because I guess maybe not many people will know that. have lots of wetlands here. Well, less than we used to, but we still have lots of wetlands here in Ontario, but not every wetland. the same. So these are a fen species or a bog species or cause I'm like bog bean, but maybe they're in both.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 6:38

Yeah, good. Another good distinction. And to be honest, this isn't why the, the fen, bog, swamp, wetland, marsh all these are, wetland is kind of a general term that we use to describe kind of different particular types of ecosystem which can be broken down into fens and bogs and marshes and swamps. And I'm sure there's a couple of other terms. And generally they relate to. how water kind of flows through these ecosystems.

Meredith 7:05

Okay, here's a really quick primer on the different types of wetlands. So we have bogs fences, marshes, and swamps here in Ontario. Bogs have deep peat deposits. They can go up to 10 meters and they receive water and most of their nutrients from precipitation. Whereas fences are still peatlands, they might have a little bit less, usually around 40 centimeters of peat, and they get their water from more varied places. And that's primarily, or can be primarily groundwater. And then we've got our other two, marshes and they tend to be. Dominated by like those grassy cattails. They can have fluctuating water depths. Um, and they don't have any pea in them. Same with swamps. Uh, but rather than being dominated by that vegetation, that's kind of grassy, they're dominated by trees. So that's a really quick summary on our Ontario wetlands. Now back to Peter.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 8:09

And so it seems like really small distinctions, but they tend to have, they can have pretty big impacts on what species are able to grow there, especially when you start factoring in things like the substrate, whether there's, you know, a really porous substance underneath or something that's going to block, stop the drainage of water and things like that. And so wetland, you know, when we think of a wetland, we usually, we think of, you know, they all kind of look the same, but they're actually really different when you get into those granular levels of detail, and it can have big implications on what species are found there.

Meredith 8:39

so they can be very specialized and it sounds like, yeah, specialized habitat and then food source within that habitat. So this is a particular creature from what I'm hearing from you.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 8:53

Very, very picky. Very picky.

Meredith 8:56

Is that why it's threatened or what are the threats that are facing the moth?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 9:02

Yeah. So a big reason it's threatened is because it's so specialized. It's, you know, even if it were super, super abundant and doing fine, it would still only be found in a couple of these, you know, very specialized ecosystems with this plant. And so that's a big reason why it's so threatened. The other reason is is habitat loss. So you know, wetlands over the last couple of decades are Yeah. Have have been degraded or destroyed or removed and a lot of places across Ontario and really across all of North America. They're they're a hard ecosystem to you know, an easy one to remove when, when we think about, like, development or they're not the most aesthetically pleasing ecosystem for a lot of people or the most easy ecosystem to recreate in either. So often they're you know, they're not thought about when we think about protecting ecosystems or, or environmental spaces. So a lot of habitat loss has resulted in kind of the loss of a lot of wetlands that might have held buckbean, bugbean, buckmoth in the past.

Meredith 9:57

doing a little bit

Peter Soroye (he/him) 9:58

and Terms of other things, things like invasives also.

Meredith 10:01

mention

Peter Soroye (he/him) 10:02

So invasives, invasive species, invasive plants,

Meredith 10:05

that's where we're at

Peter Soroye (he/him) 10:06

can, you know, really also

Meredith 10:08

going

Peter Soroye (he/him) 10:08

Change the entire balance of an ecosystem, especially a sensitive 1, like a wetland where things are often really precarious in terms of, you know, it's a fine line of, like you mentioned with kind of nutrient deficiencies or differences between other. Ecosystems and the introduction of of invasive species can really kind of tip the balance and start to reshape what that ecosystem looks like. So managing invasives and are another or invasive species are another another factor threatening. These and pesticides potentially as well, and kind of agriculture influencing agricultural and surrounding areas of wetlands, influencing the hydrology of those wetlands as well. So you know, thinking of water being drawn away from a wetland to be able to supply. Agricultural environments and spaces. So it's, you know, kind of interesting that, you know, that those agricultural those wetlands might exist alongside our cultural environments, but those agricultural spaces could still have an impact on on species like bog bean, buck moth and others in the wetland.

Meredith 11:06

And wetlands are such a sponge and filter too. So if things, if pesticides, or, you know, like we talked about the nutrient system in wetlands can be quite delicate. If there's dumping from agriculture into these spaces, you could really affect the function of them as well. So Is bog bean a fairly common species, or is that also rare?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 11:31

Yeah, that's from what I understand. Bog bean is not a super, it's not a very rare species. It's still, you know, it's kind of restricted to wetlands as well, but it's, it's not as rare as bog bean buck moths are. So there's still a lot of like wetlands that have bog bean where we don't, where we've never recorded presence of, of the moth. And so that's an interesting thing. There's like some other factor as well. That's like limiting these, these moths to the, to the particular areas where they're found.

Meredith 11:56

Yeah, I mean, it could definitely be that element of pesticides or some of those other compounding things that you were talking about, because I bet this isn't the only species we've seen. Like, monarch, obviously, is a big banner species for pollinators and endangered species, and their host plant, milkweed. Super abundant and, and really common. So it's not the host plant that's, you know, threatening the population, at least not in its whole range. Maybe there's other places along their route or their migration where maybe that's more of a limiting factor, but,

Peter Soroye (he/him) 12:31

Yeah.

Meredith 12:32

Yeah, so that's interesting, like between host plants and species, and they're not always totally linked.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 12:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's actually a really fun comparison as well. Like monarchs, you know, another leopard out there. But one that has a really incredible ability to fly across long distances. And so that's kind of an additional surprise where sometimes we have like. You know, areas of milkweed that monarchs are not getting to or can't inhabit when we know that, you know, they're flying a couple of hundred kilometers or, you know, tens of kilometers is not a huge deal to most monarchs. But for bogbean buckmoth, they're very not, they don't have those same flying capacities as something like a monarch does. And so that's, they're, you know, kind of another layer of why they're so threatened is that it's really hard for them to leave and kind of colonize new spaces or to, to. You know, for populations to be reinforced by another by another source of or another population. So the larvae, you know, tend to wander around the same clump of plants their whole life and obviously never leave the fender caterpillars and pretty hard for them to move. And the adults as well, like, rarely leave the fan where they've been where they were born. So. It's really hard for them to reach these new spaces as well.

Meredith 13:43

And I'm assuming since they're not migratory species, these moths are overwintering here as well. So are they overwintering as. Eggs, or like, did the adults die off every year? What's their lifespan kind of like, or their life cycle?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 14:01

Yeah, yeah, they tend to, so this species tends to overwinter as eggs. So they'll emerge from the eggs in the spring. They'll spend the spring, the rest of the spring, the summer as the larval stage. They'll go through a couple of instars or kind of caterpillar phases. Where they'll, yeah, you know, eat as much as they can. As caterpillars do mostly on bog bean, they will eat some other plants if they, if they need to but for, for especially a certain period of that larval phase, it's really only bog bean that they and then in the fall, kind of like mid to late September is when they'll going to the chrysalis emerge as a moth and then it's only for a couple of days that the adults tend to live for. So which is also just like, absolutely wild. I think males live for a couple of days and they'll fly around and try to try to find a female and reproduce as many times as they can. The females usually, I think, live for about 24 hours. So they're kind of up, they'll mate and then they'll lay eggs and and and die. And that's it. So it's. Yeah. You know, like a lot of butterflies and insects, it's this insane phase of, like, living for so long as a, as an egg or a larvae, and then you have only a few days to really make that whole thing count.

Meredith 15:10

Okay, so if you're wanting to spot one of these in the wild, you've got to really Short window, and you've got to really know where to look like.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 15:18

It's a tough, yeah, they're a tough find. They've been on my list for for a couple of years now to try to find because they're, you know, when they're, when they're out, I think there's a period of usually about two weeks where it's. you know, the adults tend to be kind of successively emerging and you have a fair chance of spotting them if you can find a place where they are. And they're so, they're fairly large, they're really distinctive. So if you're in a place where they are and you happen to overlap with that period I think I've heard you have a pretty good chance of finding them. But it's, yeah, it's about going there at the right time. If you're away, you know, away for a week it can be you know, there's, there goes your chance for the year. So a fun thing if you're into, into looking for bugs and insects, but Maybe not a beginner species to go out and look for.

Meredith 15:59

Does iNaturalist or like Citizen Science help tracking these species or is it there's just so few spots you can do some decent monitoring? look like? I guess is what I'm

Peter Soroye (he/him) 16:15

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. And this is a fun species to ask that for because they are found in literally a handful of places. I think there are literally two places in Canada where the species is found. And so within Canada, within Ontario, or at least that we know that it's found. So you know, with that in mind, it's pretty easy for like researchers know where it is. They've looked in other places as well and not found it. And so it's pretty easy to do kind of consistent monitoring in those places where we know it is. But the thing about community science is that even if the species is a pretty hard one to find even in the places where it is, if there are enough people looking for it you know, maybe it's in places that we haven't looked. So the power of community science, specifically in terms of this species, is that, you know, if enough people are out looking for Looking for things with iNaturalist and and photographing them and submitting them. And if enough of them are kind of aware of, like, what a bug being buckmoth is it's distinctive enough that I think the iNaturalist algorithm would catch it pretty immediately as well. Then there's a good chance, you know, that we might find it in a place where we didn't expect to before. So I think that's a really fun thing. Often we talk about community science in the context of species like monarchs or birds where they're easier to find. They're easier for people to go out and look for species. And we have through community science, a good chance of figuring out when species are getting to places earlier in the year or kind of when they're moving around and figuring out the outside of the outside of their ranges in that way. With this species, there's, you know, it's fun because, you know, if a community science The community scientist finds the species outside of one of the two places we know it is all of a sudden. It's it's range is increased by a pretty huge amount in Canada. So so, yeah, community science. I'm a huge fan of my naturalist. I've done some some research on it. And in my PhD, I use it a lot in my work with wildlife Conservation Society, Canada, and it's a really powerful tool for for a lot of species and even threatened species like this.

Meredith 18:04

I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me too, especially since a lot of wetlands are on private property. So knows how accessible they are. And then also the accessibility of wetlands can be tricky. You know, I feel like it's a lot easier to go for a walk in a trail under like a forest canopy than, you know, usually you need. Boardwalks, which can be so expensive and all these things to get access to wetland. So yeah, hopefully, you know, maybe that could be in the future a community scientist finding a new population. I know I did an episode on wood poppies and they totally think that there could be more populations. there on private property and there's, they also have a really short window where they're identifiable.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 18:50

Mm hmm.

Meredith 18:51

there's some overlap there yeah, you're with wildlife conservation society. So what kind of work are you guys doing to help I guess, the extinction or, you know, the loss of this species?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 19:05

Yeah. So with Wildlife Conservation Society, Canada, I work on our Key Biodiversity Area or KB18. And so this is a really fun project that is, is how I first learned about bog bean buckmoth actually. The Key Biodiversity Area, the KB project is about identifying some of the most important places for biodiversity, for nature across the country and really across the globe. It's part of this international program to, to do the same thing across every country in the world. So we're identifying places like Like Marlboro Forest, which is one of the two spots, or White Lake Wetlands, which is the other spot that Bug and Buck Moth is found in Canada. We're identifying these places and trying to recognize the importance of them as part of this international thing. And the idea is that we're

Meredith 19:44

provided

Peter Soroye (he/him) 19:48

you know, among the most important for, for biodiversity in some way or another, either of these places, if they were lost, all of a sudden we've lost 50 percent of buckbeam, of bogbeam buckmoth in Canada. So these are pretty clear exceptional places for, for biodiversity, but they're not places that you know, they're not the Gatineau Park or the Banff. National park or wood buffalo or stuff like that. There are a lot of places that get a lot of attention that we know are really important. But but these places are in a lot of ways, just as important as any other as any other of those kind of. Big you know, poster children parks or or natural areas. So KBS are really exciting that we're, you know, we're shining a light on a lot of these under recognized places. And that's what the goal of by highlighting this information, making it available to the public and making it available to others. This information biodiversity areas across the country is something that can feed into. land use planning and protected area planning and helping make sure that we're considering the most important places for biodiversity when we, when we look at conserving biodiversity in Canada and making decisions.

Meredith 20:53

That sounds really important, especially if it can lead to, know, awareness, but also land management practices that will secure these places for the long term because you're, you're identifying these areas KBAs. But after identification, it's. organization doesn't have the power to be like, this is now a protected area, but it gives, I guess, justification for why maybe the provincial or federal government should want to protect these areas.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 21:27

Exactly, yeah, we're trying to, we're really, these KBAs are giving people one more tool in their toolboxes to help steward areas, conserve them. Sometimes that might be getting, you know, some type of protected area status. Other times, places are already being protected by local caretakers or indigenous communities and other ways. So a lot of times, maybe a KBA will just be something to help get. more funding for monitoring or stewardship and stuff like that. So it's really exciting. You know, some of these KBAs are well known areas. Some of them are, are known to local communities and not known to kind of the broader public yet. So one of the things that we're doing as we identify these sites is it's not just WCS Canada, Wildlife Conservation Society, it's not just Birds Canada or NatureServe, it's we're working with local naturalist groups and trying to work with First Nations and working with other NGOs, and so the idea is we're trying to create these little networks around each site as well or help bring together or, or some cases these networks are already there and just trying to make sure this isn't just It's, you know, writing in a book, putting on a website, these places are important. It's also, you know, giving that tool to people and making sure they know this is another, another lever they can pull on and another thing they can use for, for conservation.

Meredith 22:35

Really important because, yeah, we need all the tools in our tool belt to fight this biodiversity crisis. And also, I think that's great that it's a tool that other people can use to. You know, better take care of or or the resources so that they can steward the land in a, in a way that they want I know you've mentioned Marlboro forest, which you might be my closest geographic guests that I've had so far, because I've, I've been there, I didn't know, I mean, it was also June, so I wouldn't have seen them, but maybe we should plan a fall field trip and, and try and go and find these moths because that would be, cool in Marlborough Forest. I do think it's a really special place, and that was even before we had this conversation. Else goes into a KBA other than, like, an endangered species, or how do people decide where these areas are?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 23:30

Yeah, yeah. So there are a couple of KBA criteria. And the idea of KBAs is that they cover, or they try to cover all sorts of biodiversity. So it's not just about threatened species. It's also really geographically restricted species, species that are only found in a couple of areas, but maybe are not. You know, threatened or in decline yet. It also highlights areas that are important for for gathering for for gatherings or the life cycle of the species. So places like like long point where, you know, that's there are essential migration, migration points and stopover points and things like that for, you know, a dozen different birds and for species like monarchs and things like that. But also, you know, other other sites are being identified for like fish spawning areas and things like that, where. Okay. You know, that site might not hold a huge proportion of a species population at any given moment, but a species really relies on that site for a particular part of its life cycle and for for its natural history. So it's, they're identifying a couple of really important sites for species in that way. They're also identifying, KBs are also identifying sites that are important for ecosystems. And then in the next couple of years, we're working on sites that are important for the broader ecological integrity of of landscapes as well. And that's like, that's a type of KB that Canada is really at the cutting edge as well of developing, like, the methods for how to identify what that means and how do we include. Indigenous values and perspectives and knowledge into into our understandings of ecological integrity for that type of work as well. So so that's a really exciting elements of KBAs. But at the moment, it's yeah, a lot of sites for species at the end of the day KBAs are a really scientifically driven tool, really data driven tool. So there's a really, there's an internationally consistent methodology and set of standards that we follow. And that's really interesting. It means that the way that we identify KBA for my rural forests it's the same way it's being done in Mozambique or Australia or South Africa or any other place in the world. So that's a really cool element of the KBA process. And it adds a lot of, a lot of scientific rigor. There's this, you know, scientific assessment that goes into each site. There's a review by stakeholders and rights holders and other people around each site. And so it adds a lot of credibility and a lot of legitimacy to, to the information. And makes it a really a site that's a source of information that's easy to trust and easy to use in a bunch of different contexts.

Meredith 25:44

Being able to have data to back up a decision can be so important, it also sounds like. You know, the criteria, so bog, bean, buck might be like one thing that goes into deciding whether it's a KBA, but it'll, habitat loss is a huge issue for so many species. So these areas, like, maybe there's a lot of like bang for your buck. Type thing, bang for your buck moth in protecting these areas. I guess that's another question, like, obviously, like, a lot of work is going into protecting this moth. Like, why should people care about the bean buck moth and, like, why should this effort be put in to, like, make sure that, you know, we don't lose this species from, from our province and from Canada.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 26:41

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. It's a good question that that gets brought up a lot in conservation. Because it's, you know, we're focusing on on a huge amount of species that some people have never heard before. And things like bog, bean, buck, moth, which is found in 2 places in Canada. What's it, you know, will it really be that bad if we lose it is I think, you know, legitimate question. You know, the answers that come to my mind is that. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a biologist, so obviously I'm really biased and someone who really loves being out in nature and exploring, whether it's camping or hiking or canoeing or out with my camera or, you know, just lying in the grass somewhere. So for me, like a really, you know, really compelling argument is just that this is a really cool piece of life, of nature, of biodiversity, a really cool piece of our planet that is only found in a couple of places in Canada. To me, that's like. Enough reason to, to want to want to protect these species. And another way they're, they're also important indicator species. You know, these are indicating some really particular combination of, of ecosystem, of biotic, of ecosystem, ecosystemic and biotic and a biotic factors. So, you know, these bog bean buck moths might not to people who don't like butterflies gasp or moths you know, that. Okay. They might not be hugely, hugely attractive, but they represent a really important ecosystem or a really important habitat that is a unique combination of things and of life history and of evolutionary history for the planet as well. So maybe that's a good reason too. I think, you know, one of the most, one of my favorite kind of comparisons or like arguments for, for trying to save biodiversity, even when you get down to really weird niche species like this is that we don't always know what they do either. You know, we don't always know all the different ways that, that species are linked together, that that all the different interactions between, you know. Species in their environments and other species. And so, you know, one of the famous comparison is that losing biodiversity, losing species is like popping rivets off of an airplane while you're in it. And so, you know, you can probably get away with popping off maybe a dozen rivets, maybe two dozen rivets. But do you really want to be popping them off when you, while you're flying? You know, that's doesn't seem like a really great idea. Probably should probably should keep them all and not pop off anyone. If you want to be safe. So that's how I think about it a lot as well. You know, maybe, maybe Bogbeam Buckmoth would disappear from Canada. Maybe it will. And maybe you. You know, the average person won't notice or, but maybe we will, maybe there'll be a, you know, a lot of other species that are impacted by that as well. So I think it's, you know, saving these species, protecting them avoiding that loss of these critical sites and avoiding the loss of these species isn't something that's, that's super difficult. It's really a matter of it's not something that's in conflict with a lot of our other goals as well and you know, our need to build houses or develop other infrastructure and things like that. It's really all about doing that in a smart way that considers the environment, that considers biodiversity and species like this. So we don't have a lot to lose, you know, to be going out of our way a little bit to protect these species and avoiding their loss. And we potentially have a lot to gain by, by keeping them around.

Meredith 29:49

I have never heard that analogy before, and I really like it. And I'm definitely stealing it for, for future conversations. Cause I think it's brilliant. And similar to what you're saying, like, we don't know what else we'll lose if, if we lose this moth, I think about. Like there's some species of wasps down in the Amazon, and there's, even know how many species of wasps, but there's one wasp for each species of fig, and if you lose that wasp, then you lose that fig. And there's a lot of research that's gone on down there. So you really don't know what interactions are at risk. And so, yeah, I don't, I don't want to lose any rivets. I like my planes intact and to land safely. Yeah, let's, let's keep all our rivets. I guess for people who are on the fence, or like you said, maybe don't love butterflies or moths, like, do you have a favorite thing the bog bean buck moth that you're like? If people knew this, maybe they would think that this moth was like, cool, and maybe that would sway them.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 30:52

Dang. I mean, they're, they're beautiful species. I really encourage anyone to like to Google to Google what they look like, because they're, they're really gorgeous. And I think if, you know, people saw them, they'd be like, damn. Okay. You know what? Maybe this one is okay. We can keep this one around. I think otherwise, I mean, I'm I come from a background of studying, like, bumblebees and butterflies a little more generally. And I think people are usually familiar with, like, how important pollinators they are that, you know, bumblebees and butterflies are in general. I think you know, bog green buck moth. Yeah, very cool species. I'd really. hinge on the hinge on the hinge on the aesthetic beauty of it.

Meredith 31:27

Well, especially for a moth, right? Like, I think moths kind of get the reputation of being like, kind of small, drab things that fly around at night, so when you have this, like, striking zebra pattern, not pattern, but like, black and white, like, really striking like, that stands out, and people should take notice of it.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 31:47

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I agree.

Meredith 31:50

And you work for a conservation organization, but you're also a scientist. Do you find there to be a challenge in balancing like scientific research and conservation efforts? Or do you find that they go really well together?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 32:06

Oh, interesting. How do you How do you mean in terms of

Meredith 32:10

Like the, cause sometimes science. Wants to answer specific questions, and then how do you move those answers into conservation? I feel like sometimes there can be a bit of a push and pull for, science for science sake and keeping that science integrity and then also wanting science to forward, you know, science based decision making. So there can be a bit of a, conflict or sometimes maybe not conflict, maybe prioritization. Of like, what do you focus on?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 32:45

Yeah, yeah, that's a really great question. Yeah, I think it's fun. It's fun having been on both sides, having had the opportunity to be on both sides of that because I did a PhD not too long ago. I graduated in December 2021. So it's still pretty fresh in my mind. And I really loved it. I was, you know, looking at big questions about how climate change and habitat loss are influencing pollinators, especially bumblebees. And it, and it felt when I was doing that as if, oh yeah, this is stuff that it's, that's really immediately applicable in a lot of ways. And then I started to work at Wildlife Conservation Society Canada on this program that is also pretty big scale. And is also about protecting species from biodiversity loss and providing information about, about how to protect species in the face of different threats. And I realized how the work that I was researching was really not as applicable as I thought it was. And I think you see that divide a lot is in in academia and and kind of the research, the more research focused institutions and organizations but especially thinking of academia there's often this push and I think a lot of it is just based on how research tends to be funded with these kind of big ideas and kind of pushing forward scientific approaches and scientific methodologies and scientific ideas. You know, there's often this disconnect between what academics think is really applicable and what, you know. It people in conservation organizations think is is applicable. Where and that work, you know, even the work I'm doing is pretty pretty high level above the ground. And so if you look at organizations that are doing things like reintroducing different butterfly species and stuff like that, you know, the research needed to really benefit work like that. Is even more kind of is even more fine scale. And so, yeah, I think there's sometimes this disconnect between those two, these two schools or fields. I think there's a lot, especially recently you know, I'm not I don't know the whole the whole fields. And I think some places are probably really well integrated. I think more and more. There's a bigger. Recognition and kind of acknowledgement of that disconnect and how research needs to or researchers who really want to make research applicable should be working a little more closely with with conservation organizations and people more directly implementing a lot of a lot of conservation work. So I think there's a bigger recognition that more of that happening. But it's it's tough on both sides on on the academic side. It's easy to be disconnected a little bit and kind of pushed along by some of the demands of funding structures of, you know, institutions and universities and the way they run is, you know, it's Easy to kind of silo if you're if you're focused on that and not, you know, it's hard to get the time to to build outside of those structures and likewise in conservation organizations. I think a lot of them are Really under capacity in a lot of ways and doing really, really incredible work. But, you know, Probably anybody you ask at a conservation organization can use two or three more people on their team to keep doing the good work that they're doing. So it's also, you know, they don't have the time necessarily to always kind of reach out to academics and try to translate what they're doing and research what they're doing. So, yeah, I think there's these disconnects, but it's surmounting them. Some people do it, and I think that's where a lot of magic happens.

Meredith 35:58

yeah, I guess definitely when science and conservation organizations do you know, get together and, and work on things like truly changes can happen, but that is interesting to the perspective of, of resources and where they're going and how that can make kind of them meeting together a bit more of a challenge. You did talk about very briefly, you know, there's butterfly reintroductions that are being done. I did an episode on model dusky wings which very successful reintroduction. Do you think with more research on what the bog bean buck moth needs, like, could it be a candidate for reintroductions to other places where there is bog bean still around, or is it really like, let's focus on keeping these two populations healthy?

Peter Soroye (he/him) 36:52

Yeah, that's that's a great question as well. I think, yeah, I think it could be. I don't know. You know, I'm not a bug being buck moth expert by any means. There are probably a lot of people who know it a lot better than me. But it seems like a good candidate for it. It seems like there are places where it might populations of it might be able to to, to maintain to subsist and maintain. So yeah, I think that's that's possible. I think, you know, in general, though, if a species is doing, I think, focusing on where species is doing well is often the best is often a really good course. There are no threats. You know, the threats to bug being buck moth are not so high that it's. As far as I know, at risk of being lost imminently from any of the places that it is, it seems to be, you know, populations are always a little funky with, with invertebrates, but it seems like they've been hugging along for the last as long as we've been measuring and probably will continue. The places that they're in are, are provincially recognized, wet wetlands already. So and KBAs. And so there's, there's a bit of recognition already of them. They're not at risk of, of development imminently. So, you know, if we can focus on protecting those habitats, I think that's great. It's always fun to think about reintroducing species and, and try to build a little bit of a buffer in some breathing room for them. But there are also a lot of species that are threatened and, and that might benefit more from, from some of that time and attention too.

Meredith 38:11

I know I'm putting you on the spot and going off script quite a bit, but

Peter Soroye (he/him) 38:15

Good.

Meredith 38:15

at it because You did your PhD fairly recently. Congratulations on the success of that. That's a major deal. And then also how you're working on some pretty high level, stuff with wildlife conservation society, Canada. So. What's like the day to day differences? Like what were you, what did your days look like as a PhD candidate? And what do they look like now

Peter Soroye (he/him) 38:40

yeah. I mean, a lot of research in my Ph. D. I was a really, you know, kind of macroecologist that big, like a lot of data wrangling and a lot of J. S. A lot of our coding around. And you know, a lot of stats. So a lot of stats and a lot of J. S. And a lot of days where I could just kind of fully dedicate to, Bye bye. Bye. Bye. Diving into some obscure kind of tinker with statistical model or trying to map out some, some fun things or, or, you know, or both. I was able to do a fair bit of of kind of science communication and other work in my PhD as well. So that was kind of sprinkled into some of those days, but on the whole, it was a lot of, a lot of focus on research and and getting into the weeds. Now at Wildlife Conservation Society, Canada. I'm definitely out of the weeds a lot more. A lot of my work, I get to sit at this fun intersection of helping coordinate the identification of these key biodiversity areas and helping with, you know, the scientific assessments and, and delineation and some of that like a little bit of in the weeds kind of identification work. But then I'm also coordinating our outreach and engagement and collaborations for the program too. So I get to join a lot of meetings with, with First Nations or Métis communities or or other NGOs and naturalist groups and and hear about things that they're doing around these candidate KBAs or sites that we're working on. I get to work with them on on highlighting what they think is important about these places and hearing about the monitoring work that they're doing and things like that. So it's really. It's a really fun intersection. My days now are a lot more meetings a lot more report writing and emails and building kind of materials for people to help, to help kind of the collaboration the different collaborations that we're doing. So yeah, a lot different, really fun in different ways. Both of those, both of those kind of days were, were really fun in their own ways. And yeah, I guess that's a good summary.

Meredith 40:32

Yeah, I think that's great to highlight those differences, but to also showcase that, you know, you don't necessarily need to be putting on like your waiters and bug spray every single day to be making a difference for, for species. Cause that's not everybody's strength. That's not everybody's comfort zone. So, you know, you can have a lot of impact by communicating by if you're really good at math. I feel like we need more people who are really good at stats and math and biology and ecology. So, like, come this way. It's fun. So I think that's really important to highlight, but you also said that you do love recreating. You know, and being outdoors and photography and hiking and stuff. So do you have a favorite memory of maybe being outdoors or in the field that like keeps you motivated when, because let's be honest, being at a desk every single day. It's not always fun either. It's nice to have some balance. So is there a favorite field memory or something like that? That like helps keep you going.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 41:29

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely a lot of field memories that help keep days in the, in the office going. Yeah, I think one of the One of the things that, that I go back to a lot is the first, my first field season, my first time in the field when I was an undergrad I got to go out and we were monitoring butterfly populations and kind of species richness at a couple of sites around Ottawa. And this was before I really cared about pollinators at all in any way. And so I was just, I was just out because I thought it was fun. Oh yeah, this is a cool, cool to understand these, like, you know, across a gradient of agricultural intensity and and distance from urban areas and, and forest cover and things like that. Sampling butterflies. Why not? That'll be fun. And so we would run around and if people aren't familiar with catching butterflies, it's really as ridiculous as it sounds, you run around at the little net and, and you catch. You know, swing around and catch these butterflies. It's really like Spongebob trying to catch jellyfish. The same type of vibes. And it was the one of the best summers of my life is super fun. And it also like there was this moment in the field where my. like perception of of nature and kind of my perception of these like places just like switched in a really cool way. And all of a sudden I got really good at seeing butterflies and just like spotting butterflies. Which is, you know, kind of what we needed to do for that job. Cause we were, we were trying to spot as many and catch as many as we could to recognize the species. And and all of a sudden. Like this switch happened in the field one day and I was like, okay, I'm getting it now. I can finally like, you know, I've got a new edge. And then I got back downtown and went for a walk around my house and that switch stayed on. And I was seeing all of a sudden butterflies like, you know, flying across the road and like, Puttering around little bushes on campus and things like that. And it was just like, and that switch has like stayed on kind of for the rest of my life. And it's, it's really cool. It like is this whole new lens of how I see the world now and just like so much more biodiversity around. And that's, yeah, maybe not a particular memory, but it's like a really, a really cool kind of core experience. I think that that kind of happened in the field. And, and one thing I really appreciate about that field work,

Meredith 43:38

I, I can really relate to that. I had a similar thing with birds. and

Peter Soroye (he/him) 43:43

I think

Meredith 43:44

I was walking in Ottawa and right above the trail, there was a barred owl

Peter Soroye (he/him) 43:50

allow.

Meredith 43:51

it was like, it was along the Kitchissippi trail, like really, really busy trail and I was like, how many people are missing this? Right. They think they're just going about their business. And I was like, but it's so cool. And it, you know, birds and probably butterflies there. I think that are always all around us. And I think it's easy to miss them or, or to tune them out. But once you're tuned into it, it can be. Truly eye opening. So I'm really glad that, that you had that experience maybe just to wrap this up. Is there anything, know, either a story of hope or success or like either with the, bog bean buck moth or with KBAs that, you know, can leave us with a little bit of, little bit of hope for, for the direction of, of where things are going.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 44:43

Yeah. I think so. I think it's there's definitely I'm very hopeful. I think, you know, it's easy and conservation to get focused on the negatives. Definitely. We're in a huge crisis with the biodiversity crisis and the climate crisis. And, you know, especially right now, a lot of political. instability and uncertainty with, you know, how much governments at different levels are going to be caring about conservation over the next couple of years. But I think there's still, I still have a huge amount of hope for conservation. There's so many groups, there's so many people and communities that really care about. About seeing nature protected, about keeping nature around and keeping biodiversity, even the weird elements like bog bean buck moth you know, I think it's, it's really exciting. I think with the KBAs, it's really fun as well, because I get to look and see. out of bird's eye view from from pretty far away, but get to kind of see a little bit all of these really exciting places that are super important in in maybe small ways and maybe large ways but really important in some way quantifiably for biodiversity and for the protection in the long term of species and ecosystems. And I get to also see just all the incredible work that's going on around it that are going on around these sites and the people that are caring about these sites, whether they're, you know, private landowners and ranchers, or whether they're Parks Canada or Ontario Parks. And so, it's really, that gives me a lot of hope. There's a lot of You know, a lot of struggle, a lot of challenge, a lot of crisis, but also a lot of really smart people and really passionate people who really care about conservation and really care about little species like bog bean buck moth. So that gives me a lot of hope for moving forward, and I hope everyone can kind of take away, if they're caring about these species, if they're caring about keeping rare and threatened species around, then, you know, they're part of that solution too. And I think that's, that's a little hope.

Meredith 46:29

And that is the perfect note to end this on. So thank you so much for your time, Peter. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Peter Soroye (he/him) 46:35

Likewise, and let's let's try in the fall to go find to find these little moths together at some point.

Meredith 46:39

And that's a wrap on this episode with the Bog Bean, buck Moth and Peter Chore. A massive thank you to Peter for taking the time to chat with us. And if you loved this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review. It helps rarefied reach more people who care about our planet's rarest creatures. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram at rarefied dot pod and sign up for our newsletter on our website for updates and behind the scenes content, you're actually gonna have to wait a couple of weeks for the next episode. I'm taking a bit of a March break, but when we come back, we've got another great lineup of guests for you. We're gonna be going from the oceans to the forest, and let's be honest, we can't get away from wetlands. So until we're back, get out there and explore the wild, because every species has a story and every one of us can make a difference. I'm your host Meredith Meer. Thank you for listening. Happy Trails.