Vancouver Island Marmot: Space Travel, Plague, and Nose Boops

In this episode of Rarefied with host Meredith Meeker, we explore the inspiring recovery story of the critically imperiled Vancouver Island Marmot. Joining Meredith is Adam Taylor, Executive Director of the Marmot Recovery Foundation, who shares his extensive experience in wildlife conservation. Discussions include the unique biology and habitat of the Vancouver Island Marmot, the efforts and challenges of captive breeding programs, the role of human intervention, and the global significance of preserving biodiversity. This episode sheds light on the perseverance required to save endangered species and emphasizes the importance of conservation efforts.

www.marmots.org

https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acv.12448

00:00 Introduction to Rarefied Podcast

00:33 The Vancouver Island Marmot: A Conservation Success Story

01:12 Meet Adam Taylor: Executive Director of the Marmot Recovery Foundation

01:51 Understanding the Vancouver Island Marmot

06:28 The Unique Habitat of the Vancouver Island Marmot

09:24 The Social Structure and Colonies of the Vancouver Island Marmot

12:52 Threats to the Vancouver Island Marmot

19:59 The Role of Captive Breeding in Marmot Conservation

27:12 Challenges in Marmot Reintroduction

27:52 Innovative Strategies for Success

29:59 The Importance of Biodiversity

31:26 Conservation Success Stories

34:40 How You Can Help

37:55 Fieldwork and Personal Experiences

42:07 Rapid Fire Questions and Fun Facts

52:13 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Theme Song 0:00

In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy. Let's listen close, let's take a stand, to keep the wild across the land. In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy.

Meredith 0:23

Welcome you found us. Let the adventure begin. This is rarefied, the podcast where we learn to love some of our rarest and most imperiled species. I'm your host Meredith Meer, and this week's episode we are leaning into hope. Our featured species has become a case study in successful conservation. At one point there were only 22 individuals left in the wild. But thanks to major recovery efforts, their numbers are slowly bouncing back. Today, if you're lucky, you might even spot a Vancouver Island Marmite, while hiking in Strath Kona Provincial Park, a site that would've been impossible just a few decades ago. This species is still globally, nationally, and provincially considered critically imperiled, but now at least it has a fighting chance. Much of that is thanks to the Marmite Recovery Foundation, and this week we're joined by their executive director, Adam Taylor. Adam brings years of experience from British Columbia's land Trust community, where he worked on recovery programs for endangered bats, snakes, slugs, and turtles. The Marmite and the team are lucky to have them on their side. So let's dive in and discover what makes the Vancouver Island Marmite so special and why it's worth protecting far beyond its undeniably adorable face. We are talking about the Vancouver Island Bart very specific name. Is that actually it's range. I did an episode on Oregon Spotted Frog, but they exist beyond Oregon. What about the Vancouver Island Marmite,

Adam Taylor 2:05

no, the Vancouver Island Marm at the end, its entire range is Vancouver Island. So it's a, an island endemic. And it just lives in that central spine of mountains that runs down the middle of our island.

Meredith 2:17

and what else should we know about the Vancouver Island Marmite? Like, what is it? Why is it so specialized?

Adam Taylor 2:25

Wow. I could ramble on all day about the Vancouver Island Marmite, but in terms of what it is, so let's start there. It's a rodent species. About half of all mammal species are rodent species. So within that group, it belongs to the squirrel family and to a tribe called the Marini Tribe, which includes sort of these other ground squirrels, prairie dogs, species like that. There's about 15 species of Marmite specifically that are spread globally or in the Northern hemisphere. And the Vancouver Island, Marmite is one of those. So it's not the only range restricted endemic species. There's a couple of other Marmite species, including the Olympic Marmite, which lives on the Olympic Peninsula really close to us, which is also this sort of range restricted endemic species. I suspect part of that is because Marmite really specialize in living in pretty extreme environments. All Marmite species hibernate, all of'em live in environments where the winters are, are relatively harsh and long. And so hibernation provides an opportunity for them to essentially wait out a period when there's not any forage available. They're all herbivores, I should mention that. So they're eating grasses and wild flowers. So, yeah, going into hibernation allows them to get away from this period when the ground might be frozen. Or in the case of Vancouver Island, Marmite, there's a lot of snow on the ground. So right now we're, we're waiting for the snow to melt, but at the moment there's just over four meters of snow in much of the Marmite habitat. And the Marmite themselves are still underground and they're probably another two to four meters underground during hibernation.

Meredith 4:11

Okay, so we've got really specialized squirrel relatives. Their name kind of sounds like something you would order at a bar Marini, like I think maybe somebody out there needs to put that on their drink menu. But they're also, I mean, as you're describing them, this is a podcast people can't see, but this is a really cute animal. Is that, helped them hurt them?

Adam Taylor 4:40

well, it, I mean, it has helped'em it, it is a, a really disgustingly cute species. And, and I say this because background, prior to joining the Marmite project, I was working on other species at risk projects, including endangered snakes, endangered slugs, bats owl species. I don't believe that how cute a species is is the reason for that species to be safe. Having said that, I do believe it's important to save the Vancouver Island permit, and they are disgustingly cute and. That made it possible really to save the species, you know, the, they are this incredible mascot for their ecosystem, for themselves. And it allows people to, to buy into the idea that this is an animal worth saving. And, you know, 75% of the money that has gone into this conservation program comes from the general public. And I think that, really, yeah, their acuteness plays a role in that. It engages people. And I, I hope that maybe the Marmite are a gateway truck. You know, people they, they find the Marmite, they fall in love with the Marmite. They realize that they can make a real difference. And you know, obviously they keep helping the Marmite, but they fall in love with other species too.

Meredith 6:03

I'm sure it's a great mascot for their habitat for the island conservation. What's good for the Marmite isn't just good for the Marmite. I'm sure they're helping out other species. But before we get into more that side, you were talking about how there's four meters of snow. We're waiting for it to melt, but I think most people think of Vancouver Island and the West Coast as having milder winters. So where are they living? What is their habitat like?

Adam Taylor 6:32

Yeah. So I think you're, you're absolutely right. You know, most people think of Vancouver Island as being this wind swept low elevation. Victoria is all, you know, sun barely ever gets any snow. Totino just, you know, it's just wind and rain and fog. And people forget that there's this spine of mountains down the center of Vancouver Island, which are really incredibly rugged. I think people are shocked. They come here from places like the Rockies and they're like, oh, I've, I've done lots of hiking in the Rockies. And they come to this mountain, these mountain ranges, and they're difficult. They're, they're tall. They are maybe not as cold as some of the areas like the Rockies, but they're wet. So the Marmite themselves are living fairly close to the peak of many of our mountains. So we're talking almost all above a thousand meters in elevation. But most of them above about 1500 meters in elevation. And, and they're living in these areas that are actually sub alpine, so, so below the tree line, but where snow has really, or rockfall, has really basically scraped all of the trees off of the mountainside. So they're living in avalanche, chutes, and bulls. This is like. Some of the harshest conditions you can really imagine. so yeah, they're really reliant on it. This four meters of snow, that's what makes their habitat as it, as it moves across the landscape. And sometimes that's in the form of avalanches. Sometimes that's in the form of tree creep. So just this sort of slow movement of snow. But there's so much of it and it weighs so much that it's just scraping small trees off. And so what you're left with are these grasses and wild flowers that are able to grow annually in these meadows. And and they create these incredible lush open meadows, and that's where the Marmite live. So they live in these meadows. They, they cannot live in the forest. They're, they're really reliant on being able to detect their predators visually. And, you know, we'll talk maybe more about this when we talk about some of the threats they're facing. But what we see is when. The marts occupy areas where there's trees or trees occupy areas where there's Marmite. The Marmite don't live very low, so they're, they're really reliant on these sort of open spots and they're not that big. You know, each Marmite meadow might be, you know, a couple acres, may, maybe four to six acres, but they're not large spaces. So you actually end up with this network of Marmite colonies that are interacting with each other. Marmite are moving between those, especially young Marmite. They're moving between those meadows creating what we call a metapopulation dynamic, like kind of this, this network of colonies that interact with each other and kind of function as a, as a larger entity.

Meredith 9:20

Okay. You've brought up two things that I want to get into. We'll start with the colonies because I was actually gonna ask like, so are these. You know, are they more like prairie dogs and they live in like big groups or is this one or two Marmite territory per meadow? What's the kind of family dynamics and then you've hinted at already how specialized they are. So then we will, we'll jump into the threats.

Adam Taylor 9:46

So they do live in colonies and there tend to be a number of Marmite families within a colony. Vancouver Island. Marmite are maybe a little bit more social than some other Marmite species. Most Marmite live in. In colonial groups. But some of them have real hierarchies and family dynamics. Vancouver Island, Marmite, the adults they do have pretty defined territories within their colony. They'll be pretty aggressive with other adult Marmite. One of the interesting things about Vancouver Island Marmite is how tolerant they are of young Marmite, even young Marmite that aren't related to them. And it's one of the things that's made recovery possible. So we are releasing Marmite when they're a year old, and a big part of that is that adult Marmite are incredibly tolerant to these young Marmite moving into their space. At times you almost see them adopt them. You'll see them, the young worm that we release interacting with the yearlings and pups that are already in the meadow and and that that tolerance has a really important role in the way that that meta population dynamic works. So again. You get the situation where you have a relatively small colony, let's say 30, 40 marts that would be a big colony today. But, but in the past we probably had colonies about that size. And if it were totally isolated, 30 or 40 individuals, is it, it's always gonna run into problems, right? Like a pretor comes in and kills a couple of the, you know, really critical adults in the colony. you know, there's something you know, really bad avalanche that actually does manage to take out a, a burrow. We've never actually seen that, but it's theoretically possible. And if none of that happens, and we have seen this, if that colony is isolated long enough, well 30 or 40 individuals are gonna start to embrace. And you'll see really serious inbreeding issues. In fact, when we started releasing Marmite to the Wild, there was a colony on the ski slope at Mount Washington, and that colony had some fairly significant inbreeding issues. There were 10 Marmite left there, and it was really clear there hadn't been any dispersers, new Marmite arriving at that colony. So that's all the downsides of having this really small colony. But the, the way that they functioned in the past is that when Marmon turn. probably about two years old. They often leave their natal colony, the colony they were born in, and they travel across this landscape to find another Marmite colony. because those colonies tolerate young Marmite showing up in the meadow, they get brought into the colony and they contribute fresh genetics and they provide what's called a rescue effect. So if there is an issue where Marmite have died in that colony, the population is low, or just that fresh infusion of genetics, it helps keep those colonies strong. So it really is a network, right? It it, they really rely not just on having a healthy colony, but having a healthy network of colonies that are interacting with each other.

Meredith 12:43

So these guys have very specialized habitats, but they're linked together. So you've got flow of genetics and populations. Is this why they're at risk? Like because populations got separated, they're already geographically limited. What's threatening these mems.

Adam Taylor 13:01

Yeah. You are spot on. So the reason for their decline was a breakdown in the way that those colonies interacted with each other. So, Marmon habitat itself, as we've noted, it's really quite extreme. And the good news for Marmon is that there's not a lot of interest from humans. There's, there's nothing to log. The whole point of Marmon Meadows is that they're tree free. You know, you can't build a house or anything there. If you build a ski hill, that would be the one thing. But to be honest, the best evidence we have is that ski hills are actually good for armit. And, and we can, you know, they basically create artificial avalanche shoots, right? That's a downhill ski slope.'cause it's an artificial avalanche shoot. So Armit, love it. So the habitat is there, it's in relatively good shape. And what happened to the, the Marmite population appears to be a breakdown in Marmite being able to move from one colony to another. And there's whole bunch of things that happened. One of the big ones is right in the core of their colonies. There was, Strathcona Dam was put in, it created this really large lake called Battle Lake. Marmite can certainly seem to cross small bodies of water, like really small bodies of water, but they're not swimmers. They're not gonna cross this really large lake. And it just severed a whole bunch of those dispersal roots. All of these environments had been, been moving across this mountain range. Suddenly they were all isolated from each other. you know, we've talked already about how isolated colonies are going to are gonna start to wink out over time. The other thing that happened was a high elevation logging and. the strange thing here is a lot of people associate the problem with logging is removing trees. But in our case, the issue was that the trees in those areas came back. So happened is that Marmite were leaving their colonies, but instead of going and finding another Marmite colony, it's like, you know, somebody made a new subdivision right next door to you, right? They'll just, you'll just move there. You're still close to mom and dad, you know, the area. So they set up shop in these high elevation cut blocks, and the population of those cut blocks seem to do all right, on average for about seven to 10 years. But then as the young trees grow up, the Marmite get wiped out by predators, you know a herd of elk or deer will move in to browse on, on the, you know, the vegetation and the cougars will follow them, or the wolves will follow them. And with the Marmite not having any clear sight lines because of all the young trees, they just get completely wiped out by predators. while that's happening, while those Marmite are moving down into these these cleared areas, they're not going to other Marmite colonies. So it effectively isolates those Marmite colonies, and that's a, a population sink. So these cut blocks are effectively population sinks for the Marmite.

Meredith 15:51

We just talked about how they're isolated. It's extreme habitat. People aren't building houses there. I'm assuming there is, other than these cut blocks and logging. Kind of a lack of people. So how did we figure out we were even losing the species?

Adam Taylor 16:06

That, that's actually a really unfortunate component of this is that it, it took a long, long time. For us to really recognize that there was an issue with the Marmite population so on. It was essentially naturalists in high care groups. And the couch and valley naturalists in particular very early on started to identify that they weren't seen Marmite in the meadows where they expected to see them. And I can speak from experience that on its own. Unfortunately that doesn't mean much. You know, I've hiked into a Marma meadow and you get there and we have telemetry now and Marmite that we've released with transmitters. So we can a Yagi antenna and find individuals. We know they're there, but if there's been a, a predator that's moved through or they're, you know, the weather's bad and they, they just don't want to be out, they'll just stay underground and you'll never see them. So when hiker groups started saying, and the naturalists started saying, we're not seeing marm, I think the initial reaction was, well. What does that mean? Doesn't really mean much. Surveys at the Marmon found, you know, a reasonable number of Marmon, but a lot of them were actually occupying cut blocks. And, and I don't think at the time people understood the fate of the Marmon in those cut blocks. So fortunately, those naturalist groups really kept pushing and pushing and pushing. And in the 1980s, it just began to do some more comprehensive surveys of Marmite. that time, Marmite had probably already been extricated from Strat coa Provincial Park, so a big part of their range. And the population had collapsed, essentially to the extreme southern end of their historic range in an area called the Nanaimo Lakes. So the initial surveys were showing, you know, just over 300 marts, but the, the trend line was really clear. And through the late nineties, we got to a point where there were fewer than a hundred Marmite left in the wild. at that point, there was a decision made that we probably needed to start a captive breeding program. that a feeling at that time is that the wild population would likely go extinct. That was the trend. Marmite survival rates were incredibly low and that the, the Marmite in captivity would be the only ones that would, would remain. So over the next, was it, it six, seven years of 55 Marmon were brought into captivity from the wild, and the Marmon that were selected to bring into captivity were all individuals that had essentially a 0% chance of survival. So individuals that were in a cut block individuals that were alone and stranded pops whose parents had already been predated on. So we brought those individuals into captivity and, and tried to establish a, a captive breeding program. The Calgary Zoo and the Toronto Zoo each took Marmite and we built a, a purpose built facility at Mount Washington to breed marm Mets. In 2003 we were ready to release the very first marm Mets back to the wild. At that point, we could only find 22 Vancouver Island Marts left in the wild, and we released four marm mets that year, and three of them were eaten by a cougar, the fourth one was brought back into captivity so that it wouldn't get eaten by a cougar. I mentioned that because one of the things we find with. breeding and reintroduction programs is, it's pretty hard at first, you know, and, and we see this today with other programs like spotted owls. we were able to persevere. Fortunately, we did have the, the resources to continue releasing Marmite and to really refine the way we were releasing Marmite and, and found ways to be successful. And, and that population started to come back up as a result of the captive breeding program.

Meredith 19:59

I had love to get into more about the breeding program specifically, like their rodents. Rodents have a reputation for being good breeders. Like did that help you guys out and give you more opportunities after that first year or, or what does that program really look like?

Adam Taylor 20:17

So I will mention, you know, when we talk about, there's about what, 5,000 some mammal species and about half of those are rodents. So it's a really, really, really big group. And I know when we talk about rodents, people are thinking of these small, you know, rats and mice and, you know, they're prolific breeders marmite them. They are at the extreme other end of that spectrum. So everything about a Marmite is adapted to survive in these incredibly extreme environments. Their bodies are really, really adopted to, to living in a very difficult spot. So to escape those long winters, they're hibernating for seven months of the year. During that period of time, they're losing between 30 and 50% of their body mass. So they're emerging from hibernation. And they're Herbi befores, right? So they're not eating high calorie food. So they have five months to put on enough weight to survive the next hibernation again. if you're a female Marmite you get pregnant and they breed a me, in fact they're often breeding before they actually dig out through the soil, right? So they're actually breeding while they're still underground in the, in the hi vernacular. If a female gets pregnant, she's not gonna put on any body weight until after she gives birth. So that's one month they get pregnant. Probably. May we always joke that Wild Marts, all their birthdays are June 1st.'cause they give birth underground. We don't actually see them, but it's sometime around that time. And then for the next month, she's gonna keep her pops underground and she's gonna be feeding them milk'cause they're mammals. And that again, she's not gonna put on any body weight during that period of time. All of that energy, all of the energy that she's consuming is going into feeding her bumps. So now her period of time to put on enough body weight to survive the next hibernation has been reduced from five months to three months. And the reality is that very few individuals are able to get enough body condition to both survive the next hibernation and then breed again the following year. Vancouver Island Marmite will produce typically between two and six pups only once every other year, once they reach adulthood. So it'll take them three years before most females are, have the body condition to breed. And then, yeah, maybe a litter at three or four, maybe another at five or six, we're lucky. Maybe another litter at seven or eight. And then after that. You know, they're unlikely. Their, their reproductive success goes down as they, as they get older. So they're not prolific breeders. They're really slow breeders. And even in captivity, you know, we can only do so much to encourage breeding. And we've had some interesting, interesting learning, learning opportunities in captivity, shall we say. So I think one of the big things was when we first brought mites into captivity, our feeling was that we had these animals that, you know, literally they were gonna go extinct. And you had, you know, the keepers were responsible for keeping these animals alive. We didn't know how to care for them, right? So, you know, we, we understood some of the food, some of their, some of their dietary needs. But as long as the environments were eating, we just kept putting food out for them. And as long as there was food out for them, the Marmite kept putting off going into hibernation. But it turns out that Marmite breed after coming out of hibernation, that hibernation period's really important and deeply compromised hibernation, don't lead to very good breeding. so we started to, to really need to take the really brave step of, of that sort of harsh love, right? We actually had to pull food from them in October and November to get them to go into hibernation properly. And then that really improved breeding. But even so, in the captive breeding program, their body condition is better in the captive breeding program'cause they've got free access to food, you know, during the active season. But even so, most Marmite will maybe breed maybe two out of every three years. Maybe the many, most will still skip years Reproductively.

Meredith 24:34

That I can only imagine how stressful that would be'cause you're in conservation because you love animals. And then making that decision to pull food from potentially, you know, this is the, oh, I don't envy that decision, but I'm, I'm glad it worked out. And so, captive breeding has played a huge role in the recovery of these species. But what has been done,'cause obviously you need places to release them where they can be successful. So what's that piece kind of looked like?

Adam Taylor 25:05

Yeah. So initially we started releasing them back into areas, so reintroducing them to areas in the Nanaimo Lakes. That's where the very last Marmite colonies persisted. Aside from this one colony at Mount Washington, which is further north, and that's part of what we call the Strat Metapopulation. We did release some Maritz to the Strat Conia meta population to try and address those inbreeding issues. But our focus was really on trying to rebuild an Animo Lakes population. feeling was. I think accurately that that's where Marmite had persisted. And it's where these habitat features that Marmite create had also persisted. So there were still burrows, there were still hyper macular. that's a lot of energy for Marmon to create those. And there were still wild Marmite to support. So there was a combination of supporting the, like four colonies of Marmite that actually did persist on the landscape and trying to start to reintroduce Marmite to sites where they had been historically. Many of the reintroductions, unfortunately, you know, were not successful. We've got a list of sites where the mites failed. We have another list of sites where the Mites picked up shop and moved to a another site where we were releasing Marmite, so they joined forces, which that that's all right. So after a while we just, we, you know, we started following the Marm however, we also wanted to reintroduce Marmon to stress. C and Provincial Park. That area is at probably the historic core of their habitat. And Ha. Climate modeling has really suggested that that's the area that's going to be most resilient to climate change into the future. Unfortunately, Marmite had been extricated from Strath Dakota and Provincial Park for an unknown period of time, sometime prior to the 1980s. We don't know when the colonies disappeared. And there, there was no, there were no habitat features left. There was no burrows, no hyper macula. These structures that Marmite create and we'll use generation after generation we're on. What we found when we started releasing captive Bread Marmite to Strath Kona was that they weren't successful. You know, when we released'em to the Nanaimo Lakes. You know, there's, there were, they were reasonably successful, right? And they were rebuilding colonies. And what we found in Strath Dakota Provincial Park was that they just died. So it was gonna take us something in the neighborhood of 27 Marmite released from captivity to get one adult Marmite in Strathcona Park. that, I mean, that was not sustainable for us, just in terms of the captive breeding program. And it, we don't have that many Marmite. Was certainly not an ideal situation for the Mammouth themselves. So this was, this was before my time. My predecessor really started to look for how could we. How could we increase their success? And one of the big thoughts was Strathcona is it's harder, right? There's just, there's no marm mets left. But maybe if the Marm Mets had wild experience prior to getting moved into these remote spots, we they would be more successful. So what he did was he would start releasing Marmite to to Mount Washington to the ski slope. there the Marmite did relatively well and captive released Marmite had over a 90% survival rate at Mount, still do at Mount Washington. And and then the following year he's already going back with the crew, trapping some of the Marmite that had been released and translocating them. So these Marmite had now lived in the wild in Mount Washington. They hibernated in a borough. They had that wild experience, and then they were caught and they were moved into into the wild in, in the remote areas in Strath Dakota. In those Marmite, know, their success rate went from about one in 27 to a, to about one in five, one in six, which is actually really similar to what we see in Wild Marmite, right? So has been a huge success. And today, you know, this past year, for the first time ever, we've really seen the, the Strathcona population is now actually larger than the Nan Oles population. And we're really seeing those Marats are, you know, those colonies that have gotten established are now sending out dispersers and they're establishing new colonies on their own, which is incredibly exciting.

Meredith 29:24

It sounds like a really big success story for a captive breeding program. You had a extirpated completely gone population, which is now larger and potentially doing better and will have greater success in the future than the source population. So congratulations. That's a, a huge deal. And I guess why should people care that Vancouver Island Marmite have rebounded that? You know, they're, they could be here into the future other than they're so stinking cute.

Adam Taylor 29:59

Well, they argue they are, but I, I mean, I, I guess I always wanna start with, you know, my, I suppose belief, I think there's a value to biodiversity. I think that that's what makes this planet unique. It's, you know, this is the only spot in the universe that we know of where life exists. It is what defines us. And, and I believe that, you know, when we have the power to save a species, all, almost all species on the planet that are in trouble, they are in trouble as a result of our. Our activity, human activity whether it's directly or indirectly, and where we really have a power to save those species, I think it's our responsibility to do that. However you know, I also recognize that there are a couple other, I think, really important reasons to save the mermaid. One from a, just, just from a, an incredibly selfish perspective, we know that biodiversity is important to human health too, right? We know that biodiversity biodiverse areas, people tend to have better physical health, better mental health. So conserving that biodiversity, that, that network of life is, it's gonna be important for us too. And where biodiversity fails, we see, you know, things like crop failures. We see zoonoses. So diseases spreading from wild animals to, to humans. There is a host of issues that arise that make our existence more precarious when we lose biodiversity. The other reason I think it's important for us to, to be successful with the moments is'cause we need good news stories. I, I mean, it is, I suppose dark or grim for a moment. You know, biodiversity on this planet, life on this planet is not doing well. We are at the start of a six extinction. It's a mass extinction, that we absolutely have the decision, the power and the ability to either allow it to progress or, or to stop it. But part of that, unfortunately is that we are going to see a lot more species that are brought to the real brink of extinction. You know, the Vancouver Island environment was close with 22, but there's other species in Canada. There's, you know, species like the black-footed fair, which has been extricated, I suppose, from Canada completely Now, you know, the greater prairie chicken you know, there's just so, so many species, unfortunately, caribou, herds that are dwindling towards these numbers. And it's really easy for us to essentially say, well, it's sous and we should just stop. It's too expensive. We can't do it. and there's no point in investing in saving at risk, the ones that are in the most dire of straits. And I think it's important to have success stories like the Vancouver Island maron to prove that we can't, you know, we don't have to give up on like, you know, southern interior caribou, you know, those, those species or populations, they can be saved. We can do it. And I know, I know that the Vancouver Island environment is brought up in some of those conversations, right? As, as evidence that. There is value and purpose to these programs. So that was a long, a long answer to your question, but those, those three reasons, because I think we have a moral obligation because it is important to our wellbeing and because we need to shine a light in dark places to provide hope for other species at risk.

Meredith 33:30

I think that the Vancouver Island, Marmite being able to provide, even if it's not a direct blueprint, you know, it really does showcase we can be successful when we do have the resources, when we do put in the effort and we take action before they're extinct. Because, you know, that's, that's a big thing too. We need to, to catch it at the right time.

Adam Taylor 33:55

I, I always sort of use an analogy of, you know, open heart surgery or bypass surgery. You know, in terms of the type of conservation effort that we're doing at the Vancouver Island environment, intensive, it's expensive, extremely interventionist. Think that these are important, you know, we save lives with open heart surgery. We can save species with things like captive breeding programs and reintroduction programs. But man, it's always better to avoid it. Right? Like, let's, let's keep common species common. I. And intervene in species at risk like the Marmon, if we had intervened earlier, this would be a much simpler program. I'd probably be off working on some other species, so,

Meredith 34:40

And maybe that's a great segue,, but people who are looking to support species at risk conservation, what can people who are listening do to help?

Adam Taylor 34:49

well certainly, you know, when it comes to the Vancouver Island environment, again, you know, people across Canada have saved this species from extinction, and the people who donate to our foundation have literally saved this species from extinction. And I really, I really think, I hope, feels to me like that's a really powerful message of that, that you know, you can, you can donate some money and that really can. Make a difference. Having said that, you know, I also acknowledge we're not the only species at risk in Canada. There are so many. And so the question is finding the one that you know, appeals to you that is near to your heart. And I encourage people, of course, to care about the Vancouver Island Marmon, but I also encourage people to care about things like the blue, gray tail dropper, slug, you know, sharp tailed snake or whatever, whatever species it is that is near, near to you. And know that, know, whether there's an organization that's already doing something, supporting that organization, it will make a difference for that species at risk. And if there's not, man, can do stuff. One of the species that I was kind of brushed against very, very early on in my career was purple me. And in British Columbia, there were just a handful of purple Merton pairs left. And it was really a volunteer effort that happened to be led by my, my first boss that started putting up nest boxes and has essentially recovered that species in our province, you know, and, and it really was, you know, it was building bird boxes, going out, putting them out maintaining them. So, so yeah, there's, there's opportunities for you to play a direct role or if you don't have the opportunity to play a direct role, know that supporting organizations like MRF and other conservation organizations, it works. Conservation works. We can, we can save species.

Meredith 36:47

I, no, I mean it wasn't a Canadian species, but like a core memory for me. And I truly think one of the reasons why I work in conservation is I think for Christmas one year my nana bought me and my sister a sponsorship. We adopted a golden lion tamarind and it was critically endangered. And I can tell you that when it got down listed, I felt like I had saved the world, like, and it's a really powerful thing that you can contribute and a great way to inspire future conservationists too. I.

Adam Taylor 37:21

Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And yeah, we, you can adopt a Marmite as well. And you know, there's other adopt programs out there and it is a good way of building that connection between people and, and the outcome of their support because again. lots of evidence that conservation works there. I can't remember the name of the papers, but there were a couple of papers published just in the last couple years that really demonstrated it. You know, conservation programs really do have an immediate and measurable impact on species at risk.

Meredith 37:55

And you've been working with the Vancouver Island Marmite for quite a while now. Do you have a favorite memory from working with them or from being out in the field?

Adam Taylor 38:07

Yeah, it's that, it's a strangely hard question for me. I I know one of the things about the Vancouver Island permit that's maybe a little different than some of the other species I worked on is the difficulty of getting into their habitat. So wife actually works in bluebird conservation and so I, I volunteer with that from time to time. And, you know, you stroll across a ice field and, and get to your bluebird and, you know, it's all easy. But with the Marts, they, they live at the top of mountains and helicopters are expensive. So we don't, we don't get to take helicopters. The Marmite get helicopters, but we have to walk. So your spans sometimes a couple hours, sometimes more hiking up into this alpine sub alpine habitat. And it is tiring. You've got a pack on your back that might weigh 38 pounds or more'cause it is full of telemetry gear and all of your food and everything else that you need. And, you know, you get to this point where you pop out of the trees into this meadow and it it's always kind of pick me up, know, when you that first marette and that, I mean, that is really kind of it, you know, it's just that, that experience of you, you get out and I guess my first time, every time, every time the first time I step out of the trees and I survey the metal, of course you don't see anything like in or rarely see anything instantly. It always takes a little bit of exploration to find the Marmite, but you kind of have this, I don't know, sort of hopeless feeling almost in a way. Maybe that's a bit extreme, but this, yeah, you've done all of this work and where are the Marmite? And then you see them and it's just, and they are that they do reward you. They are disgustingly cute. It really is, really is quite something.

Meredith 39:59

There is some sort of, I, I don't know, almost like Disney princess appeal to them that they live in these mountain flower meadows and you know, and they're so cute.

Adam Taylor 40:13

But, it's so much worse than that. It's so much worse. So my favorite mermaid behavior,'cause how could you not? You see these pictures of these mermaids touching noses and you know, like a lot of wildlife. I think my first impression when I saw those photos was like, oh yeah, but whatever, you know, but no, that's what hermits do. So family members, we call it pair bonding activity, but family members will come and they will boop noses and it is just as cute as it sounds, maybe cuter to see this, this young Marmite and it's wrestling with, you know, its sibling and then it runs up to mom and, and it, and it leans in and boops her nose and, and, and then they really are. Disgustingly cute, but. It does not matter. That's not why we're saving the Marmite. It's not because it's cute, it just happens to be cute.

Meredith 41:07

No, but it is perhaps part of the miracle of biodiversity that we can get these wide range of things and you get things that are on the cute spectrum. And you, I mean, my not last episode, episode before was American eels. Maybe not so much on the cute spectrum, depending on who you ask, but still worthy of protection

Adam Taylor 41:29

There's another island endemic that actually lives close, although it doesn't interact with the Vancouver Island environment, which is the couch in Lake Clare. So an endemic species confined to a couple of lakes in the couch and valley, it's quite a bit harder. I will say to get people excited about a, a parasitic fish, but it's, it's really cool. I Okay. I'm, I'm sure I, I am easy. Like I, I just, I love them all. I love the snakes and the slicks and the lamb trays and the marmite, but but I know it's a bit of a stretch for some people to, to really fall in love with the, with some of the, the more challenging species.

Meredith 42:06

That's totally fair. But let's go back to the Vancouver Island, Marmot, and let's do a little bit of a, a rapid fire what do you think is the most underrated or overlooked thing about the species?

Adam Taylor 42:20

it's how tough they are. Like they, there's these little, there's these little cute fluff balls, right? And you just. You know, it, they look kind of delicate and like stuff overgrown stuffies, but they are tough. Like they, and it's crazy, right? Not only do they have this incredible hibernation cycle, but they're digging these hiac that again are like two meters to four meters deep in soil where you could not put a shovel in that soil at all. Like just not a hope. And they're using their teeth and their claws to dig that. Like it's crazy how tough they are and how adaptable they are. So, again, one of the things that's made possible for us to be successful is that we release Marmite to the wild, often within about 15 minutes to half an hour, these Marmite are out of the borough that we release them to, and they're already eating natural vegetation. Like they're just so resilient. I don't think they get enough credit for that. You know, people focus on the nose, boop, which, which I do get, and it kind of overlook just how tough these little critters really are.

Meredith 43:25

Do you think that that is the biggest myth about them, is that they're delicate? Or what do you think the biggest myth is about the Vancouver Island Marmite?

Adam Taylor 43:33

Alright. So the, the biggest myth about the Vancouver Island environment is that they shut down our local ski resort every year. So this has floated around for decades that Mount Washington the, the one of the biggest ski resort on Vancouver Island, that it shuts down its operations each year to protect Vancouver Island permit. Now we have a great relationship with Mount Washington. They have been incredibly supportive. It has been a cornerstone of our recovery effort that ski hill. But yeah, that's not why they shut down skiing. Most years they shut down skiing way before the Marmite are out of hibernation. And in the rare year when there is enough snow on the ground to support skiing, we've had skiers and Marmite on the mountain at the same time, like that, Marmite, they don't have any interest in the skiers. They're not gonna hang around. They we'll not die every single year. I get asked. Oh, so that's why they shut down Mount Washington, right? Like the, for the Marmite and they, no. Oh, I don't know why, but it's, it's, it absolutely is the biggest myth about this species. And it will not go away.

Meredith 44:34

I didn't give this one to you in advance, so maybe it's unfair, but do Marmite and outdoor recreation go hand in hand? Okay.

Adam Taylor 44:44

Yeah. For the most part, Marmite are pretty tolerant of having humans in their landscape. In fact, we often think that, that one of the reasons they're so successful at Mount Washington and the reason that there are. rate there is so high is because of all the people. So the people scare away their predators, the cougars, they do disturb the Marmite, but not enough to impact their survival. And so what you end up getting is a really successful area.'cause there's not a lot of predation in more remote areas. You know, our biggest concerns really are around pathogens that, you know, somebody might hike in with a pathogen on their boot if they've been to another mountain, somewhere else even on Vancouver Island or a farm or on the mainland. And that that's a vector to bring in a disease that could really impact our environments. But other than that, you know, clean your boots, clean your clothes before you go, out clean, come back dirty. As long as, as long as we are, we're careful about that. Yeah, and dogs, I should mention dogs. Dogs off leash aren't good for hermits. They're, that's a predation thing again. But but an individual hiking in Strath Dakota Park. You know, if you see Marmite, just keep your distance, but you're not gonna really interfere with them at all. And, and it's not a, there's not a lot of conflict there at all.

Meredith 45:59

Keep your distance. Enjoy the moment and keep your dog on leash.

Adam Taylor 46:02

Yeah, exactly.

Meredith 46:04

And we talked a little bit about how they're so secretly tough, but do they have any other hidden talents that people might not know about?

Adam Taylor 46:12

Alright, so this, this is gonna sound out there, so bear with me. This is true. They can stop aging. So this was a study, it was actually done in yellow belly Marmite. It's not Vancouver Island Marmite, but I'm positive it's true for other Marmon species as well. Marmite when they go into hibernation, adult Marmite, not young ones, but adult Marmite actually can slow or stop their epigenetic process. So, which is just incredible, right? Like, so they are not really getting older through their hibernation period. And yeah, I mean, that, that's pretty, pretty spectacular.

Meredith 46:56

That is mind blowing.

Adam Taylor 46:59

Yeah.

Meredith 47:00

Like that's, that's science fiction.

Adam Taylor 47:02

Well, I mean, when the study came out, this was from Dan Blum's lab at UCLA. He was the one who kind of led that research. She just loved it. And, yeah, I mean, I think the big question on everybody's mind was about things like space travel, which, you know, I don't think any of us meit researchers are really equipped to answer questions about space travel. That's, that's not our area of expertise, but but yeah, yeah, so they really do slow or stop their aging. It's just insane.

Meredith 47:31

This might be my favorite hidden talent that's come up on this podcast ever. That's so wild. I don't even know how to move on from that. But next question would be, What's like the funniest or most unexpected reaction you've gotten from people when you tell them what you do?

Adam Taylor 47:51

Alright. So, I mean, most people of course, are really curious. I think a lot of people, their dream is to work in conservation and particularly with a species like the Vancouver Island Marmon. And, and this next part though, this, this needs to stay between you and I and the listeners. So there is kind of a dark history with mites and a bacterium, um, y yesinia, pesti. And, that bacterium, of course causes the plague, the b the bubonic plague, the one that has killed many millions of people over the last several centuries. And it likely originated in, in Marmite got, you know, a zoonotic disease that got spread and, and, and continues to kill people. You know, you, you could, you could make the claim that Marmite actually kill more people each year in North America than cougars. About seven people a year die of the plague in North America. And, it's like less than one for cougars. So. Way more dangerous but when you talk about reactions, rarely do people bring this up. I don't think this is a well understood, nor is it something that you need to be particularly concerned about don't eat Mormons. That's my advice. Don't eat Mormons. But I did have one person who was really quite deeply concerned when I talked about working with Martins about the plague and like, what precautions are you taking, you know, to make sure that know, this, the pesti is, is not spreading to you or you're not like. And, and ironically we had actually investigated, the impact of, of Pestis, one of their initial thoughts about why the Marmite population was declining was there might have been a disease. And so that was that was investigated that it doesn't occur in Vancouver Island Marmite, but but it did catch me off guard. I don't think anybody's actually asked me about the plague environments before. So it was, it was a good question.

Meredith 49:49

That would not have been a connection. Obviously it wasn't in my list of questions, so maybe I need to do more research like this person to catch you off guard. But that is a pretty wild reaction. But good to know. Well, most of them are endangered or threatened or really endemic, so probably don't eat them anyway,

Adam Taylor 50:07

No, no. I mean, I, yeah, if you need another reason not to eat a Marmite, there it is for you..

Meredith 50:14

And if this species were to enter a competition, what category are they winning? Are they taking home fastest, smartest, strongest? Weirdest?

Adam Taylor 50:25

So, I mean, obviously Sleepiest, I mean, how we've talked about hibernation over and over and

Meredith 50:31

I.

Adam Taylor 50:31

so you can't, I mean, hibernation isn't really sleep. It's a, it's a different body state than sleep is. But, but yeah, I mean they're like, they are gotta be among the world record on hibernation, you know, they're one of the few mammal species that actually hibernates for longer than they're active for.

Meredith 50:50

And then you, you've mentioned that you've worked with other species at risk, so was there an aha moment when you wanted to dedicate your life to conservation or what made you see. Switch and, and start working with the barit.

Adam Taylor 51:05

So, I think it was almost the opposite for me. I had this career plan. I was gonna work in museums. That was my, that was gonna be my thing. I had, you know, going through university, I had gotten, you know, co-op positions in museums and whatnot. But then very early on in my career, I, I got a job as a park naturalist. So doing natural history interpretation in parks and working in that setting. And after that, I think it was really just like this, you know, gravitational pull that, know, hold me towards conservation and, and within conservation in particular, species at risk, so but yeah, yeah, it was this at times it was kicking and screaming. I swore I would never become a birder. I had, I failed that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So, so it was that, that orbit that, that pulled me in.

Meredith 51:59

There is something about just getting out in the field and having your eyes opened either through, you know, working as a naturalist or sometimes it's a field program. It's really hard to go back once you've been pulled out in the field. So I. Clearly before I lose my voice, Adam, thank you so much for chatting with me. I have really enjoyed this conversation and it went in so many unexpected directions. It was really a joy.

Adam Taylor 52:27

Well, thank you Meredith. Thanks so much for having us on.

Meredith 52:29

And that's a wrap on this week's episode featuring the Vancouver Island Marmite and Adam Taylor. A huge thank you to Adam for sharing his passion and knowledge. I'm willing to bet you're walking away from this episode with a whole new set of fun facts perfect for your next dinner party. Now let's test what you've learned. Marts are part of the rodent family, specifically the Marini. Unlike many smaller rodents, barit are slow to reproduce. True or false. Of course this is true. Living in harsh environments means marts need time to build up the body condition to reproduce. Some females may only breed every other year, maybe even every third year. Compare that to the eastern gray squirrels we have running around here in Ontario, which can have two litters annually. Also, at the very beginning of this episode, we talked about how Vancouver Island Maritz were. Endemic species, and we've had that word come up quite a bit on this podcast. So endemic means a species that is native and restricted to a specific place. So basically means you're only gonna find them on Vancouver Island. Last week I shared with you, I had just got back from our babymoon to Belize. Unfortunately, I came back with quite a bit of a cold, so I'm sorry my voice was starting to crackle by the end of the episode. I would like to promise that it will be back to normal next week, but I just can't seem to shake it. But hey, at least it's not the bubonic plague. Who knew those fuzzy faces could be harboring such a deadly disease. And this week's episode we got really close to discussing this concept of One Health. The need to look at human and environmental health is one. I'm hoping to get into more of this concept in future episodes. And if you have any suggestions for topics or guests, shoot me an email or DM me. And of course, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. It helps rare verify, reach even more people who care about protecting our planet's rare species. And as always, you can follow us on Instagram at rarefied pod, and sign up for our newsletter on our website for updates and behind the scenes content. Until next time, get out there and explore the wild, because every species has a story and every one of us can make a difference. I'm your host Meredith Meeker. Thank you for listening and happy trails.