Jefferson Salamander: Do a little dance

In this episode of Rarefied the podcast, host Meredith Meeker delves into the intriguing world of the Jefferson Salamander, a rare and imperiled amphibian found in Ontario, Canada. Meredith is joined by Jessica Linton, a senior biologist and project manager at NRSI, who shares her expertise on the species' lifecycle, habitat, and the unique reproductive strategy involving unisexual salamanders. The discussion also covers the threats facing the Jefferson Salamander, including habitat loss and climate change, and outlines efforts being made to protect this essential species, from road closures to conservation advocacy. Listeners are encouraged to take action to support endangered species protection and learn more about the fascinating lives of these elusive creatures.

https://ecojustice.ca/news/ford-government-guts-endangered-species-act-slashes-wildlife-protections-in-ontario/?utm_campaign=Nature&utm_content=330670154&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin&hss_channel=lcp-762549

00:00 Introduction to Rarefied Podcast
00:33 Meet the Jefferson Salamander
01:54 Lifecycle and Unique Traits
04:57 Habitat and Conservation Challenges
05:57 Reproductive Strategies and Genetic Complexity
14:06 Conservation Efforts and Public Engagement
14:34 Threats and Protective Measures
22:11 Public Involvement and Advocacy
24:02 Eco Justice and Conservation Efforts
24:36 Field Stories: Adventures with Salamanders
26:38 Salamander Trapping Techniques
27:28 Rapid Fire Questions: Fun Facts and Myths
30:46 Challenges and Successes in Salamander Conservation
35:25 Career Path and Outreach
38:23 Conclusion and Call to Action

Transcript

Theme Song 0:00

In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy. Let's listen close, let's take a stand, to keep the wild across the land. In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy.

Meredith 0:23

Welcome you found us. Let the adventure begin. This is rarefied the podcast where we're going to learn to love some of our rarest and most imperiled species. I'm your host Meredith Meer, and in this week's episode, we are waiting back into wetlands. I'm so happy to be featuring another one of Canada's incredible amphibians, the Jefferson Salamander, the Jefferson Salamanders range consists of northeastern United States and extends into Canada, but only in the province of Ontario. Globally, it's considered vulnerable, and in the United States it's considered apparently secure, but the population in Canada and Ontario is imperiled, so this is a very rare. Salamander up here in Ontario and today I'm joined by an expert on the Jefferson Salamander, Jessica Linton. Jessica is a senior biologist and project manager at NRSI and is responsible for the oversight of their species at risk sector, she manages a wide range of projects that encompass natural area inventory, scientific research, recovery planning, and impact assessments. Jessica is a member of the committee on the status of endangered wildlife in Canada or Wick, and is an expert on both butterflies and of course, salamanders. I'm so happy she could join us today. So let's jump into it. Amazing. And we are talking about the Jefferson salamander today. Very cool species. I think people are probably feel fairly familiar with salamanders, but maybe not the Jefferson salamander. So what is a Jefferson salamander? Why is it special?

Jessica 2:10

Yeah, so Jefferson Salamander are considered a part of a group of salamanders called the Mole Salamander. So they're in the family Ambi day and. don't often know a lot about these creatures because as their name suggests, mole salamander, they spend the majority of life, their life underground. And people are often surprised when they see photos of Jefferson salamanders or closely related species like spotted salamander to find out how big they can be. I think one of the largest ones I've caught was almost like, you know, 25 centimeters long.

Meredith 2:43

Yeah, I think a lot of people think salamanders probably have a similar lifestyle to like frogs, which I mean they are amphibians, but they definitely have some. Unique adaptations. You wanna talk a little bit about maybe like their lifecycle or

Jessica 3:01

Sure. Yeah. They are similar in some ways to frogs. You're right. But mole salamanders are amphibious in that they spend. Part of their lifecycle in the water and then part of their lifecycle on land. So every spring, Jefferson salamanders have these explosive movements to their breeding ponds. And that usually happens March, early April. As soon as you get those first warm, rainy nights, and they move on masse to their breeding ponds they will breed and then they disperse again into the. Surrounding forest habitat. And so sometimes they're only in the pond for like a day or two. Some will stay for up to a week. But then, yeah, they leave the breeding pond and the rest of their life cycle is spent on land as an adult. The ones, the eggs that are deposited into the pond will continue to develop there over the coming weeks and then hatch into larva. And larva similar or similar to tadpoles? I would say when they first hatch, they look a lot like a tadpole, but as they develop they will grow legs. And then and they, the other difference between a tadpole and a larva salamander is that larva salamanders have external gills. So they have these frilly things that come out the sides of their heads that look like like, well, they are external gills. And then towards the end of the summer, they absorb those external gills and transform into a terrestrial salamander and leave the water.

Meredith 4:32

Very, very cool. I know that I, I have attempted on, you know, like a couple of those rainy nights when like the ice is coming off the pools to like get out there and try and find salamanders. I have yet to have. Success. So maybe I need some tips on if I wanna go find salamanders,

Jessica 4:52

Yeah. I mean, the, the key thing is being in the, the right place at the right time. So knowing kind of where their habitat is, in terms of habitat for Jefferson Salamander in particular. like relatively mature and intact deciduous or mixed forests with fishless ephemeral breeding ponds. So little ponds that form in the spring when it's really rainy and the snow is melting. They're fed primarily by surface water. And they provide this kind of enclosed environment where there's no fish to eat their eggs or larva a safe place for breeding, and they're surrounded by nice forested habitat. So if you could get that combination of habitat, you're likely to find am bisto and salamanders. not Jefferson.'cause of course there are a little bit more rare, but there are other species of closely related salamanders as well.

Meredith 5:45

And Jefferson salamanders are fairly difficult to ID or like, I know they've got some like weird genetics going on.

Jessica 5:55

They do.

Meredith 5:56

What's going on there?

Jessica 5:57

they have a comp, what we call a complicated reproductive strategy, so necessarily Jefferson salamanders themselves, but all populations of Jefferson salamander in Ontario. Co-occur with what we call unisexual am Biid salamanders. So these are salamanders that are all female they look very similar to Jefferson Salamanders. And as I mentioned, they co-occur with every population that we know about of Jefferson Salamander. They also co-occur with all of Ontario's blue spotted salamander populations and small mouth populations of salamander. so what these unisexual females do is they essentially steal sperm sperm metaphors from the Jefferson salamander and the blue spotted salamander males and use it to initiate their own egg development. then you get this community of salamanders that has this kind of wonky, complex of genetics because you not only have pure, what we call genetically pure Jefferson salamander, males and females, you have these unisexual females that are dominated by polyploid, provided by the Jefferson salamander. And so by looking at them, you can't usually tell just by looking at them if they're pure Jefferson salamander or not. We have to take tissue samples in order to analyze their genetics to understand what species they are.

Meredith 7:21

How would something like that, or like is there any evolutionary advantage to these unisexual females? Like this just seems like a. A bizarre co-evolution situation.

Jessica 7:33

It is a bizarre, a approach. You're right. And not, I think there are very few species that, that have this strategy, like these uni sexuals do. given that they're all female, they, they reproduce by a system called Klepto Genesis, which is a long, complicated word, but it essentially means they steal these sperm metaphors and they don't necessarily. Use it to like impregnate themselves and incorporate that genetic material. The way that, you know, we would use a sperm to fertilize an egg. They just need the sperm metaphor to initiate their egg development, and then they essentially clone themselves. So it gives them a bit of a, an advantage because they're able to replicate their own genetic material and create copies of themselves. But in certain situations, particularly those where Jefferson Salamander are rare, be a bit detrimental to those populations because. These uni sexuals are stealing sperm metaphors that the female Jefferson salamanders would otherwise be using. And it also causes a sexual skew in the population. There's a lot more females than males,

Meredith 8:42

so male Jefferson salamanders are depositing their super metaphors in these ponds. Do the females then just come and col, like the female Jefferson? Do they also need to collect, like, so these sperm metaphors are a finite resource type thing.'cause I, you know, pawns, sometimes there's broadcast

Jessica 9:04

Yep.

Meredith 9:06

sper, sperm and eggs, and so what's that like?

Jessica 9:09

So there, there, there they're sperm metaphor are little clumps that are deposited on the pond floor and in this species in Jefferson salamander, typically the males will perform like a courtship. the females where they kind of do like this funny little dance and they try to lead the female over the spermatophore. And she has an apparatus called the Ika that picks up the spermatophore. And there have been some studies to suggest that the males would, would prefer to court the pure Jefferson salamander females. But the uni sexuals will also sometimes get in there to be quartered and possibly just steal the spur metaphors without a courtship.

Meredith 9:50

Oh my gosh. So I mean, I, this is so fascinating'cause you like kind of think of like mating dances and displays as like, you know, mostly in the bird territory or you, or it's so vocal with like frog species, but that's really cool that they've got this like little sexy dance

Jessica 10:09

do.

Meredith 10:09

they do.

Jessica 10:10

Yeah.

Meredith 10:10

That's, that's awesome. So we talked how they need like those mature, intact deciduous forests, but then they also have these unisexual salamanders in the mix. Are these their main threats or like what is threatening the Jefferson salamander?

Jessica 10:26

Yeah, so I mean, historically you know, before European colonization, they probably would've been a bit more widespread on the landscape were. And so of course overall habitat loss in southern Ontario has led to the loss of some populations. Today we see the threats primarily being things like development. So still, you know, are getting plowed under for development. Development can also impact the hydro period of the ponds though too. Things like you know, building neighborhoods quarrying, anything that draws the water table down or takes water away from the breeding ponds is a threat. Then also I see in a lot of populations that are warming, climate and climate change is really a threat to these ponds because they're shallow and they only form in the spring. So when we get not a lot of snow during the winter, There's no water to fill the breeding ponds in the spring. So there's been a few winters lately where we had very little snow cover over the winter, not a lot of water. And they basically need water in the pond from their breeding, the time they initiate breeding, which is in like late March. Until the larvae would disperse in like late August, early September. And so if the ponds are drying up prematurely for whatever reason, that's like a, a fairly significant threat. And then other things that we see are, you know, pollution they're sensitive to changes in their environment'cause they absorbed, and, and whatever chemicals are in the water through their skin. So that's another threat to salamander. So like in agricultural situations, you might get high inputs of chemicals. Yeah, so they're facing a lot of threats today. The majority of populations that we have left in Ontario occur along the Niagara Escarpment. So there are, you know, provisions in place, the Niagara Escarpment plan and trying to keep those areas protected. But then there are also are disjunct areas where the salamander occurs, like in Waterloo region, down in Norfolk County.

Meredith 12:32

Do we have a pretty good idea of where our populations are, or do we think that there's, you know, more to be discovered, rediscovered.

Jessica 12:42

Yeah, I think we have a, a fairly confident, a fairly high confidence in their overall distribution, so we kind of know where we could potentially find them. But are there. Breeding ponds yet to be discovered? Probably within that range, you know, ones that occur on private property that no one's ever gone to look at are for sure potentially supporting the species. We did myself and the Norris lab, Dr. Ryan Norris, who I think you've had on your podcast before. We published a paper a few years ago. That involved developing a species distribution model for Jefferson salamander. So he had a student look at all the potential locations that these salamanders could occur based on the habitat parameters. But we are still yet to ground truth it. So there are areas that were identified as high potential based on the topography, the vegetation cover and, and the known distribution of the salamander that we could go check. And, and we would like to do that in the future.

Meredith 13:43

Yeah, ground truthing, some studies that would be kind. It sounds kind of fun, like you know, getting out and actually seeing, yeah,

Jessica 13:50

Yeah.

Meredith 13:51

so when we were listing the threats, quite a few and knowing its range definitely helps. Protect the species, but what actions are being taken to help prevent the extinction of Jefferson Salamander?

Jessica 14:06

So in Ontario there is a, a Jefferson Salamander Recovery Team. So that's a, a group of individuals representing different organizations like conservation authorities, the provincial ministry,

Meredith 14:19

I.

Jessica 14:19

I'm on the team, there's academics on the team. So these are all individuals or organizations that have an invested interest in protecting the species and they do actions. You know that, that are working towards benefiting the species. One of the biggest things, oh, this is actually a threat I forgot to mention, was road mortality. Road mortality is a huge threat to the species, particularly in scenarios where you get roads. areas between a breeding pond and their overwintering or their summer forging areas.'cause they ha they're forced across the road. And so another beneficial action that people and organizations have done in Ontario are things like temporary road closures during the migration period. Installing permanent infrastructure like eco passages to help the cell managers cross the road in a safe manner. Then on top of that, just like general habitat enhancements, things like making ponds deeper so they don't dry up as early in the season. You know, removing invasive species or improving the quality of the habitat and making connections between the habitat that may be have been degraded by things like agriculture.

Meredith 15:30

In these road closures. I mean, they make the news I feel like every single year. And for the most part I understand like there's a lot of public support. I. For these road closures. And I think it's like a really great story to highlight too, because you know, I think a lot of people are afraid of these. Endangered species in urban environments, like not having the support or people are like, you know, not in my backyard. Like, I want these animals to persist, but I don't want it to impact my life. But I feel like it's a really successful story of, yeah, it's just a temporary closure. You can still use the road majority of the year, but it's that timing window that really allows this species to, you know, persist and like take away some of that threat.

Jessica 16:19

Absolutely. Yeah. I, I always am a big advocate of any time we can engage the public in taking ownership and helping to protect a species. And I think the biggest tool that we can provide people is just educating them on why that's important. The two main road closures in Southern Ontario that I'm aware of that occur are the King Road in Burlington, which is closed annually, and that usually makes the news. It's a hard closure, meaning like no cars can get through. And then the other one that I have been involved with studying is in, in on Stoneville Road in Richmond Hill. And in that case the Toronto Region Conservation Authority has worked with the town of Richmond Hill to do what they call a soft closure. So in that case, they can't close road entirely'cause there's a residential street that people have to access. They have to be able to get home. And so we did publish a study that showed that. The soft closure helps but there's still large mortalities of salamanders even with a soft closure. So like the hard closure they do in Burlington every year I anticipate has a significant benefit to that population.

Meredith 17:31

What would a soft closure be? Just like only residents can go through or.

Jessica 17:35

Yeah, the road is closed off to a certain point, like to the residential street. So, and then there is a sign. So the idea is that only the people that need to access those houses would go through. But inevitably people still try to go through, realize that there's a harder barrier further down, and then turn around. So in that case, they're actually driving that section of road twice because they go down and then turn around and come back.

Meredith 17:59

I feel like we need to get in touch with like Google Maps or someone and be like, Hey, if you could dissuade people from using this road,

Jessica 18:07

the town has gone to Great Lakes. There's even a staff member at the town who will go out there and stand there to try and stop people from driving down the road and turn around on the nights. You know, it's fairly predictable when they're gonna move in terms of like temperature and precipitation, which means that that's poor person standing out there in the rain.

Meredith 18:25

I.

Jessica 18:26

But, you know, it, it does help, I think, and they have tried to do some media outreach to reach like a wider audience to let people know, but it is challenging. Ville Road is a, a major throughway road. And so it can be, you know, an inconvenience to people to have to go around a different way.

Meredith 18:44

And you were saying that education about why these road closures happen is a really important piece of this. What kind of things are you trying to get across? Like is it communicating why people should care about the Jefferson Salamander? Is it why it's important?

Jessica 19:00

Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. It's one helping people to understand why our, some of our species are at risk and why that kind of affects all of us. Know, we lose a species, it's very difficult to get it back if, if not in possible in some cases. And so salamanders, not only are the salamanders. Interesting and fascinating from you know, just a learning perspective. But salamanders also play like a really key role in healthy ecosystems. There's a high biodiversity of salamander species within Ontario's woodlands, and they do a really important role in terms of like cycling nutrients. So there's an ecological benefit to having them around as well.

Meredith 19:48

Recycling nutrients, is it that they're. Like cleaning up leaf litter or like, I actually don't know, like is it They're eating insects.

Jessica 19:57

eat insects, they eat earthworms. They eat a wide variety of invertebrates. And then the other thing is that they're taking some of those nutrients because they move between aquatic and terrestrial systems. They're actually transferring nutrients between those systems that otherwise wouldn't be able to be transferred. And in some cases for some species like redback salamander, which are the really common little guys you see when you flip over dead logs, i, I saw one paper once that said like, the biomass of salamanders in woodlands, like that is higher than the biomass of all other species put together. So there's a lot more of them than you think are out there. And they're also, because they're sensitive to changes in the environment, they're good indicators for us of how healthy a system is as well.

Meredith 20:39

And when we're protecting, you know, either the connectivity for salamanders or protecting their habitat, like what other species, what other benefits I. Like do we see from taking those actions?

Jessica 20:53

Yeah, so there's, there's a bit of a, a ripple, a conservation ripple effect. We say when we do things to protect these Jefferson salamanders. One because they, they need fairly large areas for a species to carry out their life processes and then also like disperse and find new breeding ponds. That's a fairly large catchment area. So if we're protecting that habitat, then we're protecting one mature woodland, which is really important for a variety of other species like breeding birds. If we're protecting the breeding ponds. They are also often breeding ponds for other ambi salamanders, like spotted salamander, blue spotted salamander. And they're also breeding ponds for other amphibians including frogs and toads. all those species that might be a lot more common in our landscape are also kind of benefiting from the protection of those areas.

Meredith 21:46

And a common theme that has come up on this podcast is like, let's keep common species common, because it can be a lot of work to bring species back from being threatened. So, you know, those are, even though they're not endangered, they're still worthy species to be, you know, we need to protect their habitat because otherwise we're going to have another species that we need to intervene with.

Jessica 22:09

That's right. Yeah.

Meredith 22:11

And how can people who are like, oh my gosh, I love salamanders, or I wanna protect my mature woodlot that's, you know, behind my housing development. Like how can people who are listening help with either salamander conservation or just help species at risk in general?

Jessica 22:30

Well, I always think, you know, first and foremost, be good stewards of your land. And for the most part, people who are concerned about salamanders are probably, you know, we're preaching to the choir. They're probably already do things to protect and conserve resources. sharing information and educating people, and then also like supporting. Actions taken by conservation authorities or municipalities, or the province to protect species at risk. So, for example, right now, just this last week the province has proposed sweeping changes to the Endangered Species Act. So be an advocate for and vocal about your opinions on that. You know, we have 30 days right now to comment on the public registry about what those changes mean to people and to species at risk. So just being involved and engaged in, in the current climate would be effective. I think.

Meredith 23:22

I was going to ask you about that, but I know it's a really hot topic. It's one that I feel really. Really strongly about because, well, obviously I do this podcast. I care about the future of endangered species in our province and. It was also rolled out at a time where I feel like they were hoping it wouldn't attract attention. It was like the Thursday before the long weekend. And even my dad, who is very tuned in, you know, it was, I was talking to him this week and he was like, I didn't hear about that. So I think it's really important, even if you think people know to be like, Hey, did you hear about this? Do you wanna comment on this? There's. I mean, eco Justice has petitions. Ontario Nature might not have theirs up yet, but I, I am sure they will. So I think that's great advice and making sure that if you love these animals, you let other people know about them.

Jessica 24:16

Mm-hmm. And I think it's important for the province to not just hear from, know, groups like that have an ecological focus, but everyday people who are just concerned about conservation of. Are rare and endangered species because they're becoming more and more rare in southern Ontario.

Meredith 24:36

Yeah, and maybe, maybe we'll switch gears a a little bit on a, on a happier note like, do you have any fun stories from the field like working with Jefferson Sal Mater? Because I imagine going out and surveying on these rainy nights can be quite an experience.

Jessica 24:56

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely had some mornings where I've pulled traps out of the water and they are like chocked full of salamanders. I think I, my record is like 47 or something in one trap, it was like heavy, like to pick it up was significantly heavy and my kids were with me, so they were just like ecstatic about that. So that was pretty exciting. And I think in that case, what happens, you know, is like a few females may get in the trap and then all the males go in there to try and attract their attention. So those mornings, when it's been a really good night for salamanders and checking your traps in the morning those are always exciting. I've definitely had some long, wet nights. I would say like the most eventful story that I remember from doing salamander trapping is when I drove into kind of a. A remote area and I was parking in an agricultural field that was frozen. And as the day progressed, we had so many salamanders and we were processing them. So measuring them and tagging them. And as the day progressed, it got really warm. And so I left kind of late in the day. And when I went to leave, my truck had sunk down into the mud'cause the ground had unfrozen and I was stuck in the back of this agricultural field. And I had to get a farmer to come pull me out with his tractor.

Meredith 26:17

That is the last thing you want when you're wrapping up your field work to be like, oh no. And we, and we do, we go into these places too where you are like, I can't call ca a, I better get in touch with a farmer'cause they ca can't reach me.

Jessica 26:30

Yeah. And of course

Meredith 26:31

But

Jessica 26:32

was like, what were you doing back here? And I was like, catching salamanders.

Meredith 26:37

yeah. And actually, what does a salamander trap look like? Like how do you trap a salamander?

Jessica 26:44

It depends on what I'm trying to figure out. So if I am looking at trying to understand movements, I use pitfall traps. So traps sunk into the ground usually combined with fencing, so they kind of run along the fence and then fall into a trap. And then in breeding ponds, we usually use minnow traps to, to trap them in the ponds.

Meredith 27:05

Which I guess if there's no fish in these ponds, that's a pretty good trap for salamanders too.

Jessica 27:10

Yeah,

Meredith 27:11

Awesome. Well sounds like, you know, you're very passionate about Jefferson salamanders and what they're doing. Do you have time for some rapid fire questions?

Jessica 27:22

Okay. Let's do it.

Meredith 27:27

Okay. What do you think is the most underrated or overlooked thing about the species?

Jessica 27:34

How long their toes are.

Meredith 27:39

Really?

Jessica 27:39

Yes. They have exceptionally long toes. If you look at pictures, it's actually an identifying feature about them and the uni sexuals that they look very similar to. Don't usually have long toes.

Meredith 27:50

Do they have long toes to like help them dig?

Jessica 27:55

Yeah. I don't

Meredith 27:56

Oh, okay.

Jessica 27:57

weird morphological trait they have.

Meredith 28:01

Yeah. Do any of our salamander species climb trees?

Jessica 28:07

Not that I'm aware of. I've seen,

Meredith 28:09

Okay.

Jessica 28:10

like little Easter Newt Fs, the terrestrial stages, like climb up kind of logs and stuff, but I've never seen any of them. Like none of them are, are boreal like would climb a tree, I don't think.

Meredith 28:20

I think I just have it in my head because I'm getting a lot of the America's promotions and there's the wandering salamander I think that like climbs up these huge redwoods and glides down. So I was like, do we have anything like that?

Jessica 28:34

don't.

Meredith 28:35

But

Jessica 28:35

that sounds

Meredith 28:36

just long toes.

Jessica 28:37

Long

Meredith 28:38

Just long toes. What do you think is the biggest myth about salamanders or Jefferson Salamander?

Jessica 28:45

Probably that they hybridize with the uni sexuals that terms often use as if, you know they're breeding together. But that's not the case. As I explained, the unisex is just actually use the sperm to initiate egg development. They don't actually hybridize with Jefferson salamanders.

Meredith 29:03

I. I, I feel like that's probably an easy thing to confuse, but they're truly distinct species. They're just stealing the sperm.

Jessica 29:12

Yes. Yes.

Meredith 29:14

Do Jefferson salamanders have any hidden talents that you think people might not know about? I.

Jessica 29:21

Two things come to mind that I think most people don't know about. One is that they can travel quite far. I think the record for an adult that's been tracked is like about a kilometer in one, you know, stint. So that's. think a lot further than people realize they could travel. And the other hidden talent that I didn't know about until I started studying them really closely was that sometimes when they are scared, they often kind of do this waving of their head. Which I interpret to be similar to like a what a snake does when they're trying to like distract, you know, or intimidate prey. And I don't know if that's true, but the sal, I've seen the salamanders do it as well, so it makes me think that they're trying to like scare me when I'm handling them.

Meredith 30:07

I, maybe they're just, they've got a lot of dances. They've got their sexy dance and then they've got their, I'm scaring you. Dance.

Jessica 30:13

it could be. Yeah.

Meredith 30:16

Yeah. If Jefferson Salamander were to give a Ted talk to humans, what do you think they're gonna say to us?

Jessica 30:25

Back off humans. Yeah. I, I think they would say like, can't we

Meredith 30:32

I.

Jessica 30:32

just like live in harmony? You take what you need and we'll take what we need.

Meredith 30:38

Yeah, that's, that's pretty fair. I feel like a lot of species would like to tell us, be like, Hey, you have your space. Let me have mine. What has been the most surprising thing that you've learned working with this species?

Jessica 30:52

Well, I think, the distance that they travel was one thing that really surprised me that it's quite significant. The other thing that really surprised me is how. Vulnerable and what, what a low rate of survival the juveniles have. So when the juveniles leave their breeding ponds to go off into the world in one study that we did, you know, I captured in one year, 600 metamorphs, leaving a pond. So that's a significant number that made it to that stage, and they dispersed, and I marked all of them and never found any of them ever again. So that suggests that they either went further than I even thought, or there's just a really high rate of mortality, which also makes sense'cause they're a small little thing that I think a lot of things would eat.

Meredith 31:40

What, what kind of things would be eating it? Is it like squirrels, birds, all of the above.

Jessica 31:46

birds, raccoons turkeys, wild turkeys. We've had sites where breeding ponds dry up quite a bit, so the pool of water gets quite small. And I've seen raccoon tracks and Turkey tracks where they just, you know, feed on them like a smorgasborg. Also, things like, you know, garter snakes all those things are out there eating small mammals, eating juvenile salamanders.

Meredith 32:09

I guess their habitat would be quite different than like, say bull frogs or like some of the larger frogs. So hopefully they're not interacting too much.

Jessica 32:18

Yeah, no. Bullfrogs live in like large water bodies and large ponds that typically don't have Sal Jefferson Salamander.

Meredith 32:26

And if Jefferson Salamander were to have a superpower,

Jessica 32:30

Hmm.

Meredith 32:31

what do you think it would be?

Jessica 32:33

I think it would be invisibility because they're already so hard to find and they're, you know, visible to us most of the year. So

Meredith 32:45

That's a good one. Yeah, I like you said, there's, you know, they're biomass, like they can be huge contributors to the forest and yet most people aren't going to see them unless they're out on those specific times.

Jessica 32:59

Totally. Yeah.

Meredith 33:01

And what you do for work is, it's pretty unique. What has been the funniest or most unexpected reaction you've gotten when you tell people what you do?

Jessica 33:11

Oh, that's a good one. I usually get really positive reactions. People are immediately interested in hearing more, you know, because I often say like, oh, what do you do for work? And they're like, oh, I am an accountant. then they just kind of don't want to talk about it anymore. And they say, what do you do for work? I'm like, oh, I'm a biologist. I study salamanders and butterflies. And they're like, oh my God, tell me everything about that. so yeah, I think for the most part, I, I can't think of anything funny or unexpected, but people are generally like really interested. The fact that I do that, and I think a lot of people are surprised you can make money doing it.

Meredith 33:44

Yes. Yes. And actually on that note, do you have like a favorite. Fun fact. Either it can be about any animal that when people are like, oh, tell me more about what you do that you like to, to drop at like a dinner party.

Jessica 33:57

I mean, I study my first, and my first love is butterflies. And thing that I think people are most surprised to find out about butterflies is that don't just grow wings and turn into butterflies. They actually like completely break down into like a metabolic goop and reform into a butterfly. And I think that is really something that blows people's minds.

Meredith 34:21

It's unfathomable, I think as a mammal to picture how that would, how that would work. And do you have a favorite like. Feature or behavior that you've seen maybe in salamanders, could also be in butterflies that makes you just go like, nature is so weird and amazing.

Jessica 34:43

Yeah, I mean, I think the, the. Salamander courtship dance. You might be able to find it on YouTube if you like Google it.'cause it is hilarious and amazing. It really seems like they're into it. And, you know, the salamander, he's got the move. So yeah, that like any of the dancing, like, you know, the Bird of Paradise and Papua New Guinea doing their dances. Like, I just love that. I love it.

Meredith 35:08

Yes. Okay. I will definitely try and YouTube it because that sounds like it's definitely worth a watch

Jessica 35:15

Yes, it is.

Meredith 35:16

and. Like you said, you know, not many people know that you can make a career out of this, make money out of conservation. Did you have an aha moment when you knew like this is what you wanted to do and that you wanted to dedicate your life to saving species or at least learning about species?

Jessica 35:36

Yeah, there was never an aha moment for me. Like my parents were not naturalists. I didn't have anyone when I was young kind of guiding that interest for me. I, my aha moment in terms of heading into this field was, there was like an optional day when I was in high school to go to the University of Waterloo to learn about the different programs they had. And I, I did it, not so much'cause I thought I was going to university, but mainly did it because I got to miss a day of high school if I went. I ended up, you know, selecting a few different programs to check out, one of which was environmental studies and. I definitely had an aha moment that day where, you know, a guy was talking about the different courses they had in biology and environmental studies and I thought, yes, this is for me. and so that's, that's kind of what set me off on my career path

Meredith 36:27

Yeah, well it is, you know, a less commonly tread path,

Jessica 36:32

for

Meredith 36:33

Than I think, right? And it's, unless you have that exposure, like if, if your parents aren't in the environmental field, you don't necessarily come across it like you would, you know, like a banker or a teacher. And so I think those days are super important.

Jessica 36:48

They are. Yeah, like I was always I always wanted to be outside. I was always fascinated by nature. I just didn't know at that point, you know, when I was young, what my, like what options were to actually have a career in this field. So I do a lot of outreach in that regard right now. You know, I often go to university classes and talk to them about consulting work and the benefits of doing this kind of work. So.

Meredith 37:13

And before I let you go, I had just one last question. How are Jefferson Salamanders doing? Do we have hope that they're gonna be sticking around for the long haul? Have you seen any successes so far?

Jessica 37:28

Yes. I mean, I think the fact that the Niagara Gartman is protected for the most part bode well for this species. also have to keep in mind that we're at the extreme northern end of their range and further south in the United States. They're doing relatively well. The fact that they're just a consideration now. So, you know, when you get municipalities building roads, if there are salamanders in the area, there's, they consider putting inco passages. Now that's like a kind of becoming a normal thing. It's not something that's so outrageous and out there you know, mitigating for these kinds of things has become more commonplace. So that's, that gives me hope.

Meredith 38:09

That is very helpful, and I'm sure it's one of those things that it's much easier to do when you're putting in the road than to retrofit roads.

Jessica 38:19

Yes, it

Meredith 38:19

Okay.

Jessica 38:20

is. So think about it in advance. Yeah.

Meredith 38:22

Yeah. Well Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. My cat is letting me know it is lunchtime, so before he gets angry and knocks over my mic, I should let you go. But I really appreciate your time and, and thank you so much for chatting with me.

Jessica 38:40

Yeah. Thank you Meredith for having me. It was fun.

Meredith 38:42

And that's a wrap on this episode with the Jefferson Salamander and Jessica Linton. A huge thank you to Jessica for sharing her passion and her knowledge. I think the story of the Jefferson Salamander is a really powerful example of how we can be good neighbors and how we can live and coexist with all of the creatures in our urban environment. So now it is time to test your knowledge. Did you learn something new, true or false? Jefferson Salamanders. Hybridize with unisexual salamanders. The answer is false. Unisexual salamanders do steal sperm from the Jefferson salamander, but they use it to stimulate their own reproduction. But because they clone themselves and don't actually use any of the genetic material from the Jefferson salamanders, you can't really call them hybrids. And of course all of this mating happens in ephemeral ponds. So we talk about ephemeral habitat quite often, ephemeral ponds are basins or shallow depressions that remain flooded for short periods of time during the year, so not the full year. They may hold water for several months, and then they may not fill up with water again for several years. It all depends on how much rainfall or snow melt we get. I've had the opportunity to participate in lots of amphibian monitoring and whether I was looking for frogs or salamanders, ephemeral ponds were always a good place to start. I've seen a couple of salamanders in my life, but I've never come across a breeding pond like the ones Jessica described, so I'm going to need to add that to next year's field trip list. I will say though, that I have come across ponds with a bunch of newts in them, which have a very different lifecycle than salamanders. In that the adults are the ones who are aquatic. I found'em to be absolutely mesmerizing, almost like Little Dragons swimming in the forest. Not to get too fantastical, but it made me take a moment and look around to see if there were fairies in the forest too. Species like Newts and the Jefferson salamanders bring so much magic to our forests and our lives. So please, if you're listening, go check out the show notes, read up on the proposed changes to the Endangered Species Act and take action. Sign a petition right to your mp. Send in your comments. We need to be the voice for the voice list right now, and of course. If you wanna help out this podcast too, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. It helps rarefied reach even more people who care about protecting our planet's rare species. And as always, you can follow us on Instagram at rarefied pod and sign up for our newsletter on our website. Until next time, get out there and explore the wild, because every species has a story and every one of us can make a difference. I'm your host, Meredith Meer. Thank you for listening and happy trails.