Northern Spotted Owl: Messengers of the Old Growth Forests

In this episode of Rarefied, host Meredith Meeker talks with Jasmine McCulligh (she/her), the facility coordinator at the Northern Spotted Owl Breeding Program. They discuss the critical situation of the Northern Spotted Owl, its unique reliance on old growth forests, and the significant challenges it faces from habitat loss and competition with Barred Owls. Jasmine shares insights into the breeding program, the complexities of reintroducing owls into the wild, and the importance of conservation efforts. Listeners will learn about the owl's specialized needs, the efforts to protect and expand their habitat, and the intricate care involved in breeding and releasing these endangered birds. Join us to discover the story of the Northern Spotted Owl and the dedicated efforts to ensure its survival.

www.nsobreedingprogram.com

00:00 Introduction to Rarefied Podcast

00:49 Meet the Northern Spotted Owl

02:32 The Habitat and Challenges of the Northern Spotted Owl

07:32 Conservation Efforts and Breeding Programs

15:28 The Role of Barred Owls and Ecosystem Impact

22:02 Funding and Support for the Owl Program

23:04 Breeding Program Successes

25:21 Personal Experiences and Favorite Memories

26:57 Owl Personalities and Behaviors

29:30 Rapid Fire Questions

39:29 Concluding Thoughts and Final Questions

40:28 Episode Wrap-Up and Final Notes

Transcript

Theme Song 0:00

In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy. Let's listen close, let's take a stand, to keep the wild across the land. In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy.

Meredith 0:23

Welcome you found us. Let the adventure begin. This is rarefied the podcast where we're going to learn to love some of our rarest and most imperiled species. I'm your host Meredith Meeker, and in this week's episode, we are hiking into ancient forests that are almost as endangered as the species that live there. This week, our species represents all species, threatened by the destruction of old growth forests. Meet the Northern spotted owl. The Northern Spotted Owl is a globally vulnerable species that is critically imperiled throughout most of its range, which spans from BC Canada down through the States to California. She weighs in at 700 grams or 25 ounces, stands up to 48 centimeters tall, but her wingspan is over a meter wide. But she is so much more than her stats. I first became familiar with this gorgeous species when I read a super niche murder mystery, A Hoot to Kill, which follows a young female consulting biologist who stumbles upon a dead body while out doing surveys for the Spotted Owl. Let me tell you, reading it as a junior consulting biologist, I was enthralled, but I definitely learned more about this owl during my afternoon chat with our guest than I did reading a fictional murder mystery. So to teach us more about this stunning creature that is disappearing from the wild, we are joined by Jasmine McCullough, the facility coordinator at the Northern Spotted Owl Breeding Program. Jasmine joined the Northern spotted Owl breeding program after earning her BSC in wildlife biology from the University of Guelph in 2013. Okay. After over a decade of dedication, her dream came true in 2022 When the first northern spotted owl breeding program owls were released, Jasmine continues to manage the daily operations at the breeding center and still enjoys the hands-on animal care, especially the daily encounters with the owls. So let's jump into this episode and all things Northern Spotted Owl. And we're talking about the Northern spotted owl today. Very exciting. I think that this is a species that maybe people have seen in the news before. Maybe they haven't heard of it. So for those who aren't familiar with it. What is a northern spotted owl? What makes it special?

Jasmine 2:50

The Northern Spot Owl is a medium sized owl, so they're mostly chocolate brown with spots on the back of their head. Hence the name Spotted Owl. They have dark eyes and they are native to the Pacific Northwest. So their range extends from southern BC, all the way down to Northern California for the Northern Spot Owl Subspecies. And then there are two other subspecies of Spot Owl, that only are found in the United States. So that would be the California Spot Owl and the Mexican Spot Owl. but here in Canada we just have the Northern Spot Owl.

Meredith 3:24

And so you're saying medium kind of bird. I know that they sometimes get confused with other owls. Do they have their own song or like how can you identify them from, I mean, luckily their range doesn't seem to overlap with those other two subspecies, but with other owls.

Jasmine 3:43

So the Spotted Owl has a pretty distinct call. So if you hear a Spot Owl it'll make a typical four note call. So it's like a. call that. Something like that. I can never do it justice. And the spot all is a rare species, so it's only gonna be found in old growth habitat. So, you can look at the identifying features like the color and the shape and the size, but habitat's gonna play a really important role

Meredith 4:12

and old growth forest, like that's a pretty specialized habitat. Like how are northern spotted owls using that? Like why are they only found there? I.

Jasmine 4:24

Yeah, so the spot Owl is a specialist species, so it is reliant on old growth forests. So that would mean forests that are around like a hundred to 300 years old, primarily conifers forests. So they liked Douglas furs and, and western red cedars, and they need that type of habitat for a couple of reasons. So they're adapted to nest in those. Sized trees. So you need these large trees that over time have broken branches or tops have fallen off creating nesting sites of a decent size for the spot all. So they are cavity nesters. So when a branch falls, it creates a perfect nest for them. they're also really reliant on flying squirrels. So the flying squirrel population is closely tied with the old growth forest. So they'll, they'll rely primarily on eating, flying squirrels

Meredith 5:15

so this is a fairly like iconic species representing old growth forests. Is it because they're so specialized? Is that why they're under threat? Or what are the threats that are facing the northern spot at Owl? I.

Jasmine 5:29

So, because the northern spot only lives in bold growth forests and that type of forest has also been heavily logged pretty much just since Europeans came to North America. So the type of habitat is, lost as well as fragmented. So what is left is in smaller amounts and spot. Owls need about 30 square kilometers for a single pair, for a territory. So. And that type of habitat just doesn't really exist in south coastal BC anymore. It's a lot of cities and metropolitan areas. And then whatever is here for the most part has been fragmented. So that has caused a huge population decline for the owl. And there's also been the range expansion of the Bard Owl. So the Bard Owl is non-native to British Columbia and Pacific Northwest in general. They're more from eastern side of the continent. And they've only been in the Pacific Northwest for the last like 50 or so years. So they're fairly new to the area and they can live in densities, like much higher than owls. And they are competing for habitat and food and everything'cause they are generalist species. And the Bard Owl. It is kind of controversial sometimes about like how people classify it, if it's a natural range expansion and kind of looking at it from a perspective of. S it have got here if Europeans weren't here? And probably not because the start out as a forest species. So it's a generalist forest species, but it still needs trees, so it wouldn't have crossed the prairies. The grasslands had Europeans not. Decided to to have settlements and, and trees. So that kind of created Habitat Islands for the Baral to kind of hop across the continent. And then also the Rockies would've been a natural geographical barrier. So it was a barrier for humans. And so what we decided to do was create roads and pathways through that barrier which the Bardo has also utilized. So, there it's human caused range expansion, which has been very rapid and caused issues for a lot of native species. Included the spot owl.

Meredith 7:32

And this might be a bit like, we'll talk more maybe about the Bard Owl and, and actions that are being taken to like help prevent the extinction of Northern Spotted Owl. But you know, you talked about how I. There's habitat, but some of it's fragmented and they need these 30 square kilometer chunks of habitat, but birds can fly. Like why? Why is that a limiting factor for these species? I.

Jasmine 7:59

So this bot owl won't fly over clear cuts and it doesn't use, it's, it's, it's so specialized to the gold growth forest. So we've seen even sometimes. Bodies of water can be a geographical barrier for spot ELs, they're, they're just not really that keen to leave their little pocket of habitat. And just generally for a forest bird trying to travel outside of that forest from fragment to fragment is going to be putting it at higher risk for predation and it's gonna be lower food availability and just causing a lot of. Unnecessary stress to, to fly from fragment to fragment. So they either don't do it, they don't even try or they don't do it successfully.

Meredith 8:41

That makes a a lot of sense. I think, you know, a lot of people think of like migratory birds or birds that are like making these long distances, but you know, that's not. The strategy that Northern Spotted s have, have used, they've had these territories. So I think that's like a really important thing for people to understand. They can't just like pick up and, and move

Jasmine 9:02

Yeah, no spot. All is, are home bodies for sure.

Meredith 9:06

and what is their population like?

Jasmine 9:10

In Canada. We're difficult to quantify because there is varying surveying efforts. So because they are living in such remote areas, our team is just not able to go out and like survey some of those areas. So it's kind of hard to get a number on it, but the number is closer to zero. Then anyone would like, so, which is why we're doing the releases. So we haven't had. For really any wild peas in the wild for a few years. And yeah, they've, they've primarily been really surveying in the Fraser Canyon area. So like the, the more like northern and western areas of the territories have not been checked for spot owls just because of staff capacity. But it's unlikely there are very many.

Meredith 9:54

So this is a very threatened species. We're really trying to put in some interventions to make sure this species doesn't disappear forever. What are those actions? You kind of alluded a little bit to one of them, but if you wanna talk about your, your program

Jasmine 10:12

yeah, my primary goal, my work is breeding spot owls at a conservation breeding center and raising them and then releasing them into protected oil growth forests. So my day-to-day is, is the best care possible to the, the owls that I've been given the responsibility to care for and breeding them and, and those chicks. then be released into the forest or retained for breeding, depending on various factors. So the release component is fairly new. We just started in 2022 and, it's something that we're learning every year, and this program is the only one of its kind for spot owls. It's never been done before. So we spent the last 15 years learning how to breed the owls. And then now we're at the learning point of, of how do we prepare them for release and what they look like on the landscape once they have been released.

Meredith 11:10

Yeah, I think we've talked to like a couple people who've done different captive breeding situations and there's so much that goes into it. And even if the species is well studied, like you know, those transition peer, like how to get them to mate in captivity, how do you release them successfully? These all seem to be like fairly. Major hurdles that each program goes through.

Jasmine 11:35

Yeah, I relate to a lot of other conservation breeding programs for sure, with their, their trials and tribulations. And I think the learnings, you just have to like, take everything that maybe doesn't go the way you expected and learn from it and, and you get one shot a year to do this breeding. So we have learned a lot and apply new things every single year. But there's reason that. These owls specifically are being difficult to breed. Like we're trying to take a long lived species and maximize their, their reproductive output. And in the wild they're breeding once every other year. And in their 15 years of life, they have to produce one offspring to replace themselves. And we're asking them to do four times that every year. So it's, it's challenging. Their biology is just not. Meant to breed at the, the scale we're doing, but we're at the point now that that's really the only option we have to even have the species here

Meredith 12:34

and these areas that, you know, the protected old growth forest that we have left it. Do we have a good sense of whether it's large enough and healthy enough to support the owls once they've been released?

Jasmine 12:50

So the field team is responsible for going out and like really looking at the habitat and they are confident that the habitat is appropriate. And right now we're working with the provincial government and they have about. Territory for about 250 owls to live. And that's protected areas, and that's meaning like in parks and, and management areas and, and that area. We're not releasing spot owls into every single hectare of that territory in the next couple of years. So this is a long-term project, and so maybe the habitat's not. Perfectly ideal right now, but if it has continued to be protected in, you know, 50 years when we have owls to release in that area, that will, the trees will grow and over time it'll become appropriate for this spot owl. So we're pretty confident that the, the territories that are protected are good. And we have a team that's out there like, like boots on the ground looking at the forest and evaluating it and just determining if this is the best spot for owls to go.

Meredith 13:52

I mean going from a potential zero to 250, massive undertaking, and yeah, it's gonna take some time, but is really hopeful that to know that there is that. Potential. And you know that hope of recovery, at least to those numbers.

Jasmine 14:10

And this is something that like we've had to learn from, like starting at nothing with the knowledge that we've gained. It's it's gonna be a slow start, but then hopefully, like we're at the point of like rapid production and, and scaling up really quickly and. 250 is not something that is gonna be easy to accomplish. But we're hopeful for that. And I wouldn't be dedicating my life to the species if I didn't think that was possible. So yeah, and we have partners that we are gonna have to look at. There are some owls in the United States too that would have to help, help with the genetic component and working as like a species level instead of like a countries and. Looking at borders like the owls don't care about borders, so we have to work with the the governments in the states as well to, to really have a healthy population genetically in the future.

Meredith 15:05

That makes a lot of sense. And are there other, so we've got the reintroduction program, captive breeding program. We're protecting habitat and hopefully allowing more habitat to, to grow up. Are there any other actions that are sort of being taken to. Help the spotted owl. I know you mentioned a little bit about barred owls, like, I don't know if you want to talk about the management of them or.

Jasmine 15:34

Yeah, the, the bardo, because it is non-native has caused some eco ecosystem. Like this, it's not balanced anymore because of what the Bard Owl has kind of introduced. Or the, the Bard Owl has itself in an old growth ecosystem that wasn't adapt and evolve to have this type of predator there. So in the areas that we're planning to release the spotted owls they are being managed so the barred owls are being inventoried using aus. So that's a sound device that the field team puts out into the forest and records to. Try to get a sense of what owls are in the area. And then if they hear Bard owl, and this is a prime habitat that spot owls are gonna be released into those barred owls are being lethally removed. And that's just to give even one spot owl a chance by removing those bard owls because they're just not gonna be able to compete with the number of bardos that are gonna be in that territory. Usually bar owls can be in densities like three to six times higher than what you would find spotted owls in. So it's just, you take one little spot owl, put it out in the forest, and it's supposed to compete with six bar dials, like you're not even getting it, giving it a shot out of, out of the gate. So we're just kind trying to help it out by, by removing those bar owls in those territories, that owl spot owls will be going into.

Meredith 16:57

Are about Bard Owls significantly larger than spotted owls, or they're just because they can eat so much, they're more generalists, so they have wider prey that can sustain them. Like, what's going on there?

Jasmine 17:09

Bardos just generally are more aggressive. They are larger, but I think to the naked eye, most people would not really notice them being significantly larger. But they are. Just they eat anything that moves. So whenever people have a story, for me, it's like, I was walking in the park and I wa and then as soon as they say I was walking in the park, I'm like, somebody's gonna get, get attacked by a bar out by the end of the story. So, and that's just like, that's their personality. Like if, if wildlife can have a personality on a species level, it's, it's that they're just aggressive. They'll hunt whatever moves and, that's, that's making them successful is that they can just thrive in any habitat. And then these large, large densities, and they have higher reproductive rates too, which doesn't help.

Meredith 17:55

I have like anecdotally, like even out here in the east, you know, great horned owls used to be kind of a lot more common and even around my cottage, like you'd hear great horned owls at night. And over the last couple years there seems to be a shift in finding a great horne now has become like really difficult. But you're hearing the barred owls now, which like you never would've before. So just anecdotally, it's very interesting and great horned owls are, are bigger than barred owls. Like that's, it's not a size thing, but yeah, it's very interesting to, to keep an eye on what that's gonna look like.

Jasmine 18:30

Yeah. And that's like in their native habitat too, right? So just imagine something that's not even evolved to have that, that massive predator, that apex predator living in it. And, and the, it's a, it's just suppressing other owls too. So part of the inventory. Piece is that spot. Owls won't call if there's barred owls around either. So that's something that we struggle with too. And then other owl species, they're just like a nice little snack for a barred owl too. So there's stories of solid owls during like mist netting. The barred owls have learned that the bell means that there's a snack in the net. So from what I've heard from, I don't do. Mising myself. But when they're banding solids, as soon as there's a bar owl around, they just have to stop because the bar owl is just picking them off. Which is not great for, for those little solid owls either. So.

Meredith 19:19

Oh yeah. Definitely a, a big hungry new predator, which is always gonna be detrimental for an ecosystem. Another thing we've talked about on this podcast before. Breeding programs are expensive, they're intensive. Like you said, you've, you have to like dedicate your life to it. Why should people care that we bring the spotted owls, you know, back to a sustainable population? I.

Jasmine 19:47

this bottle is an umbrella species, so it's. An owl. People love owls. They're charismatic and, and lovely, and people are really drawn to them. And so when I'm saying like, let's protect this spotted owl, I'm saying, but we're also protecting, you know, the, the lichen and the, the fungus and the. The salamanders and the newts and like all of the, the snails, like all of these smaller species of plants and animals that maybe don't get the attention that they need, but they're also old growth dependent species. So and because, you know, we can protect square kilometers when we have one pair of spot owls in that, in that forest, and that's a huge amount of land that you can protect. So the umbrella species is like. You wanna protect umbrella species'cause they protect every other species that is below them. And I think too, there's like the cultural component of it too. So the spot owl isn't a a messenger for the indigenous people here in, in the, the range of the spot owl. And so just having like that importance we wanna like honor our, our First Nations and make sure that they are. Their messengers are being protected too. And and those forests that the messengers are protecting are protected. Also,

Meredith 21:08

I'm sure old growth forest. Doesn't quite meet the classification of an endangered species in and of itself. But like it's such an important habitat that if you can use an endangered species to further its protection, like that's a really important thing.'cause like you said, there'll be all these cascading effects including for other species, but also culturally as well.

Jasmine 21:29

Yeah, and I think there's so much too that we don't even know that the old Growth Forest is providing us too. So, you, you have to, you have to protect it. It's, and the spot owl is, is the way to do that.

Meredith 21:41

Yeah, and the only way we're going to increase old growth forest is to like keep protecting forests in general. Right? Because you can't plant an old growth forest and be like, oh, it's done.

Jasmine 21:51

Yeah. It's gonna take a few hundred years.

Meredith 21:54

Yeah. And for people who have already bought in, they care. How can people listening help?

Jasmine 22:02

Well, as you mentioned, it is an expensive program. So we are here on like 24 7 some parts of the year, and it's a big, Labor intensive projects, so infrastructure

Meredith 22:15

I.

Jasmine 22:15

too, and the owls need to eat, so we have a lot of fundraisers for stuff like that. People that can adopt an owl and, and get updates on the owls and just, just generally donating to the program is really helpful to help us reach our long-term goals because. As we've said, this is not something that, you know, five years from now we're gonna have 2, 250 owls. Like this is a, a long-term project that the support of like the public is important. And then also just like voting for people who you think are going to have spot owls and, and old growth for us at top, top of mind when it comes to their platforms, I think is important too.

Meredith 22:50

Voting is definitely a way to take some power for ourselves and really see what, and really put our values forward. In a very concrete way, so

Jasmine 23:01

Yeah,

Meredith 23:02

that's great advice. And I know that you're just starting the, the release portion, but what kind of successes have you seen so far with the Northern Spotted Owl?

Jasmine 23:14

For the releases specifically?

Meredith 23:15

not necessarily just for the releases, but with your breeding program?'cause that might be a little too early to talk about releases.

Jasmine 23:21

Yeah. Well, I think the breeding program, the fact that like, we're. Producing any offspring now is incredible. Like we're seeing a lot of growth and like every year it seems like more and more chicks are being produced. And something interesting we've noticed is when we first started the program, we were finding that females might not breed and produce offspring till they were like seven years old, which. Is like a long time to wait for a, for a chick to go from being born to seven years later having a chick of its own. But that was in the early years of the program and now we're finding examples of like one or two individuals, but they're breeding at like one or like the year after they're born or maybe two years after and producing offspring. So, whether that's like a husbandry thing or just an individual thing. We're finding individuals are very, like different and they have their own like patterns and stuff. But I think it's, it shows that there's like the first. Seven years of the program, we were waiting and now we're not waiting anymore. Those, those females are being born and producing offspring. So I think that's like a big highlight for me in the terms of success is just seeing that that age of reproduction has gone down to being like, I. That means they can produce more offspring in their lifetime too. So that's really exciting. And just seeing like the, when I started, I started in 2013 with the breeding program. And when we started, I think we had like eight owls and it was not really like a full-time job taking care of eight owls, but. Now there's like over 40 of them. And the program itself has grown and like, we're starting to have like really fun, unique problems and like, oh, I have too many owls. Like, where am I gonna put them? Like, that's a great problem to have. So it's always a fun discussion talking about we have too many owls.

Meredith 25:09

Yes, that would be quite the difference and sounds like maybe, hopefully a problem that you'll continue to have,

Jasmine 25:17

So far it's looking like that for this year too, so, yeah.

Meredith 25:21

and I mean, you are in a unique position where you get to work hands-on with an endangered species. A lot of people are probably pretty jealous of that. Do you have a favorite memory either in the field or with the captive breeding program working with the northern spotted owls?

Jasmine 25:42

I think my favorite thing that happens is like, it's every year when we're artificially incubating the eggs and we candle them and see the heartbeat for the first time, for the first egg of the year. Like that is the, I, I still get like goosebumps and I'm

Meredith 25:57

I.

Jasmine 25:57

excited and it's just the first time you're thinking like, cluster of cells has a heartbeat and that heartbeat is gonna become an owl, which can then have more owls. And it's just like, it's just like the most exciting thing to see. It's something that I. I wish every everybody in conservation could see that because it's, it's just so special. And that's lucky for me. I get to see that every year. So I'm very grateful for that and that's something that I still look forward to after like, yeah, like 13 years with the program. I still love that part.

Meredith 26:29

That must be like a pretty wild thing because you know most people who are familiar with eggs, they're from the grocery store, you know, there's not a lot of life in them, but you're literally like, oh my gosh, there's a future endangered species and maybe a future non endangered species. Fingers crossed in there.

Jasmine 26:46

yeah, yeah. It's very cool. And I, and I, I personally don't look at eggs the same way anymore. They have a different meaning to me than than maybe the typical grocery shopper does.

Meredith 26:56

Mm-hmm. And do you notice, like these sound like they're, they're pretty long lived species. Do they have different personalities? The ones that stay in captivity? Do you get to like know them? Do you name them like.

Jasmine 27:13

Yeah, they all have names. The ones that are residents, we name them. So it's always a fun and, a bit of a battle sometimes when it comes to naming them, of, of everyone agreeing. But we name them based on their egg letters. So each year, the first egg is egg eighth, that's laid. The second egg is egg, B, C, et cetera. And then, so those chicks become Chick A, chick B, chick C, and then we name the individual after that letter. So, like Chick Jay from last year, so she's Juniper. We have like, Chickie is Cosmo, so we name them like, kind of like to honor their egg letter. Which is always like fun. Like it's fun to name the owls. Like it's, it's it's cool. And then they definitely have personalities. We with watch them with remote cameras so we can monitor them 24 7. And you're definitely watching. It's just like, okay, like. They have tells too. So we have this one owl and it's like they're gonna, he's gonna copulate with his mate and then as soon as they're done calculating, he's gonna go sit on this branch. And like, they just have these habits and they, they have, some of them are really like great parents and some of them are not so great parents and, and trying to manipulate the situation and the husbandry to like, give them all the opportunity to like. Play out those natural behaviors, even if some of them are a bit more resistant to like the captive side of things. Like we're just figuring out like what this owl needs to have like a fulfilled life in this setting. So yeah, it's always fun and the owls always have some silly thing that they've done. And we had an owl last week and we were checking on them like every morning we'd check on the owls and Dante had hunted a salamander, which spotted owls. Do not eat amphibians or reptiles like they're, or even really birds, they're very mammal specific. So Dante had hunted this salamander and decided not for me, and he like left it on his food platform for us to find the next morning. So it's just like funny things like that. Like they just have this intrinsic ability and, and want to hunt. And he was like, but not that, I don't wanna eat that.

Meredith 29:16

It's slimy. Not for me.

Jasmine 29:18

yeah. No, of course.

Meredith 29:20

I think it's like such a privilege that you get to have such an intimate view into this species life, and I think that's so cool. But I'd like to switch gears and ask you some rapid fire questions if you're game.

Jasmine 29:36

Yeah, let's do it.

Meredith 29:38

So what do you think is the most underrated or overlooked species thing about this species?

Jasmine 29:45

I think their camouflage is incredible, so they. Are so hard to find in like a big tall cedar tree. And they have just developed and evolved this, this feather pattern that makes it so they're hard to see, you know, old growth cedar and, and it's just really neat to see those that camouflage at play here.

Meredith 30:06

Yeah, I don't think maybe people necessarily think of like owls and camouflage, but they really should.'cause they're like the dap. In the park like they, maybe it's'cause when you see them, they seem so obvious, but then you're probably not seeing them most of the time.

Jasmine 30:22

When they wanna be seen, they'll be seen. But when they wanna be hidden, they'll hide. And, and I think too, like going back to the Bard Owl and like the not evolving with this forest, it's like you see a Bard owl in like a, a cedar and it's like, eh, you can see it pretty obviously. And then like back east you see a bard owl in like. and Aspen or whatever, and it's like they blend in with those deciduous trees much better.

Meredith 30:46

And what do you think is the biggest myth about the Northern Spotted Owl?

Jasmine 30:53

Well, I would say in general with owls is that they're. Particularly smart. I love them, but I would not call them wise old owls. I would not say they're any more intelligent than like your average bird. They're good at what they do, but in terms of like intelligence and high IQ to get the, wise owl kind of like in the pop culture, like I think that's a bit misguided.

Meredith 31:19

I, I would agree with you. I did some a stint with wildlife rehabilitation and very lucky, a bunch of owls came in and I'm like, you just seem more judgy than wise.

Jasmine 31:29

yeah, yeah. I mean, like, they're not like a crow or a raven who's gonna be like right? So they're good at what they do, but yeah, maybe not the wisest bird.

Meredith 31:42

And so that's the myth about them. Do they have any hidden talents that you think people don't know about?

Jasmine 31:50

I mean the spot all, I don't know if this is a hidden talent, but I think like there, there are particular, specialized needs and niche and everything about them needing old growth, I think is like, yeah, that's a, a skill and talent I guess like to be so closely evolved and adapted to live in that type of forest is pretty cool.

Meredith 32:11

Yeah, they have to be. They were, yeah, they were the apex predators for so long.

Jasmine 32:15

Yeah.

Meredith 32:16

And if the Spotted Owl were to give a TED talk to humans, what do you think the title is saying?

Jasmine 32:24

Hmm. Like Ban the Bard Owl or something like yeah, they definitely would want to, talk about how Bard outs are, are causing issues, and I think habitat loss too would be on, on the agenda for them to talk about too.

Meredith 32:37

Yeah, and probably especially the Bardo thing, I don't think many people are really familiar with that issue. And it's probably really hard too,'cause bar owls are also kind of charismatic.

Jasmine 32:50

They are, and Bardos like definitely have their place. Like I'm not anti bardal. I, I grew up on the East coast too, and I seeing Bardos there is, and, and it's incredible. Like they're, they're meant to be there and they're just not to be here right now. And we're not gonna get rid of Bardos anytime soon. Like they're not, out calling Bart owls and lately, like removing them to the scale that they're never gonna see a BART owl in your backyard again. Like they're, they're gonna be around. We just don't want them around. Where the spot owls can thrive.

Meredith 33:20

Yeah, and until you know, the spotted owls can reestablish themselves,

Jasmine 33:27

Yeah, and we've seen examples in, in the states of like Bard owls being removed, and then a pair of spot owls moves in and like once there's a established pair of spot owls, they, they can fend off like a floating or dispersing solo Bard owl. But again, we just have to give them that chance to even have an empty territory to move into.

Meredith 33:46

And what do you think has been the most surprising thing you've learned from working with the species?

Jasmine 33:53

How challenging it is, I think how they keep you guessing every year. It's, it's never easy. And and I think also like looking at the people that I've worked with over the past, like over a decade, like the people are so invested in this species that work with it and dedicate their lives to it and are very passionate about it. So. They just draw you in spot owls, like once you're in, like you're in for a long time, like people just don't see spot owls and, and leave after like a couple months.

Meredith 34:24

Do you think that that is their superpower being able to draw people in, or what do you think their superpower would be if they had one?

Jasmine 34:33

Yeah, I guess like their charisma is like, they're just so charismatic and yeah, they just. Just like in the presence and like hearing a spot out call is just like incredible. Like there's nothing like it. And to get some, to get people to care about you as a species just by like having a call or being present, I think is pretty special.

Meredith 34:55

Yeah, definitely, definitely very special. And what you do is, you know, not necessarily your typical nine to five that many people know about. What's like the funniest or most unexpected reaction you've gotten when you tell people what you do for work? I.

Jasmine 35:10

Over the years I've kind of like played around with this a little bit. When people ask me and without fail, regardless of what I say they say, they ask what? Like I have to repeat it. So I'll go from, I've kind of started to maybe saying I work in conservation biology, and that usually opens up like, what kind of owl do you work? Or what kind of bird or whatever you, and then I say, or I say, I breed. Baby owls and they're like, what? Like it's always a what question in response. And people always have an owl story to tell whenever I tell them that. I work with owls too.

Meredith 35:47

I mean, that must be kind of nice getting a collection of OWL stories'cause I'm sure they're pretty funny.

Jasmine 35:52

Yeah, they are. There are a lot of barred owls stories.

Meredith 35:54

Yeah.

Jasmine 35:55

One day, one day, my hope and is that I will have somebody say. I was camping and I saw a spot owl and it for like legitimately to be a spot owl, that was like, that's my dream. Like one day to just even like go out for a hike in like a protective forest and like hear a spot owl just like on a day off I think would just be Like that's what we're working towards.

Meredith 36:16

Mm-hmm.

Jasmine 36:17

everyone deserves a chance to hear or see a spot owl.

Meredith 36:21

And are they fully nocturnal? Like would you hear them at all during the day or like, it's a mostly nighttime or desk.

Jasmine 36:30

You would hear them during the day, especially during breeding season. So they'll call rarely, but it's not unheard of. But mostly dawn and dusk would be their most active time. And then at night you'll hear them as well.

Meredith 36:43

I think that's actually a big myth about owls is that like you're only gonna hear them at like midnight and it's like, well, a lot of them actually like those dusky times or

Jasmine 36:53

Well I think too, like owls,

Meredith 36:55

I.

Jasmine 36:55

owls are like a sit and wait predator. So if they're sitting there like they don't really sleep, they're just kind of like resting. And if you're sitting there and this like beautiful snack of a flying squirrel or like a rat goes by, you're not just gonna be like, well I'm sleeping, I'm not gonna go for it. So they will hunt during the day also. So maybe that's a myth too. That they are only active at night'cause they're pretty opportunistic during the day if they need to be.

Meredith 37:22

Do they? Is their hearing as good as like it's made out to be in nature Documentaries.

Jasmine 37:27

Yeah. Yeah, it's

Meredith 37:28

Okay.

Jasmine 37:30

Their, their eyesight is not, people like see these big eyes and think their eyesight's pretty incredible too, which it is, but they're more reliant on their ears. So spot arrows do have asymmetrical ears, so they have like one higher up than the other, and they're different sizes. So that's pretty cool. And you can actually see that like just by like. Moving their facial disc, like they're not they're internal structures, but you can see them from, like, skull is like, you can see it pretty easily. Which is cool.

Meredith 37:59

And that helps them like triangulate the sound, right? Having that like minuscule difference between it reaching their ears.

Jasmine 38:05

Yeah, exactly. So they can pinpoint exactly like where something is in, like the brush or the snow or whatever it is.

Meredith 38:12

And my next question was gonna be like, is there a feature that makes you go, nature is so weird and amazing, but maybe that's it. But is there another feature that like northern spotted owls like have that are just like, oh God, evolution. How did you do this?

Jasmine 38:26

I think watching, like, I don't know what the rating on this podcast is gonna be, but watching Copulation is like incredible to see how they do it. And we watch them on the cameras and, and they have a ika, so the klaw ikas like at kind of like underneath their tail. And if you think about like. male has to jump on top of the female to Copulate, and it's just like, how does that work? If her, her ika is like underneath her body and like, but we can see like how it works and it's just like incredible. Her tail like flips all the way up and like they're able to, to do the cleco kiss and it's like very, very neat to see. Also something that I look forward to every year is seeing, seeing that population happen.

Meredith 39:08

The kiss, I've heard that phrase before, and it's just, it brings some imagery.

Jasmine 39:14

It does. It does. It's I remember hearing at university for the first time. It was just like, who would've thought I'd be saying that almost on a daily basis when I was an adult.

Meredith 39:25

Well, actually that's a, a great lead into like my last question for you. But was there an aha moment for you when you knew you wanted to work with either northern spotted owls or just saving species?

Jasmine 39:37

I. Was probably like

Meredith 39:39

I.

Jasmine 39:40

years old when I was like, I wanna raise baby animals to release into the wild. Like, this has just been like a lifelong dream for like, as long as I can re remember. And even as a kid growing up, my parents were not remotely surprised when I told them what I wanted to do with my, my life. So it's just been a. Like very focused goal my entire life to get me to where I am today. And I've never deviated from that, that childhood dream.

Meredith 40:08

That is wild because I mean, how many kids even knew about like releasing animals? So that's very cool and clearly you were meant to be doing this. So Jasmine, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. I loved learning about the Northern Spotted Owl.

Jasmine 40:25

Yeah. Thanks for all the great questions. It was great to talk to you.

Meredith 40:30

And that's a wrap on this episode with the Northern Spotted Owl and Jasmine McCullough. A huge thank you to Jasmine for sharing her passionate knowledge. I hope we transported you to the West coast and you felt immersed in an old growth forest. I think my favorite fun fact about the Northern Spotted Owl, this episode was actually about how much space these animals need 30 kilometers squared of old growth forest is huge, and to top it off how even though these creatures can fly cut blocks and even bodies of water can act as barriers for them and they can't reach new or suitable habitat. It really showcases how we have to be careful about our human assumptions when we're trying to conserve a species. And I think Jasmine did a great job leaving out jargon this episode. But I did want to quickly talk about the ika. If you don't wanna hear about some detailed anatomy, this is your chance to pause and join us again next week. Otherwise, stick around. So the claw aika is basically the universal exit for many vertebrate species, including many birds, reptiles, and even some invertebrates as well. It is basically the common opening or cavity for not only the digestive and urinary tract, but also the reproductive tract. Like I said, universal exit evolution is so weird and cool that way. And on that note, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. It helps rarefied reach even more people who care about protecting our planet's rare species. And as always, you can follow us on Instagram at rarefied pod and sign up for our newsletter, on our website for updates behind the scenes content and sneak peeks. Until next time, get out there and explore the wild, because every species has a story and every one of us can make a difference. I'm your host Meredith Meeker. Thank you for listening and happy trails