Caribou: Deep Snow, Deep Impact

 In the final episode of Rarefied's first season, host Meredith Meeker delves into the world of caribou, focusing on their significance, unique characteristics, and the challenges they face. Meredith interviews Eddie Petryshen, a conservation specialist from Wild Sight, who works tirelessly to protect the deep snow caribou in British Columbia. They discuss the threats of habitat loss, climate change, and industrial development, as well as ongoing conservation efforts, including penning initiatives and habitat protection. The episode emphasizes the interconnectedness of biodiversity and the importance of preserving these majestic creatures and their habitats. Tune in to learn fascinating facts about caribou, their adaptations, and the critical work being done to ensure their survival. 

https://thenarwhal.ca/bc-rainforest-old-growth-detectives/

00:00 Welcome to Rarefied: Season Finale 

00:27 Introducing the Caribou 

00:31 Caribou Facts and Female Antlers 

01:12 Caribou Conservation Efforts with Eddie Partition 

02:19 Understanding Caribou Populations and Habitats 

03:58 Southern Mountain Caribou: Unique Adaptations 

07:20 Threats to Caribou Survival 

11:56 Conservation Actions and Challenges 

31:29 The Human Connection to Caribou 

32:11 Exploring the Mysteries of Inland Rainforests 

35:00 Biodiversity and Conservation Efforts 

36:10 How to Help Protect Magical Places 

39:36 Memorable Field Experiences with Caribou 

42:41 Rapid Fire Questions about Caribou 

53:49 Aha Moments and Career Reflections 

57:18 Conclusion and Season Wrap-Up 

Transcript

Theme Song 0:00

In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy. Let's listen close, let's take a stand, to keep the wild across the land. In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a legacy.

Meredith 0:23

Welcome you found us. Let the adventure begin. This is rarefied the podcast where we learn to love some of our rarest and most imperiled species. I'm your host Meredith Meeker. This week is our final episode of season one, and we had to close it out with a species I've been dying to talk about. This animal is on our Canadian quarter, and I think it captures the notion of the true North strong and free. Okay. Of course that means we are talking about the caribou. A fun fact about caribou is that they are the only deer species where both the male and female grow antlers. Female caribou use their antlers to defend food resources in the winter, which is especially important when they're pregnant. Since I'm 36 weeks pregnant myself, I totally wish I had antlers to defend my snacks. On a more serious note. Globally, the species is considered secure and can be found in Europe as well as North America. Within many of their North American populations, they're considered vulnerable or critically imperiled, meaning their populations are declining and in some cases at risk of disappearing altogether. Our guest this week is working hard to make sure that doesn't happen. Eddie Partition is based in the Kune region of British Columbia and works as a conservation specialist for Wild Site. For the past decade, he has focused his efforts on protecting biodiversity, old growth ecosystems, and recovering BC's, deep snow caribou. His work has resulted in successful protections for old and ancient stands in the BC's, inland temperate rainforest, and other old growth forests across the Columbia and Rocky Mountains eddie's ability to turn research into story has inspired thousands to take action for old growth and endangered species across the province. So let's get into it and give you a reason to care about Caribou. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me to talk about caribou. I have been dying to talk about caribou. I think it's an animal that really should be more, Canadians should be aware of. Like it's on our quarter. It's kind of iconic, but people know the beaver. I don't think people are as familiar with the caribou. Can you tell us what is a caribou?

Eddie 2:50

Caribou, it's an ungulate and I think a lot of people are, more familiar with their cousins in reindeer. It's the same species but almost all reindeer have been domesticated to some degree other than maybe in the, far Siberian tundra. But here in Canada, our caribou are wild. They're part of that Canadian identity and on our quarter and indigenous nations have had a very close relationship with caribou for a long time with. You know, many nations throughout, I live in BC but throughout our country historically and in some cases still relying on caribou for food medicine and warmth. And, you know, there's various different ecotype or or subspecies of caribou. And, and in the most simple terms, there's, there's barren ground caribou that live in the Arctic and tundra regions. And they're known for those extensive long distance migrations. And then there's Perry Caribou in the far, far Canadian arctic. And they're, know, these, these smaller North American caribou are, really adapted to the cold conditions that they have and kind of the quite extreme conditions. And then there's woodland caribou, which are found in, our forested regions across Canada. And, there's a boreal population which span a lot of the boreal forest. And then there's the southern mountain caribou And, and from there. It going down the train, it gets a bit more complicated. You know, there's always lumpers and splitters. But I work on Southern mountain caribou and specifically snow dwelling caribou who, migrate elevational as opposed to across really long distances. And, and they winter in these really cold, snowy places. And in winter they subsist almost entirely on tree lichens that grow in old growth forests. When we talk about. Deep snow caribou. We're talking about caribou exists or historically existed kind of from northern Idaho and, and northern Montana up to central bc and they cover, multiple mountain ranges in the Columbia Mountains. So the, the, the Mones, the Selkirks Caribou Mountains, and then also little chunks of the Rocky Mountains. And you know, they've evolved within that landscape and you know, evolved to avoid predators and predominantly those deep snow creek caribou exist in what we call the inland temper rainforest mostly. And they've evolved their life strategies to live in that place and to find food and avoid predators, et cetera.

Meredith 5:35

I think people are gonna be like, wait, are reindeer real? Like I think that's gonna be one question people have on their mind and like, yeah, they're real. They are also here in North America, we call them caribou. I think that's gonna be really fascinating for people. And we're gonna talk mostly this episode about the Southern mountain. Caribou. Maybe could we dive into what makes them unique and maybe also what differentiates them from say like, you know, the deer and the elk that people might be more familiar with.

Eddie 6:09

Totally.

Meredith 6:10

I.

Eddie 6:11

Yeah, what I think makes them unique is they live in these really quite remote, oftentimes kind of harsh places, right? These, especially this, you know, the southern group of Southern mountain caribou, deep snow dwelling caribou. They, they live in some of the snowiest places in Canada. And they don't go down, down into the low elevations to winter. They go up high and they're subsisting on, on those tree lichens that grow in old growth forest prioria and lector. And, they're in these pretty harsh, snowy environments. Often between 1800 to 2200 meters wintering in these places and kind of using that snow pack as an elevator to access these lichens and that's really what they live on throughout the winter. And, they've kind of carved out that niche to live where not a lot of other things live and thrive. And they're spread out across the landscape in these little groups of, four to seven caribou. And across, you know, individual, individual populations or herds across thousands of square kilometers. And just, you know, that nothing else can make a living off of them. And, historically that ecosystem that they evolved and developed these life strategies within. Historically predominantly old forest, you know, anywhere from 60 to 80% old forest and depending on where you are. And that's changed. That's kind of been flipped on, on its head with with logging and row building and, and all of these, these things that are going on and, and agriculture and, and other things in, in this ecosystem, but logging for this southern group. And, that's kind of flipped their life strategies on their head and caribou, don't really, these caribou don't really a lot of grasses and shrubs. Other ungulates like those shrubs and grasses. You know, they will eat green leafy vegetation in the summer and all that sort of stuff. But, what's changed is kind of that ecosystem level dynamic. And we've gone from that old forest ecosystem to a younger forest ecosystem and made it better for other ungulates that like those shrubs and those grasses in a landscape that historically didn't have those. And, and then know, with those other ungulates, you also get predators and caribou kind of become the bycatch and the way caribou separate themselves spatially can't happen as much because there's roads cutting through that habitat. The habitat gets smaller the more you chalk it up right? And, and fragment it. And that's what's really, really changed with these caribou herds.

Meredith 9:07

Yeah, we're definitely getting into threats and I can't wait to dive more into it. That sounds so morbid, but really understand how this landscape has changed. And it sounds like, I mean, caribou are a fairly large animal. I think that's safe saying, and they're living off of these small lichens, so they must, you know, need quite a bit of habitat to sustain these smaller populations. Like you said, six to seven and really rely on that elevation. Are they thicker, bigger? Just, I know they're harder than some of their other ungulates, but like, how are they adapted to that lifestyle? Because it seems like a harder one when you look at the Whitetailed deer, they're just kinda like browsing everywhere and they don't care.

Eddie 9:55

Yeah.

Meredith 9:55

What are the adaptations that caribou have?

Eddie 9:59

Yeah. I mean, even some of those mule deer and whatever they also like liken at certain times of the year. But, caribou, you know, they've basically, evolved their life strategy to exist where other things haven't. you know, up in the winter, they're, they're up high, subsisting on that lichen springtime, they start to come down in lower elevations. And it, it varies by herd, by how big or pronounced the migrations are. but yeah, the herd I work on most closely, Columbia North, they really come down into these low elevation, cedar hem lock stands, in spring and adjacent to avalanche CHS that are greening up. And then, you know, they go back up to calf in June and they calve up high. Then late fall, early winter, they come back down low as the snow starts to kind of, you start to get a little bit of high elevation snow, they come back down low into those cedar hemlock stands again.. Late fall, early winter diet, and then they go back up high as the snow builds. And so, you know, they're adapted to live in these cold, snowy places and, they've got big hooves that are kind of like snowshoes and allow them to disperse the weight. And so, you know, if you see a moose in these snowy places, they're going deep into that snow whereas a caribou because there's so much dispersion of that weight and, their hooves are huge, they're basically as wide as they are along. They've got these really kind of, you know, if you see a caribou track, it's very crescent shaped and, kind of horse like in, how it's dispersed and so they've kind of evolved to be a specialist species on the landscape and to live places.

Meredith 11:57

I assumed that I was like, oh, they're coming down to lower elevations so they can have, but no, they go back up in ca and it's just this cyclical thing that I think that's fascinating and makes sense that they've kind of got built in snowshoes. I think anybody who's gone walking in deep snow would be like, okay, you must have that if you're gonna be making life in the mountains. And then you've, you're talking about how you work with a specific herd. Could you tell us a little bit more about like what your work looks like? And I'm also assuming that, you know, they've got these really heavy coats to keep them warm. Have you ever gotten to touch a caribou?

Eddie 12:38

I have, I have not gotten to touch a

Meredith 12:41

Okay.

Eddie 12:41

Other than, you know, a caribou hide. But yeah, yeah. So, you know, a lot of our work right now is kind of around the herd that I work on Columbia North. There's still 209 individuals there and, they've had since 2017 a significant growth rate and they've kind of stabilized and grown from 147 individuals. And they're one of the southern herds that, has kind of stabilized and grown. Only about 35% of their habitat is protected right now. Of their core habitat I should say. One of the things that is very paramount for them right now is getting more of that habitat protected there's discussions between the province and indigenous nations around, you know, getting more of that habitat protected. But in the interim, you know, business as usual kind of is happening on that landscape. And, and so a lot of it right now is around highlighting the threats and opportunities in that landscape. And, you know, the places that they exist are some of the most carbon rich. Temperate rainforests anywhere. these, these cedar hemlock forests where you can get cedar trees that grow up to, you know, three or four meters in diameter and can be up to 2000 years in, in age. And, have been growing undisturbed since the end of the last, last ice age and so, really highlighting the opportunities for conservation in that landscape, but also the threats. And so a lot of the field work that we do is around proposed logging in their core habitat and trying to understand the herd and what are the pieces that. Can be lost and what are the pieces that can't be mitigated and that we really need to defend and protect. That's kind of where we're at. We work to put more pressure on the federal government and the provincial government'cause this is a species at risk. And they're listed under schedule one of the Species at Risk Act. And the federal government in particular hasn't been living up to their responsibilities under that Species at Risk Act.

Meredith 14:52

I think this is like the perfect segue to, I know you've already talked a little bit about the threats but to dive in, because you have talked about how specialized this is, this species, are they considered a subspecies or is this the lump or splitter question.

Eddie 15:06

bit of both. Yeah. So I

Meredith 15:08

Okay.

Eddie 15:09

COIC, the scientific advisory body for the Species at Risk Act in Canada recommended that the Southern Group be listed separately from Southern Mountain Caribou or, that deep snow caribou be listed separately. That's a recommendation that goes back to, I think 2014. And, the federal government hasn't acted on that. One of the big challenges with the Federal Species at Risk Act is when the scientific advisory body says something or, or recommends something it doesn't have to be, taken that way, and it's up to cabinet to decide which way to go. And, and often that's a, more of an economic consideration than a scientific one.

Meredith 15:56

And to get them kind of designated separately. Is it because they are ecologically so different than the other populations? Like you said, they don't do those big woodland, arctic subar migrations.

Eddie 16:10

Yeah. always been a question about like genetics and, and if there's distinct genetics in the southern group. And but the big thing is, is they, those tree lichens, those Boreal lichens and they live in these really, really snowy places and, you know, winter up high. And so that's what kind of distinguishes them from, say the, the central group in the peace region of DC where, most of them go, into the low elevation habitat to winter. Some of'em still stay on ridges, but more wind swept ridges and that sort of stuff. And so there's constantly been, a discussion of, are they distinct are they unique? And you know, that Southern group only has about 1,250 individuals left. And you know, they are kind of globally unique in how they use the landscape and what they eat. And so that's always been a conversation at

Meredith 17:09

If there's only 1200 left of them and you've got 209 of them in your population, sounds like you're kind of working on one of I don't want, I don't know if I can say stronghold, but it sounds like this is a population that's really important to protect for the future of the entire species. Sees.

Eddie 17:26

yeah, yeah. And like, you know, there's, there's kind of been this south to north extrication of, of these, these southern herds and, and we've lost, what are we at now? Seven herds in, in the Kuna in Columbia region in the last two decades. And, and so, you know, we impact more of, of their habitat and, you know, we kinda lose those species. And, and so, this Columbia North herd is, is the herd that has, has the best shot of, of those southern herds at, at long-term And, and they're still connected to, Wells Gray. There's population wells gray, south to the north, and the, in the upper atoms, there's the groundhog, caribou and, and so there's still that, that connectivity. And there's still over, you know, the really important thresholds is when you get below a hundred or 50 caribou you can have, you know, these kind of major events or you get a few wolves or cougars that move into a herd and they can have a significant impact in a really short period of time. And so, yeah, for those caribou, it's really important to yeah, if we want caribou in southern bc that's kind of where the ball is going and Columbia North and over to Wells Gray. And hopefully we can keep them there.

Meredith 18:54

Is there genetic exchange between those three groups, or are they fairly isolated between them?

Eddie 19:01

Increasingly, you know, that groundhog in Columbia North population or herds or whatever you want to call them there's been a lot of movement back and forth and, and individuals moving back and forth. And so, increasingly they're thinking, oh, maybe it's, maybe it's not too distinct herds, maybe it's know, or, or maybe it's just that healthy interchange and, and flow and, and so, yeah, there's, there's been a significant amount of migration and, and movement between the two. And that's really healthy and good. And I mean, you know, it's, it's kind of, again, it's, it's that like lumps and slits thing, right? And, historically, caribou were once one of the, the dominant ungulates in, in our mountain systems, and particularly in the Columbia Mountains. And, you know, there wouldn't have been these small isolated populations. There would've been populations with, you know, a high degree of connectivity all throughout. And that's kind of what supported by the historical stories from both, you know, indigenous nations who, who relied on, on caribou and you know, places like Wells Gray. There's place names that relate to that, places history in terms of like. Lake and over you know, basically fights between nations over caribou hunting grounds and that's how significant they were. And yeah, there, there is those, those stories from nations around how, how culturally important and how much they relied on these caribou. And, you know, also stories from early European explorers, like David Thompson who came into the region who were guided by indigenous guides. And that's what a lot of the, there, there was a high reliance even on, miners when they came into the region subsisting on caribou.

Meredith 21:08

I would assume and may be wrongfully, so that getting the populations back to a level that could support harvest, especially for indigenous communities, would be of a pretty high priority.

Eddie 21:23

I think so. And I think that's one of the goals of some of the work that's been done in the piece where it's the central group and the West Moberly and the Soto nations have back one herd from, I think it's 38 individuals maybe five or seven years ago to, I think they're now over 200 individuals. Through penning, through a whole suite of actions and including really strong habitat protections in the piece. And so, you know, they, they're one day soon they may be at a point where that that herd could sustain cultural harvest. And, I think that's an important thing for connection. And you see, species like a buffalo or bison and Banff National Park where some of the nations and Parks Canada have started a cultural ceremony and hunt around harvesting some of those animals because that's a, you know, important piece of, of that connection and, and that, you know, historical uh, But yeah, in, in terms of southern bc, I think caribou are a long way from, from in a, in a position where they could sustain harvest. And and, you know, I, a lot of the nations that are doing on this issue suggest that's a future generation And, and, and hopefully there's, there's caribou that we've done things right where there, there's an abundance of, of caribou and, and, uh, yeah.

Meredith 22:57

so you mentioned that logging and logging roads that bring in predators are. Two main threats. Are there any others that are pretty major climate change maybe.

Eddie 23:09

Yeah, we don't really know what climate change could do to caribou and it's certainly a major threat. And you know, a lot of the declines that we've seen are largely a result of habitat loss. And maybe there's a little bit of a variable of climate change in there somewhere that we don't fully understand. But right now, it's mainly attributed to habitat loss and habitat fragmentation. And then there's, you know, there's other are you know, they're complex species because they really do require us to, to kind of change the way we think of land and change the way and what we do so there's kind of those other factors that can be significant disturbances to populations and individuals like, heli skiing because they're in these deep snowy there, there can be an impact from heli skiing and, and even just like sort of noise and that close flying over caribou range can, can have a significant impact. And there's a recent study from Ryan Gill and Rob Roya that quantifies that potential impact. And so, you know, we've been putting pressure on, some of the heli ski operators and Heli Cat Canada to try to share flight data with the province around where these operators are going. And just because these tenures are so big and they can't quite unravel how much or if there is a significant, impact. And you know, the study that I mentioned was done during the, there was kind of a break in heli skiing during the COVID anthro pause as some people have called it when there wasn't heli skiing happening because a lot of their clients are from Europe and et cetera. and so, you know, during that time caribou herds started to reoccupy. Parts of their home range and started to use more of their range. so that could be one of the impacts where there's certain areas that they avoid there might be disturbance. and then, you know, snowmobiling as well. And you know, things like ski touring and things that could leave kind of packed trails into caribou habitat where historically those caribou were subsisting at 1800 meters and there's no real way for a wolf to get into that habitat in late winter. And trails, if you take your dog on a walking trail or on a snowmobile trail or if you go for a run, you could run on that right on a pack snowmobile trail. And so, you know, that kind of changes both the movement where we've cut those roads into that higher elevation habitat, and you've got this nice linear corridor where you can move quickly as a wolf or as a cougar or as a human. And it also provides that access for vehicles and for people into that highly valued habitat. And, all of those things can be kind of additive, additive pressures along with the habitat loss and habitat change. And so, you know, it's a complicated picture and yeah. And then, you add on to it that fire is becoming more common in some of these ecosystems, both because of the impact of, you know, those, those changing temperatures and drought and, a less resilient landscape as well from the imprint of, logging and changing the, the kind of dynamics within this ecosystem.

Meredith 26:54

I would not have thought probably wrongly so that recreation would've had such a impact on the species because of how remote they are and how they're going up into these elevations and I'm sure they evolved when it was a getaway and they could avoid their predators and you know, they're dealing with conditions but not also predation. And now they're dealing with multiple pressures. And I mean, we see this with pretty much every species at risk. It's not one thing, it's kind of the,

Eddie 27:24

You,

Meredith 27:25

Death by many cuts type thing.

Eddie 27:27

Yeah, totally. It's all of those things cumulatively and know, the overarching issues that habitat loss and fragmentation, but all of these pressures are cumulative and additive

Meredith 27:39

and I know you also talked about how, a big part of your work is advocating for better habitat protections, stronger protections. What other actions are being taken to prevent the extinction or further declines of caribou?

Eddie 27:58

Yeah, so I mean, I think most folks will be familiar with, BC has implemented a wolf call to deal with in the interim deal with, know, this is a system that's been flipped on its head and these caribou. Now there's, no way. They're gonna be self-sustaining because of how much of their habitat is disturbed and how much we've changed the predator prey dynamics within these systems. And so, there's that action that is extremely controversial and it's kind of a short term bandaid solution that we're relying on too much in bc no question. And relying on too much in the absence of meaningful habitat protection, particularly in places like Columbia North where, the vast majority of their habitat is, is unprotected. Then, there's also penning initiatives. And, that involves capturing with a helicopter, the pregnant females and sometimes yearlings as well. 1-year-old caribou because they can have a low survival rate in the wild. And that's being done in right now, two places in the province, in, that peace region in the Linza herd by the West Mobley and the Soto. And they've had really, good results with that. Their pen is at high elevation where the caribou would have, historically or would've had their calves and, they've got it really I think dialed in those nations are having really good success with that penny initiative and the host of other things that they're doing. And then in, in kind of the area of the Ks, there's one small herd in the central Selkirks that's left. There's about 30 individuals, less than 30 individuals, and, they're panning as well there and capturing the females with helicopters and putting them in the pen. And then they have then it's hopefully I. You know, increasing the survival rate of those calves. And, and you know, they've had the majority of their calves in the last few years were male, which doesn't have as big of an increase in the population size. And, you know, starting with that lower populations harder, right? And so it's kind of that hopefully this will increase the size of that herd. But you know, once you get below that 50 individuals or a hundred individuals, you're really in kind of dire straits. And, so, hopefully that will enable those, that herd to continue to exist. But it is somewhat isolated in the fact that there's no other population around it. And so the long-term viability is gonna be challenging. Then know, in some areas there's an increase of hunter tags for moose to kinda offset some of that habitat related, you know, we're making the landscape very good for those things that like young forests and moose are one of those things particularly in these wetter ecosystems where historically there wouldn't be many or at least a lower density of moose. And because, deep snow packs hard to survive. And colder temperatures there's not a lot of food to eat for these young forest loving, Ungulates, other ungulates and, and so, the, yeah, in, in Revelstoke there's, a win-win where there's more moose tags being given out hunters to, to, to kind of deal with, with those, those populations.

Meredith 31:33

Lots of actions being taken. Sounds like a mix of, of hopeful ones that we're excited, like looking forward to seeing how they pan out. Especially you know, that more that larger herd with the penning. But you know, really great to see that people aren't giving up on some of these smaller herds either.'cause that can be a challenge and. I guess, why should people care that we're putting in all this effort to keep caribou around?

Eddie 32:02

Yeah. I think the caribou story is a human story in many ways. And,, I think a lot of nations subsisted on caribou historically. You know, that thing on our quarter that people kinda go, oh, what's that? You know, that they're, they're an incredible species and you know, they're also emblematic of larger issues, right? And, and in, in this inland temperate rainforest ecosystem, deep snow dwelling caribou are the canary in the coal mine. The more industrial disturbance we have on the landscape, the less of a chance these caribou have. It's also amazing. That very few people know of. It's a rainforest that's 500 to 700 kilometers from the sea scientists still can't explain how all of these species that typically only characterize coats still temperate rainforests there. And that's a, that's a mystery that, science hasn't really fully unraveled and is still unraveling. And, you know, there's various species of new to science plants and lichen that have been found in this ecosystem. These are some of the most carbon dense temperate rainforests anywhere. and. Yeah, these, some of these forests that caribou occupy also have just these magical old growth forests that, make you feel like you're in that type of Lord of the Rings place. And it's just really cool that there's still ecosystems and places where you can still uncover the mystery and magic in those places. I think of, places like the upper atoms and I was in there with a lichen just from the University of Alberta named Toby Sle. And, There's, there's a lichen there, Liberia, that's only ever been found once in the inland rainforest. It's quite common in the best of the best stands of the coastal temperate rainforest that characterize the west coast of British Columbia. In this ecosystem, it's a mystery how it got there and why it's there. But anyhow, we're in the Adams and in the exact same stand where, that lichen is we're setting up camp for the night, and all of a sudden we see Vox Swifts flying out of these ancient cedar trees. And, you know, those swifts complete this amazing migration from the Amazon to breed in those ancient cedars the next day we're in the floodplain looking at this bog galore. Right? You know, and that Adams River is one of the most productive salmon rivers in North America for sockeye salmon, right? Anyhow, back in the bog, there's all these different species of beside one of the there's fresh caribou tracks. And the next day we documented it another really rare, like in this really characteristic beautiful that, that gets these really long, beautiful strands that are quite stretchy and, grow off of tree branches in the wettest of the wet forest and need constant humidity and, hanging on this beautiful, two meter cedar tree. And behind that tree there's this beautiful hummingbird nest. And, and so I think, you know. those biodiversity values don't exist in isolation. Often where you find one really high value thing, you find those other values and that's the case in the inland temperate rainforest. You get amazing biodiversity and amazing specialist species that exist there.

Meredith 35:48

Old growth forest, I mean, for all the reasons you said so important to protect them. And I mean, right now in Ontario are endangered, to be stacked is under threat. And you know, one of the points I made is if we. Give up our right to protect these species. It's not just about, you know, this fish that most people don't know about or have never seen in their life. It's a tool to protect our freshwater ecosystems. So, you know, caribou are such an iconic species, like you said, you know, true Canadian icon mascot. And if we can't protect their ecosystem, you know, it kind of makes me lose hope for the other ones that are, are fighting to hold on. So for people who hear this and they want to protect these magical places and these magical species, how can people listening help?

Eddie 36:50

Yeah. You know, I would say first and foremost, I think of the things that folks can do is if there's an issue that they care about, you know, get involved and whether that's like a local wetland or you know, a local stream try to develop a connection with that place. I think that's the first, and most important thing is really being to the place that you're trying to do something on. And then, supporting organizations that you believe in their mission and you believe in the work that they do. I think that's really critical and you know, in this age of information, it's really hard as a, smaller, non-governmental organization to break through. And so you know, when there's a new story about old growth forests sharing that information is really important. And having conversations about it too, right? And then also, you know, sharing when there is a wind. And just recently, you know, we, we had a bit of a win in Columbia North BC timber sales that, you know, is responsible for auctioning. About a fifth of the province's cut they deferred new development in core caribou habitat for Columbia North and this herd that we're talking about. And, that just happened recently and the media story broke. And so I think, you know, when there is those sort of wins, sharing that information but also, you know, a lot of these issues are, hugely political and talking to your MP and writing letters and petitions that sort of stuff can feel like it's not making a difference. It certainly helps to drive that public pressure in the right direction. And it can feel like that's not moving the needle at times. But, when a politician gets a thousand emails they will take notice. And, that will ultimately, typically end up on their desk. And so I think, you know, continuing that conversation and continuing to build pressure and momentum is huge because it's not just, you know, A linear trajectory that's smooth. It's years of pressure and work and dedication and all of those things. And so, that's what makes substantive change. And it can feel disheartening at times to do that work and to, you know, be somebody who really cares about those issues. But, ultimately the best cure for depression is action, right? To quote Yvonne Ard. And, that's what, I think we, we have to fight for these places, right?

Meredith 39:35

And I think your point too about sharing those success stories, so important to keeping. That hope and that will to continuing to write those emails alive. But also people might read those and be like, oh, there's a nugget of what I can apply.

Eddie 39:53

Totally.

Meredith 39:53

Right? Or a blueprint for how to get more successes. So many reasons to share those good news stories, not just the bad ones. Do you have a favorite memory from being in the field with caribou?

Eddie 40:10

I always say, oh, I, share a bit of microbiome in my, in my gut from a caribou I was hiking and I just bush whacked from in, in the Seymour River and in the west side at Columbia North Range. And, and this caribou herds range. It was a really hot summer day and I had just ran outta water I spent eight hours bush whacking through like really some of the toughest devil's club in the lower elevations, which is, you know, that spiky, thorny plant and, and just, it's amazing where these caribou live, right? And the, the places they navigate and the trails that they know and all of those things, but. So just got up to high elevation took my kinda last sip of water outta my water bottle and, and then 20 minutes later I'm coming up and I'm, I'm really thirsty. And so I see the spring, or what I thought was a spring, this little, you know, seep of a, of a stream and, and I go there and looks great. I take a giant chug, a liter or two of water here. Just, just very dehydrated. And then I follow this spring that wasn't turned out, was not a spring. Follow it up slope. And, and I get to this little bench and I climb over this little rock buttress thing and, and it's this beautiful evergreen meadow with this little pond or meadow. And and there's this female caribou. in that pond just getting a drink and the first thing it does it looks at me poop in the, the water that I just drank. You know? And it was, it gave me this look that it was just like, oh, yeah, well that's not the first time I've done that and that spring.

Meredith 42:00

Eddie, we need to get you a life straw.

Eddie 42:03

Hey, you know, no beaver fever and that it's, it was quite funny.'cause you know, these caribou, they don't typically tend to like run away from you right away. They kind of inquisitively look at you then they might, you know, they're kind of, oh, what are you, what are you doing here? then they, you know, kind of run 50 meters and then they look back and then they might run again and, you know, they don't have that flight response that other ungulates typically have. And and so I, continued on and, you know, ran into that caribou another time, just a little bit higher up. And I just ended up sleeping'cause it was a beautiful night, although there was a bunch of mosquitoes, but there was, there was some wind. All that I was just thinking that this caribou was gonna step on me, you know?

Meredith 42:57

That's a wild story for many reasons, but I'm glad you didn't get beaver fever, so,

Eddie 43:03

Yeah.

Meredith 43:04

animal on a different coin. But thank you for, for sharing that memory. Are you ready to answer some rapid fire? We'll do this real quick.

Eddie 43:13

sure.

Meredith 43:14

All right. What do you think is the most underrated or overlooked thing about caribou?

Eddie 43:20

Probably how cute their snouts are and, they got, you know, the, the little bit of fur to keep out the cold on, their snout and it's pretty adorable.

Meredith 43:29

And what do you think is the biggest myth about caribou?

Eddie 43:33

I hear this from some folks that they think they're not intelligent or, stupid because when they, see them, they often just look at you and they don't have that kind of flight instinct, that other angulars have, or even bear in ground. Caribou have a little bit more. And that's'cause they've evolved to live in a place where, for the most part, they avoid predators or, predators can't really make a subsistence living on them. And they're in. Those small groups spread out over vast distances and in these older forests where there's not a lot of other food for other ungulates. And there are these animals and herds that range hundreds of, or thousands of square kilometers and who walk the same trails that their ancestors did thousands of years ago. And yeah, so, it's not that they're, you know, they just are navigating that change in terms of the landscape changes that are, are there,

Meredith 44:36

And Okay. I have, I don't know about a, a myth, but I guess something that I've heard multiple times. Is that Santa Claus's reindeer must be female because males don't have antlers in December. And so all of his reindeer must be female. Can you weigh in?

Eddie 44:59

Maybe so Santa Claus's, Randy Reindeer are all

Meredith 45:04

So The male would, would've lost their antlers by then,

Eddie 45:11

Yeah. But they, they grow pretty quick.

Meredith 45:14

They?

Eddie 45:16

and, they, they're losing them a little later than that, so I, I dunno. I think it's a myth.

Meredith 45:21

Okay. What do you think is a hidden talent that the caribou have that most people don't know about?

Eddie 45:29

Their hooves are,

Meredith 45:30

I.

Eddie 45:30

super amazing, you know, snowshoes in the winter, dispersing that weight very effectively. Also, amazing swimmers that people are super surprised by. And yeah, those, those hoves are, pretty cool and they're great for, for pawing for food when there's that low elevation snow and, and they're waiting to go back up high and, and yeah. People are always shocked by the fact that they're good swimmers.

Meredith 46:00

Yeah, I don't think that's something that I would've pegged them for, though I do know moose can swim fairly decently too, so maybe it's just something that we don't see very often, so we don't really think about,

Eddie 46:13

Yeah, we, we

Meredith 46:14

I.

Eddie 46:14

when there was still a couple individuals left in the, in the south kind of near Nelson there was one someone captured a video of, of this caribou swimming across the lake, it just, we, we they sent it to us and, and we put it on our wild site social media and it went like viral. And I don't think we've ever had a video go that viral and people were just so fascinated by this, this caribou just, just swimming. So well, and it was, it was quite hilarious. You know, there was. when they tried to do a caribou translocation in the, in the south, near near Kimberly. And, and they ended up using Northern Mountain caribou that were more evolved to, to go to the low elevations in winter. And, and they thought, oh, maybe this could work. And those caribou kind of ended up just bee lining it into the low elevations in, in winter. And you know, it was, it was, it was a really sad event that they each, they, they all kind of eventually got picked off one by one. But some of the places that these caribou went, these, these northern Mount caribou were amazing. And, and the one ended up swimming across Kune Lake like four times. And, and so yeah, they're good swimmers.

Meredith 47:38

And actually another random question, how old do caribou live for

Eddie 47:43

Like 10 to

Meredith 47:43

in the wild?

Eddie 47:44

15 years,

Meredith 47:45

Yeah. And something else we talked really briefly on but didn't actually talk too much about, do they have multiple calves a year or is it usually like one female, one calf, slower reproduction.

Eddie 47:58

slow reproduction, and that's part of the challenge. And and, and then the survival rate of those calves is, is quite low currently in the wild. And so that's why some of those, those panning initiatives have, have popped up. And, and so yeah, one, one female once they're above the age of, I think it's two or so they can, they can kind of, you know, once they're three, they can, they can start having, or they do start having calves if, if they're and, and it's, it's kind of funny'cause I mean, One, one male, you know, can, can find all of these females, say if there's only one male left in the population, they will find those, those females and and try to reproduce. But yeah, they're super low reproduction. And and, and the, the survival rate of, of calves can be quite, quite low at, at times as well, depending on the kind of the habitat situation.

Meredith 49:03

That makes, that makes sense. Especially for, you know, the pretty harsh climates and environments they're living in. And then all the other reasons we talked about why they're threatened,

Eddie 49:13

Yeah, yeah,

Meredith 49:14

doesn't exactly make seem like a warm and fuzzy childhood and Yeah. And if caribou were to give humans a TED talk,

Eddie 49:24

A Ted

Meredith 49:24

what do you think they'd wanna say?

Eddie 49:27

Oh, this question. Think it would be something like, give, give me a, a legitimate shot at, at doing what my ancestors have done for millennia. And,

Meredith 49:36

Hmm.

Eddie 49:37

You know, to Totally, that's a bit of anthropomorphizing, but I like the question. Are, and, and, you know, I think caribou are a challenging species because they require us to really look at and examine what we're doing to the land. And know, I, I think nations, like, like say, say the Slaton Nation, like the Southern most band of the, the nation. You know, there's a long history of of people taking care of the land and and, you know, it took care of them and return and, and and so caribou historically were, were plentiful in, in those areas where, where people relied on caribou. And you know, there's, there's those stories from. Elders, this flat nation about how people needed to wait four hours for herds to pass through certain areas during, during those, those elevational or seasonal migrations and, you know, but yeah, they, they really require us to, to look at holistically the landscape and, and you know, I think that helps us reexamine our relationship with, with nature and, and the land.

Meredith 50:46

And something I think we really need to do. But I also hope that I, and I, and I get the sense that people are more open to that now as well, or more and more people are getting open to reexamining our relationship. So

Eddie 51:03

Yeah.

Meredith 51:04

that's hopeful too.

Eddie 51:05

Yeah, totally.

Meredith 51:06

And what has been the funniest or most unexpected reaction you've gotten from people when you tell them what you do for work?

Eddie 51:14

One of the most surprising reactions I've ever encountered was this guy I had, he was, he was kind of a backyard mechanic and I was telling him I work on caribou, then he proceeded to tell me. This story, and this is a bit out there how he almost shot this in the Southern for cells and thought it was a moose. So I'd say that one was the most surprising. You know, I, I get all sorts of reactions and, and and you know, for people being absolutely ecstatic, ecstatic to, to, you know, oh, I, maybe I I shouldn't have brought that one up. So, always, always interesting and, and you know, I think people generally they really care about, about caribou and about this ecosystem. The values within it. And, and you know, they, they understand that. And, and, and, you know, some of the most surprising, things that I, I've got, you know, in terms of reactions, you know, was, was from people working, say in, in like the logging industry. And, you know, being very supportive of the, the work and, and of you know, even, even sometimes when it, it, it could impact their livelihood and, and because, you know, they know the land. They know what what's happening out there. And, and I remember you know, a, a luggage truck driver telling me about how you know, he was all in this big load of, of cedar on, on the ferry south of Revelstoke and, and to, to cusp. And I. And he said, oh not many of those big pumpkins left anymore. Hard to find these big pumpkins. And you know, we just proceeded to talk about how, you know, it's kind of the, the state of we're kind of at that place where, where we've gotta decide the values that we want to see move, moving forward. And, and the logging industry is changing dramatically. And, you know, we're kind of at that place that, you know, caught in Newfoundland, where was at in the, in the 1980s or 1970s, when, when there was warnings that you know, there was only a, a few percentages left of this really valuable, incredible resource. And, and you know, we kind of, we ignored those warnings for the most part. And, and hopefully we don't do that in terms of, of our old forests in British Columbia. And, and hopefully we, we move forward with a vision that can sustain things like old forests and caribou.

Meredith 53:49

Yeah, I think that's a really important message. And I would also assume that a lot of people who are interested in, in forestry are coming at it maybe from a, a slightly different angle now too. And they're, they're the people who are out on the landscape and are, and are seeing these changes firsthand, where probably a lot of people in the cities aren't even seeing these changes.

Eddie 54:11

yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Meredith 54:12

And and before I let you go, just one last question. Did you have an aha moment when you knew you wanted to? Work on caribou or dedicate your life to conservation.

Eddie 54:25

Long, short story. Yes. I I was, I don't know, what was I, 19 or 20 And I, I came back for the summer and, and I, I really wanted to do like, I wanted to be a human rights lawyer and, and, and do more stuff for folks and, and people. And and I came back. I, I was living in Vancouver at the time and gonna university and, came back in, into the kunis and, and me and my brother went for this kind of late season. Little wander went for a little ice climb. And so it was, it was May and so there was still a lot of, a lot of snow in, in the mountains. And we kind of scrambled up this, this little snowy field area. And then, it's a, a boulder field. And, and we went and did our little climbing thing and, and then we were coming back and the snow had softened up. And so I punched through the snow and, and usually you punch through the snow, happens. But I looked down and, and I, I punched through the snow and hit a rock in a very sharp rock with my shin. And I see blood squirting out of my leg and I can see bone and there's a hole in my leg. and and so, you know, we're up on this mountain. It's two or three o'clock in the, in the afternoon and, and we've got like a 25, 30 degree slope to go down to get. To the truck, you know, a thousand meters below kind of thing. And I couldn't walk at all and I was losing blood pretty significantly. And, and so, we ended up calling Search and Rescue and we had, luckily we had cell reception and, and ended up spending the night and, and and getting heli Evaced in the morning. And I, I had lost like, a decent amount of blood you know, it was, I don't know, negative 10 overnight or something like that. It was, it was cold. And and in the morning, dehydrated, lost a lot of blood. At this point I think I have a, a fractured leg'cause that's what the, the medic said. and, and so I, I got long lined, you know, I'm dangling from this helicopter attached to somebody else over the Southern Rockies, it was kind of, this amazing. But I was, you know, in a, in a weird state, of course. I, I was like, wow, I need to do something for this. When I was getting along lined and it was just the most beautiful morning and you know, seeing these kinda wild mountains and, and the place I grew up with and, you know, didn't end up at, at that point in my life, I, I was keen of, you know, getting elsewhere and, and living elsewhere. And, and and that kind of changed my, my trajectory and my, my passion, I would say.

Meredith 57:24

It taught you a lot of respect perhaps for this wild place that you know you took for granted before. Wow. That is maybe the wildest aha moment that we've had on this show. But a great way to end it. Eddie, thank you so much for your time and chatting all things Caribou with me.

Eddie 57:44

Awesome. Thanks Meredith, and thanks for your passion.

Meredith 57:46

And that's a wrap on this episode with Caribou and Eddie Patricia. A huge thank you to Eddie for sharing his passion and knowledge. I hope you enjoyed learning about Deep Snow caribou as much as I did. I think there was actually a tie for my favorite fun fact. This episode, the first one is that not only do their feet act like snow shoes, but they make great flippers. It's way easier for me to picture caribou prancing over the snow than making long distance swims. my other fun fact is that caribou don't startle like other deer species. And it's not because they're dumb, but it's because they evolved in such extreme conditions. They didn't have the same predator concerns. I hope you took away some amazing fun facts to share and that we can help spread the love for these amazing and vulnerable animals. And even though it is my last official episode of season one, don't forget to subscribe so you get notified when Season two drops. I already have some amazing guests and creatures lined up, and if you follow us on Instagram at Rarefied Pod, there will be lots of hints, bonus content, and recaps to satisfy your curiosity between seasons. If you want even more content, sign up for our newsletter on our website. Until next time, get out there and explore the wild, because every species has a story and every one of us can make a difference. I'm your host Meredith Meeker. Thank you for listening and happy trails.