Exploring Herbology with Katie

What if you've already been dabbling in herbology and didn't even realise it? That cup of peppermint tea, the jar of honey for a sore throat, even the supplements lining your bathroom shelf — there's a whole world of wisdom behind why those things actually work, and most of us have absolutely no idea. 

This week Sarah is joined by Katie, a herbal medicine student who takes us well beyond Harry Potter potions and into something genuinely fascinating, and occasionally life-changing. Katie's honesty about still being a student, still learning, and still figuring it out herself is part of what makes this conversation so lovely — no pretence, just real curiosity and real results. 

In this episode you'll hear about: 

• Why your herbal tea probably isn't as potent as you think and the simple trick to fix it 
• Katie's deeply personal story of eczema that pharmaceutical creams and immunosuppressants couldn't clear, resolved through herbal medicine 
• Why echinacea, the herb everyone reaches for when they've got a cold, might not actually help you depending on your own constitution 
• The beautiful, almost magical process of making tinctures — including one herb that goes in yellow and comes out bright red 
• The fascinating crossover between herbal medicine, Chinese medicine, and the idea of your body's essence 
• Why mushrooms are having a real moment right now, and what's actually behind that beyond the latest wellness trend 
• The lovely, accessible way to get a herbal consultation without breaking the bank 

If you've ever wondered whether there's more to herbal remedies than clever marketing, this episode might just change how you see your spice rack — and your garden. 

Katie mentioned the College of Naturopathic Medicine student clinics, which run across the UK and offer reduced-rate consultations with herbal students supervised by qualified practitioners - https://www.naturopathy-uk.com/resources/student-clinics/ 

Curious about EFT tapping? If you've been feeling stressed, overwhelmed, or just not quite yourself lately, it could be just the thing. Host Sarah Gorev offers EFT and energy sessions via Zoom, plus virtual EFT tapping card decks if you'd like to explore at your own pace - find everything at tapintoyou.co.uk. Come and say hello on Instagram too @sarahgorev

This podcast is here to inform and inspire curiosity, not to tell you what to do. Everything discussed reflects the personal experiences of our guests, and Sarah doesn't personally endorse any particular practice or approach. You're always in the driving seat — it's entirely your choice whether to explore further. Where guests offer the chance to try things for yourself, you'll find links below. And as always, nothing here is suggested as a substitute for personalised advice from your own healthcare professionals.

Thanks for listening.

All rights in this recording and our Vocal Identity remain exclusively ours under UK, US, and international intellectual property law. This recording may not be used to train, fine-tune, or inform any AI voice synthesis system, nor may our voices be cloned, replicated, or used in any form without our express written consent.  

Transcript

Exploring Herbology with Katie

[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:05] Sarah: What if I told you you're probably already dabbling in herbology and didn't even realise it? That cup of peppermint tea, the jar of honey for a sore throat, even the supplements lining your bathroom shelf, there's a whole world of wisdom behind why those things actually work,

[00:00:23] And most of us have absolutely no idea.

[00:00:28] Welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness.

[00:00:32] I'm Sarah, and this week I'm joined by Katie,

[00:00:35] A herbal medicine student who's about to take us well beyond Harry Potter potions and into something genuinely fascinating and occasionally life-changing. I have to say herbology is one of those topics I think people quietly dismiss before they've really looked into it.

[00:00:55] Katie completely turned that around for me. We talk about why your herbal tea probably isn't as potent as you think, and the simple trick to fix that.

[00:01:06] Why echinacea, the herb everyone reaches for when they've got a cold, might not actually help you depending on your own constitution. The beautiful, magical process of making tinctures, And why mushrooms are having a real moment right now, and what's actually behind that beyond the latest wellness trend.

[00:01:28] Katie's own honesty about still being a student, still learning, still figuring it out herself, is part of what makes this conversation so lovely. There's no pretense here, just genuine curiosity and real results. If you've ever wondered whether there's more to herbal remedies than marketing, this episode might just change how you see the humble herb.

[00:01:52] Let's get into it

[00:01:57] Welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness. This week I have Katie, who's joining us to talk about herbology. So welcome, Katie. 

[00:02:07] Katie: Hi. 

[00:02:09] Sarah: It's lovely to have you with us. I find this topic really interesting because I think it's probably an area where people think they know more than they do, or they've rejected it because they don't know anything about it.

[00:02:27] So I'm absolutely thrilled that you were able to come on and sort of dispel some of these myths and just explain to us what exactly herbology is and what sort of impact it's had on your life. So if you wouldn't mind starting really with what is herbology? 

[00:02:47] Katie: Well, some people might call it herbal medicine but I quite like herbology.

[00:02:50] It makes me think of Harry Potter and lots of magical stuff. 

[00:02:53] Sarah: Yeah, I did notice that actually. I Googled herbology and one of the first results was Harry Potter. 

[00:03:00] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:03:00] Sarah: I was like, "Okay." 

[00:03:02] Katie: Words are interchangeable. 

[00:03:03] Sarah: It sort of eased itself into sort of popular entertainment and things, hasn't it? Yeah. But I wonder if that also fed into there being some myths about what it, what it involves and- 

[00:03:14] Katie: Yeah ... yeah. And I think so many people are used to science now being the backing of everything, that when it comes to kind of the older traditions of people using their intuition or just having stuff passed down the generation, that people have forgotten that actually the, the stuff works, it's not just made up.

[00:03:31] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. The more it's in fictional things, I guess it, it moves away from the fact that it has got a scientific backing and many pharmaceuticals have a background with herbs and things. Yeah. No, great.

[00:03:43] So what does it, what does it include, and how did you come to, to realise it was gonna be something you wanted to find out more about? 

[00:03:50] Katie: Yeah. So, um, I think because I kind of grew up a fairly rural place and my dad had, Dad's family had been farmers and you always went foraging for stuff and just enjoyed kind of plants as food as well as- Yeah

[00:04:05] Not a vegan or anything, but I have always enjoyed just going for a little forage to see what's out there. And sharing that with people as well has been quite important. But I found that I had kind of not been as in tune with nature as I'd have wanted to be, and when I left engineering I was like, "Okay, what else could I do?"

[00:04:25] And went through a lot of different ideas, things like aromatherapy and other kind of natural- healing modalities like that.

[00:04:34] So I'm still a student at the moment, so not fully qualified yet, but I'm learning so much about plants, and I just find that- There's so much that people don't know, but they might also be a bit scared of as well. 

[00:04:51] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:04:51] Katie: So there'll be things that people are aware of using, I don't know, like nettle as a nutritive tea is really nourishing for your body and good for cleansing blood and things like that, that people are probably aware of things like herbal teas and just pick up something that's a nice mixture.

[00:05:08] I quite like that Twinings does things like focus or energy or calm or detoxification, and you don't need to know what's in it. You just need to know that that's kind of what it'll be doing for you, and that's enough for a lot of people, which is quite nice. It's an easy entryway to it, but there's so much more behind it as well.

[00:05:26] Sarah: The tea thing I think is really interesting, 'cause as you say, they all have their, their focus, and we can, we can sort of buy into that easily d- can't we? Because we're like, "Yes, tea's not scary. Tea, you know, tea makes sense, and, and it feels easy." How... Based on the study that you've done, how much impact can those teas have, or is it a marketing 

[00:05:52] ploy?

[00:05:52] Katie: Uh, well, no. Um, one thing that you find with teabags is they tend to only have, like, a teaspoon of that combination of plants in it, and a therapeutic dose in herbal medicine is two teaspoons and having it multiple times a day. 

[00:06:08] Sarah: Right. 

[00:06:08] Katie: So there is a kind of slight discrepancy there where you probably aren't getting quite as hard-hitting as you might if you had a um, full herbal remedy there, but it's still doing something.

[00:06:20] But it would still have an 

[00:06:21] Sarah: impact. 

[00:06:21] Katie: Yeah. It will still, it will 

[00:06:23] Sarah: still help in those 

[00:06:24] Katie: ways. Yeah. Okay. And it's also making sure you infuse it for long enough, and I quite- Oh ... often just leave the teabag in if I've got an actual teabag from someone, because it takes between kind of 10 and 15 minutes to get a proper infusion of something.

[00:06:37] Sarah: Oh, 

[00:06:38] Katie: okay. So, yeah. Well, that's 

[00:06:39] Sarah: useful to know. 

[00:06:40] Katie: Yeah. A little dunk. And, and I'm, I know a lot of people who drink regular kind of builder's English breakfast tea, whatever you want to call it. They'll be like, "Oh, well, herbal teas or whatever fruit teas, they just don't have much taste." And it's because they just do the in and out of a dunk rather than leaving it to infuse for any length of time.

[00:07:00] Sarah: Because I guess ultimately, I mean, tea itself is, it's a plant, isn't it? And we, and we get certain benefits from- drinking from that plant. So that's a really easy, accessible sort of way in to realising that you- there's an element of herbology or, herbal medicine or, or, um, whatever you term it, is already happening in our daily life.

[00:07:26] Yeah. But as you touched on before, we can be quite scared of it, whether we're sort of not sure of certain combinations. You hear about things like St. John's Wort not working well with people's medication and that kind of thing. And I wonder if there's, there's part of that that sort of stops people from giving it a go.

[00:07:45] Katie: Yeah. And that's what's so interesting for me at the moment is having come from an engineering background where you always had, like, research or something to back up, some sort of science to back up everything you're doing, and then starting with the herbal stuff, I was a bit like, "Oh, I probably need a qualification in this to be able to help people."

[00:08:05] But I know so many people who have just done it intuitively. They sit- 

[00:08:09] Sarah: Right 

[00:08:09] Katie: ... with the plants, they try them, whether eating, making teas, putting them into tinctures and things, and they just see what it does for them and how it makes them feel or... And I just think that's amazing, people who are that intuitive.

[00:08:23] But there are so many people who need to know the science. Yeah. And actually, I need a little bit of that myself. But understanding the whole plant is really tricky as well, because take things like dandelion, their leaves, their roots, um, and just the amount of things that can do for your body, you can't think, well you can't just say, "Take this for that."

[00:08:48] It's always got to be, like, a combination of, like, looking at the whole person, what's going on for them, what they feel, whether they're a constitution of a hot person or a cold person, if they're quite dry or if they're quite wet, and kind of balancing up when you're giving remedies to manage all of that, that you might have spoken to somebody for an hour about their health and found out that they have a problem with sleep, something with digestion, something with their nervous system, and then actually you can find one herb that does all of those things.

[00:09:17] But actually adding in a few other bits might just boost them a bit more. Yeah. You just think, wow, the kind of, the simplicity but also the complexity of it, where it's quite unlikely if you're not taking any medication that you would damage yourself with taking herbs. 

[00:09:38] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:09:38] Katie: The ones that are widely available.

[00:09:41] But it's also listening to your body, and I think that's one of the biggest takeaways that I've had- Since coming into all of my learnings that I've done, is just what does my body need? And a lot of the time, although people think, "Oh, yeah, let's go and have some herbs or supplements," actually just looking at what you're eating or how you're living your life, and that's also part of my course, 'cause we do, um, as part of herbal medicine, we have to do, like, naturopathic studies, which covers- 

[00:10:08] Sarah: Oh, okay

[00:10:09] Katie: all the other stuff that's not plants. So- Yes ... we do kind of Bach flower remedies, which are the ones that are the kind of essences from plants, but they work on, like, emotional states. And we've done a little bit of Ayurvedic stuff and Chinese medicine. We've e- we've even done iridology, which is where you look at someone's iris,

[00:10:28] So just things like that- 

[00:10:29] Sarah: Ah, okay 

[00:10:29] Katie: ... are just so interesting, so useful for people to be able to manage their own health.

[00:10:34] Sarah: Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. So before you did the course, were you w- experimenting or trying things out with, with herbs 

[00:10:43] before? 

[00:10:44] Katie: Yeah. So I had really bad problems with eczema for a long time. Um, and I didn't, nobody could ever really tell me what was wrong with myself. I just kept getting creams or at one stage, I was even on, um, immunosuppressant drugs because they were like- Wow

[00:10:59] "Let's just try and reset your whole system." And unfortunately, it's a thing that could affect your liver, so I had to have my liver monitored regularly, and it just never fully went away. And then when I started my herbal stuff, I actually went to the herbal student clinic just 'cause I was nosy, and they gave me tinctures and teas, and my eczema's gone.

[00:11:20] Sarah: Amazing. 

[00:11:21] Katie: And it was all about managing heat in my system and also making sure I wasn't congested in my organs of elimination. So my liver, partly because of the drugs I'd been on and also just living life not knowing about detoxification, um- I just got, went through a couple of protocols for detoxification, and yeah, my, my skin was great.

[00:11:46] Sarah: Amazing. And the, the impact that it can have. 

[00:11:49] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:11:50] Sarah: And as you said before, it was sort of this simplicity and yet complexity. Like some- something in theory that, that could be considered so simple, and yet, you know, we think of the simplicity actually being taking some sort of pharmaceutical drug, but there's always going to be then a...

[00:12:11] Well, not always, but there's often, like, a side effect to that. And as you say, then it, it can almost lead to the side effect being worse than the original. 

[00:12:19] Katie: Yeah. And that- that's what, um, that's what's so difficult when people have been on various medications, is that you don't then know whether the one that you've taken most recently is to s- fix something that's naturally occurred in you, or if it's something that has been affected by something that you've taken previously.

[00:12:36] And that's why when we do our kind of herbal medicine consultations, we always do, like, a whole person check. So we might ask, "You've got this one problem that you're bothered with, but actually, have you got anything with your respiratory system? What have you taken in the past? What medical history have you got?

[00:12:51] Have you had any operations?" Um, and just look at kind of general wellbeing as well as what they eat, and just see, well, what could be affecting you as an, a whole being. 

[00:13:03] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:03] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:13:04] Sarah: And am I right in thinking that you wouldn't necessarily be advising people to stop medication, but it would be- 

[00:13:11] Katie: Oh, no, no

[00:13:11] Sarah: sort of complementary to- 

[00:13:13] Katie: Yeah 

[00:13:14] Sarah: ... medication that they're on already, or it would be if, I guess if they regularly were finding they had some sort of issue, maybe there would be some herbs that could stop that issue coming on. I mean- Yeah ... at the moment, obviously hay fever is rife, or you mentioned eczema that can flare up, or- 

[00:13:35] Katie: Yeah. So a lot of the stuff we do is preventative. 

[00:13:38] We've got these principles that are all about kind of looking at the whole person and preventing rather than curing things.

[00:13:45] And the, my favourite one is actually, um, the naturopath is a teacher, 'cause that's what I feel like anybody that knows this stuff should be sharing it. It's- Mm ... very much a kind of- if people come and see you and learn how to manage their own health, they shouldn't need to come back.

[00:14:01] Sarah: Right. 

[00:14:01] Katie: So actually, although there's people who are on medication for life, if they can find a way to manage something for themselves, happy for people to check in, but actually once they know how to do that, then yeah, just check in if needed. Not, "Oh, I need to see you in a month's time because of..." 

[00:14:20] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:14:20] Katie: That's, that's what I quite like about it is that there should be things out there that you can do for yourself. And okay, wellness and all the other things that you've done as well are so useful for managing different parts of your health. But then- The main thing that... Well, Hippocrates is the person who started all of the kind of health and wellbeing stuff where food should be your medicine, so that's a place to start, and then add on all the other bits.

[00:14:47] And actually, plants are a type of food a lot of the time, so why not just- Yeah ... add in a sprinkle of something that's gonna be something different for you. 

[00:14:56] Sarah: I love that. Because I guess, again, it sort of fits into these. So you've got your teas, you've got supplements, um, and then you can sort of incorporate certain things into your diet.

[00:15:08] Katie: Yeah. So, well, the other, the main thing that we give to people, because it's the most fastest acting, is a tincture. Right. Which is where you get... when I've done them in the past, I've made them with a herbalist, where you, um, get fresh plants and you put them in a mixture of alcohol and water, and then just leave them to macerate, just k- kind of a, what would be like an infusion, almost, for maybe a month.

[00:15:30] And quite often- Oh, wow ... people do that kind of with astrology as well. Like, they take days of the week or times of the month when it's a good time to get the energy out of plants, and obviously seasonally as well, and they put it into this jar. And they just, they look beautiful. Like, some of them, the colours you get.

[00:15:45] Like, St. John's Wort is a fantastic one, because although the flowers are yellow and that, the tincture comes out red. It's, like, bright red. Ooh. It's quite fantastic. Um, and also all the different, um, constituents of the plants can do different things in different quantities of alcohol. And then when you've bottled all of those, you can then decide, once you've spoken to somebody, you can combine various ones together to make a formula for people, and they just take a spoon of it maybe few times a day.

[00:16:12] And that can be, like, almost like a medicine. 

[00:16:14] Sarah: Oh, my gosh. This makes me think again back to sort of the whole Harry Potter potion type- 

[00:16:19] Katie: Yeah ... element That's exactly how I feel. I've been, for the past year, I've been, um, volunteering, um, at a herbalist's, um, what she calls Herbal Helpers, uh- 

[00:16:29] Sarah: Okay ... 

[00:16:29] Katie: couple of times a year.

[00:16:30] So she does, like, March, July, and October, so there's different activities to do during that time. But we've made so many tinctures, and then had to bottle them, like, press them, which is the fun part, with all the, like... You see the remaining flowers and roots and all sorts in the what's actually a wine press.

[00:16:46] Um, and then you get to bottle them, and the smell in the room is just like, oh, I feel healthier just being in there. It's just lovely. 

[00:16:52] Sarah: Oh, my gosh. I absolutely love that. I'm g- I, like, I feel like I wanna go and start picking things from the garden now. Yeah, you probably could. Yeah. And make my own potions.

[00:17:01] That sounds amazing. 

[00:17:03] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:17:03] Sarah: It also makes me think of those, you know, the Chinese medicine shops with all the big jars on the wall. 

[00:17:08] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:17:08] Sarah: What's the difference, or is there a difference, herbology or herbal medicine versus Chinese medicine, or does it come from the same place? 

[00:17:17] Katie: Um, well, I suppose Chinese medicine's, like, 4,000 years old, and they just have slightly different plants, obviously depending on what's growing locally.

[00:17:26] Mm. But their, um, approach is kind of- To do with the elements as well as- 

[00:17:34] Sarah: Right 

[00:17:34] Katie: ... your constitution, and they also look at the systems of the body and how those kind of interact and how things flow. So there's, it's a very in-depth, um, learning, and we've just skimmed the surface, and I find it so fascinating.

[00:17:50] The thing I really like in Chinese medicine is that they talk about, um, your essence, like- Right

[00:17:56] like, like your soul or who you are as a person, and when someone gets kind of depleted or deficient, um... And you know, they talk about the y- yin and yang, where things need to be in balance, um, and one's, like, hot, and one's cold, one's sharp, and one's dull, and there's all of these, like, opposites that you need to balance.

[00:18:14] Yeah. But the main thing, when your essence is depleted, that comes from your kidneys, and it's called your jing, and there's things- Wow ... that you can boost to bring your vitality up again, and I just... There's things like that that I really like that's not necessarily, oh, your stomach needs some help. It's actually maybe your whole essence as a person.

[00:18:33] So I really like that. 

[00:18:34] Sarah: That's amazing. Mm-hmm. So, so although it's a different discipline, it's sort of coming from- 

[00:18:40] Katie: Yeah ... 

[00:18:40] Sarah: some of the same, um- 

[00:18:42] Katie: Yeah ... 

[00:18:42] Sarah: learnings. The yin and the, the yin and yang But it's more sort of energetic as opposed to physical. Yeah. Is that right? 

[00:18:47] Katie: Well, that's, a lot of what we talk about is actually energetics, um- Okay

[00:18:51] in terms of energetics of plants versus the energetics you see in a person, and then also the actions that are required in your body to help with those energies. So each plant will have different actions that they can produce. So like I t- talked about dandelion leaf being a diuretic, which helps you to wee.

[00:19:10] So that is actually quite a cooling, um, cooling action, which can be useful for people who have a lot of heat in their body, and just things like that that, uh, yeah, you can balance people out really well with plants. 

[00:19:24] Sarah: Yeah. And another thing that's maybe stopped me in the past is when you look into some of these tinctures and things, they often have sort of different claims, and there doesn't seem to be sort of a standardisation across them all.

[00:19:40] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:19:41] Sarah: Is, is that because there's sort of a lack of regulation,

[00:19:44] Katie: yeah, I think that's something to be quite aware of, because like I said about plants, they can have so many actions that they can do, and trying to pin it on one thing. So if it's in a formula with something, it'll be taken for everything in that compound or in the formula will have actions that will help with this thing.

[00:20:06] Sarah: Mm. 

[00:20:06] Katie: Uh, whereas if you were to say, "Here's a tincture of one plant, and I'll be taking it for this." 

[00:20:14] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:20:14] Katie: But actually you'll find it does other things for you that you might not even be aware of. So- Okay ... although some of the scientific research has been done, like, so hawthorn is good for your heart But also it does other things, which- Okay.

[00:20:34] Um, there's things like that where you probably will find that if you went into a shop that sells supplements, that plants will be put in a specific area because they do something. 

[00:20:48] Sarah: Yes. 

[00:20:49] Katie: Well, people will know about echinacea for your immune system, but echinacea does so many other things as well, and also how you take it and what it's gonna do for you is gonna depend on your constitution as well.

[00:21:01] One of the quite interesting things that I am aware of is then with echinacea, it's quite a cold plant, so if you're taking it and you've got a cold, if you're a cold person- Yeah ... unlikely to help you. 

[00:21:13] Sarah: Ah, okay. 

[00:21:15] Katie: Yeah, it's gonna act differently on different people. 

[00:21:18] Sarah: Yeah, I mean, that makes, that obviously makes sense.

[00:21:21] Katie: Um- Yeah. Unless you know that about echinacea being a cold plant, then, and it's on a shelf that says, "Oh, good for your immune system," or, "Helping when you've got a cold." Yeah. 

[00:21:31] Sarah: Then... And then it, and then it could either do nothing or- 

[00:21:34] Katie: Yeah, you'll just not notice ... 

[00:21:35] Sarah: yeah. Well, 

[00:21:36] Katie: nothing- Or it won't help with what you want it

[00:21:37] other than to your bank 

[00:21:38] Sarah: balance, I guess. 

[00:21:40] Katie: Yeah. Yeah, that's the other thing as well, is that when you see things advertised as good for that thing, good for that thing, good for that thing, and you go, "Oh, I'll just go for it." But how much money are you spending on things that might just make your bowel motions expensive?

[00:21:56] Sarah: And, and there is so much, maybe because I'm interested in these things, they like targeting me on, with advertising. But there, there do seem to be so many supplements being pushed out or even on social media if, if someone mentions they're feeling a bit under the weather, then you'll often get, like, lots of people who think they're experts suddenly, suggesting- Well-

[00:22:20] "Oh, well, that's because you need to take this or you need to take that, or you need to take the other." And as you said, they don't really know your history. Mm. Um, so you could end up filling your shelves with supplements that als- all seem to be amazing or, um, things that, you know, people have recommended- Yeah

[00:22:41] that, that don't end up having, a- again, other than your bank balance, they don't really have much impact. 

[00:22:47] Katie: Yeah. Do you know what I was thinking about earlier today? I started doing something recently that is very simple, but you can do it with anything in your life really, and is asking your body does it need it.

[00:22:58] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:22:59] Katie: So if you're advertised, let's say reishi mushrooms, you c- if you stand still and- And then ask, say to your body, "Is my name Katie?" And it'll sway in a certain direction to let you know what your body responds to as yes, and then you can ask it something that would be an automatic no and see how it responds differently.

[00:23:19] Right. So if, say, you said to your s- your body, "Do I currently need reishi mushrooms?" You don't need to know why, and your body will respond. Okay. And it's just like, even when you're eating something, like, should I have some potatoes with my tea? And then it'll respond in what it needs in terms of nutritional benefits.

[00:23:40] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:23:41] Katie: It's a j- That's 

[00:23:41] Sarah: interesting, 

[00:23:42] Katie: isn't it? ... simple thing to do. 

[00:23:43] Sarah: I wonder if it does link into this fact that it's sort of ancient knowledge, ancient wisdom, and it sort of ends up being- Yeah ... passed on through the genes, that our bodies already know what they- 

[00:23:52] Katie: Yeah, they 

[00:23:53] always know what they need

[00:23:54] Sarah: what they need and what they don't. 

[00:23:56] Are there some that are sort of universal, though, everybody would benefit from X, Y, and Z? 

[00:24:03] Katie: Probably not, mostly because, um, you'll know a little bit about constitutions in terms of Ayurveda from- Mm ... previous shows. Um, and everybody's constitution will be slightly different, and- 

[00:24:15] Sarah: Yeah

[00:24:15] Katie: what they've been through in their lives, there's a different makeup in there as well. Um- 

[00:24:22] Sarah: Yeah 

[00:24:22] Katie: ... it'll change your kind of balance of everything. So at one stage you might really need something that is, I don't know, something demulcent, nice lubricating for your digestive system, or you might need something that is cooling because of heat in your system.

[00:24:38] And you'll find that, as you get older, there will be different things that are more likely to flare up as well. So it really is very specific to where you are in life, what you've done with your body, how you've treated it in the past.

[00:24:53] Your body changes in different ways through that time, so you're gonna need different things at different times. 

[00:25:00] Sarah: Yeah. You mentioned, um, before, mushrooms. Now again, there's certain mushrooms that are sort of heavily pushed in terms of from your mental wellbeing to, to various things that could be going on in your life, and yet there is also that sort of psychedelic thing you can be thinking about.

[00:25:20] Um, mushrooms presumably fit within herbology? I wouldn't- Yeah ... have thought of them as a herb, but I, I guess they are included within that practice. 

[00:25:32] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:25:32] Sarah: So where does that sit in terms of, you know, again, if we go back to pop- popular culture, it can be sort of all this there's microdosing and things included in a lot of things that are on the TV.

[00:25:46] Um, is that a separate part of herbology, or is that included within the whole and, and it sort of depends on what you're looking for? 

[00:25:57] Katie: We haven't been taught an awful lot about mushrooms in my course just yet, but I don't know if that's just 'cause we're second year, and third year we'll maybe go into more.

[00:26:04] But they don't actually come up in the books very often either. But just recently I've noticed that the college has started doing a short course on mushrooms. Okay. And I don't know if that's just because it's become much more accessible and much more publicised. But one thing I've been quite aware of is, 'cause I've always done a little bit of foraging, not huge amounts.

[00:26:28] And I know people who've lived just on foraged foods and for a year, and you just think, wow, how do you manage that- Wow ... with all the nutrition that you need? Um, so I'm very kind of low level forager at the moment. Um, but what I find is that generally foragers and mushroom foragers, they can be quite separate.

[00:26:51] Okay. And actually mushrooms, because of how you identify them, can be tricky. Mm. And it's definitely something that I'm aware of, so if I see fungus anywhere I'm always like, "Oh, do I know what that is? Do I know what that would do, or should I be touching it?" Or things like that, that you need to be very careful when you're foraging for them, and that's what I, why I've never really done that.

[00:27:16] But because so many people are now understanding the medicinal properties of them and how that can be really good in combination with everything else that we use, so there's a lot more of that happening. And what's really interesting is, uh, when our student clinic the other week, um, we were going through somebody's case just as a group and then coming up with a formula for things to give them in a tincture, and in, in my head I suddenly thought, "I think we need some mushrooms in here."

[00:27:45] And I didn't know what for and I didn't know why, and the only one we had available was reishi, and actually we looked at the why it would be useful and actually it worked in the formula. So I was like, oh. Amazing. Okay, something intuitively told me that a mushroom was needed there. Yeah. And I just went with it.

[00:28:00] Sarah: I love that. They have their place 

[00:28:02] Katie: Yeah, they have a place, and I can see why people would be concerned, 'cause there's so much that could be an issue with it. But when you, again, ask yourself whether you need it and how it can help you, then yeah, it's, it, it can be really useful alongside other herbs too.

[00:28:19] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. So it's more than just a fashionable thing, I end up with all these adverts for various gummies and teas and all sorts, but actually- Mm ... there is something behind all of that

[00:28:31] I guess there's such a breadth, isn't there, of mushrooms. Mm. So it depends what you're trying to get

[00:28:36] Katie: Yeah. And again, like, when people talk about, like, lion's mane for kind of focus or something else, like chaga is quite good for giving you sun protection, which- 

[00:28:46] Sarah: Okay ... 

[00:28:46] Katie: but there are so many things in just one mushroom- Yeah

[00:28:50] that just saying one thing for one and one for another, it just doesn't give you the full picture. So knowing, um, kind of the immune support things can give you, or, um, how it can affect your nervous system, or, like, the systems of your body that can be, um, either balanced or enhanced or whatever it might be from any of the mushroom, or any of the plants really, is quite important 

[00:29:11] Sarah: Yeah 

[00:29:13] And does it make a difference the way that they're prepared?

[00:29:16] I guess this is the same for herbs as well, if, if it was sort of steeped- Yeah ... for a month versus- Yeah, yeah ... if you were just to pick it and eat it, it would have- Yeah ... a different effect, would it? 

[00:29:26] Katie: Yeah, of course. Well, we talked about tinctures, so because of the alcohol in there and it going straight to your stomach where a lot of things are absorbed, um, the alcohol helps that get into your system quicker.

[00:29:40] Right. So actually a five mil teaspoon of, um, a tincture gets into your system quicker. But actually, with the alcohol, that can be a little bit irritating for people, or if for any reason that they don't choose to have alcohol, that could be an issue too. But you also get things made from, like sh- almost like syrupy, like glycerins as well.

[00:30:01] Um, so that can be, again, good for some people, but not others. And how that would also preserve the herbs. So tinctures can last 10 years plus, whereas- 

[00:30:11] Sarah: Wow 

[00:30:12] Katie: ... if you pick a plant and dry it to make a tea, probably not gonna get the same power after about a year. Um- Okay ... so things like that. Um, roots, if you use a root to make a tea where you then boil it rather than just infuse it, that might last a little bit longer because of the drying process of that.

[00:30:30] So just knowing the difference between how long something would be potent for. So if y- if you buy vegetables and put it in your fridge, like, you know that the sooner you eat it, the more potent it's gonna be. Yeah. So, like the same with, like, dried herbs versus fresh, um, it makes a difference. And then also people making tinctures from either fresh or dried herbs, the plant still has more of its vital essence and, uh, life force if you do it fresh than from when it's dried, so you get more potency there.

[00:31:00] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Gosh, this sounds like there's so much to learn, really. 

[00:31:04] Katie: Yeah. And- 

[00:31:04] Sarah: With all of this, I can see why it's such a long course that you're doing. 

[00:31:08] Katie: Um- Yeah. And it's also, when you're sharing it with people, trying to just give the stuff that would be of interest to them.

[00:31:15] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I guess exactly as you said, it's sort of feeling into is this relevant to me. 

[00:31:21] Katie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:21] Sarah: Is this something I need to know about now, or I need to take action on now?

[00:31:27] Katie: Yeah. And then- And 

[00:31:27] Sarah: that's 

[00:31:27] Katie: before we even had this conversation, that I thought in terms of the things I've done in wellness, um, there's so many things, and I do bits of them when I feel like it. 

[00:31:38] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:31:39] Katie: And I remember being with my grandmother last year, um, some sort of daytime TV show was on, and one of the discussions was about is health and wellbeing exhausting.

[00:31:51] And I was like- ... it can be. Yeah. If people put pressure on themselves to do everything or to be as healthy as they can in every area of their life, you think, "Yeah, that's gonna take over." Yeah. So actually finding a way to manage all of it where it doesn't feel like it's- An extra load of information bombarding your nervous system that's already, uh, slightly fried from everything that's going on, that- 

[00:32:18] Sarah: Yeah

[00:32:18] Katie: finding something that you can just flow with 

[00:32:24] Sarah: is, um- Yeah, 

[00:32:25] definitely 

[00:32:25] Katie: ... also quite nice. Don't, not putting the pressure on yourself to do everything all the time. 

[00:32:30] Sarah: Yeah. I mean, that's part of why I started this, um, podcast because there was sort of... I felt like there was so many different weird and wonderful things, um, that I was finding out about, and I was like what, what do they all actually mean and, and what do I actually need or would benefit from?

[00:32:50] And, and I'm hoping that people can see it's almost sort of a thing they can dip in and out of, just to understand each of them- Mm ... a bit more, and be able to say, "Well, actually, that's not for me." Yeah. Or, But by hearing from people's personal experiences of what it's given them- 

[00:33:07] Katie: Mm ... 

[00:33:08] Sarah: it might be that they see, "Well, actually, I would've disregarded that, but now I understand it a bit more, and I can relate to the person talking about it and their experiences.

[00:33:20] I'll give it a go." Yeah. But it doesn't have to be something that you're then going to do for the rest of your life. It could be something- Mm ... you dip in and out of. It could be that you s- something that you come back to in 10 years' time, 'cause suddenly then it's, it's more relevant. But- Yeah ... um, yeah, it can feel this real pressure that, oh, well, if I'm not doing everything, then...

[00:33:43] Because again- Mm ... I guess with social media, again, we can feel like, well, everybody's doing this, or everybody's doing that, or people are saying, "Well, you know, why haven't you-" Yeah ... "tried this or..." So. 

[00:33:57] Katie: Yeah, 'cause that's, there's, there are so many things out there that, um... I was doing some coaching a while ago, and they asked us to write, um, list of things that brought you joy or just things that you love doing, no matter when it was in your life.

[00:34:10] It doesn't need to be something you do every day. But looking at how much joy there is in your life and where you're getting that from. Yeah. And one of the people that was there really struggled to write the list, when I was like yes, yes, yes, all these things, all these things."

[00:34:24] And it's like noticing those things and where they come from- 

[00:34:30] Sarah: Yeah ... 

[00:34:30] Katie: and whether they're simple or things you feel you should do or could do, and how- Yeah ... you're looking after yourself that way. Because one of the biggest things at the moment is how people's nervous systems are hijacked, and that- There's lots of herbs that can help with that, but also understanding how, what that does to the rest of your body.

[00:34:53] Yeah. So if your nervous system isn't working properly, if your digestion isn't working properly, therefore you're not absorbing all the nutrients, therefore your whole body and your essence is gonna be affected. So actually, yeah, keeping things simple, if you can, Yeah ... and just listening to what your body needs is definitely one of the key things that I would say to people that's, try to go as inward as you can.

[00:35:21] 'Cause when there was a, there was a time when I was really stressed and I said, "Right, I just don't know where to start or what's going on or what's affecting me," and my nervous system was a mess. And I actually started listening to a weekly astrology YouTube thing, and actually it was quite nice to be like, right, if today I have a few minutes and would like to think about how things might be affected by the astrology today, I'll maybe do that.

[00:35:48] Yeah. But also knowing that there's been solar flares that affects people's nervous systems, and you might not be able to sleep, or how a new moon versus a full moon might affect you personally. I found it very soothing to know that it wasn't just- me or something going on with me, but actually it could be a collective thing as well.

[00:36:08] Yeah. And being able to share that. 

[00:36:10] Sarah: Yeah, I love that. I love that, being able to go within and say, "What, what's speaking to me today?" Yeah. And actually something like astrology, as you say, you can, you can say, well, there might be another reason. Stop t- putting pressure on myself to, to sort myself out, there may be something else is going on that I don't, I can't have any control over, but I can sort of acknowledge that that's- 

[00:36:33] Katie: Mm-hmm

[00:36:33] Sarah: what's happening for me and this is how I would like to respond to that or, or to understand that. 

[00:36:39] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:36:39] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So yeah, I love that. And you mentioned there's, there's all sorts of things that you've been doing over, over time. What would you say, what else would you say had a big impact on your wellness over the last few years?

[00:36:54] Katie: So I definitely think spending time outside is the biggest thing. Mm. Mostly because I lived in a suburban area during COVID, and- Oh ... eventually I came back to Scotland for a trip to see family, and was like, I hadn't seen the horizon in over a year. Wow. And I was like mental, considering I used to volunteer for a saving, sailing charity where you'd be out in the middle of nowhere, right at sea level, and then I'd be out hill walking somewhere.

[00:37:25] Just I get, feel so exhilarated when you get to the top of a hill and there's wind and you can see stuff and there's hardly anybody around. And I definitely think it's, for me, it's time in nature that is the biggest thing. 

[00:37:38] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:37:38] Katie: And it doesn't need to be doing anything in particular, but I know if I haven't been outside enough.

[00:37:44] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, I guess that fits in as well to some extent with mindfulness, of just being aware of every activity you're doing- Mm ... rather than you just following the daily grind, if you like. Yeah.

[00:37:58] Yeah. I love that. So if people want to find out more about herbology or how to incorporate that into their sort of daily, monthly, annually, uh, wellness routines what would you recommend as a way to, to find out more? 

[00:38:18] Katie: Just by yourself, one of the first things to do is just listen to what your body needs.

[00:38:23] Um- Yeah ... how do you feel after you've eaten something? How do you feel when you wake up? When do you get tired during the day? Um, there's so many- 

[00:38:31] Sarah: So just sort of 

[00:38:31] to journal on 

[00:38:32] things like that, to just keep a record.

[00:38:33] Katie: Yeah. Let's say after a meal 

[00:38:36] ... 

[00:38:36] Katie: Do you feel okay? Let's say it's in the evening. Before you go to your bed, do you feel anything different in your digestive system? Or if there's a, a system of your body that you're feeling uncertain about, Yeah ... uh, monitor it. Just pay attention and see if there's things that change or what makes it change, I think is the main thing.

[00:38:57] Like, how long has it been going on for, and what affects it positively or negatively? 'Cause they're- Yeah ... the important one. And just to be able to say, "Right, there's something that doesn't feel right here. Do I need to do anything about it?" Yeah. Or is it just going through something at the moment? Yeah.

[00:39:13] And it could be that it's emotional based, or it could be the, an excess or a deficiency or something. So trying to feel into that for yourself is really important. Um, but another thing that if people are interested in actually speaking to herbalists, there are lots of people out there, um, fully qualified practitioners.

[00:39:34] Um, in Scotland we have a company called Napiers that are based in... well, they started in Edinburgh, been around since the 18-something, um, but there's one in Glasgow as well. Uh, I think Bathgate too. Um, and a lot of people get consultations and herbs from them, and they have got displays of things in their Glasgow shop that look lovely.

[00:39:51] It looks like an old medicine shop, and it's very pretty. Amazing. Um, the Edinburgh one is mostly their products, so creams and things like that, but they have a really good dispensary downstairs, but they're all over the country. You'll get people. Um, I'm studying with the College of Naturopathic Medicine, and their main headquarters are just not far from King's Cross in London.

[00:40:11] Um- Okay ... but my course is based out of Manchester. But each of their locations have student clinics, so at the moment, once a month I go down to Manchester and myself and the students sit with a practitioner and somebody comes in. We take their case history, and they go away for a while. We discuss it, and we make up something that would be useful for their health.

[00:40:32] Um, and if people would like to come to that, there's some in London, Manchester. I think there's homeopathic people and nutrition in Edinburgh, and there's Dublin and Bristol as well, I think, at the moment. And if people want to go onto, uh, any search engine and look for the College of Naturopathic Medicine student clinics, they can apply, um, to say that they're interested, and I think it's maybe £25 to come for a consultation, and you pay for the herbs on top of that.

[00:41:02] So it's really reduced rates compared to what you would get from a fully qualified practitioner. But you have got a practitioner there. It just takes quite a while to do the initial consultation, 'cause we talk to you for an hour about your health. Okay. And then we take a little bit of time to review that and make up your, um, treatment plan from there.

[00:41:18] So it's, uh, takes a while, but it can be really educational, and people see great differences in what's gone on for their health with that. And I, I noticed it coming to the clinics, um, last year. It made a big difference for my eczema and just general health. A- and I'm much more aware of what's- happening now.

[00:41:37] You can apply any time to, to do that. 

[00:41:40] Sarah: Yeah. That sounds amazing. 'Cause as you say, although it can feel like it's some time taken out in order to do it, I guess it's s- something that you can then take forward for the next however many years and, and can have such- 

[00:41:54] Katie: Yeah

[00:41:54] Sarah: a massive impact on your wellbeing. 

[00:41:56] Katie: Yeah.

[00:41:56] And I, I think the difference as well, um- I haven't seen a GP for a very long time, but for, um, the times that I have seen them, I just always seem to see a different person and they don't know much about my history. Whereas with this, you're, we kind of save it on file that if you come and see us, we take a full case history, and then when you come back, we just revisit everything that we did previously- Yeah

[00:42:19] just to see, like, how has that changed? Just what's going on here? What would be the... And we just, we know the person inside and out, so Yeah ... um, it means that, um, you can always just... It's, you're not starting afresh every time you go to see somebody. You, you can build on that relationship if you want to for any length of time until you feel that you've got a, a handle on it yourself, if you can manage that.

[00:42:43] Sarah: Yeah. And as you say, it can be used preventative and it can 

[00:42:47] Katie: be- Yeah ... used 

[00:42:47] Sarah: complementary- Yeah ... as well 

[00:42:49] Katie: as 

[00:42:49] Sarah: it being used to treat something. So- 

[00:42:51] Katie: Yeah, and I know people- Really versatile ... who've been on lots of medications, and they've wanted to reduce them, so they've worked alongside their GP and a herbalist to say, "Well, this can help to sort this out, so that was, that medication was given for a symptom of that thing, so..."

[00:43:07] And then we're trying to look at what the cause of all of it was from your constitution and your kind of innate self as well uh- Fantastic ... trying to do a few things is. 

[00:43:17] Sarah: Well, I can feel a rabbit hole coming on. I, myself am wanting to find out more about all of this stuff, and I'm sure this is not the last time we will have a chat about 

[00:43:26] Katie: this.

[00:43:26] Yeah, if there's ever any time anybody wants to speak to me about herbal medicine, I'm always willing to have the chat. And if I don't know much about it, um, it's always something for me to go and learn up a bit more on as well, which is, is always good. 

[00:43:37] Sarah: Amazing. Well, I'll make sure if people want to have a look in the show notes, I'll make sure there's links to some of the things that you've been talking about, um, including the College of Naturopathic Medicine and, for the clinics- Yeah

[00:43:51] if people are interested in that as well. But thank you so much, Katie. This has been absolutely fascinating. And, um, I definitely feel like I know more than I did. 

[00:44:02] Katie: Oh, wow. 

[00:44:03] Sarah: As well as knowing how I don't know very much about the detail. But as you say you just actually need to know about what's relevant to you.

[00:44:12] Yeah. You don't need to know everything. Um, and it's getting access to that information that is the important thing. So I'm thrilled that you have found it's made such a big difference in your life, and I hope that some of the listeners will find that it does the same for them. So thanks, Katie. 

[00:44:31] Katie: You're very welcome.

[00:44:33] Sarah: Well, I don't know about you, but I'm seriously considering a wine press and a windowsill full of jam jars after that conversation. 

[00:44:46] What struck me most about Katie's approach is how it manages to be both wonderfully simple and properly complex at the same time.

[00:44:56] The advice to just listen to your body. How do you feel after this meal? When do you get tired? What changes things for you? Costs nothing, and we can start today. But underneath that simplicity is a genuinely deep system of knowledge about energetics, constitutions, and how every single part of the plant can do far more than the one thing it gets known for. Katie's eczema story was really powerful. Years of creams and immunosuppressants that never quite got to the root of it, and then a herbal student clinic, purely out of curiosity, changed everything.

[00:45:41] And I loved her line about the naturopath being a teacher, that if you do this work properly, people shouldn't need to keep coming back to you. There's something quietly radical about that in a world that often profits from us staying stuck.

[00:45:58] If you'd like to explore more of this yourself, Katie mentioned the College of Naturopathic Medicine student clinics

[00:46:05] Which run across the UK and offer reduced rate consultations with herbal students, supervised by qualified practitioners. It's a lovely, accessible way in, and links are in the show notes. Until next time, take care of yourselves, and remember, nature's been running its own pharmacy for a very long time. We just forgot to trust it 

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