ADHD In The Family, Featuring Sara Lerner

Sara Lerner is a mom of 2. She’s also an ADHD coach who works in corporate communications, and she spent most of her career as an award-winning radio journalist. Sara also happens to be an ADHD-er herself!

Sara spent 10 years at NPR station KUOW in Seattle, and she filed stories for many national outlets, including NPR, such as her story on bikini baristas or her insightful reporting on the Oso landslide in Washington State. She is passionate about things like press freedom and ethical journalism, and sat for years on the board of the Society of Professional Journalists.

In today’s episode of Scattered and Spectacular, Sara talks with podcast host Andrea Morton about growing up with an ADHD parent, pursuing an education and career, marrying (and then divorcing) an ADHD spouse long before she ever discovered that she, too, has ADHD.

Yet as her children were going through their own diagnoses, Sara realized how much ADHD had always been a part of her own journey. She is now a single parent working hard to support her family and continuing to uncover the myriad ways in which ADHD plays a role in almost every part of their life.

Fueled by the desire to help other couples and individuals affected by ADHD, Sara created Truss Love, a professional practice where she offers ADHD and Relationships coaching.

You can learn more about Sara Lerner and Truss Love by visiting her website:

https://paperbell.me/trusslove

Whether you're a woman newly diagnosed with ADHD in midlife or just wondering if you might have it, you'll find lots of valuable information and relatable stories by visiting Andrea's Instagram account for ADHD women: @scatteredandspectacular

You can also contact her there if you want more information about what it's actually like to work with a certified life coach or ADHD coach!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And often you see how much they are doing. And so somehow they are just managing it all and pulling it together. And it looks like everything is functioning.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

But the difference between ADHD women and ADHD men often is that the women are pulling it all together. But internally they're so exhausted that like they're just running on adrenaline and they're just like barely keeping it together. And maybe they're like crumbling on the inside with anxiety of it all and all of that exhaustion because it is also draining. Whereas men are more visible and they fall apart. I can't, I'm overwhelmed. I'm just going to withdraw, or I'm just going to sit here and I'm not going to do some of the household chores because I'm just collapsing right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Artistic, innovative, problem solver, intuitive, empathetic, curious, spontaneous, hyper-focused, leader, resilient, you. Yes, you may have ADHD, but you're far more than its challenges. Your unique brain is like a nimble sports car, designed for high performance but requiring precise control to manage. It may be challenging to harness at first, but your dynamic, thrilling brain can do incredible things. And now that you're learning to drive it with skill, your horizon has never been brighter. Here at Scattered and Spectacular, we will dive into understanding our ADHD brains together. I am your host, Andrea Morton, a certified life coach with Combined Type ADHD. Together, we'll explore all things ADHD, so you'll finally have that driver's manual you've always needed. And now on with the show. Hey everybody, and welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited to be here with you today. And we're still in the beginnings of this brand new podcast, but we just love all things ADHD. And today I am so excited to introduce you to a very special guest. Sarah Lerner is a mom of two. She's an ADHD coach who also works in corporate communications now, and she spent most of her career as an award-winning radio journalist. And she is an ADHDer herself. Sarah spent 10 years at NPR station KUOW in Seattle, and she filed stories for many national outlets, including NPR, such as her story on bikini baristas or her insightful reporting on the Oso landslide in Washington State. Passionate about things like press freedom and ethical journalism, she sat for years on the board of the Society of Professional Journalists. When describing her work, Sarah likes to say that her superpower is her ability to not only craft compelling content, but to find the right story to tell. She's also traveled extensively and has amazing personal stories to share from those adventures. I am honestly in awe of her life and work, and I cannot wait to learn more here today. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Oh, Andrea, thank you so, so much. It's very fun to talk to you. And I am looking forward to this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Oh, me too. Yeah, I gotta tell the listeners that this is not the first time that Sarah and I have talked. And so you're gonna love this so much you might want to go and check out an additional episode that we did, which is all about her just phenomenal work. And so that would be on the other Andrea Morton podcast, the Infinite Capacity Podcast. But for today, Sarah and I are going to dive into all things ADHD. And uh, we're pretty stoked. We are passionate about this topic.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

So you magnificent creature with your two podcasts. Looks so good. How ADHD of me is that and this is my other project.

unknown 4:12

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Any listener with ADHD will get it. They will get it. Okay, so let's dive right in. Sarah, when did you first learn about ADHD in general and when were you actually diagnosed with it?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

I wish that I could remember when I first learned about ADHD, but I know it was a long, long time ago because I know that um my mom had it, and I and I know that I thought of it in the very which is so funny because I know so much more about it now, but in the very sort of overly simplified version of it, like it's a hyperactive kid, you know, and and just like did not understand the deeper elements of it and and thought I mean I even can even vaguely remember actually I am remembering now like the um in this and this is all in terms of my ex-husband and his ADHD. And I remember thinking, is it really that that much of a thing? Because he thought he had been diagnosed when he was younger, but it was may or may not have been true, or it wasn't necessarily, you know, I something something about that where it was foggy. And um I remember just not thinking it was that big of a deal, but then like um really wanted to get into it when I started thinking, hey, this is impacting our relationship. And as I mentioned, he's my ex-husband. You can imagine that things did not work, you know, we we had some problems, you know. And so I was thinking, like, and there's some executive function issues, and I was thinking, like, well, let me let's get into this. And I had um all I'm I'm a journalist, you mentioned journalism, and I love to like dive in on things and research and get to the bottom of it and like really find out everything I can find out about things. So I did that with ADHD. And um, I was also drawn to like mental health and had thought about becoming a therapist. So I just really got into it and like sought out couples therapists that were experts on ADHD because definitely not all of them are. I think that in the end we had tried four different couples therapists. Like so I learned so much about it then, and through that entire process, through everything with him, couples therapy, through then deciding to become an ADHD coach for the partners of people with ADHD. I the entire time that I went through the coach training thought that I did not have ADHD. The entire time before that, when I was on Clubhouse during the pandemic, which is an audio only app, I was hosting a live interview every week with crowds of you know folks that would come up and we would talk and it was this wonderful community. And through all of that, I still thought that I did not have ADHD. And then I finally got diagnosed a couple years ago. And then I still like it's like day after day, I'm like, girl, how in the world did you think you didn't have ADHD? Hello. And like I tell my friends, I tell my my cohort from the ADHD co-training, and they're like, Yes, Era. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Well, there is so much to unpack in that fantastic answer, and it's so relatable. Uh, just kind of an off-the-wall question. Do you feel like people with ADHD are drawn naturally to other people with ADHD? Yes. I do.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

And they think the whole world, and they think that this is actually coming from experts. There are there are people that have been working in this field for decades who talk about this. Like you think that everyone is like that, but that's because your parents are like that and your siblings are like that. So you're walking around the whole world thinking that everyone's like that, but it's actually just the people around you and the people that you surround yourself with. And I was just like, oh.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

That is that is highly relatable, Sarah. My husband was diagnosed when he was seven, and we have quite an extensive neurodiverse family, and I feel like most of the people that I have met in my life where I was like, oh, it's like an instant soulmate.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah, well, yeah, and then going to the ADHD convention a few months ago, God, that was fun. You know, I mean, the the conference, you know, and just like being there and being around all these people, it's just it it is, there is a thing of like I I mean, and I guess to to be honest, coming from the perspective of a non-ADHD spouse of someone with ADHD, I was suspicious of that because I was like, well, maybe they're all people who interrupt and forget important appointments, and you know, and like maybe there's a certain and and people who have been hurt by people with ADHD, but they don't have ADHD, they might they might come be coming from that perspective. But you know, now that I really have been able to dive into understanding that that is me and that is my world, and understanding the connections that I have with people, I find it such a joyous positive thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yes, absolutely. Okay, so you mentioned that your mom also had ADHD, and I know that she was a therapist. Did she ever suspect or mention, hey Sarah, I think you might have ADHD? What you know, what was it like?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

That's a good question. I don't she might have, she might have uh as an adult, like I mean, she was 72 when she passed away, and that was in 2019. She, by the way, was like oh, and today's her birthday.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

Oh my gosh. Okay, well, first of all, I'm super, super sorry she passed, but happy birthday to your mom.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Happy birthday, mom, Gail Lerner Conahan. Very, very incredible special woman. Yeah. Shout out to you, mom. Happy birthday. She is, she was just a nurturing, like I when I think of her and like what what was yeah, how do you describe her? She's just like so present and authentic and caring and nurturing. I mean she had her drink her, you know, we all have our things too. So but yes, what I want to tell you about that is she did have ADHD, she was diagnosed, she did take meds, and she talked about it, like, oh, all this time I've had ADHD. And I feel so sad that I kind of dismissed it. Uh-huh. But you didn't know. I mean, how could I not know? Like, I feel like I know so much about ADHD now, it's hard for me to even get back there to be like, oh yeah, is that really a thing, Mom? You know what I mean? Like, how could I even it's it's hard to even remember thinking that. And the thing is, is, you know, as I was an older adult, I was like, it was endearing to me, her like forgetting things or, you know, just kind of she she she you don't know, I'll explain. You know, when she packed her bag to go on a trip, she would have like a hip pack that was stuffed to the brim, uh as well as her backpack and her suitcase. But the hip pack would have like every type of first aid thing that you could ever think of, and like, you know, eyeliner that she hadn't used in a year. And like, but she, you know, like I mean, we had to have a rule when she was uh staying at my house when the kids were, you know, toddlers and they would still eat everything that she couldn't have her purse outside of the bedroom where she was staying because just stuff would spill out of it, including like meds.

SPEAKER_05 11:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Yeah, as an adult and also as an oh god, she was an amazing bobby and grandmother with helping me with the kids. She would just come over and just like boom, help clean and take care of the kid and hold the baby. Anyway, she was just incredi incredible. So I was just like, oh, it was endearing, you know, like just so much love. But when I was younger, I was just like, oh my god, like just pulling my hair out, like she's a basket case, she's baddie, she's you know, like that kind of stuff. I think that my brother and I and might have said to ourselves, basket case, you know, and it's it's terrible to say that now. But I mean she really is a l she really was like really all over the place.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

So I mean, many of us with ADHD are, but yeah, I think as our kids get older and have more perspective, the things that an annoyed you know them about us when when they were teenagers become like things that are pretty endearing, you know. At this point, you look at your mom with fresh eyes. Someday my teenagers are gonna look at me with fresh eyes too. I'm counting on it, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yes, they will. Yes, they will, they definitely will. But that's this that's the crazy thing is that she used to annoy me so much, you know. And we know we had other things that were our conflicts and whatever, but we were very, very close. And I just like look at myself and I hear myself, and I'm like, well, I'm her. I just what are you gonna do? Like, here we are, you know. So, you know, yeah. Uh just just it is what it is. You gotta just like be in the moment.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

For sure. Oh my gosh. Okay, so you mentioned privately that your parents got divorced when you were really young. What was it like for you as a young person with an undiagnosed ADHD to have to navigate between two different households? I imagine that's tricky with like executive function and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yeah, so I was not ever a hyperactive kid. That was not me like at all. But my mom told me that when I was very, very young, I had and they got divorced when I was three. Okay. She told me that I had this like lost look on my face for like a while. Yeah. Isn't that sad? Yeah, that's really sad. I know. I just was lost and I felt like I looked like it, you know. But she knows she got me in art therapy when I was eight.

SPEAKER_05 13:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

And I learned how to identify what I was feeling and how to express emotions and you know, all kinds of things. But yeah, I mean, it was a hard time, and I think it was just very hard to go from one house to the other. And you know, when you have a divorce, each of those families, each of those families of three, you know, dad and me and my brother, and mom and me and my brother, are struggling because that's a all of a sudden you're a single parent. Right. So you're a single parent, you know. So we were at with one single parent at one house and then with another single parent, that one single single parent that has to do, you know, and that's just that's how it is. And that's a it's a challenge. So so so you're you're in a challenging time no matter what, because of that.

SPEAKER_04 14:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

But what happened, though the way that it when I look back and think about it now and think about the ADHD, what what it is is that I just thought there were these certain traits that are just well, that's how I am. That's one of my quirks. An example is that my friends would say, Oh, Sarah, yeah, she's she's just book smart. Like, cause I would do like spacey things, and they'd be like, You're s you're book smart, because I would study really hard and get good grades. But then I would be like, I don't know, just ask something that seemed really obvious to everyone else, like, or or maybe I'd I'd ask the question that everyone else was afraid to ask, you know, or but just sort of some sort of like kind of head in the clouds stuff, you know. Maybe, maybe I maybe not the question everyone's afraid to ask. I think that that is more me now. I think I'm like, listen, if I'm wondering this, you're probably wondering this, and I'm really chatty, so let's go. You know.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

Yeah. But one of your best qualities, Sarah. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Thank you. So good. But yeah, yeah, the the that was the thing, is like they'd kind of laugh at me. Like as a teenager, I can imagine the friends kind of laughing at me for not being sharp or not getting something, and just kind of but then meanwhile, I was getting really good grades compared to the rest. And so they were like, Oh, you're book smart. Like you're not, you know, meaning you're not smart otherwise. So it wasn't nice.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Yeah, like Street Smart versus Book Smart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, those hardworking hours that you put in getting those good grades led you to go to college in Madison, Wisconsin. And I'm interested in knowing, like, with the ADHD, which you didn't know about, you know, being in university setting, was that easy for you? Were there challenges? What was the whole academic piece like as you got older?

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Okay, well, getting to Madison was an absolute dream. I mean, I was like, I'm on my own. I'm on my own. I can talk to all the weird freaks that are on the street, but and we didn't call them freaks, like it wasn't the 60s, but you know, like I can just wander around and meet all these different people. I can play hacky sack, you know, between classes. Like, I don't know. I mean, it was great. Like, I loved it. And academically, you know, I would go to the library and I would go in it at Wisconsin, they had the cages, they would call them cages, and you could like shut the door. And it was like it was a little room in the stacks. Okay. I'm picturing it. And you could shut the door, but it was still kind of open. It wasn't like you're in a and and then it was just so quiet. And that is how I would study. And what is so funny now is that I recognized that I was going to party hard and study hard.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

And I was not going to be able to do any extracurriculars. Okay. Because I was going to party hard and study hard. And that is what I did.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

I mean, isn't the partying hard kind of an extracurricular in itself? Well, I mean it that way.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

But I, you know, there were things like ultimate frisbee, or well, I don't know if there was ultimate frisbee. I could be making that up. That's a today thing. But I'm trying to think, but I know there were things like rowing. I was like, oh, that sounds amazing. And I was like, nope, you do not have the bandwidth, my friend. Like, you are going to go see all this music and whatever you do and study, and then the rest of the time is going to be studying. And it was just like, that's my choice. That's what it's going to be.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

I mean, it makes a lot of sense. I think that seems like a pretty logical choice for such a young person. I see some maturity there.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Yeah. Actually, no, I think that's true. Actually, uh, thank you. I will give myself that. I mean, I'm now I'm remembering one of them was the newspaper. The the newspaper. I wanted to be a newspaper photographer, and I was like, I don't, I can't. I don't have to I can't do it.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Yeah. You know? Well, you kind of worked that out later in life, I would say. So yeah. I think the uh the interest came back around. Yeah. Um, what about after college? I know travel became a big part of your life. And I didn't you spend a full year traveling in Latin America between 98 and 2000. I think you visited every country. What were some of the adventures there that stood out for you? And I don't know, how did that shape you? I did.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

I was so lucky. I it was a dream, and I stayed um a year after college in Madison to save up money. I was bartending and delivering subs to very stoned people. I'm sure they were very grateful. They were, yes, they were. That's a good point. They were like, oh, thank you so much. And um, yes, and I was a bartender at like a fancy restaurant. Um so I worked all these jobs and I saved up money and I got to go like a year after I graduated. But and I went, yeah, I went to I mean, over 12 months, I went to every country except for um every country in South America except for um the Guyana's and Suriname. Okay, and so so it was Nicaragua and South, because I started in Nicaragua. Yes. I mean, I'm so glad I did it. The advice that I always give young people now is like, go just goodbye, go buy your ticket, buy a ticket, buy it, go. Because it's so easy to just fall into life and then get a if you especially if you get a really good job, you don't want to just quit the job. It was hard to get.

SPEAKER_05 19:53

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

I'm just like, go travel, live, see the world, because it you don't get those years back, you know. And so I'm so glad I did. And I'm trying to think like what was you know a thing that sort of like drew me to all of that. I mean, obviously it's like the adventure and oh god, I just yeah, I really loved the unknown of like what what are we gonna find in this next city and who am I gonna meet? And there's a whole camaraderie of people who are there doing that, and you bump into each other. There's kind of like a quote unquote circuit. You know, I met this guy in San Jose, Costa Rica, and I was going back to the US for a little bit, and I brought him some I went back and I sent him some stuff to Texas to his family. That's a good one. And then Yeah, yeah, it was just people would do stuff like that all the time, like just you know, travelers connecting. And then I met I I bumped into him in Buenos Aires, like eight months ago.

SPEAKER_03 20:53

Oh, I love that. And he just happened to round the bat and there he was.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Right. And it was like that kind of thing of like, well, of course, because you were running into people like that all the time, because there was this, you know, kind of community, um, if you will, of people traveling. But at the same time, I do have a little bit of I don't know if I'd say regret, but conflict when I think about that, because you know, there's something about coming from a privileged place where it's my fun and adventure to let my dollar go very far and spend two dollars a night in the cheapest hotel that exists in Costa Rica, and that's my adventure. I mean, I am so aware, and then also people treating me nicely because of my blue eyes, you know? Like I am so aware of that privilege and those dynamics, and um I think I was aware at the time, but I I'm glad I did it, you know, uh in part because of what I bring back to the US and the way that I understand the world. Like that that one lesson of like, this is not. The only way that people live, and I just cannot wait for my children to get that lesson. They don't have it yet, but I'm definitely gonna get them outside of where they are and to see that. You know, some of the stuff I did was like nonprofit stuff, you know, so yeah. So there's there's a lot to unpack there. I just feel so, so grateful that I got to do that, and so yeah, yeah, I'm kind of happy with myself that I made that decision back then because like I said, you you know, you just don't get those years back. People are afraid to do something like that because they're like, well, no, I have to get a job or whatever. But it helps you in your job. You're a worldly person, you're a multicultural person, you're a person who understands the way the world works. It's not ever gonna be wasted.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. I don't have any research to back this up, but I feel like people with ADHD are especially well poised to travel because we love stimulation and being interested in new things. And when you are on the road and you're learning a new language and you're in a new city and you're meeting people you would never have met before. And it's just for me personally, I feel the most alive when I'm doing that kind of thing. I just feel like so connected.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah, and you're just putting that all into the ADHD perspective right now, and that's what I mean. Like it kind of blows my mind that I still am discovering all of these little nuggets of my ADHD life because hello, you're so right. That is like dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. Where am I gonna sleep tonight? Dopamine hit. Am I gonna take the train tomorrow? Dopamine. Like unknown, adventure, new friend, you know, exactly scary situation.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

That's pretty epic. I feel very blessed to have an ADHD brain that loves seeing the world and and getting to know it. Thank you. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so by the end of your huge adventure, you had narrowed your career path down to three options. You were thinking social work, photography, and journalism. So, how did you ultimately get into radio and how did that career just kind of like make that perfect match with your ADHD brain?

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Well, I interned, I interned in all three. I was like, this is it's kind of like it's like an apprenticeship. It's cheaper than grad school.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

True.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah, it it is a great way to see if you want to do this for your career, you know. And so I interned in radio and I was on this little show called New Letters on the Air. Hello, folks who know that little show from uh Kansas City, Missouri. And it was fun like editing the interviews and thinking about what goes into the interview. That and they weren't like at the actual radio station, KCUR, but I remember the the time, the first time that they took they took me over to drop off the tape. They like physically dropped off the show. Yeah. And they were like, Oh yeah, let's go over to KCUR, where the station is just a mile away or something less than that. And I walked in the door and I was like, Oh yeah, I'm doing this. I was just like, here we go, let's go. I'm on, I am on it. And I met pretty soon met the program director and he told the story, which I had not realized this at the time, but he told the story that I was like, hi, I hear you need a Saturday announcer. I would really like to apply. And he was like, Okay, well, you know, give me a reel of of your work, like just reading, you know, this and this and that. And I was like, Okay. And I found a booth like in the station right then and came back to him like 20 minutes later, and I was like, here you go. And he was like, I meant like sometime, you know. Yeah, but you got the job. So that was fun, and that was a funny moment because I I didn't even realize that that I was doing that, but I was like, Yes, let's go, you know, and so just the talking on the radio, the the sound thinking of it in the ADHD terms, you're speaking live on the air, dopamine hit. You're operating the soundboard live, and you can't mess it up. Yeah, like I remember one early on learning about ADHD. I was learning like people who work in ER are really good, like in emergency rooms are really good at ADHD, you know, really often have ADHD. And I remember that being surprised because you're like, wait, what? You know, but now that seems so obvious to me because it's like we like that. Like I can, oh, we haven't talked about breaking news. I can focus like nobody's business when there is breaking news. Like, look out. But I will say that like everyone in the newsroom loves it. Like it's not just the ADHDers, although that's probably half the newsroom anyway, but but um but breaking news is is that's the fun times. Like you just gotta roll. Like sometimes you're turning a story around. Like you grab the phone, you get somebody on the phone, you do a little quick, you know, hey, what what happened? What are you doing? And then you you cut it up and turn it around. Like I've turned stuff around in like 45 seconds, you know. Wow. Boom, boom, boom, put it on the air, you know. Wow. Yeah. I mean that's a rush. I'm not trying to be like, I'm all that, but it's just like sometimes you have to, you just have to do it really fast, and it's fun, it's and it's fun.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Yeah. I mean, I it makes perfect sense to me why that would be such a great fit for an ADHD brain. You know, you've got the interest, you've got the urgency, you've got the excitement, it's all happening all at once. Yeah. There's a lot of dopamine in that. I imagine though that like it must also have had sort of the come down period after the story when maybe you were like tired or exhausted, you know. That's the other side of it when when there isn't a lot of dopamine. Oh, good point.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

There was probably always kind of like a letdown after that. Like, what am I even doing with my life? Yes. Yes. And then, like, did I do okay on those stories?

SPEAKER_03 27:53

Uh yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Yes. We could spend a lot of time teasing into this. Well, speaking of what you did with your life, how did you get to Seattle? When did you begin working at KUOW?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Okay, so I was back in Kansas City for thinking I'd stay for six months after I did the whole traveling around the world, which was three years. Three years that I was three years that I was abroad. And I came back to Kansas City, like, oh, I'll stay for six months. My parents missed me. I was abroad, you know. Yeah. And then I stayed for four years. There's an amazing, beautiful art scene in Kansas City, music scene, just grassroots and supportive, and just wonderful, wonderful people. And that time was very special. And I'm I'm glad I was there during that time for four years. And then I ended up planning I planned to move to the West Coast. My brother was in San Francisco at the time, but then I met my boyfriend at the time who was from Kansas City and we met back when he was back around Christmas time, holidays, you know, and he was living in Seattle, and so I went to Seattle instead of San Francisco. I mean, yeah. And so, but yeah, I started, I mean, I came visiting him and I was like, Yeah, this is great. This is this is just fine. And I saw um University of Washington. I'm I still remember and I still think about every time I drive across the bridge where you can like see University of Washington, right? I remember looking at it and being like, that's where KOW is, and I was like, Yeah, I got that. I'm doing it. It was like a like a calling. It called you. Yeah, I mean, like I'm self-conscious now because I've had that same feeling about KCUR, but I don't know, it just felt right. And I was just like, I can do this. Let's go, let's go, you know. And so I got in, you know, just doing like freelance and fill-ins and whatnot. Because I had already been working at KCUR in Kansas City.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

And then got hired there.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Congratulations. That's kind of a big deal. That's pretty awesome, actually.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Aww. You're so sweet. It was like it was a long time ago, but um, yeah, it was great. It was great. And there are a lot of things that you know led me to that that were advantageous that I I was able to, you know, do those internships for very little money, and I was able to work in radio for very little money, which of course that's that ended up being why I got out of it. But yeah, but you know, uh, you know, that's just it just it just is important that it's part of the conversation because you need to be able to support yourself on on such a low income.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Okay, well, before we veer into kind of how your life has evolved, I'd love to ask one more question related to your work there at KOW and just during that time of your life. You spent nearly 20 years in radio and you had some national stories on NPR, like for example, the one about the hackathon creating apps for good back when apps were kind of new, or the bikini barista stands in Washington State, or that landslide. Is there a story that really stands out to you today that was just particularly fun for you to create?

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Oh my gosh. I'm gonna tell you about this story because I was just talking about it yesterday.

SPEAKER_04 31:07

All right.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Like, this is such a just just a random example. It's not like my most groundbreaking. I did this whole like documentary on human trafficking. Like that was incredible. Um and I I could talk about that. It seems I'm gonna tell you about bicycle pie jousting. Oh, bicycle pie jousting. All right, yes. There's this place called Sully Snow Goose Saloon in Seattle, and I wonder if they still do it. But once a year they have a big bicycle pie joust, and you have to get on a bicycle, and then you're you try you, you and your opponent both have pies in your hand, and you try to smash the pie in the face of your opponent. Oh my gosh. While biking? Yeah, on the bike.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Gosh, I mean that sounds like a weird messy wreck.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

It's a very messy, yeah, but it's these big, huge, sturdy like old cruiser bikes. And yeah, it's very messy. And of course, everyone's drinking often, maybe not everyone. But I tr I did the story like um a sports caster, which was like a huge nod to my brother and my dad and I.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

And growing up, we would always like make fun of sports casters, like, well, it looks like he really came to play today.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

You know. What does that mean? You know, and so it was so much fun doing the story like that. Like, um, so I did this whole like bicycle pie jell story, and it's just a fun little several minutes of you know, telling the whole story of like I can't I can't remember the names of the people, but yeah, and actually the story that I should be telling you about for real for real. I did a story about my mom and my dad. I interviewed them separately in person, or actually what might have been on ISDN, which sounds like it's in person, and then I wove it together, and they just the two of them, like I didn't get in the middle, I I wove it together nicely without me, and they told the story of choosing to do joint custody and how that happened because they were the first to do it in the state of Kansas and they set the precedent.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Oh my gosh, and what wow, what an episode that must have been really poignant for you to put that together. That what a story.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

So great. It was so great, and it's so, so sweet because my mom is like, Oh, well, I never could have done it, but Gary wa allowed it, and then my dad's like, Oh, I would have to like try to tie her hair in a ponytail, and I didn't know how to do that, you know, and it's just really cute. It's so cute. I need to go, I need to pull it out and listen to it and share it. It's just it's very, very special. And now that my mom has passed away, obviously, it's even more special.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

That's my other piece of advice for the world is interview your parents. Yeah, use your voice memos on your phone. It doesn't voice memos sounds great. Just just sit them down and talk to them and ask them questions.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

That is great advice. I I want to do that. I hate it. Oh my gosh, you haven't done that. No. You're a great interviewer, Andrea. You gotta do it. I uh I really should. Thank you so much for that little nudge. I think that would be great to do that because my mom is uh she's yeah, she's getting a bit older. So I think that would be that would be amazing. Will you tell we will you tell me after you've done it? Uh I will, absolutely. And if you dig up the one about your parents, I mean we might need to put that in the show notes. That sounds amazing. Like I think everyone should listen to it. I can put it on my website. That's awesome. That's a good idea. I haven't thought of that. Okay, so while in Seattle, at some point, you met the father of your kids and you guys got together. You started a family. That's a big change. What was it like for you to become a mom with ADHD?

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah, so this is really an important topic because when you think about a mom of babies and toddlers, you think of and often you see how much they are doing. And so somehow they are just managing it all and pulling it together, and it it looks like everything is functioning.

SPEAKER_05 35:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

But the difference between ADHD women and ADHD men often is that the women are putting it all together, you know, like pulling it all together, and but internally they're so exhausted that like they're just running on adrenaline and they're just like barely keeping it together. And maybe they're like crumbling on the inside with anxiety of it all, and like having to, and and all of that exhaustion because it is also draining. Whereas men are more visible and they fall apart. I can't, I'm overwhelmed, I'm just going to withdraw, or I'm just gonna sit here and I'm not going to do some of the household chores because I'm just collapsing right now. And the re what I'm getting at is that this is so important to me because we still have such a dramatic, very serious problem in the inequality of household labor dynamics when you have a marriage between a man and a woman. Although often that still happens and those dynamics can play out when it's a same-sex marriage. So I look back at those years for myself, and also my ex-husband was a student the whole time, like for 10 years, and I was just, I just see myself with like a baby on one arm and a toddler on the other arm and working. I was working to pay for the child care while I was the only breadwinner, and I was just doing so much, and like I don't think that I felt like, hey, you guys, look at me, I'm doing so much, isn't it great? Like I I felt like just I don't know, like I felt like um I don't know, I I want to say like um inadequate.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

I just felt inadequate all the time. So, you know, this thing of the household labor situation is so strong still, even though it's 2026, for God's sakes. And I read about it in college. I read a book called The Second Shift, and I thought, sweet, I read this book, I understand what it is, and now I will have whoever I fall in love with read it, and we won't have any problems. Right. Haha. Yeah, ha ha. So it took me so, so, so much to finally realize that like my ex-husband and I had to split up, and it wasn't just something we could solve by really looking into ADHD and understand that it was more than ADHD because of in my case, I don't know if I want to say like his unwillingness to do the damn work, because whatever, you know, but I do think that a lot of times women think, well, he has ADHD. So he's struggling, he's doing his best.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

But then we don't do that for ourselves. Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Then why can we, why can we still somehow plan the birthday party? Like, yes, we're the superior beings, but still No, but we're not, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I just that is so important to me to like talk to you about that this is not acceptable. Yeah. And you know, as far as how do you handle that in a marriage, well, there are there are ways to handle it. You know, yeah you ha you can have a man with ADHD and a woman without ADHD, and you can sort through those problems and positively, you know? Yeah. Which I could talk about too. But um, but yeah, so that that's my long answer to how it was for me. And I definitely didn't know I had ADHD that whole time.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Yeah, it hits really deep what you're talking about with me. Uh back before I became a coach, you know, when I just had three little kids and I was juggling it, and my husband was very often traveling for work. Um, you know, this is like my whole origin story as a coach. I used to Google in the middle of the night who takes care of moms because you know, I was busy holding everything together for the family all the time. And nobody was holding anything together for me. And, you know, I was hoping Google could solve it, but Google did not solve it, Sarah. So I became a coach and now I try to be the person who holds it together. But the reality is that the ADHD lens really gives it a very poignant twist, which is I was trying so hard to hold it together for neurodiverse children, you know, as a neurodiverse mom who did not know I had neurodiversity. And like, that's not an easy thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Thank you. Good job for recognizing that. And you're right, and I see you. Yeah, and it is not an easy thing.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Yeah, no. At all. So I don't know if you're comfortable sharing if any of your kids have ADHD. Obviously, I've just shared. Um, you know, it's up to you. Oh, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

But both of them do. Um, I was on Clubhouse, um, again, the audio app. I know a lot of people aren't familiar with it, but um, but it was a whole flourishing scene, especially and and and the our ADHD community was really special um during the pandemic years. And my that is when my daughter got diagnosed, and we had a little like celebration on Clubhouse, like, woo, good, you join the club, you know. And um yeah, and she uh is in attentive ADHD and she's just like barely when she was diagnosed, it was like she just booped like barely in on the lower end of the spectrum, just barely into diagnosis. Um and uh and it's funny because my son has hyperactive ADHD and now is like one of those like classic cases, he's the kid that needs the spinny chair, you know. Um, and it is I had no idea. I had no idea back then that that was the what was to come. I I didn't recognize that him in that recognize that in him as a younger baby and toddler um preschooler. I I I don't know. It's interesting. But um, yeah, so he is uh so yeah, so so their dad, me, both kids, everybody's ADHD.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

Yep, super relatable. What do you feel are the gifts and challenges of being an ADHD mom who is parenting neurodiverse kids?

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Ugh, there's just so much to answer with that. The gifts and the challenges, you know. I mean, I definitely will say that I wouldn't have it any other way. It is chaotic. And and and I definitely remember how we talked in the beginning about like you just think everyone else is like that. I really did. I really thought that everybody's family looked like our family. And now I realize that is not true. Our family is our ADHD family, you know. And I feel like I connect with other families that are like this. So I'm really seeing that about myself in these recent years. I just never I never saw it like that before. So yeah, but as far as gifts and challenges, you know, one thing that I think about when I think about parenting and and parenting my ADHD uh especially my son, that whole period where I was like thinking I might want to become a coach in Clubhouse and it was the pandemic, and I my daughter got diagnosed and I'm learning all this stuff, and then after that I did get, you know, I did do the coach training. I had this very naive feeling uh or belief that since I'm gonna become an ADHD coach and I know everything about A well a lot about ADHD, that my I will be able to prohibit my son from suffering all the things that ADHD kids can suffer. Right. And it's just been really kind of sad to understand that like it's a whole big world out there. And no matter how much I teach and give and accept and understand and educate, that I'm not gonna I'm not gonna shield him from all the things that he's getting as this hyperactive ADHD kid. I'm not going to I'm not there at school. I'm not there at after school care or his th theater activities or whatever. And you know, that um statistic about ADHD kids get told twenty thousand extra times negative feedback. They get twenty thousand extra negative no's, you know, feedback by the time they're ten. Right. 12, you know, it's something like that. I'm not gonna prevent that. I'm not gonna prevent the and then also I'm not gonna be the one I'm not gonna not do it myself.

SPEAKER_05 44:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

I am still saying, hey, can you stop that? Like, sure, you know, I have tactics and I can we could talk about that for so long and all the things that I've learned, but I mean it it's I have to settle for I can minimize I can minimize the negative stuff for him. I can give him the skills to advocate for himself, to know himself. I can minimize the hard stuff that comes with being a human with ADHD.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

And of obviously I can celebrate the joyous stuff, and we do. We definitely definitely do. He knows that he's yeah, he knows his his great attributes. Like he's funny, he's really funny. Yeah, and he's so snuggly.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

I get to have a nine-year-old who's still snuggly. That's amazing. I would give a lot to have one of those. That's awesome. I hear you. I would give a lot to have their chunky, chunky monkey cheeks back. Yeah. Oh gosh. I mean, you're such a warm and outgoing person that I am very confident that at least he knows that one person in the world fully knows him and fully loves him for who he is. And just having that one person can make all of the difference.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

I know, it is so true. And I love that because when you're a person who's figuring out divorce and you're like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, that really helped me. I was like, if I've got, if a kid has one stable home, they're gonna be okay. Yeah. And his dad is a nurturing involved loving dad, so no, I should at least I should at least be thorough enough to say that. Their dad. I haven't talked about my daughter as much, but yeah. She's 11 and given the right moment, I can still give her so many hugs.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Not all the time, but sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

Anyway, yeah. So yeah, I I um very grateful. I, you know, they're they're they are clever and they're just clever little humans.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Yeah. I'm not surprised at all. Um so Sarah, you were diagnosed finally with ADHD later in life. And when I say later in life, I really just mean we're super young and vibrant, right? I just mean like there were some years that had passed. So I know I love being 32. I just have the whole world ahead of me. Forever. 32 forever. You and me both. Yeah. So can we dig a little deeper into the diagnosis? Were you surprised by it? Did it change your understanding of yourself? Like what was that like?

SPEAKER_02 46:48

I've really struggled to get diagnosed because I felt like I don't mean like to go get diagnosed, but I just really struggled with like trying to figure out if I really had it. Because I had done one assessment where somebody was like, Oh, well, you definitely don't have ADHD. Like somebody had said that to me. Oh, wow, okay. Honestly. Yeah. And it it it I think that it's because of I think that because of the therapist's mom, my amazing mom. Yeah, I think that I was able to I don't know, like have enough positive self-talk. I think that what it was possibly that like skewed the intake of whatever it was might have been something to do with like the way that my mom, you know, having this therapist mom and I I don't know, uh like positive self-talk, maybe, because I didn't have a lot of angst about always being late. I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm still trying to figure it out. Like, what was it that that person was like, oh well you don't have ADHD? Like, what was that? I mean, because you know, because I I did okay academically too. Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

Well, some people make that mistake. They're like, oh, well, if you're good at school, you can't possibly have ADHD, which is ridiculous because a lot of us did fine in school and we were just struggling in other parts of life.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've never been somebody who's on time.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

I mean, s yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

I've never been somebody who doesn't struggle with interrupting. I mean, that is a huge one for me. Part of this thing in the clubhouse world I keep mentioning is somebody's uh coming out with a book um with Dr. Hollowell and Catherine Snedeker. It's gonna be great. And there's five or six of us in it that are doing these 128 questions. Oh, that's so cool. And so the the book is like you go through and you read the the questions for yourself, but they're giving some examples of us answering them, and they asked like all these questions, and then like little by little by little you start getting to like the all these questions describe you, and that that is the experience for me. Like, it's 128 questions. One of the questions is like, do you sometimes imagine hugging the person who's talking to you, even if they're not even somebody you know very well? I was like, Why are you in my head? How do you know that about me? Like, uh, that is so does that and that resonates with you?

SPEAKER_03 49:19

100%.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Except I actually do hugging people.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

I actually do hug them. I'm a very huggy person.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Me too, but not everybody is, so I've learned. Yeah. And I'm in Seattle. Seattle people are kind of close.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

That's true. I'm in Southern California. It's a little easier down here. It's a little easier, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Yes, totally is. But I I ask. I just ask first now.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

I learned about consent. That's good.

SPEAKER_03 49:44

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 49:45

Yeah. Okay. So yeah. But um, I was gonna tell you something about those questions though, is when I was filling that out and recently, and and if I have time to tell you this. Yeah, of course. I was in detention all the time. Really? Yep, for being late. Okay. So I was in detention with the quote unquote bad kids. It was me and the bad kids because I was always late. And so I would get a detention. And but I never minded because I got so much studying done. It's a quiet 45-minute or whatever 50-minute period where you didn't you didn't get to do anything but sit there. So I would have all my books and I would get so much done. So I just in the last couple of months figured this out. I was but it was a body doubling experience. Oh, that makes so much sense. Yes. I was like, whatever, I got another detention. Who cares? I'm gonna get a lot of studying done. Body doubling.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

Yes. For listeners who don't know what that is, would you mind defining it for them real fast?

SPEAKER_02 50:46

Oh, yeah. It's been a great tool for me learning that term. Body doubling means that somebody else is seeing you do the work. So if you're home and you have somebody else in the house and you have your screen up and you're like, I really need to work on this thing, but they're walking by and they can see what you're doing, what you're doing that works as body doubling. There's something called focus mate, which I use when I'm really finding myself having a hard time focusing. You get on, you tell the person, and there's there's a video call, you tell the person, hey, what are you working on? I'm working on this. They you both know what each other's working on, and then you minimize their screen, and then they stay at the bottom of your screen where they can see you and you can see them while you guys do your work for like 50 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

That's really cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

And I I recommend it to people all the time. It is, it really, really works for me. So yeah, that is very helpful for me for those projects that there sometimes something happens with me where there's just a project that I just don't want to do it. And then I will do all the other things and I won't do it, and then another week goes by and I still haven't done it, and then it starts to grow. And like the the fear around it, like, oh my god, I feel bad I haven't done that.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Right. And it might not even be that big of a deal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

It's just somehow it just gets into that category. So that's where I I end up needing extra tools like FocusMade.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

That's awesome. What a great tool. And I yeah, I think almost every ADHD person out there is gonna relate to sometimes there's a project you just don't want to do. It just it's a human thing, right? But it's somehow it's just a little harder. I don't know. Why do we do that? Ugh, gosh, we could talk a whole podcast about that. But Sarah, I want to talk about how you became an ADHD coach because, like, obviously, you have a lot of skills and tools. You're sharing them so generously here. How did you make the decision to go into coaching? And um, you know, what's something important you learned from your training?

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Oh, I love ADHD coaching. I love that I get to do this. I love that I get to help people find their way into the answer of how to solve their problems. And I guess I would say that like one thing that stands out of among a zillion from my coach training and my beloved cohort and and that experience is the fact that all of my radio host interviewing skills completely transfer to ADHD coaching because I interview people. Like, what were you thinking when that happened? Why, why, why? Why is like the the the holy word of interviewing, right? You know? And little by little I help guide them to how to solve their problems. I don't tell them what to do. And I just I love interviewing people. I mean, before I ever in a million years thought about being an ADHD coach, I loved that whole skill set and process and experience. And I loved getting nerdy about improving it and and and looking at it and listening back and what questions work and that kind of thing. What questions you know are useful and and help evoke you know people to think about themselves. Anyway, and so that would be one thing that I can say I can pinpoint is so exciting that I was able to figure that out.

SPEAKER_03 53:55

I love that. What's one of your favorite things about working now with people with ADHD? People just like you and me.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

I just love helping people find their truth, as cheesy as that sounds. Like I can see myself in an an ad with a little soft voice. Find your truth. But I it's kind of what I just said is you know that concept, and I try to make that loud and clear on my website and like talking about what ADHD coaching is. It's not me telling you, like, use focus mate, that's what you need to do. It's it's about like asking enough questions to where they figure it out. And and do you want to hear my example for how I explain that to people?

SPEAKER_04 54:30

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

So in the ADHD coach training, we all coached each other. And as the student, as the client, somebody coached me and I picked the topic. So we, you know, you start the session by picking the topic, and I picked the topic of, okay, how do I not lose my temper with my kids? And through the questioning that I talked about, but little by little it wrapped around and came back to I need to get more sleep.

SPEAKER_03 55:00

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

They did not tell me that because how would that person know that about me? Yeah. But through the questioning, what about this and what about that? And what days have worked, what has worked for you in the past? And I figured out like, go to bed. Mm-hmm. Just go to bed because your days are so much better when you get more sleep. Anyway, so that's one example of how that works. And I know you know that, and I love it.

SPEAKER_05 55:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

Well, I can tell you're a really effective coach, and the questioning I can see is a super, super amazing, tremendous extra uh secret tool in your toolkits. If somebody wanted to work with you, Sarah, or you know, learn more about your work as an ADHD coach, where would they go to look right now? My website. It is drumroll.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

Trustlove.com, T-R-U-S-S-Love.com, because trustbridges are the strongest of all bridges.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

I love that. I did not know that before meeting you, and I love that. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

It is trustlove.com, which can mean a bridge between you and your partner, a bridge to you and your own self and inner heart, a bridge between you and your child. Whatever you want, but that's what it's called. So thank you for asking. And I would love for your listeners to talk to me there. And also I'm on Instagram at SJ Learner, so it's at SJ L E R N E R.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

Perfect. Okay, well, we will link to both those things in the show notes so that people can find you very easily. So, okay, before we wrap up, what is one ADHD tool or strategy that you feel has really helped a client or multiple clients? What's something you'd recommend?

SPEAKER_02 56:41

I think that setting attainable goals is important. I think that sometimes with a non-ADHD partner, I think it's it's understanding that the partner needs to be energized and energetic and I mean energetic about the process, but then it's also making a compromise really quick. Like if somebody's spouse is always coming to bed at 3 a.m. and then she wakes up and then she doesn't get enough sleep, you figure out, you don't say you must come to bed at 11. You say you she she figured out he goes to sleep downstairs on those nights. So you see the compromise of like, so those solutions are in there. I know I'm giving you such a long answer, Andrea. No, it's great. I love it, I love it. Um, and then the thing that I would love to share is I know that people have a hesitation and fear around just getting diagnosed. And my uh tip on that, if you are willing and if you feel comfortable and are ready, is that on the other side of a diagnosis can be a gorgeous positive kaleidoscope of knowledge. And knowledge is power.

SPEAKER_03 58:00

Yes, it is. And you want that. Yes. Ah, it gives me the chills. Uh so good. Uh, Sarah, it has just been so fantastic to have you here on the podcast. Thank you so much for this time and for your amazing stories, and for, you know, representing what is so important to me at the heart of this new podcast, which is that ADHD is so much more than the stereotypes about it, right? Like it's not just the scattered, it is truly also the spectacular. So thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

What a great podcast name, Andrea, and what a great host you are. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

This has been a blast for me as well. I honestly think that most women with ADHD are like me in some way, leading full lives that are woven through with both the challenges and the blessings of our ADHD. Could you please help spread the word about this new podcast of mine, Scattered and Spectacular? Because I'll be back soon with new episodes and interviews. And if you have questions, you can also find me on Instagram at Scattered and Spectacular or through my bigger Instagram account, which is at Think2thrive Coaching. And if you enjoyed the podcast, please, please leave it a five-star review and consider sending this episode to somebody that you think it can serve. Because my mission is to help ADHD women like me understand ourselves better with more self compassion and love. And to help us finally feel like with this new self understanding, we can fully live up to our potential. And that's what I have for you today.