John Orr

John Orr, a fellow knuckle dragger and the most prolific arsonist in American history, his story is broken down at the kitchen table of 72 House. But make no mistake… he can’t sit with us. 


Sources:
Wikipedia
Points of Origin, John L. Orr (Book)
John Leonard Orr: Firefighter, Arsonist, Murderer, The Casual Criminalist (Podcast)

Instagram: 72_media

Email: 72HousePodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

0:00
All right, you fuckers, ready?
Yes.
All right, let's do this. 72 House K Jack 7.
Stabbing 1000 E Mission Dr. 72 House K Jack 7.
0:23
All right, Welcome to 72 House.
I'm one of your hosts, Víctor García.
To my left is crazy Rob Andrews and to my right is fancy Lance Carlson.
Fancy pants.
Grab a chair, belly up, and welcome to dinner at The Deuce.
0:39
All right, so today a gentleman by the name of John Leonard Orr.
Rob, you turned me on to this case.
I.
Did near and dear to our profession.
It is.
It is.
0:55
And honestly, when you told it to me, I, I thought that sounds kind of boring.
Yeah.
And then I got to actually looking into it and it it, it's interesting.
Very.
It's an older story.
It is a little.
A while ago, and I remember first hearing this when I was young, like long time ago, I think in the maybe the late 80s.
1:16
I remember hearing about this for the first time way back when.
So, so he's considered the most prolific arsonist in American history and they they can't even really account for all of his fires because he hasn't admitted to him, but they know for sure it's thousands in in the 2000 range and over a 30 year period.
1:40
Wonder how many deaths?
Well, for sure for.
For for sure for including a little 2 year old.
Including a 2 year old.
Man, you think that'd be his last one?
You know once that.
Happened well, you would think yeah, but just getting started it most certainly wasn't wow matter of fact, that's a piece of the story we get into that the the victims and his thoughts on that.
2:01
So as we know, he, you know, one of the things to me that made this so interesting is that the crimes itself, right, are what they are.
But the book that he wrote that basically outlines everything.
That nobody knew.
That nobody knew at the time.
2:17
So do you did?
Did you understand that concept?
Not really.
No.
So he basically, not to spoil anything, but he wrote a book that I think people thought it was like fiction.
They did.
That's what.
It was, it was pretty much like manifesto like basically saying I've did.
2:34
Basically he did.
He wrote a book about all the shit that he did.
He was writing his memoirs.
That's.
What I find interesting about that psychology about people who do horrific things that they want to.
Tell the story.
Oh, they do.
And that comes out, I think.
It does.
It does.
That'll come out, absolutely.
It's pretty fucking crazy.
2:50
Yeah, the book is the part that if you read the book, you know, it gives you a look into the mind of a really sick person that you don't get with most of these crimes.
And so that's the part I think that sold me on it.
3:06
And I was like, Oh yeah, we definitely got to do this.
Plus it he's in the same industry we are.
So it was definitely, Yeah, definitely interesting.
All right, so let's get going.
So the so the early years for John Orr, born on April 26th, 1949.
3:22
He grew up in LA in a middle class neighborhood, two brothers.
His father owned a sporting goods store, pretty normal up to that point.
Right when he was 16, his mother said, hey, I'm taking a trip back to where she was born to her childhood home and I'll see you guys soon.
3:45
Never came back.
Well, that's not true.
She came back three years later, so.
Yeah, hell of a trip.
Yeah, hell of a trip, right?
So that was a big.
So this is back.
How old?
How old was he when she did that?
So 49 + 16.
Yeah, 60.
4:00
So unheard of back then for women to do that.
Yeah, unheard of.
Yeah.
So his mom was mentally ill, Clearly.
Or there was something fucked up going on in the home.
Women just don't do that.
Like, well, women don't generally leave their children correct.
You know if.
They're getting beat or something like that.
They'll usually take them with them.
Right, right.
4:17
So, yeah, she left and he was 16.
And that was a kind of a big marker in his life.
And he talks about that not in the book, but he talks about it in different interviews.
So on his high school career day, he spoke with a Los Angeles Fire Department captain who told him, hey, you shouldn't listen the military and learn to fight fire there because you're young and and you got time.
4:43
Which is kind of crazy because actually when I was in EMT school, right outside of high school, I went to MCC and one of the Phoenix captains that taught it.
I talked to him afterwards and he told me the exact same thing.
4:59
He said, hey, you're young, you should go to the Air Force and learn to fight fire there.
Yeah, Mason, communicologist, firefighter, 1/2 program.
Well, their EMT program, yeah.
Their EMT program, Yeah.
Who's the captain?
You remember.
Can't remember his name right now but I he's still on the job.
Oh wow.
5:15
Yeah.
But anyway, so it's I read that was like, well, that's strange because that's the exact same thing that happened to me.
So on his 18th birthday, he would leave the basic military training.
That was April 26th, 1967.
What branch service did he own?
5:31
Air Force, so he was assigned to Fire Protection and would go through the United States Air Force Joint Fire Training Academy.
So again, interesting.
Back then it used to be at a place called Chanute, which I can't remember where Chanute is.
5:46
What state was cold.
I know that.
And when I went through it was in Texas and so, but none the less it was the same training program and it it was just kind of strange some of the similarities for me with him.
OK, as far as the fire, the fire department stuff went.
6:05
So his first assignment was at an Air Force Base in Spain, which pretty bad ass.
For an 18 year old for sure.
Yeah, an 18 year old in Spain.
Yeah, ridiculous.
And later on, he would reflect on his time as an Air Force firefighter and say he didn't get enough action and it was boring.
6:27
According to John, he only had two aircraft crashes in his time in the United States Air Force.
Only goddamn.
Exactly.
Yeah, why would have more people?
Trained, Yeah.
And honestly, that too, it kind of does give you an idea of his thought process, right?
Like he wants to be a shitty things to happen and be.
6:43
Yeah.
So he was transferred to Montana in 1970.
From Spain to Montana.
Spain to Montana you.
Fucking did something wrong.
He would only fight one small fire though.
Throughout basically the rest of his time, he was.
Like it's like a shift.
6:59
Because he have a pretty much he was.
He was honorably discharged from the Air Force in April of 1971.
Oh, OK, so you did it.
Yeah, so.
He's an old dude.
It's OK.
Upon reflecting on his time in the Air Force, he would also say that he really didn't like his commanding officers or anyone in a position of authority.
7:20
He he believed.
I plead the 5th.
Well, he believed they were.
I'm interested to hear what you say about his thoughts, he said.
He said he felt they were arrogant and compensating for their shortcomings as firefighters.
I don't agree with that.
I mean, I don't, I have, I wouldn't say I haven't had experience with any of my leaders that I would put in that category.
7:44
I don't think that those are the issues that I had with any administrative authoritative figure in the fire service.
From my experience, I didn't think that they lacked with their firefighting skills.
It was more.
That's a whole nother podcast, OK?
7:59
OK.
All right.
Yeah, Yeah.
I'll, I'll chime in on that one on their.
Next.
Yeah.
And just for the listeners, I am might, I am biting my tongue and it's bleeding.
So it's bleeding.
Yeah.
All right.
So 1971 was a big year for John.
He and his wife gave birth to his first child, a daughter, and he also began testing for a career in public safety.
8:22
I say public safety because John tested with both PD and fire.
Oh, he's one of those guys.
He is OK, According to John, this is also the same time period that his marriage began falling apart.
Yeah, so.
He's he's, he is a fireman.
Yeah, totally.
8:38
Yeah.
Or a cop.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So a lot of things happening.
This is like when he's brand new too.
Still.
Oh wow.
Well, he's not even on the job yet.
He's not even on the job.
Yeah, OK.
So John tested with LAPD and he passed all portions of the test except, uh oh, the psych eval.
8:58
I'm gonna say Yep.
Yep.
Wonder what that was like back then.
I don't know.
Porsche test or.
Something.
But that tells you something about him too, because in my mind, any psych eval test, it's pretty clear what answers they're looking at.
9:13
Like, like one of the questions that candidates frequently get asked is like sex with animals.
Who wouldn't know that the correct answer is probably no.
So to me, that speaks portions about, you know, his mental illness.
9:30
If you're not passing psyche vals, something's up.
Yeah, OK, now we know.
Don't.
Have such animals so he he fails his psyche Val so he goes out and hires his own mental health expert to test him and was deemed stable by that mental health in.
Today's fire service.
9:47
How many people would fail a psyche?
Yeah, at this.
Point.
Well, I don't think any because they would lie.
Yeah, yeah.
They just fake it a little bit.
You know, they're smart enough.
He told the truth, probably.
And he's like.
Yeah, exactly.
So he hires his own mental health expert, but LAPD said no, that's not how it works.
10:04
Wait, he failed.
Then he hired his own.
Guys, yes.
And then did he pass his own?
He did.
He's got some sort of superiority God complex, you know?
Yeah, You know what I mean?
So he he says you, you told me I can't do something, so I'm going to go do it on my own.
But how it was?
Instead of just going, yeah, maybe I'm fucked up.
10:21
Yeah, so and this.
Is back in the late.
This is back in the 70s.
This is 70s.
Yeah.
Oh, man, early 70s to the PD and fire.
Yeah, there wasn't.
Still can't have sex with animals.
This is true.
This is true.
That was still frowned upon.
Yeah.
So the psyche valve that he took, what it would determine is that John was passive, irresponsible, immature, had problems with women and sex, and the test would ultimately suggest that John had a personality trait disturbance.
10:50
OK so he just described literally every B, every B shift from ghost to ghost.
That's.
Exactly what he just just described.
OK, check.
Yeah, Yeah.
So I think I was on B shift, Yeah.
Anyways, it's nuts to me too, to be honest that you know, say, I don't know, say an hour test that you do can tell you all these things about a person if you, I guess, if you answer honestly, But because obviously it was somewhat correct, right?
11:16
He had, well, a bunch of problems.
Yeah, I mean.
So.
If he's the most notorious arsonist in the country's history, right?
Probably not going to pass a psychosokey.
Bell Yeah.
You don't do that with a clean slate.
Yeah.
I mean, you got to, you got to have some screws loose.
11:32
Absolutely.
So he would eventually get hired with LAFD, but he would struggle with the.
Yeah, fire.
Will take you.
They, they, they.
All the cop listeners out there.
Fucking see what it's yeah, so he can do.
11:49
Psyche valves now for for fire 'cause they didn't back in the day.
They do.
They do now.
They do, yeah.
So he would struggle with the written and physical tests.
So he was let go in the Academy.
LAPD says Nope, you're not mentally stable.
12:04
LAFD cuts him because he's not meeting the standard academically or.
How important skills.
Courses are you were one.
Absolutely, yes.
So he he's off to a bad start, so.
Divorce can't get on with public safety and he's only had two plane fires.
12:21
Yes.
So in 1974, so you figured this is three years of testing and trying to get on, right?
In 1974 he applies with Glendale, CA Fire department.
At the time, Glendale Fire Department was the lowest paid and considered generally an undesirable fire department to work for.
12:43
So I I don't want to name any agencies in the valley, but you know, it's the equivalent of.
Those.
Having to go to an agency that that generally we're.
We've seen no names, but I think any of the listeners in the valley would know that people that have had issues and been let go or had to leave, they all.
13:04
Ultimately, default to those to.
Those.
Right, right.
There are certain places they know they can, they can find a home, right?
So.
But you can't fault them, you know?
I mean, you go where you.
It is what it is, right?
That is what it is.
So John said he was bored working as a firefighter.
13:20
Not a boy.
And now we're getting to the goods, right?
So now he's on the job, right?
He said it was boring, so he took a job, all that.
Time.
And now he's just bored.
Yep, Yep.
Kind of like back in in Spain.
Yeah, exactly.
So he takes a job as a check out clerk at a Local 711, a part time gig.
13:38
Robs himself and kills the other.
That's where he's going to find his action at the 711.
That's it.
So much more entertaining.
While working at 711, he would meet a female who would soon become his second wife.
Nice.
Right, that's the like prime.
13:54
Dating well, so his first wife, John, left a note for her.
Her name was Jody and he left his daughter high and dry.
Then so he left Jody and his daughter for this 711 chick.
Yes, just like his mom.
Pretty much like his mom left him.
14:10
Yeah, OK.
Almost identical, right?
And that's and that's the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
OK, so he leaves a note and bounces later.
So you guys are going to start putting faces that we know now to some of these things.
Already done it.
So according to John, he single handedly apprehended a shoplifter while at work at 711.
14:32
He said he liked the rush he got from that and so he began looking for a part time job in security.
He was hired as a security guard at Sears.
At.
Sears so we all.
Like loss prevention kind of guy.
No, like I think like a guy at the door looking for shoplifters and.
14:50
Show me the receipts.
Let me sell those panties and two of your pockets.
Exactly, Sears.
But we all know, we all have worked with those people in the fire service, that they should have been cops.
Yeah, a couple names coming to mind.
Yes.
And I remember telling, like, Scott Williams, he used to crack me up because he was always on the lookout for criminals, you know?
15:12
Yeah.
And I'd laugh and be like, man, you should have been a cop.
We could have just looked in the station and you.
Know.
Yeah, no doubt there was plenty of them sitting, sitting on the truck with them.
Exactly.
Yeah, do you know why?
Because they firemen steal women's hearts.
Oh.
Yeah, we'll edit that out.
15:29
In some men's hearts, too.
So John would eventually get a concealed weapons license and would be known in the fire department as a wannabe police officer.
And we'll, we'll you'll see.
There'll be more, a little bit more about his relationship being painted.
Yes.
But you're seeing who he is at this point.
15:45
And those of us that are on the job understand when when you start hearing these things, you go, OK, I'm getting an idea of who this guy is.
Yeah.
We, we know this guy.
We do.
We know this guy without knowing this guy.
Yes.
So in certain areas of California they had what was called Hill Patrol, HILLL Hill Patrol.
16:05
These firefighters would drive the hills of the area they were in and watch for brush fires as well as ticket owners of overgrown lots, as you can imagine.
The original HOA.
John was a record writer of tickets.
16:21
She wrote a shit ton of tickets.
For him, then you tell me what you gotta go.
I just assume everybody from.
This way overgrown way overgrown.
It's gonna be the 50s.
That might be the 50s.
Yeah, yeah, you say I'm gonna.
Write you a citation.
Two of these you gotta find.
He's left on the wrist.
So he wrote a lot of tickets, which fits the bill, right?
16:40
Fits the profile.
So at this time, John left his second wife for a woman he met while working at Sears.
Wait, so he was married, had a daughter, had a daughter, that wife was Jodi.
Jodi.
And he left her.
For the 711 and.
Now he upgraded to the Sears.
16:57
Chick to the Sears chick.
This is correct.
Actually, one of the mannequins that's.
Right.
She never talks back.
Yeah, yeah, she lays there.
Yeah, she.
Just lays there.
All right, so John decided to test for the internal position of fire investigator.
17:14
And the fire investigator, you know he's still employed on the job.
It's not.
Like with the city of Glendale, CA, he's.
Still a firefighter?
He's a firefighter slash investigator.
He's a firefighter who's working as an investigator.
Oh, OK.
So he gave up Sears.
He get no, I think he's still at Sears Partners.
17:32
With his third wife at this point.
Yeah.
What year is this?
This is in 74 or five.
So this is literally over of like a three, three or four year span time, yes.
OK, he just wants the action.
He's getting it.
Yeah, Yeah.
So the investigating position that he took was formally recognized as a peace officer, and it allowed John to carry a handgun.
17:54
Oh boy.
So as you can imagine, this is where John really felt at home.
And that brings us kind of to the next significant chapter in his life.
OK, so like I said, we all know people like this in the fire service, but he's one of those guys that a buff of some sort do.
18:10
You think that those guys, when we say quote those guys, do you think those guys know that they're those guys?
No, no.
They don't.
I think they have some sort of superiority.
They should be in a certain position that they covet and they think everybody in that position is an idiot, you know?
18:26
What I'm saying, So they have to aspire into that position to make everything better.
That's what they think in themselves.
Yeah, they're going to save the world.
Well, they they think that they're.
They're so important in their own brain.
Yeah.
They have so much importance and value to what?
Yeah.
And they're just not being recognized.
They're more wrong, yes.
18:41
Than when you fucking walk away from the job you realize it was a fucking speed bump.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, interesting.
So this next part of John's life is the piece of his life where he became an investigator.
OK, so as you can tell, John never really fit in as a firefighter.
18:59
He was socially awkward, not in good physical shape, and constantly mocked for his perceived desire to be a police officer.
John claimed there was not enough action as a firefighter and he believed himself to be smarter than the firefighters he worked with and generally smarter than everybody.
19:16
Yeah, this place sucks.
Anyway, I'm out of here.
Yeah, I'm smarter than everyone.
Yeah, I can't do the job.
So this place sucks.
You guys suck.
I want to be an.
Investigator.
Oh my God.
There's a few names that immediately came to mind that I won't mention.
Yes, and, and that's what I'm saying, Like, it's interesting because we can put names for sure to that personality.
19:35
It's not that rare in the fire service.
Yeah.
When John became a fire investigator, he was allowed to carry a handgun and was assigned with a Glendale Police Department detective.
The detective thought it was ridiculous that John could and did carry a gun.
So back then you get assigned an investigator and you have a permanent assigned cop.
19:57
Cop with you.
Right, which is obviously completely different than anything we do in the valley.
And The funny thing is even the cops, like what the heck's wrong with this dude?
Why is he carrying a gun?
Why is he think he's a cop?
Actually, most of the detectives in Glendale Police Department became familiar with John and also Clown John for wanting to be a police officer.
20:18
So this guy's literally just a lot laughing stock of fire completely, completely.
And he's completely oblivious and clueless to it completely.
And he thinks he's smarter than everybody.
Yes.
And he's the butt of everybody jokes.
Yep, and so as.
How many names just came to mind?
Exactly.
20:35
So his social awkwardness as as we see, wasn't exclusive to the fire department.
He was not very well liked.
He was mostly just tolerated OK pretty much anywhere he went, whether it was police or fire.
Well, I kind of feel that way at home.
Just kidding.
20:52
So although John was not well liked, he would eventually come to be respected as a fire investigator.
He seemed to have the knack for being in the right place at the right time and an uncanny ability to sniff out arsonists.
So.
21:10
Hold on.
Coined the phrase.
It takes one to no one.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think too, I mean, you know, at the end of the day, you never really know what these people.
But, you know, it wouldn't shock me if him becoming an arsonist, a piece of that was to actually know how to be an investigator.
21:29
People like that, that are like buffs, Yeah.
You know they.
Well, they know the tricks right now to get away with it.
I've had a few fire investigators along the way.
Kind of like, hey, if you ever want to burn down your house.
This is the way they.
Do it, You know, not that I ever would, but I'm just saying, you know, they know they know the insurance and outs.
21:47
So you can't now.
I think the guy that's going to be like, if he's an investigator and he's the country's most notorious arsonist, those, well, they, they kind of learned how to dodge and weave.
They have.
Dogs now that can sniff out a bunch of, you know, solvents and they've learned a lot of shit from the 70s.
Probably from this dude actually.
22:03
I wouldn't doubt it.
I'm sure there's a piece of.
Several books about what not to do and what I'm sure you dude back at that that time I bet you could murder a ton of people.
Well, they didn't have video, they didn't have video, they didn't have all that stuff.
I mean, you get away with literally get away.
With murder, yeah.
They didn't have cell phones.
They didn't have the Internet.
22:19
You can't get away with anything anymore.
Yeah, like, no, they said like 70% of your day is like was recorded on video.
Yeah, wow, Crazy Big brother's watching, let alone the phones.
Yeah, no doubt.
So John attended a lot of fire investigation conferences.
22:34
He worked with a lot of other jurisdictions, fire investigators and was fairly well known in that community.
The conferences he attended would eventually be a piece of his undoing.
So the next kind of chapter that I want to cover in John's life is are the fires that he started and kind of that piece of like.
22:53
This this is when he actually starts his little arson career.
Well, he'd actually been burning stuff for a while, and so really we can't cover all of his fires because most of his fires were like brush fires and OK, a lot of stuff that wasn't recorded.
Not occupied.
Not occupied and and really doesn't make the news interesting.
23:11
So we'll talk primarily about some of the bigger ones and and the sheer amount of fires that he started.
But this bro has probably been starting fires and doing shit like that since.
Since the beginning.
Yeah, since way back when, yeah.
And you like?
Our 8 year old Dick Ed guy from Germany that we talked about in that spot fire crazy.
23:29
In 1984, John started a fire in an it's called Ollie's.
It was an 18,000 square foot hardware store.
Which is wow.
Monstrous.
He used what would become his signature time delay device.
This is what I remember.
23:44
Something like matches in a cigarette, correct?
He would like shove like down something correct in like little clothing racks or something like that, right?
And he'd be like, long gone.
Yep.
And the kicker is a lot of the time those things, they left enough of residue of residue and those things where they see, OK, this is the same one that was used in the previous one and so forth.
24:07
Really.
Yeah, so like I said, he used the what you talked about, Rob, which was a lit cigarette secured to a few matches with a rubber band and wrapped in ruled yellow writing paper.
24:23
And that's kind of the key, right, Because that yellow writing paper that that size and the, you know, the differences in spaces, they found these at every fire that there was evidence left.
They found this of his fires.
So what he would do is, like you had talked about Rob, he placed the device in displays and then left to watch his work.
24:47
So he'd light a cigarette wrapped up these little matches, a little bit of yellow line paper.
Yep, and then he would stuff that in these displays and then bail and then sit back and watch this thing unfold.
Yep, and we'll get into that a little bit too.
Well, a lot of bit, because that gets into the whole other sickness that this guy has.
25:04
So this Ollies fire.
Four people would die in this fire, including a 2 year old child.
Remember hearing that, That's that's tragic.
Yeah.
And so in the book he.
This is a book he wrote.
The book he wrote there are.
25:19
Way after the fact.
No, like not way after, but he, he had wrote it over a period of like three years or something like that.
There were things that he knew about that fire that he put in the book that you could only know if.
The motherfucker that started.
25:36
Yeah.
But he was trying to write it as if he was an investigator investigating that fire, and he put it in this book.
Yes, and that is the one of the weirdest things ever.
He.
Would theoretically know.
Well, it was a confession.
He was confessing to everything, but he sold everybody on him being this great investigator.
25:53
But of course, he's a great investor because he knows how to solve because he fucking did it.
But was there, was there aspects of that fire that no one would have really known, including an investigator, except for him?
Yes.
Yeah, that's, but they're, that's what he's saying, yes, Yeah.
But I mean, couldn't he get away with it saying, well, I investigate it and this is my theory and this is what I'm writing about?
26:11
So that fire, so that old, that's.
Exactly what he's talking about.
Yeah, so that.
Part of this podcast, are you?
Listening.
I'm listening.
OK?
What I'm saying is he, I, I in my, I'm trying to put my, my feet in his shoes, right?
Don't hurt.
Don't hurt yourself.
Well, he's writing this book, but he investigated that fire, right?
26:29
I assume he investigated.
Well, yes and no.
He wasn't the primary investigator for that fire because it was in another city.
I thought he was brought.
Right.
But he would drive, he would drive outside of his jurisdiction or whatever and like these.
Fans, because it was so big and there were fatalities.
There were all kinds.
26:44
Of brought investigators.
OK.
I thought he was, he was writing about the fire that he started that he personally was a lead investigator in.
He was not the OK, that makes sense.
So the only store was located in Pasadena and so it was out of his jurisdiction.
But because of the size and the deadliness of the fire, investigators from multiple jurisdictions were utilized, including John.
27:05
The fire was initially determined to be accidental, with all but, you guessed it, one person disagreeing and saying Nope, this is an arsonist.
I have a hunch, yes.
It might have been a guy I know, a guy I know.
Yeah, Oh, yeah.
Speaking for a friend, I would say this is an arsonist.
27:24
So the crazy thing is, you would think like a normal mind would think, I start this fire, four people die and they think it was an accident.
That's a victory, right?
You would think a normal person, but.
I got away with it, I'm good, right on to the next one.
27:40
Yep.
Not this dude, probably.
Not sitting well with him.
He wants the notoriety.
He this motherfucker wants to be exactly like.
He's been chomping at the bit for this ever since.
He was not about the fucking working at the 711.
It, well, somewhat right, but it is also largely about getting noticed.
27:57
I guess he didn't think about the part where now you have to find the person who did it.
Yeah, right.
Rather.
Looking for someone?
Yeah, exactly.
Whoopsie.
We just not do that part.
We just not look for anybody.
Kidding.
I'm kidding.
The notoriety and not look for anybody.
Exactly so.
28:12
Fast forward 1987.
John attends a fire investigators conference in Fresno.
During that weekend of the conference, a string of arson fires were started in the area.
Imagine that.
Or who it was.
Right.
Investigators were able to locate the incendiary devices, which you know what?
28:31
That is his matches.
But explain to me how like, so I've been in a countless number of fires.
How did that stuff, it's paper, it's cigarettes match how the fucked?
How did it not burn?
How did not burn and go away?
Like how do they?
The only thing I could assume is that the flame itself started lighting and whatever else took off, right, and went up.
28:51
And what was left on the bottom didn't burn because not only were they able to find some of the paper matches and rubber band, but they were also able to lift a print off of that.
Yes, It was a partial print that they were able to lift and catalogue from one of those fires.
29:10
Really.
Yeah.
So here's where it gets kind of cool to me.
So this guy, right, he wants to be known as this like, you know.
Superhero.
Superhero investigator, right?
Yeah.
Well, one of the real guys that's good at his job was an investigator named Captain Marvin G Casey.
29:26
That name means nothing to anybody, but I wanted to put his name in here just because he's the real deal.
He's fucking, he's fucking solved the case, yes.
Did he?
Well, he's, he started it on the right path.
So he's he was a Bakersfield Fire Department investigator and he began to believe that these fires were the work of one of the investigators from the conference.
29:48
I know who, just who it is.
That fucking weirdo in the corner.
That's the guy we don't like, right?
The cop.
It's the guy who smells like smoke.
With a gas can in his hand.
I'm no genius, but this guy's looking suspicious.
Rhymes with boar John?
What was the guy's name?
John Orr.
John Leonard Orr So his John's business of choice was usually fabric stores because they have a ton of easily ignitable material, an abundance of hiding spots, and a large, large fire load.
30:15
He loved to stuff his devices in bundles of cloth or pillows, which is around the time the arsonist was nicknamed the Pillow Pyro.
Pillar pillow biting pyro.
Yes, which is an awesome nickname.
Fast forward right, another Fire investigation conference was scheduled for March of 1989.
30:35
Wait what was the what was the date of the 1st 187?
Shit?
So this is years.
He's been doing this shit for years.
Oh yeah.
And he's lighting shit the whole way like he's.
He's he's a lot of times lighting fires 567 a day.
Oh shit, really?
Yes.
30:51
So 1989, right?
Another one scheduled usually, as you would probably guess, a few days before the conference begins fire start breaking out in the air.
OK, it's getting a little bit too suspicious and obvious at this point.
So is he breaking into these fabric stores?
31:06
No, no, they're operating normal just.
Rolling in during the day man from what I saw I remember watching something on this guy way back when.
Like way way way back.
During the day then like.
During the day, just going in during normal operating business hours and like lighten that shit up and they just leaving.
31:21
But like, I guess people just don't smoke like they used to.
It's kind of like, I mean back in the day like that you'd go in grocery store and people just smoking in the grocery store.
So they wouldn't have thought anything about smelling the smoke is my point.
You know what?
I.
Mean, yeah, yeah, probably less.
Like that they wouldn't have thought anything about it until it like torched and started going.
31:37
Yeah, probably less so, I would guess.
So investigators begin to put some of the pieces together.
They got smart and got a list of attendees to both conferences.
One of the names that stood out as being at both of those conferences was obviously John Leonard or.
31:54
But most people thought, oh, well, it couldn't be him.
He's just a buff.
Yeah, he's just a buff.
He goes to all these conferences.
And so they kind of took him off the list because they're like, yeah, this is a superstar.
No way.
Around the same time, like you'd asked about the book Rob, this is when John started writing his book, which is called Point of Origin, which is about a fire investigator looking into a string of arsons.
32:22
Man.
So that's going to take this.
Guy's got all kind of like Hero complex.
Yeah.
Narcissist.
Yeah, no shit.
In the book, he writes himself as the hero investigator, right?
But he is also in real life, the villain arsonist.
32:42
And it's crazy to me because there's a lot of parts in the book where he talks about the arsonist and how sick his mentality is and how they're usually losers and a lot of these different things.
He.
32:57
He.
Understands he's completely 100% self aware of exactly who he is, Yes.
He's.
Bipolar.
He's he's got, he's I.
Don't even think it's bipolar, you know?
What I mean is he's playing both sides.
He's playing the villain.
It's and.
Yeah, but at this point, he is fucking smarter than everybody, right?
33:14
Like, and that's what he's getting off on.
He's getting off on the fact that he's doing all these crimes and he's committing these arsons and everything else.
He's aware of it, He's confessing to it and he holds the power because nobody else fucking knows but him.
So this is soothing his narcissistic tendencies.
I I think and approach and perspective.
33:30
That's interesting.
Interesting, right?
He's fucking crazy to know that you are sick and something's wrong with you.
And he knows too, that this other person is the good guy.
He knows who the good guy in the villain is, which is crazy to me because I would think the.
Same fucking person.
33:46
Exactly.
Most people that commit, you know, heinous crimes, I think typically are, they can't see past their sickness.
But he had that ability, which was crazy to me.
Absolutely.
Aware of it, yeah.
And that's the part where the book was so interesting to me because you typically don't get this kind of a look into people's minds that are this sick.
34:08
So, yeah, so the book, right, I, I have to start with this.
It's disgusting.
Take away the fact the book's about him and he's an arsonist and you know these things, most of these things.
Happen and nobody nobody reading this book at this point understands that the author is the the the.
34:23
Correct, no one knows that, which is probably why no one fucking read it, because the book itself.
I bet you people read it now.
Yeah, for sure.
If you take all of that stuff out of the book, it's a shady book.
It's real short.
It's, it's just not that good.
34:39
But, but when you understand what you're actually reading, it's, it changes from a book to almost, like you said, like a manifesto or something.
And it definitely gives it more interest.
So I, you know, I talked a lot with September about, you know, she wanted me to say, hey, tell them not to buy the book because he's a dirtbag and the money goes to him.
34:59
Which is very true, right?
You're supporting it.
Yeah, you're supporting this clown, but the reality is, I hate to say it, it, it adds to the story.
Absolutely.
It really does because you get a look that is into.
His mind.
Yeah, that's, that's just ridiculous.
35:17
So, yeah.
So basically this ended up being a chronicle of his life as an arsonist and a look into the mind of a truly, truly sick individual.
I won't get into every nuance of the book, but I did want to take a few minutes to talk about some of the twisted things that go on in John's head.
35:34
You guys are going to trip out about this because it, it, it takes a whole other turn that to be honest, I I really had no clue about.
My assumption about an arsonist is that they like to watch things burn, and I never thought much past that.
Yeah, I can remember when I was brand new on the job, I worked on engine two.
35:53
It was actually Engines EP 75 back in the day.
They didn't have the whole thing and I was with Hans and Eddie Woodford Steiner.
We were all in a truck and there was a guy that was running around our city that was lighting stuff on fire.
And I guess they had a bead on who this dude was because every time he would light a fire, he would sit there and watch it.
36:15
But he would fucking wet his pants.
He would urinate all over himself.
They ended up catching this motherfucker because it was the only guy in the crowd whose fucking pants were fucking wet.
No way back in the Yeah, it was back in the, I guess late night, like 9697.
Yeah.
36:31
So it was pretty interesting.
Are.
You sure it was urine?
Well, I mean, that's what that's what I was told.
I didn't know my.
Well, that's interesting.
Lands not not far from.
The truth?
That is a Rodic.
So we'll we'll get into that piece of it.
Like it's sexual.
Cool, yes.
Cool.
Smells like carob tree.
36:47
We'll, we'll get into that piece in just literally just a second.
But the things that that pushed him to burn were I'd never even considered were part of an arsonist thought process.
Interesting.
So his primary motive was not actually watching the fire was sexual gratification.
37:06
So he'd masturbate.
So this was all sexual?
Yes, he would get off.
Yes, and we'll talk a little bit about that.
But but you said right, people get gratification.
Yes, completely and so.
I mean when we would get just a lot of firemen would get boners when they got dispatched to fire.
37:23
Sorry, am I wrong?
I can't say I've ever had a boner.
Going come on, not in the true sense of actual biological growth of your penis, but I mean just metaphorically.
It's exciting to get.
On fire, Yeah.
Brain boner for sure.
So for sure.
37:39
So he would describe in the book getting hard while watching fires grow and many times jerked off watching them.
What, as like a third person as the villain in the.
Book no in in his book I have to assume that's real life for him, because where else would you?
37:55
Come up with that.
Come up with that.
So yes, Rob, yes, Lance, this guy, this guy's jerking off basically, you know, to the fires for.
Sure to the fires, he's just spanking his.
So, and just to kind of give you an idea of, I got a number of excerpts here from his book to give you guys an idea of exactly what's going on in this guy's head.
38:16
So these are quotes.
This is these are quotes from the book, right?
So I'm about to it's it's.
And again, just to recap, he's writing this book as he's still.
Lighting.
This shit on fire Yes I.
Don't think you retire from arsonism.
38:32
Yeah, it's just.
Yeah, he's most certainly not retired.
Right and the same thing with like serial.
Murders yes wow so so here's this is a this is a little lengthy but bear with me OK so more engines speed by and Aaron who Aaron is the arsonist in the book and Aaron is AI want to say he made him an LAFD so.
38:59
This is the fictitious character.
Yeah, it's a fictitious.
Character slash personality that Johnny Orr created for himself.
Yeah, so he's Aaron, right in the arsonist context, and he's a pretty new firefighter on the job.
More engines speed by and Aaron's excitement increased.
39:17
Aaron took a long swallow from his beer and sat back to watch the fire.
His arousal quickly overcame him as he saw the tips of the flames reached the top of the Canyon.
He finished the first beer and threw the empty can to the passenger floorboard.
His hands now free, he rubbed his erection.
39:38
Hold on.
So he's sitting there in his car watching these things burn, drinking a drain like having a beer.
Yeah.
And then just.
Puts his beer down and grabbing one out dude.
Little handful of cake.
If he had a mic, he could do a podcast.
There you go.
Yeah.
Wow.
So, hands now free, he rubbed his erection and closed his legs tightly together.
39:58
He found his tight pants too confining and reached down to lower his zipper.
Still not providing enough release, he unbuckled his belt and reached down to slide his seat.
I'm uncomfortable and he's watching the firefighters, like, fight a fire.
40:14
Fires burning.
Yep, he's getting off on this.
Yep, he's pulling his pants down.
He's pulling his pants.
Comfortable with himself, getting comfortable moving from foreplay into the real deal.
Got a got a buzz going.
Yeah, got a little buzz going.
Get your motor.
A little drunk driving get.
Out on the highway, Yeah.
40:32
Rubbing my erection.
Wow.
So he sighed as he spread his legs apart and reached inside his underwear to grasp himself, seeing a sheet of flame explode from another slope in the.
40:47
Canyon It's not the only thing exploding.
He began to stroke himself wildly while glancing around the lot.
More sirens approached and added to his excitement.
I'm definitely not mature enough.
There's a lot of adjectives in there.
So that's an excerpt from his book that, to me, gives you an idea of why this guy's starting fires.
41:07
Arsonist.
Penthouse Forum.
Dude, could you imagine the, the selfishness of that?
You know you want to jerk off, so you, you ruin someone's life.
You know whether you kill him or not, you know you're burning someone's business down so you can get off.
This one was actually like a wildland fire.
It was the grasslands over or whatever of California.
41:25
So this was not this is oh, from his book.
He's talking about burning like.
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of his fires were just like vacant lots and stuff like that.
So with a lot of, you know, fire load, so grass.
But this the Olay fire, what was the other the the?
41:42
Olis Fire.
The Olis fire was this is year.
The Olis fire that he killed those people was years before yes, and he got a he basically killed 4 people and never been caught.
Yes.
So he's a fucking murderer at this point.
Yes, and still obsessed with this.
Yeah, and we'll talk about that too, about the murder and what that means to him.
41:59
So here's another excerpt, right, John?
The deaths that you talked about, he could care less that his fires caused multiple deaths.
And I gave you an excerpt of the book to kind of give you an idea.
So he's talking right now about the oldies fire.
He says there was never a follow up investigation.
42:17
The fire was ineptly termed accidental.
Aaron was so furious that he set a nearly identical fire four days later in Hollywood.
The investigation agency termed the fire arson, but no correlation was made to the Cals fire.
42:32
So the Cals fire is ollies.
OK, the OK.
It's in the book though.
He calls it cals OK and kind of funny so he's.
Renaming everything.
Yeah, but isn't it kind of funny?
You know, Ollies keeping the details but just renamed Ole Apostrophe S Ollies Cals Cal Apostrophe S.
42:51
So he's methodical as.
Fuck yeah.
Oh.
Yeah, and then he's pissed because that never got determined to be an arson fire.
Yes.
So he goes and sets the same identical fire.
Did anybody die in that fire?
No, it's funny though, he says.
The ineptness like these fucking idiots or.
43:07
They haven't even got me.
Yeah, they can't figure out.
Yep, exactly.
What a piece of shit.
Aaron wanted the Cows fire to be arson.
He loved the inadvertent attention he derived from the newspaper coverage and hated it when he wasn't properly recognized.
43:23
This is him writing in the book.
Correct.
He he wanted to be recognized, right?
That was part of it.
There was a sexual aspect and then the recognition wreck recognition aspect.
So like I said, he hated it when he wasn't properly recognized.
The deaths were blotted out of his mind.
43:39
It wasn't his fault, just stupid people acting as stupid people do.
Yeah, that's justification right there.
So.
But I hate to say it.
Yeah, I'm sure that that little boy that died at two years old.
Really.
Yeah, fuck this bro.
Exactly.
So we talked about this a little bit earlier, but John knew he was a sick person.
43:59
Here's another excerpt from the book.
The serial murderer is much more aggressive, of course, and has the capacity to relate to people better than the serial arsonist.
The serial arsonist cannot relate well to people on most levels and prefers no regular human contact.
44:16
Arsonists are typically loners and losers like serial murderers, but the arsonist sneaks around behind people's backs to do his crimes.
His thrills come by the indirect attention and human contact he gets after the fire is set.
44:33
He blends in with the crowd and basks in the activity he has created.
That's fucking narcissism.
So for sure.
How sick is that?
Yeah, fucked.
He describes himself as a loner and a loser.
OK, well, he's right.
Yeah, well, no doubt.
But again, again, he knows.
44:49
Self aware.
Yeah, yeah, he knows who he is.
So here's where it gets a little sicker.
Oh, great.
And, and honestly, it makes me wonder too, because a lot of the things that he did, we don't know because he doesn't, he doesn't accept responsibility for any of this stuff.
45:06
So some of the things he writes about, I wonder, you know, did these things actually happen and he just didn't get caught for it?
So John fantasized about rape and association to his fires.
No, he's an angry dude.
Oh yeah, so here's a net three times.
I know shit.
45:21
Why does mom leave for three years and come back?
Was she getting like where was the dad?
Like what happened?
There was some.
That probably plays a part in some way.
I'm sure.
I mean, there's, there's more to the story than we know.
Have they they have any like interviews with this dude?
Did you see any?
45:36
Finding he does do some interviews but again he denies it so.
He denies what?
All of it, he says.
He's not the guy.
Oh.
OK, right, exactly.
So here's an excerpt in his book about the fantasies he has about rape.
45:53
OK, she's babysitting, thought Aaron.
No adults around.
Without thinking, he slipped out of his car and walked to the apartment stairs leading to the balcony.
He glanced down the street and saw that the onlookers congregated at the corner.
He checked the teenager out and was aroused by her vulnerability.
46:13
His fire had excited him almost to the point of orgasm.
He debated forcing his way into the apartment and was astonished at himself when he found that he had had his pistol in his pocket.
He decided to go through with it so.
Hold on.
He lit a fire.
46:29
He had lit a.
Fire Burnin.
He's all rocked up ready to go.
Notice he's got a gun.
He's like, now I'm going to go rape a check.
Throw some rape in there.
Yes.
And so to give you a little more context into it, in the book he had started a fire at a 711.
46:45
Oh wait, this is what he's writing in the book.
Yes.
So we don't even know if this is.
No, this, this at this point is just fiction, right?
Because there's never been.
Do we know?
And that's what I'm saying, you know, cuz he very well could have raped someone that just never.
Reported.
It was reported not associated right?
47:01
Interesting.
So in the book This Girl he started a small fire at a 711 that got put out but he noticed this girl while he was there and even hit on her and tried to say something to.
Her he had once married a girl from 7:11 if you remember.
Yeah, true, true.
47:18
And so he kind of like stalks her and figures out where she lives.
The investigator in the book found out there was an arson fire there and went to investigate.
He got video footage of the arsonist leaving.
And he also had a witness, which was her.
47:34
And so in the book, in the book, yes, it's.
In an odd coincidence that years and years before he worked at a 711, I wonder if he that he's writing about things he.
Did it wouldn't shock me.
Past tense?
Yeah, it wouldn't shock me.
He'll never know because he won't admit to it.
47:50
Correct.
And so that's what how the girl comes into play.
He stalks her.
He ends up going into her apartment pretending to be a cop.
She lets him in because she's thinking, oh, they're just coming to interview me more about this fire.
Long story short, he rapes her.
48:07
Well actually let me take that back.
He tries to rape her.
He ties her up to like the kitchen sink area, like the the piping underneath the kitchen sink.
He ties her up to that, pulls her pants down and before he can he busts a nut out on her thighs.
48:28
This is in the book.
Those are those are oddly specific.
Very specific I wouldn't.
Put in a book, unless it actually.
It actually fucking happened.
Yeah, right.
What the?
Fuck yeah.
And so this is what I'm saying about there's different.
Levels of hell that exist and I'm pretty sure he's at the fucking lowest.
48:47
Lowest fucking level, yes.
What a piece of shit.
Wow.
And so, like I was saying, I hate to tell people to read the book because he's a scumbag.
Yeah, But on the other hand or.
You just listen to this podcast.
Yeah, exactly.
Some of the stories like this rape one, I only gave you just a little touch of what he had to say about the rape.
49:10
But the truth is like that.
Oh.
So here's the other interesting.
Name anybody?
Like did he name or describe?
No.
So for instance, with the rape, right.
So he, he is Aaron, he's the bad guy, but he is also the investigator and the investigator gets word that this girl's been raped.
49:27
He goes to the hospital to talk with her and find but.
I'm a little confused because tell me if I'm overthinking this.
So this bro is right in the book.
He's Aaron.
He's all boned up because he lit this fire.
He's got a gun in his pocket.
He's like, hey, I'm going to rope rape a chick now.
So he goes in, acts like a cop, goes in there, chains her up, goes to rape her.
49:47
But then he thinks that he he's the same person.
So he is the investors going to the hospital.
That doesn't really make sense because it's the same person, no.
No, no.
So Aaron is the arsonist, right?
Correct.
But but John in real life is both of those people.
50:02
That's what I'm saying, yeah.
He's.
So.
Like, hey, I raped you, but now I'm the investigator.
Can you tell me?
What happened?
Well, that's what I'm saying is the crazy part about this, right?
Because he rapes her.
He starts the place on fire, tries to kill her.
She doesn't get killed, ends up in the hospital.
50:17
The investigator goes to the hospital to interview her and he talks about how disgusting this person is that did this and what a piece of shit they are.
The part that intrigues me is like, not only does he know who he is, he knows that that is just a despicable thing that he's talking about and doing.
50:39
He also knows what the right person does in that situation and how they treat that person.
So it it's just really weird to me how he separates those two things.
But then he can at will jump in between heats to serve.
50:54
Wow.
That is a special kind of fucking crazy.
That's.
The most kind of crazy, that's the most kind of evil when you, there's something that you're doing that you know is, is wrong and you do it anyway.
Yeah, there's sick.
There's sick people out there that probably don't know what they're doing is wrong.
You know what I mean?
To us, we know what's wrong because we're, you know, obviously the best people on Earth, right?
51:15
Clearly.
Clearly, but I'm sure there is, there's people out there who have no perception of reality and you know, the things that they do like, like, you know, we see guys all the time just across the street not even looking either way.
And they just clueless.
Clueless and oblivious that there's anybody else in the world but this guy.
He'd that's like first degree type murders.
51:32
Oh yeah, you know what I mean?
Yeah, he knew exactly what who he is.
Without a doubt, without a doubt.
What, yeah, sick is he trying to achieve for himself?
So the summary of the book, this is one sick fuck, yeah.
He he's exclamation point.
51:49
Exclamation point.
So, you know, again, the book it, it changes this thing because the truth is one without the other, the arson without the book and the book without the arson are both kind of garbage.
You don't think much about them.
52:05
But when you put the two together, you really got something interesting because you're getting a rare, rare look into a really fucking sick person.
It's amazing to me how shit like this can kind of like, unfold itself and it goes unseen for so long.
52:21
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah, unbelievable.
So that's what I was saying when I thought you you brought this up to do as a podcast.
And I thought, I mean, it's interesting to us because we're in the fire service, but at that, it's not that interesting until the book piece of it came into play.
And then I'm like, oh man, this is crazy.
52:38
Well, sounds like to me too.
If you look through the what is it the Federal Fire Administration?
What do we call that?
The the big where all the rules come down from?
What's the term?
For the OSHA.
Ayusha, the Federal Fire Administration.
52:53
Oh, the NFPA.
The NFPA, all that, if you look and you can Google it.
Like what?
When they psychologically profile arsonists?
He's just check mark, check mark, check mark, check mark.
But him being an investigator, probably part of those conferences and training he's had is they look for those profiles.
53:11
So part of this Aaron character they created.
He's painting this picture to fit that profile.
Yeah.
I just wonder if he himself knew the separation or he was so delusional that he didn't even realize that he was writing about himself.
53:26
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good question.
Like, he thinks he's writing this fiction book, but it's like.
I mean, that's very.
It's hard to take a sane persons logic and put it to a crazy person, you know?
But but I don't think you can say that that's not a possibility.
53:43
You know, without a doubt.
I forgot to tell you too, that the Olie's fire that killed the four people.
Yeah.
One of the things that got him was he wrote in the book about Aaron lit this Cal's fire and a 2 year old died 4 people.
53:58
So there.
Was a correlation there were there.
OK, so the book that he wrote, there was facts.
Four people, a 2 year old kid, but.
Still with the fictitious name with.
Fictitious names, OK.
And one of the things he said though is that the mom or the grandma was a grandmother with a 2 year old kid, right?
54:15
And she had taken the kid to get ice cream.
Mint chocolate chip ice cream is what he said in the book.
Which is true, but the only.
They know.
That because he was there when he was starting the fire, when he was walking around in the aisles, he heard the grandma talking to the kid saying we'll get you your mint chocolate chip ice cream.
54:36
He put it in the book.
He put it in the book.
He put it in the book.
Then he later also said, did he admit to any of.
This.
No, none of it.
But the reason they know is because, yes, that was true.
They took the kid there for mint chocolate chip ice cream and they knew that because of the grandfather.
54:52
So there was some, yeah.
So there's some.
Correct.
So they know, and so he could not know that unless.
He was.
He was actually, yeah.
Yeah.
And he he tries to say, oh, that's just complete coincidence.
Coincidence that I said mint chocolate chip so.
This is a prosecutor's dream landing upon this book, and they started correlating.
55:09
To Oh, without a doubt about that, without a doubt, it all happened.
So what did happen with this guy?
Luckily, the book would be a piece of him spending the rest of his life in prison.
A task force was assembled by the ATF.
They were able to identify that fingerprint that we talked about, that partial fingerprint on a piece of notebook paper he had attached to an incendiary device.
55:31
John was placed under surveillance at that point.
So here's the crazy thing, though, and this is one of the things that he fought, that print that he had is a partial print.
And they compared it to him early on in this investigation and ruled him out.
Really.
Yeah, because it wasn't.
55:47
They just said, hey, it's not enough to say for sure.
And the investigators thought, hey, it's possible that he was there and investigated.
So it's possible he just touched something, you know, and so they kind of just wrote it off because at that time they're thinking, oh, he's, you know, a superhero investigator.
56:02
But once they actually started going, hey, we think it might be him, they went back and re looked at it and go, oh shit, that is his fingerprint.
But you know, as he talks about him not being the guy, he says all this is bullshit.
They framed me.
You know, that's that's what his argument is, right for what?
56:20
To catch someone.
And so they start the surveillance tracking devices are placed on John's car.
This is kind of funny.
One of the devices was poorly placed and it basically like wherever they put it kind of fell out.
And so John finds it and is like, what the fuck is this?
56:37
You know, luckily he doesn't recognize it as a tracking device.
And so he's like, whatever, takes it out and keeps going on about his business.
Luckily there were multiple devices in his car.
And so whoever fucking put that device from the ATF needs to get shit canned.
56:55
They don't even know how to spell ATF.
Yeah, Johnson.
Do you have any bubble gum?
I got to put this device.
Yeah, what about some duct tape?
So on December 4th, 1991, John was arrested outside of his house and charged with five counts of arson.
Oh boy.
He was tried in 1992 and found guilty of three of the five counts of arson.
57:15
He received 10 years per count.
Lance.
That adds up to 30.
Hold on, let me take my shoes off.
Fast forward two years, because this thing took a long time, he would plead guilty to an additional 3 accounts of arson.
57:30
So although he never admitted to the fire, technically he never if if he was interviewed today in prison, he'll say I didn't do it.
He accepted plea deals to keep himself from the death penalty.
That said, I confess I did these things.
So in 1994 he was indicted on 4 counts of murder.
57:50
The victims of the Olis fire in 1998.
So look at we're going in from 1991, he's arrested.
We're in 1998 he's found guilty of the murder indictments, four of them.
He received 4 concurrent life sentences without the possibility of parole.
58:09
Oh fuck.
Is he still alive?
He is still.
Alive.
I like how at the beginning of this you you correlated his life story and that we could relate because we're in the same field.
You're saying we're losers?
Yeah, we're losers and loners.
Wow, you may not be wrong.
58:24
Yeah.
So you're not.
A loser.
Yeah, so anyway, super interesting story I thought, and the book, like I said, really makes it a rare crime.
Is that book still available for sale?
The.
I mean which one the inferno book?
58:41
The one that the.
Point of origin.
Yeah, absolutely.
And he actually wrote a second book called like Points of Truth or Something from Prison.
Yeah, where he talks about how basically effed up things are and how he's not the guy.
But I didn't read that book.
Dude, just delusion keeps going, man.
58:57
Yeah, you know where you admitted to it?
What do you mean you're not the guy?
Yeah, he's the guy, without a doubt.
Well, absolutely.
What a great story either way.
Yeah, speechless.
Well, listen, it's been a way too long dinner.
We got cleaning to do.
Yeah.
59:13
Yeah, so Lancer Junior, you got mop duty, you got dish duty.
I'm going to, I'm going to sit in the recliner.
So again, thanks everyone for tuning in.
This is 72 House, dinner at the Deuce.
Signing off, signing off.
Bingo.
59:29
All right, questions, comments.
E-mail us at 72 House, podcast@gmail.com or follow us on Instagram at 72 House under SCORE Media.

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