WEBVTT 00:00:02.939 --> 00:00:04.230 Well, good day everyone. 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:07.129 Welcome again to Can Gardens Community Church podcast. 00:00:07.129 --> 00:00:08.089 My name is Shibu. 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:12.650 I have the joy of serving as one of the pastors at Can Gardens, a church in the outer east of Melbourne. 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:23.359 Our desire is to continue to be a church that wants to make much of Jesus, to encourage people to follow Jesus and to, I guess, disciple people to live for Jesus in this world. 00:00:23.570 --> 00:00:27.760 And recently at Canterbury, we ran a seminar, in regards to. 00:00:28.269 --> 00:00:32.500 Really thinking about how we look and read scripture through different lenses. 00:00:32.500 --> 00:00:37.210 In particular, it was presented by our associate Pastor Cameron, per who's here with us. 00:00:37.210 --> 00:00:42.179 And part of that we asked people Send some questions in and we're gonna do our best to answer some of them. 00:00:42.299 --> 00:00:43.320 Uh, we'll see how we go. 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:45.780 And so today I've got, uh. 00:00:46.545 --> 00:00:46.875 Cam. 00:00:46.875 --> 00:00:47.145 Good day. 00:00:47.145 --> 00:00:47.475 Cam. 00:00:47.804 --> 00:00:48.134 Good day. 00:00:48.674 --> 00:00:49.454 Good to see you. 00:00:49.454 --> 00:00:51.134 And also Mark. 00:00:51.134 --> 00:00:51.825 Good day, mark. 00:00:52.304 --> 00:00:52.484 Good day. 00:00:52.484 --> 00:00:52.905 Shas. 00:00:52.905 --> 00:00:53.445 Good to be here. 00:00:53.594 --> 00:00:53.984 Good. 00:00:53.984 --> 00:00:58.304 And so Mark serves on our leadership team here at, at the church. 00:00:58.304 --> 00:01:01.445 Thank you firstly for those of you who came to the seminar. 00:01:01.445 --> 00:01:06.055 Secondly, who took the time to send those,, questions and some statements as well. 00:01:06.579 --> 00:01:08.500 The question I was gonna ask is. 00:01:09.370 --> 00:01:14.409 In the context of the seminar cam, maybe why don't we start with what was bit of the summary? 00:01:14.500 --> 00:01:19.939 If you could, summarize what your presentation was about, not your presentation, what you're presenting for us. 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:20.659 Yeah. 00:01:20.659 --> 00:01:27.920 Well I think, I mean maybe it's helpful just to start with why I thought it might be a good idea to, to, to, to go through it. 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:31.459 I think for me, I dunno, there's two, two ways you can kind of approach. 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:37.459 Maybe two Kong ways you can approach difficult topics in, in Christian theology. 00:01:37.459 --> 00:01:39.290 Particularly on things we disagree on. 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:44.180 One is to kind of avoid it altogether, and just, hope that you don't end up having a conversation with someone. 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:45.859 I actually don't think that's helpful. 00:01:46.049 --> 00:01:51.359 I think that often leads to, to misunderstanding one another or to think that you maybe know what. 00:01:51.870 --> 00:01:57.750 Someone thinks, um,'cause you've heard someone say something on YouTube or whatever, uh, and you don't ever actually learn. 00:01:57.810 --> 00:02:08.219 Um, and, and all the other approaches to actually, you know, to tackle it head on and to, um, to be able to, um, better understand one another and where we might be coming from. 00:02:08.219 --> 00:02:18.599 So in, in my view, when a lot of time when people are talked about this particular topic, um, um, uh. 00:02:19.169 --> 00:02:25.139 People often make comments in passing that just led to misunderstanding rather than to good conversation. 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:33.689 Um, or from my experience all of the time, um, people just weren't aware that there were other views on this topic. 00:02:33.810 --> 00:02:48.250 Uh, and so I think my heart really was to kind of, To go through these topics to give people a, a better understanding of scripture, a better understanding of, of where one another it might be coming from, for the sake of actually having better conversations. 00:02:48.250 --> 00:02:51.009 So, so it, yeah, that, that's really my hope. 00:02:51.014 --> 00:02:56.949 I, I think, I think we grow through just discussing scripture, scripture together through wrestling with it together. 00:02:57.110 --> 00:02:59.009 And, and I think. 00:02:59.694 --> 00:03:02.965 Better awareness of, of different ideas is, is actually helpful in that. 00:03:03.104 --> 00:03:05.175 And so, so that was really my heart. 00:03:05.175 --> 00:03:19.474 And I mean, if you're looking at the topic itself, uh, the, the very brief summary is, is, you know, dispensationalism is a particular view, that's come about that highlights a, a distinction between Israel and the church. 00:03:19.634 --> 00:03:25.694 So Israel, they would say, refers to kind of the national territorial ethnic people. 00:03:26.175 --> 00:03:29.685 Um, so whenever you see Israel, that's who it refers to. 00:03:30.194 --> 00:03:31.965 And then the church is distinct. 00:03:31.995 --> 00:03:34.455 So the church began in acts, acts, two. 00:03:34.965 --> 00:03:40.905 And, and so Dispensational really wants to highlight that, that Israel is an ethnic national territory. 00:03:40.905 --> 00:03:45.485 People still as a future, particularly in the millennium, they'll receive outstanding promises. 00:03:45.895 --> 00:03:47.379 So they wanna highlight that whereas. 00:03:47.935 --> 00:03:49.824 Covenant theology and its variations. 00:03:49.824 --> 00:03:51.925 So we talked about variations on both sides. 00:03:52.014 --> 00:03:56.194 I'm not gonna, go into the full training again here, but there's, variations on both sides. 00:03:56.194 --> 00:04:02.314 But, covenant theology in general wants to highlight that, that, Christ has fulfilled Israel. 00:04:02.314 --> 00:04:03.875 He's, he's true Israel. 00:04:04.155 --> 00:04:10.745 And then the church being united to him, are the new Israel or, in their relationship to, to Christ. 00:04:10.745 --> 00:04:12.944 And so, so they wouldn't say that there's. 00:04:13.784 --> 00:04:18.855 There's future promises for national territorial ethnic people, but they're for the church. 00:04:18.995 --> 00:04:24.754 So that's very brief summary of, of the kind of the core difference between those views. 00:04:24.814 --> 00:04:25.714 Can I just jump in? 00:04:25.714 --> 00:04:26.160 Jump in, jump. 00:04:26.165 --> 00:04:30.875 I think when you say the church, you mean the church incorporating both Jew and Gentile? 00:04:31.115 --> 00:04:31.295 Yes. 00:04:31.295 --> 00:04:34.055 Not the church as opposed to Jews. 00:04:34.115 --> 00:04:34.504 That's right. 00:04:34.564 --> 00:04:35.254 Yes, that's right. 00:04:35.345 --> 00:04:38.824 But, but all who have become one in Christ Jesus. 00:04:38.824 --> 00:04:39.245 Yes. 00:04:39.245 --> 00:04:39.574 That's it. 00:04:39.665 --> 00:04:40.295 Yep, that's right. 00:04:40.295 --> 00:04:40.654 Thanks Mark. 00:04:40.654 --> 00:04:40.834 Good. 00:04:41.435 --> 00:04:46.444 Uh, and we we're gonna have the, uh, a link to the actual presentation in the show notes. 00:04:46.475 --> 00:04:46.595 Yep. 00:04:46.595 --> 00:04:58.625 So if you wanna dive deeper in, well, with that in mind, and thanks for that summary, cam, one of the questions that came in was, is looking at these views on the Old Testament, new Testament and groups or camps, helpful? 00:04:59.225 --> 00:05:02.285 Or is it better to discern these things together without these. 00:05:02.824 --> 00:05:10.204 Perform pre performed ideas, which then leads into, you know, um, there seems to be, be some problems with both sides. 00:05:10.204 --> 00:05:12.334 Is it possible to adopt a bit of both? 00:05:12.334 --> 00:05:16.985 And then there was one of my favorite questions, uh, was can we just sit on the fence mm-hmm. 00:05:16.985 --> 00:05:17.584 On this? 00:05:17.644 --> 00:05:17.944 Yes. 00:05:17.944 --> 00:05:18.185 Yeah. 00:05:18.245 --> 00:05:19.204 Love to hear your thoughts, 00:05:19.204 --> 00:05:19.595 guys. 00:05:20.555 --> 00:05:21.154 Yeah, I like that. 00:05:21.154 --> 00:05:22.774 Is there a comfortable fence to sit on? 00:05:22.774 --> 00:05:27.365 I don't know if there are many comfortable fences, but, yeah, I think I've spoken to a few about this. 00:05:27.875 --> 00:05:32.074 The value of systems, um, whether they're helpful or not. 00:05:32.495 --> 00:05:36.334 I mean, mark, feel free to push back on this. 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.795 I, I probably think systems can't be avoided. 00:05:39.035 --> 00:05:44.285 I think anytime, anytime, you know, for example, someone asks you what is sin? 00:05:44.345 --> 00:05:48.605 Then you have to systematize or summarize what the Bible is saying. 00:05:48.605 --> 00:05:50.824 You, you're probably not gonna be able to give a full. 00:05:51.644 --> 00:05:54.615 Biblical theology of sin in the space of that answer. 00:05:54.615 --> 00:05:57.314 And so I think systems can't really be avoided. 00:05:57.615 --> 00:06:07.814 I think, uh, hopefully, you know, with all of these systems they're trying to argue from scripture as, as the one that informs the systems. 00:06:08.295 --> 00:06:12.524 So I, I kind of, I get why I understand where those questions are coming from. 00:06:12.524 --> 00:06:16.375 I understand as well the, the hesitancy towards systems. 00:06:16.795 --> 00:06:23.064 And I think that hesitancy probably comes from, it can feel at times that systems can impose themselves on scripture. 00:06:23.064 --> 00:06:23.154 Mm-hmm. 00:06:23.185 --> 00:06:24.175 Which I think is true. 00:06:24.175 --> 00:06:24.295 Mm-hmm. 00:06:24.295 --> 00:06:26.004 And that's the danger of any system. 00:06:26.154 --> 00:06:26.305 Mm-hmm. 00:06:26.334 --> 00:06:33.625 Any of the systems that I presented on that day, I would say there's people who can impose that system on scripture too much. 00:06:33.714 --> 00:06:33.894 Mm-hmm. 00:06:34.074 --> 00:06:38.904 Um, so I don't, I don't necessarily agree that systems are dangerous in themselves. 00:06:38.904 --> 00:06:56.485 I just think we just have to have the assumption that systems just always need to keep being, Uh, tested by scripture and so we shouldn't have ever such a hold tight hold on our system that, that, um, that it can't be, you know, uh, changed or, or modified or whatever. 00:06:56.545 --> 00:07:00.235 As we see scripture talk about it and probably as well. 00:07:00.745 --> 00:07:04.795 I mean, I'll be honest, I find systems helpful in presenting, in terms of teaching. 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:05.060 Mm-hmm. 00:07:05.314 --> 00:07:07.725 So that's more while I did it, than anything else. 00:07:07.754 --> 00:07:15.375 'cause I think for clarity's sake, sometimes speaking about systems and a lot of the major books on these topics are dividing it up into systems as well. 00:07:15.375 --> 00:07:20.834 And so for me it was more teaching tool rather than saying you need to fit into this specific category or whatever. 00:07:21.165 --> 00:07:22.154 For me, I just found it helpful. 00:07:22.185 --> 00:07:23.985 You could definitely do it in a different way. 00:07:24.074 --> 00:07:24.165 Mm-hmm. 00:07:24.795 --> 00:07:30.134 You could, you could kind of, Work more from scripture up and, and not mention the, the, the systems at all. 00:07:30.134 --> 00:07:33.404 But I, again, I, I probably found that more difficult to think of how to do it. 00:07:33.524 --> 00:07:37.035 Maybe that's just a limit in my ability to, to know how to do that. 00:07:37.035 --> 00:07:38.024 But, um, yeah. 00:07:38.024 --> 00:07:40.064 But, but my purpose was simply for clarity. 00:07:40.214 --> 00:07:40.454 Yeah. 00:07:40.504 --> 00:07:41.464 In, in these things. 00:07:41.615 --> 00:07:41.795 I dunno. 00:07:41.795 --> 00:07:43.355 Mark, do you have any comments on that? 00:07:44.014 --> 00:07:52.204 Well, I think that's a good summary and to give an example, going to the world of science, science, is really not able to be. 00:07:52.954 --> 00:07:55.985 Communicated unless we communicate in terms of theories. 00:07:56.014 --> 00:08:00.634 Look, this is our working theory on how biology works. 00:08:00.634 --> 00:08:02.615 Cell biology or, or chemistry, whatever. 00:08:03.064 --> 00:08:17.944 We have a working theory, but the moment we turn it into a rigid unbinding unending rule, uh, suddenly it's betrayed science itself, which is to have a working theory to help us understand and for that to be continually developed, which is what Cam said. 00:08:18.274 --> 00:08:18.425 Mm-hmm. 00:08:18.785 --> 00:08:21.185 Um, but scientism. 00:08:22.264 --> 00:08:27.964 Is, uh, is when science becomes such a rigid system that says, you know what? 00:08:27.964 --> 00:08:31.115 We don't care about anything that falls outside our system. 00:08:31.504 --> 00:08:41.615 And if we can't answer it within our theory, we're gonna keep our theory and reject anything that falls outside and we can fall into that same danger with theology. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:47.794 But as Cam said, if we keep subjecting it to the scriptures to be revised, then we can get somewhere. 00:08:48.274 --> 00:08:48.514 Hmm. 00:08:49.250 --> 00:08:56.929 The second thing I wanna say about systems is what we're talking about here isn't simply systematic theology, but is the covenant. 00:08:57.350 --> 00:09:05.179 And both views agree that the covenant is a system that God has designed to help us to understand things. 00:09:05.450 --> 00:09:15.950 So in that sense, we can't avoid talking about systems because here in the Kingdom idea and in the covenant idea is the very system that God has given us to understand. 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:18.679 How we interact with him and with each other. 00:09:21.019 --> 00:09:29.299 No, I was just gonna say that maybe I think that's helpful because in some ways this topic is combining systematic theology and biblical theology. 00:09:29.299 --> 00:09:36.740 'cause it's trying to piece together God's story, um, in a way that makes sense of all the scripture, because that's really what these systems are trying to do. 00:09:36.740 --> 00:09:41.360 So it is a task in both biblical theology and atic theology. 00:09:41.450 --> 00:09:43.279 Um, which is, yeah, which is good. 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:45.110 I think those two should work together anyway. 00:09:45.710 --> 00:09:45.769 Yeah. 00:09:46.985 --> 00:09:48.394 You guys mentioned two things. 00:09:48.394 --> 00:09:52.715 One, one that just kept, I'm not sure if it's in the questions here, but you mentioned the words covenant. 00:09:54.184 --> 00:10:02.345 For those who are new to listening in or not fully get their heads around it yet, um, what, what, what is that? 00:10:02.794 --> 00:10:04.174 Um, what does that mean? 00:10:04.235 --> 00:10:06.365 Uh, particularly in regards to reading scripture. 00:10:06.585 --> 00:10:10.184 Not necessarily going into all the details of the types of covenants, 00:10:10.264 --> 00:10:10.715 covenant. 00:10:11.585 --> 00:10:15.995 Now you referred to Gentian Willem's book, kingdom Through Covenant. 00:10:16.445 --> 00:10:19.894 We've got a definition in there from Hugin Berger. 00:10:20.375 --> 00:10:30.725 Um, a covenant in its normal sense is an elected, that's a chosen relationship of obligation under oath. 00:10:32.195 --> 00:10:34.804 It's a chosen relationship of obligation under oath. 00:10:34.809 --> 00:10:37.804 That's a bit of a mouthful, but what it means is it's not natural relationships. 00:10:38.269 --> 00:10:40.039 It's not human relatives. 00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:43.190 We're father, son, brother, and sister, just by birth. 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:57.080 Nothing needs to be formalized there, but this is something that's opted into and in God's world, he chooses a relationship with us and he asks us to choose a relationship with him, but then it's bound together and there's obligations that come because of the promises made. 00:10:57.409 --> 00:11:01.100 God promises to be faithful to us, and we promise to be faithful to him. 00:11:01.669 --> 00:11:05.419 So it's chosen, it's a relationship, and it's formalized. 00:11:06.125 --> 00:11:13.235 That's is where the covenant comes, is it's formalized in a contract or a oaths and promises in a similar way to marriages. 00:11:13.865 --> 00:11:14.284 Does that help? 00:11:14.434 --> 00:11:14.615 Yep. 00:11:14.914 --> 00:11:15.245 That's good. 00:11:16.085 --> 00:11:24.575 Well, there's one of the questions that was in there was how does the new covenant slash creation interact with the already not yet eschatology. 00:11:24.605 --> 00:11:30.095 It's a lot, big words there, and reconcile the church's reality with promises to ethnic Israel. 00:11:33.544 --> 00:11:33.815 I don't know. 00:11:33.815 --> 00:11:36.184 Mark, do you wanna start us off on that one still? 00:11:36.184 --> 00:11:37.144 No, I'm lost already. 00:11:37.144 --> 00:11:38.105 I'll have to listen to it again. 00:11:38.105 --> 00:11:40.115 Or can you summarize the question in different words? 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:40.159 I can. 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:40.235 I can 00:11:40.235 --> 00:11:40.894 say the question again. 00:11:40.894 --> 00:11:41.315 That's okay. 00:11:41.315 --> 00:11:51.514 How does the new covenant creation interact with the, already not yet eschatology and reconcile the church reality with the promise promises to ethnic Israel? 00:11:52.745 --> 00:11:53.075 I mean, 00:11:53.134 --> 00:11:55.715 I think depends on your position, right? 00:11:56.164 --> 00:11:56.855 Yeah, that's right. 00:11:56.945 --> 00:11:59.654 I think, I think that question, again, it talks about. 00:12:00.450 --> 00:12:03.419 Reconciling the church's reality with promises to ethnic Israel. 00:12:03.419 --> 00:12:15.159 So if you're on the covenant theology side, then side of things, then you don't, you, you would say the church is receiving promises, that were originally given to ethnic national Israel. 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:17.710 So in some ways that's a simple answer. 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.630 The covenant theology, if you're not in that kind of covenant theology side of things mm-hmm. 00:12:22.779 --> 00:12:26.049 You think there's a distinction between Israel and the church, then you'll say. 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:28.809 Well, then in the millennium mm-hmm. 00:12:29.379 --> 00:12:31.576 Uh, those promises will, will mm-hmm. 00:12:32.139 --> 00:12:35.919 Be fulfilled to national territorial ethnic Israel. 00:12:36.250 --> 00:12:36.399 Yeah. 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:38.429 So I think, I mean, that's a fairly simple answer. 00:12:38.429 --> 00:12:38.490 Yeah. 00:12:38.490 --> 00:12:45.000 But that's, that's, that's how they would relate to, um, to those promises. 00:12:45.990 --> 00:12:46.230 Yeah. 00:12:46.230 --> 00:12:47.669 Let me just take it a step back. 00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:47.759 Yeah. 00:12:47.789 --> 00:12:48.299 Um. 00:12:48.870 --> 00:12:55.559 For people who are about to switch off'cause they've suddenly heard these theological languages, then think, well, it's not for me. 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:59.190 We've, we've talked about already, not yet eschatology within that question. 00:12:59.250 --> 00:12:59.519 Mm-hmm. 00:13:00.210 --> 00:13:01.769 Um, and new covenant, new creation. 00:13:02.700 --> 00:13:06.750 One thing it's important to remember that, which I didn't describe in the definition of what a covenant is. 00:13:06.750 --> 00:13:07.740 It's that relationship. 00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:10.365 It's bound together by promise and obligation. 00:13:10.904 --> 00:13:12.299 And there are consequences. 00:13:12.330 --> 00:13:14.879 There's blessings and curses that. 00:13:15.809 --> 00:13:21.990 Come as a result of remaining in the covenant, God promises to bless and there's curses for being outside it. 00:13:21.990 --> 00:13:38.220 So one of the thing I think this question is asking is when God promises to make all things new, and this is what eschatology is talking about, in the end, when God restores all things to the way he intended it to be, what will the role of Israel be? 00:13:38.220 --> 00:13:42.779 Israel being physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 00:13:43.470 --> 00:13:54.450 So that's, I just wanted to explain the question a bit more, and as Cam said, it does depend on your view, just what role they play in the new, covenant creation. 00:13:54.809 --> 00:13:55.019 Mm. 00:13:55.139 --> 00:13:55.409 Alright. 00:13:55.789 --> 00:14:05.029 And that's, if we're talking about in the future, one thing that's important to pick up here is this already, not yet eschatology. 00:14:05.029 --> 00:14:06.559 Maybe that's worth talking about as well. 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:07.009 Yeah, that's good. 00:14:07.730 --> 00:14:17.389 I think it's kind of a good place to talk because it's somewhere where progressive dispensationalism and progressive covenantal do by and large agree. 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:28.519 There's still some distinctions about how we apply, but this is a very important concept, which is to say that when Christ has come, he has begun something new. 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:36.799 He has established a new covenant, a new relationship, and promise of blessing, and he has begun a. 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:42.230 Making believers new, putting his law in their hearts to live for him. 00:14:43.850 --> 00:14:57.470 And so what we don't want to do is get too focused on what God will one day do when he finally fixes everything to completion and forget about the wonder of what he has achieved and the significance of what he has achieved now. 00:14:57.559 --> 00:14:57.769 Mm-hmm. 00:14:58.370 --> 00:15:01.340 And that has, that has big practical implications for how we live. 00:15:01.340 --> 00:15:04.434 If we think, um, there's nothing good. 00:15:05.884 --> 00:15:07.264 Nobody says there's nothing good now. 00:15:07.264 --> 00:15:15.485 And as I said, both camps agree on this, but if you go to an extreme, we can end up just looking for a future time and we are quite dissatisfied here and now. 00:15:15.845 --> 00:15:16.445 Mm-hmm. 00:15:16.684 --> 00:15:16.686 Yeah. 00:15:17.465 --> 00:15:19.804 Anything else you wanna say about Uh, not really. 00:15:19.804 --> 00:15:22.414 I think I was just gonna say, just recognizing the similarities. 00:15:22.414 --> 00:15:31.205 I mean, I think that's what I try to do at the end with that kind of how we preach understanding was not to kind of say you, you know, you have to be in this space. 00:15:31.205 --> 00:15:32.450 But just to say that we agree. 00:15:32.884 --> 00:15:40.504 A lot of these positions actually do agree on the kingdom has come in Christ and it's gonna be consummated, it's gonna be brought about, it's gonna be completed in the future. 00:15:40.504 --> 00:15:49.325 And so, um, I think it's important just to highlight that even in, in terms of the way we live, in terms of the way we, think about the world. 00:15:49.325 --> 00:15:55.205 There probably isn't a lot of difference between that progressive ational covenant theology. 00:15:56.705 --> 00:15:56.975 No. 00:15:56.975 --> 00:15:59.315 But perhaps a little bit more of a difference between. 00:15:59.884 --> 00:16:02.554 Classic views Yes. 00:16:02.554 --> 00:16:03.365 Of these sides. 00:16:03.394 --> 00:16:03.544 Yes. 00:16:03.544 --> 00:16:04.294 Classic sides. 00:16:04.355 --> 00:16:05.105 Yes, that's right. 00:16:05.134 --> 00:16:09.845 The classic and revised dispensationalism would say the kingdom hasn't come in Christ. 00:16:09.845 --> 00:16:10.264 So that's mm-hmm. 00:16:10.835 --> 00:16:21.965 Again, that was kind of why I was just giving that guiding principle of, of that already not yet kind of eschatology comes, comes through with more progressive dispensationalism and then the covenant theology 00:16:22.024 --> 00:16:22.445 views. 00:16:22.445 --> 00:16:22.835 Mm-hmm. 00:16:23.570 --> 00:16:23.789 Yep. 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:32.429 We, this probably connects to that, question that we chatted about before we started recording about, well, what's the church's agenda here? 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.279 What's Cannery's heart behind this? 00:16:35.309 --> 00:16:43.649 Because one of the things we want to clearly communicate on as representing the leadership, the purpose of the seminar wasn't now going, Hey. 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:45.090 Which side are you? 00:16:45.090 --> 00:16:48.690 And we'll try to figure out which side we're presenting, what's there. 00:16:49.230 --> 00:16:52.019 Uh, there may be some of us who're still wrestling with, I don't know. 00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:53.700 And that's, that's okay. 00:16:54.269 --> 00:16:57.330 Um, I guess, yeah, what's, what's the heart behind 00:16:59.100 --> 00:16:59.730 why we did it? 00:16:59.850 --> 00:17:02.610 And, and particularly as 00:17:02.610 --> 00:17:05.099 Lord willing, if we reach the revelation next year? 00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:05.849 Hmm. 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.640 Well, I mean, I think, I mean, I kind of already expressed my heart a little bit in terms of. 00:17:12.494 --> 00:17:16.515 Um, you know, it's definitely not that I have some secret agenda. 00:17:16.605 --> 00:17:16.694 Mm-hmm. 00:17:16.934 --> 00:17:19.755 And I, and I don't think anyone in the leadership has a secret agenda about No. 00:17:20.115 --> 00:17:24.894 Bringing in certain, uh, I don't know, a specific theology or anything like that. 00:17:25.345 --> 00:17:29.724 I mean, I, I could speak personally maybe, and then, and then broaden out. 00:17:30.115 --> 00:17:33.144 Personally, I think I. 00:17:34.210 --> 00:17:36.759 I love good faith discussions with other people. 00:17:36.765 --> 00:17:46.849 And, and what I mean by good faith is that we can, we can wrestle with something, we can disagree, we can leave as brothers and or as sisters and we can just, be united in Christ. 00:17:46.849 --> 00:17:54.650 And so I think so, so my heart as a church that we, that we'll be able to model good discussions around scripture. 00:17:55.204 --> 00:17:57.855 And have unity, even in our disagreement. 00:17:58.005 --> 00:18:01.335 'cause I think that heart, I think that lifts up Christ. 00:18:01.365 --> 00:18:08.875 And so, yeah, I think, I think that's, that's a big heart for me in, in just, you know, being able to have better conversations with other people. 00:18:09.025 --> 00:18:14.785 Um, um, and to, to yeah, to model that hu humility. 00:18:14.884 --> 00:18:18.634 And so that, that's personally in terms of a leadership, I think. 00:18:19.085 --> 00:18:21.575 I mean, you guys can speak into this as well. 00:18:21.605 --> 00:18:21.845 Yeah. 00:18:21.845 --> 00:18:33.244 Uh, I'm not, I don't know if I have the definitive answer here, but I think, I think from a leadership perspective, it was, it was, it was trying to, um, help people to navigate what can be a pretty confusing I. 00:18:33.724 --> 00:18:38.494 Area, um, particularly as we have, as have a view towards Revelation sometime in the future. 00:18:38.944 --> 00:18:43.115 I think it, it help, it, it kind of lays a groundwork for having good conversations. 00:18:43.214 --> 00:18:49.244 Uh, and yeah, I think maybe I'll pause there and let Mark say a few more, a few things. 00:18:49.305 --> 00:18:50.535 Do you have anything to add to that Mark? 00:18:52.664 --> 00:18:57.224 Uh, I think that we can speak positively about what our agenda is. 00:18:58.065 --> 00:18:59.744 In preaching the whole council of God. 00:19:00.105 --> 00:19:11.085 But be, I think before jumping there, in terms of having good conversations and relationships, I definitely don't think our agenda is to get everybody thinking the same. 00:19:11.384 --> 00:19:24.134 But our heart is that, I think this is what you were saying, cam, that we can have conversations and have fellowship more importantly, have fellowship, genuine Christian fellowship with people, even if on some point they think differently. 00:19:24.315 --> 00:19:24.464 Mm-hmm. 00:19:24.884 --> 00:19:25.214 And. 00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:33.450 That requires having, requires allowing people to have the freedom to express different views. 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:41.250 But the same thing goes allowing people to express different views back to you, uh, and not canceling them. 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:46.140 We we're in a cancel culture where if somebody says one thing wrong, we throw everything out. 00:19:46.170 --> 00:19:48.839 We're at risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water. 00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:51.089 This can happen with our theologians. 00:19:51.089 --> 00:19:53.369 Like I have had a number of. 00:19:53.984 --> 00:20:16.095 People over the last few years, and not from Canterbury Gardens who have canceled church fathers like Augustine, who have canceled modern theologians like NT Wright, who have canceled great expositors of scripture like Calvin who've canceled Belgrave Heights convention who've canceled someone like John Piper. 00:20:16.365 --> 00:20:22.005 And it would be as absurd as canceling someone like Darryl Bach if you're in a progressive dispensationalist, uh, sorry. 00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:27.809 If you are in a progressive covenantal camp saying, well, he's a dispensationalist of sorts. 00:20:28.109 --> 00:20:29.130 Well, I'm not gonna read anything. 00:20:29.130 --> 00:20:31.529 He said, well, what a waste have you lost? 00:20:32.549 --> 00:20:38.579 Um, the, the work of Darryl Bach on Luke, or Act in which he's an expert. 00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:48.180 So we want, at that theological level, people to feel free to engage with theologians who might think differently and glean from them what is good. 00:20:48.750 --> 00:20:51.390 And in our Sunday afternoon conversations. 00:20:51.855 --> 00:21:00.315 And Sunday lunch conversations to be able to not just tolerate, but love people who think differently on us particular point. 00:21:00.345 --> 00:21:01.454 I think that's our agenda. 00:21:01.755 --> 00:21:11.170 And I think part of that, I mean, kind of coming down on one aspect you said there, I think part of we need to be aware sometimes of this underlying skepticism we have towards others. 00:21:11.625 --> 00:21:13.065 'cause we're in this cancel culture. 00:21:13.095 --> 00:21:17.295 It's almost like, I know for myself you can be looking for. 00:21:18.134 --> 00:21:22.335 The error in what someone's saying rather than actually believing the best about them. 00:21:22.634 --> 00:21:31.275 As a fellow brother and sister in Christ, I feel like our disposition towards brothers and sisters should be, should be starting with grace and hoping the best, and believing the best. 00:21:31.845 --> 00:21:36.194 Um, I think that's sometimes where our, our, our conversations go poorly. 00:21:36.194 --> 00:21:43.214 You know, we make comments, even if it's passing even, we don't fully mean it as if this person I'm talking to. 00:21:43.724 --> 00:21:46.005 It doesn't take scripture as seriously as I take it. 00:21:46.184 --> 00:21:46.365 Mm. 00:21:46.484 --> 00:21:56.355 But maybe a better position to start from is to go, is to assume that they do, that we're both actually serious about scripture and we're serious about, uh, uh, wanting to interpret it rightly. 00:21:56.744 --> 00:22:06.375 And if we start from that position, um, not assuming they're trying to undermine scripture, then you can actually have a much more productive discussion because, you know, we're actually united over wanting to take the Bible seriously. 00:22:06.434 --> 00:22:06.585 Mm-hmm. 00:22:06.825 --> 00:22:09.585 We're just discussing, um, what that means in practice. 00:22:09.674 --> 00:22:10.515 Um, and so you. 00:22:11.805 --> 00:22:19.815 It kind of takes it from being this thing where you have to, you know, you know, you are, you are being the great defender of, of, of God's truth. 00:22:19.904 --> 00:22:19.994 Mm-hmm. 00:22:20.384 --> 00:22:28.095 As to just actually just trying to work it out with, with a brother or sister in Christ where there's a, there's a, there's a position of humility and graciousness towards someone. 00:22:28.095 --> 00:22:31.934 So I just think we just need to be pretty aware of like what Mark said, cancel culture. 00:22:31.964 --> 00:22:36.555 We can have a skepticism towards brothers and sisters, which I don't know if it's a good place to start from. 00:22:36.914 --> 00:22:37.154 Yep. 00:22:38.684 --> 00:22:54.150 I think, I think this is where I learned from brothers and sisters in Christ who are serving in, uh, particularly cross-cultural context or in mission agencies where they're working with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who've come from different types of theological backgrounds. 00:22:54.150 --> 00:23:02.609 When I talk about, you know, their, so for example, Presbyterian background, and then they're serving alongside with someone who's from a Baptist background, um, and. 00:23:03.075 --> 00:23:13.184 When I talk to them, the thing is there are those distinct differences and they hold onto those differences in the sense of those, um, things that they hang onto because that's how they've been brought up. 00:23:13.184 --> 00:23:20.714 But for the purpose of the gospel and for the purpose of gospel unity, they focus on the main thing. 00:23:21.585 --> 00:23:24.375 Um, and they look for ways to love one another and serve one another. 00:23:24.884 --> 00:23:28.454 And I think it, like you guys mentioned about cancel culture, it bears witness. 00:23:29.085 --> 00:23:35.474 To the community around them, particularly in this cross-cultural context where they're like, you're all from different backgrounds. 00:23:35.474 --> 00:23:42.015 You're all of, you know, ethnic backgrounds, perhaps even like church backgrounds, and yet you are getting along. 00:23:42.015 --> 00:23:42.795 How does that work? 00:23:42.825 --> 00:23:43.035 Mm-hmm. 00:23:43.275 --> 00:23:51.075 Um, uh, which I think it, yeah, I think that's something that we as a church leadership under God are praying for in our church. 00:23:51.285 --> 00:23:53.595 Um, it is a unique thing at Canterbury Garden. 00:23:53.805 --> 00:23:58.065 Like we talk about our history to who we were, to where we are now. 00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:18.119 You know, we've got people from all various different, church backgrounds, who've grown up in certain church backgrounds or just come to our church, have no idea what we're about in the sense of our history, and yet what we see is they want to see and know Jesus and grow in their walk with Jesus, which is Yeah, 00:24:18.269 --> 00:24:18.509 yeah. 00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:20.940 Yeah. 00:24:22.859 --> 00:24:24.450 There, there are two ways to look at that. 00:24:24.450 --> 00:24:26.490 Some people will look at that and say, well, you're just. 00:24:26.984 --> 00:24:29.684 Slipping down to the lowest common denominator. 00:24:30.375 --> 00:24:40.515 And that's a bit of a problem that maybe liberalism and existential theology has faced in the 20th century, that we say the world's not accepting this. 00:24:40.515 --> 00:24:47.085 Let's just go to the the to the least bit of teaching about love that we can get to, and then we can have something in common. 00:24:47.085 --> 00:24:50.355 But really that's not what I think you are saying, Shabo. 00:24:50.595 --> 00:24:50.865 Mm-hmm. 00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:58.410 To say, let's forget about our differences and focus on Christ is not to say, let's slide down to the lowest common denominator. 00:24:58.500 --> 00:24:58.680 Yep. 00:24:58.769 --> 00:25:04.049 But as you said at the start, we wanna make much of Jesus and you can't make too much of Christ. 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:04.230 Mm. 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:04.500 No. 00:25:04.769 --> 00:25:09.539 You can't make too much of what he's achieved, can't make too much of what he's achieving. 00:25:09.869 --> 00:25:13.410 You can't make too much of the blessing of being united in him. 00:25:13.470 --> 00:25:13.650 Yeah. 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:15.359 Um, it's just impossible. 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:15.630 Yeah. 00:25:16.289 --> 00:25:20.190 And so it's, it's stepping up to, to look at what is the big and main. 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.099 Glorious thing that Christ is doing. 00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:23.490 Yeah. 00:25:23.494 --> 00:25:23.545 Yeah. 00:25:23.940 --> 00:25:24.359 That's good. 00:25:26.394 --> 00:25:27.535 Can I You go, there you go. 00:25:27.714 --> 00:25:28.470 No, no, you go. 00:25:28.470 --> 00:25:31.619 Well, you know, we're talking about this cancel culture. 00:25:31.619 --> 00:25:33.839 I don't know if to step into the psychological world. 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:35.700 Do you know about social comparison theory? 00:25:36.029 --> 00:25:36.359 No. 00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:37.859 I'm about to find out. 00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:38.430 You're about to find 00:25:38.430 --> 00:25:42.690 out Social comparison theory, besting in the fifties. 00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:46.589 Put this idea together that what we do is we. 00:25:47.295 --> 00:25:50.565 Focus on our differences when we compare ourselves to others. 00:25:51.045 --> 00:25:57.795 And here's, we have this innate drive to evaluate ourselves and compare ourselves to others. 00:25:57.795 --> 00:25:58.964 Now I think we resonate with that. 00:25:58.964 --> 00:26:04.244 We all wanna know how do we stand and, and sort of prove our identity in the world. 00:26:04.605 --> 00:26:05.384 So how do we do it? 00:26:05.384 --> 00:26:08.384 And the problem arises the more similar we get. 00:26:08.954 --> 00:26:13.785 You know, if you are a Greek and cultured, you can look at the barbarians and say, well, of course the barbarians. 00:26:14.085 --> 00:26:16.394 But the more close you get to somebody. 00:26:17.474 --> 00:26:20.865 The more minutely you have to focus on differences. 00:26:21.644 --> 00:26:26.714 And then the bigger those small differences become, and I see this a lot with theology. 00:26:27.134 --> 00:26:29.595 Oh yeah, I know we're Christians, but you don't think this. 00:26:29.775 --> 00:26:40.664 And suddenly the thing that is the most powerful and uniting thing, which is Christ, his mercy is grace and his spirit in us because it's held in common. 00:26:41.085 --> 00:26:42.525 He's not seen as significant. 00:26:42.525 --> 00:26:46.394 He's not seen as being as significant as the minute. 00:26:46.769 --> 00:26:48.119 Theological difference we have. 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.180 I think that's a really useful thing to reflect on. 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:53.160 Social comparison theory. 00:26:53.640 --> 00:27:02.220 Am I really just looking for, you know, a way to say, well, I'm better than Cam because we agree on 99.9% of things, but at this he gets wrong. 00:27:03.150 --> 00:27:04.859 It's dangerous, it's poisonous. 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:10.839 So with that, I was just looking at the questions guys, but one of the things that stood out to me was probably the one that says. 00:27:11.710 --> 00:27:14.019 What is dispensationalism? 00:27:14.619 --> 00:27:22.480 What is the dispensational versus covenantal view on Jesus as the high priest since it relates to both Israel 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:24.519 specifically and the church's leader? 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:29.799 Yeah. 00:27:30.549 --> 00:27:37.259 I mean, I'm trying to, fully understand it, but I think, I think from my perspective mm-hmm. 00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:39.089 What I would highlight is that. 00:27:39.855 --> 00:27:49.785 I mean, personally, I'm more on that covenant theology side, and so, you know, I would highlight the fulfillment of Jesus being our true high priest. 00:27:49.964 --> 00:28:02.295 How he, how he is, is the one who is not only, through his death on the cross in the sacrifice, uh, the true and better sacrifice, but also in his, in his. 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:07.829 Priestly ministry now, which I think is often forgotten about, that he's interceding for us. 00:28:07.829 --> 00:28:13.799 That he is the one who, yeah, who is petitioning on our behalf in that sense. 00:28:14.069 --> 00:28:21.690 So, I mean, as it relates to Israel, specifically in the church's leader, that's where you get into the, again, you get into the distinctions in the views. 00:28:21.690 --> 00:28:21.990 Right. 00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:27.240 So I would say, you know, Jesus is the true Israel. 00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:30.029 And so, um, um. 00:28:31.694 --> 00:28:33.615 I would emphasize as high priest. 00:28:33.674 --> 00:28:44.535 Now for the church as Jews and Gentiles, um, he, he functions as that, that there's not sort of this future outstanding aspect of that. 00:28:44.535 --> 00:28:50.565 So, um, in terms of specifically to national territory, Israel, so I think, again, so. 00:28:51.690 --> 00:28:53.819 It really just depends on where you're coming from. 00:28:53.970 --> 00:28:54.240 That's right. 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:57.539 Um, but, but each view would highlight the importance of Jesus as high priest. 00:28:57.539 --> 00:29:08.069 Each view would highlight the importance of Jesus as the, as the greater and better sacrifice, and as the one who ultimately fulfills the high, high priest, kind of the priest role in, in the Old Testament. 00:29:08.069 --> 00:29:13.625 So I think, I think there's a lot of unity there, like, like we've been trying to emphasize. 00:29:14.255 --> 00:29:18.450 And Mark, do you see anything else in that question that you would, you'd highlight? 00:29:21.990 --> 00:29:22.799 Oh, probably not. 00:29:22.829 --> 00:29:25.829 Without getting into, into real details. 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:43.769 Um, I think to highlight that both perspectives do what you say, which is see Jesus as the fulfillment of, of, um, priest, prophet, and king is, is very important and that that's inaugurated with his ascension. 00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:45.390 Um. 00:29:46.589 --> 00:29:50.160 After his resurrection, his ascension to the, to sit at the right hand of God. 00:29:50.670 --> 00:29:54.089 It does have massive implications for what we think of as priesthood. 00:29:54.150 --> 00:30:05.460 So Cam Mu spoke about Jeremiah 31 as a good test case, a bit of a litmus paper test of what the views would say and that in a new covenant. 00:30:08.309 --> 00:30:14.460 Hebrews is saying that this new covenant is brought about in Christ, and that involves a new law and a new priesthood. 00:30:14.819 --> 00:30:28.619 So whatever Jeremiah says about priests enduring before God and law and, um, sacrifices, Hebrews seems to be saying this is taken up and fulfilled in Christ. 00:30:28.950 --> 00:30:29.220 Hmm. 00:30:29.430 --> 00:30:29.880 So, 00:30:30.974 --> 00:30:34.619 and, and particularly as his role now, right, as the ascended one. 00:30:35.835 --> 00:30:36.615 Advocating. 00:30:37.484 --> 00:30:39.045 Um, ministering. 00:30:39.795 --> 00:30:40.305 Ministering. 00:30:40.305 --> 00:30:40.365 Yeah. 00:30:41.509 --> 00:30:41.865 Yeah, yeah. 00:30:41.924 --> 00:30:42.134 Yeah. 00:30:42.765 --> 00:30:43.634 And I think that's right. 00:30:43.634 --> 00:30:53.204 I think that that tension of those who may have a particular, uh, dispensational lien or a continental lien, their view of Christ hopefully will still be the same Now. 00:30:53.625 --> 00:30:59.565 Lot of the new covered it, uh, the, the details like you said, um, might look different, 00:30:59.944 --> 00:31:19.055 sometimes with these questions about priest and priesthood and Israel being restored as an ethnic national identity, people have a, a real sense of, um, empathy for the plight of the Jews, and that's good. 00:31:19.789 --> 00:31:20.569 That's fine. 00:31:20.900 --> 00:31:28.759 Um, but what it can lead to is when or when will God do something to restore the Jews to the place that they should be. 00:31:29.089 --> 00:31:36.980 Now, however that works out in history, whatever perspective that takes some, the consequence can be sometimes that we're always for. 00:31:37.654 --> 00:31:43.144 Focusing on the future and why doesn't God do something now rather than what God is doing now? 00:31:43.144 --> 00:31:49.265 And this is why I want to come back to Shabu, what you're saying about that Christ is a high priest, ministering now to Jew and Gentile. 00:31:49.265 --> 00:31:49.714 Mm-hmm. 00:31:50.255 --> 00:31:58.115 And um, what about the Jew now or the Gentile now who doesn't know the promises of God? 00:31:58.505 --> 00:32:03.214 Will all the promises of God a yes in our man in Christ use that old translation. 00:32:03.815 --> 00:32:05.015 All the promises of God are yes. 00:32:05.015 --> 00:32:32.525 So if you want to experience the blessings of God come into Christ, um, that we are not looking for and there's no need to sit around waiting for some future, uh, institution, we can come now as, as even Cam read out, um, in his message on the new Covenant from Second Corinthians three. 00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:38.930 Referring to Hebrews, we can come to the new Jerusalem, we can come to this king now that is for Jew and Gentile. 00:32:39.410 --> 00:32:43.369 And if we, if we focus too much on the future, we forget about what is on offer now. 00:32:43.369 --> 00:32:45.079 Come to me or you who weary? 00:32:45.619 --> 00:32:45.769 Yep. 00:32:47.059 --> 00:32:47.240 Yep. 00:32:47.329 --> 00:32:48.859 Here's the way of the truth and the life. 00:32:49.069 --> 00:32:49.250 Right? 00:32:49.250 --> 00:32:50.900 No one comes to the father, but through me. 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:51.230 Yep. 00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:51.890 Yep. 00:32:53.150 --> 00:32:57.109 Um, not in here, I guess, you know, some of these questions are trying to. 00:32:57.724 --> 00:33:04.265 Get into the, the specifics about the differences, whether the positive or negative for each view. 00:33:05.224 --> 00:33:18.994 What do you guys see, perhaps if there are, um, dangers of, um, say you, you, you might have a progressive dispensational view or just some dispensational view and you click onto it. 00:33:19.894 --> 00:33:23.434 Um, and then you might say, no, I'm a progressive Combinator. 00:33:23.615 --> 00:33:25.355 Like what's the danger of. 00:33:26.434 --> 00:33:29.045 Hanging on to a view so tightly 00:33:30.605 --> 00:33:31.115 either view. 00:33:32.075 --> 00:33:32.494 Um, 00:33:33.394 --> 00:33:34.595 does that make sense, that question? 00:33:34.835 --> 00:33:35.285 Yeah. 00:33:35.285 --> 00:33:42.755 I mean, I, I, I, one thought before around, I think this is where maybe systems, systems cannot be helpful. 00:33:43.265 --> 00:33:47.105 Touching on what Mark said, um, what was it called again? 00:33:47.105 --> 00:33:49.055 Social comparison theory. 00:33:49.055 --> 00:33:50.375 Social social comparison theory. 00:33:50.734 --> 00:33:52.954 Um, in that, um. 00:33:54.299 --> 00:34:00.154 Uh, because, because systems can often highlight their difference in other to, to other systems. 00:34:00.184 --> 00:34:00.484 Mm-hmm. 00:34:00.964 --> 00:34:05.585 That becomes the fo the focus becomes on the difference when you adhere to the system. 00:34:06.005 --> 00:34:09.724 And then it can become, I unbalanced compared to scripture. 00:34:09.724 --> 00:34:19.445 So for example, when scripture talks about Christ coming, usually the application of Christ coming is focus on living for Christ Now, um. 00:34:19.985 --> 00:34:22.445 You know, uh, don't fall asleep, stay awake. 00:34:22.594 --> 00:34:37.054 Um, but if you go into a system and mm-hmm you highlight that, um, the difference is the way that Christ returns or what that looks like in the details. 00:34:37.864 --> 00:34:45.635 That can become the focus so that you get, you end up speculating or getting concerned with interpreting end times events or, or, or whatever it is. 00:34:46.025 --> 00:34:56.525 And, and you've lost the balance of what the New Testament is, is predominantly trying to do with the return of Christ, which is to motivate you for living in the present rather than thinking about the future. 00:34:56.554 --> 00:34:57.275 So I think Yes. 00:34:57.275 --> 00:34:59.644 In particular enduring through the present suffering. 00:34:59.644 --> 00:35:00.425 Exactly, yes. 00:35:00.635 --> 00:35:04.414 So I think that's a, I think that's where systems Aren unhelpful because they focus on the difference. 00:35:04.445 --> 00:35:06.394 You can highlight the difference and then. 00:35:07.204 --> 00:35:14.014 Yeah, you, you lose what scripture is actually emphasizing, even if those things are actually true, uh, in, in, even if they were true. 00:35:14.445 --> 00:35:17.204 Is scripture really focusing on that, in application. 00:35:18.224 --> 00:35:23.114 So I think that's where we need to continually just be submitting ourselves to what does God's word say? 00:35:23.235 --> 00:35:23.804 So yeah. 00:35:24.164 --> 00:35:32.125 So, cam that there were, there were a few questions in here about rapture and covenantal and dispensational views have differing ideas of rapture. 00:35:32.994 --> 00:35:41.844 And I think this is a good way to address it, is we can focus deeply on what my view says about the rapture. 00:35:41.844 --> 00:35:42.144 Mm-hmm. 00:35:42.385 --> 00:35:49.494 But when we look at something like, Paul's letter to the letters to the Thessalonians, what is his emphasis about the rapture? 00:35:49.795 --> 00:35:53.994 That if you are in Christ, whether you're dead or alive, you'll be okay. 00:35:54.175 --> 00:35:55.255 You are secure. 00:35:55.735 --> 00:35:57.295 And when he comes, you'll be with him. 00:35:57.715 --> 00:35:59.934 Therefore, comfort one another with these words. 00:36:00.324 --> 00:36:05.815 That is his application and which is what Cam is saying, the application is be comforted now. 00:36:05.994 --> 00:36:10.554 Comfort one another now about your security in Christ. 00:36:11.605 --> 00:36:17.394 I think that's the pastoral value of that doctrine. 00:36:18.474 --> 00:36:18.775 Yep. 00:36:19.614 --> 00:36:20.664 Yeah, no, I think that's helpful. 00:36:21.355 --> 00:36:25.585 Uh, it reminds me of a small story is um. 00:36:26.635 --> 00:36:34.764 I find when, uh, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who, who, who love discussing this, meditating on it, um, the different views. 00:36:35.454 --> 00:36:45.894 Um, they came across it or they stumbled on it or they read something and it just made their, their relationship with Jesus just come alive. 00:36:47.094 --> 00:36:52.855 I think because of that, it becomes such a fixated, passionate thing and it's not a bad thing. 00:36:52.855 --> 00:36:53.364 That's good. 00:36:53.454 --> 00:36:55.195 Like if it's flourishing, you walk with Jesus. 00:36:55.195 --> 00:36:55.735 Wonderful. 00:36:56.304 --> 00:37:02.875 Um, I think that the challenge for us, myself included is, um, is that the only thing that we talk about? 00:37:03.355 --> 00:37:09.715 Um, I remember, um, many years ago, um, visiting a friend's granddad. 00:37:09.775 --> 00:37:15.715 Um, he was about to pass away and, uh, the first thing, as soon as I walked in, he said to me. 00:37:16.420 --> 00:37:17.050 Hi. 00:37:17.050 --> 00:37:20.980 And I introduced myself and he said, oh, um, good day. 00:37:20.980 --> 00:37:23.050 And then he said, what version of the Bible do you read? 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.500 And I said, oh, at the time I read the NIV. 00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:32.530 Uh, and that's what I used to, and I still read the NIV now just, just in case we get emails about that. 00:37:33.219 --> 00:37:33.909 Uh, CHUs, 00:37:33.909 --> 00:37:35.500 that's the Neely inspired version. 00:37:38.170 --> 00:37:40.750 All right, let's, we'll, we'll edit that one out anyway. 00:37:40.750 --> 00:37:41.050 We'll see. 00:37:41.050 --> 00:37:46.750 Um, and but then what he did was, um, and now his posture wasn't to tell me off. 00:37:47.139 --> 00:37:51.369 It's because he thought what he heard was, oh no, I need to show you. 00:37:51.369 --> 00:37:57.280 So he sat down and he went through a whole chart of words that were missing out and changed and so on. 00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:01.570 Eventually landed on, I need to read the, in the King James version at the time. 00:38:02.260 --> 00:38:04.750 Now the posture wasn't like, oh, you're wrong. 00:38:04.750 --> 00:38:10.000 The posture is, I'm caring for you'cause you, you might have missed out on something now. 00:38:10.510 --> 00:38:16.599 Uh, my friend told, proceeded to tell me later on, that's what he does with everyone that comes over that became his gospel. 00:38:16.780 --> 00:38:18.280 Mm-hmm. 00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:22.300 And I think that's where we need to be, uh, encouraged. 00:38:22.300 --> 00:38:23.710 The conversations that we want. 00:38:23.710 --> 00:38:24.670 We want that in our church. 00:38:24.670 --> 00:38:28.599 We want those conversations, but at some point we also want to be able to go kc. 00:38:29.784 --> 00:38:31.135 Let's talk about Jesus as well. 00:38:31.375 --> 00:38:31.554 Yeah. 00:38:31.614 --> 00:38:33.324 In the sense of whatever that is. 00:38:33.324 --> 00:38:33.775 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:35.034 --> 00:38:55.255 I think that's right because I mean, even in preparing this, this, this training, in some ways I'm, I'm glad to move on because, because, you know, in terms of my, my, my week to week life, you know, there's a lot of hardships and struggles and, you know, fighting sin, fighting in terms of. 00:38:55.659 --> 00:38:58.210 Worldly pressures and raising a family and all these things. 00:38:58.210 --> 00:39:02.949 And, and so what I need to talk about with all is I need to talk about Christ. 00:39:02.949 --> 00:39:04.300 I need to talk about his sufficiency. 00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:11.650 I need to be reminded of gospel truths and like these are the things that enable me to persevere and, and to keep going. 00:39:11.650 --> 00:39:15.130 And so, yeah, I, I mean, I relate to what you just said, shoves. 00:39:15.130 --> 00:39:23.320 I think I, I sometimes get a bit tired of, not that I don't want to, I think there's a place and we should talk about some of these differences and, um, we should wrestle through them. 00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:25.239 Like I said, I want better conversations. 00:39:25.630 --> 00:39:39.130 But I would hope that for anyone that you are talking more about, about Christ and his sufficiency and, and those essential truths encouraging one another, um, than you are getting stuck on other things. 00:39:39.309 --> 00:39:42.940 Um, I think it's always a good thing to evaluate for yourself no matter who you are. 00:39:43.179 --> 00:39:47.349 Like how much, how have I made something, the, the main mm-hmm. 00:39:47.590 --> 00:39:48.851 Point of conversation mm-hmm. 00:39:48.914 --> 00:39:50.434 With other, with other believers. 00:39:50.614 --> 00:39:50.835 Um. 00:39:52.284 --> 00:39:53.635 And is that the main thing? 00:39:53.635 --> 00:39:56.635 So I, I think it's a, it's a good, good, good thing to highlight. 00:39:57.565 --> 00:39:57.715 Yeah. 00:39:57.715 --> 00:40:07.434 The ultimate revolution that we need is to see Christ as Messiah as Lord of all and I. 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:11.050 But within that, there can be smaller Copernican revolutions. 00:40:11.050 --> 00:40:14.440 There can be smaller realizations that, oh, the earth isn't flat, it's round. 00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:23.289 Or, oh, there is some real value to this translation, or there is some real value to this lens for interpreting scripture, which I didn't have before. 00:40:23.739 --> 00:40:26.739 But then I would say, well, God's word is so big. 00:40:27.670 --> 00:40:30.550 Why not start looking for the next thing that God is ready to show you? 00:40:30.550 --> 00:40:34.840 Rather than just class grasping that thing and making it, as you said, your gospel. 00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:36.519 Um, there's a story. 00:40:37.465 --> 00:40:55.105 About a lady who called the police, and she called the police to her apartment and said, I need you to come, because there's a man who keeps exposing himself in the, in the apartment building, just across the way on the, on the equivalent fifth floor. 00:40:56.005 --> 00:40:58.224 I'm in the fifth floor here, and he's over there exposing himself. 00:40:58.855 --> 00:40:59.605 You need to come. 00:41:00.054 --> 00:41:01.945 So the policeman comes and he. 00:41:02.934 --> 00:41:06.414 Walks in and he looks and he goes, what's the problem, ma'am? 00:41:06.445 --> 00:41:11.094 And she says That man over there, um, there, he's right there. 00:41:11.094 --> 00:41:19.195 Now he, he exposes himself, he walks around in his apartment naked all day and the policeman said, ma'am, I can only see the top of his head. 00:41:19.675 --> 00:41:22.614 And she said, you get up on the table and see what you can see. 00:41:27.565 --> 00:41:28.650 I better connect this to the system. 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:28.969 Yeah. 00:41:28.969 --> 00:41:29.570 You sure? 00:41:29.570 --> 00:41:31.135 That's probably where we go, where this is going, brother. 00:41:32.304 --> 00:41:47.364 When we are so fixated on our system, it's like we're standing on the table and we say to people, Hey, if you do this and this and this, and if you get right up here in this, in this perfect position, let me show you all the wonderful things I can see here. 00:41:47.934 --> 00:41:52.974 But it's not a natural position to stand in, and it's not a healthy position to stand in if you're up there. 00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:56.409 Teetering balancing, trying to see something. 00:41:56.710 --> 00:42:04.210 If we stand firmly grounded in the word, in the whole council of God, which Christ says he is testifying to him. 00:42:04.869 --> 00:42:11.920 These are the scriptures that testify to me and that, and as John says, that all of the grace and truth are revealed in Christ. 00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:14.050 That's what we're gonna see on a daily basis. 00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:14.230 Mm-hmm. 00:42:14.605 --> 00:42:23.664 So if we're seeing something that not everybody else is seeing all the time, we might be just balancing on the table, balancing on our system or what we call a system. 00:42:24.054 --> 00:42:24.204 Yep. 00:42:24.385 --> 00:42:24.534 Yep. 00:42:25.344 --> 00:42:25.554 Good. 00:42:25.885 --> 00:42:26.094 Yeah 00:42:27.565 --> 00:42:35.875 So one of the questions that came in well was, you know, sometimes I say, so what, or what's the practic practical application of all these views? 00:42:39.295 --> 00:42:41.304 Any thoughts on that before I make 00:42:41.304 --> 00:42:41.710 some comments? 00:42:43.179 --> 00:42:49.110 I think ipo, I think I did impart answer this on the day in terms of, you know, for me personally, it, lifts up Christ. 00:42:49.110 --> 00:42:56.699 It it, it kind of, you know, makes my heart rejoice in, in the wonder of, of his gospel and what he's done. 00:42:57.300 --> 00:43:03.219 And so I mean, I think that's one practical application of it, for me personally, but then also I think. 00:43:04.195 --> 00:43:09.655 I think it's, I think it's, you know, again, I don't want to keep coming back to that same purpose again and again. 00:43:09.655 --> 00:43:17.605 But really, um, for me, it's helped me to kind of better understand where others are coming from to see what their concerns are. 00:43:17.784 --> 00:43:22.315 Um, uh, yeah, I'll, yeah, I'll be honest. 00:43:22.315 --> 00:43:27.684 I've probably, maybe, yeah, I would personally say I too easily, probably dismissed. 00:43:28.030 --> 00:43:36.489 What some of the other views were saying and, and, so I think it's helped me just to come in, with more grace and humility to, to, to talk with others. 00:43:36.489 --> 00:43:49.445 So, and actually that's, that's already kind of in the last couple weeks I've had a few conversations with people about, about, the training and, and, and I would say almost all of them have been positive in that we've just. 00:43:50.054 --> 00:43:56.144 Been trying to wrestle with it and, and we've walked away in unity and agreement and I, and that, that's really was my hope. 00:43:56.144 --> 00:44:04.405 So that's a real tangible application, which I hope continues on, for me is just continuing to have good conversations and, and,, grow. 00:44:04.704 --> 00:44:09.085 So, I mean, they're the two things that came to mind for you, mark. 00:44:10.855 --> 00:44:13.315 Yeah, that's, that's so significant. 00:44:13.554 --> 00:44:14.875 That is the practical application. 00:44:15.054 --> 00:44:16.135 I remind people that. 00:44:16.900 --> 00:44:22.150 The whole purpose of God's covenant is that he, this is the covenant formula. 00:44:22.150 --> 00:44:32.420 I said this in the question and answer the other day, that God's desire is that God would be, with his people and that they would recognize him as their God. 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:36.050 I'll be with you and you will be my people, and I will be your God. 00:44:36.889 --> 00:44:42.619 So what that looks like is God consistently, faithfully loving his people. 00:44:43.625 --> 00:44:49.355 What he asks of his people is that they respond to his love and that they love each other. 00:44:49.905 --> 00:44:57.855 And the covenant formula for what people should do, the covenant obligations is to live in righteousness and justice towards each other. 00:44:58.664 --> 00:45:11.565 So the outcome of all this isn't to have a particular system, but is to treat each other well, rightly, fairly, and share the good news with. 00:45:11.985 --> 00:45:12.554 The world. 00:45:12.764 --> 00:45:12.914 Mm. 00:45:13.005 --> 00:45:15.074 So that should be the practical outcome. 00:45:15.494 --> 00:45:17.204 And then that might sound boring to you. 00:45:17.204 --> 00:45:19.545 You might say, I just wanna talk about nitty gritty ideas. 00:45:19.545 --> 00:45:20.684 Well, tough. 00:45:20.715 --> 00:45:23.804 That's the purpose of covenants and we need to deal with that. 00:45:24.224 --> 00:45:30.704 And so then that another practical outcome is what do I do with a person who's always talking about the hard and heavy theology? 00:45:32.775 --> 00:45:35.925 I think this, as I said before, this is our agenda. 00:45:36.945 --> 00:45:41.114 Our agenda is to let people, if on some point you think differently, that's fine. 00:45:41.985 --> 00:45:43.364 Will you give others the freedom? 00:45:43.364 --> 00:45:48.405 And it might just be that we need to say to people, can you just give me the freedom to think differently? 00:45:48.405 --> 00:45:56.114 Or the freedom to focus on what I think is God's main game, righteousness and justice, responding to his love. 00:45:56.414 --> 00:45:57.824 It's okay to say that to people. 00:45:58.875 --> 00:46:07.215 I, I appreciate that your interested, even fascinated, even obsessed with this, but is it okay if we talk about what is God's main game? 00:46:07.664 --> 00:46:07.784 Yep. 00:46:07.994 --> 00:46:09.585 Um, it's worth trying. 00:46:09.704 --> 00:46:10.724 It doesn't always work. 00:46:11.099 --> 00:46:13.289 'cause some people do get fixated, but it's worth trying. 00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:13.829 Yep. 00:46:14.429 --> 00:46:20.219 If you are the person who's fixated and you think your system is right, and this point really is something that everybody needs to know. 00:46:21.389 --> 00:46:23.190 What if we graciously grant you? 00:46:23.340 --> 00:46:24.179 Perhaps you're right. 00:46:25.289 --> 00:46:32.250 Maybe you're right on this one thing, but would you ask yourself if I'm right on this thing, at what point am I wrong? 00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:36.900 Hey, if I'm right on this point, there must be a point where I'm wrong. 00:46:36.900 --> 00:46:38.159 Otherwise, I'm a perfect man. 00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:47.730 So maybe instead of focusing on how right you are on one thing, why don't you start investigating what part of my theology am I wrong in? 00:46:48.150 --> 00:46:50.849 Or what area of theology haven't I understood? 00:46:51.510 --> 00:46:57.929 And that might lead to another revolution that gets you excited about God and his word that you just haven't seen yet. 00:47:00.579 --> 00:47:04.650 As I was reflecting on, I, you know, just wanna say thanks for doing the seminar. 00:47:04.650 --> 00:47:10.079 It's a lot of work to do, uh, that, particularly to squeeze it into the time that you did. 00:47:10.590 --> 00:47:17.699 Um, what's encouraged me is probably a couple of things as one of the pastors at the church is that there's been positive conversations. 00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.695 Uh, even my own son was, uh. 00:47:22.289 --> 00:47:25.530 Fascinated, interested as he listened and then the ongoing conversation. 00:47:25.530 --> 00:47:32.400 Then there were those who came to me and said, man, I didn't realize there was all these different nuances to this, because they brought up a particular way. 00:47:32.940 --> 00:47:40.349 Um, to some it was, uh, a challenge, uh, and still felt a bit unsettled, but they were willing to lean into understand it more. 00:47:41.010 --> 00:47:48.510 I guess that for us, you know, what's the practical application of all these views if you land on one of these views, great. 00:47:50.130 --> 00:48:04.510 The practical application is we pray that it will stir your love and heart for the reality of who Jesus is, and that at the end of the day, he's gonna return, and either will be called home or he will return. 00:48:04.510 --> 00:48:09.460 And so that means practical applications live, uh, based on that. 00:48:09.909 --> 00:48:10.300 Um. 00:48:11.034 --> 00:48:13.675 And, uh, that's our prayer for you. 00:48:13.735 --> 00:48:25.764 Uh, particularly if you're called Canterbury Home, uh, for us as a special leadership and then being a community that actually is able to talk about it openly, honestly, uh, even sometimes jokingly as well. 00:48:25.764 --> 00:48:29.125 I think it doesn't have to be full on serious, you know, debates. 00:48:29.155 --> 00:48:29.275 Yeah. 00:48:29.304 --> 00:48:31.494 Um, having a bit of fun is good. 00:48:31.675 --> 00:48:37.614 Um, and, and I think it's, it's, it, it really bears witness to the people around us. 00:48:38.364 --> 00:48:38.664 Yeah. 00:48:39.295 --> 00:48:42.505 I'm gonna read something that, from Acts, uh, chapter one. 00:48:42.934 --> 00:48:47.824 Jesus is speaking, to the disciples is before he sends to heaven. 00:48:47.914 --> 00:48:56.405 Uh, and this is what Jesus, so, so the disciple, so when they had come together, they asked him, Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? 00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:12.079 And he said to them, it's not for you to know these times or the seasons, so the father's fixed by his own authority, but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all of Juda and Samaria and to the ends of the earth. 00:49:13.309 --> 00:49:20.900 And when he had said these things as they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud took him out of their Saturn while they were gazing to heaven. 00:49:20.900 --> 00:49:26.150 As he went, the whole two men stood behind beside them in white robes and said, men of Galilee. 00:49:26.644 --> 00:49:28.114 Why do you stand looking into heaven? 00:49:28.114 --> 00:49:33.184 This Jesus who has taken up from you into heaven will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven. 00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:37.280 Um, those verses remind me of a couple of things. 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:42.110 You could go into the nuances and go into the debates, which, you know, already people are reading and, and listening. 00:49:42.380 --> 00:49:44.780 You're switched on going, oh, what, what does this mean? 00:49:44.809 --> 00:49:46.579 Yeah, the switchboards lighting up near the clause. 00:49:47.059 --> 00:49:47.480 That's right. 00:49:47.989 --> 00:49:54.440 Um, but I think we also, not to lose focus of what Jesus said is that you will be my witnesses with the power of the Holy Spirit. 00:49:54.440 --> 00:50:02.869 That's the, in my mind at least the focus, uh, of that is to, we've been sent out, um, uh, and how that works out. 00:50:03.469 --> 00:50:04.730 We dunno all the details. 00:50:04.789 --> 00:50:08.210 Yeah, well you will be my witnesses and he will return and how that works out. 00:50:08.210 --> 00:50:09.230 We don't know all the details. 00:50:09.230 --> 00:50:09.590 That's right. 00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:10.309 Yes, that's right. 00:50:10.460 --> 00:50:11.719 Yeah, that's exactly right. 00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:13.460 And so we pray that's our focus. 00:50:13.460 --> 00:50:15.769 Can I get one of you guys to pray for us? 00:50:17.449 --> 00:50:18.139 Yeah, I'd love to pray. 00:50:19.579 --> 00:50:23.719 Uh, heavenly Father, we just wanna thank you, um, for this discussion. 00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:24.440 We thank you. 00:50:24.500 --> 00:50:26.750 Um, yeah, thank you for my brothers here. 00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:29.690 Um, thank you that we united, um. 00:50:30.184 --> 00:50:30.844 In you. 00:50:30.905 --> 00:50:35.164 Um, I just wanna thank you, Lord, for the wonders of your word. 00:50:35.344 --> 00:50:38.434 Um, thank you for its depth. 00:50:38.644 --> 00:50:48.574 Um, thank you that, um, yeah, that it has, um, so many, um, different ways, um, of highlighting Christ and what he's done. 00:50:48.994 --> 00:50:54.844 Um, thank you that none of us, um, as Mark has already said, um. 00:50:55.429 --> 00:50:58.429 Fully understand the depth of everything that's going on in your word. 00:50:58.489 --> 00:51:04.849 Um, but Lord, thank you that you've made it very clear what the main thing is that yeah. 00:51:04.849 --> 00:51:08.809 That, that you have, shown us the wonders, wonders of the gospel in Christ. 00:51:08.809 --> 00:51:13.690 That, that Christ has come, that he's, that he's, that he's ab obeyed on our behalf. 00:51:13.690 --> 00:51:17.980 That he died on the cross for our sins, that he's risen, that he's ascended. 00:51:18.519 --> 00:51:19.389 And Lord, that. 00:51:20.635 --> 00:51:32.945 Yeah, that we as your church are recipients of, of the wonders of this good news and that you've entrusted us with a mission, to share the gospel, to the ends of the earth. 00:51:33.094 --> 00:51:38.025 And so, Lord, I just pray that, I think one of the big things that we've talked about today is keeping the main thing, the main thing. 00:51:38.355 --> 00:51:41.724 so I just pray that we'll be able to do that as a church, that we'll be able to. 00:51:43.644 --> 00:51:52.474 Uh, to discuss our differences in humility and grace, um, and to get on with the mission that we have, of sharing the gospel with all nations. 00:51:52.534 --> 00:51:55.204 And so, Lord, I pray for that. 00:51:55.204 --> 00:52:07.264 I pray for, yeah, I pray that you'll continue to give us wisdom, and as we, as we tackle these various topics, as we talk to one another, continue to, to grow us in our love for one another, Lord. 00:52:07.655 --> 00:52:16.235 And yeah, Lord, I just, I just, just so thankful for, for the work that you're doing in, in our church, and through our church, to those around. 00:52:16.414 --> 00:52:18.635 So we just wanna, um. 00:52:19.250 --> 00:52:20.300 Thank you for this time. 00:52:20.300 --> 00:52:21.349 Thank you for the discussions. 00:52:21.349 --> 00:52:25.639 Thank you for the discussions that others are having as well, um, that we don't even see. 00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:29.659 So we just praise you for all these things and give you the glory in Jesus name. 00:52:29.809 --> 00:52:30.170 Amen. 00:52:30.905 --> 00:52:31.195 Amen. 00:52:31.699 --> 00:52:32.150 Amen. 00:52:32.809 --> 00:52:34.159 Uh, friends, thanks for joining us. 00:52:34.159 --> 00:52:34.880 Thanks Cam. 00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:35.630 Thanks, mark. 00:52:35.630 --> 00:52:43.460 And in the show notes, we'll put, uh, the link to the seminar, but also we might put some links in there to, uh, I guess. 00:52:43.860 --> 00:52:50.760 Uh, resources that might help you think a bit more deeper and further, um, that we might recommend for you to check out and, uh, yeah. 00:52:50.849 --> 00:52:51.360 God bless. 00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:52.079 Thanks for joining us.