Canterbury Gardens Community Church (CGCC)

How does the Bible fit together Q&A.

• Shebu John • Season 3 • Episode 30

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Shebu

Well, good day everyone. Welcome again to Can Gardens Community Church podcast. My name is Shibu. I have the joy of serving as one of the pastors at Can Gardens, a church in the outer east of Melbourne. Our desire is to continue to be a church that wants to make much of Jesus, to encourage people to follow Jesus and to, I guess, disciple people to live for Jesus in this world. And recently at Canterbury, we ran a seminar, in regards to. Really thinking about how we look and read scripture through different lenses. In particular, it was presented by our associate Pastor Cameron, per who's here with us. And part of that we asked people Send some questions in and we're gonna do our best to answer some of them. Uh, we'll see how we go. And so today I've got, uh. Cam. Good day. Cam. Good day. Good to see you. And also Mark. Good day, mark.

Good day. Shas. Good to be here.

Shebu

Good. And so Mark serves on our leadership team here at, at the church. Thank you firstly for those of you who came to the seminar. Secondly, who took the time to send those,, questions and some statements as well. The question I was gonna ask is. In the context of the seminar cam, maybe why don't we start with what was bit of the summary? If you could, summarize what your presentation was about, not your presentation, what you're presenting for us.

Yeah. Well I think, I mean maybe it's helpful just to start with why I thought it might be a good idea to, to, to, to go through it. I think for me, I dunno, there's two, two ways you can kind of approach. Maybe two Kong ways you can approach difficult topics in, in Christian theology. Particularly on things we disagree on. One is to kind of avoid it altogether, and just, hope that you don't end up having a conversation with someone. I actually don't think that's helpful. I think that often leads to, to misunderstanding one another or to think that you maybe know what. Someone thinks, um,'cause you've heard someone say something on YouTube or whatever, uh, and you don't ever actually learn. Um, and, and all the other approaches to actually, you know, to tackle it head on and to, um, to be able to, um, better understand one another and where we might be coming from. So in, in my view, when a lot of time when people are talked about this particular topic, um, um, uh. People often make comments in passing that just led to misunderstanding rather than to good conversation. Um, or from my experience all of the time, um, people just weren't aware that there were other views on this topic. Uh, and so I think my heart really was to kind of, To go through these topics to give people a, a better understanding of scripture, a better understanding of, of where one another it might be coming from, for the sake of actually having better conversations. So, so it, yeah, that, that's really my hope. I, I think, I think we grow through just discussing scripture, scripture together through wrestling with it together. And, and I think. Better awareness of, of different ideas is, is actually helpful in that. And so, so that was really my heart. And I mean, if you're looking at the topic itself, uh, the, the very brief summary is, is, you know, dispensationalism is a particular view, that's come about that highlights a, a distinction between Israel and the church. So Israel, they would say, refers to kind of the national territorial ethnic people. Um, so whenever you see Israel, that's who it refers to. And then the church is distinct. So the church began in acts, acts, two. And, and so Dispensational really wants to highlight that, that Israel is an ethnic national territory. People still as a future, particularly in the millennium, they'll receive outstanding promises. So they wanna highlight that whereas. Covenant theology and its variations. So we talked about variations on both sides. I'm not gonna, go into the full training again here, but there's, variations on both sides. But, covenant theology in general wants to highlight that, that, Christ has fulfilled Israel. He's, he's true Israel. And then the church being united to him, are the new Israel or, in their relationship to, to Christ. And so, so they wouldn't say that there's. There's future promises for national territorial ethnic people, but they're for the church. So that's very brief summary of, of the kind of the core difference between those views. Can I just jump in? Jump in, jump. I think when you say the church, you mean the church incorporating both Jew and Gentile? Yes. Not the church as opposed to Jews. That's right. Yes, that's right. But, but all who have become one in Christ Jesus. Yes. That's it. Yep, that's right. Thanks Mark. Good.

Shebu

Uh, and we we're gonna have the, uh, a link to the actual presentation in the show notes. Yep. So if you wanna dive deeper in, well, with that in mind, and thanks for that summary, cam, one of the questions that came in was, is looking at these views on the Old Testament, new Testament and groups or camps, helpful? Or is it better to discern these things together without these. Perform pre performed ideas, which then leads into, you know, um, there seems to be, be some problems with both sides. Is it possible to adopt a bit of both? And then there was one of my favorite questions, uh, was can we just sit on the fence mm-hmm. On this? Yes. Yeah. Love to hear your thoughts,

guys. Yeah, I like that. Is there a comfortable fence to sit on? I don't know if there are many comfortable fences, but, yeah, I think I've spoken to a few about this. The value of systems, um, whether they're helpful or not. I mean, mark, feel free to push back on this. I, I probably think systems can't be avoided. I think anytime, anytime, you know, for example, someone asks you what is sin? Then you have to systematize or summarize what the Bible is saying. You, you're probably not gonna be able to give a full. Biblical theology of sin in the space of that answer. And so I think systems can't really be avoided. I think, uh, hopefully, you know, with all of these systems they're trying to argue from scripture as, as the one that informs the systems. So I, I kind of, I get why I understand where those questions are coming from. I understand as well the, the hesitancy towards systems. And I think that hesitancy probably comes from, it can feel at times that systems can impose themselves on scripture. Mm-hmm. Which I think is true. Mm-hmm. And that's the danger of any system. Mm-hmm. Any of the systems that I presented on that day, I would say there's people who can impose that system on scripture too much. Mm-hmm. Um, so I don't, I don't necessarily agree that systems are dangerous in themselves. I just think we just have to have the assumption that systems just always need to keep being, Uh, tested by scripture and so we shouldn't have ever such a hold tight hold on our system that, that, um, that it can't be, you know, uh, changed or, or modified or whatever. As we see scripture talk about it and probably as well. I mean, I'll be honest, I find systems helpful in presenting, in terms of teaching. Mm-hmm. So that's more while I did it, than anything else.'cause I think for clarity's sake, sometimes speaking about systems and a lot of the major books on these topics are dividing it up into systems as well. And so for me it was more teaching tool rather than saying you need to fit into this specific category or whatever. For me, I just found it helpful. You could definitely do it in a different way. Mm-hmm. You could, you could kind of, Work more from scripture up and, and not mention the, the, the systems at all. But I, again, I, I probably found that more difficult to think of how to do it. Maybe that's just a limit in my ability to, to know how to do that. But, um, yeah. But, but my purpose was simply for clarity. Yeah. In, in these things. I dunno. Mark, do you have any comments on that? Well, I think that's a good summary and to give an example, going to the world of science, science, is really not able to be. Communicated unless we communicate in terms of theories. Look, this is our working theory on how biology works. Cell biology or, or chemistry, whatever. We have a working theory, but the moment we turn it into a rigid unbinding unending rule, uh, suddenly it's betrayed science itself, which is to have a working theory to help us understand and for that to be continually developed, which is what Cam said. Mm-hmm. Um, but scientism. Is, uh, is when science becomes such a rigid system that says, you know what? We don't care about anything that falls outside our system. And if we can't answer it within our theory, we're gonna keep our theory and reject anything that falls outside and we can fall into that same danger with theology. But as Cam said, if we keep subjecting it to the scriptures to be revised, then we can get somewhere. Hmm. The second thing I wanna say about systems is what we're talking about here isn't simply systematic theology, but is the covenant. And both views agree that the covenant is a system that God has designed to help us to understand things. So in that sense, we can't avoid talking about systems because here in the Kingdom idea and in the covenant idea is the very system that God has given us to understand. How we interact with him and with each other. No, I was just gonna say that maybe I think that's helpful because in some ways this topic is combining systematic theology and biblical theology.'cause it's trying to piece together God's story, um, in a way that makes sense of all the scripture, because that's really what these systems are trying to do. So it is a task in both biblical theology and atic theology. Um, which is, yeah, which is good. I think those two should work together anyway. Yeah.

Shebu

You guys mentioned two things. One, one that just kept, I'm not sure if it's in the questions here, but you mentioned the words covenant. For those who are new to listening in or not fully get their heads around it yet, um, what, what, what is that? Um, what does that mean? Uh, particularly in regards to reading scripture. Not necessarily going into all the details of the types of covenants,

covenant. Now you referred to Gentian Willem's book, kingdom Through Covenant. We've got a definition in there from Hugin Berger. Um, a covenant in its normal sense is an elected, that's a chosen relationship of obligation under oath. It's a chosen relationship of obligation under oath. That's a bit of a mouthful, but what it means is it's not natural relationships. It's not human relatives. We're father, son, brother, and sister, just by birth. Nothing needs to be formalized there, but this is something that's opted into and in God's world, he chooses a relationship with us and he asks us to choose a relationship with him, but then it's bound together and there's obligations that come because of the promises made. God promises to be faithful to us, and we promise to be faithful to him. So it's chosen, it's a relationship, and it's formalized. That's is where the covenant comes, is it's formalized in a contract or a oaths and promises in a similar way to marriages. Does that help?

Shebu

Yep. That's good. Well, there's one of the questions that was in there was how does the new covenant slash creation interact with the already not yet eschatology. It's a lot, big words there, and reconcile the church's reality with promises to ethnic Israel.

I don't know. Mark, do you wanna start us off on that one still? No, I'm lost already. I'll have to listen to it again. Or can you summarize the question in different words? I can. I can

Shebu

say the question again. That's okay. How does the new covenant creation interact with the, already not yet eschatology and reconcile the church reality with the promise promises to ethnic Israel? I mean,

I think depends on your position, right? Yeah, that's right. I think, I think that question, again, it talks about. Reconciling the church's reality with promises to ethnic Israel. So if you're on the covenant theology side, then side of things, then you don't, you, you would say the church is receiving promises, that were originally given to ethnic national Israel. So in some ways that's a simple answer. The covenant theology, if you're not in that kind of covenant theology side of things mm-hmm. You think there's a distinction between Israel and the church, then you'll say. Well, then in the millennium mm-hmm. Uh, those promises will, will mm-hmm. Be fulfilled to national territorial ethnic Israel. Yeah. So I think, I mean, that's a fairly simple answer. Yeah. But that's, that's, that's how they would relate to, um, to those promises. Yeah. Let me just take it a step back. Yeah. Um. For people who are about to switch off'cause they've suddenly heard these theological languages, then think, well, it's not for me. We've, we've talked about already, not yet eschatology within that question. Mm-hmm. Um, and new covenant, new creation. One thing it's important to remember that, which I didn't describe in the definition of what a covenant is. It's that relationship. It's bound together by promise and obligation. And there are consequences. There's blessings and curses that. Come as a result of remaining in the covenant, God promises to bless and there's curses for being outside it. So one of the thing I think this question is asking is when God promises to make all things new, and this is what eschatology is talking about, in the end, when God restores all things to the way he intended it to be, what will the role of Israel be? Israel being physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So that's, I just wanted to explain the question a bit more, and as Cam said, it does depend on your view, just what role they play in the new, covenant creation. Mm. Alright. And that's, if we're talking about in the future, one thing that's important to pick up here is this already, not yet eschatology. Maybe that's worth talking about as well. Yeah, that's good. I think it's kind of a good place to talk because it's somewhere where progressive dispensationalism and progressive covenantal do by and large agree. There's still some distinctions about how we apply, but this is a very important concept, which is to say that when Christ has come, he has begun something new. He has established a new covenant, a new relationship, and promise of blessing, and he has begun a. Making believers new, putting his law in their hearts to live for him. And so what we don't want to do is get too focused on what God will one day do when he finally fixes everything to completion and forget about the wonder of what he has achieved and the significance of what he has achieved now. Mm-hmm. And that has, that has big practical implications for how we live. If we think, um, there's nothing good. Nobody says there's nothing good now. And as I said, both camps agree on this, but if you go to an extreme, we can end up just looking for a future time and we are quite dissatisfied here and now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anything else you wanna say about Uh, not really. I think I was just gonna say, just recognizing the similarities. I mean, I think that's what I try to do at the end with that kind of how we preach understanding was not to kind of say you, you know, you have to be in this space. But just to say that we agree. A lot of these positions actually do agree on the kingdom has come in Christ and it's gonna be consummated, it's gonna be brought about, it's gonna be completed in the future. And so, um, I think it's important just to highlight that even in, in terms of the way we live, in terms of the way we, think about the world. There probably isn't a lot of difference between that progressive ational covenant theology. No. But perhaps a little bit more of a difference between. Classic views Yes. Of these sides. Yes. Classic sides. Yes, that's right. The classic and revised dispensationalism would say the kingdom hasn't come in Christ. So that's mm-hmm. Again, that was kind of why I was just giving that guiding principle of, of that already not yet kind of eschatology comes, comes through with more progressive dispensationalism and then the covenant theology

Shebu

views. Mm-hmm. Yep. We, this probably connects to that, question that we chatted about before we started recording about, well, what's the church's agenda here? What's Cannery's heart behind this? Because one of the things we want to clearly communicate on as representing the leadership, the purpose of the seminar wasn't now going, Hey. Which side are you? And we'll try to figure out which side we're presenting, what's there. Uh, there may be some of us who're still wrestling with, I don't know. And that's, that's okay. Um, I guess, yeah, what's, what's the heart behind

why we did it? And, and particularly as

Shebu

Lord willing, if we reach the revelation next year?

Hmm. Well, I mean, I think, I mean, I kind of already expressed my heart a little bit in terms of. Um, you know, it's definitely not that I have some secret agenda. Mm-hmm. And I, and I don't think anyone in the leadership has a secret agenda about No. Bringing in certain, uh, I don't know, a specific theology or anything like that. I mean, I, I could speak personally maybe, and then, and then broaden out. Personally, I think I. I love good faith discussions with other people. And, and what I mean by good faith is that we can, we can wrestle with something, we can disagree, we can leave as brothers and or as sisters and we can just, be united in Christ. And so I think so, so my heart as a church that we, that we'll be able to model good discussions around scripture. And have unity, even in our disagreement.'cause I think that heart, I think that lifts up Christ. And so, yeah, I think, I think that's, that's a big heart for me in, in just, you know, being able to have better conversations with other people. Um, um, and to, to yeah, to model that hu humility. And so that, that's personally in terms of a leadership, I think. I mean, you guys can speak into this as well. Yeah. Uh, I'm not, I don't know if I have the definitive answer here, but I think, I think from a leadership perspective, it was, it was, it was trying to, um, help people to navigate what can be a pretty confusing I. Area, um, particularly as we have, as have a view towards Revelation sometime in the future. I think it, it help, it, it kind of lays a groundwork for having good conversations. Uh, and yeah, I think maybe I'll pause there and let Mark say a few more, a few things. Do you have anything to add to that Mark? Uh, I think that we can speak positively about what our agenda is. In preaching the whole council of God. But be, I think before jumping there, in terms of having good conversations and relationships, I definitely don't think our agenda is to get everybody thinking the same. But our heart is that, I think this is what you were saying, cam, that we can have conversations and have fellowship more importantly, have fellowship, genuine Christian fellowship with people, even if on some point they think differently. Mm-hmm. And. That requires having, requires allowing people to have the freedom to express different views. But the same thing goes allowing people to express different views back to you, uh, and not canceling them. We we're in a cancel culture where if somebody says one thing wrong, we throw everything out. We're at risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water. This can happen with our theologians. Like I have had a number of. People over the last few years, and not from Canterbury Gardens who have canceled church fathers like Augustine, who have canceled modern theologians like NT Wright, who have canceled great expositors of scripture like Calvin who've canceled Belgrave Heights convention who've canceled someone like John Piper. And it would be as absurd as canceling someone like Darryl Bach if you're in a progressive dispensationalist, uh, sorry. If you are in a progressive covenantal camp saying, well, he's a dispensationalist of sorts. Well, I'm not gonna read anything. He said, well, what a waste have you lost? Um, the, the work of Darryl Bach on Luke, or Act in which he's an expert. So we want, at that theological level, people to feel free to engage with theologians who might think differently and glean from them what is good. And in our Sunday afternoon conversations. And Sunday lunch conversations to be able to not just tolerate, but love people who think differently on us particular point. I think that's our agenda. And I think part of that, I mean, kind of coming down on one aspect you said there, I think part of we need to be aware sometimes of this underlying skepticism we have towards others.'cause we're in this cancel culture. It's almost like, I know for myself you can be looking for. The error in what someone's saying rather than actually believing the best about them. As a fellow brother and sister in Christ, I feel like our disposition towards brothers and sisters should be, should be starting with grace and hoping the best, and believing the best. Um, I think that's sometimes where our, our, our conversations go poorly. You know, we make comments, even if it's passing even, we don't fully mean it as if this person I'm talking to. It doesn't take scripture as seriously as I take it. Mm. But maybe a better position to start from is to go, is to assume that they do, that we're both actually serious about scripture and we're serious about, uh, uh, wanting to interpret it rightly. And if we start from that position, um, not assuming they're trying to undermine scripture, then you can actually have a much more productive discussion because, you know, we're actually united over wanting to take the Bible seriously. Mm-hmm. We're just discussing, um, what that means in practice. Um, and so you. It kind of takes it from being this thing where you have to, you know, you know, you are, you are being the great defender of, of, of God's truth. Mm-hmm. As to just actually just trying to work it out with, with a brother or sister in Christ where there's a, there's a, there's a position of humility and graciousness towards someone. So I just think we just need to be pretty aware of like what Mark said, cancel culture. We can have a skepticism towards brothers and sisters, which I don't know if it's a good place to start from. Yep.

Shebu

I think, I think this is where I learned from brothers and sisters in Christ who are serving in, uh, particularly cross-cultural context or in mission agencies where they're working with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who've come from different types of theological backgrounds. When I talk about, you know, their, so for example, Presbyterian background, and then they're serving alongside with someone who's from a Baptist background, um, and. When I talk to them, the thing is there are those distinct differences and they hold onto those differences in the sense of those, um, things that they hang onto because that's how they've been brought up. But for the purpose of the gospel and for the purpose of gospel unity, they focus on the main thing. Um, and they look for ways to love one another and serve one another. And I think it, like you guys mentioned about cancel culture, it bears witness. To the community around them, particularly in this cross-cultural context where they're like, you're all from different backgrounds. You're all of, you know, ethnic backgrounds, perhaps even like church backgrounds, and yet you are getting along. How does that work? Mm-hmm. Um, uh, which I think it, yeah, I think that's something that we as a church leadership under God are praying for in our church. Um, it is a unique thing at Canterbury Garden. Like we talk about our history to who we were, to where we are now. You know, we've got people from all various different, church backgrounds, who've grown up in certain church backgrounds or just come to our church, have no idea what we're about in the sense of our history, and yet what we see is they want to see and know Jesus and grow in their walk with Jesus, which is Yeah,

yeah. Yeah. There, there are two ways to look at that. Some people will look at that and say, well, you're just. Slipping down to the lowest common denominator. And that's a bit of a problem that maybe liberalism and existential theology has faced in the 20th century, that we say the world's not accepting this. Let's just go to the the to the least bit of teaching about love that we can get to, and then we can have something in common. But really that's not what I think you are saying, Shabo. Mm-hmm. To say, let's forget about our differences and focus on Christ is not to say, let's slide down to the lowest common denominator. Yep. But as you said at the start, we wanna make much of Jesus and you can't make too much of Christ. Mm. No. You can't make too much of what he's achieved, can't make too much of what he's achieving. You can't make too much of the blessing of being united in him. Yeah. Um, it's just impossible. Yeah. And so it's, it's stepping up to, to look at what is the big and main. Glorious thing that Christ is doing. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Can I You go, there you go. No, no, you go. Well, you know, we're talking about this cancel culture. I don't know if to step into the psychological world. Do you know about social comparison theory?

Shebu

No. I'm about to find out. You're about to find

out Social comparison theory, besting in the fifties. Put this idea together that what we do is we. Focus on our differences when we compare ourselves to others. And here's, we have this innate drive to evaluate ourselves and compare ourselves to others. Now I think we resonate with that. We all wanna know how do we stand and, and sort of prove our identity in the world. So how do we do it? And the problem arises the more similar we get. You know, if you are a Greek and cultured, you can look at the barbarians and say, well, of course the barbarians. But the more close you get to somebody. The more minutely you have to focus on differences. And then the bigger those small differences become, and I see this a lot with theology. Oh yeah, I know we're Christians, but you don't think this. And suddenly the thing that is the most powerful and uniting thing, which is Christ, his mercy is grace and his spirit in us because it's held in common. He's not seen as significant. He's not seen as being as significant as the minute. Theological difference we have. I think that's a really useful thing to reflect on. Social comparison theory. Am I really just looking for, you know, a way to say, well, I'm better than Cam because we agree on 99.9% of things, but at this he gets wrong. It's dangerous, it's poisonous.

Shebu

So with that, I was just looking at the questions guys, but one of the things that stood out to me was probably the one that says. What is dispensationalism? What is the dispensational versus covenantal view on Jesus as the high priest since it relates to both Israel

specifically and the church's leader? Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to, fully understand it, but I think, I think from my perspective mm-hmm. What I would highlight is that. I mean, personally, I'm more on that covenant theology side, and so, you know, I would highlight the fulfillment of Jesus being our true high priest. How he, how he is, is the one who is not only, through his death on the cross in the sacrifice, uh, the true and better sacrifice, but also in his, in his. Priestly ministry now, which I think is often forgotten about, that he's interceding for us. That he is the one who, yeah, who is petitioning on our behalf in that sense. So, I mean, as it relates to Israel, specifically in the church's leader, that's where you get into the, again, you get into the distinctions in the views. Right. So I would say, you know, Jesus is the true Israel. And so, um, um. I would emphasize as high priest. Now for the church as Jews and Gentiles, um, he, he functions as that, that there's not sort of this future outstanding aspect of that. So, um, in terms of specifically to national territory, Israel, so I think, again, so. It really just depends on where you're coming from. That's right. Um, but, but each view would highlight the importance of Jesus as high priest. Each view would highlight the importance of Jesus as the, as the greater and better sacrifice, and as the one who ultimately fulfills the high, high priest, kind of the priest role in, in the Old Testament. So I think, I think there's a lot of unity there, like, like we've been trying to emphasize. And Mark, do you see anything else in that question that you would, you'd highlight? Oh, probably not. Without getting into, into real details. Um, I think to highlight that both perspectives do what you say, which is see Jesus as the fulfillment of, of, um, priest, prophet, and king is, is very important and that that's inaugurated with his ascension. Um. After his resurrection, his ascension to the, to sit at the right hand of God. It does have massive implications for what we think of as priesthood. So Cam Mu spoke about Jeremiah 31 as a good test case, a bit of a litmus paper test of what the views would say and that in a new covenant. Hebrews is saying that this new covenant is brought about in Christ, and that involves a new law and a new priesthood. So whatever Jeremiah says about priests enduring before God and law and, um, sacrifices, Hebrews seems to be saying this is taken up and fulfilled in Christ. Hmm. So,

Shebu

and, and particularly as his role now, right, as the ascended one. Advocating. Um, ministering. Ministering. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's right. I think that that tension of those who may have a particular, uh, dispensational lien or a continental lien, their view of Christ hopefully will still be the same Now. Lot of the new covered it, uh, the, the details like you said, um, might look different,

sometimes with these questions about priest and priesthood and Israel being restored as an ethnic national identity, people have a, a real sense of, um, empathy for the plight of the Jews, and that's good. That's fine. Um, but what it can lead to is when or when will God do something to restore the Jews to the place that they should be. Now, however that works out in history, whatever perspective that takes some, the consequence can be sometimes that we're always for. Focusing on the future and why doesn't God do something now rather than what God is doing now? And this is why I want to come back to Shabu, what you're saying about that Christ is a high priest, ministering now to Jew and Gentile. Mm-hmm. And um, what about the Jew now or the Gentile now who doesn't know the promises of God? Will all the promises of God a yes in our man in Christ use that old translation. All the promises of God are yes. So if you want to experience the blessings of God come into Christ, um, that we are not looking for and there's no need to sit around waiting for some future, uh, institution, we can come now as, as even Cam read out, um, in his message on the new Covenant from Second Corinthians three. Referring to Hebrews, we can come to the new Jerusalem, we can come to this king now that is for Jew and Gentile. And if we, if we focus too much on the future, we forget about what is on offer now. Come to me or you who weary?

Shebu

Yep. Yep. Here's the way of the truth and the life. Right? No one comes to the father, but through me.

Yep.

Shebu

Yep. Um, not in here, I guess, you know, some of these questions are trying to. Get into the, the specifics about the differences, whether the positive or negative for each view. What do you guys see, perhaps if there are, um, dangers of, um, say you, you, you might have a progressive dispensational view or just some dispensational view and you click onto it. Um, and then you might say, no, I'm a progressive Combinator. Like what's the danger of. Hanging on to a view so tightly

either view. Um,

Shebu

does that make sense, that question?

Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, one thought before around, I think this is where maybe systems, systems cannot be helpful. Touching on what Mark said, um, what was it called again? Social comparison theory. Social social comparison theory. Um, in that, um. Uh, because, because systems can often highlight their difference in other to, to other systems. Mm-hmm. That becomes the fo the focus becomes on the difference when you adhere to the system. And then it can become, I unbalanced compared to scripture. So for example, when scripture talks about Christ coming, usually the application of Christ coming is focus on living for Christ Now, um. You know, uh, don't fall asleep, stay awake. Um, but if you go into a system and mm-hmm you highlight that, um, the difference is the way that Christ returns or what that looks like in the details. That can become the focus so that you get, you end up speculating or getting concerned with interpreting end times events or, or, or whatever it is. And, and you've lost the balance of what the New Testament is, is predominantly trying to do with the return of Christ, which is to motivate you for living in the present rather than thinking about the future. So I think Yes. In particular enduring through the present suffering. Exactly, yes. So I think that's a, I think that's where systems Aren unhelpful because they focus on the difference. You can highlight the difference and then. Yeah, you, you lose what scripture is actually emphasizing, even if those things are actually true, uh, in, in, even if they were true. Is scripture really focusing on that, in application. So I think that's where we need to continually just be submitting ourselves to what does God's word say? So yeah. So, cam that there were, there were a few questions in here about rapture and covenantal and dispensational views have differing ideas of rapture. And I think this is a good way to address it, is we can focus deeply on what my view says about the rapture. Mm-hmm. But when we look at something like, Paul's letter to the letters to the Thessalonians, what is his emphasis about the rapture? That if you are in Christ, whether you're dead or alive, you'll be okay. You are secure. And when he comes, you'll be with him. Therefore, comfort one another with these words. That is his application and which is what Cam is saying, the application is be comforted now. Comfort one another now about your security in Christ. I think that's the pastoral value of that doctrine.

Shebu

Yep.

Yeah, no, I think that's helpful.

Shebu

Uh, it reminds me of a small story is um. I find when, uh, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who, who, who love discussing this, meditating on it, um, the different views. Um, they came across it or they stumbled on it or they read something and it just made their, their relationship with Jesus just come alive. I think because of that, it becomes such a fixated, passionate thing and it's not a bad thing. That's good. Like if it's flourishing, you walk with Jesus. Wonderful. Um, I think that the challenge for us, myself included is, um, is that the only thing that we talk about? Um, I remember, um, many years ago, um, visiting a friend's granddad. Um, he was about to pass away and, uh, the first thing, as soon as I walked in, he said to me. Hi. And I introduced myself and he said, oh, um, good day. And then he said, what version of the Bible do you read? And I said, oh, at the time I read the NIV. Uh, and that's what I used to, and I still read the NIV now just, just in case we get emails about that. Uh, CHUs,

that's the Neely inspired version.

Shebu

All right, let's, we'll, we'll edit that one out anyway. We'll see. Um, and but then what he did was, um, and now his posture wasn't to tell me off. It's because he thought what he heard was, oh no, I need to show you. So he sat down and he went through a whole chart of words that were missing out and changed and so on. Eventually landed on, I need to read the, in the King James version at the time. Now the posture wasn't like, oh, you're wrong. The posture is, I'm caring for you'cause you, you might have missed out on something now. Uh, my friend told, proceeded to tell me later on, that's what he does with everyone that comes over that became his gospel.

Mm-hmm.

Shebu

And I think that's where we need to be, uh, encouraged. The conversations that we want. We want that in our church. We want those conversations, but at some point we also want to be able to go kc. Let's talk about Jesus as well. Yeah. In the sense of whatever that is. Yeah, yeah.

I think that's right because I mean, even in preparing this, this, this training, in some ways I'm, I'm glad to move on because, because, you know, in terms of my, my, my week to week life, you know, there's a lot of hardships and struggles and, you know, fighting sin, fighting in terms of. Worldly pressures and raising a family and all these things. And, and so what I need to talk about with all is I need to talk about Christ. I need to talk about his sufficiency. I need to be reminded of gospel truths and like these are the things that enable me to persevere and, and to keep going. And so, yeah, I, I mean, I relate to what you just said, shoves. I think I, I sometimes get a bit tired of, not that I don't want to, I think there's a place and we should talk about some of these differences and, um, we should wrestle through them. Like I said, I want better conversations. But I would hope that for anyone that you are talking more about, about Christ and his sufficiency and, and those essential truths encouraging one another, um, than you are getting stuck on other things. Um, I think it's always a good thing to evaluate for yourself no matter who you are. Like how much, how have I made something, the, the main mm-hmm. Point of conversation mm-hmm. With other, with other believers. Um. And is that the main thing? So I, I think it's a, it's a good, good, good thing to highlight. Yeah. The ultimate revolution that we need is to see Christ as Messiah as Lord of all and I. But within that, there can be smaller Copernican revolutions. There can be smaller realizations that, oh, the earth isn't flat, it's round. Or, oh, there is some real value to this translation, or there is some real value to this lens for interpreting scripture, which I didn't have before. But then I would say, well, God's word is so big. Why not start looking for the next thing that God is ready to show you? Rather than just class grasping that thing and making it, as you said, your gospel. Um, there's a story. About a lady who called the police, and she called the police to her apartment and said, I need you to come, because there's a man who keeps exposing himself in the, in the apartment building, just across the way on the, on the equivalent fifth floor. I'm in the fifth floor here, and he's over there exposing himself. You need to come. So the policeman comes and he. Walks in and he looks and he goes, what's the problem, ma'am? And she says That man over there, um, there, he's right there. Now he, he exposes himself, he walks around in his apartment naked all day and the policeman said, ma'am, I can only see the top of his head. And she said, you get up on the table and see what you can see. I better connect this to the system. Yeah. You sure? That's probably where we go, where this is going, brother. When we are so fixated on our system, it's like we're standing on the table and we say to people, Hey, if you do this and this and this, and if you get right up here in this, in this perfect position, let me show you all the wonderful things I can see here. But it's not a natural position to stand in, and it's not a healthy position to stand in if you're up there. Teetering balancing, trying to see something. If we stand firmly grounded in the word, in the whole council of God, which Christ says he is testifying to him. These are the scriptures that testify to me and that, and as John says, that all of the grace and truth are revealed in Christ. That's what we're gonna see on a daily basis. Mm-hmm. So if we're seeing something that not everybody else is seeing all the time, we might be just balancing on the table, balancing on our system or what we call a system. Yep. Yep. Good. Yeah

Shebu

So one of the questions that came in well was, you know, sometimes I say, so what, or what's the practic practical application of all these views?

Any thoughts on that before I make

Shebu

some comments?

I think ipo, I think I did impart answer this on the day in terms of, you know, for me personally, it, lifts up Christ. It it, it kind of, you know, makes my heart rejoice in, in the wonder of, of his gospel and what he's done. And so I mean, I think that's one practical application of it, for me personally, but then also I think. I think it's, I think it's, you know, again, I don't want to keep coming back to that same purpose again and again. But really, um, for me, it's helped me to kind of better understand where others are coming from to see what their concerns are. Um, uh, yeah, I'll, yeah, I'll be honest. I've probably, maybe, yeah, I would personally say I too easily, probably dismissed. What some of the other views were saying and, and, so I think it's helped me just to come in, with more grace and humility to, to, to talk with others. So, and actually that's, that's already kind of in the last couple weeks I've had a few conversations with people about, about, the training and, and, and I would say almost all of them have been positive in that we've just. Been trying to wrestle with it and, and we've walked away in unity and agreement and I, and that, that's really was my hope. So that's a real tangible application, which I hope continues on, for me is just continuing to have good conversations and, and,, grow. So, I mean, they're the two things that came to mind for you, mark. Yeah, that's, that's so significant. That is the practical application. I remind people that. The whole purpose of God's covenant is that he, this is the covenant formula. I said this in the question and answer the other day, that God's desire is that God would be, with his people and that they would recognize him as their God. I'll be with you and you will be my people, and I will be your God. So what that looks like is God consistently, faithfully loving his people. What he asks of his people is that they respond to his love and that they love each other. And the covenant formula for what people should do, the covenant obligations is to live in righteousness and justice towards each other. So the outcome of all this isn't to have a particular system, but is to treat each other well, rightly, fairly, and share the good news with. The world. Mm. So that should be the practical outcome. And then that might sound boring to you. You might say, I just wanna talk about nitty gritty ideas. Well, tough. That's the purpose of covenants and we need to deal with that. And so then that another practical outcome is what do I do with a person who's always talking about the hard and heavy theology? I think this, as I said before, this is our agenda. Our agenda is to let people, if on some point you think differently, that's fine. Will you give others the freedom? And it might just be that we need to say to people, can you just give me the freedom to think differently? Or the freedom to focus on what I think is God's main game, righteousness and justice, responding to his love. It's okay to say that to people. I, I appreciate that your interested, even fascinated, even obsessed with this, but is it okay if we talk about what is God's main game? Yep. Um, it's worth trying. It doesn't always work.'cause some people do get fixated, but it's worth trying. Yep. If you are the person who's fixated and you think your system is right, and this point really is something that everybody needs to know. What if we graciously grant you? Perhaps you're right. Maybe you're right on this one thing, but would you ask yourself if I'm right on this thing, at what point am I wrong? Hey, if I'm right on this point, there must be a point where I'm wrong. Otherwise, I'm a perfect man. So maybe instead of focusing on how right you are on one thing, why don't you start investigating what part of my theology am I wrong in? Or what area of theology haven't I understood? And that might lead to another revolution that gets you excited about God and his word that you just haven't seen yet.

Shebu

As I was reflecting on, I, you know, just wanna say thanks for doing the seminar. It's a lot of work to do, uh, that, particularly to squeeze it into the time that you did. Um, what's encouraged me is probably a couple of things as one of the pastors at the church is that there's been positive conversations. Uh, even my own son was, uh. Fascinated, interested as he listened and then the ongoing conversation. Then there were those who came to me and said, man, I didn't realize there was all these different nuances to this, because they brought up a particular way. Um, to some it was, uh, a challenge, uh, and still felt a bit unsettled, but they were willing to lean into understand it more. I guess that for us, you know, what's the practical application of all these views if you land on one of these views, great. The practical application is we pray that it will stir your love and heart for the reality of who Jesus is, and that at the end of the day, he's gonna return, and either will be called home or he will return. And so that means practical applications live, uh, based on that. Um. And, uh, that's our prayer for you. Uh, particularly if you're called Canterbury Home, uh, for us as a special leadership and then being a community that actually is able to talk about it openly, honestly, uh, even sometimes jokingly as well. I think it doesn't have to be full on serious, you know, debates. Yeah. Um, having a bit of fun is good. Um, and, and I think it's, it's, it, it really bears witness to the people around us.

Yeah.

Shebu

I'm gonna read something that, from Acts, uh, chapter one. Jesus is speaking, to the disciples is before he sends to heaven. Uh, and this is what Jesus, so, so the disciple, so when they had come together, they asked him, Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And he said to them, it's not for you to know these times or the seasons, so the father's fixed by his own authority, but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all of Juda and Samaria and to the ends of the earth. And when he had said these things as they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud took him out of their Saturn while they were gazing to heaven. As he went, the whole two men stood behind beside them in white robes and said, men of Galilee. Why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus who has taken up from you into heaven will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven. Um, those verses remind me of a couple of things. You could go into the nuances and go into the debates, which, you know, already people are reading and, and listening. You're switched on going, oh, what, what does this mean?

Yeah, the switchboards lighting up near the clause. That's right.

Shebu

Um, but I think we also, not to lose focus of what Jesus said is that you will be my witnesses with the power of the Holy Spirit. That's the, in my mind at least the focus, uh, of that is to, we've been sent out, um, uh, and how that works out. We dunno all the details.

Yeah, well you will be my witnesses and he will return and how that works out. We don't know all the details. That's right.

Shebu

Yes, that's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so we pray that's our focus. Can I get one of you guys to pray for us?

Yeah, I'd love to pray. Uh, heavenly Father, we just wanna thank you, um, for this discussion. We thank you. Um, yeah, thank you for my brothers here. Um, thank you that we united, um. In you. Um, I just wanna thank you, Lord, for the wonders of your word. Um, thank you for its depth. Um, thank you that, um, yeah, that it has, um, so many, um, different ways, um, of highlighting Christ and what he's done. Um, thank you that none of us, um, as Mark has already said, um. Fully understand the depth of everything that's going on in your word. Um, but Lord, thank you that you've made it very clear what the main thing is that yeah. That, that you have, shown us the wonders, wonders of the gospel in Christ. That, that Christ has come, that he's, that he's, that he's ab obeyed on our behalf. That he died on the cross for our sins, that he's risen, that he's ascended. And Lord, that. Yeah, that we as your church are recipients of, of the wonders of this good news and that you've entrusted us with a mission, to share the gospel, to the ends of the earth. And so, Lord, I just pray that, I think one of the big things that we've talked about today is keeping the main thing, the main thing. so I just pray that we'll be able to do that as a church, that we'll be able to. Uh, to discuss our differences in humility and grace, um, and to get on with the mission that we have, of sharing the gospel with all nations. And so, Lord, I pray for that. I pray for, yeah, I pray that you'll continue to give us wisdom, and as we, as we tackle these various topics, as we talk to one another, continue to, to grow us in our love for one another, Lord. And yeah, Lord, I just, I just, just so thankful for, for the work that you're doing in, in our church, and through our church, to those around. So we just wanna, um. Thank you for this time. Thank you for the discussions. Thank you for the discussions that others are having as well, um, that we don't even see. So we just praise you for all these things and give you the glory in Jesus name. Amen.

Shebu

Amen. Amen. Uh, friends, thanks for joining us. Thanks Cam. Thanks, mark. And in the show notes, we'll put, uh, the link to the seminar, but also we might put some links in there to, uh, I guess. Uh, resources that might help you think a bit more deeper and further, um, that we might recommend for you to check out and, uh, yeah. God bless. Thanks for joining us.