Alex & Tim - Share their stories.

One of our earliest podcasts was hearing from Jess. Who shared her story about her journey with endometriosis & Multiple Sclerosis, you can check out here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2416287/episodes/16212050-jess-s-story.mp3?download=true

As part of that discussion, we followed up by chatting with Tim, her husband, about his perspective, which led to having Alex join us to share his story, too.

Both Alex and Tim are sharing their personal stories, and anything said is not to be taken as professional medical advice. 

Want to know more about Endometriosis? https://endometriosisaustralia.org/ 

Want to know more about MS? https://www.msaustralia.org.au/ 

The Meaning of Marriage by Timothy Keller: https://timothykeller.com/books/the-meaning-of-marriage 

Steve Mc Alpine:https://stephenmcalpine.com/ 

Want to know more about CGCC? Just head to our website: https://www.cgcc.org.au/

Transcript

Shebu 0:04

Well, good day everyone. Welcome back. It's been a while since our last, uh, stories podcast. We've had been uploading our sermons and things, which probably maybe my mom's the only one who listens to it. But thanks, mom. Uh, and we've been, uh, it's been a while since we did our last story, and so this time, uh, we wanted to continue that. Uh, now if you are coming across our podcast for the very first time, my name is Shabu. I have the joy of serving as one of the pastors at Canterbury Gardens. A church in the outer east of Melbourne here in Australia. Uh, our heart is to really continue to grow, to know Jesus and make his good news be the truth that shapes all areas of our lives in all seasons of our lives, both in our times of joy and great trial. And so. Well, today I have two very special guests. Um, I was about to say world famous. Maybe one of them might be actually from history, and there's a story to that. Uh, uh, um, Alex and Tim, now the context is just to give you a bit of history here. So Tim's wife, Jess, shared her story, uh, while back on our podcast, one of our earlier podcasts, um, about her health journey. And the idea came out from chatting with her and just, I guess talking to her husband Tim as well, and others, maybe we should get the husband's perspective. On journey, and that's where Tim said maybe we should have a couple of us sharing. And so today I've got Alex and Tim. As I mentioned earlier, I did try a few other people, but Tim and Alex were willing to do it for free. And so we've got a tight budget in our church budget, and so they're willing to say, yeah. So welcome Tim, Alex.

Tim 1:35

Thanks for having

Shebu 1:35

us. Oh, pleasure. It's, thanks. Good to see you both.

Tim 1:38

It wasn't quite for free. We did ask for a coffee, but we didn't get that.

Shebu 1:41

No, I, no, you know what, if you can't see there, we don't, we're not up, up, updated to any video kind of stuff yet, but there is coffee mugs or that are empty just to rub it in and, and got At least you got water though. That's pretty impressive. Yeah. Thanks for that. That's true. That's high. We're high end here. Basically the same isn't it? Both

Alex 1:57

brought our water bottles

Shebu 1:58

as well. You do bring your water bottles. That's true. Um. So, uh, maybe going to, to both of you maybe, why don't we get to know you a little bit? Um, maybe we'll start with you, uh, Alex, who are you and who are you during the week? Uh, tell us a bit about your family.

Alex 2:12

I try to be the same person during the week. That's, and on the weekends generally. Uh, yeah, so I'm Alex Kovich is my surname, married to Kelly, and I've got three beautiful children. Caleb is four. Teddy's just turning three at some point. Whenever people are listening to this Uhhuh and Caroline is six months old. Okay. What's your last

Shebu 2:36

name? Is there, what's the heritage there?

Alex 2:38

Croatian. Ah, okay. Yes. Um, my dad was Croatian. Okay. He passed away when I was seven. Really? Yes, indeed. Which is kind of relevant to this episode. Okay. In that my sort of concepts of how I relate to my wife. He's very much intentional because when my dad passed away at that age of seven, very pivotal for trying to understand the world and manhood and myself and I, yeah. Had to piece it all together and. Sort of not having a clear example of this is my dad and this is what I'm gonna do, led me to the church and sort of taking the best bits that I could identify, um, from a lot of people and now sort of trying to give that to my family. So, okay. Well I can dig into that a little bit. Croatian. Croatian. There you go. Um, are you working? Are you Yes. So I work at a school. I am a behavioral specialist. Okay. Um. There's an element of faking it till you make it in that industry. I think for everyone. Okay. Um, it's a lot of just meeting people, understanding who they are and what makes them tick, and then trying strategies and figuring that out. But within the context of my school, it's really, uh, relaxed and um, person centered and everyone's really supportive. And it's not a high stress environment in any way, shape, or, um, yeah, it's just really good.

Shebu 3:59

Okay. You've got a Milwaukee. Drink bottles. Does that mean you're a tradie?

Alex 4:03

I was a tradie, yes. Um, on school holidays, I'm a tradie. Okay. Um, yep. I do decks and bits and pieces for people on the school holidays. I worked as a chippy for six years. Oh. Um, it was, it was always with the intention to get qualified and then pivot to something else. Just get it under my belt. Okay. Um. But I'm not an athlete in any way, shape, or form. I could not imagine doing that day in, day out. Okay. Um, and I very intentionally, the moment I got married, um, I worked as a chippy maybe for six months, not even a full year of marriage. Um, and very quickly told Kelly, I am trying to get outta this and you'll have the best of me very, very soon. Okay. Um.'cause Yeah, I was just falling asleep at like 7:00 PM Yeah, like it's, it's a hard life. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, okay.

Shebu 4:49

Well thanks for, um, when you mentioned that you're not an athlete, but you looked at me when you'd mentioned athlete, so I appreciate that, uh, from, uh, myself as an athlete and to another athlete. All right, Tim, so for those of you, um, Tim's wife, Jess was on our, one of our very first podcasts actually, where she shared a bit of a health story. So, uh, Tim. Good day.

Tim 5:09

Hey, how's it going?

Shebu 5:10

Good mate. So who are you during the week?

Tim 5:12

Um, so I'm studying full-time at the moment. Um, I'm studying physiotherapy, um, which means I kind of just work when I can mm-hmm. Around that. Um, but it's pretty full on, um, the course I'm doing, so yeah. So most of my week's taken up by that at the moment. And then as I'm sure you'll hear looking after my wife, um, who, I don't have any kids at the moment, but I've got one on the way, which is kind of cool. Hey, congrats. Um, but we have got a little fur baby called Teddy, so who's also just over three, so we can just kind of relate there. We've noticed

Alex 5:40

it's a pretty common name for, for fur babies. Yes, it's an unreal name and, and normal babies,

Shebu 5:45

skin babies.

Tim 5:47

So yeah, that's pretty much me to be honest.

Shebu 5:48

Okay, cool. Um, yeah, that's pretty exciting, man. When's your little one due? Feb. Like Feb. Okay. That's exciting. That's really cool. Very exciting. Um, sorry, I just got, uh, I remembered your, this is a total tangent, so I might edit this out, but it was when you dedicated your son Teddy. Yeah. One of my highlight moments was when you got up and said. Uh, Teddy, Ted means teddy bear. Something along those lines. Trolling the church ing the wonderful, that's what we, okay. So, um, now both of you, uh, so Alex, you're married to Kelly. Mm-hmm. Um, Tim, you're married to Jess. Uh, maybe, uh, for our listeners, what, what is the health journey, because we're gonna jump straight into it. What, what, what is your wife's diagnosis of this season? Um, and did you guys know about it going into it or was it something that you've discovered maybe starting with Alex and then jump to Tim?

Alex 6:41

Yeah, yeah, sure. So Kelly has endometriosis, um, amongst other things. So we sort of, um, initially sort of noticed some differences with Kelly pre even trying to have kids, um, early stages of marriage. Now. Kelly and I were only, uh, but we dated for four months. Okay. We were engaged for four months. Wow. Um, and then got married, um, and then very quickly, uh, moved into buying a house and trying for kids. Um, so it was, it's really difficult to figure out dates and Yep. And yeah. All that sort of thing. But, um, super early days we were going on a hike, um, and Kelly couldn't get like 200 meters up a track. Mm-hmm. Um. That, like it wasn't all that difficult of a track. Mm. Um, and she was in physical pain. Mm. Um, and I was like, oh, what's going on here? This is interesting. Um, and then she went in for some tests and, uh, they discovered fibroids, um, in and around her uterus area. Um, so she had to go in for a surgery to pull them out, and that's when they, um, found the endometriosis.

7:51

Mm-hmm.

Alex 7:51

Um, so I think endometriosis is one of those things that, um. I believe a lot of women have, and it sort of goes undiagnosed and Okay. Um, there's a lot of, um, frustration around the industry around how it's sort of, um, dealt with and, um, researched. But, um, yeah, she found it that way, which was kind of convenient at the beginning of our, um, relationship that mm-hmm. We could sort of figure out what the plan was. Um, but yeah, then that turned into trying to get pregnant. Um, still with a hope of wanting to. Conceived naturally. Mm-hmm. Um, but then, uh, yeah, going down the road of IVF after exploring pretty much every other option, um, and exhausting that. Um, which is about a two, two year period. Um, yeah. Then we went down the road of IVF, um, which has sort of meant that her. Pain cycle has been in stages. There's been stages where her whole system's shut down and she's not really sort of experiencing any of the effects of it. Um, but when those baby making hormones are in full effect and all of that's working and growing the endometriosis, endometriosis is. Pretty severe. Um, and her pain is Yeah. Pretty severe. Wow. Yeah. So we're currently in one of those stages where they haven't, since we've had Caroline, they haven't quite, um, gotten back to shutting it all down yet. Okay. Um, so yeah, we're just sort of waiting every month. It's a tick time bomb. Oh, wow. Um, but yeah, puts her out for a week and a half.

Shebu 9:24

Quite severely intense. Yes. Yep. Tim, uh, for your journey with Jess, she shared a little bit on, uh, what she shared, but what, from your perspective. Did you know?

Tim 9:36

Yeah, no. Um, yeah, so I mean, Jess obviously shared a little bit about our journey when she was on, but, um, we dated for four years. Um, got married 2021 now four years ago. Kinda crazy. Ah, okay. Um, and we, I, neither of us knew anything really heading into marriage. We had a couple of hints of, um, or Jess knew more than I did. Um, so she has multiple sclerosis is one of the many things that, um, she lives with. Um, she had a few hints, I guess before we got married, but we kind of didn't really explore that until afterwards. Um, and then, yeah, three months into being married newly Wes Jess, um, was also diagnosed with endometriosis. She's also got adenomyosis, which for the men out there is just a more severe version of endometriosis essentially. Um, two months after that. So five months into marriage, we then, she then got diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, um, which, um, is not a good combination with Endo. We've discovered over the last sort of four years or so. And then I suppose it's not, it's not something we actually talk about all that much, but it definitely plays a big part is that Jess is also celiac, fructose, intolerant and lactose intolerant, which in them, in themselves aren't overly bad. But I suppose when you whack the combo of those three together, um, and then you add on top of that the MS and um, endo and adenomyosis. Yeah, it's pretty full on, um, what she's got. So. I mean, yeah, anyone who listened to the episode where Jess shared her story, she's a bit of a trooper. Um, and I'm kind of the Ws in our family, which is kind of funny. Um, but yeah, she, she and her body and her mind do go through and have gone through a lot. Um, and I really admire the fact that she's still sane, I suppose, at this point in time. But, um, and Alex will attest to this as well. Our wives are crazy strong. Um, what they go through and, and as we mentioned before, Jess is pregnant at the moment, which is kind of crazy as well, considering all of her health things, but. I'm learning and Alex will know this better than I will. And so ubs that what a, a female's body goes through when they're pregnant and the things that they do and they put up with is just crazy. So

Shebu 11:42

yeah. I can hear a few ladies, ladies on the podcast going, amen. Amen. These guys know nothing. Yeah. Um, so Alex, you, you alluded to it earlier, maybe do you wanna touch on that a little bit about your dad passing away at a young age? Yeah, sure. What, what was that shaping you? You mentioned a little bit earlier.

Alex 12:01

Yeah. Yeah. So my dad, um, died of a heart attack, uh, at 46, um, at a bowling alley. Wow. He was a avid bowler every week. Um, he's got a bit of a plaque at the Keyon Park bowling alley. Oh, really? Okay. Fun fact. Um, and yeah, so him passing away sort of started that trajectory of us being invited along to a church for the first time. Uh, my mum was, uh. Greek Orthodox, Eastern European. Mm-hmm. That was whole, her whole world. Um, and my dad being Croatian, so my mom's Macedonian mm-hmm. Dad Croatian, um, Croatian's more Catholic. Mm-hmm. Um, so we had those two influences around Easter and Christmas. Mm. Where do we go for those holidays? Um, like which church do we visit? But um. Yeah, it was just not like, just random. Like we didn't really care, didn't think about it too much. But um, yeah, being invited along to church was great. Got that community, got that, um, sort of influence over my life, which was, um, at the time yeah, just your average sort of northern, um, north, north Melbourne experience mm-hmm. Experience. And we, yeah. Went along there for, um, yeah, a few years. Changed churches a couple of times and it wasn't until. I was probably about 18 that I understood the concept of grace and that was explained to me for the first time and got to really start taking faith and um, like intentional sort of, um, learning seriously for the first time. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I was kind of just a larrikin and still am really, but just a clown of a kid. Um, just. Searching for laughs everywhere I went. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it, I think discovering that at around 18 sort of, um, made me realize that, um, yeah, there's a purpose to life and there's um, you know, right ways and wrong ways to go about things and what is that? And that whole idea of turning 18 and manhood is, um, one of those things in. In Australian culture that doesn't really have a shape. Um, we sort of make it up as we go along and just, yep, we're, we're just figuring out as we go. Um, so I tried to take that really intentionally and, um, look at the men in my life and I was really fortunate that, that there was some men in my church growing up that took me under their wing and, um. Really generously spent time with me and, and showed me a lot. Um, and then I also volunteered as a lead tenant, um, in a house where they trusted me to run the house. How old were you? Which was crazy. I would've been 22. Okay. 21, 22. Um. Yeah, I was pretty young to be doing that and I had a house sometimes of three young people mm-hmm. Um, in juvenile justice setting, um, and all of the behaviors that go along with that. Wow. Um, and I was to be the, the stable person that was holding down the fort at home. Um, not disciplining, not any of that. Just a safe place to come back to and provide stability. Um, and it was great. Like I had a lot in common with those kids. And we got on like a house on fire and, um, we did some amazing things. We, we, um. Starting a small business is generous, but we started flipping furniture Okay. And finding purpose in working with our hands. And I was trying to show them the, the tools of my trade and, um, yeah, they, they showed me their experience and yeah, there's stacks of stories that come outta that. Oh sure. Um, so yeah, that's the sort of progression of, um, yeah. Learning from, from my mentors and then very quickly trying to apply that. Mm-hmm. Um, and then also realizing the more you learn, the more you realize you dunno. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah. Having kids is one of those things. That is another one of those big eye openers of Yeah, you can think you're sort of super intentional. Like I thought I was and then I realized, oh, I'm very easily dysregulated and I've got a lot more work to do in that department too. Mm.

Shebu 15:49

Um, so yeah, that's a bit, bit of a journey. Thanks for sharing that. I mean, for both of you, and either of you can jump in on this, um, when you, uh, talk about your wive's diagnosis and then also how the impact on you guys. What's been some of the things that you reflect back and think, okay, this was really deeply challenging.'cause you can't prepare for this, right? Like, it's not like, well I'm sure there's like manuals and podcasts, but, mm. In one sense you can't prepare for the everyday. What, what comes to mind when you guys think of some of the challenges that we might not be aware of or understand?

16:22

There's just so

Tim 16:23

much, there's so much you can talk about. Um, I think. You're, you're spot on in terms of you just can't be prepared for it. Um, and I think the thing that generally, at least if I was trying to share to people to get'em to understand the thing that people don't understand the most is the little things. There's so many little things that, um, happen that people just don't realize that come with, so Jess has got a, a disability in, in multiple sclerosis. So looking after someone with a disability, um. I'm technically, legally Jess's full-time carer. So first of all, there's a label there, right? Mm-hmm. Like someone I'm married to, someone who needs a full-time carer, which is kind of crazy. Um, and not at all to say that Jess can't look after herself, but I don't have kids yet, but I always try and, or I, I kind of imagine it's what it's like having a kid is I've got someone who is fully dependent on me to get through, dare I say, every day, let alone a week, um, at a time. So it's always little things like, um, I had to write it down because otherwise I'd forget. But, um, you know, if I get home from a, a big day at uni or work, whatever I've done for that day, generally I'm on cooking dinner.

17:32

Mm.

Tim 17:32

And then I'm on cleanup and then I'm on, you know, getting ready for the next day and, and all those sorts of things. And we're really fortunate that, um, because again, MS is a classified as a disability. We've got, um, support workers through the NDIS, which is an unbelievable system, although it has its flaws. And I know, I know people have. Different opinions about it. Um, for us it's been absolutely unbelievable in terms of what it's, the doors that it's opened, um, and the support that we have. Um, so things like that, um, have been helpful. But again, just going back to challenges specifically, um, early on and shoved, you know, this better than most, it really challenged our marriage. Like I said, we were five months married, um, when Jess got her MS diagnosis and probably for the first. 18 months to two years of our marriage, it was really, really challenging. Um, and not because Jess and I weren't good together, not because, you know, we weren't compatible or anything like that. It was purely because of, um, the conditions that we were kind of trying to live in because of Jess's health, um, which made things really, really difficult. There was, there was a lot of, you know, mm-hmm. To be honest, most of it came from me not wanting to sacrifice my choices and my time and my selfishness to look after my wife. Um, and I guess to set the scene on that, like before getting married, I was really, really fortunate to grow up in a Christian family. Like I've got two awesome parents who looked after me. My life was pretty easy, um, until I got married. Didn't really have many challenges other than a few sports injuries here and there. But, um. Coming up against all of a sudden I'm not, you know, the most important thing here. Mm-hmm. Like I've got a wife who needs me to, um, put her first and look after her. Not because she wants to necessarily, but because that's what her body is sort of demanding.

19:23

Mm-hmm.

Tim 19:23

Um, and so I found that really challenging to sort of let go of my autonomy and say, and dare I say, it's gonna get a lot worse when I have kids. Um. All of a sudden. Yeah, I, I really struggled with that. So, yeah, that's just a couple of things I suppose.

Shebu 19:39

That's helpful. You wanna answer that, Alex?

Alex 19:41

Yeah, I'd say that hits the money that yeah, hits the nail on the head. The, um, that concept of yeah, understanding and like having your own selfishness, that mirror shown in front of your face, um, that realization. Um, and I mean, our, our situation's not as significant and, and, um, severe as yours. In that, um, for two weeks of the month, my wife is able to pick up all of the, all of my gaps. Um, and then, yeah, it gets a little bit challenging from there. But, um, I'd say my learning's probably a little bit more around just your, your average marriage, um, and understanding that Kelly's, um, experience over her whole life has shaped, um, uh, a, a scenario in which she. Considers her social, emotional, physical safety, um, so much more than I do. Mm-hmm. Like, that's not something that I really think about day to day. Generally, when I'm in a space, I'm strong enough to survive. Uh, if a plan doesn't go to plan, I'll just pivot to the next thing. It doesn't really matter. Mm-hmm. Um, whereas Kelly, with all of the things that she has to consider, um, and yeah, month to month, the things that she, the extra things that she has to deal with in her mind, um, and in her body. Um, yeah, she clings to those plans. She, she feels more emotional about the things that, that are happening for her. Um, and I think my biggest learning has been realizing that just because I can pivot and be carefree doesn't mean that's gonna support her. Um, it's actually the opposite. It's gonna really stress her out and make things harder for her. Um, and. Those days when I get home from work and I'm tired and Yeah. I've, I've, I feel like I've given it a red hot go. Um, yeah, she, she starts the day like that. Okay. Um, and yeah, that's sort of been a, a learning over time and, um, yeah, adding kids, as you said to, to that scenario, they're like, Kelly won't ever, you know, take something I've done and then. Throw it in my face in a, in a big negative way, but oh gee, a toddler will like that. They'll, they'll take something you've done for them in kindness and, and yeah. Tell you that you've cut the toast wrong. So, um, yeah, that's been definitely a challenge. Um, and I'd say that the, the concept of like that manhood stuff that I was talking about before. Way that I shaped my idea of, um, my like work ethic and what I prided myself on as a young man. Um, that ability to get jobs done and all that sort of thing, or what I thought manhood was. Um, I. It goes out the window mm-hmm. When you have a wife that needs you to drop everything at a any moment. Mm-hmm. Um, I really struggled with that concept of being out in the yard, working on a project, and then having to put my tools down.

22:32

Mm-hmm.

Alex 22:33

And it would frustrate me. I'd be like, Ugh, but I'm doing something like, this is the thing that I should be able to do'cause I'm good at this. Mm-hmm. And yeah, re relearning that. The ultimate expression of love and my manhood and, and w whatever that might be, is actually abandoning all sense of my own expectations and just serving my wife. Um, and that concept of dying to self, to, to show her that, um, yeah, that is way easier in theory than practice. Mm. Yeah. It's really difficult.

Shebu 23:04

I mean, um, you guys have alluded to it maybe a bit more specific is as men of faith, as followers of Jesus, has that shaped. You guys, when you think about, uh, how do you see God working in the mess? Like, is it easy as, is it hard? Um,

Alex 23:22

you know, um, I'd say like my experience has been, it's been a progression. Yeah, it's been. Not that God's necessarily been revealing himself in a progression. I think God's revealed himself in, in a million ways, all at the same time. Mm-hmm. But my ability to perceive and catch onto what he's doing is very sort of, um, yeah, like very limited. Um, so. Yeah, I, I, I'd say pre-marriage, just total selfishness. And that motivation of infatuation with my wife was just like, it, it could, I, I could climb a mountain and do whatever just to impress her. Um, is that a song line? And then probably, um, and then yeah, moving into like marriage and pre-kids, I think that. It was very, um, like I look back at that time like I was asleep. Like everything was just going through the motions. We were just sort of doing it without really thinking about things too much. And we, we bought a house, we got married, obviously we made some big decisions and we, Kelly and I were talking about it the other week. We got, um, we were trying to get pregnant before we bought the house. Mm-hmm. Um, and then. Went through the process of of IVF and eventually had Caleb, but. If any of those dominoes fell in a different order, things could be a lot different to what they are right now. And we love our life at the moment. But um, yeah, we were kind of just drunk at the wheel. Like we didn't, we weren't really thinking. And I think for me, I attribute that back to probably being. 27 or under. Now, as a 34-year-old, I can look back at my undeveloped risk assessment brain as a man. And I know people talk about that, like, you know, it's a, it's a thing, but in hindsight now, I really see it. Like I did not think about consequences whatsoever. I just made silly decisions. Um. And I look back in retrospect, and I think that's been a lot of my testimony looking back, seeing God carrying me through a lot of risky times. Um, not for the purpose of just comfort and, um, my own sort of wealth and health, but the ability for me to sort of see him work and, and see the how close I came to sort of disaster. Um, even the way that Kelly and I got together, like I had, um. I had attempts to get close to Kelly over over many, many years. Okay. Um, and. That's another podcast. I was probably, yeah, it is probably another co podcast. But I tried probably a little bit too hard and that sort of freaked her out a little bit and I was a little bit too intense. Um, but the fact that she had grace to sort of step back and say, actually this guy might be worth giving a shot. Um, I attribute that to God's grace as well. Like there's, there's a lot of moments where I look back and God. Really took the wheel. Um,'cause I was not holding on a lot of the time. Um, so now I look, I look, I look at my life even with the difficulty of what we have. Um, it's,

26:37

it's, things are better than I could have ever have planned. Yeah. Oh wow. Absolutely powerful Tim.

Tim 26:44

Yeah. Surprise is a lot of overlap with, um, our answers. But I suppose to answer it a slightly different way, um. For sure. Obviously the, it's cool seeing how in every season of life, and I kind of mentioned before, the first sort of 18 months to two years of marriage for us was really, I look back and it was really dark kind of time. Um, I think without realizing it, I was probably in a really poor space mentally trying to deal with. Jess's diagnosis and the fact that it's a lifelong thing and the fact that theory, theoretically, this is the best she's ever gonna be because the disease gets worse and worse and worse. Um, and we'd actually been told that we weren't able to have kids either. Um, and so, um, that's another story as well. But just before Jess fell pregnant, we were two days out from starting IVF. Oh wow. Um, which is kind of crazy before we found actually pregnant, which is, um, just an absolute miracle in itself. But, um, mm-hmm. I suppose seeing that even in those, particularly those really dark times, looking back like God's no further away there than he is right now. And also he is no closer because he can't get any closer than, um, what he is all the time to us. Um, but the way that he just carries us. Through those seasons is, is kind of crazy. And a really big one for me is, um, God's provision. Um, I'm a very logistical, practical thinker as Shabu knows. And so for me it was like, what are we gonna do money wise, because Jess had to stop working and I needed to go back to study in order for us to make enough money to live. But I can't study because we can't afford to pay rent while I'm studying and all these things. And, um. God just provided like every single time. And he, and he continues to do that. Um, and not just financially, but like with practical help with people coming up and telling us that they're praying for us with, um, people coming too often sometimes and just asking how we are. And you know how that's kind of annoying sometimes and someone comes up, Hey, you going, I know, um, Jess absolutely loves it, but finds it really draining at the same time, but it's such a testament to, um, how God uses his people to care about. People in our community. Mm-hmm. Like, um, particularly people from Canterbury, obviously, that, um, have been, you know, cooking meals for me still, um, for like, what, three, four years now? Um. And just, yeah, checking in and, and hanging out and walking and journeying with us. And there's no obligation from them to need to do that. But, um, God has placed the right people in our lives at the right time, um, to be able to do that. Um, and then I suppose, yeah, to, to follow on with how we've grown through that or how God has grown us through that is just learning how to deal with, like I said, it, when you, it, it's hard for people to imagine, I suppose, if you've never been through it. If you are freshly married and you get told that your partner, husband or wife now has a, a disability that is, there's no cure, they're just gonna keep getting worse. Like their health is gonna decline pretty quickly. It ended up happening. It's, that is like, I had no idea and still wouldn't be able to tell someone how to actually deal with that. Mm-hmm. Um, but the fact that God takes that and goes, you don't actually need to. Worry about dealing with it because I got this and like we've seen it time and time and time again. Um, and one thing that I've also definitely grown with, sorry, I've got lots of answers to this question.

30:16

No, go, go, go. Is that,

Tim 30:17

um, it can be really easy, I guess when you, in my situation and, and, um, I suppose it's worth prefacing that. Just because that's the situation I'm in, it doesn't mean that it's any different in terms of how people react and the effect it can have on someone with any condition, with any, any chronic health condition, no matter how severe it might be. Um. That's another thing that God's taught me is that the worst thing that's happening to someone in a moment, in that moment is the worst thing that's happening to them, right? Mm-hmm. So like, whether it's a broken leg, whether it's they're having a bad day, whether it's their kids yelled at them, whether it's a a, a lifelong diagnosis for chronic health condition, like in the moment, that's the worst thing that's happening to that person. And I'm not a very empathetic person, but God has definitely taught me how to be more empathetic, um, because it's very easy to compare to our peers, I suppose, who. Life looks easier for them. Um, and it might be easier for them, but it's easier for them for a reason, and it's harder for us for a reason. But, um, like I said, God uses that to teach and to grow and to shape and to, um, yeah, just give you the tools that you need in order to a, get through the day for, um, yourself, but to be able to have a positive, hopefully a positive impact on others. Um, but yeah. I dunno if that answered the question. Now I just started rambling. I feel like

Shebu 31:38

No, no, no. Uh, I mean, what I'm hearing in both of you is you're seeing fingerprints of God involved in all the things that in hindsight, right? Mm-hmm. When you're in it, it's hard to sometimes when the noise is all around,'cause like you said before, Alex, you're just trying to survive sometimes. Yeah. You know, literally. Um, so, but you're seeing God's hand in it, which is. It's not rambling, Tim, you're just, you're really sharing what, what God's hand is in it. Um,

Alex 32:03

I I, I don't know if you feel this way or should be yourself, that like, at this point of, of your life and, and what you've seen God do for you and what you've had to deal with, that you really feel like God is giving you enough to learn from, but not enough that you can't handle it, sort of thing, like, or that he can't handle it. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. I, I feel like, and, and Kelly, Kelly and I have spoken about this a lot. We feel like what we've been through has been hard. Um, but it's been the sort of thing that, not that we wouldn't necessarily like not go through it if we didn't have, if we didn't have to,'cause we probably wouldn't. But we look back and say like, yeah, we, we clearly can see that God carried us through that and that we never had to sort of really, really stress sort of thing. Um, and I, I know that's kind of what you sort of touched on in a way, but. The, yeah. That concept of he doesn't give you more than you can handle. Um, yeah, I feel like I'm constantly testing that like, oh, is, is like, can I make another dumb decision? And he, and he carries me through it. Um, it's, yeah, crazy.

Tim 33:16

It's very true. And also like, give us today our daily bread. Like how real is that? When you, um, and again, I suppose for. When you are, anyone in your family has a, a, a chronic health condition, it's literally day by day. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes. Um, and so asking God to give us exactly what we need for that day and then getting to the end of the day and going, that's exactly what he did. And he does it time and time and time again. And you know, some days are harder than others in terms of that side of things, but at the end of the day, you're sitting there at the end of the day, Jess and I hard to often have dinner in front of the TV on the couch. And we sit there and we pray and we say. Lord, thank you for actually just giving us exactly what we needed for this day. Um, please do it again tomorrow. Um, and he does like every single time. And I, it's funny how, how often I, I don't know if you can relate to this, how often we doubt that. Mm. Um, and again, just using finance as a, as a, um, example for me.'cause I'm a practical thinker, like how often do I stress about money? And then we've never gone without. Money when we need it. Like you go through times where you don't have much, you go through times where you've got a little bit more than you need, but we've never actually had a moment in time where I've needed to pay a bill or something and not had the money to do it. And it's like for some reason my silly head goes like, oh, I'm stressing about money again. But God just provides, and he does it in different ways and he does it at different times. But yeah, stuff like that's really cool. I've kind

Alex 34:41

of, my experience is that. I don't work all that hard, like in my life. My, I put a lot of time and effort into my family and I've made conscious decisions every time I change jobs to work less hard and get more money. That's my like parameter for changing jobs. Um, and now we're at the point where I really feel the weight of. Wanting to be generous and like we've, we've got excess, we've got more than we need. Um, and my boys' life compared to my life growing up is like, I would've looked at them and been like, you brats, like you got everything. Um, and now I'm like, I'm really feeling the weight of like yeah, being generous and. Using what we have and like all of our money's tied up in like, you know, the house and whatever. But I'm just like, yeah, people over. And then after two hours of having people over, I'm like, get outta my house. And then the next day we're like more people over, like, come on. And yeah, I'm like, I'm just in a rollercoaster of that emotion of like just surviving, but also, oh, we've got too much share it and yeah, it's like just bipolar. Yeah, a lot.

Shebu 35:49

Well, I mean, you guys are sharing just the honesty and of, of life, right? Like as, as young and especially as men, uh, as follows of Jesus. Um, and, and if you're listening in, um, our grid work is that Jesus calls us as, um, men who love him, uh, to follow him and then to love our wives and our families. And as a, we take that as a serious responsibility. It's not something that, um, we see as easy or that can be hard as you've been hearing. And you're sharing that, like the burdens of that. It's not just something you just kind of go, it's all just proves along. If you guys were talking to your, say, go back in the time machine and you're talking to younger Tim and Alex, what are some key things that you might actually say, Hey, listen, why crypto?

Tim 36:37

I can't believe I, can I steal that answer? Yeah, like crypto,

Shebu 36:40

uh, we are not endorsing any kind of cryptocurrency. Oh, man. That's hilarious. Um, uh, I've lost my, what, what would you say to yourselves, uh, going back, besides what Alex said, perhaps in relation to, um, what it means to be a godly masculine man? You mentioned that a couple of times, Alex, that might be helpful. Yeah, just in, in what does it mean to love your wife and your contacts, Alex, uh, with the kids as well.

Alex 37:07

Um, I'd probably say your role as a man versus Kelly's role as a woman is not that you are Jesus and she has to serve you. Um, because I know some people initially think that way, and I, it initially started for maybe a few weeks. That was my initial. Concept of, of, of manhood as I was piecing it all together. Um, but that everything that it means to be a woman as opposed to a man is the immediately more difficult version of that thing. If you place them next to each other, you just line'em up thing to thing. Um, yeah, the, the female experience is, is the harder one. Um, so therefore that concept of, of dying to self and serving your partner, um, has to look like. Actual sacrifice and it, it, it's gonna be difficult and be prepared for that because I think I went into marriage just, oh, this, this is a fun thing to do. Mm-hmm. This is nice. Um, yeah, it was not at all sort of thinking about that. Um, the book, um, by Tim Keller, meaning a Marriage really sort of shifted my thinking on that. Um, and I'd recommend that to any young person. Um, pre-marriage.

38:22

Um. And I, I guess, yeah,

Alex 38:29

just the concept of having an open mind, um, about everything. Um, the moment you start thinking, you know, everything is when it all falls apart. Um, and, and having a close knit group of people you can share with, um, having a network and not doing it alone. Um,'cause I've realized that. As much as we, you know, we're, we're sitting here talking out of our own experience, um, that I guess in some ways are unique, but realizing they're not actually like every one of our friends in our friendship groups, they're all average People could sit here and say all the same things. Um, everyone's going through it, everyone's going through something.

39:09

Mm.

Alex 39:09

Um, so being able to share that and have others share with you, um, yeah, it's huge. Really beneficial. Helpful. Thank you. Mm, Tim.

Tim 39:19

Yeah. Um, I love that idea of master. You're never gonna master it. Learning how to die to self sooner is probably a big one for me. Um, uh, in order to put your wife first, because that is exactly what marriage, um, as a man, um, and as a woman is, is dying to self and serving your spouse. Um. And it's so easy to talk about and so hard to do, and, um, it's certainly something that's gonna take me a lot longer to master. And then another thing is, um, actually something that Steve Mc Alpine said who is an author from WA Shops. Is that mm-hmm.

Shebu 39:52

Oh, well he's now in Sydney. There you go. He's moved to the, um, apparently much better. City tells me so. Not as, as Melbourne, but, um, I agree. Yeah.

Tim 39:59

Um, he came, this was years ago and did a a, a men's talk, um, here at Canterbury Gardens. And one thing that stood out that he was talking about, which was just about. Fatherhood was showing up and being present. Um, and it's, everyone's wired slightly differently, but one thing that I've certainly learned about my wife is that being present and being there with her. She's so much more important than doing something for her.

40:26

Ooh.

Tim 40:27

Um, that's good. It's so much more important. Um, and Jess and I are wired very differently because I don't, it sounds like you're the same. Alex, my version of servanthood is, I'm gonna do this for you. I'm gonna do this for you, and I'm gonna, you know, do the dishes. I'm gonna do the garden. I'm gonna cook, I'm gonna do everything. I'm gonna do it, but. That's not what she needs. Mm-hmm. Like what she needs is for me to, and I to just, I'm saying I'm not very good at this, so I'm something I'm still learning.

Shebu 40:50

You, you, aren't you writing a book next week? Yeah. Gee.

Tim 40:54

Um, yeah. It's just being there, just being present with her. Mm-hmm. Um, and talking to her and listening to her, and usually keeping my mouth shut when there's issues and problems that come up because they don't, she doesn't want answers. She doesn't want me to solve the problem. She just wants me to be there. Um. Yeah, that's something that I would tell a, a younger Tim, particularly in the first few years of marriage, is just learned how to be there and listen. Right. Absolutely.

Alex 41:22

I, I found that, I caught onto that concept a while ago, but it didn't, um, come naturally to me. Um, as you've sort of alluded to that we sort of are wide differently. But the thing that helped me with that was. Learning about, um, autism in the context of my school. Um, and the way that we, in order to get, uh, a, a young person that's fixated on something or in their dysregulation, um, in, in order to get them out of that or away or, um, pivoting to something else, you sort of need to get into it with them in order to direct them and sort of guide them through that. Um, and I've found that. Um, concept to be helpful and like, it, it sort of helps me be mindful to get into the scenario with my wife sometimes. Yeah, it's very easy to be like, oh, you are in that, I'm over here. That's not that bad. Like, just think about it. Just come over here. Um, but she doesn't need that. She needs me to actually get in there and see how difficult it is, um, and acknowledge that in a way that she understands. Um, and then only then she can be like, okay, he, he gets it. I feel safe enough that. I'm not just dismissed or, um, yeah, he, I, I think Kelly really worries sometimes that I don't actually mean what I say and that I'm just paying lip service to her discomfort. Mm-hmm. Um, so if I can find a way to actually be in there and show some emotion, um, then yeah, she's able to sort of move on, um, or continue to stay in it, um, in whatever way. But, um. Yeah, that's been the thing that's sort of helped me wrap my head around it, that idea of getting into it in order to get through it. Um,'cause yeah, I think my personality type is quite avoidant. I grew up with a mum with, um, depression and um, bipolar, um, and I just had a view of, um, women as from Venus and I'm from Mars, and we just don't, don't mix. Um, and. I had to make sure that I wasn't, um, early on, very mindful, don't just marry to have another mom that's gonna look after me. That, um, was a very sort of, um, yeah, in intentional mindset of mine. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's funny. How much I was trying to do that in the right way and then still accidentally went about it the wrong way. Um, and probably still at times absolutely do it the wrong way. And those different levels of, um, exhaustion and all of that play into that. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, if I'm tired, I'm not, I'm not as quick to jump into Kelly's issues. Yep. Um, but yeah, when I think clearly get some time for myself, um. I'm able to do that a little bit better. Mm.

Tim 44:11

Isn't it funny as well, like, that's exactly what Jesus does for us. Mm-hmm. Like, he doesn't sit there and he lived a perfect life and say, come on, join me. Like chop, chop kind of thing. He comes to us and meets us where we're at, which is again, he, he models exactly what he wants or what we should be doing with our wives. Um. Which is, like you said, getting in that space and meeting, um, us, which is what he does to us, uh, where we're at. Um, and it works surprise, surprise. It works like mm-hmm. He just modeled it and it works kind of thing. Um, yeah. I always find that when you, when you said that, I was like, oh, that's funny. Exactly what you showed us to do. Like Yeah. Yeah.

Alex 44:50

And, and, and in a lot of ways that concept of, of what Jesus does, it's. It's not gendered like Kelly does it just as much, um, if not more, like way more. She lives through the pain and is gracious with me so much more than I am with her. Um, and she's incredible in that way and I'm trying to bring an element of consistency in that hers might be quite up and then quite down. And, and she's dealing with what she's dealing with. Um. And I'm just trying to bring a baseline of what that looks like for her, um, and for the kids. Um, and I suppose that's the only difference for us. Yeah.

Shebu 45:33

Um, gentlemen, I mean, uh, I'm gonna wrap this up soon, but, um, I guess the question I have is really, uh, is there anything else that you would love to add before I wrap up?

Tim 45:45

I had something before, but now I've forgotten.

Shebu 45:48

Is it written down or No?

Tim 45:50

I can't. I don't think so. I did wanna say early on that, um, I feel like I've got a bit of imposter syndrome being a young person that is, you know, newly, still newly married, four years married, and still pretty fresh into our health journey. Um, if you put a timeline on that and then trying to share our experiences, but I mean, that's all we're doing right, is sharing our experiences and hopefully, um, saying something that might be relatable to someone. Um, um, but one of the, I, I suppose one of the biggest things, that's what I was gonna say before. Um, that has been helpful for me as an individual, um, throughout, particularly, um, since Jess was diagnosed, was having, I, I'm really fortunate to have a lot of older mentors, um, who look out for me regularly and who I catch up with regularly, who pray for me, who, um, you know, pull me into line when it needs to happen, which is fairly regularly. Um, and just offer life and, and just walk with me in my, in my journey. Um. I know this is such a cliche thing to say, but like for anyone who, and it doesn't really matter what age you are, find someone who is willing to do that with you, um, because it's so important and, and we found it and we still find it really hard to find someone who understands exactly our situation. That's okay. Um, because people will do whatever they can to try and understand and, um, exactly what we were saying before, them trying to meet us at our level and, um, journey alongside us. But yeah, I suppose that's been so, so important for me. I, I would be a completely different person if it wasn't for the, um, dare I say, hundreds of people who have spoken into my life, including my parents. Mm-hmm. And just, yeah, pointed me back to Jesus when it's been needed, which again, is very regularly. Um, it's every single day. Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm so fortunate and thankful to God for each of those people, um, because that has been massive for me. Mm.

Shebu 47:49

Great. Anything for you, Alex, before,

Alex 47:51

um, oh, I just wanna say that I'm so thankful for this whole church community and UBS and everyone, um, yeah. What we've sort of. Been doing over the last sort of four years, um, as a family has really been supported and, and bolstered by the work of the church and, um, our young families group that we get to participate in. Um, we're definitely in a season of, um. Just consuming in a way. Like we're, we're, you know, we come in and we're out to the toilet for one kid and then, you know, getting snacks for another and naps. Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's chaos. Um, but the fact that we get to do that and then we're met with so much grace and support, um, it's, yeah, it's amazing. Um, and then, yeah, every second Saturday we have a small family's, um, young families, small group that. We get to show the kids what it looks like to live in community together and worship and, um, yeah, we just, we love it. Um, and we realize, I, I was chatting with a mate who's, um, just in, is involved in another church, but he's in the same life stage, but they don't have that. Um, and I'm just realizing how. Yeah, how valuable that is and yeah, how thankful we are that we have that. Um, and Kelly went through a real stage of, um, I suppose not feeling connected in church. Um, especially being a young mom. Um, yeah, you're so distracted. You're always 30 seconds away from a distraction of someone pulling on you on your shirt. Um, and. Now we're really at a point where we're so connected, um, and she's really loving the community. Um, and I just, yeah, couldn't be happier, um, with where we're at with that. So yeah, it's really thankful. So thanks jus I'll give you the cash later. Um, I thought of another

Tim 49:33

thing to say as well actually. Um, and it's more, give it to me

Alex 49:36

in crypto. That'd be good.

Tim 49:38

And 10 years ago, um. Mine's a serious thing. I wanna say, sorry. Come on guys. Come on. Um, no, it's more, it's more just something that, um, is worth people being aware of.'cause I know that Jess always downplays her health when she talks to people. Mm-hmm. And, and she did when she was on the podcast. But, um, people that have, I suppose, visible but mainly invisible disabilities, um, is to try and show as much grace to those people as possible, because. What those guys go through. Um, like I said earlier, is just crazy. Like I am so impressed that Jess is still sane and that she's still, she doesn't always get up every morning, but most mornings when she can get up, um, she gets up and puts a brave face on and tackles the day. Um, whatever that looks like, but. One of the real hard things that for us is we miss out on heaps of stuff. Um, we miss out on so many events, um, because, um, Jess's not well enough to do it, um, is the, the blunt answer. Um, and it really sucks. So we've missed out on weddings and parties and, um, get togethers and we, we, you know, might make it to church once every second week at the moment, um, and things like that. But, um, and again, that's not unique to us. It's to. People, anyone who lives with a chronic health condition. And so, yeah, I, I suppose just, I just encourage people to get around those people as much as you can, and it's, it can be so hard to know how to do that. And I get that. But, um, those people are often really good if you message them straight up and ask them, say to'em, be honest to me. Like, do you want to catch up? Do you need some help with this? Whatever the case may be, they're really good at, because they're used to it and they have to be. Just giving you a blunt, straight answer, um, of, yes, no, want to catch up, I'm not well enough. Whatever the case may be. I can't make it to this event. Whatever the case may be. Um, yeah, like. Try and do, try and go the extra mile. It sounds really bad me saying this. Do try and go the extra mile to help those guys because, um, it's needed and it can be so encouraging just to know that someone cares, um, and their messaging just to have you involved. And o often when we get asked to be involved in stuff, the answer has to be no because, um, like I said, unfortunately Jess can't do it, but to know that people still want you there, um, and they still care, is really cool and it's really encouraging for that person as well. So. Hmm. Um, yeah, I think it's something that's really important.

51:56

That's good.

Shebu 51:57

You've been hearing, uh, two stories and, and both Alex and Tim are sharing from their perspective and particularly if there's anything that's kind of medical related, that's just their stories not to be taken as, uh, advice in that sense. Um, so there are resources that I'll put in the show notes regarding places that you can go to that would be helpful. Um, but the other thing I, we just wanna, I just wanna say is that what you're hearing at the underneath all of this is as, uh, Tim shared earlier, is because of Christ. He's our wonderful, beautiful, glorious picture of what it means to truly die to self. And, uh, as men, that's our focus and vision and hope. But then he also says through the helper, he will enable us to do that. Uh, and that sometimes means fumbling our way through. And, um, both these men are really just sharing really God's grace. Uh, if you haven't picked that up, really at the end of the day. I'm just wondering if I could either get both of you to pray or one of you to pray, maybe both of you to pray, would that work? Yeah, sure. Yeah, definitely. Go for it. Alright.

Alex 52:55

Heavenly Father, we, um, yeah, we just thank you for the opportunity to meet together and, uh, yeah, talk about our experiences and we just ask that, um, yeah, you make the ears that are listening, um, yeah. Open to, to hearing what you are trying to communicate through us. Um, and. Thank you for our experiences as, as difficult as they've been at times and as joyous as they've been at times. Um, it was, thank you that we've, um, played some sort of role in, um, yeah, in your, your story that you are making through us. And, um, yeah, we just want to, um, be the best versions of husbands, um, and fathers and whatever we are in our context, uh, for your glory.

Tim 53:42

Yeah. Lord, we just thank you for, um, this time and opportunity, as Alex said, just to share and, um, I guess be honest. Um, and Lord, I really thank you that regardless of situation or health or um, financial status, whatever the case may be, that you continue to be with us, um, every single one of us and you walk. Alongside us. Um, and that distance can never get any further, um, because you promise that you'll be with us, um, no matter where we are and no matter the situation. And yeah. Um, I really just wanna pray and particularly Lord for husbands and wives, um, who might have family members. With chronic health stuff, whether it be kids or their partners or parents, um, who they are looking after and trying to care for and trying to understand and listen to. Lord, I just pray for patients and for energy and for a servant heart. Um, for those people in particular, um, I pray Lord that you'll reenergize them, um, and fill their thoughts with you, um, and fill their words with you and fill their actions with you, um, so that we can. I guess show your love through what we do, um, and how we look after, um, uh, the people around us and our families and friends. Um, and Lord, yeah. I just really thank you for our community that we have at Canterbury Gardens for, um, our church family for the way that, um, we're living and striving to live in the community that you have designed us to live in. Um, so yeah, I just pray that you'll go before us. Um. Yeah. Until SHOs is back on the air again, that you'll keep us safe. You know my pray. Amen.

Shebu 55:19

Amen. Amen. Well, friends, thanks for joining us and there'll be some, uh, links to show, uh, in the show notes there for you. And if you're listening to this podcast, 10 years down the track, as Alex said, crypto, no, don't do that. Blessings Chat to you soon.