Singleness and Gods Design - A conversation with Dr. Danielle Treweek & Dr. Rhys Bezzant

Singleness. What is God's purpose when it comes to singleness? Is there a purpose? Are we missing out? How can the Church grow in this area of mission and ministry? 
Shebu got to chat with Dani and Rhys, who are both followers of Jesus and happen to be single. 

They share their stories and reflections regarding God's design around singleness. 
Resources to Check out:

Dani's website: https://www.danielletreweek.com/
Single Minded: https://singleminded.community/
Books written by Rhys:
Edwards the mentor: https://www.amazon.com.au/Edwards-Mentor-Rhys-S-Bezzant/dp/0190221208

Standing on their shoulders:https://www.amazon.com.au/Standing-Their-Shoulders-Heroes-Faith-ebook/dp/B00WAKXLOA
Jonothan edwards and the Church:https://www.amazon.com.au/Jonathan-Edwards-Church-Rhys-Bezzant/dp/0199890307

Want to know more about CGCC? Just head to our website: https://www.cgcc.org.au/

Transcript

Shebu 0:01

Well, good day everyone. Welcome to Canterbury Gardens Community Church podcast. My name is Shabu. I have the joy of serving as one of the pastors at Canterbury. We are a church in the outer east of Melbourne. We love Jesus, and we would love for people to get to know Jesus and live for Jesus in this world. And this podcast is to, um, serve our community, but also we want to actually serve the wider church community and others who might be exploring the Christian faith. So thanks for checking us out and like you, like I say, most podcasts now that you've come across thinking that this is a gardening show, I apologize, it's not. Even though our name makes it sound like it, uh, I've got two wonderful guests with us. Um, uh, uh, Danny and Reese. Now we've, they're both doctors is what I found out. Uh, and so, uh, should I officially say Welcome Dr. Reese and welcome Dr. Thank you, Danny. Thank you. I'm really

Dani 0:50

glad this is not a gardening show because I would be on the wrong show if that was the case.

Shebu 0:57

Um, so Danny, the one thing I do need to ask you Yeah. Um, before we go into who you guys are and what you do, uh, how do you actually say your last name? Yeah, because that's something I've been practicing all week and I was even now sitting there going, I should say Daniela, to to, and I just stopped.

Dani 1:14

It's, um, you know, it's really funny. I spent. At least I think the first 45 years of my life with no one asking me that. And the last two years is it, it's, yeah. Yeah. Which, and I appreciate the question. Um, I always say, look, I'm not precious how it comes out. Um, but it's, it's Tru week. Tru week. Tru Week. Okay. Um, it's Cornish actually, ah, TRE, um, is generally a pretty good sign that, um, you've come from Cornwall at, at some point. Okay. We came from Cornwall. To Sydney via New Zealand. Oh, I took a bit of a detour. There you go.

Rhys 1:46

I worked in Kmart nearby here in Boronia, and my boss in the appliance department was Mrs. Trining. And Mrs. Trining was a good Cornish woman. Yeah.

Shebu 1:56

Yeah. Oh, okay. So re you mentioned that really briefly. So you, you, uh, well, how do you say your last name is? Bezant? I

Rhys 2:02

answer to most things, but Bezant. Yeah.

Shebu 2:05

Okay. And has that got a, some sort of heritage? It's probably Cornish. Okay.

Rhys 2:08

Really? That's, that's become Welsh. My father was from Wales. Okay. And so the name has probably come from Brittany in the north of France via Cornwall. So lots of places in Cornal that have Zeds in them, like Penzance. Okay. You can hear the similarity between Bezant and Penzance. Ah, and then to South Wales, where my father grew up.

Dani 2:28

I was in Penzance earlier this year. I was there for about 40 minutes before I, I see. I parked the car, started walking and went, Hmm, I don't feel safe here. I think it was just. Uh, yeah, that's probably, if you're listening from Prince of Penance, I'm sure it's a lovely place, but tall hour listeners out there, but it was Sunday and everything was closed and I parked in what felt like a pretty dodgy part of town. And I went, I think, I'm just going to say I've see, I've done penance and head outta town.

2:59

Oh, well

Shebu 3:00

my name, my last name is John, and it's very confusing for people. Yes, of course. That's for another podcast maybe. Yes. Um, so, uh, maybe, maybe we'll start with you, Reese. Who are you during the week? Yes.

Rhys 3:12

Uh, I work at Ridley College, which is just in the zoo, uh, in Parkville at morning Tea. You can hear the Borneo Gibbons having their morning tea or the lions roar for a quiet night. Okay. I've taught there for the longest time as a lecturer, and this year I've become the principal. So my job is to, uh, find students originally to make sure that we're staying on track. Uh, teaching, well, yeah. Training people effectively for Christian service. Okay. Do you have

Shebu 3:39

a particular area that you love teaching?

Rhys 3:42

So, I have a specialty yes. Which is Jonathan Edwards and the 18th century revivals. But I like teaching whatever it is. I'm happen to be teaching at that moment. I kind of get immersed in, in the moment and think that what I'm saying at the moment, or the topic I'm dealing with is the best ever. But my research has all been on Jonathan Edwards and. What he thinks of the church or what he thinks of the kingdom of God or what he thinks of mentoring.

Dani 4:07

Okay,

Shebu 4:07

great. Uh, and Danny, who are you during the week?

Dani 4:10

I'm still Danny during the week. Um, uh, but, uh, yeah, this is always such a tough question for me'cause every week is a bit different to the one before. Uh, so I used to be Danny, the women's minister. Mm-hmm. I, for many years was working in an Anglican church in Sydney, uh, largely doing women's discipleship and training. Um. Then I went off to do, uh, rather unexpectedly a PhD. Thinking I would go back to being a women's minister somewhere, but that hasn't quite been what God's had in store. So I'm still trying to work out actually what God has me doing at the moment. But I spend two days a week working for the Sydney Anglican Diocese as the Esan Research Officer, which means I work with a few of the diocese and organizations and individuals. Mainly in kind of thinking through key ethical matters. Sometimes there's government inquiries on, you know, various key ethical issues that they want, we need to write submissions for. So two days a week I do that. I direct a ministry called Single-Minded Ministry. Uh, the rest of my time is spent kind of, well, trying to find time to read and not really finding a lot of time to read, but, um, writing, um, speaking, meeting up with people for coffee. Well, I don't drink the coffee. I drink the chai, but they drink the coffee. Um, and, and talking about Jesus essentially. Um, particularly thinking about, uh, my kind of area of specialty is certainly singleness, but also more broadly. Kind of relational theology. What does it mean for us to be relational creatures and how does that get expressed in all sorts of different ways?

Shebu 5:41

That's great. Well, that might give, it's a perfect segue actually. So, um, you mentioned the topic of singleness. Um, so a bit of context for me. So I grew up in a pretty conservative Jesus lobbying church background. And from a very young age, we were told like, you can only have true meaning till you get married.

6:01

Mm.

Shebu 6:02

So this idea of singleness and, you know, uh, even having value in in the eyes of Christ and the free Kingdom work was something, a newer thing I feel like almost discovering now. So maybe for, from both of your perspectives, when you think about the word singleness, what do you see is, um, kind of mini history of the, the church and, and what, how we've handled it as a church and then. I guess what we seeing now, what would be of great value to both just the local churchmen people in our church?

Dani 6:36

You wanna go first, Reese?

Rhys 6:37

Yeah, I can go first. Uh, so I think when I was first a Christian as a teenager, there were assumptions that everyone would be married. I think that was pretty common, and it probably is still the case that the majority of people marry as. I think a third of Australia lives as a single. Okay. But that could be that they have married, their spouse has died, they've been divorced, and so on. So there's a whole lot of single people out there. My story is that I'm, I'm single, I'm same-sex attracted, and that's been an extra dimension to singleness, working out what that means in terms of Christian fellowship. Where do I get my support from? How do I. Think about my life of obedience. Mm-hmm. I must say I've, I've found churches be extraordinarily supportive and I don't have any really negative stories to report, but I did feel the subtle pressure sometimes to be married as people would line me up with their grandkids or something, and a granddaughter. Um, that, that has happened over the years. Yeah.

Shebu 7:40

Okay. Okay. Danny, anything you'd add to that?

Dani 7:42

Um. Well, I think, you know, uh, um, so Reese's story is in many ways very similar but different to mine. Um, I'm not same sex attracted, I'm opposite sex attracted, and I think I just grew up expecting that I would get married. But, uh, that hasn't yet been the case. Um, who knows what God has in store. Hopefully there's a few more years ahead that he might have some surprises, but if he doesn't, um, I've really, I'm very thankful that, particularly I think over the last 20 years or so, he's, uh. Helped me to really find or to learn contentment in singleness. Hmm. Like Reese, I don't have personal horror stories, you know? Um, uh, though there has been this sort of subtle pressure, though, I think now that I'm a doctor of singleness, nobody's dares dares to think that they could set me up with anybody anymore. Um, uh, but, uh, you know, I, it's interesting talking, you know, sort of zooming the conversation out a bit, a bit further, kind of how churches thought about this over the long term. This topic of singleness and marriage has just been like a bit of a pendulum, and the pendulum just keeps swinging wildly from one, you know, end of the arc to the other throughout church history. And it's rarely kind of settled nicely in the middle. Um, where we're actually able to, um, I think, reflect the Bible's teaching on this, that marriage and singleness are both good at the same time, and they're not competitors to each other, but they're compliments to each other in God's plans.

Shebu 9:07

So if someone was listening in, perhaps they've grown up in Christian worldview or not, um, might say, well guys, why do you wanna, you know, limit yourselves and just go the, the narrative might be go live it out. You know, why is the Christian worldview a good worldview, uh, in our season of singleness without a choice or not, or, you know, yeah.

Rhys 9:33

Yes.'cause that's the pressure around us, right? That you're not authentic unless you've expressed yourself. I think that might be the common assumption. However, we all know that we can't just express ourselves all the time exactly as we won't, right? Because we just hurt people when we do. I think the case with, uh, for me at least, is that I would. God's economy hurt myself. If I decide to pursue a same-sex relationship, that would actually be not healthy for me because God has built into our lives a moral grain. There's a certain way of living that helps us to have a smoother life. And there's certain ways of living that bring splintering and fracture and like. Plaing, any piece of wood, you have to discover what, where the grain lies and plain with the grain rather than against the grain. And I think that's the, the case for human sexuality, that God has designed it to be expressed in a certain way, at certain times. And to not accept that cosmic shape, that cosmic pattern is ultimately to do ourselves harm. I just have to, I've just had to believe that. If this is the way that Jesus has taught as I believe he has in Matthew's gospel, for example, then he's going to provide all my needs and he'll provide'em in ways I don't necessarily, uh, predict or imagine. Uh, but that he won't leave me uncared for or discontent. That's great.

Dani 11:13

And I think we can see, you know, we've now lived about 60 years in Western society, certainly here in Australia. Following the sexual revolution of, you know, we should be free to do whatever we want to do with our bodies. To actually see that the, the promises of that, or that were made about that have not come to fruition at all. We, we live in a time and place where people are more anxious

11:37

mm-hmm.

Dani 11:37

More lonely. Mm-hmm. More fearful about all sorts of things related to, um, sex, sexuality, body relationships, all these things. Um, that, you know, I, I think, hmm. I think the gig is up a little bit. It's just about how long we as a society will continue to pretend, uh, that we can ignore it. Um, and I think the other thing, just to say so much of these conversations rightly, sort of focus on, well, as Reese was saying, you know, what, what is God's been, God's design for humanity and therefore what is um, going to be? Best for me, uh, you know, as a kind of individual to, to flourish as a, an individual human being. The other thing that I, I feel we don't talk about often enough in, um, certainly coming from a Christian view from the Bible is that this is also about how we love other people too. Um, you know, I've been spending some time in one Thessalonians recently, and in chapter four I

12:31

was

Dani 12:32

talking about sex and sexual morality. And it's really fascinating to see that a key aspect of what he's talking about there is actually how, how is what you are doing with your body and your desires, honoring other people, loving other people, um, or dishonoring and harming them. Uh, and I think that's, yeah, it's, it's, it's a. Another aspect of this conversation that I don't think we actually recognize enough either in the Christian or non-Christian world,

12:59

is that this

Dani 13:00

is not just about ourselves. It's about our relationships with the people and how we use our body in a way, um, that respects that other person, as I believe as a Christian, someone who's made in the image of God.

13:11

Mm-hmm.

Rhys 13:12

And how we're feeling in the moment is not the best way of imagining what's best for my life. You can feel something passionately. In the moment, but that's not necessarily a sign of something that's healthy or that's sustainable. Uh, I think we need to lean into the scriptural patterns. And you're right. Uh, the age group in Australia today that is most lonely is not the shut-ins who, who are unwell or, or feeble. It's 18 to 24 year olds that just. It just shocks me. It just shocks me. Magic is really, is it's, yeah. Yeah. And, and therefore, what a fantastic role the church has, which is in some circles might be the only community that people actually could feel part of and loved in and supported.

Shebu 14:07

Yeah. Do you, do you think that, is that a more of a newer thing that's happened that you've observed in our Australian culture, or is that. Um,

Dani 14:17

I think from, from what I've been able to gather, it's pretty widespread across Western culture. Okay. Um, it's got a lot to do with, uh, the fracturing of embodied in-person relationship, particularly through social media and all sorts of things. You know, there, there's data that says that that kind of age group. Um, are having, well, in one sense the data is a bit encouraging'cause it suggests that actually, um, sexual activity amongst those in that age group is actually on the decrease. And you might think, oh, well that's encouraging that. Maybe there's kind of been a realization that was missing for the last 60 years. But actually what we're seeing is that the use of porn is massively. Normalized within that age group. And so even that kind of this, their sexual desires and activities being turned very much inward in that sense as well and is contributing, or at least it's probably a reflection of the relational isolation Mm. Um, that many young people are feeling. You know, the sociologists are talking about us being in western society in an epidemic of loneliness.

15:25

Mm-hmm.

Dani 15:25

Uh, yeah. It's awful.

Shebu 15:27

Yep. It's interesting you say that because even in our city we're part of, there's sort of a bit of research going on about groups and what kind of groups there, and it is this need for groups that are not, it's, it's more about social engagement and social, um, community. Groups. Uh, even last week I noticed obviously shows the kind of algorithms on my phone. Uh, was this ad came up where it was a dad's group, my age group, uh, you know, wanting to start up a just hang out time. They go and, you know, push the pram and just hang out. And I'm thinking to myself, where's this coming? Like, this is new to me. Like, yeah. Yeah. It feels significantly strange. So with that and, and I guess from a Christian world view, we talk about how the church is the hope and the local church perhaps and, and the church in general. What's been your reflections in your specialties in regards to, um, singleness? Do you see where is the church can be hope, where the things that we can keep kind of growing in and developing?

Rhys 16:32

I think those same folk, 1824. I probably might be, well be experiencing loneliness in some of their circles, but I think they're also less compelled by the vision of married life is gonna solve all the problems. And I certainly think that that generation is less concerned or anxious when people say they're same sex attracted or gay. They're much more comfortable with it than. Than my parents would've been or that I would've been growing up. Those are really positive signs, uh, where people are interested in your story. They won't ask questions right. About how you've managed and how you've done things, but there's much less anxiety about those issues. There might be lots of anxiety in their life. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, for their future, buying a house, getting education or something. In those issues at least I think there's a little bit more openness to, to a different pathway for others, if not for themselves.

17:39

Hmm.

Dani 17:41

Yeah. And I think, um, you know, um, you might wanna bring us back to the church'cause I think we're both still sort of riffing off a little bit here. That's okay. Uh. Now I've gotta get back my train of thought. Having interrupted myself. Um, I think one of the things, you know, as the sort of marriage and fertility rates are dropping in, in Western societies and certainly in Australian society, there can be a, I think, a natural inclination for people to think it's because people don't value marriage. The young people don't value marriage. They just wanna live kind of self-indulgent life for themselves. Actually, what the. Data starting to come in is telling us is that it's, it's actually that people are, you know, Risa said there might be lots of other things anxious about. There is an anxiety amongst gen, a younger generation, that marriage can't give them what they want. They've seen marriages in their parents and their grandparents. Generations fall apart. We've seen broken families, many of them are a product of broken families themselves, and so there's a sense of hopelessness that, you know. That if they put all their eggs in this basket, it's, it's going to fail them. And they might really long for that. Mm-hmm. But there's an particularly I think about amongst young women, there is a real anxiety about that. And so the church, I think is able in, in two senses to kind of address that anxiety, um, by pointing back towards firstly the, the biblical vision of marriage and the good thing it is, uh, the good relationship it's called to be the way, it's meant to be characterized by love and commitment. Um, through challenge, uh, that is not actually about, you know, personal fulfillment, um, but is ultimately about loving another person well. But the other thing I think the church is able to offer is to actually show, well, you're right, marriage isn't the ultimate thing. It, it doesn't need to be ultimate thing. There is a life of meaning and relationship and freedom that can be found. Um, and when I say freedom, I mean. Jesus type freedom that can be found in actually living the unmarried life, um, as a disciple of Christ in the community of his people. It doesn't need to be an either or. We can actually honor both of these situations and see both of them as meaningful while kind of allaying the anxieties and the fears that people might have in either of those realities if it was to be their long-term. One good.

Shebu 20:01

You mentioned a, a phrase there that I want to maybe unpack a bit more, which is, uh, Jesus type freedom. Yeah. What, what is that, what does that actually mean? What does that look like? Um, I'd be curious to, well,

Dani 20:14

I, I can have a go and then Reese can correct me. Um, you know, I think we tend to think of freedom as being free to do, being able to do whatever we wanna do. You know, it's about. No boundaries, no rules. We just get to choose what we think is going to be best for us and make it happen. Um, you know, Jesus has said he's come, uh, to bring freedom. You know, if the sun sets you free, you are free indeed. Um, the freedom that Jesus has, um, uh, given us freedom from sin and the consequences of sin, the judgment of God is actually freedom to live as he has intended us to live. To live, as Reese said, with the grain of his design for humanity, rather than just to make up our own grain. That actually, that that is not constriction, um, that's not restraint and limitation. It's actually helping us to experience that, the true freedom of what it is to have been made in his image and um, in relationship with others. But I don't know what resource to that. That's great. That's fantastic.

Rhys 21:16

Yeah. Yeah. There's a freedom. In knowing Christ intimately and Christ knowing me intimately, and that is the foundation of all my Christian life in a sense, right? That, that I'm not, I don't hide things from him. He gives to me abundantly and knows my needs better than I know my needs and supplies them, even when I don't recognize that he's supplying them. So that's a, a foundation in life, which helps me to live abundantly, uh, a good life. A, a prospering life. An abundant life because of the closeness of the Lord to me by his spirit and through the scriptures. So I, I love my prayers. I love praying. Read the scriptures. People say to me, what's the secret of being an old man and, and keeping us a Christian, keeping on as a Christian, an old man?

Shebu 22:17

That's a bit harsh. I know it is

Rhys 22:18

a bit harsh. I agree. I agree. And I said, well, this is not gonna sound like rocket science, but it's your praying, it's your daily devotions, which form the, the bedrock of all else that you experience and, and face and. A life with Christ means a life without fear, and that perhaps the opposite of fear is freedom.

22:49

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shebu 22:53

What do you think people are fear, afraid of when it comes to, perhaps its topic of singleness or, yeah. Is it something a bit more wider?

Rhys 23:02

It could, well be wide, but for this conversation, fear of. Being known, uh, the worst of you. Fear of missing out on something over there that they have, that you don't. There's a fear of the unknown. How will I survive as an older person and single? Or you can be married and then still lose your husband or wife before you get old. It's not a. It's not a perfect kind of solution to aging. There are lots of fears, I think, and our world trades in fears, uh, because fears make you buy things that you think you perhaps momentarily persuade that will plug the fear or fears make you vote in a certain way. Mm. So there are lots of fears in our world. Hmm.

Shebu 24:05

Reflection there. Um, sorry Jenny, is there anything you wanted to add to?

Dani 24:09

Um, I think the, another fear when we particularly talk, think about singleness is it's probably related to a number of the ones that Reese has already talked about, but there can be a fear of failure too, in the sense of the world has kind of sold me this vision that there's someone out there for me that is meant to be kind of the ultimate experience of relational intimacy that I could ever have. Um. And then you might find someone and have those kind of, that sense of, oh, this is exciting. Maybe this, but then that can very quickly become, but what if they're not? Or what if they let me down? Or what if I mess this up or what? And that sense of fear of failing to achieve or find the thing that the world around you has said is the kind of thing that is gonna make you happy, um, can mean many people pull back and go, well, I'm just not gonna risk it. Hmm. It, it that there's too much, it's too beautiful a thing for me to actually throw myself at that. Um, and discover that it actually has failed me or I've failed it. Um, which I think is just sort of part and parcel of the very unrealistic, um, way that we have come to, to think and talk about marriage, uh, in, in the world today. Loading it down with so much expectation, um, that people either run away from it or, uh,

25:31

worship it.

Dani 25:32

Worship it. Yep. Or kind of decide, all right, we'll give this a go and if it's not gonna work out for me, then we call it quits when it's no longer working out for me. Yeah. Yeah.

Rhys 25:42

And I think the great thing about a church service or belonging to a Christian community is that a good church service removes fears and replaces them with assurance. Mm-hmm. And so one of the great antidotes to fears generally, but also the fears of a single. Believer should be your church where you are loved and cared for and your own commitments to Christ are being reinforced. And Christ himself is reassuring you, uh, through church, that you are on his side, that he loves you and he's got you.

Shebu 26:23

I'm just lost in those beautiful words. Just then, Reese, um, a wonderful reminder and I think. That kind of moves me towards naturally thinking through it. So, uh, for those listening in, in our context, uh, we're in the, out east of Melbourne. Uh, there's, you know, uh, eastern suburbs, churches pretty temptation is to be, become comfortable. We have sort of lots of wonderful Christian schools in our area, so we can do our Christian things, but the things that you guys talk about is really pushing it, it is uncomfortable.

26:55

Mm.

Shebu 26:57

To genuinely live this out. The outward looking human in our church community. What is it, what would you recommend or suggest for a church to be aware, uh, of the fears and to be aware of the singles? Singles? That, that's a terrible way of saying it's, sorry, Denny. Oh, no, it's,

Dani 27:16

that's the word. I mean, that's the word we use to, yeah. Um, I, I really think the first thing. I wanna encourage church communities to do is to look around and see who is sitting in their church seats on a Sunday, um, coming along to, you know, the various week, week by week events, but just even in the broader community as well. Um, one, the, one of the very common stories that single Christians tell is that they feel, and this is certainly something, I don't know if Reese has experienced this, but it's certainly something I've experienced is. You can feel incredibly conspicuous and visible. Mm-hmm. At the same time as feeling incredibly invisible and unknown and unseen. You kind of feel like there's a big spotlight shining down on you, that you are different to kind of the majority of people here because you're not a husband or a wife, you're not a mother or a father, although some people are mothers and fathers. Um, so there can be this sense of, I'm everyone's looking at me because I'm not like them. But there can also then be this sense of nobody sees me, because if they did, surely they would wanna spend time with me. They'd want to get to know me. They'd come and sit next to me in church. And so I just want to, it's just, you know, a very first simple step, um, for church members and church pastors alike, is to just look around and see, not just the singles, but who is sitting in your church building. Where are they sitting? Who are they sitting with? If they're sitting with anyone at all, you know, who do they rush off straight after church because they're anxious about nobody coming to talk to them, not having conversations. Do they hang around just. See us to start with because, and then the next step is having seen us get to know us because you're not gonna be able to love us if you actually don't know us as well. Um, you know, they sound simple steps, but they're actually quite big and profound in lots of ways.

Shebu 29:20

Helpful. Helpful

Rhys 29:23

Isn't not, I'm not sure that it's really helpful to describe Sunday morning service as a family service.

Shebu 29:28

Ah, yep.

Rhys 29:30

It would be service. Where we have kids ministry because then you are actually naming what you think a family service is about, which normally is code for, you have a kids program, uh, but kids can come from all different kinds of mm-hmm. Situations and families doesn't assume too much. Uh, so that's a useful check for some churches to think about how do we present ourselves, how do we advertise ourselves? And for, I'm a preacher, but for es how many stories you're telling about your own kids and from your marriage, and I like hearing them, but I like hearing other kinds of illustrations as well. Uh, and there's, there are lots of illustrations that we can diversify that is, it's good to have illustrations are not just about sports, uh, as well as to have stories. About other kind of life stages or other kinds of interests. Mm-hmm.

Dani 30:36

Mm-hmm. Can I share just a brief anecdote on, on Reese's first point there about how you sort of talk about the, the character and, and who makes up your church family? Some years ago I was, uh, just looking at, um, a website of a, a church, um, which is a, a fantastic church in. All senses of the word from what I know of it. But on the homepage it was describing the different times of services we're at and had just a one line description of each of the different services. Um, and the, the morning service, the description was something like, um, children and families that are at the heart of this congregation, but everyone's welcome. I just kind of thought I knew exactly what they were trying to communicate there, which they were reaching out to the local community saying, Hey,'cause it was a very suburban area with lots of young families come along to church. We are for you, like you belong here. Your kids will belong here. You'll find a home here. Um, most importantly with Jesus. Uh, but what I don't think they recognized that actually that was communicating to people who were not children or part of that kind of family that. They will never be at the heart of this congregation that they're welcome guests. You know, please come,

Rhys 31:47

they're onlookers,

Dani 31:48

but you, you, you're not going to be at the heart of this congregation. And I'm sure that was not what they were intending to say. Yes, yes. But it's what they'd said. Yeah.

Shebu 31:59

Yeah. Um, been reflecting on a lot of the things that, not just what you guys have said, but also just in general church ministry. Talking to a friend, um, a single mum, and she came along to our church service and, uh, she said, I love your church. It's great. Um, love being there. There's so many married couples. And I realized, and I realized as I was reflecting on it, I thought, oh, like, it's not intentional, but like, how do we communicate better as a church family to actually be truly a family?

32:31

Mm.

Shebu 32:32

Of young and old, single married. You know, all these different seasons of life.'cause that's the biblical world you Yes. Correct. And I think, Danny, you shared this yesterday at the seminar of the taste of what is to come too. Mm. You wanna unpack briefly if you can Sure. About the Sure.

Dani 32:49

Briefly, I'll summarize my for you PhD into, yes, that's right. In two minutes. One paragraph. Um, uh. In, in Matthew chapter 22, I'll leave you to go and read it yourself. But, uh, Jesus uh, tells us that in the new creation, in the resurrection age, uh, men and women resurrected men and women will not be married to each other and will not be marrying each other. Um, uh, now there's various reasons why that will be true, one of which is that the ultimate marriage will be a reality. Christ will have married the church. Um, weird as that sounds to us, but that's the mystery that human marriage points towards. But it means that in and for eternity, those of us who have trusted in Christ in this life and who will be with him forever, um, will not be husbands and wives to each other. And so what that means is that actually those of us who are not husbands and wives in this creation, um, and not missing out on kind of what it is to be truly human, but are in our own way, kind of forerunners of heaven, we're kind of. In some very imperfect, uh, and not yet fulfilled way, living the relational life of eternity here and now as those who are not a husband and not a wife and not married. Um, and so I think, uh, just as thinking about eternity gives marriage an incredibly significant importance of, you know,'cause it is the profound mystery that, that, um, speaks to Christ and the church. Ephesians chapter five, um. So ought we be able to look at single Christians in the church now and go, oh, by looking at you, I just get a little foretaste of what it's gonna be like for all eternity. Just in the much better, much perfected sense of that. Yeah,

Shebu 34:35

I think that's a great spot to Finish the podcast and unless you guys have any last words to add,

Rhys 34:43

thank you for, uh, as a pastor being concerned for the issue and. For the opportunities this weekend to talk about singleness. I think that's fantastic and really healthy for a church. It doesn't solve all the problems, right? But at least it, it flags some important conversations that need to be had, needs to be had.

Shebu 35:05

Friends, thanks for joining us. In the show notes, I will add the different links for both De and Reese. They've written books and PhD papers and so on, but, uh, so that you can follow up on, um, and particularly Denny's recent book that she's written called

Dani 35:18

Single Ever After.

Shebu 35:20

How good is that title? It's

Rhys 35:21

a very

Dani 35:21

good title. I like it. I like it.

Rhys 35:23

Did you come up with it?

Dani 35:24

Uh, I did, I, I said yesterday that originally I wanted to call the book, you Are Gonna Be Single Forever because of what I was just talking about, but my publishers weren't too keen on that. So we said it sounds a threat. It sounds like a threat. If, if they read the book they'd realize what the title. But getting them to read the book after reading, you are gonna be single forever. We just decided single ever after was a better bet. Indeed.

Shebu 35:46

Well, friends, thanks for joining us and at, at the end of every podcast, we ask people to pray. So I was wondering either both of you or one of you wouldn't mind praying for us.

Dani 35:55

Why don't I start and Reese can finish this off.

Shebu 35:58

Thank you.

Dani 35:59

Heavenly Father, thank you for the privilege. It is to be your people, um, to come to you, our Heavenly Father, uh, knowing that you hear us and you call us to cast our anxieties on you. Father, we do pray for those, um, in our churches and also in our broader community who are single, whether that is that they've never been married or they are divorced or they are widowed. Um, father, we pray that. Those in our churches would know, uh, that their singleness is not an abandonment of you. It's not a punishment from you. Um, but it is the good life that you have assigned to them, um, in this moment and that you call them to serve Jesus in it. We pray our churches would be places where, um, they, uh, well loved and cared for. We pray. Our churches would also be places where we were able to reach out to single people in the community around us. With the gospel of Jesus Christ, um, with the good news that Jesus has come so that we might have life and have life to the full in Him. Um, and that, yeah, our churches would reflect that for both married and single people alike. And we pray these things in his name. Amen.

Rhys 37:09

Amen. And would you please have any further open our inside eyes that we might see all the spiritual blessings each of us has in Christ? Would you open our eyes that we would see who's sitting next to us in church, work out better how to serve them? And would you open our inside eyes to see how we might be a model, either as a single or as a married person to those around us, either single, please. Would you help pastors to recognize. The variety of needs in their congregations. Would you do all these things we ask, uh, for Christ's sake. Amen.

Dani 37:57

Amen.

Shebu 37:58

Amen. Well, friends, thanks for joining us.