From Lawyer to Small Business Operator | Patrick Courtney on American Operator Podcast

Patrick Courtney took an unconventional path—leaving a career in law to build and operate small businesses. In this episode of The American Operator Podcast, host Joseph Cabrera dives into Patrick’s journey from the courtroom to pest control and moving companies. They discuss the power of business partnerships, the challenges of scaling, and why trust is the real currency in business. Whether you’re thinking about acquiring a business or making a career shift, this episode is packed with real-world insights.

🔹 The moment Patrick knew law wasn’t for him
🔹 Why bad business operations create big opportunities
🔹 The key to successful partnerships and business growth
🔹 How to spot hidden value in everyday industries

📢 Subscribe for more stories from real operators building America’s backbone!

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Transcript

Welcome to the American Operator podcast, where small businesses are the heartbeat of America. I'm Joseph Cabrera, and we dive into the stories of owners and operators who build and keep our communities thriving. Whether you're new to business already in the trenches, we're sure the hard earned wisdom, triumphs and challenges with running a business in this great country. Let's get to work.

00:00:23:08 - 00:00:24:03
Speaker 1
All right.

00:00:24:03 - 00:00:33:16
Speaker 1
Team got Patrick Courtney in studio, Austin, Texas, all the way down from our cousin city, San Antonio, Texas. How are you here?

00:00:33:17 - 00:00:34:15
Speaker 2
Excellent.

00:00:34:17 - 00:00:52:17
Speaker 1
I'm so stoked to have you back here. You've helped us. First of all, want to say thanks again for helping us. A couple weeks back, we had 18, about 18 aspiring owner operators in at HQ here. Man, they got a lot of a lot of good wisdom nuggets from yeah, a lot of don't do's and a lot of dudes man.

00:00:52:17 - 00:00:57:06
Speaker 1
So I do appreciate I appreciate the rawness of feedback you gave him. But it means a lot.

00:00:57:08 - 00:01:02:13
Speaker 2
It's I don't really know another way to be. So that's great that it works because, I don't know how to be anything else.

00:01:02:15 - 00:01:20:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, I can well, and what's funny is, because you are also, I mean, just as a quick background on you and please fill in any holes, like, as you had put it, a recovering lawyer turned interested into pest control, moving companies and then figuring out how to continue to invest in all this world. Everything. Small business.

00:01:21:01 - 00:01:30:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. I got to ask, like, how does a guy go from being somebody who's classically trained as an attorney into this wild west of the world, call small business?

00:01:30:12 - 00:01:49:08
Speaker 2
I mean, so the narrow answer is, like a lot of people who practice law, especially a big firm, I got disillusioned with not feeling like I was adding any value. Right. So, you know, it's the Michael Clayton joke about being a janitor, but there's a lot of truth to that. You know, whether it's at a high level or small firm or whatever, that's a lot of what being a litigator is, right?

00:01:49:08 - 00:02:08:20
Speaker 2
It's just cleaning up messes very expensively. You're not really adding any value for anybody. So that was kind of the realization that kicked off. I wanted to change paths. But I don't think of it as I'm a lawyer. And then I got an entrepreneurship. I think of it as I was always supposed be an entrepreneur. I had a taste of that when I was younger and kind of got off the path and then got back on.

00:02:08:20 - 00:02:10:02
Speaker 2
That's kind of how I tend to think about it.

00:02:10:02 - 00:02:32:14
Speaker 1
What do you tell folks that are like thinking about? I imagine there's a lot of education investment. There's a lot of time and there's probably moments where you thinking about social pressure, about like, I probably should stick this out. Like any advice or just thoughts about as you look back on, what would you tell somebody coming out of a thing that feels like, well, I've invested so much time, but you know, that ain't right.

00:02:32:17 - 00:02:34:10
Speaker 1
What do you do?

00:02:34:11 - 00:02:52:14
Speaker 2
For one, I'd remind them about what the sunk cost fallacy is. We all get caught up in that trap I did for a long time. I would also say, my lived experience has borne out that it's not. There's. It's never too late. Right? If you're not, if you if you're not happy with your work, you don't feel like you're adding value.

00:02:52:14 - 00:03:10:10
Speaker 2
You don't have relationships that matter to you with work, like just change. What's the worst that's going to happen right now? I was in a fortunate position in that, you know, my economic reality didn't involve kids, right? Which is a, you know, huge source of pressure for a lot of folks. I didn't have any medical or family issues that made it difficult to make that transition.

00:03:10:10 - 00:03:21:19
Speaker 2
So I was very fortunate. So, that stuff is real. And in general, I think people tend to be much too cautious, about career changes. It's just a career change. People do it every day. Right?

00:03:21:21 - 00:03:42:12
Speaker 1
And you can go back to I think it's the other thing. You can go back, worst case scenario, you want to especially especially with a craft like that. Would you also say the thing that folks underestimate is the fact that they are they're leaving a lot of value on the table that they could create personally or professionally by not pursuing something that's like much more suited in their genius.

00:03:42:14 - 00:04:01:15
Speaker 2
Yes, I, I think it's easy to look at that and say, we're really just talking about entrepreneurship and adding personal economic value, which can be true. But I think in general, you just gotta find a way to do something that makes you tick, right, that keeps you engaged. Sometimes that's a higher economic, you know, output, endeavor.

00:04:01:15 - 00:04:07:17
Speaker 2
Right. Hopefully. It isn't always that's okay too. But.

00:04:07:19 - 00:04:22:04
Speaker 2
I feel like the older I get, the more people I know who are stuck. And sometimes the answer is so obvious. People don't do it, which is like, you're doing something and you don't like it. You're not engaged, you're not adding value. Why don't you just stop?

00:04:22:07 - 00:04:23:02
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:04:23:04 - 00:04:30:15
Speaker 2
You know, that's an option, right? Just stop and go do something else. I was stuck in that, you know, for a long, long time.

00:04:30:17 - 00:04:39:10
Speaker 1
So what was the was there, was there a moment or somebody said something to you that finally got you to go, like, come on, Patrick, do something else?

00:04:39:12 - 00:04:53:07
Speaker 2
I think, like, a lot of things, it wasn't kind of one big decision or one big light bulb. I think it was more like a lot of a lot of small things that come together. Right? Which is kind of what this operating thing is about to write a lot of small decisions, not necessarily a lot of big ones.

00:04:53:09 - 00:05:08:20
Speaker 2
It was a combination of things. I think part of it was that my business partner and I had met, you know, before we started this, we had a close relationship for a lot of years, and he kind of helped me get a gave me a nudge on that, which was very helpful. I think it was clear to my family and friends that I needed a change, too.

00:05:08:20 - 00:05:25:07
Speaker 2
I think that was helpful. And I also think it's one thing to imagine what being a lawyer or a doctor or whatever else is going to be like. It's another thing to actually put in the hours and do it every day. And at some point you just get tired, right? I think it maybe that's embarrassing to say, but it's kind of true.

00:05:25:07 - 00:05:36:14
Speaker 2
I think part of it was, man, I'm really tired. Like I'd rather, which is funny because now I feel like I'm like, ready to go, right? But it's like, that's a big part of it. I just got really tired of that being my day.

00:05:36:14 - 00:05:52:21
Speaker 1
Every day it's a different time, right? Like I think about my, All right. There's going to be a weird example, but we're going to go there. I think about my hunting dog. My gun dog. This dude, after a long day's worth of hunting, is tuckered out, but he's never not in the mood the next day to go do it again.

00:05:52:22 - 00:06:01:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so but I feel like humans are. We do a thing the next day. We're just in bed. We're like, hey, man, do not want to get up and face the world.

00:06:01:11 - 00:06:21:04
Speaker 2
I cannot. So I really relate to this because especially when we bought our we did our first deal and I was I went from basically not having a job to having a crazy job, right. Like literally in a 24 hour period because yeah, yeah, the deal was hectic and getting the first one done was hard. But like, then you show up and the employers are there and it's time to go.

00:06:21:06 - 00:06:35:18
Speaker 2
And every night, especially in the first six months, right. It's like I'm staying late. It was pretty crazy. I was trying to figure it out, but I get up the next morning and it's like, all right, let's do it. And I hadn't had that feeling in a long time. And I sure didn't have it on Monday morning.

00:06:35:18 - 00:06:43:02
Speaker 2
And I was working at the firm where it was like, wake up Monday morning. It's like, all right, well, what are we doing this week? This week we're writing for 80 hours. That's what we're doing this week.

00:06:43:03 - 00:06:43:23
Speaker 1
We gotta go, Bill.

00:06:43:23 - 00:06:53:17
Speaker 2
You know, like, that's literally what we're doing, right? Like, I can tell you what I'm going to do for every waking moment for the next seven days. And most of it's that, you know, like.

00:06:53:22 - 00:07:04:22
Speaker 1
Can you describe to folks what that new feeling, what did it like, to the extent that you can remember even the way it tastes like, what was that feeling? That is what's so exciting about this new thing that you were on?

00:07:05:00 - 00:07:26:17
Speaker 2
I think it's the combination of fear, which I think is underrated, right? Which is really helpful and can feel really good. Not fear of the oh, you know, the murderers, you know, coming down the hallway and got the gun pointed at me. But like a reasonable, healthy degree of uncertainty and, you know, anxiety is very helpful. I think, I think the other part was that there was nobody in charge.

00:07:26:19 - 00:07:44:18
Speaker 2
Right. Which can be scary, obviously, but also is really freeing to realize, like, okay, I'm coming in today. There's 12 problems to solve. I don't on the one hand, there's no one I can look to for help. And that kind of goes to this whole thing, which is I wish there were more places that folks could look to get help.

00:07:44:20 - 00:07:58:16
Speaker 2
Part of it is that there's nowhere to look for help. But part of it is if I think I've got an idea, that'll work. I don't have to check with a committee. There's no like, I just do it right. Just get up and solve a problem and then solve the next one. And then go on your way.

00:07:58:17 - 00:08:11:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, it sounds like a bit of like you feel most alive, right? Like it just 100%. Yeah. You just like that connection is deep. Talk to me about Patrick before this whole thing, man. Like, where'd you grow up or were you into.

00:08:11:05 - 00:08:15:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I grew up right here. Which is uncommon these days. For Austin.

00:08:15:20 - 00:08:20:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, man, you're like a rare unicorn. Nobody. Yeah. Yes, it's it's bizarre.

00:08:20:04 - 00:08:36:22
Speaker 2
I can't tell you how many times I've heard unicorn in an Uber, right? It's like, oh, where are you from? They also you're a unicorn. But it's true. I mean, it's not that common. And, you know, my dad was a contractor. My mom was a teacher. She later became a college professor, which is what she still does now, she was at UT for a lot of years of sweet.

00:08:37:03 - 00:09:01:09
Speaker 2
But when you teach, bilingual in special ed. So mostly she spent her career teaching people to teach special needs kids. And. Yeah, it's great. And my dad was a contractor. Flooring contractor. Work for himself. Sometimes it was just him. Sometimes it was employees. It was kind of varied over the years, but, here in Austin, and they moved here at a time when working class people could move to Austin and buy a home.

00:09:01:09 - 00:09:07:19
Speaker 2
And that was still like kind of a normal thing. Austin was, I think, half a million when they moved here or something like that total. So yeah, it was very different.

00:09:07:19 - 00:09:09:14
Speaker 1
We're in we're in the seven figures now, right?

00:09:09:16 - 00:09:28:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh yeah. They count all. I think the metro was like over two. I was like two 2 or 2.3 something like that's huge. So when I grew up, awesome was very different. But I grew up here, went to public schools here, had no interest in law, had no interest in business. I didn't know any lawyers.

00:09:28:15 - 00:09:31:16
Speaker 2
I was mostly a musician. Was, like, pretty much my whole life.

00:09:31:16 - 00:09:33:13
Speaker 1
What did you riff on? Motivation?

00:09:33:15 - 00:09:47:20
Speaker 2
I started when I was young, playing piano, like a lot of people do. But, once I got into, like, middle school, it was guitar and saxophones were the main ones. But I was, you know, a band kid and doing jazz and marching and all that kind of stuff in high school. And that's what I thought I was going to do.

00:09:48:01 - 00:10:07:04
Speaker 2
Like full stop was like, if you'd ask me at 16 years, like all of you rock and roll musician. Right. Like, of course that's what they do. Got you. But that changed, again, I went into a liberal arts program, called Plan one's kind of interdisciplinary, which was a lot of fun. It was great, but, quickly figured out that was not going to be the path.

00:10:07:04 - 00:10:27:17
Speaker 2
Like, I'm not going to go be, history professor or, you know, get a PhD. Like, that's not what I'm about. And that's where the entrepreneurship thing started for me. I was basically bored. My third semester of college, decided to take a little time off, got a real estate license and met my now partner, and we started a real estate business together.

00:10:27:19 - 00:10:42:23
Speaker 2
And that was when I kind of got the bug. And before I got off the path, as I said, I did the lawyer thing. That was my first chance to be an operator and to build something. And, I on the one hand, I don't regret, like, oh, it's like, this is worked out great, right? I'm a happy guy.

00:10:43:01 - 00:10:50:02
Speaker 2
You know, lucky to do what I do. But it's like I look back and I'm like, man, I can save a lot of time if I just stuck on the path, right?

00:10:50:06 - 00:11:10:08
Speaker 1
You know, I don't I don't know if that is. I look back on many decisions in life and also other folks have talked about. It's a weird catch 22. Like there's there's so much reflection on like what we could have done differently. But then the other answer is, would I have ever had this opportunity to even think about it had I not done this other thing that didn't quite work out the way that I had hoped?

00:11:10:10 - 00:11:11:05
Speaker 2
Exactly.

00:11:11:07 - 00:11:27:17
Speaker 1
On the lawyer front, just one more thing on it. Like, so what was it like? You kind of go in this program, you're going to be a rock and roll star man next, Eddie Mercury. But then then like gridlock come into the picture. I don't like to someone, you know, was like, hey, man, I'm being a lawyer. Just as a backup is kind of what you need to be doing.

00:11:27:17 - 00:11:46:16
Speaker 2
No, I wish it was even that smart. I think it kind of like it just kind of came down to. We were kind of at an inflection point with the business. I was kind of ready to go do something else. I knew, and my partner knew, too. It wasn't like an indictment of him or the business, but like it was just at a stage where, like, we weren't going to go work on this thing for the next ten years and retire.

00:11:46:16 - 00:12:03:05
Speaker 2
Right. It wasn't Facebook. So it was like, okay, what's going to be next? And so it's kind of like you either double down on this and kind of do more of the same. You know, maybe I go try to get some other job in business or operations or go back to school. And I think I was kind of scared and wasn't quite sure.

00:12:03:05 - 00:12:27:18
Speaker 2
I knew I was ready for a change. Everyone had been telling me for the last ten years, like, oh, you're academically, you know, inclined. You did well in school. You know, you love to argue with people, right? I feel like this is the right path. And I just kind of applied and did it like it's embarrassing to admit, like, you think about how this a path that was ten years basically because law schools, you know, three in change or whatever, internships, whatever.

00:12:27:18 - 00:12:42:05
Speaker 2
And then you I practiced for about six. So it's like it's basically ten years. I gave it about 20 minutes worth of thought. I mean, I just was like, I'm going to go. I did a crash like a weekend course for the Lsat. I took it, did well enough. And then that was it.

00:12:42:09 - 00:12:42:21
Speaker 1
Off you go.

00:12:43:03 - 00:12:52:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I just thought, well, this is safe. Like I'm good at school. I can do the school thing, right? I know how to do that. You can make a lot of money doing this job. And so I'll just do it.

00:12:53:00 - 00:12:53:23
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:12:54:01 - 00:12:57:11
Speaker 2
It's like it's sad to admit, but like that it kind of comes down to that.

00:12:57:15 - 00:13:07:18
Speaker 1
Well, you know, it's fascinating. You mentioned it. First of all, get real quick. As an aside, I think I set Eddie Mercury for my Queen fans out there. I know what I'm talking about. I meant to say Freddie Mercury or anybody or Eddie Money.

00:13:07:23 - 00:13:09:07
Speaker 2
It's a combination of the two.

00:13:09:10 - 00:13:27:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, but I just want to make sure because someone's going to come out there and leaving nasty comments. I know what we're talking about here. All that to say that when you think about there's like a bit of this serendipity that I think we probably don't give enough credit to you. Right. Even when it comes to businesses, we're actually just on the horn with some really a great group of operators.

00:13:27:15 - 00:13:48:01
Speaker 1
Once you helped aspiring operators. And there is a lot of especially nowadays, I mean, there's a lot of rigor around how you find a business, the hunting process proprietary, or you hear about all these things. Oh yeah, but sometimes you get this random like you actually get one of our advisors on there yesterday. And it was so funny.

00:13:48:01 - 00:14:02:22
Speaker 1
There's, there's then there's equally as many stories of like, I just walked in and the timing was right at this carwash one time and the owner was like sick and tired and was like, do you want to just buy this thing? And you're like, yeah, maybe. And that was it. That was like the extent of how they got into the car wash business.

00:14:02:22 - 00:14:16:11
Speaker 1
And I'm paraphrasing a little bit of like many stories that come together, if you, as you think about your law experience or just life in general, like any thoughts on like serendipity and momentum, sometimes it does arrive. And what do you do with it?

00:14:16:17 - 00:14:38:23
Speaker 2
You. Yeah. So there's the there's the does it arrive part, which is just of course it does. And that's like so many people I know would report that what they're ultimately doing now came about through some weird set of circumstances that was beyond their control and kind of fell on them. Right. That's a, I think, a very common experience, especially for folks like me who were lucky enough to kind of have made their own path.

00:14:39:01 - 00:14:53:09
Speaker 2
I could say that it's so many points in the career that was true with me. Just happened to me, happened happening to me. Gus, my now business partner when I was 19, 20 years old, where I've been friends ever since, like in his wedding, you know, business partners, like, you know, it's a big relationship in my life.

00:14:53:09 - 00:15:13:18
Speaker 2
And it's like, it's basically it was essentially random, right? The law school thing, although it should have been, was basically random. Getting out of it. There was a little bit more intentionality about, okay, Gus and I talked about this. We had a structure in mind, whatever. But the actual deals we've done so far, a lot of that, a lot of just, hey, this kind of happen.

00:15:13:18 - 00:15:32:00
Speaker 2
I think you have to be open to those things, to what I've tried to focus on is, coming up with a general path and then being intentional about not, being too controlling over the details. Right. So, that's been very true in the acquisitions we've made. And I think it's just about being ready for it when it happens.

00:15:32:00 - 00:15:32:16
Speaker 2
Right?

00:15:32:18 - 00:15:52:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, it's right. I think that there is that preparedness kind of meeting opportunity that's such a, underestimated thing. I think a lot of times you can a process is great. I think that you can kind of in just in life in general, you know, like there's these, these these, I'm sure personal, ideas that you have probably in your life that if you're a Gus.

00:15:53:01 - 00:16:08:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, actually, that's an interesting one. I mean, where there's a lot of folks who probably have really strong opinions about doing something with a partner versus not. Can you talk a little bit about just like how you and Gus came to you talked about the real estate thing. Yeah. But you've been buddies before that. Like, how did you know each other?

00:16:08:00 - 00:16:09:19
Speaker 1
And then how do you continue to trust each other?

00:16:09:19 - 00:16:26:19
Speaker 2
So we literally met when I walked into the office of the firm. He was basically a year and a half ahead of me in his career in real estate. I just walked in and we met. Like that was literally the story, and we kind of clicked and whatever. Long story short, here we are today. But, your question.

00:16:26:19 - 00:16:27:03
Speaker 2
Wow.

00:16:27:08 - 00:16:31:14
Speaker 1
How did you all like how did you decide? Oh, that's how you met. Yeah. Yeah. Like where did that come from?

00:16:31:14 - 00:16:49:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think it came from operating together and it came from, I remember you talking about this at, at the summit about, asking, you know, if folks had military background, which there were quite a few that did, and talking about that shared experience of suffering and I think that was a big part of it for us, too.

00:16:49:23 - 00:17:06:04
Speaker 2
It wasn't in the military, obviously was in business, but I think going through that process of like the budget for everything was zero and we had this horrible office that we were he was living out of it at the time. Also, I was coming in every day. You know, I'd see him brushing his teeth in the, in the bathroom.

00:17:06:04 - 00:17:27:12
Speaker 2
I mean, it was a shit show, but can I say that? Sorry. Totally. So it was nuts. And I think going through that with somebody is a really powerful bonding experience. And I joke with Gus about this all the time that now the trust that we have is like, that's what lets us move fast, right? There's the trust level so intense that, like, we don't have like, it just things just move, right?

00:17:27:12 - 00:17:42:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. But that's how we built it. Was just working together was and seeing the shared commitment and making a ton of mistakes and helping each other out and kind of one piece at a time, I think. I don't think there's a way to do it super fast.

00:17:43:03 - 00:17:52:05
Speaker 2
Sometimes it happens faster than others. Sometimes two people just click and that's great. But like the trust part, I think just takes time. You just have to go through some stuff together.

00:17:52:07 - 00:18:18:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's true. Yeah. That pressure testing like you said can happen right away or sometimes it can. I think that is that's an interesting piece of insight when you think about how it is a very lonely road getting into this world of ownership and operating really anything. And you think about it from the perspective of like, if you had to the number seems to make sense, but then you equally have all these horror stories of partners, like destroying each other and that and being the antithesis of you and guess and and like.

00:18:18:06 - 00:18:19:11
Speaker 2
For all those.

00:18:19:14 - 00:18:32:05
Speaker 1
Talk to me about like how what are the like foundation thing okay to trust being one but maybe even more tactical. Like what are the foundational things that you and Gus, you feel like, hey, this is why this works and why that example is destined for a cliff?

00:18:32:07 - 00:18:55:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. So there's a lot there, right? Yeah. So couple things. One is I do not think the partnership route, especially for this kind of thing, I do not think the partnership is for everybody personally and there's no judgment. But personally I feel like if you don't have a preexisting relationship built on a huge degree of trust, a two person deal is probably not a good idea.

00:18:55:19 - 00:19:13:06
Speaker 2
There's some practical reasons for that. I always joke about how do you settle a tie with two people, right? Which sounds pretty obvious, but think about where the rubber really meets the road on that. With operating a business, right? You're making decisions about outweighing significant amounts of cash, right? You've got employees who are you going to hire and fire.

00:19:13:06 - 00:19:41:17
Speaker 2
You've got all you got investor relations. If you have outside capital, like there's a lot of really critical issues where you may disagree. If you can't have a discussion up front and have faith that you guys are going to be able to make it through that and trust each other, you're in for a world of hurt. Yeah. To your point about the horror stories and the problems, most of what I did as a lawyer wasn't 100%, but most of what I did was litigating deals that fell apart in some way, shape or form.

00:19:41:23 - 00:20:02:07
Speaker 2
It was contract disputes. A lot of it was M&A disputes. So company A buys company B and then the shit hits the fan, right? I seen every kind of partnership there is and that'll bias you heavily. Maybe I think some people maybe we say too heavily, but I have a pretty strong bias against you. You got to get it in writing up front.

00:20:02:07 - 00:20:16:15
Speaker 2
You got to have those discussions in a very candid way up front, because it's like a marriage, right? Things are going to come up and you got to be ready for that. So I think back to the how to select a partner point. I'll, I'll come back to that in a second. But in terms of should you have a partner should you not.

00:20:16:20 - 00:20:30:18
Speaker 2
You know, I, I personally think if you don't have a preexisting relationship built on a pretty high degree of trust, like akin to the kind of trust you'd want to have with a partner in a marriage, I think it can be a little bit dangerous.

00:20:30:20 - 00:20:41:06
Speaker 1
That's interesting. You know, I think is when you, I think when folks think about this world of buying a business, you think, oh well you know I just offset our skills, you know, someone salesy.

00:20:41:06 - 00:20:42:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh so important.

00:20:42:16 - 00:20:49:00
Speaker 1
It's and right like this and that. Right. Not just this because you knew and guess you kind of offset each other pretty well. Like a puzzle piece.

00:20:49:00 - 00:20:49:16
Speaker 2
100%.

00:20:49:21 - 00:20:50:13
Speaker 1
Sure about that.

00:20:50:16 - 00:21:11:12
Speaker 2
We're. We could not be more different. So broadly speaking he's the top line and communications guy and I'm the operations and process and finance guy. So generally speaking that's kind of how it works. The reality on the ground of course more complicated because we both bring perspective to those different areas that we share and we collaborate and all that kind of stuff.

00:21:11:12 - 00:21:34:18
Speaker 2
But generally speaking, that's the deal. He is our primary relationship partner with our capital partners. For example. I know those folks, we chat. All that stuff's great. But like, most of those relationships are ones that he brought to the table. So there is a complementarity there. And I think that's really important. I think if you're considering a partner or two partners or whatever, you better be sure that he or she brings something to the table.

00:21:34:18 - 00:21:52:11
Speaker 2
You don't, because otherwise what are you doing right? If it's just about not being lonely, right? You have you have this, right. There's a lot of ways to build community around this work that don't involve actually having, someone else on your cap stack. Right. So I think the commentary is really important. I don't think is enough.

00:21:52:13 - 00:21:59:06
Speaker 2
I did the trust is ten times more important than the complementarity of skills, is it? When you full stop.

00:21:59:08 - 00:22:16:07
Speaker 1
I love that man. When you think about trust can give me like a tangible example of, like you and Gus where you just like you're like, if I didn't have that, this would break. Like, what's an example? Something that it sounds like you almost just, like, can read each other's thoughts kind of thing.

00:22:16:09 - 00:22:37:17
Speaker 2
There's some of that, but I think it's, it's it's in no particular order. It's a couple things. Part of it is that just like having a kind of shared history of communication, right. That's very helpful. Like in like it would be in a marriage. Part of it is the ability to make it past the mental block of having to do things together.

00:22:37:17 - 00:22:58:11
Speaker 2
So what do I mean by that? When we did our first deal, we used SBA. Financing was very common. We've subsequently done them, you know, done deal without it. But the first time we did, I did not think twice about we're both seeing this. Right. He's got a house that's, you know, encumbered right by that first note that we took out.

00:22:58:13 - 00:23:08:09
Speaker 2
I didn't at the time. I didn't have to think about that in any other circumstance. That would have been like conversations and but like, great, let's.

00:23:08:09 - 00:23:10:00
Speaker 1
Just do it.

00:23:10:02 - 00:23:36:13
Speaker 2
That's a pretty serious level of commitment to another person. Right. So that's what I mean about that would have been a difficult thing to do if we hadn't really had that trust on a more tactical level, kind of like day to day. I think what it translates to is there's a difference between sort of delegation of different things and truly being hands off on something, right?

00:23:36:14 - 00:23:49:11
Speaker 2
The way I work with guys on things day to day is very different than the way I work with one of my operations managers, for example. Right. We're sort of trust but verify. Yeah, I can skip that verify step with Gus, and that saves a lot of time, right? Saves a lot of time.

00:23:49:13 - 00:24:06:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. There's, the, the pji thing going back to that for a second. That's not a that's not an easy thing to swallow if you think about it. Just from very like, worst case scenario is that you have this person that like are they going to pull their weight. And if they don't I potentially lose my house. Like that's a pretty daggone huge thing to tie your wagon to.

00:24:06:14 - 00:24:35:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. The trust I'm talking about. Right. It goes both ways, right? It's not just me to him, it's him to me as well. And it's like, yeah, that's a pretty serious thing. And at the time he now has three kids. He's married. That's a huge commitment. Yeah, it's a huge commitment. So that's what I mean about like that's a level of preexisting trust where like if this was a guy that I'd known for a year, we may be met at work and we were thinking about doing something together like, you know, whatever, do what you want to do, right?

00:24:35:23 - 00:24:44:11
Speaker 2
Hope you have success. But that would scare the shit out of me. Yeah. If I were in a position where I was going to make that kind of commitment with someone who I didn't really have that that level of trust with.

00:24:44:13 - 00:25:03:07
Speaker 1
Right. Last kind of note on that is when you think about the. What's a good way to put this? It's more like the like when you think about the first person who's out there. Maybe that's a better way to think about it. When you think about a person out there who's like, oh, great, I have that trust in my brother.

00:25:03:09 - 00:25:24:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. But then you recognize there's also family things that may not allow you to be as you might trust them or you like, hey, my uncle, I want to go into this thing. My uncle, you might trust them, but you also may not have that kind of direct rigor to also be good business people together, where there is that feedback you ain't going to like be sour over Thanksgiving table.

00:25:24:22 - 00:25:34:09
Speaker 1
How do you and Gus manage that? Like, is there is there that kind of transparency? And you're like, look, what business is business? We don't get our feelings hurt like, how does that happen?

00:25:34:11 - 00:25:36:05
Speaker 2
You still get your feelings hurt.

00:25:37:13 - 00:25:52:02
Speaker 2
That's going to happen. I think over time where you hope to get is you hope to be able to say and he and I are very direct about this, like, hey, we're going to have a conversation about this and like, we're going to deal with feelings later or we'll say like, hey, I love you. But like, we're getting ready to do this.

00:25:52:02 - 00:26:09:23
Speaker 2
So like, let's get into it and like we'll be very direct about that. But I think the essence of your question is, about the family part. First, I'm not one of those people who thinks like this. It's an old, you know, and mixing business and family and this kind of thing. I kind of think that's bullshit, right?

00:26:10:00 - 00:26:37:07
Speaker 2
But if you can have a real upfront conversation about what's going to happen when things get difficult, how you intend to solve problems together, who is in charge of what right. If you can do that and you have that degree of trust, I don't think it makes that much of a difference. Yeah, there are some folks who would probably tell me I'm crazy, but one of the things I've encountered in looking at a ton of potential opportunities to acquire, I've seen a lot of husband, husbands, and wives work together.

00:26:37:07 - 00:26:50:09
Speaker 2
I've seen a lot of brothers work together, so that works great. I think it's more about the two people than just about the mere fact that, like, we're cousins or he's my nephew or, you know, she's my sister or whatever, I just don't think that's as critical as people make it out to be.

00:26:50:11 - 00:27:09:10
Speaker 1
It's that communication, unmet expectation. It's like a good marriage advice, too. If you see people who are like, really have a great marriage, it's probably because they talk about the good and the bad in a way that's productive, right? But it is something that I think for some reason, we don't use some of the same kind of status or, same measure in stakes when we're thinking about or tactics, you know.

00:27:09:12 - 00:27:28:15
Speaker 2
100% because let me tell you, like, I mean, I'm married, right? Oh, you're married. It's like in a marriage, it can be very useful to say, hey, let's be very explicit right now about why, like, I'm feeling whatever mistreated or angry or sad or whatever it is like. Let's be very explicit with each other right now about why that is.

00:27:28:15 - 00:27:44:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, let's just say it out loud and then let's figure out a way to move through it. Right? I had to do that 100 times in the context of my business partnership. It's the same kind of idea. It's a very different relationship. It's the same idea. Right. So I would say whether it's your, you know, college body, right?

00:27:44:22 - 00:28:03:08
Speaker 2
Or your sister or your nephew or whatever, if you can look yourself in the mirror and say, I can do that, I can have that kind of structured communication with this person where we're honest with each other and we can work through problems. Great. You'll be fine if you can't. You need to stop and ask whether this is the right fit, right?

00:28:03:08 - 00:28:03:12
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:28:03:12 - 00:28:25:15
Speaker 1
No, it's that you had there's there's a, there's there's so much wisdom and just being it just it takes a lot and it's the kind of, I don't know if it's societal or just maybe it's human to like, feel that the directness is being just completely outside of our skin. And it's not just directness, but it's that, like, I like the way you put it, let's just say 3 to 1 what's really bothering us right now.

00:28:25:17 - 00:28:37:22
Speaker 1
And it's more of this, when I talk with the team here, I'm always like, are we more obsessed with being like, are we obsessed with winning as a team because we were self winning? Then I want you to pick me apart so that we can get to win that. So that can be right.

00:28:37:22 - 00:28:59:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. So this is the would I rather be happier right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If anyone is ever, you know, gotten marriage advice. Right. Has heard this phrase. The answer is both. If you can't find a way to do both, yeah, that's probably not a relationship that's going to work long term.

00:28:59:23 - 00:29:01:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I like that man.

00:29:01:20 - 00:29:19:03
Speaker 2
And that doesn't mean when I say fine both. It doesn't mean happy 100% of the time and right 100% of the time, obviously. But you got to find ways to do both, right? Yeah. And in the context of what we're talking about with operating small companies, very often there isn't one. Right?

00:29:19:05 - 00:29:19:18
Speaker 1
There's a lot of ways.

00:29:19:18 - 00:29:25:19
Speaker 2
It's not as simple as, like, you're an idiot and I'm right about how we should proceed. Like that's almost never the case.

00:29:25:21 - 00:29:28:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. There's so many ways to, as I say, skin that can't.

00:29:29:00 - 00:29:29:14
Speaker 2
100%.

00:29:29:20 - 00:29:41:18
Speaker 1
So let's transition to small business. But before we do, we're going to do this May. We're doing something we're doing something new on this show. We're going to give you some cool gear. Nice. Thanks for being on. We got you this cool owner operator hat. And.

00:29:41:18 - 00:29:43:04
Speaker 2
Not allowed to talk about what's on the back.

00:29:43:04 - 00:29:45:19
Speaker 1
You for sure. How is that? But I want to make sure it's up to you.

00:29:45:20 - 00:29:49:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, this is owner operator, which is great.

00:29:49:09 - 00:29:50:20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:29:50:22 - 00:30:11:02
Speaker 2
On the back, it says private equity. You can kiss my ass, right? So, unlike a lot of folks who do what I do now or who are interested in doing what I do now, I'm not from that background at all. I have no finance training. I never worked at a private equity firm. So I guess that's easier for me to agree with than some folks.

00:30:11:02 - 00:30:15:19
Speaker 2
But, I got a lot of friends who are from that world, and some of them are perfectly fine.

00:30:15:19 - 00:30:33:05
Speaker 1
People than humans. So we'll talk a little more about, because I know you got some, some perspectives on that, that whole kind of idea, even though you're not from there. Maybe we can talk a little bit about why that's on there. And then, this, of course, just a notebook says American operator on it was a good old red, white and blue kind of burned in there, man.

00:30:33:05 - 00:30:38:17
Speaker 1
So just one thanks for being an American operator, but also sharing some words today, I.

00:30:38:19 - 00:30:41:02
Speaker 2
Super it's great to be here.

00:30:41:04 - 00:30:55:05
Speaker 1
Okay. With that said, let's jump back into business for a second. Let's talk about like maybe just very tactically for a second. You know, you got pest control moving. Is there any other businesses you're investing involved in right now?

00:30:55:07 - 00:31:00:01
Speaker 2
No, not right now. So we have two. The group has two moving companies and a pest control company. So okay.

00:31:00:03 - 00:31:09:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Let's talk about the businesses. And then I'd like to actually talk about kind of how you think about, you know, I know you're on pace right now to want to bring one into the portfolio every single year.

00:31:09:13 - 00:31:10:03
Speaker 2
That's the goal.

00:31:10:07 - 00:31:22:11
Speaker 1
That's the goal. But before we talk through that, why which was a pest control first. Removing first. Okay. First. Why moving. And what about that draw drew you to it?

00:31:22:13 - 00:31:40:00
Speaker 2
The short answer is I had no interest in the sector at all. It had come up in initial discussions with Gus Nye about potential targets. We were open to it. I didn't bring any special knowledge to that. For us, it was much more about certain structural elements that we wanted, a first company to have.

00:31:40:04 - 00:31:59:18
Speaker 2
We wanted something with a relatively predictable demand curve. We wanted something that had, you know, that was, relatively speaking, operationally simple, which we learned was not true at all in some ways and very true in others. But that was important. We were hoping and we got lucky that our first deal would be in Austin.

00:31:59:18 - 00:32:15:06
Speaker 2
That was where we wanted the first, we wanted our first market to be, which it was. And we wanted not to overpay. And like a lot of folks doing their first deal, that was really important to us, right? We wanted to have that safety margin right, to make sure we were going to be able to deliver in the way that we needed to deliver.

00:32:15:06 - 00:32:29:12
Speaker 2
So I wasn't particularly interested in moving. I could talk about, like, the specific things about this particular moving enterprise that appealed to us. But in terms of the sector, that's the answer is we were looking at a bunch of stuff. It just happened that that was the first thing we got under contract.

00:32:29:16 - 00:32:45:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. No talk about the movement. I do. I know that the question probably going through folks mind right now is, how do you know what kind of moving company to get? Isn't that something that seems flooded or whatever? I know you, this particular venture or this particular company had some unique things about it.

00:32:45:21 - 00:33:04:11
Speaker 2
It did. So one thing that was different about it, and frankly, I think I viewed this more of a as a strength then than I do now. It was pretty asset light. So the a lot of the other ones we've looked at and in fact, the second one we bought, they own their whole fleet. This one didn't, they had fleet lease arrangements in place for the box trucks that they were using.

00:33:04:11 - 00:33:24:01
Speaker 2
That's them own vehicles too. But in general, the majority of the work was done by leased vehicles. We liked the idea of asset light, especially on the first one. So that was something that appealed to us. The biggest thing, though, is I don't think of it as a moving, specific thing, but with everything we look at, you're trying to identify some meaningful and relatively defensible differentiator, right?

00:33:24:02 - 00:33:44:18
Speaker 2
That's the goal. So with this one it was average ticket size. So we looked at a bunch of moving companies. They're all you know the range but say 800 to 1200 box was like a pretty typical average ticket size for for a residential move. This one had a little over twice that. So we looked at that as a huge opportunity because we said, okay, think about what that unlocks, right?

00:33:44:18 - 00:34:08:21
Speaker 2
I means I can I can close half the number of transactions for the same revenue which we liked. But more importantly, it means my customer acquisition cost can be significantly higher than my peers and still be profitable, which was helpful because as I'm sure we'll get to, if you don't have a credible path from the first day to say, I can grow this enterprise, then you're not.

00:34:08:23 - 00:34:17:18
Speaker 2
You should pick something else to do, right? Financial engineering is not going to get you there, right? Leverage is not going to get you there. If there's no credible path to growth, you're you might as well not try.

00:34:17:22 - 00:34:25:14
Speaker 1
When you say credible path, I double tap into that. Like what do you mean by that? Because a lot of folks that feel like they got to go to path and then go bankrupt, let's.

00:34:25:14 - 00:34:39:23
Speaker 2
Talk about what every single SIM says. For example, it says, oh, this business, you could triple it in whatever, five years, right? We haven't done any marketing. Right. It's all been word of mouth. It's organic growth. And you can just come in here. We just need some new energy.

00:34:39:23 - 00:34:43:01
Speaker 1
And and we're just chilling. Right. We're going to yeah.

00:34:43:03 - 00:35:06:09
Speaker 2
There's a reason every single SIM says that, which is everyone thinks it's that simple. Right. And there is a kernel of truth, right? Like every oft repeated thing that ultimately is there's a piece of truth there, which is these things, these businesses that we're looking at, right? By definition, we don't we're not interested if we don't think, hey, I can do better, that's a healthy impulse, and we should cling to it and we should leverage it.

00:35:06:09 - 00:35:24:09
Speaker 2
But when I when I say credible path to growth, what I mean is if the company has no top line strategy now, there's not going to suddenly be one. After you close the deal and you show up, right. You have to have one. So by credible, I don't mean it's already proven out. And, you know, like there's still an element of risk.

00:35:24:09 - 00:35:44:20
Speaker 2
But what I mean is have you thought about what are those strategies going to be. So for example, when you're in the, the dealmaking stage, you may not know, okay, I'm going to use this ad word strategy with these keywords. And I'm sure that's too granular. But where are customers going to come from. Do you feel confident about leveraging a digital strategy?

00:35:44:20 - 00:36:02:09
Speaker 2
Is it going to be relationship based? Right. How important are the relationships with the existing owner or principals? Right. With the client base. Right. Or are they going to walk away? You talk a lot as you should about growth is not just about coming in and getting new customers. It's also about you got to get in and operate and keep the ones you already have first, right?

00:36:02:09 - 00:36:16:05
Speaker 2
So don't forget that. But that's what I mean by credible is like, have you really sat down and thought about, okay, if I need to take this business from 2 million in top line to whatever, five, right? That money has to come from somewhere. Where is it going to come from?

00:36:16:05 - 00:36:35:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's a bit of a does this resonate or not? Like I find it when folks are answering that question. To your point, it's not necessarily like, do you have the pristine tactical answer down to the ten to the millisecond about what you're going to do? It's more about like, are you just obsessed with that problem in a really tangible way?

00:36:35:12 - 00:36:57:02
Speaker 1
We had a, advisor the other day talk about, guys operating a car wash. Yeah. And his way of measuring how I'm going to grow this thing was literally sitting down at the car wash he's about to buy and watching it all day long. He actually, I had somebody he had hired to help him count cars coming through and going, like, okay, I think this is potentially could be more efficient.

00:36:57:02 - 00:37:06:03
Speaker 1
We could probably get seven more cars in an hour if we did these things. Yeah, that's what you're talking about. Like are you obsessed with that problem or are you just putting something in a spreadsheet and hoping it pans out?

00:37:06:03 - 00:37:24:11
Speaker 2
I'm 100% obsessed with that problem. And this is I. I wouldn't say it's a point of disagreement, but I would say this is a key area of complementarity for me and my partner. He's very interested in and very skilled at, and very engaged in the process of thinking through, what I'll call non growth through quality strategies. Right.

00:37:24:11 - 00:37:43:13
Speaker 2
What do I mean by that? I'm much more of the mind that if the goal of what we're doing is I always joke about putting a players in see games, right. If the goal is let's take a business that's not really operating at the level of performance, it should, right? My view is if we focus on operational excellence, like just let's just deliver for the customer.

00:37:43:13 - 00:38:01:07
Speaker 2
Let's deliver for our employees too, right? But let's deliver for the customer and just do better than the next guy. That's going to get you a pretty healthy portion of the way. They're I wish it was more I wish that was the whole game. Unfortunately it's not. You still got to fill up the top of the funnel, right for that.

00:38:01:07 - 00:38:19:21
Speaker 2
That's where we get into all kinds of other strategies. But I tended to focus first on like in your carwash example. He's like looking and saying, how can we make this better? Right? I just looked and that was what got me excited. We started digging into the first year. We did. We started digging into it. I was like, this is just, it's madness how they're doing this.

00:38:19:23 - 00:38:22:14
Speaker 2
Like, fortunately, it's kind of work. Kind of work, but.

00:38:22:14 - 00:38:24:08
Speaker 1
Like, this is nuts.

00:38:24:08 - 00:38:28:16
Speaker 2
What we're doing here. Like, we got this whole process got to be. Anyway, I got really excited about the details.

00:38:28:16 - 00:38:33:08
Speaker 1
So the hair on it actually excited you because you're like, I can I can clean that up.

00:38:33:10 - 00:38:44:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. This is literally a running joke with Gus and I of like, we'll look at something. We're like, and this thing is disgusting. Like, pumped like, this is a mess.

00:38:44:07 - 00:38:46:00
Speaker 1
I've had to clean this house. Oh, it's.

00:38:46:00 - 00:38:59:21
Speaker 2
Going to be great. At what? But that's. It's funny you say it when you say clean this house out. Some people, they hear that, and they think that, oh, we're gonna get rid of a bunch of people. I think the way we've looked at it is now we're going to come in and give them a, playbook. Let's come in and make a process this functional.

00:39:00:00 - 00:39:10:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, right. But that your point about hair on it like that, I get fired up about that because that's where the opportunity is, right? So yeah, that's how I think about it now.

00:39:10:10 - 00:39:15:04
Speaker 1
And now and then what what prompted you to go into pest control? Why not continue to buy more? Moving.

00:39:15:05 - 00:39:34:19
Speaker 2
So we're going to, I'm sure by removing, by removing companies. We actually had an offering on one last year that didn't pan out. I'm sure we'll have more of this year. Pest control came about. We like the space, the problem? Pest control. It's a great business. There's kind of two primary issues from my perspective. One is that a lot of capital is chasing those assets right now.

00:39:34:19 - 00:39:52:20
Speaker 2
And in particular, they've kind of become, plays for book of business. Right? So a big company wants to buy the small pest control company because they have a ton of recurring clients. And in general, there's a lot of friction in those relationships. And so they tend to stay and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, normal playbook. So part of it was that we wanted to solve for that.

00:39:53:01 - 00:40:11:23
Speaker 2
Can we get one of these and not overpay and not be, you know, up against all the same eyeballs with all of the same big pocket books? The other part of it is I didn't like pure play residential. So, you know, your Terminix or whoever, right? We wanted to get something that was focused on commercial clients, a little bit of a theme there, which is I'd rather have fewer client relationships, which is a little bit antithetical to how.

00:40:12:00 - 00:40:31:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, most new hopefully owner operators think about it. They think I want super low concentration in general. Yes, that's a good thing. But high ticket is also really powerful because it unlocks a lot of ability to develop your top line with a strategy that can be more expensive. So I wanted something that had commercial relationships. So those are the criteria we're looking for.

00:40:31:16 - 00:40:38:05
Speaker 2
And we happened to find one. And we did that one privately. We sourced it ourselves. But I just like the space.

00:40:38:10 - 00:40:39:00
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:40:39:01 - 00:40:56:16
Speaker 2
It's the, it's it's not particularly difficult to train someone to do it. Right. In the grand scheme of things, it's pretty straightforward. It has a licensing regime, but unlike plumbing or, you know, electrical work or certain other things, there's not the same bar for licensure in terms of how much is required and the cost and the education.

00:40:56:16 - 00:41:19:20
Speaker 2
So like I got I in eight months, I became a master pest control technician. So you can't do that with plumbing, right? So that was really appealing. The other big thing again, notice the theme is that they're just run so horrendously. Most of them like it's unbelievable the growth we've experienced so far which has been amazing 98% of it.

00:41:19:22 - 00:41:24:17
Speaker 2
The game has come to us by just being better than the guy down the street.

00:41:24:19 - 00:41:38:18
Speaker 1
Is this like just from a, something to sink our teeth into? Is it like like the way clients like, is it nobody answering the phone is what you mean by, like, the disgusting part, like, hey, man, there's so much is latent capacity, like latent customers here or.

00:41:38:18 - 00:41:44:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. How much time you got? Yeah. I mean, it's the guy doesn't show up.

00:41:44:02 - 00:41:45:21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:41:45:23 - 00:42:02:16
Speaker 2
I think about, like, that's the like the guy doesn't show up. Here's a little crash course on how pest control works in terms of like the multifamily. You know, we service only apartments. Government housing, you know, commercial. The way the game works is someone comes in, they offer you a lower price, and they say, great, sign up for a year, right.

00:42:02:16 - 00:42:19:02
Speaker 2
We're going to fix all your pest problems. And then they pay Jimmy Way under market and they don't train him. And maybe he shows up and maybe he doesn't. Yeah. They lock you into a year long contract, and you get so pissed off that by the time the contract is over, you go find the next person to offer you a rate that you think is going to work.

00:42:19:04 - 00:42:21:00
Speaker 2
And the carousel turns around and over.

00:42:21:00 - 00:42:21:21
Speaker 1
And over and over again.

00:42:21:21 - 00:42:39:00
Speaker 2
So we said, why don't we just do a good job instead of a bad job? Like we never thought, why don't we just deliver a better service, focus on retention like our guys are our guys. They stay right. Let's focus on retention. Let's charge a little bit more and tell people upfront like, I'm never going to be your cheapest option.

00:42:39:01 - 00:42:57:23
Speaker 2
And then let's focus on retaining employees and clients. And then sure enough, like you do a good job for a property and then everyone talks to each other and the game just comes to you, right? So yeah, that's the I'm sorry it's not showing up. It's using the wrong products. It's poor communication. Right. It's a lack of transparency around pricing and delivery of service.

00:42:57:23 - 00:43:00:09
Speaker 2
It's just the basic stuff. Basic stuff.

00:43:00:10 - 00:43:16:05
Speaker 1
When you get into I heard you say something earlier about, I became a, just right now, just talk about it took me eight months. I became a master. Yeah. That means to me you're not just investing in these things, but you guys are getting in the nitty gritty of running these things. Can you talk to me about.

00:43:16:07 - 00:43:24:21
Speaker 1
What is that you buy? You buy this pest control business? What does that look like? Day one of owning it. Now it's obviously you not sitting in an office tinkering with spreadsheets.

00:43:24:21 - 00:43:47:08
Speaker 2
Oh, no. So that's really what happens before day one. So that especially like that month before that really is kind of the you're a private equity analyst, right? You're digging in on projections and modeling. You're dealing with all the legal and compliance issues. You're making sure all the ducks are in a row, you're lining up insurance, you're it's all that kind of stuff.

00:43:47:09 - 00:44:06:02
Speaker 2
But assume you're past that. And it's actually day one. Day one is when relationship building starts. Because if I can't get these folks to trust that I'm here to make their lives better and not worse, nothing is going to work. So that's kind of job. What we've I've done this three times now. Right. And that's always job one.

00:44:06:04 - 00:44:24:04
Speaker 2
Get in and try to build some credibility. And the way I've tried to do that is by showing up the first day I did this the first time I'll do it every time and say, I'm just going to tell you the truth, right? Like I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do, and I just want you to give me the benefit of the doubt for a second and just see if we do what we say we're going to do.

00:44:24:05 - 00:44:42:06
Speaker 2
And that's not going to win everyone, but it's going to hopefully get your toe in the door. And then if you start delivering for folks, they'll trust you. And what I've found is the best way is not immediately coming in and offering more money. It's not. It's coming in and just solving problems. Tell me what sucks about your day.

00:44:42:08 - 00:44:49:02
Speaker 2
And then they look at you and they tell you and you go, great, we're fixing that tomorrow. And people's eyes like that. Really?

00:44:49:02 - 00:44:49:10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:44:49:16 - 00:44:51:02
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:44:51:04 - 00:44:57:01
Speaker 1
Can you give me something that y'all did like with pest control moving that changed people's life. And you're like, there's just.

00:44:57:01 - 00:45:22:05
Speaker 2
I mean, just do this for ten hours, right? It's like. But like, one easy one was like, one of the guys finally was like. I was like, we're going to use this new payroll system, right? It's going to be really easy and automated with direct deposit, and it's all going to be gravy and whatever. And he was like, yeah, it's just going to be really helpful because like the old guys like sometimes like we get paid like 3 or 4 days late and like it wouldn't like be consistent like what?

00:45:22:07 - 00:45:37:07
Speaker 2
Why don't we just pay on time? Like when we say we're going to pay you, right. Like, how hard is that? Or like another good one was one of the guys was rolling around in his truck. The AC only worked about half the time, and he had talked to the old owner about it and was like, you know, budgeted and whatever.

00:45:37:08 - 00:45:46:08
Speaker 2
And he's like, I'm like, it's 100 degrees. Like you're out working all day. It's taxes. Like it's the summer. Like great. Like take it to the shop today.

00:45:46:09 - 00:45:48:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Done.

00:45:48:23 - 00:46:04:16
Speaker 2
It's amazing what that will do for like like if you really just kind of close your eyes and imagine. Right. It's like, imagine the lived experience of this person who's like, got to get off and they go get in the truck and then like it's squeaking or the AC doesn't work or whatever. And it's like, man, that really wears on you.

00:46:04:16 - 00:46:27:06
Speaker 2
Like, that's such an it just make someone's day better. It's such an unlock, right? Here's another one. Tell someone what you appreciate about what they're doing. Find out what their go to the job site right. Talk to their customer what it's like and tell them, hey, you're doing this thing. It's great. It's awesome. We're going to build on that.

00:46:27:08 - 00:46:32:15
Speaker 2
That's free. Yeah, right. And if you mean it, it's super powerful.

00:46:32:19 - 00:46:48:17
Speaker 1
Do you think you just got it? Do you think at some point that business had it they just lost it? Or do you think it's a bit of a old school culture that just kind of didn't do some of that? Like, what's your thought process about why that hair is so existing, why these things are so in your mind?

00:46:48:17 - 00:46:51:23
Speaker 1
It seems like a dumb ass, but why the heck had they been doing it?

00:46:52:01 - 00:47:10:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, it gets at the heart of something weird about this job, right? Which is that, you know, obvious to you, amazing to others, right? Is the phrase that my business partner, Gus uses all the time. And I think about this all the time. Surely someone else would come in, because at some point, some of these we're going to sell, right?

00:47:10:19 - 00:47:26:16
Speaker 2
We want to keep the goal for us is to operate long term, but there will be situations where we sell them and someone else is going to come in and they're going to look at me and go, what was this idiot doing with whatever process? Yeah, you got to be humble enough to recognize, like, I don't have all the answers, which I absolutely don't.

00:47:26:18 - 00:47:46:07
Speaker 2
But I think to your question about what causes it or how does that come up, part of it is we're buying from folks in almost every instance who went 0 to 1. So sometimes you're buying from someone who bought it, but that's not as common, right? Usually you're buying for someone who built it. If they built it, they're in survival mode all the time.

00:47:46:09 - 00:48:14:05
Speaker 2
And what I found is they're in survival mode even after they're succeeding, because that's where they started and they can't get out of it. Right. They can't escape that mentality of like, I got to say it like, I will not say this person's name because this is just insane. But an owner of one of the businesses we bought, I will not even tell you which one was like, fine, I'll buy coffee for the office, but you got to get your own creamer.

00:48:14:07 - 00:48:20:19
Speaker 1
I'm laughing because I have actually an understanding of what that means. At some point you probably can afford to, like, put gas in the truck.

00:48:20:21 - 00:48:46:05
Speaker 2
Right. And so it's important, like we're laughing because that's objectively funny. But it's also important to remember that mentality comes from somewhere. Right. And in the case like the pest control company we bought, these were the nice it like these were the kind just guys who started. They were childhood buddies. Like you could not find two nicer people, but being a nice person and treating your employees in the way they ought to be treated is not always the same thing.

00:48:46:05 - 00:49:01:19
Speaker 2
It's not just about intention, right? You have to instantiate that by making the business work in such a way that it can support doing the things you need to do. So I think a lot of it is that it's that it's folks who went 0 to 1. They never escape that mentality and go into, okay, we have a base now.

00:49:01:19 - 00:49:06:07
Speaker 2
Let's grow now. Let's kind of big kid this thing, right. They just never get there.

00:49:06:09 - 00:49:30:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's that takes a lot of empathy when you think about what that person circumstance was when they started it. I reckon that probably having that at least mindset of recognizing, okay, that's disgusting. Yeah. But also having the reverence to go. But appreciate you getting me something to be involved with because I think that's the thing that I have found.

00:49:30:11 - 00:49:46:01
Speaker 1
There's lack of reverence I've seen with folks kind of coming into the space of like wanting to go by something and forgetting that somebody had to build it from nothing, from dust. And then there's a lot of criticism about how jacked up something is. Where I hear Patrick talking about it, you're like, great. No, it's a lot of opportunity.

00:49:46:03 - 00:50:05:22
Speaker 1
But at the same time, I have a lot of respect for the fact that, like, I didn't take it from 0 to 1. I'm taking it from one to wherever we're going to go next. Yes. How do you how do you make that? How do you balance that? Or what advice would you give folks like it's okay to recognize it ain't perfect, but definitely don't disrespect what has been built.

00:50:06:00 - 00:50:25:05
Speaker 2
Copy. I mean, this is critical, right? So I think a couple things. I think one is, the whoever you're buying from, whether it's a day later or a year later is going to be gone. Right. So I think part of it is focusing from the jump on the folks who are still going to be there after that principle is out.

00:50:25:07 - 00:50:46:00
Speaker 2
So I think the relationship you invest a lot in, a relationship with the owner during the deal phase and made is gonna sound cold to some folks. But for me, the day of closing, all that energy is gone. I don't care because that's not my constituency anymore, right? My stakeholder, I mean, in addition to my clients and my LPs and whatever, my stakeholder is the team.

00:50:46:02 - 00:51:04:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, hopefully they're going to stay, right. Or at least the ones who are delivering. So it's like, that's my team. I don't care about Jeff or Susan or whoever I bought it from. They're out the door. The other advice I would give, and I talked to some folks about this at at summit, everyone is focused on can I get an earnout?

00:51:04:16 - 00:51:23:06
Speaker 2
Can I keep them there for a year? Can I get the benefit of their knowledge? A you can probably get almost everything you need to know during the diligence phase. Unless it's too short, you can get a ton of it, way more than you think. B at some point you got to rip that Band-Aid off and go, it's got to be yours, right?

00:51:23:10 - 00:51:39:22
Speaker 2
So again, that might sound a little bit, but like if there's one thing I would do differently, we haven't over indexed on, hey, come in and you got to train me. And I got like, we've kind of been pretty moderate on that. I'm going to be even more relentless on that going forward. I want to transition to be one day.

00:51:40:00 - 00:51:44:09
Speaker 1
It's quick and out, go less, force yourself in that corner and you got to you got to figure it out.

00:51:44:10 - 00:52:00:01
Speaker 2
It's going to be your job eventually, whether it's your job three months from now or it's your job today. Like the longer you delay it, the longer you're not getting started. That's the way I look at it now. And so to the reference point be kind. Be empathetic. Be respectful. Right. Don't come in and just start. Don't have your strategy.

00:52:00:01 - 00:52:04:09
Speaker 2
Be talking about how dumb the last guy was to your team. That's not going to get you anywhere. In addition, maybe.

00:52:04:09 - 00:52:07:18
Speaker 1
The old teammates really love the old guy. Right? Then what did you guys do?

00:52:07:19 - 00:52:20:09
Speaker 2
Exactly right. Exactly. So you got to be respectful when you got to do those things, but at the same time, like you bought it. Yeah. Because you don't want to be in charge and take responsibility. Why did you buy it? Right.

00:52:20:11 - 00:52:40:12
Speaker 1
The it's on that note too, I think we'll probably forget is that you get this, this founder who built this thing. But you're he he or she probably also had who are hopefully maybe still on the team some really critical players that built a lot of the systems. It might still be gross. This is probably what I hear you saying is it's yours now, but also still be delicate about the way in which you approach.

00:52:40:12 - 00:52:55:19
Speaker 1
Just like fixing everything overnight. This is why I heard you say ask what's bothering them. Not like, hey, let me start tearing up all your SOPs and stuff to begin with. Because Fred, who's still on the team, who's maybe the field manager going like, well, I built all those. Yeah, this guy didn't like my staff. Or maybe I need to leave.

00:52:55:20 - 00:53:06:02
Speaker 1
You got to be kind of delicate with those things, right? Even with the folks that are not founders are the ones who built it. But folks are probably crucial to that for owners. Yes. Development there. Yes.

00:53:06:07 - 00:53:22:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think that takes the shape like on the ground. I think a lot of the time that takes the shape of saying very explicitly to folks, I don't know how to do your job. Like I'm not a pest control technician, I'm not a plumber, I'm not a mover. Right. And yeah, you got to learn enough about that to know what the hell is going on.

00:53:22:12 - 00:53:36:12
Speaker 2
But it's about saying explicitly, I don't know that. Let me tell you what I am good at. Here's the skills I bring to the table. You bring these other ones, right? Let's be a team. And you got to be explicit about that. I think also to your point about maybe, you know, maybe this is the guy who built that.

00:53:36:12 - 00:53:39:04
Speaker 2
Right. Ask a lot of questions. Right?

00:53:39:04 - 00:53:41:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Don't step on your toes, man. Yeah.

00:53:41:12 - 00:53:54:16
Speaker 2
You got to meet people where they are. You got to not make too many assumptions, but ask a lot of questions. And what I found to be very effective is to say, if you're going to change a process, right, say, hey, we're going to be making a policy change about this. We're going to do this a different way.

00:53:54:18 - 00:54:10:04
Speaker 2
Let me tell you why we're going to try it that way. And guess what? I have a scoreboard for me too. If we do this and it works and you know it's not as good writer doesn't work like I think you all are going to tell me and tell me I was an idiot and we're going to go back or we're going to try something different.

00:54:10:06 - 00:54:25:13
Speaker 2
Just tell people, right, I'm doing this for a reason. Yeah. And what they don't want to hear is I'm doing it because, you know, whatever I learned it, whatever private equity firm or I learned that at Harvard. Like, no one gives a shit, right? They don't want to know that. They want to know. Why is it you think we should make this change?

00:54:25:15 - 00:54:49:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Come on. Because I think the other thing that folks go to that that communication is as old as was on a power trip, you know, and the reality of is most folks are not unfortunate. They don't communicate why they're doing what they're doing. And folks just it's a good thing. It's kind of this double edged sword. Like there's a there's a beauty in folks taking offense to something you're doing because it means they have some level of ownership of what you're messing around with.

00:54:49:05 - 00:54:50:03
Speaker 1
So that's a good thing.

00:54:50:03 - 00:54:55:19
Speaker 2
Give me somebody who's mad about a process change any day because that's someone who cares, right? I totally agree.

00:54:55:21 - 00:54:56:04
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:54:56:04 - 00:54:57:03
Speaker 2
Totally agree.

00:54:57:05 - 00:55:23:01
Speaker 1
So before we talk capital. So because I want to I want to kind of get into that, that's a that's a part on this show that we don't always talk a ton about now because it is an important. But it's a lot of what we focus on is kind of the heart of like running a biz. I think what I'd like to ask is more in the in the spirit of a guy who who's seen the corporate kind of high octane law stuff and now is kind of moved into this world where really the businesses you work with are about it is like homegrown is they go.

00:55:23:01 - 00:55:23:19
Speaker 2
100%.

00:55:23:19 - 00:55:31:23
Speaker 1
Why do you love it? Like, what about that? This life just feels way more at peace with you. Or maybe it doesn't, I don't know.

00:55:32:00 - 00:55:53:21
Speaker 2
No, mostly it does. I'm lucky. I think it's a combination of things. I love to tell you it's delivering value for the customer. Right. Which does feel good, and I enjoy, but maybe not really. I'd love to tell you it's investing in people and making their lives better. Who do these jobs every day? They're movers. They're like, that has a ton of value.

00:55:53:21 - 00:56:15:02
Speaker 2
I value tremendously. But ultimately, selfishly, that's probably not it either. For me, it's the kind of satisfaction of the problem solving, like in terms of like what? Actually in my day to day life, like what makes me tick. That's that's it for me. And I think I've learned to make peace with the parts that are not as fun.

00:56:15:02 - 00:56:28:05
Speaker 2
And I've learned to accept the parts that are just going to continuously disappoint you. But that part felt good to me the first time. Your day one when we did this, and still feels good to me now, is the the problem solving part.

00:56:28:07 - 00:56:47:14
Speaker 1
Is it? So you like the idea of getting up in the morning and having a fire to put out, or having a thing to, to tinker with and to figure out how to make. That's what makes you tick. Yeah. Whereas like the laugh before felt a little on the rails. I'm just like doing this thing every day and I know what it is and it's kind of boring.

00:56:47:16 - 00:57:03:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was just. And like, that tells you something, right? It tells like, you know, you're you're pushing back in a good way here because what you did, I think the tension you're hitting on is it's not like high level lawyering isn't problem solving. Like clearly it is.

00:57:03:06 - 00:57:03:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:57:03:20 - 00:57:37:05
Speaker 2
But what's the result? Right. So it's like the result if I solve you know, there's some thorny issue in this M&A litigation. The result is someone pays our firm $10 million and we figure out how to get them out of this cheaper. Okay fine. Great as economic value. But here it's like if we can come up with a better scheduling system or a better training process or a better payment process, like whatever, like pick any operational things, like then people's lives get easier and it's less like just little frustrating, annoying shit in your face every day.

00:57:37:05 - 00:57:55:19
Speaker 2
Like, great. Just it's like, I just like things to work. Yeah. And my full time job now basically is making sure things work, like, that's my whole job, right? Yes. We also identify new opportunities. And there's a financial engineering part of it and stuff too. Like that's interesting. But like it's just making things work better.

00:57:55:21 - 00:58:07:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's a no. I think it is more wholesome. It's hard to it's hard to convey that, like I don't I think you're right. It is. And you're right. I was pushing on just because I think there's a lot of folks out there who are like, yeah, but I'm making a difference here. Yeah, I think you objectively are.

00:58:08:02 - 00:58:39:18
Speaker 1
But I think to your point, it's really the tangibility of like what it is. And it is a hard thing to describe until you've probably done it and you realize, like, it's just cool to see the faces of your people. Like, you can see that tangible, like whatever that happens when you fake something for them or a customer that is just happier, or a customer that isn't happy, versus a lot of, I think what happens when you're in the world of and again, no fault anybody who works in big corporate or government or whatever, you almost are numb.

00:58:39:18 - 00:58:58:19
Speaker 1
Like that feeling isn't really there for one reason or another. And some people I think are okay with it. But it sounds like to me, what I'm hearing you say is the folks that are in this, in this world and do well in the small business world, they're probably the same kind of folks who appreciate more of that immediate and tactile feedback.

00:58:58:19 - 00:58:59:12
Speaker 1
And what they do.

00:58:59:13 - 00:59:18:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, tactile is a good word for it. It's it's so tangible, right? So immediate. It's like you make a change and like this happened, for example, I talk to you guys about this yesterday. We're considering making a change in terms of how we deal with our clients at the moving company in Dallas who want us to invoice them for moves who, like, you know, an apartment building, for example.

00:59:18:18 - 00:59:35:14
Speaker 2
They're going to do model moves or relocation. And there's a process around that. And I kind of looked at some data and said, hey, I want to make a change on this. And we talked about it for three minutes and then rolled it out. And then that's an immediate solve for the operations manager that we have in that office who runs that process.

00:59:35:20 - 00:59:41:12
Speaker 2
It's going to make things easier for her. It's going to streamline, operate like it's it's just right there.

00:59:41:15 - 00:59:42:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:59:42:10 - 01:00:00:15
Speaker 2
If you fix it then things get better. It's just right there. Whereas like in the in the law firm, it's not like you're not solving a problem. But it's so like I'm doing something today and then it's going to have this 93 step ripple effect that's going to matter. And emotions hearing 36 months from now. What what even like what even is that?

01:00:00:20 - 01:00:14:15
Speaker 2
It reminds me I don't know if you've seen Margin Call, one of my favorite movies ever was the directorial debut of this guy, Jake Chandler. He's a genius, but it's kind of set up like a play. But it takes place in the collapse of a big bank, and there's a scene in which a character played by Stanley Tucci is talking about.

01:00:14:15 - 01:00:41:00
Speaker 2
He's a risk analyst. He does this crazy financial engineering stuff, and he's telling this story about he used to be an engineer, and one of the things he did was he built this bridge in West Virginia that connected these two areas that were previously. Yeah, take this big, circuitous route. And he does the math in his head in real time about how many years of time it's saved the people in those communities to not have to go the, you know, silly way and to have the bridge instead, he's like, it's years of people's lives.

01:00:41:00 - 01:00:52:23
Speaker 2
They're not spending like, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's the difference I'm talking about. It's just the tangibility and how immediate it is. And like, that just feels much better to me.

01:00:53:01 - 01:01:18:09
Speaker 1
It's, again, probably a hard thing to convey, but I think it resonates with the town of folks. I want to close out on, on talking about kind of you have a really unique role where you are operating these businesses. You get your fingers really deep into it, but at the same time, you also have the eye of an investor and somebody who thinks about building a portfolio of these things, to the extent like that makes sense here, like love for you to just talk about one.

01:01:18:09 - 01:01:40:15
Speaker 1
The thing I'm curious about is just like how you manage all those things going on, and then to. How do you think about money in this world? Like, I think that is something that we definitely are. I mean, we're championing hey, look, operate your ideas about impact small business, make a difference in your community. Yeah, but money is still the lifeblood of what makes this stuff go or not go in a lot of ways to even get started.

01:01:40:15 - 01:01:47:05
Speaker 1
So first thing I guess is managing your day to day. Like how do you how do you split that 30, 30, 30? I'm curious.

01:01:47:07 - 01:02:00:08
Speaker 2
No. I try to let the game come to me in the sense of, there's obviously going to be a core things need to happen on a regular cadence, and that's important. And I think you got to kind of figure out what those things are. And then, you know, the most essential things, you kind of block out.

01:02:00:08 - 01:02:20:07
Speaker 2
It's like, hey, those are going to happen, whether it's financial management or checking in with people or whatever it is. Right. But in terms of how the day gets allocated, it's according to need. So there's obviously part of it's reactive, right. Like what's happening, is there an emergency or whatever. And then on the proactive part, I think it's just about where can I make an impact today.

01:02:20:09 - 01:02:32:22
Speaker 2
So I think about it in terms of like why I can solve this problem today is going to have a really good ripple effect later, or we can roll out of change and try to capture more market share through whatever it may be. So it's kind of a combination of things. I try not to be overly rigid about it.

01:02:33:00 - 01:02:50:12
Speaker 2
The only system I found that works really well for me over the years is, I keep a I use a notepad for like, tasks. I don't use any of the fancy tools I use, like basically a text tool, and it only has it doesn't even have like special care. Like it's literally just text. And it's like the handful of things on a particular day.

01:02:50:12 - 01:03:02:06
Speaker 2
Like I got to do these and everything else. I try to hold up here and that works better for me. That probably sounds nuts to some people, but it works. It works way better for me to do it that way.

01:03:02:08 - 01:03:07:16
Speaker 1
It's very small business of yeah, yeah, sure, it's scrappy in 90. Is it a yellow legal pad or is it.

01:03:07:20 - 01:03:19:21
Speaker 2
No, it's like tronic because I need to be able to sync it. But it's. The point is it's not one of these, like, no tools. It has like there's 900 tabs and there's buttons. You know, it's literally text. It's literally the whole thing. Yeah.

01:03:19:23 - 01:03:26:01
Speaker 1
I know we give a lot of, a lot of, well intended grief to our P buddies out there. And I think that.

01:03:26:02 - 01:03:27:00
Speaker 2
Is our most yeah.

01:03:27:05 - 01:04:00:10
Speaker 1
The impetus behind that, I'll tell folks, like, a lot of it has to do with the fact that, like, what I really love about operating in folks who are running a business is like less than a degree removed from like actual value creation. Like these guys and gals are out there on the frontline doing the work and creating value, whereas there's a lot of financial engineering in Patagonia versus like somewhere else, like trying to make it think that they've created value when it's just arbitrage and sometimes, like all that, to say that there's still a component, though, of the money part and what y'all do investing in putting it in to just give a little

01:04:00:10 - 01:04:14:19
Speaker 1
bit. We're actually chatting about that right before we started. Yeah. And probably a cool way to close out. Like I think about how should folks be thinking about their role and being kind of their own little investment engine. That's ultimately what they're doing as they even though take on the reins of this business.

01:04:14:20 - 01:04:41:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I think it's a couple things. I think, item one is get comfortable with the idea of you got to be vertically integrated. Right. So you're asking me, okay, you're juggling these different things. You're looking at deals, you're running the, you know, business. How do you do it? Get comfortable with the idea that to do this kind of thing successfully, you need to be, sort of, at least, at least have, a safe degree of confidence in all the core areas, from top to bottom.

01:04:41:10 - 01:05:05:00
Speaker 2
What do I mean by that? Sourcing, evaluation, financial modeling and analytics and planning the deal process. Right. Operations, which is, of course, that bucket is this big, right? You got to be able to sell, right of what sector you got to be able to sell, people management. Right? Like there's all these different things that you got to do, all of it, to do this full stop.

01:05:05:02 - 01:05:24:13
Speaker 2
That does not mean you have to do it alone, but you got to do it right. So I think getting comfortable with that is one thing in terms of the money part, the way I think of like private equity is like there's basically three ways to create value or unlock value. One is financial engineering, right. So leverage mostly is what we're talking about there.

01:05:24:15 - 01:05:42:15
Speaker 2
The other is stripping or cost cutting. Right. Which everyone, when they think of private equity, this is what they think of. Right. They think of I'm going to buy the hospital chain and lay off nurses and, you know, like that's what they think of, and there's a lot of that that goes around if you're interested in 1 or 2 or just wanting to.

01:05:42:17 - 01:05:52:18
Speaker 2
This is not for you. Three is post-closing enterprise value creation.

01:05:52:20 - 01:06:09:17
Speaker 2
Post-closing meaning once you've closed, it's too late to do anything other than that, right? Yes. Maybe you can get smart about a refi down the road. Or you could do certain things, but like at the end of the day, you don't control the interest rate environment. You don't you can't go undo the deals you made with your LPs, right.

01:06:09:17 - 01:06:31:19
Speaker 2
Or your seller. So 100% of the value is unlocked. Post-closing can you find past organic growth? Right. Can you develop? Can you grow market share? Can you add branches or offices? Can you grow the team like that's the thing. So you have to be able to get through the whole thing. You got to understand it. You can't outsource all the details to somebody else, right?

01:06:31:19 - 01:06:50:14
Speaker 2
You got to dig in, with help. But the value creation I'm interested in is the third bucket. It's not funny. Hearing is fun and great. Cost cutting can has its place and can be very useful and healthy for an enterprise. But ultimately it's it's value creation as an operator. Like, that's it. That's the whole thing.

01:06:50:16 - 01:07:06:10
Speaker 2
If you're not interested in that, which is fine, or if you aren't interested in building the skills you need to do that. This is not this is not the game you should be playing. If you want to be a private equity analyst and do financial engineering, great, go do it. There's a lot that's a good job like this.

01:07:06:12 - 01:07:08:23
Speaker 2
There's plenty of room for folks to do that. Right. But that's not this.

01:07:09:04 - 01:07:11:04
Speaker 1
That's not what you want to do here. That's not what do you do here?

01:07:11:04 - 01:07:13:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's not this Patrick Courtney.

01:07:13:16 - 01:07:33:16
Speaker 1
Thank you man I appreciate you jumping on here the horn and helping folks. I know for a fact folks will find a ton of value. Not only not only how you think about it, but who you are. I think that's the thing that a lot of folks are so much great talent out there. I meet people every single day that are, I think would make incredible operators and do this thing.

01:07:33:17 - 01:07:47:04
Speaker 1
It just in a lot of ways it's equally like trending and equally becoming more. I think, real and scary for some folks. But I think you heard it today that like a little bit that fear is healthy. I think it's it kind of keeps you honest.

01:07:47:07 - 01:08:09:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. If there's one thing like just, you know, keep this thought in your head, right. It's like, if I think about my actual day to day right now, it's basically financial planning and analysis, management of people. Right. And, top line development. Right. Which I'm lucky enough to have a partner who helps with that. But like these are three areas in which I have no training, skill or expertise of any kind.

01:08:09:17 - 01:08:12:02
Speaker 1
In law school. No.

01:08:12:04 - 01:08:14:02
Speaker 2
So you can do it. It can be done.

01:08:14:04 - 01:08:15:03
Speaker 1
Patrick. Thank you brother.

01:08:15:03 - 01:08:16:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. Great to be here.

01:08:16:14 - 01:08:42:13
Speaker 1
Thanks for tuning in to the American Operator Podcast, where we celebrate the backbone of America small business owners and operators like you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so you'll never miss out on more of these stories and insights from people who keep our community strong. Until next time, keep building, keep operating and keep America moving forward.