Combat Fighter Pilot Gave Up His Dream Of Being An Astronaut To Become The Commander Of The Thunderbirds I Col Justin "Astro" Elliott I AO 36

He gave up his dream of becoming an astronaut to lead the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds. Col. Justin “Astro” Elliott’s story is one of grit, leadership, and choosing the harder path.

Col. Justin “Astro” Elliott grew up in Houston, with NASA in his backyard and space in his sights. A first-generation Canadian-American, he fought through obstacles—like poor eyesight that nearly ended his aviation career before it began—to become a combat fighter pilot. His journey took him through the grueling halls of test pilot school, combat deployments, and eventually the elite ranks of the Air Force’s Fighter Weapons School—known as the real-life “Top Gun.”

But when the call came to apply for NASA, Elliott made a decision few could fathom: he withdrew his astronaut application to become Commander of the Thunderbirds. Leading one of the most recognizable teams in the world, he found himself at the intersection of precision flying, leadership under pressure, and carrying the weight of inspiring an entire generation.

In this episode, Col. Elliott shares lessons on resilience, trust, and sacrifice. From making split-second life-or-death calls in the cockpit to the power of debriefs, EQ in leadership, and why humility matters more than celebrity—his story reminds us that chasing excellence often means choosing the harder path.

Real stories. Real ownership. Real lessons from the field.
This is American Operator

Join the Movement
Tactical insights and behind-the-scenes stories from America’s operators:

• Website: www.americanoperator.com
• AO In Action: https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanOperator
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theamericanoperator
• Newsletter: https://americanoperator.substack.com

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:15
Speaker 1
Hard work. Real talk. No shortcuts. I'm Joseph Cabrera. This is American operator.

00:00:09:15 - 00:00:22:16
Speaker 3
All right, team, we are here in Colorado Springs. Still not in our Austin studio. We've been on our Colorado world tour. And I want to say I'm super stoked about being able to do this show today. Here, would be an understatement.

00:00:22:16 - 00:00:44:19
Speaker 3
One, because it's different than anything we've done before, any kind of guest we've had before. And to any anytime I get to hang out with a fellow warrior here, especially someone still serving, it matters. So we have Justin here. Who? Man, a lot of call signs. Astro. I'm sure you've had some fun call signs in the middle between there, but probably if you've watched Netflix, specifically the Thunderbirds there, this would be Thunderbirds.

00:00:44:22 - 00:01:02:17
Speaker 3
But they're number one and the commander of the entire squadron. And if you haven't watched it, I'll tell you right now. Pause this podcast. Go watch it, then come back and listen to this thing pulls at the heart strings and makes Topgun feel like a cakewalk. So, Brother Man, thank you for letting us come to your place here and hang out with you today.

00:01:02:20 - 00:01:12:14
Speaker 2
Thanks, Jesse. It's amazing to have you guys here. And, I have a lot of respect for what you do and and what you continue to do to to bring people together from different walks of life and and encourage Americans.

00:01:12:14 - 00:01:30:06
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, well, the I having you on this thing when I told the team we do for a lot of folks don't know behind the scenes we do a lot of, like production sausage making behind the house. We're putting guests. Does that fit? How's this going to go? Logistics. All those things and army thing. Logistics out the door.

00:01:30:08 - 00:01:44:09
Speaker 3
But the reality of it is when we when we put your. It was a total different thing. And in my mind, I thought there's a 5050 chance the team goes that. That makes no sense. Zero rebuts on it. It was like, we go in tomorrow, you know, like, when are we going to go talk to Justin?

00:01:44:11 - 00:01:58:06
Speaker 3
You know, Colonel Elliot there. When are we going to go do that? So man, so stoked to be here. I think it would be great. Just kind of kick off with for folks who maybe don't know the what it takes to kind of get to even just beginning to have a chance to be a fighter pilot. Talk to me about where you grew up.

00:01:58:08 - 00:02:03:13
Speaker 3
Yeah, maybe a little bit about your folks and then how you kind of led you to potentially exploring the Air Force's career.

00:02:03:14 - 00:02:05:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.

00:02:05:04 - 00:02:08:03
Speaker 1
We got to go way back. I think that.

00:02:08:03 - 00:02:20:22
Speaker 2
Context is important. So both of my parents immigrated from Canada back in the day. So I'm first gen American, in the US. We grew up in Houston and my whole life was spent in Houston, Texas, you know, and till I got to college.

00:02:21:00 - 00:02:21:17
Speaker 1
In that context.

00:02:21:17 - 00:02:30:15
Speaker 2
Is important because what I was surrounded by down there was not military, but but NASA was right there in your backyard. And that is an easy thing to get inspired by. The very best.

00:02:30:15 - 00:02:31:23
Speaker 1
People in the world doing amazing.

00:02:31:23 - 00:02:33:23
Speaker 2
Things. And,

00:02:34:01 - 00:02:35:12
Speaker 1
You know, I'm a I was a young.

00:02:35:12 - 00:02:38:04
Speaker 2
Kid when, when challenger blew up. So you.

00:02:38:04 - 00:02:38:16
Speaker 1
Know that.

00:02:38:17 - 00:02:39:05
Speaker 3
That,

00:02:39:07 - 00:02:39:16
Speaker 1
It was a.

00:02:39:16 - 00:02:42:04
Speaker 2
Very impactful memory for me as a.

00:02:42:04 - 00:02:42:23
Speaker 1
As a young.

00:02:42:23 - 00:02:45:19
Speaker 2
Child. So I would draw space shuttles all the time.

00:02:45:19 - 00:02:48:17
Speaker 1
And when I got to, kind of my.

00:02:48:17 - 00:02:54:13
Speaker 2
Teen years and started looking at what I was going to do with my life, I started.

00:02:54:13 - 00:02:55:14
Speaker 1
Looking at what the.

00:02:55:14 - 00:03:00:10
Speaker 2
Background was for astronauts, NASA astronauts, and a lot of them were test pilots from either the Air Force or the.

00:03:00:10 - 00:03:01:07
Speaker 1
Navy.

00:03:01:09 - 00:03:02:02
Speaker 2
And so I was like, okay.

00:03:02:02 - 00:03:03:15
Speaker 1
I guess I got to do that, you know.

00:03:03:15 - 00:03:05:03
Speaker 3
Sent me to be a test pilot, so.

00:03:05:04 - 00:03:06:13
Speaker 1
To say, okay, so experimental.

00:03:06:13 - 00:03:07:08
Speaker 2
Test pilots.

00:03:07:08 - 00:03:09:11
Speaker 1
Are able to fly anything.

00:03:09:13 - 00:03:19:08
Speaker 2
So anything from rotary wing helicopters to blimps to large airplanes to World War Two sea planes, literally all of these things I'm listing are in the test pilot school syllabus.

00:03:19:10 - 00:03:33:12
Speaker 1
Year long program that you say balloons? Yeah. Balloons. Oh, yeah. And if it flies, it could be the next thing. Right. So, so we learned how to basically just, take apart a new thing and.

00:03:33:12 - 00:03:35:12
Speaker 2
Learn how to fly it and see if it works and bring.

00:03:35:12 - 00:03:39:08
Speaker 1
It back safely ish, and then give feedback to.

00:03:39:08 - 00:03:40:10
Speaker 2
The engineers on,

00:03:40:12 - 00:03:41:14
Speaker 1
On what to do with it next.

00:03:41:18 - 00:03:44:07
Speaker 3
So. So you knew that was a baseline for being an asshole?

00:03:44:08 - 00:03:45:10
Speaker 1
I knew I knew back.

00:03:45:10 - 00:03:51:04
Speaker 2
Then it was a hard criteria. This was like the middle of the shuttle era, and it was just what you had to do.

00:03:51:04 - 00:03:54:07
Speaker 1
So yeah, as I was kind of having these.

00:03:54:07 - 00:04:07:16
Speaker 2
Conversations with my parents growing up, and I've got two younger sisters, too, the military was the last thing on their mind, you know, as, as immigrants. And, but they're they're actually very patriotic in their way because they chose to come here. Right.

00:04:07:16 - 00:04:09:11
Speaker 1
So it, and that's.

00:04:09:11 - 00:04:11:19
Speaker 2
A trend I see, over and over.

00:04:12:00 - 00:04:15:15
Speaker 1
So they chose to come here. They believe in what we, what we believe in.

00:04:15:15 - 00:04:16:09
Speaker 2
And so.

00:04:16:09 - 00:04:17:07
Speaker 1
When I was 18.

00:04:17:08 - 00:04:17:18
Speaker 2
I was like.

00:04:17:18 - 00:04:18:22
Speaker 1
Hey, I think I'm going.

00:04:18:22 - 00:04:22:00
Speaker 2
To do this. I think I'm going to go into the military.

00:04:22:02 - 00:04:26:03
Speaker 1
Even at that point, we had one big, big.

00:04:26:03 - 00:04:27:09
Speaker 2
Barrier and that was my.

00:04:27:09 - 00:04:33:16
Speaker 1
Eyesight. So this is pretty important for me. So I was I did not have good eyesight as a kid.

00:04:33:16 - 00:04:35:17
Speaker 2
You know, I had, glasses. I was a huge dork.

00:04:35:17 - 00:04:44:20
Speaker 1
Huge. But, I was a swimmer, which helped a little bit get into college and stuff, but, Yeah, I had glasses. I had, like, for those who know, glasses, contact.

00:04:44:20 - 00:04:45:13
Speaker 2
Prescriptions, I was at.

00:04:45:13 - 00:04:47:06
Speaker 1
-5.5.

00:04:47:06 - 00:04:48:16
Speaker 2
So pretty bad, in fact.

00:04:48:16 - 00:04:51:22
Speaker 1
Turns out to be the absolute edge of, like, possible.

00:04:51:22 - 00:04:54:13
Speaker 2
For getting laser surgery in the Air Force.

00:04:54:15 - 00:04:56:18
Speaker 1
But when I went into college, I.

00:04:56:18 - 00:05:01:18
Speaker 2
Went on an ROTC scholarship, so I went to Yale, I swam for Yale, I did mechanical engineering, and I did.

00:05:01:18 - 00:05:07:08
Speaker 1
ROTC, as a as a class of one because it wasn't on.

00:05:07:08 - 00:05:08:19
Speaker 2
Campus at the time and had I oh.

00:05:08:21 - 00:05:09:11
Speaker 3
That's right.

00:05:09:11 - 00:05:09:16
Speaker 1
Off.

00:05:09:16 - 00:05:11:14
Speaker 2
Campus back after Vietnam.

00:05:11:14 - 00:05:14:01
Speaker 3
So this year with a couple other universities were way too.

00:05:14:01 - 00:05:14:19
Speaker 1
So I would drive.

00:05:14:19 - 00:05:15:07
Speaker 2
The University.

00:05:15:07 - 00:05:16:07
Speaker 1
Of Connecticut back and.

00:05:16:07 - 00:05:21:11
Speaker 2
Forth, twice a week. And then by my senior year, it was, happening a lot more frequently than that.

00:05:21:14 - 00:05:22:07
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:05:22:09 - 00:05:25:04
Speaker 3
Was just controversial. Is that why they didn't keep it on campus or.

00:05:25:04 - 00:05:29:06
Speaker 1
It was. So it was when when when Vietnam kicked off, it was. Yep.

00:05:29:07 - 00:05:31:00
Speaker 2
It was it was a lot of protests.

00:05:31:00 - 00:05:33:13
Speaker 1
And they ended up taking ROTC.

00:05:33:13 - 00:05:47:13
Speaker 2
Off campus. And then they just didn't bring it back until after I graduated. So I went to see it around 2009, they finally pulled the trigger and brought it back to campus. And now it's actually a thriving detachment. But there was yeah, there was a dark day there when.

00:05:47:17 - 00:05:49:11
Speaker 1
You had 1 or 2 year cadets.

00:05:49:11 - 00:05:50:07
Speaker 2
A year, or sometimes.

00:05:50:07 - 00:05:51:01
Speaker 1
None.

00:05:51:03 - 00:05:57:08
Speaker 2
And we would cross town out to, University of Connecticut. That 1152 to do ROTC.

00:05:57:10 - 00:05:58:14
Speaker 1
Of notes.

00:05:58:16 - 00:06:01:13
Speaker 2
My first day of ROTC was September 11th.

00:06:01:15 - 00:06:02:03
Speaker 1
Get out.

00:06:02:05 - 00:06:03:04
Speaker 2
You September 11th.

00:06:03:04 - 00:06:09:09
Speaker 3
Really? I mean, we just celebrated that yesterday or. Yeah, yesterday. What a it. Why Yale?

00:06:09:11 - 00:06:14:17
Speaker 1
So for, you know, athletes, a lot of that's driven by where.

00:06:14:17 - 00:06:22:00
Speaker 2
You are recruited. So I was recruited to swim 200 breaststroke for it, and I am for you. And, and that that that's what got me in the door.

00:06:22:00 - 00:06:24:07
Speaker 1
But you know what's funny? Despite not.

00:06:24:07 - 00:06:27:06
Speaker 2
Having ROTC on campus.

00:06:27:08 - 00:06:29:01
Speaker 1
The nostalgia.

00:06:29:03 - 00:06:33:05
Speaker 2
Around Yale's service history is amazing.

00:06:33:07 - 00:06:35:06
Speaker 3
You all were here. I was coming from the university.

00:06:35:11 - 00:06:39:04
Speaker 1
And when you walk into that main hallway called Woolsey Hall.

00:06:39:05 - 00:06:52:16
Speaker 2
You have this rotunda where everyone who has passed away in combat on behalf of the United States, who graduated from Yale, is etched into the wall. And it goes back to the American Revolution and before and all the way through the Civil War.

00:06:52:16 - 00:06:54:07
Speaker 1
So when you you see that.

00:06:54:07 - 00:07:09:11
Speaker 2
You realize, hey, that's a we're just in a culture wave right now. This institution, 300 years and counting is a service oriented institution. It just it's going through a point where it's not it's not hot right now. But kind of wrapping that up.

00:07:09:11 - 00:07:12:18
Speaker 1
So I went into ROTC knowing that.

00:07:12:18 - 00:07:14:14
Speaker 2
According to the rules of the moment, I could.

00:07:14:14 - 00:07:17:09
Speaker 1
Not be a pilot. Now. I still wanted to do it.

00:07:17:09 - 00:07:20:09
Speaker 3
You couldn't even correct you. I mean, you had to be born with good. And. That's right.

00:07:20:13 - 00:07:20:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:07:20:18 - 00:07:22:01
Speaker 2
The laser surgery.

00:07:22:03 - 00:07:22:23
Speaker 1
That was.

00:07:22:23 - 00:07:24:18
Speaker 2
Later allowed was not a thing at that.

00:07:24:18 - 00:07:29:02
Speaker 1
Point. But I wanted it so badly. You know, that's how I got to that point.

00:07:29:02 - 00:07:38:01
Speaker 2
I was really getting interested in aviation and really trying to chase that dream to space. And I had done some flying on my own. I wanted to fly for the Air Force, but.

00:07:38:01 - 00:07:39:03
Speaker 1
I knew for.

00:07:39:03 - 00:07:42:23
Speaker 2
Those first two years of college, like, all right, I'm going to have to be an engineer for the Air Force, and that's going to be.

00:07:42:23 - 00:07:44:12
Speaker 1
Great. And I'll find a way.

00:07:44:12 - 00:07:46:02
Speaker 2
To design airplanes if I can't fly.

00:07:46:02 - 00:07:51:10
Speaker 1
Them. All right. So off we go down that road. Well, February 2003.

00:07:51:10 - 00:07:59:15
Speaker 2
I'll never forget this. The Air Force changed its policy and allowed laser for the first time. March of 2003. I got laser surgery April of 2003. I was selected.

00:07:59:15 - 00:08:01:03
Speaker 1
To be a pilot. You are right.

00:08:01:03 - 00:08:08:17
Speaker 3
You're just rear and paying attention to that criteria. Yes. For you. What was that feeling like when you learned that was the case? It just changed your whole trajectory.

00:08:08:17 - 00:08:09:17
Speaker 1
It's changed my.

00:08:09:17 - 00:08:11:05
Speaker 2
Entire life philosophy.

00:08:11:05 - 00:08:15:04
Speaker 1
JC because it was it was my.

00:08:15:06 - 00:08:21:00
Speaker 2
First of many experiences where I realized that.

00:08:21:02 - 00:08:25:01
Speaker 1
If you really want something and you do everything that you.

00:08:25:01 - 00:08:29:02
Speaker 2
Possibly can to get there, there's still absolutely no guarantee that's going to work.

00:08:29:02 - 00:08:29:16
Speaker 1
Out.

00:08:29:17 - 00:08:31:18
Speaker 2
But there's a 100% guarantee.

00:08:31:18 - 00:08:33:04
Speaker 1
That if you don't chase it.

00:08:33:06 - 00:08:34:20
Speaker 2
That it won't work out.

00:08:34:22 - 00:08:38:12
Speaker 1
So for me that was kind of a shaping moment because.

00:08:38:12 - 00:08:40:15
Speaker 2
That one happened to work.

00:08:40:17 - 00:08:44:11
Speaker 1
But I was going to go down that road anyway the best I could to.

00:08:44:11 - 00:08:46:10
Speaker 2
Provide the opportunity for when.

00:08:46:11 - 00:08:48:07
Speaker 1
When that moment hit, if it hit then.

00:08:48:07 - 00:08:52:09
Speaker 2
I would be ready to to capitalize out of that and and go fly.

00:08:52:11 - 00:08:55:14
Speaker 1
So a lot of luck. A lot of things are.

00:08:55:16 - 00:09:03:10
Speaker 3
I mean, think about I can, I know, jump in here, but I think about all that you've done. We were laughing about that a little bit ahead of time. Just one degree off and the whole life's different.

00:09:03:10 - 00:09:04:07
Speaker 2
100% if you.

00:09:04:08 - 00:09:14:19
Speaker 3
Never if that policy didn't change or you didn't read about it in time and you picked a different branch of job in the Air Force, what we have today and know about you wouldn't be a thing. It's kind of nuts to think about that.

00:09:15:01 - 00:09:17:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. It is it is interesting.

00:09:17:09 - 00:09:21:18
Speaker 2
And, you know, I like to think that everything I did to pursue that trajectory.

00:09:21:18 - 00:09:22:20
Speaker 1
Would have just shifted.

00:09:22:20 - 00:09:23:18
Speaker 2
Over a degree.

00:09:23:20 - 00:09:25:04
Speaker 1
And, you know.

00:09:25:06 - 00:09:30:15
Speaker 2
Been just as fulfilling somewhere else. But all I can say for sure is,

00:09:30:16 - 00:09:31:08
Speaker 1
Looking back.

00:09:31:08 - 00:09:34:08
Speaker 2
At it, life seems to be a combination of opportunities.

00:09:34:08 - 00:09:35:15
Speaker 1
But mostly.

00:09:35:15 - 00:09:36:17
Speaker 2
The preparation you.

00:09:36:17 - 00:09:37:07
Speaker 1
Put into.

00:09:37:07 - 00:09:40:10
Speaker 2
Being ready to take that opportunity when it finally comes your way.

00:09:40:12 - 00:09:44:03
Speaker 1
And and knowing that that may not be soon. Yeah, that may be.

00:09:44:03 - 00:09:50:06
Speaker 2
Quite distant in the future that you actually get your chance. But if you're not ready for that, then it is going to pass you by.

00:09:50:08 - 00:09:56:19
Speaker 3
Where does that come from? Is it parents? Like, how did you learn to have that level of resilience and ultimately patience with it? You know.

00:09:56:21 - 00:10:06:11
Speaker 2
Patience is a good is a good answer. I think my parents, when I was growing up, always centered on effort over performance. You know, I think they were really good at.

00:10:06:11 - 00:10:17:21
Speaker 1
Conveying young to me, that you can control what you can control. You have absolutely no idea what the 99.

00:10:17:21 - 00:10:27:23
Speaker 2
Percent influences outside are going to do and what cards you're going to get dealt, but you can control your own preparation, your own abilities, and your own skill set. So.

00:10:29:08 - 00:10:35:23
Speaker 2
That was something that I just remember from my childhood was always their anchor point was, did you give a 100% effort that was an A or B.

00:10:35:23 - 00:10:36:10
Speaker 1
But did.

00:10:36:10 - 00:10:37:21
Speaker 2
You give 100% effort? And if I.

00:10:37:21 - 00:10:40:00
Speaker 1
Didn't, they would call me out on it.

00:10:40:02 - 00:10:43:03
Speaker 3
So you you had a good, good azimuth check there every single.

00:10:43:03 - 00:10:44:02
Speaker 1
Absolutely.

00:10:44:03 - 00:11:01:07
Speaker 3
It's funny how you can how effort does kind of carry you along the way when you, when you got done with your, and you talk to me a little bit about it, especially for folks who don't really understand the process, you know, you're just not jumping right into a jet. What happens after? What is all that before you hit your first, you know, deportation, you're actually flying.

00:11:01:09 - 00:11:02:11
Speaker 1
You know, for those for.

00:11:02:11 - 00:11:03:18
Speaker 2
The All-Star service, for.

00:11:03:18 - 00:11:04:17
Speaker 1
Those with with.

00:11:04:17 - 00:11:12:19
Speaker 2
Kiddos that are coming up on that decision, on you know what to do about college, I will tell you that I had no idea what ROTC was. As a senior in high school.

00:11:12:21 - 00:11:15:08
Speaker 1
I knew I knew you could go in through the academies.

00:11:15:08 - 00:11:24:20
Speaker 2
You know, the service academies. And then I thought that was the only option. So it is worth understanding that ROTC, is college program and it is.

00:11:24:22 - 00:11:25:13
Speaker 1
No kidding.

00:11:25:13 - 00:11:29:01
Speaker 2
Tied to the United States military, it's not JROTC.

00:11:29:01 - 00:11:30:06
Speaker 1
A lot of people,

00:11:30:08 - 00:11:35:04
Speaker 2
Correlate those incorrectly. They think junior ROTC is, is what we're talking about.

00:11:35:04 - 00:11:37:22
Speaker 3
And you just like playing Army in some club you're fighting in college.

00:11:38:01 - 00:11:39:17
Speaker 1
These are two completely different things.

00:11:39:17 - 00:11:43:22
Speaker 2
Like ROTC is a full scholarship to a university of your choosing.

00:11:43:22 - 00:11:46:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, huge, huge opportunity.

00:11:46:00 - 00:11:48:12
Speaker 2
And, just.

00:11:48:16 - 00:11:49:20
Speaker 1
Just because I.

00:11:49:20 - 00:11:56:03
Speaker 2
Was there, I was that senior in high school that I had no idea what that was. And thankfully somebody told me about it.

00:11:56:07 - 00:12:10:21
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, it's such a it's a it's a sliver of the world. People can have their thoughts about joining the military now, but it's, it's one and the same. When I actually, I was not thinking about going to the Academy, it was I had gotten a full ride ROTC scholarship. University of Texas. Yep. That's where was going to go.

00:12:10:23 - 00:12:19:15
Speaker 3
Only later did I actually kind of started to learn about this other thing, but either one of those would have been highly acceptable to be serve in uniform and. Absolutely.

00:12:19:17 - 00:12:20:07
Speaker 2
Absolutely.

00:12:20:07 - 00:12:24:00
Speaker 1
And it yeah, it's so to answer your question. So leaving.

00:12:24:00 - 00:12:29:20
Speaker 2
College now. So I commission as a second lieutenant. It's the youngest officer rank. You have no idea what you're doing.

00:12:29:20 - 00:12:32:02
Speaker 1
That's a good thing because it leaves those.

00:12:32:02 - 00:12:32:16
Speaker 2
Doors in.

00:12:32:16 - 00:12:35:04
Speaker 1
Your mind open to receiving inputs from. The people have.

00:12:35:04 - 00:12:37:06
Speaker 2
Been doing this for a long time. Yes.

00:12:37:07 - 00:12:37:19
Speaker 1
And.

00:12:37:19 - 00:12:41:15
Speaker 2
The first the first step is you go to pilot training and you learn how to fly.

00:12:41:16 - 00:12:43:19
Speaker 1
Anything. And in this case.

00:12:43:19 - 00:12:44:19
Speaker 2
You know, in my area, it was.

00:12:44:19 - 00:12:46:08
Speaker 1
The T-6 Texan to which.

00:12:46:08 - 00:12:49:02
Speaker 2
Do you fly for about seven months, and then you get into the T-38.

00:12:49:02 - 00:12:50:08
Speaker 3
Talon is a Texan, a prop.

00:12:50:09 - 00:12:54:17
Speaker 2
Texans a prop. Yeah, Texas a prop. Pretty, pretty powerful one belt, you know, for three.

00:12:54:17 - 00:12:58:03
Speaker 1
Hundred and 50 miles an hour, six GS, decent, decent.

00:12:58:03 - 00:12:59:05
Speaker 2
Aircraft to fly around.

00:12:59:07 - 00:13:00:01
Speaker 3
Double seater or.

00:13:00:01 - 00:13:05:18
Speaker 1
Whatever it is a two seater. You know, for for everybody sake, that's the right answer.

00:13:05:20 - 00:13:06:11
Speaker 3
Not too many.

00:13:06:11 - 00:13:07:02
Speaker 1
Open doors is.

00:13:07:02 - 00:13:09:17
Speaker 3
A second lieutenant. Yeah. Like you're going to have a chaperon.

00:13:09:19 - 00:13:15:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Who's correcting you constantly. And, pilot training stuff.

00:13:15:14 - 00:13:29:16
Speaker 2
Pilots training is, a year and a little bit long, very intense academically. You know, they don't kid around about knowing your systems and memorizing everything about that airplane. Every emergency that can happen, and then you're just learning how to fly.

00:13:29:18 - 00:13:30:19
Speaker 1
And there's a little bit of an.

00:13:30:19 - 00:13:42:09
Speaker 2
Introduction to military flying with formation, flight and, aerobatics, a little bit of robotics. Okay. But I'll tell you this, the shocker is always formation. I don't care who you are.

00:13:42:11 - 00:13:44:16
Speaker 3
Is just getting close to each other. Yeah. I just didn't feel right.

00:13:44:16 - 00:13:46:05
Speaker 1
All you can think about is that.

00:13:46:05 - 00:13:47:07
Speaker 2
Spinning propeller.

00:13:47:13 - 00:13:56:12
Speaker 1
Sitting right next to the wing. You know, of your friend next to you, and you're like, if I miss inside right now, I'm going to chop his wing off.

00:13:56:12 - 00:13:57:23
Speaker 2
And I'm also going to crash.

00:13:57:23 - 00:14:00:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. And that's really what your mind.

00:14:00:18 - 00:14:10:09
Speaker 3
Can only make. I mean, give me your first like a day or two there. Like what was what was happening? I can't imagine that's just a complete shock to the system. Shock even already knowing what the military's about.

00:14:10:12 - 00:14:11:01
Speaker 1
Yes. I mean.

00:14:11:01 - 00:14:12:02
Speaker 2
You know, military training.

00:14:12:07 - 00:14:13:12
Speaker 1
So, so it is.

00:14:13:12 - 00:14:14:11
Speaker 2
Very similar.

00:14:14:11 - 00:14:16:02
Speaker 1
In, in it is a.

00:14:16:02 - 00:14:21:22
Speaker 2
Military course. It is formal release. You show up at 6 a.m. every morning. You have a start.

00:14:21:22 - 00:14:29:12
Speaker 1
Time, you have a scheduled out day, and then you have an end time. And no matter what in pilot training, even if you are done.

00:14:29:12 - 00:14:29:23
Speaker 2
With your.

00:14:29:23 - 00:14:32:00
Speaker 1
Day, you have to stay at.

00:14:32:00 - 00:14:36:15
Speaker 2
Least 12 hours. It is a it is a firm rule. So you leave the flight room at six.

00:14:36:15 - 00:14:39:15
Speaker 1
P m and they do that because they're trying to get.

00:14:39:15 - 00:14:45:05
Speaker 2
The point across that, hey, there is always something that you can be studying right now that you're not done.

00:14:45:05 - 00:14:46:01
Speaker 1
Because you don't.

00:14:46:01 - 00:14:51:04
Speaker 2
Know everything about every aircraft in the Air Force, and you don't know everything about even the one that you're about to fly tomorrow.

00:14:51:07 - 00:15:08:13
Speaker 3
Yeah, man. That's a it's funny how they, that stuff in different ways across the services is kind of really just, there's, like, embedded in the DNA. I remember folding our clothes a certain way and thinking, why does this matter? Your probably thought same thing. Why do I mean, I'm done? Why do I need to hang out here?

00:15:08:19 - 00:15:18:01
Speaker 3
Had an old timer. Tell me once. The way you do one thing is the way you do everything. So if you're not willing to dedicate your time now, we're building that muscle for you to give us.

00:15:18:03 - 00:15:19:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yes. And I think it.

00:15:19:17 - 00:15:22:00
Speaker 2
Also has this psychological.

00:15:22:00 - 00:15:23:05
Speaker 1
Effect of an immediate.

00:15:23:05 - 00:15:24:15
Speaker 2
Respect for the program.

00:15:24:17 - 00:15:25:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. And when you, when you show.

00:15:25:23 - 00:15:29:00
Speaker 2
Up to something that formalized.

00:15:29:02 - 00:15:32:10
Speaker 1
There is no part of you that thinks this is phoned in.

00:15:32:16 - 00:15:39:11
Speaker 2
Or, you know, there's not going to get the job done. I think trust in military training is something that,

00:15:39:13 - 00:15:41:10
Speaker 1
Is just one of the things.

00:15:41:10 - 00:15:44:05
Speaker 2
We do extremely well across all branches.

00:15:44:05 - 00:15:45:18
Speaker 1
I don't I can't imagine.

00:15:45:18 - 00:15:53:11
Speaker 2
There are trainees out there that don't think they're getting the best training in the world when they go through this. Yeah, I agree, I had a really early experience with that. If I can.

00:15:53:13 - 00:15:54:02
Speaker 1
Go back.

00:15:54:02 - 00:16:02:21
Speaker 2
Go back for a minute. After my freshman year, I got a chance to go parachute out of the Air Force Academy right out here in Springs. This is part of their free fall course.

00:16:02:23 - 00:16:03:14
Speaker 1
Where they.

00:16:03:16 - 00:16:04:08
Speaker 2
Train you for.

00:16:04:08 - 00:16:04:20
Speaker 1
Two weeks.

00:16:04:20 - 00:16:07:02
Speaker 2
In a ground trainer and then throw you out of an aircraft.

00:16:07:04 - 00:16:17:10
Speaker 1
Alone. And it's pretty amazing that it's still going on. I, I jumped out of that plane on my first.

00:16:17:10 - 00:16:19:15
Speaker 2
Jump ever by myself, and I got a line.

00:16:19:15 - 00:16:25:06
Speaker 1
Over which those who know parachuting know, and it's not fun. So the, you know, the the line of twisted.

00:16:25:06 - 00:16:28:17
Speaker 2
Over the parachute, tied it into a basically a propeller, a turbo. Yeah.

00:16:28:18 - 00:16:29:03
Speaker 3
A little bow.

00:16:29:03 - 00:16:47:16
Speaker 1
Tie. Yes. And it was just I started spinning. So, like my legs are sideways as I'm looking out, I'm like, this is not what I saw on the videos. I remember this is bad. That's about all my mind could get to you at that time. And the instructors on the ground, they will not tell you what to do.

00:16:47:16 - 00:16:50:23
Speaker 2
Because they're afraid that everyone else is going to hear the same radio.

00:16:50:23 - 00:16:51:21
Speaker 1
And jettison.

00:16:51:21 - 00:16:52:18
Speaker 2
Their chutes.

00:16:52:20 - 00:16:53:23
Speaker 3
Yeah, you know, that's exactly right.

00:16:54:04 - 00:16:55:08
Speaker 1
Ten cadets fall into the.

00:16:55:08 - 00:16:56:22
Speaker 2
Ground with no parachute.

00:16:56:22 - 00:17:04:18
Speaker 1
So all they'll say is check altitude, check altitude, check altitude. And that's all I saw. But you still get up there and and you're right there right now.

00:17:04:18 - 00:17:06:09
Speaker 2
This is 25 years ago over there.

00:17:06:15 - 00:17:12:15
Speaker 1
So, so what blew my mind about it is, you know.

00:17:12:15 - 00:17:17:06
Speaker 2
19 year old me falling in a spin on my first jump ever.

00:17:17:08 - 00:17:22:09
Speaker 1
And it just happened, right? I just did what I was supposed to do. I still remember the.

00:17:22:09 - 00:17:26:21
Speaker 2
Checklists, throw outs, look, Polaroids, check. Tail pack. I still remember jettisoning things.

00:17:26:23 - 00:17:28:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then and.

00:17:28:10 - 00:17:35:09
Speaker 2
Then popping the second one and everything worked out and I landed for that. And I was like, I will trust the Air Force's training for the rest of my life.

00:17:35:09 - 00:17:54:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's it's incredible to think about how they bring in people who've never even flown an airplane commercially, put them in a thing, tell them this is what you're going to do. I remember the army going, you have under four seconds to make a call, you know, and you're like, four seconds. I can't even like, do anything in four seconds.

00:17:54:10 - 00:18:00:10
Speaker 3
Like. But that training gets embedded in you. Then you just go in for a second, check out. Do you remember what else you were before you made that call?

00:18:00:13 - 00:18:02:16
Speaker 1
I was probably I want to say we.

00:18:02:16 - 00:18:04:06
Speaker 2
Jumped at 4000.

00:18:04:08 - 00:18:05:11
Speaker 3
I mean, you don't have a lot of time.

00:18:05:12 - 00:18:14:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I didn't have a lot of time. I've missed probably in the two years before it was time to act. Yeah. Right I don't know. That was that was.

00:18:14:22 - 00:18:15:23
Speaker 2
Three years in my mind.

00:18:15:23 - 00:18:19:02
Speaker 1
But it was probably about five seconds.

00:18:19:04 - 00:18:25:01
Speaker 3
But it sounds like that kind of was like the seeds of just understanding how incredible that training is, right? That muscle memory kicks in.

00:18:25:04 - 00:18:26:20
Speaker 1
That trust stayed with me all.

00:18:26:20 - 00:18:29:00
Speaker 2
The way through the Thunderbirds. All the way through.

00:18:29:00 - 00:18:30:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I don't think I've.

00:18:30:12 - 00:18:42:11
Speaker 2
Never had a period in my in my time in the military where I haven't had faith that this system that's been there for hundreds of years. Yeah.

00:18:42:13 - 00:18:45:19
Speaker 1
That they have this figured out and you know, that and you know that.

00:18:45:19 - 00:18:46:22
Speaker 2
Yes, there are there are.

00:18:46:22 - 00:18:49:13
Speaker 1
Evolutionary changes that you can make as you grow.

00:18:49:14 - 00:19:02:17
Speaker 2
Organizations forward. But and you better pay attention to the tradecraft of what's come before. Yeah. There's some pretty good lessons in history that that the institution has learned. Maybe not the individuals, but the institution has learned it. There are reasons we do, we.

00:19:02:17 - 00:19:03:04
Speaker 1
Do and.

00:19:03:04 - 00:19:24:16
Speaker 3
Keeps it locked. And yeah, that reminds me just my, we were talking about, my wife, Kelsey, who is a logistics and high aerial delivery parachute. She ran the whole parachute facility afterward. And just it's not it's just it's the institutional knowledge. And it's also the fact that, like me, we really treat the craft seriously. Yes. Anytime we do a training, jump in my recon platoon, we're going out there doing a training jump in Alaska.

00:19:24:18 - 00:19:40:12
Speaker 3
Her crew is down there filming the whole thing, and then afterwards they watch film and go, how did every parachute exit out? Oh, that one was weird. That didn't open in like a full balloon. Like we had thought that Static Land took a little longer to go deploy, and then they go back and they refine. Yes. That's constant.

00:19:40:12 - 00:19:51:15
Speaker 3
It's just something in the private sector you don't see a lot of film watching to make sure it's just done with like already doing it. Well, since the days of World War two dumping into D-Day, what else do we need to learn now? They're still out there learning.

00:19:51:20 - 00:19:53:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, you nailed it.

00:19:53:05 - 00:19:57:10
Speaker 2
Debrief. Right. It's so important to our culture.

00:19:57:14 - 00:20:01:05
Speaker 1
And so, just inherent in it, this this.

00:20:01:05 - 00:20:05:21
Speaker 2
Concept of debrief, like, yeah, the events over. That's not where the learning happens, though.

00:20:05:23 - 00:20:06:06
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:20:06:06 - 00:20:08:08
Speaker 2
The learning happens when you pull it apart on.

00:20:08:08 - 00:20:11:00
Speaker 1
Tape and and you think about.

00:20:11:00 - 00:20:13:20
Speaker 2
Those lessons and you visualize what you're going to do next time to.

00:20:13:20 - 00:20:16:12
Speaker 1
Fix that. And when you do that over and.

00:20:16:12 - 00:20:17:02
Speaker 2
Over, it.

00:20:17:02 - 00:20:25:06
Speaker 1
Just sinks into who you are. Yeah, I debrief my kids after school year after baseball. They hate it, but they're they're learning. It's important. Yeah, yeah.

00:20:25:08 - 00:20:26:21
Speaker 3
They'll understand why one day man.

00:20:26:21 - 00:20:28:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly.

00:20:28:06 - 00:20:30:08
Speaker 3
So you ran in the Texans T-38, right?

00:20:30:09 - 00:20:31:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, T-38 and.

00:20:31:08 - 00:20:39:20
Speaker 3
Then like maybe before we kind of go into that progression there. I'm curious, how do you jump in an aircraft when you're starting flight school or is it academics for a long it's.

00:20:39:20 - 00:20:43:04
Speaker 2
Academics for about a month. And then a lot of simulators.

00:20:43:04 - 00:20:43:13
Speaker 3
Okay.

00:20:43:14 - 00:21:00:16
Speaker 2
And then then you jump in an aircraft and I'm going to peg it at about about two months after showing up. It's not that long because some of that's in processing and just, you know, figuring out how to live on your own. And then then you're in an airplane, yeah. I think my first solo flight was.

00:21:00:18 - 00:21:01:08
Speaker 1
Not too.

00:21:01:08 - 00:21:02:06
Speaker 2
Far after that.

00:21:02:06 - 00:21:02:20
Speaker 1
They, they.

00:21:02:20 - 00:21:03:20
Speaker 2
Get after that very.

00:21:03:20 - 00:21:05:10
Speaker 1
Quickly. So let you.

00:21:05:10 - 00:21:14:01
Speaker 2
Fly with an instructor for a couple of rides. And actually all the fighter courses I've been in, in hindsight have the same philosophy of like, the faster I can get out of your back.

00:21:14:01 - 00:21:16:13
Speaker 1
Seat and give you that confidence.

00:21:16:16 - 00:21:17:19
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:21:17:21 - 00:21:23:21
Speaker 1
To what I would call like, disaggregate those feedback loops because when you, when you're.

00:21:23:21 - 00:21:32:15
Speaker 2
Flying, it's like anything. But when you're flying with someone else in your back seat, your mind never really figures out, hey, is that him helping me or am I doing this?

00:21:32:17 - 00:21:39:06
Speaker 1
You're right. And and so the sooner we can get that guy out of the back seat, you get this instant.

00:21:39:06 - 00:21:40:06
Speaker 2
Confidence surge.

00:21:40:06 - 00:21:41:13
Speaker 1
Of. I'm alone.

00:21:41:13 - 00:21:43:12
Speaker 2
Up here. I have to figure this out.

00:21:43:12 - 00:21:52:16
Speaker 1
And look at that I did. Yeah. And so now you're now you're like, okay, I am a pilot. Like, I may not be good, but I can fly this, this machine.

00:21:52:16 - 00:22:06:19
Speaker 3
Now, it's funny when you take the training wheels off the air, how much you like actually have to ride the thing now. Yes. Yeah. That's incredible. What? So you go out there and you're jumping in this aircraft, flying on your own for. I mean, at some point. Yeah. Do you find it the folks like you're how big is a class usually.

00:22:06:21 - 00:22:07:07
Speaker 2
30.

00:22:07:07 - 00:22:16:05
Speaker 3
Ish. Okay. How many how important is it to have a natural aptitude, you know, mechanically? Or do you find some folks could have none in the Air Force? Just that good.

00:22:16:07 - 00:22:24:09
Speaker 2
You know, we've never figured this out. And I say that because I think we're constantly trying to figure out how to find the next generation of pilots.

00:22:24:09 - 00:22:28:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, how do you do that? How do you take an ROTC class.

00:22:28:08 - 00:22:31:15
Speaker 2
Or an academy class and slimmed that down to the.

00:22:31:15 - 00:22:32:22
Speaker 1
Right couple of people.

00:22:32:22 - 00:22:35:04
Speaker 2
Who are going to make it to those pilot slots?

00:22:35:06 - 00:22:37:09
Speaker 1
It's not easy. And, you know.

00:22:37:09 - 00:22:40:01
Speaker 2
Currently we correlate it to academics, athletic.

00:22:40:01 - 00:22:41:19
Speaker 1
Ability, some of the things that you can.

00:22:41:19 - 00:22:47:11
Speaker 2
Measure. But there's I believe there's more to the human psyche than just those measurables. In.

00:22:47:11 - 00:22:52:02
Speaker 1
Fact, this is something that, that I this.

00:22:52:08 - 00:22:53:09
Speaker 2
For this is written.

00:22:53:09 - 00:22:55:11
Speaker 1
Nowhere. Okay. This is my own brain trying.

00:22:55:11 - 00:23:07:23
Speaker 2
To process this. I think there's a third type of intelligence, and I'm not sure we're tracking it. So you've got IQ that makes sense to everybody. Yeah. You know, raw intelligence. Your professor's solving problems with lots of time.

00:23:08:01 - 00:23:08:13
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:23:08:14 - 00:23:12:01
Speaker 2
IQ, emotional intelligence. And I think we all understand that that's.

00:23:12:01 - 00:23:13:15
Speaker 1
Relatively new right now.

00:23:13:17 - 00:23:14:14
Speaker 2
In our understanding.

00:23:14:14 - 00:23:17:02
Speaker 1
Of the human mind. But but IQ.

00:23:17:02 - 00:23:23:02
Speaker 2
I think we're well established on that. You know, that that empathetic ability, operational intelligence.

00:23:23:04 - 00:23:29:05
Speaker 1
I'm convinced it's a thing. I'm not sure how to measure it. I think we see it in life. I think we see.

00:23:29:05 - 00:23:30:01
Speaker 2
It in operators.

00:23:30:01 - 00:23:31:02
Speaker 1
I think we see it.

00:23:31:02 - 00:23:33:03
Speaker 2
In sports, people. Right.

00:23:33:03 - 00:23:36:02
Speaker 1
Like so you look at like the decisions span.

00:23:36:02 - 00:23:38:08
Speaker 2
That a quarterback has to make a play.

00:23:38:10 - 00:23:39:02
Speaker 1
At any given.

00:23:39:02 - 00:23:42:15
Speaker 2
Time, they're going to have 20 to 30% of the information they wish they.

00:23:42:15 - 00:23:45:16
Speaker 1
Had to make that decision, and they'd make a decision. And that.

00:23:45:16 - 00:23:46:14
Speaker 2
Decision drives the.

00:23:46:14 - 00:23:46:23
Speaker 1
Fight.

00:23:47:00 - 00:23:48:04
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:23:48:06 - 00:23:50:23
Speaker 1
That is a thing. I don't know.

00:23:50:23 - 00:23:51:23
Speaker 2
How to train it.

00:23:52:01 - 00:23:52:11
Speaker 1
I know.

00:23:52:11 - 00:23:53:20
Speaker 2
The military trains it very.

00:23:53:20 - 00:23:56:15
Speaker 1
Well. It's very hard without team.

00:23:56:15 - 00:23:59:13
Speaker 2
Sports to identify that. I think in recruits.

00:23:59:15 - 00:24:00:23
Speaker 1
You know, how do you get.

00:24:00:23 - 00:24:02:23
Speaker 2
At somebody's operational intelligence. But where I'm.

00:24:02:23 - 00:24:06:11
Speaker 1
Going with this is pilots who succeed.

00:24:06:11 - 00:24:07:23
Speaker 2
In pilot training.

00:24:08:01 - 00:24:09:11
Speaker 1
Have this combination.

00:24:09:11 - 00:24:20:08
Speaker 2
Of that triangle, in my opinion, where they've got the intellect to get through the academic part of it. They understand their aircraft intuitively. They have the emotional intelligence to understand what's going on around them.

00:24:20:10 - 00:24:22:01
Speaker 1
You know.

00:24:22:03 - 00:24:22:17
Speaker 2
You're never.

00:24:22:17 - 00:24:27:10
Speaker 1
Alone in the military. Yeah. You have you have a team at all times.

00:24:27:10 - 00:24:34:08
Speaker 2
It is critical that you understand who is their heart rate up right now? Are they breathing hard on the radio when they're talking?

00:24:34:10 - 00:24:40:02
Speaker 1
How's my wingman doing over there? But he may he may look at the jet. Looks rock solid, but yeah, he may be struggling.

00:24:40:04 - 00:24:43:07
Speaker 3
Or is he? And we're at a barbecue last night and seemed like him, his wife were off.

00:24:43:09 - 00:24:44:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly.

00:24:44:02 - 00:24:47:08
Speaker 3
You know. Exactly. Now we're going on a mission. What's going on there? Yes. Yeah.

00:24:47:08 - 00:24:54:16
Speaker 2
And then I think ultimately, the skill that you're going to take to combat with you is that operational intelligence of having, you.

00:24:54:16 - 00:24:55:03
Speaker 1
Know, you.

00:24:55:03 - 00:25:01:11
Speaker 2
Think about the air battle today. You've got 100 jets. Surface air missiles are firing all over the place. Half of them are stealth.

00:25:01:13 - 00:25:08:07
Speaker 1
You are not going to have the information you want. No matter how good our sensors get. You are going to be guessing at what the enemy just did.

00:25:08:13 - 00:25:19:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, and you're going to have to make a decision and drive the fight without perfect information. I think that is what I would define as operational intelligence in our world. Some combination of those three things makes a good pilot.

00:25:19:04 - 00:25:20:01
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:25:20:03 - 00:25:21:18
Speaker 2
Hard to find, hard to measure.

00:25:21:19 - 00:25:43:17
Speaker 3
Hard to measure. It's kind of an IT thing. Yeah. It seems similar to the way you think about like really great builders or entrepreneurs. Yes. They have the ability to fill a gap. Yeah. And to kind of almost will a bridge into an existence, you know, I've heard it also say they have a way to shine a light in the darkness where there is no light bulb available, and to them they can make it clearly in a way to will a team into going.

00:25:43:17 - 00:25:56:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, if they believe it that clearly then I guess that is. And the reality is it doesn't exist yet until those it's kind of a catch 22. It's feels like that. It feels similar to that. I've thought about that as well. Like how are it's almost that ability to bridge the non-existent.

00:25:56:13 - 00:25:57:07
Speaker 2
Absolutely.

00:25:57:07 - 00:26:03:16
Speaker 1
It's you're right. And it's other than having done it before.

00:26:03:18 - 00:26:04:07
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:26:04:09 - 00:26:05:13
Speaker 1
It's very hard to know.

00:26:05:13 - 00:26:09:16
Speaker 2
If the person that you're talking to about bringing it onto a team has that ability.

00:26:09:18 - 00:26:12:07
Speaker 3
No. Total. I mean, it's almost an in practice only. Right?

00:26:12:07 - 00:26:13:00
Speaker 1
Yes.

00:26:13:02 - 00:26:18:03
Speaker 3
Yes, it when you figure it out, each man, you probably will have your career.

00:26:18:05 - 00:26:18:23
Speaker 1
Ready to go.

00:26:18:23 - 00:26:19:13
Speaker 3
For the rest of your.

00:26:19:13 - 00:26:25:05
Speaker 1
Life. Closest I can get to it is and I'm sorry, I'm going to I'm going to.

00:26:25:05 - 00:26:27:14
Speaker 2
Dive into a flight control analogy here for a second.

00:26:27:14 - 00:26:29:06
Speaker 3
Now is the pilot episode.

00:26:29:07 - 00:26:32:07
Speaker 1
So when do you watch a.

00:26:32:07 - 00:26:36:01
Speaker 2
New pilot fly a manual aircraft? They have large.

00:26:36:01 - 00:26:44:03
Speaker 1
Inputs and long feedback loops. Yeah. So it's like I want to go left. Nothing's happening, nothing's happening, nothing's happening. Oh, no. Now I have a.

00:26:44:03 - 00:26:45:06
Speaker 2
Really high roll right to the.

00:26:45:06 - 00:26:46:22
Speaker 1
Left. I want to go right.

00:26:46:22 - 00:26:53:14
Speaker 2
And you counter that right. So very long spans, very long feedback loops.

00:26:53:15 - 00:26:56:23
Speaker 1
You get better. And what you notice is good pilots have pulsed.

00:26:56:23 - 00:27:00:23
Speaker 2
Inputs all the time. Not because they're trying to move the airplane, but because they're trying.

00:27:00:23 - 00:27:02:06
Speaker 1
To be in control.

00:27:02:06 - 00:27:04:22
Speaker 2
Of when that airplane moves there, they are creating their.

00:27:04:22 - 00:27:08:07
Speaker 1
Own feedback. It's amazing to watch your mind do this. When you.

00:27:08:09 - 00:27:10:15
Speaker 2
Give somebody an aircraft for a while, they realize that.

00:27:10:15 - 00:27:16:04
Speaker 1
This sitting still, that's actually not a fun place to be, because then other.

00:27:16:09 - 00:27:22:03
Speaker 2
Forces are driving your jet to roll pitch in your butt. But if you're constantly driving that jet.

00:27:22:05 - 00:27:25:12
Speaker 1
Then you're in control. You are in complete control. And if you watch any pilot.

00:27:25:13 - 00:27:31:09
Speaker 2
Commercial, private or military, that's really good at it, they are driving that feedback loop themselves.

00:27:31:09 - 00:27:36:07
Speaker 3
They're constantly control the world that they want to be in. Yes, that's cool man.

00:27:36:08 - 00:27:38:01
Speaker 1
You get into now highly.

00:27:38:01 - 00:27:55:07
Speaker 2
Digitized flight controls, F-16, F-35, F-16 was the first to do this, and it's just advanced since then. And now your feedback loops are like 1000Hz for basic flight controls, you know, and you're talking a thousand samples a second. Wow. That it's just constantly doing so. Even our machines are doing.

00:27:55:07 - 00:28:01:11
Speaker 1
This because that's the way you drive inputs. What you're talking about I believe.

00:28:01:16 - 00:28:07:07
Speaker 2
For for people who have that operational mindset, who can create and who can bridge and move things forward.

00:28:07:09 - 00:28:10:08
Speaker 1
I think it is. I think you're looking for people.

00:28:10:10 - 00:28:11:13
Speaker 2
Who drive their own.

00:28:11:13 - 00:28:15:01
Speaker 1
Feedback loops who are like, you know what, I've got ten.

00:28:15:01 - 00:28:16:18
Speaker 2
Different directions I could go right now.

00:28:17:00 - 00:28:17:15
Speaker 1
And I don't.

00:28:17:15 - 00:28:18:20
Speaker 2
Know which is the right one.

00:28:18:22 - 00:28:27:07
Speaker 1
And the only way I'm going to find that is by picking one, and I'm going there until I find out I can't, and then I'm going, okay, well, now I've.

00:28:27:07 - 00:28:32:20
Speaker 2
Learned from that experience. Let's drive a feedback loop slightly this direction and let's see what happens.

00:28:32:22 - 00:28:37:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that's the mentality. And it's hard.

00:28:37:13 - 00:28:51:08
Speaker 3
No I think you're right man. I think there's so much it's such a cool combo. It's such a cool aspect because I think it applies across the world just about how this thing, which seems so mystical, I think when you're looking at it. Yeah, because you can do identify it when someone has it, like they're just doing the thing.

00:28:51:10 - 00:29:09:08
Speaker 3
I agree with you. Really hard to measure. It reminds me of some training that I imagine the Air Force gets into. The Army does some things. It on its nose doesn't feel applicable at all. Yeah. And I think I went back and kind of talk. Ranger training is one, for example, that when I went to we were doing stuff in that first week that I wasn't really sure I was just hazing.

00:29:09:08 - 00:29:28:14
Speaker 3
Like, I don't know what this was for, as I've had Ranger instructors and friends go back and go become kind of the other side of that coin and facilitate the training. It's interesting to hear their feedback about courage. Yeah. So which I think plays into what you're talking about. And it's not only just you know, courage to speak up and stuff, but it's this courage to pick.

00:29:28:16 - 00:29:41:21
Speaker 3
And I remember many a times even there's this long being make it climb. And you kind of have to go across this long being over a pond. Really the worst thing that happens, you fall off, maybe hit yourself on the way down, you fall. In this point, you got to do it again. And I remember them. You go and they had this weird staircase in the middle of it.

00:29:41:21 - 00:29:59:02
Speaker 3
Again. It was like, is this hazing or what is this for? And you're doing this literally on day two or day three. It's like, how like, this is not what I thought Ranger training was going to be about walking over this little obstacle course thing. And I remember they make you do it over again until you did it as if you were walking down the street and nothing that they wanted to just see.

00:29:59:02 - 00:30:11:21
Speaker 3
Are you able to do a thing? Not just do a thing, but do a thing a certain way? Yeah. I don't know if that resonates in all of you, but that component of courage is something I think the service teaches well, or at least measures or at least assesses for.

00:30:11:21 - 00:30:13:22
Speaker 1
It does I mean, you know, combat.

00:30:13:22 - 00:30:15:03
Speaker 2
Is going to force that.

00:30:15:05 - 00:30:19:02
Speaker 1
Because the enemy gets a vote. And I love that idea.

00:30:19:02 - 00:30:19:20
Speaker 2
Of the courage to.

00:30:19:20 - 00:30:23:05
Speaker 1
Pick combined with the.

00:30:23:07 - 00:30:26:21
Speaker 2
The wrote basic skill set to just react.

00:30:26:23 - 00:30:27:07
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:30:27:12 - 00:30:34:18
Speaker 2
Because you don't know what you're going to get driven to or what you're going to drive towards. But when you're there, you can't be thinking about putting one foot in front of the other.

00:30:34:20 - 00:30:35:05
Speaker 3
You know.

00:30:35:05 - 00:30:40:06
Speaker 2
The basics have to be absolutely lot. Yeah.

00:30:40:08 - 00:30:53:05
Speaker 3
It's locked in. It's also, I mean, as a, as an officer and as somebody who's leading as a leader, not only just as a leader, but some of the the military says you're a leader for the rest of your life, like, whether you like it or not. It's also being able will the team behind you to follow.

00:30:53:05 - 00:30:59:00
Speaker 3
That's probably even trickier. Yes. You're like, I know where to go. I can will it, but it's like, where's the other people behind this notion?

00:30:59:00 - 00:31:00:05
Speaker 1
Do you get to do the thing?

00:31:00:07 - 00:31:16:04
Speaker 3
So I think that's part of it. Yeah. Speaking of willing, I'm curious. Like, so you get you get through flat training. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about there's two things on my mind. One is pick the aircraft either picking or getting assigned. Okay. So I'm curious what happens there. Yeah. And then you got to tell me about call signs because I think that's an interesting world.

00:31:16:04 - 00:31:32:05
Speaker 3
Even as an army did we know that we have call signs, but our call signs actually belong to the organization? Yeah. Like I don't pick my call sign. You know, whether it was Red Chaos or Apache, all the call signs I've had actually belong to the seat. That's to me. I don't carry it with me when I leave it, but it stays with the seat.

00:31:32:07 - 00:31:41:18
Speaker 3
Or is y'all do so whatever you want to pick first, how jet goes or how the hell it goes. But it's kind of the I love the pageantry and the fun of all of it. So yeah, you can give us an inside look.

00:31:41:18 - 00:31:42:20
Speaker 1
It's good. The call sign.

00:31:42:20 - 00:31:46:22
Speaker 2
Was really good. I'm going to I'll start with the jet one. I think that's actually a little bit simpler.

00:31:47:00 - 00:31:48:18
Speaker 1
In ways, you know, you as you.

00:31:48:18 - 00:31:56:23
Speaker 2
Go through pilot training, you start to learn who you are as well. And, and certainly I think a lot of us arrive on day one and go, I want to be a fighter pilot.

00:31:57:01 - 00:32:00:22
Speaker 1
Of course, that's the son of TV. So that's obviously what I'm going to do.

00:32:01:01 - 00:32:04:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. Thank you, Tom cruise. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

00:32:04:14 - 00:32:06:22
Speaker 2
You know, the reality is.

00:32:07:00 - 00:32:08:03
Speaker 1
There you.

00:32:08:03 - 00:32:16:10
Speaker 2
Discover different skill sets within yourself as you go through pilot training. And some people are really good at instruments and really good at.

00:32:16:12 - 00:32:17:02
Speaker 1
At keeping.

00:32:17:02 - 00:32:17:13
Speaker 2
An aircraft.

00:32:17:13 - 00:32:21:06
Speaker 1
Stable and maybe not so good at formation flying.

00:32:21:08 - 00:32:24:07
Speaker 2
And others are just like, yeah, formation, scariest thing imaginable.

00:32:24:07 - 00:32:27:02
Speaker 1
But you know what I like this. This is fun.

00:32:27:04 - 00:32:30:09
Speaker 2
And I like the acrobatics. And so you start to kind of pick a path.

00:32:30:09 - 00:32:31:03
Speaker 1
And about halfway.

00:32:31:03 - 00:32:31:23
Speaker 2
Through pilot training.

00:32:32:03 - 00:32:32:23
Speaker 1
You select.

00:32:32:23 - 00:32:35:13
Speaker 2
Either t 30 eights or.

00:32:35:14 - 00:32:36:07
Speaker 1
T ones at.

00:32:36:07 - 00:32:39:18
Speaker 2
The time, which is a big airplane. So that's going to lead you towards C-17.

00:32:39:18 - 00:32:41:19
Speaker 1
C-5, your cargo KC ten right.

00:32:41:19 - 00:32:47:01
Speaker 2
Cargo tanker, Awacs. Really great jobs there. It's very different.

00:32:47:03 - 00:32:48:13
Speaker 1
So we it.

00:32:48:13 - 00:32:56:07
Speaker 2
Was true for me. I went to 30 eights, which meant I was going to go fighters or bombers. And then when you down select from there you have this.

00:32:56:07 - 00:32:56:23
Speaker 1
Big knight.

00:32:56:23 - 00:33:00:20
Speaker 2
Called Drop Knight where all of your performance comes together.

00:33:00:22 - 00:33:03:20
Speaker 1
And you are, you are given.

00:33:03:20 - 00:33:04:23
Speaker 2
An aircraft.

00:33:05:01 - 00:33:08:04
Speaker 1
And you know, you've put in what's called a dream sheet. Okay.

00:33:08:04 - 00:33:08:21
Speaker 3
I was like, do you get to.

00:33:08:22 - 00:33:13:17
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. You act like you're going to pick what you want. You know, you're surrounded by you. Pilot training has has.

00:33:13:17 - 00:33:15:00
Speaker 2
All the different aircraft types in it.

00:33:15:00 - 00:33:15:21
Speaker 1
Because you have.

00:33:15:21 - 00:33:19:09
Speaker 2
Instructors that come back from, from their world in the Air Force to.

00:33:19:09 - 00:33:21:12
Speaker 1
Teach those 20 to.

00:33:21:12 - 00:33:22:12
Speaker 2
24 year olds.

00:33:22:12 - 00:33:24:04
Speaker 1
How to fly. And so you get.

00:33:24:04 - 00:33:26:19
Speaker 2
Stories about all the different jets and.

00:33:26:19 - 00:33:27:14
Speaker 1
Every one of them.

00:33:27:14 - 00:33:30:22
Speaker 2
This is what I noticed right away. Every one of them thinks their jet is the best thing for.

00:33:30:23 - 00:33:32:01
Speaker 3
All, of course.

00:33:32:03 - 00:33:43:07
Speaker 1
Which is good, right? Which is a good thing. You know, it's like, and so, so, you know, that whatever path you pick, it's going to be your path and, and it's going to be great, but you still you.

00:33:43:07 - 00:33:47:12
Speaker 2
Still have those childhood dreams stacking up those, you know, which instructor was more influential.

00:33:47:12 - 00:33:48:19
Speaker 2
So I wanted to fly the strike.

00:33:48:19 - 00:33:52:07
Speaker 1
Eagle like I wanted the one that did it all. Yeah, yeah. To me.

00:33:52:07 - 00:33:53:18
Speaker 3
Why what is the thinking behind.

00:33:53:18 - 00:33:54:18
Speaker 1
It? It is just other.

00:33:54:18 - 00:33:56:02
Speaker 3
Than it's iconic, man.

00:33:56:04 - 00:33:57:03
Speaker 1
Big two engine.

00:33:57:03 - 00:34:06:06
Speaker 2
Fighter, very fast. Mach 2.5 carries a ton of air to air weapons and a ton of air to ground weapons at the same time, it really was. It's just like the.

00:34:06:09 - 00:34:10:07
Speaker 1
In fact, the callsign for the jet in fighter Weapon school for.

00:34:10:07 - 00:34:15:11
Speaker 2
The 15 is Hoss. And that's a is a very appropriate. Yeah man name for that aircraft.

00:34:15:11 - 00:34:16:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's just in.

00:34:16:10 - 00:34:25:13
Speaker 3
Theater. We always love when when did feel like when it, you know, 15 because I was like, we basically got a birthday boys to pay for him on that jet man. Like you can. Yeah. You can take whatever you want.

00:34:25:14 - 00:34:34:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. That F-15 philosophy is very offensive. It's, you know, stealth was starting to happen back then, but it wasn't well established.

00:34:35:02 - 00:34:35:15
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:34:35:17 - 00:34:37:08
Speaker 1
But I mean, at the time, even.

00:34:37:08 - 00:34:43:13
Speaker 2
After stealth was, well established as a fighter technology, the 15 years philosophy has just been.

00:34:43:14 - 00:34:47:09
Speaker 1
I don't care if you see me because I'm armed to the teeth and,

00:34:47:11 - 00:34:47:16
Speaker 3
Good.

00:34:47:16 - 00:34:49:11
Speaker 1
Luck. Let's go, let's go. Yeah.

00:34:49:11 - 00:34:51:05
Speaker 2
So it is a greater point.

00:34:51:05 - 00:34:51:17
Speaker 1
I love I.

00:34:51:17 - 00:34:52:21
Speaker 2
Loved everything about.

00:34:52:21 - 00:34:55:08
Speaker 1
It. I love the way it looked. I love the mission, the fact.

00:34:55:08 - 00:35:02:07
Speaker 2
That it was involved in not just air to air combat, but also there to surface missions. You know, from close air support of you guys.

00:35:02:09 - 00:35:02:22
Speaker 1
To deep.

00:35:02:22 - 00:35:07:06
Speaker 2
Strike and interdiction to, you know, everything. You can imagine a fighter jet doing it.

00:35:07:12 - 00:35:08:02
Speaker 1
Did it?

00:35:08:04 - 00:35:21:22
Speaker 3
It's historic for those. If you can't see it, it's this silhouette here with the call sign, but so sound like you got the aircraft I got. Was there any kind of tense? Like, if you don't know what you're going to get, right, there's no even probably clues ahead of time what that looks like.

00:35:21:23 - 00:35:30:12
Speaker 1
The clues are just meant to be mean. So they'll they'll do things like, you know, there are 26 engines in this drop.

00:35:30:14 - 00:35:31:18
Speaker 2
And so then everyone's like.

00:35:31:18 - 00:35:44:20
Speaker 1
All right, well, if it's one B-52, that's eight. So, you know, like it's just like literally you're like, so you're like, well, it could be three F-15s and, you know, 11 F-16s and, you know, one, because this.

00:35:44:21 - 00:35:48:18
Speaker 3
At an event, not every every class gets a whole different spread because it needs the Air Force.

00:35:48:18 - 00:35:49:09
Speaker 1
That's exactly.

00:35:49:09 - 00:35:51:11
Speaker 2
Right. In fact, their entire class is in history.

00:35:51:11 - 00:35:56:02
Speaker 1
Where everyone got heavies. Wow. Everyone, you know, they didn't allocate a single.

00:35:56:02 - 00:35:57:15
Speaker 2
Fighter sometimes, so.

00:35:57:17 - 00:35:59:13
Speaker 1
You just don't know.

00:35:59:15 - 00:36:02:10
Speaker 2
And, so I was very, very happy that night.

00:36:02:12 - 00:36:02:22
Speaker 3
Wow.

00:36:02:22 - 00:36:04:03
Speaker 1
I got this right. You let me give it.

00:36:04:03 - 00:36:06:08
Speaker 3
You go up there and they would, like, announce in front of everyone.

00:36:06:08 - 00:36:07:02
Speaker 1
Behind you on a.

00:36:07:03 - 00:36:08:00
Speaker 3
Screen, okay?

00:36:08:00 - 00:36:13:03
Speaker 1
You're like you're looking at the audience and and they, Yeah, they, they, they.

00:36:13:03 - 00:36:14:09
Speaker 2
Pop the screen up behind.

00:36:14:09 - 00:36:19:12
Speaker 1
You and you, you got in. First thing you see is everyone's faces. I bet you there's some.

00:36:19:12 - 00:36:20:02
Speaker 3
Faces like.

00:36:20:02 - 00:36:35:01
Speaker 1
Oh, crap. Yeah, yeah, well, you got these mixed emotions because if there's someone else out there who wanted that too, and then it's behind this, they're like, oh, the Jets just went way down. Because, you know, there's not a lot of multiple drops. There it is.

00:36:35:03 - 00:36:36:14
Speaker 2
You don't see the same aircraft.

00:36:36:16 - 00:36:43:06
Speaker 3
How many fifteens came out in that class? Just one. Oh holy smokes. Yeah. In many fighters. What was the split do you remember. Yeah.

00:36:43:08 - 00:36:44:12
Speaker 1
Let me see. We had I think.

00:36:44:12 - 00:36:44:22
Speaker 2
We had three.

00:36:44:22 - 00:36:52:00
Speaker 1
F-16s that came out of it, one F-15. And then, a B-1. Okay.

00:36:52:02 - 00:36:53:01
Speaker 2
That's a really cool plane.

00:36:53:01 - 00:36:57:03
Speaker 3
Really cool plane. A little love here. And call sign bone. Yes, yes. Theater.

00:36:57:03 - 00:37:00:17
Speaker 2
Big sweat wing, supersonic bomber. So that one's cool. And then,

00:37:00:19 - 00:37:05:22
Speaker 1
And then and then we I actually quite a few that came back immediately as instructors.

00:37:06:00 - 00:37:08:23
Speaker 3
Oh, interesting. We can do that right away. Okay.

00:37:09:01 - 00:37:11:03
Speaker 2
It's called a first and Simon instructor pilot.

00:37:11:05 - 00:37:13:17
Speaker 1
And it's it's those guys did very.

00:37:13:17 - 00:37:16:14
Speaker 2
Well in the class. So it's not a punishment. It's quite the opposite.

00:37:16:14 - 00:37:18:12
Speaker 1
It's like, hey you are good.

00:37:18:14 - 00:37:24:06
Speaker 2
You're going to be a great instructor. We've got a chance for you to actually continue right here.

00:37:24:08 - 00:37:24:17
Speaker 1
On.

00:37:24:17 - 00:37:27:17
Speaker 2
On site. But now as an instructor of that thing you just came out of.

00:37:27:19 - 00:37:28:03
Speaker 3
Wow.

00:37:28:03 - 00:37:28:11
Speaker 1
Interesting.

00:37:28:11 - 00:37:30:17
Speaker 2
And you'll get your drop later, okay. Two years later.

00:37:30:19 - 00:37:32:17
Speaker 3
For a long that stress. Yeah.

00:37:32:17 - 00:37:33:15
Speaker 1
That is the downside.

00:37:33:18 - 00:37:46:23
Speaker 3
Yeah. Do you have it maybe before moving a couple times I'm curious. Do you have is there a personality type that usually fits the jet. Like, you know, when you see someone in the 15 you're like they're probably like this versus somebody who's flying something else.

00:37:46:23 - 00:38:00:11
Speaker 1
There are absolutely. Absolutely rumors of that being true. I'm not going to say it isn't true. I think there's and even between.

00:38:00:14 - 00:38:01:11
Speaker 2
There are different types of.

00:38:01:11 - 00:38:05:17
Speaker 1
F-15. Yeah. The F-15, C is an air to air only light.

00:38:05:17 - 00:38:07:14
Speaker 2
Gray version of the F-15.

00:38:07:14 - 00:38:10:12
Speaker 1
And they spend every minute.

00:38:10:12 - 00:38:18:00
Speaker 2
Of every day learning how to kill other airplanes. And they are very good at it. So that is that is a certain mentality.

00:38:18:00 - 00:38:21:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then the strike eagle is much more

00:38:21:04 - 00:38:21:11
Speaker 2
I don't know.

00:38:21:11 - 00:38:22:20
Speaker 1
Interestingly, it's.

00:38:22:21 - 00:38:24:02
Speaker 2
It's they're pretty.

00:38:24:02 - 00:38:26:09
Speaker 1
Cerebral, I find. I mean, it's because they're.

00:38:26:10 - 00:38:27:11
Speaker 2
They're trying to master multiple.

00:38:27:11 - 00:38:28:08
Speaker 1
Mission sets and.

00:38:28:08 - 00:38:29:09
Speaker 2
Yeah,

00:38:29:11 - 00:38:33:23
Speaker 1
You also have that crew component. The F-15 is unique like that. You do have the.

00:38:33:23 - 00:38:39:04
Speaker 2
Back seat or in the 15, the weapon system or the Wiseau. Yeah, and they're amazing.

00:38:39:05 - 00:38:40:23
Speaker 1
And so, you know, you are.

00:38:41:00 - 00:38:48:07
Speaker 2
You are working in a crew concept in a striker. You're which you are not in an F-15. See? Same thing in an F-16 single seat. Yeah. So they're so.

00:38:48:07 - 00:38:48:20
Speaker 3
Fascinating.

00:38:48:20 - 00:38:51:00
Speaker 2
Absolutely personalities that come with those.

00:38:51:02 - 00:38:54:17
Speaker 1
And then of course, the culture perpetuates that. Oh because.

00:38:54:19 - 00:39:13:15
Speaker 3
Of that. Yeah. Who is the most surfer chill type of pilot you know. Oh like have you met him somewhere you might go? They kind of sound like a little bit of a hippie to me. Like they're just. Or like they go, like, surfing down in California. Like real relaxed. Because as an Army guy, we almost think pilots are always intense.

00:39:13:17 - 00:39:23:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. I, you know, it's work hard. Play hard concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is very much alive in all of the fighter attack communities. Yeah.

00:39:24:10 - 00:39:31:04
Speaker 1
Who would the most she'll be. That's tough, a sub, it might be the Strike Eagles. Oh, really? It might be the strength. I mean, you sure?

00:39:31:07 - 00:39:37:10
Speaker 3
I mean, you sure? I like, you know, a lot, but also you just also are very approachable, easygoing. You know those guys.

00:39:37:10 - 00:39:44:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think the crew the crew concept brings that to life and they get along, you know, you have to get along. You literally have to. You'd be sitting ten.

00:39:44:11 - 00:39:44:21
Speaker 2
Hours in.

00:39:44:21 - 00:39:50:10
Speaker 1
A single, you know, you're you can't go to the bathroom. You're sitting in that jet with that one.

00:39:50:10 - 00:39:50:23
Speaker 2
Other person.

00:39:50:23 - 00:39:53:16
Speaker 1
Behind you. You got to learn how to talk to people.

00:39:53:20 - 00:40:00:02
Speaker 3
Yeah. Now talk to you about your call center. Like specifically how you got Astro, but how anybody gets your call. Yeah. Air force.

00:40:00:05 - 00:40:01:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Let's talk about the.

00:40:01:12 - 00:40:21:17
Speaker 2
Why behind it first. Because I think that's actually really interesting. So why do we have these call centers? A lot of it is the debrief okay. We have a really important concept in in air combat operations really fighter aviation. And I would imagine it propagates through most of the Air Force. You have no rank in a debrief. I don't care if you are the full bird, Colonel.

00:40:21:17 - 00:40:23:16
Speaker 2
Wing commander.

00:40:23:18 - 00:40:24:23
Speaker 1
If you messed up.

00:40:25:01 - 00:40:27:09
Speaker 2
You're going to get debriefed on it harshly.

00:40:27:11 - 00:40:31:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so we have this this almost.

00:40:31:21 - 00:40:33:16
Speaker 2
Separation of church and state.

00:40:33:16 - 00:40:37:03
Speaker 1
That goes on right where you you walk out of the debrief.

00:40:37:03 - 00:40:37:18
Speaker 2
Room.

00:40:37:20 - 00:40:38:10
Speaker 1
And you are the.

00:40:38:10 - 00:40:46:20
Speaker 2
Wing commander of the base, and it's respected salutes and. Yes, sir. And you call you call them by their, by their rank and last name, and that respect is there.

00:40:46:22 - 00:40:55:12
Speaker 1
But you and you, when it's flying time, you are number two. And if number one has some things that they need to say to you.

00:40:55:13 - 00:40:56:13
Speaker 2
They're going to say that.

00:40:56:13 - 00:40:58:00
Speaker 1
And so we, we try to.

00:40:58:02 - 00:40:59:16
Speaker 2
Kind of bring everyone to the same level.

00:40:59:16 - 00:41:00:04
Speaker 1
And I think.

00:41:00:04 - 00:41:03:17
Speaker 2
That's where the call signs really seeped into our culture and became just a.

00:41:03:17 - 00:41:08:12
Speaker 1
Thing. And to answer your question, we we do also have.

00:41:08:12 - 00:41:11:22
Speaker 2
Call signs associated with aircraft types and formations.

00:41:12:00 - 00:41:15:05
Speaker 1
Thing really. So when you, you know, when you you talk about Afghanistan.

00:41:15:05 - 00:41:15:13
Speaker 2
You know, we.

00:41:15:13 - 00:41:17:04
Speaker 1
Were dude, we were always dude.

00:41:17:04 - 00:41:20:10
Speaker 2
And a number that was the that meant strike Eagles were overhead.

00:41:20:13 - 00:41:21:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:41:21:15 - 00:41:22:22
Speaker 2
Vipers were Viper.

00:41:23:00 - 00:41:28:15
Speaker 1
So we you know, we have that jet call sign, but we are also individually known.

00:41:28:15 - 00:41:30:21
Speaker 2
By our, what we actually call our name.

00:41:30:23 - 00:41:31:13
Speaker 1
Which is.

00:41:31:13 - 00:41:32:04
Speaker 3
Oh that's your name.

00:41:32:04 - 00:41:34:11
Speaker 1
It's our it's our you get your name in a.

00:41:34:11 - 00:41:35:14
Speaker 2
Naming ceremony.

00:41:35:19 - 00:41:36:13
Speaker 3
At flight school.

00:41:36:13 - 00:41:38:18
Speaker 1
Or. No, it is much later.

00:41:38:18 - 00:41:40:04
Speaker 2
You have to mess up first.

00:41:40:07 - 00:41:44:11
Speaker 1
So once you are established and mission qualified.

00:41:44:16 - 00:41:55:03
Speaker 2
In your fighter. So not just initial training, which is another nine months in the F-15, for example. Then you go to your first fighter squadron. For me, it was the one on your coffee mug, the Chiefs three 35th.

00:41:55:05 - 00:41:58:10
Speaker 1
Very cool. And those are the guys that name you.

00:41:58:12 - 00:41:59:12
Speaker 2
After your mission.

00:41:59:12 - 00:42:06:16
Speaker 1
Qualified. So once you're fully qualified in the jet, then you've had plenty of opportunities.

00:42:06:16 - 00:42:08:01
Speaker 2
Over about a year.

00:42:08:03 - 00:42:10:22
Speaker 1
To mess things up. And then you had this.

00:42:10:22 - 00:42:16:07
Speaker 2
Naming ceremony where your entire squadron surrounds you and they make you play some games.

00:42:16:09 - 00:42:35:15
Speaker 1
And they put some names on a board, most of which are fake. And then they ask you your opinion and you don't have one. Just to be very clear, like you should not have an opinion about the name. And if you do have an opinion, you're going to get booed heavily. Yeah. And then you'll be provided some opportunities to remove names, with beverages.

00:42:35:17 - 00:42:36:13
Speaker 1
But it's one.

00:42:36:13 - 00:42:37:09
Speaker 2
Versus the rest.

00:42:37:09 - 00:42:53:10
Speaker 1
Of the squadron. And so you can trick one off, but anyone else can drink it back on that. So remember there are a lot of fake ones out there that you really don't want. So, so at the end of all of this, they sing a song and give you and give.

00:42:53:10 - 00:42:54:07
Speaker 2
You your name, your.

00:42:54:07 - 00:42:57:05
Speaker 1
Callsign, and it stays with you.

00:42:57:06 - 00:42:59:13
Speaker 2
With very few exceptions for the rest of your life.

00:42:59:15 - 00:43:07:00
Speaker 1
Wow. So we do have a couple of rules, like you, you need to fly it in combat, okay? To make it stick.

00:43:07:04 - 00:43:08:02
Speaker 3
Yes.

00:43:08:04 - 00:43:09:00
Speaker 1
And then once, once.

00:43:09:00 - 00:43:10:13
Speaker 2
You've done that, that's your name?

00:43:10:15 - 00:43:27:18
Speaker 3
Matt. So when you get, What? Maybe it's just kind of my small view of it. I've noticed most of the y'all's Air Force call signs are, I know there's a story behind it. Yeah, but it also just seems like something you could carry without a whole lot of despair. Yeah. Are there some out there that are just like.

00:43:27:18 - 00:43:29:01
Speaker 3
Man, that is not good. Yeah.

00:43:29:07 - 00:43:32:02
Speaker 1
So,

00:43:32:04 - 00:43:34:23
Speaker 2
The Air Force has, an unwritten rule.

00:43:35:01 - 00:43:35:09
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:43:35:12 - 00:43:40:15
Speaker 2
And when I say Air Force, I mean the community, the culture. Yeah. The Air Force, culture has an unwritten rule that.

00:43:40:15 - 00:43:43:14
Speaker 1
It has to sound cool. You have to you have to be able to shout that.

00:43:43:14 - 00:43:45:04
Speaker 2
Callsign across the Nellis bar.

00:43:45:06 - 00:43:48:12
Speaker 1
Nellis is like Mecca. It's where Red flag weapons, school.

00:43:48:12 - 00:43:49:17
Speaker 2
Thunderbirds, all that's in one.

00:43:49:17 - 00:43:52:03
Speaker 1
Place. So you have to be able to shout it across.

00:43:52:03 - 00:43:53:00
Speaker 2
The Nellis bar.

00:43:53:00 - 00:44:01:21
Speaker 1
And it sound cool. Okay, but it's never about anything. But it ain't never. Yeah, there's a river. Of note, when we talk about cultures, the Navy has.

00:44:01:21 - 00:44:02:07
Speaker 2
No such.

00:44:02:07 - 00:44:11:03
Speaker 3
Rule. No, this is what I'm wondering. I did I've seen something like Dumbo or something crazy for the Air Force. I feel like there's got to be someone reading class behind that.

00:44:11:03 - 00:44:15:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we try to make it an acronym if we have to.

00:44:17:04 - 00:44:20:12
Speaker 1
Anything that we can do to bring duality, you know?

00:44:20:14 - 00:44:28:23
Speaker 3
You know, I try and I appreciate the more reason to become an Air Force aviator probably than Navy. What the. Can you give this version of how you got it? Yeah. How you get it?

00:44:29:02 - 00:44:30:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's not flattering.

00:44:30:03 - 00:44:30:21
Speaker 2
But my first.

00:44:30:21 - 00:44:33:17
Speaker 1
Time taking off at night and F-15,

00:44:33:19 - 00:44:41:02
Speaker 2
At a Seymour in North Carolina, and I dropped my night vision goggles. I was number four and a faucet. So now, for those.

00:44:41:02 - 00:44:42:15
Speaker 1
Who haven't seen the F-15 at night.

00:44:42:15 - 00:44:48:21
Speaker 2
The afterburners are as long as the aircraft. There's a monster plume of fire coming out of this airplane.

00:44:48:23 - 00:44:55:02
Speaker 1
So you take off at night. I'm the fourth jet to take off. Drop my night vision goggles down. I'm like, oh.

00:44:55:03 - 00:44:57:00
Speaker 2
Stars, planets.

00:44:57:01 - 00:44:58:14
Speaker 1
You've seen it, you know, it's like. Yeah.

00:44:58:14 - 00:45:00:07
Speaker 2
And it turns out airplanes all.

00:45:00:07 - 00:45:03:04
Speaker 1
Look exactly the same. And so my number one, two.

00:45:03:04 - 00:45:05:02
Speaker 2
And three head turned left like they were.

00:45:05:02 - 00:45:06:06
Speaker 1
Supposed to, to go out over.

00:45:06:06 - 00:45:07:06
Speaker 2
The water airspace.

00:45:07:06 - 00:45:12:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, man. And I did not see that turn, so I dropped my goggles on. I'm like, oh, God.

00:45:12:08 - 00:45:13:18
Speaker 2
Everything's the same.

00:45:13:20 - 00:45:16:09
Speaker 1
So I picked my flight lead. The sky.

00:45:16:09 - 00:45:18:15
Speaker 2
And started flying to. That was a star.

00:45:18:17 - 00:45:22:12
Speaker 1
And, just, you know, you got any picture of this F-15 in full.

00:45:22:12 - 00:45:26:11
Speaker 2
Afterburner, like, screaming through Washington airspace?

00:45:26:11 - 00:45:32:13
Speaker 1
Like trying to, you know, try to rejoin on a star that I wasn't gonna get there. So.

00:45:32:15 - 00:45:33:18
Speaker 3
Trying to get to the astronaut program.

00:45:33:19 - 00:45:37:07
Speaker 1
That's right, that's right. Yeah. So I failed. So, 70.

00:45:37:07 - 00:45:38:14
Speaker 2
Miles later, I realized my.

00:45:38:14 - 00:45:40:18
Speaker 1
Mistake and was named Astro.

00:45:40:20 - 00:45:43:08
Speaker 3
It's still a bad ass callsign, and.

00:45:43:08 - 00:45:43:18
Speaker 1
It's a good one.

00:45:43:19 - 00:45:48:05
Speaker 3
I think most people kind of like going, oh, that makes sense. If you're going to become an astronaut, are there? Yeah. Those are they know.

00:45:48:10 - 00:45:58:13
Speaker 1
That Houston, Texas acknowledging that would be most likely to make sure you don't get that call sign. You know what I mean. Like they're they're never going to be like oh that's your. Oh good. Well do you want to be cool.

00:45:58:16 - 00:46:21:08
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. That's coming off the board. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I mean, I know that I, I think it's a unique part of the culture. We were catching up earlier about the things we just said. Kindred spirits about some of the things about y'all's culture that we just froze. An Army guy just absolutely appreciate, man, is is that, camaraderie you have just with those things that permeate time?

00:46:21:08 - 00:46:32:08
Speaker 3
Like, it's not this one thing. I think in the Army, we don't really we have our combat patches. We were forever, if you're lucky enough to go, and that stays with you forever. But not a call sign. And that's cool, man.

00:46:32:10 - 00:46:33:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's.

00:46:33:03 - 00:46:35:18
Speaker 2
It really is your name, like like your your friends.

00:46:35:18 - 00:46:39:22
Speaker 1
Spouses, they call me Astro and everybody calls me Justin. Like, not.

00:46:39:23 - 00:46:46:01
Speaker 2
My parents do still sort of, it's my name. It's super weird, right?

00:46:46:01 - 00:46:47:20
Speaker 1
Like super cool. Just takes over.

00:46:48:00 - 00:47:11:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. Oh. Love that. Okay, so let's let's switch gears over to, Tamworth Thunderbirds. So you're kind of moving over there, but let me actually I'm going to take a quick pause. I'll actually one story we're catching up on. I think it's just a unique opportunity and we'll just take it for what it's worth. We were kind of had some at least some really quick overlap in theater together, which is really interesting.

00:47:11:07 - 00:47:34:14
Speaker 3
Probably will never happen again in podcast. I doubt, I doubt, I mean, especially from two different services. You spent some time out in Afghanistan, specifically involved in this in the cab Keating thing, and just to kind of paint the picture for folks that part of Afghanistan, highly mountainous, unforgiving, let alone climbing it. You can't even get radio waves through it to be able to communicate well with each other.

00:47:34:15 - 00:47:54:05
Speaker 3
And when we were ramping up in Alaska to Governor Wilderness, the other outpost, we had heard a lot and learned a lot in real time about Keating and just kind of what went down there. Yeah. If you don't mind just sharing a little bit about kind of what from your perspective was going on in Keating. And, I mean, you weren't just like, oh, I heard of it, or I was at the airbase.

00:47:54:05 - 00:47:58:18
Speaker 3
You were literally in that major attack. Yeah. Please tell me about it and tell the folks about it.

00:47:58:21 - 00:48:00:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. It,

00:48:00:22 - 00:48:08:01
Speaker 2
You know, first you can read about this battle in a book called Red platoon. There's a movie about it.

00:48:08:04 - 00:48:09:17
Speaker 1
There's this was a.

00:48:09:17 - 00:48:12:03
Speaker 2
This was a big battle. And I'm not surprised that.

00:48:12:03 - 00:48:12:15
Speaker 1
Even it.

00:48:12:17 - 00:48:35:14
Speaker 2
Right afterwards, it was being taught in, in your world, out of necessity. Yeah. I don't think anyone intended to do anything wrong out there. The the outpost was made at the valley base of three giant mountains. Pretty much the worst tactical situation you can imagine from a defensive position. Everyone has the high ground around you except you.

00:48:35:20 - 00:48:38:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, smack in the middle with really no exit.

00:48:38:23 - 00:48:45:00
Speaker 1
And it was meant to do. It was meant to draw the Taliban back out.

00:48:45:00 - 00:48:50:05
Speaker 2
Of Pakistan and, and give an outpost that's right there to, you know, to deal with that.

00:48:50:05 - 00:48:51:17
Speaker 1
So it wasn't, you know, it.

00:48:51:17 - 00:48:55:17
Speaker 2
Wasn't an accident that it was built in that disadvantageous situation.

00:48:55:19 - 00:48:57:14
Speaker 1
But it for, you know.

00:48:57:14 - 00:49:00:11
Speaker 2
For a long time everything was fine. And then one day it wasn't.

00:49:00:13 - 00:49:02:15
Speaker 1
And it was attacked by more.

00:49:02:15 - 00:49:05:06
Speaker 2
Than 300, Taliban forces.

00:49:05:06 - 00:49:12:18
Speaker 2
with machine gun sites and mortar sites and discus sites. Up on the mountains, aiming straight down at these guys.

00:49:12:18 - 00:49:16:14
Speaker 2
I can't think of a worse tactical situation to be.

00:49:16:14 - 00:49:20:21
Speaker 1
In at that point. Yeah. And when it kicked off, the valley filled with smoke immediately,

00:49:22:00 - 00:49:22:18
Speaker 1
The radio.

00:49:22:18 - 00:49:24:19
Speaker 2
Situation out there was nearly impossible to.

00:49:24:19 - 00:49:27:01
Speaker 1
Communicate with because as soon as you can kind of.

00:49:27:01 - 00:49:45:10
Speaker 2
Picture this vertical environment, as soon as the F-15 is over here, you're out of radio contact. You don't, you know, radios can't go through rock, so you had to always have somebody overhead. My role in that is I was, you know, the I was on alert that day, so I was not supposed to be in that battle.

00:49:45:10 - 00:49:51:20
Speaker 2
But the guys that had flown the day before, dude callsign were still out there at the end of a mission. They were out of.

00:49:51:20 - 00:49:52:23
Speaker 1
Weapons, and this thing.

00:49:52:23 - 00:49:54:18
Speaker 2
Kicks off, and it was like four a am.

00:49:54:19 - 00:49:56:15
Speaker 1
Roughly speaking.

00:49:56:17 - 00:50:09:01
Speaker 2
And so we launched alert. My two fighters launch alert out of boredom. It's a little under ten minutes to get out there. And by the time we got there, the valley's completely full of smoke. You can't see a thing. So we're targeting.

00:50:09:02 - 00:50:09:16
Speaker 1
Normally, we.

00:50:09:16 - 00:50:21:05
Speaker 2
Use that electro optical system on the strike Eagle called the sniper pods. Really good, really high resolution. But we had to actually use our synthetic aperture radars to pick out the metal targets on the mountains, which are going to be your machine gun sights.

00:50:21:06 - 00:50:22:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. The that's important.

00:50:22:18 - 00:50:25:18
Speaker 2
To the story. So you target off of this radar and that's what.

00:50:25:18 - 00:50:28:02
Speaker 1
Feeds into your bombs, you know, in this case.

00:50:28:02 - 00:50:30:11
Speaker 2
Jams, which once you release they are.

00:50:30:11 - 00:50:31:03
Speaker 3
Not.

00:50:31:05 - 00:50:32:00
Speaker 1
Recordable.

00:50:32:04 - 00:50:32:17
Speaker 2
And they're going to.

00:50:32:17 - 00:50:34:02
Speaker 3
Get you got a little leash on it where you.

00:50:34:02 - 00:50:34:18
Speaker 1
Can't, you can't.

00:50:34:18 - 00:50:36:11
Speaker 2
Re steer a in flight, whatever.

00:50:36:11 - 00:50:40:02
Speaker 1
Coordinates you fed that thing, that is where it's going. And we the one of the big.

00:50:40:02 - 00:50:42:23
Speaker 2
Advantages of the strike eagle at the time is that we could multi-target.

00:50:42:23 - 00:50:45:02
Speaker 1
So we would, we would load multiple.

00:50:45:04 - 00:50:53:01
Speaker 2
Times with coordinates from, from what we found in our radar or sniper pods, and then release them simultaneously to take out a whole bunch of positions at once.

00:50:53:01 - 00:50:56:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. And for folks who don't know what a JDM is, what is it?

00:50:56:10 - 00:51:05:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Joint direct attack. Musician. Ammunition. Excuse me. Yeah. So the JDM is a G.P.S. guided weapon.

00:51:05:04 - 00:51:05:22
Speaker 2
Was really.

00:51:05:22 - 00:51:06:11
Speaker 1
Innovative.

00:51:06:11 - 00:51:09:20
Speaker 2
When it came out in the early 2000. So this is a regular bomb.

00:51:09:22 - 00:51:14:23
Speaker 1
And on the back of it is a tail kit that listens to satellites and knows its.

00:51:14:23 - 00:51:18:12
Speaker 2
Own position off a satellite so that it can guide to the coordinates that.

00:51:18:12 - 00:51:22:06
Speaker 1
You gave it. Yeah. So highly, highly accurate.

00:51:22:08 - 00:51:35:09
Speaker 2
But not steerable like a laser guided bomb, which you can actually just move with your laser and it'll follow your laser beam. This is not that. Once this one comes off the jet, it will shock the target. You aim to that? So you'd better aim right.

00:51:35:10 - 00:51:42:15
Speaker 1
This is kind of where to the story. Oh, yeah. So we we we get over to Keating and, and my two ship.

00:51:42:15 - 00:51:44:23
Speaker 2
Splits up, we've got radio relay from one of.

00:51:44:23 - 00:51:45:22
Speaker 1
Them, and I'm, I'm the.

00:51:45:22 - 00:51:48:17
Speaker 2
Attacking aircraft, so I'm out.

00:51:48:19 - 00:51:49:14
Speaker 1
To the east.

00:51:49:14 - 00:51:52:01
Speaker 2
Turning back into release weapons.

00:51:52:03 - 00:52:01:05
Speaker 1
Now the JDM has a little bit of a release window when you talk about a traditional non guided.

00:52:01:05 - 00:52:02:15
Speaker 2
Bomb, you have to release at.

00:52:02:15 - 00:52:04:17
Speaker 1
An exact point in space because it's going.

00:52:04:17 - 00:52:05:22
Speaker 2
To freefall to the target.

00:52:06:00 - 00:52:07:06
Speaker 1
JDM, because it has.

00:52:07:06 - 00:52:08:03
Speaker 2
A little bit of steering.

00:52:08:03 - 00:52:11:11
Speaker 1
Ability. There's a little bit of slop in there, but it's not much.

00:52:11:11 - 00:52:29:02
Speaker 2
We're talking a couple of seconds between the beginning and the end of your release window. So we were targeted. You can imagine the chaos we're targeted to the three main machine gun sites that are hitting the valley at that time, and I'm about to release these weapons, and my jet goes through a, massive hydraulic failure.

00:52:29:02 - 00:52:31:07
Speaker 1
I don't know why these things happen.

00:52:31:07 - 00:52:33:02
Speaker 2
In airplanes, but my radar.

00:52:33:04 - 00:52:35:16
Speaker 1
Went down. My ability to land went down. My my.

00:52:35:16 - 00:52:36:13
Speaker 2
Landing gear was.

00:52:36:13 - 00:52:37:13
Speaker 1
Stuck.

00:52:37:15 - 00:52:44:15
Speaker 2
My speed brake was stuck. My wheel brakes were stuck, and my ability to refuel was gone, which is not a very comfortable feeling. Over.

00:52:44:19 - 00:52:47:19
Speaker 3
None of that stuff's important, so. Right, right.

00:52:47:21 - 00:52:48:20
Speaker 1
And it, you.

00:52:48:20 - 00:52:50:13
Speaker 2
Know, remember, this is a two seat airplane.

00:52:50:13 - 00:52:54:20
Speaker 1
So I've got mule kiwi in my back seat. And it to that point.

00:52:54:20 - 00:53:01:10
Speaker 2
About the parachutes earlier, the the training is just there and the mentality is just there.

00:53:01:12 - 00:53:03:16
Speaker 1
So mule and I silently we talked.

00:53:03:16 - 00:53:04:16
Speaker 2
About this later.

00:53:04:17 - 00:53:05:10
Speaker 1
With no.

00:53:05:10 - 00:53:11:13
Speaker 2
Words. We're analyzing every system on that airplane. Was the radar loss going.

00:53:11:13 - 00:53:12:18
Speaker 1
To affect what we had just.

00:53:12:18 - 00:53:14:04
Speaker 2
Programed into those bombs?

00:53:14:05 - 00:53:15:06
Speaker 1
Was it were these bombs.

00:53:15:06 - 00:53:16:15
Speaker 2
About to come off the rail.

00:53:16:17 - 00:53:18:22
Speaker 1
And go freefall, which would have hit.

00:53:19:00 - 00:53:19:15
Speaker 2
The Friendly's

00:53:19:15 - 00:53:21:17
Speaker 1
Or were they going to not release because the.

00:53:21:17 - 00:53:25:17
Speaker 2
Hydraulics controlled the release circuit on, on the aircraft's wing?

00:53:25:19 - 00:53:27:19
Speaker 1
What was going to happen if we push that button?

00:53:27:19 - 00:53:33:22
Speaker 2
And what damage were we about to cause to these guys that are in, the worst imaginable situation already?

00:53:34:00 - 00:53:37:09
Speaker 1
And, you know, when you play the tapes back, this happens.

00:53:37:09 - 00:53:39:06
Speaker 2
In about one second and you just hear a mule.

00:53:39:06 - 00:53:47:04
Speaker 1
Go, you good? And I go, yep. And then bombs away. And they hit. But that is not that tape does not represent what was going.

00:53:47:04 - 00:53:47:11
Speaker 2
Through our.

00:53:47:11 - 00:53:48:14
Speaker 3
Minds. Oh I can only.

00:53:48:16 - 00:53:50:14
Speaker 1
I mean we were just tumbling up.

00:53:50:14 - 00:54:00:02
Speaker 2
There trying to think through the jet systems unfortunately came to the same conclusion at the same time that this was going to work. And these guys needed this more than,

00:54:00:04 - 00:54:04:14
Speaker 1
You know, more than the weight of the risk of not that's not it. Yep.

00:54:04:15 - 00:54:18:12
Speaker 3
Why is it is I'm hearing you talk about it like, why is your personal safety, how you get back to Bagram, how you land. Why is that not coming through your mind? Why is it only about, hey, I need to get these weapons on there because these boys are getting pounded.

00:54:18:14 - 00:54:21:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. You don't even think about.

00:54:21:18 - 00:54:26:13
Speaker 2
Your personal safety up there. And I bet you it's the same on the ground. You're thinking about your team members.

00:54:26:18 - 00:54:31:08
Speaker 1
We have a we have a sign at Bagram. When you walk.

00:54:31:08 - 00:54:43:16
Speaker 2
Out the door, it's right over. The last thing you see is you run to your jets, and it just says the mission is an 18 year old with a rifle as the last thing we go out the door with. And that is the mentality we stay with the whole time.

00:54:43:17 - 00:54:46:20
Speaker 1
You know, no matter how dangerous things get in the sky, it's not.

00:54:46:20 - 00:54:48:05
Speaker 2
The same as what you're dealing with on the.

00:54:48:05 - 00:54:48:15
Speaker 3
Ground.

00:54:48:15 - 00:55:03:17
Speaker 3
Now there's boys at up at Keating. I mean, it's funny you learning. You go, okay, it's not going to happen. And then as soon as we get in a theater, it's it is a carbon copy over and over and over again. And if anything, the Taliban knows exactly why you're there. Yeah. And they in some ways know a lot of your playbook better than anything else.

00:55:03:19 - 00:55:21:22
Speaker 3
The thing that I will tell you, man, sitting here right now, you know, as a thank you to I can probably speak safely on behalf of everybody. And I know there's a mutual respect, but I will tell you, I think one of the best things about being in flying the red, white and blue over there is the way that we have friends, not only just on the ground.

00:55:22:00 - 00:55:47:19
Speaker 3
Sure, I even had my point classmate as my, platoon buddy. We both had our own reconnaissance platoon. He literally about the same outpost, which in and out, like it's just rare to go to college with a guy and then end up being there. But all our buddies up top, you know, in the sky, y'all. And I think there is a we won't admit this at a bar, but there is nothing that gives, especially as a leader on the ground, more breathing room.

00:55:47:21 - 00:56:09:14
Speaker 3
You know, it feels like a quarterback getting blitzed over and over and over again. And just like concussion after concussion. And there's nothing better than here and you know, your forward observer go hey sir, get dude on station one minute. Like I mean you want to talk about feeling like you can breathe because part of it is also just having you there and screaming down in the mountains, less the bad deeds.

00:56:09:14 - 00:56:24:01
Speaker 3
No, like my time to run, right? This is not a good time to bring these boys anymore, right? Because this is about to be over. Just thanks. On behalf of all the guys down there, you know, it really does matter a lot. And that I didn't even know that y'all had that time running out and screaming to your jets.

00:56:24:01 - 00:56:38:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. The way we all work together again. Kind of like brothers giving each other a hard time. You know where we're at that we're playing. But when we were out there, man, it's like, I can talk junk on my brothers, but you better, you know, don't touch this right. You know? So, yeah, just thanks for everything, Astrum.

00:56:38:13 - 00:56:40:00
Speaker 3
And what do you and your guys do out there?

00:56:40:01 - 00:56:43:19
Speaker 2
Right back at you? And, I mean, you know, we know where the risk really lies.

00:56:43:19 - 00:56:45:17
Speaker 1
And what you what you're willing.

00:56:45:17 - 00:56:59:22
Speaker 2
To do, the courage it takes to put yourself out there and get back out there and march to the side again after something like that happens is, remarkable. Yeah. And, I don't know how you do it that I agree. It is a sibling rivalry, which means there's a lot of love there, right?

00:57:00:00 - 00:57:20:21
Speaker 3
Always mean. Always. So let's talk about some Thunderbirds. You get down with, you get down with obviously combat time, career, all this stuff, and you're still on your way to the goal is be an astronaut 100%. And yet you give that dream up to go take over this storage unit for sure. This organization that America knows dearly.

00:57:20:22 - 00:57:23:01
Speaker 3
Give me a load of reason why that happened.

00:57:23:02 - 00:57:26:15
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:57:26:17 - 00:57:28:10
Speaker 1
You bet. So going back.

00:57:28:10 - 00:57:34:16
Speaker 2
Like after that combat experience, you know, I went off to fighter weapons school, which is like our Top Gun. And then.

00:57:34:16 - 00:57:36:07
Speaker 1
That that was, you know, I had.

00:57:36:09 - 00:57:37:06
Speaker 2
Remember, you're supposed to be.

00:57:37:06 - 00:57:40:03
Speaker 1
Test pilot to to go to space. That was a key.

00:57:40:03 - 00:57:41:23
Speaker 2
Part of the story. Yeah.

00:57:42:01 - 00:57:43:05
Speaker 1
Well, I went the other direction.

00:57:43:05 - 00:58:01:23
Speaker 2
There's kind of a split path in the Air Force for for fighter pilot. So you can either go to, to weapons school, which is, that's Top Gun, but it's a little bit longer. And that's your high intensity. Become the best instructor in the world, you know, leadership course. Really? Really amazing course. That's another Air Force base.

00:58:02:01 - 00:58:06:23
Speaker 2
Six months. You become the best in your jet. And after that, what you're supposed to.

00:58:06:23 - 00:58:07:11
Speaker 1
Do is.

00:58:07:11 - 00:58:21:14
Speaker 2
Go on to leadership roles and become a tactical instructor. That, that really leads at that upper level mission command out to, like, 100 jets plus and, and teach other instructors how to be amazing. And then you go on its leadership course. Right.

00:58:21:14 - 00:58:22:03
Speaker 1
So it kind of.

00:58:22:05 - 00:58:27:09
Speaker 2
The trajectory of that one is fairly set. And then this other path is experimental flight test.

00:58:27:14 - 00:58:29:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Which you, you know.

00:58:29:08 - 00:58:31:11
Speaker 2
That's something you apply for around year ten.

00:58:31:17 - 00:58:33:00
Speaker 1
Test pilot school. You learn.

00:58:33:00 - 00:58:35:23
Speaker 2
To fly all the different things from rotary wing to blimps and.

00:58:35:23 - 00:58:36:17
Speaker 1
Right, and.

00:58:36:19 - 00:58:37:17
Speaker 2
Everything.

00:58:37:19 - 00:58:38:09
Speaker 1
And you become an.

00:58:38:09 - 00:58:42:12
Speaker 2
Experimental test pilot where you're looking at the next thing. Also a really cool career path.

00:58:42:12 - 00:58:43:09
Speaker 1
And that's the one that.

00:58:43:09 - 00:58:53:12
Speaker 2
Has astronaut kind of loosely appended to that possible chain. So I had a really good leader, in that squadron that I was in that that was downrange with you guys.

00:58:54:12 - 00:59:05:01
Speaker 2
Called the Chiefs. His name was Gipper Bunch. And it retired as a one star very recently. And I remember him asking me what I wanted to do, when I was leaving the Chiefs and I.

00:59:05:03 - 00:59:07:21
Speaker 1
I gave him the answer that I knew I was supposed to.

00:59:07:21 - 00:59:08:23
Speaker 2
Give, which is that I'm going to go to.

00:59:08:23 - 00:59:10:09
Speaker 1
Weapons school. I'm going to command in the.

00:59:10:11 - 00:59:12:18
Speaker 2
US Air Force. And he was like, what else?

00:59:12:19 - 00:59:13:12
Speaker 1
And he.

00:59:13:12 - 00:59:14:10
Speaker 2
Actually brought in.

00:59:14:10 - 00:59:20:00
Speaker 1
Like he knew. Yeah. So he brought in his group commander. John Ruby.

00:59:20:02 - 00:59:22:03
Speaker 2
He I remember this conversation so.

00:59:22:03 - 00:59:25:08
Speaker 1
Well because they asked they took the time to ask.

00:59:25:08 - 00:59:28:13
Speaker 2
The question of I understand that's the default answer.

00:59:28:15 - 00:59:30:01
Speaker 1
What else?

00:59:30:03 - 00:59:30:16
Speaker 2
And I was like.

00:59:30:16 - 00:59:33:22
Speaker 1
Okay, I am you know, I had gotten.

00:59:33:22 - 00:59:36:02
Speaker 2
A master's degree to check that.

00:59:36:02 - 00:59:37:09
Speaker 1
Box to be.

00:59:37:09 - 00:59:47:16
Speaker 2
Eligible for test pilot school, to keep that dream alive. While I was becoming an instructor in the F-15. And so I had an aerospace engineering master's degree. But, you know, I was qualified, but I was just.

00:59:47:17 - 00:59:51:04
Speaker 1
Afraid to ask because you're not supposed to be able to do both. It's not a.

00:59:51:04 - 00:59:52:02
Speaker 3
Thing. It's. That's great. Yeah.

00:59:52:02 - 00:59:54:16
Speaker 1
So so I said, well, all right, you know, I still.

00:59:54:16 - 01:00:00:21
Speaker 2
Have a dream of being an astronaut. I like I would like to pursue test pilot school. And they were both like.

01:00:00:23 - 01:00:02:06
Speaker 1
Well then do both.

01:00:02:08 - 01:00:04:04
Speaker 2
I was like, well, sir, that's impossible.

01:00:04:06 - 01:00:09:03
Speaker 1
I like to do both. So they kind of gave me a path and, kind.

01:00:09:03 - 01:00:10:16
Speaker 3
Of broke something in your brain about. Yes.

01:00:10:17 - 01:00:13:21
Speaker 1
About it. Yes. That that allowed me to go to weapon school and do that.

01:00:13:22 - 01:00:24:14
Speaker 2
Come back as an operational test pilot instructor, which those are your weapon school grads that are doing that job and then apply to test pilot school three years later, graduate from that as well.

01:00:24:16 - 01:00:26:06
Speaker 1
And so so I did it. So I was in.

01:00:26:06 - 01:00:32:16
Speaker 2
This really strong position, really strong position because at the time there's only been three people that.

01:00:32:17 - 01:00:36:03
Speaker 3
I was going to say that can't be, you all got to count on one hand how many people do that?

01:00:36:03 - 01:00:42:01
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, it's it's pretty unique because it's because it's meant to be split paths. So you really end up.

01:00:42:01 - 01:00:49:14
Speaker 2
Being this critical cross point between the warfighter and the design and experiments of aircraft that are going on at the same time.

01:00:49:15 - 01:00:50:13
Speaker 1
And, you know, it.

01:00:50:13 - 01:00:53:01
Speaker 2
Was literally you could count on, on three fingers.

01:00:53:07 - 01:00:54:23
Speaker 1
How many people had done that at the time.

01:00:54:23 - 01:00:59:15
Speaker 2
Now, fortunately, we've made a few more since then. There's about, seven of us now.

01:00:59:16 - 01:01:02:13
Speaker 1
So no less. So it's growing. Yeah.

01:01:02:16 - 01:01:09:09
Speaker 3
You are. You doubled? Yeah. Stay in business. Hey, we grew by 100%. Hundred percent off of what number?

01:01:09:11 - 01:01:12:09
Speaker 1
So I, you know, from that, from that point when I graduated.

01:01:12:09 - 01:01:19:21
Speaker 2
From test pilot school the first time. Sorry, I only graduated once I applied to NASA the first time, right after graduating from test pilot school.

01:01:19:21 - 01:01:20:06
Speaker 3
Okay.

01:01:20:06 - 01:01:22:04
Speaker 1
And I was too young. I was I was in my.

01:01:22:04 - 01:01:23:16
Speaker 2
My lower 30s, you know, it.

01:01:23:16 - 01:01:24:06
Speaker 3
Was a long shot.

01:01:24:09 - 01:01:26:02
Speaker 1
It was a long shot. Yeah. It was it was.

01:01:26:02 - 01:01:27:04
Speaker 2
Absolutely a long shot. And that.

01:01:27:04 - 01:01:28:02
Speaker 1
Was the huge.

01:01:28:02 - 01:01:32:06
Speaker 2
Board. That was the 2017 board where they had 18,000 applicants on that one.

01:01:32:08 - 01:01:33:05
Speaker 3
Oh my gosh.

01:01:33:05 - 01:01:34:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. It was big. And it was right at.

01:01:34:17 - 01:01:36:02
Speaker 2
The return to American.

01:01:36:02 - 01:01:39:00
Speaker 1
Space. You know like we we had been flying.

01:01:39:00 - 01:01:52:17
Speaker 2
Soyuz for a long time. We were coming back to our own rockets. We were starting to development towards, you know, truly going back to deep space. And so it was really exciting. So a lot of people apply to that board.

01:01:52:19 - 01:01:53:20
Speaker 1
And I, I.

01:01:53:20 - 01:01:59:16
Speaker 2
Was surprised I made it to finals on that board. So I was down to the last 40, in the last round of interviews, and.

01:01:59:16 - 01:02:05:14
Speaker 1
I didn't make that one, but I knew I was like, the how's a good sign? You know, like.

01:02:05:16 - 01:02:06:23
Speaker 3
Yeah, the.

01:02:07:01 - 01:02:13:21
Speaker 1
Word, you know, we got a chance. I mean, it's not you never even come close to counting on.

01:02:13:21 - 01:02:16:08
Speaker 2
That being something that your life's going to get.

01:02:16:09 - 01:02:18:11
Speaker 1
You. Yeah, but you.

01:02:18:13 - 01:02:20:01
Speaker 2
You certainly can't help but notice.

01:02:20:01 - 01:02:25:13
Speaker 1
Like, maybe, maybe this is possible after all. Right, so I go.

01:02:25:13 - 01:02:37:05
Speaker 2
On for another four years because these astronaut boards are four years long, so they're two years total time. But then there's another two years between. So every four years kind of on the Olympic cycle, they start again. Wow. All right. So,

01:02:37:07 - 01:02:38:12
Speaker 1
In that time, I had become.

01:02:38:12 - 01:02:47:04
Speaker 2
A squadron commander of the 59th. It was like the Dream Squadron I had. I had about ten of each fighter type. Ten F-35s, ten F-22s, ten.

01:02:47:07 - 01:02:49:05
Speaker 1
Tens on.

01:02:49:06 - 01:02:49:19
Speaker 3
My ground.

01:02:49:21 - 01:02:58:01
Speaker 1
So I was like and and kind of a blank check to drive the flight and decide.

01:02:58:03 - 01:02:59:07
Speaker 2
Talking to the warfighters.

01:02:59:07 - 01:03:02:18
Speaker 1
Where to aim that test and evaluation to make.

01:03:02:18 - 01:03:04:06
Speaker 2
These fighters is as strong as.

01:03:04:06 - 01:03:09:17
Speaker 1
They can be. Yeah, it was amazing. Amazing job. And so I can't tell you how conclusive that.

01:03:09:17 - 01:03:11:02
Speaker 2
Was for me.

01:03:11:04 - 01:03:12:17
Speaker 1
When.

01:03:12:19 - 01:03:14:14
Speaker 2
NASA board comes around again.

01:03:14:14 - 01:03:20:02
Speaker 1
In 2021 and I'm like, you know, this is a good point to to.

01:03:20:02 - 01:03:22:05
Speaker 2
Say Air Force.

01:03:22:07 - 01:03:28:03
Speaker 1
Thank you. I did it all. You know, I got you had to go to weapons school, test pilot school. I got to command like an.

01:03:28:03 - 01:03:41:18
Speaker 2
Incredible fighter squadron. Good spot to transition over to to NASA. And so I applied to that board. And, as much as you can't assume that it's really possible, you know.

01:03:41:20 - 01:03:44:23
Speaker 1
It was really confident that I had a chance, that I had a chance just because.

01:03:44:23 - 01:03:47:18
Speaker 2
Of the previous one. Yeah.

01:03:47:20 - 01:03:52:03
Speaker 1
Okay. So this is finally getting to where we're going here. So with that.

01:03:52:03 - 01:04:06:13
Speaker 2
Context, my friend Brik, who is the commander of Thunderbirds at the time, called me up one day and said, hey, I want you to come over and think about taking this team. And I was like, no, sir.

01:04:06:15 - 01:04:10:18
Speaker 1
I've, I've got, I've got, I've got my path, you know, and I don't know anything.

01:04:10:18 - 01:04:12:23
Speaker 2
About your demonstration.

01:04:13:01 - 01:04:14:20
Speaker 1
I was not one of the kids that joined the.

01:04:14:20 - 01:04:17:03
Speaker 2
Air Force because of the Thunderbirds. There are lots, right?

01:04:17:03 - 01:04:24:08
Speaker 1
There are lots of people who that's like. That's the thing. And that's, It wasn't you. The ultimate goal wasn't me. You know, you don't know much about the.

01:04:24:08 - 01:04:24:22
Speaker 2
Squadron.

01:04:24:22 - 01:04:25:20
Speaker 1
Unless you've.

01:04:25:23 - 01:04:28:20
Speaker 2
Either been heavily impacted by it as a child or.

01:04:29:00 - 01:04:29:11
Speaker 1
You've.

01:04:29:11 - 01:04:30:07
Speaker 2
Lived a day in their.

01:04:30:07 - 01:04:31:06
Speaker 1
Life. Yeah.

01:04:31:08 - 01:04:37:22
Speaker 2
That's important to story. So they're right down the street from the 59th. I was the commander of the 59th. He was Thunderbirds commander.

01:04:37:22 - 01:04:40:00
Speaker 1
Same base, same flight line.

01:04:40:02 - 01:04:41:21
Speaker 2
The hangars are right next to each other.

01:04:41:23 - 01:04:42:11
Speaker 1
And yet I.

01:04:42:11 - 01:04:47:10
Speaker 2
Had never actually gone over to to talk to him about what he was going through and.

01:04:47:10 - 01:04:48:03
Speaker 1
What he was going.

01:04:48:03 - 01:04:49:09
Speaker 2
Through at the time.

01:04:49:11 - 01:04:52:08
Speaker 1
Was this vision he had.

01:04:52:08 - 01:04:54:03
Speaker 2
For it for a reform of the.

01:04:54:03 - 01:04:56:04
Speaker 1
Team. And I'm going to paint.

01:04:56:04 - 01:05:14:20
Speaker 2
This picture for you because it's important. So prior to him taking over the team for the last three years, they had had three Class-A mishaps, which means total loss of the aircraft. They had had a terrible fatal accident with Cajun. The commander leader had been fired and the demonstration was not flying. Well, you know, if you.

01:05:14:20 - 01:05:15:17
Speaker 1
Look at video.

01:05:15:17 - 01:05:28:03
Speaker 2
Photos from from that era, it's impossible to correlate the distance. They were flying apart from one another, all for the right reasons. They thought they were being safer.

01:05:28:05 - 01:05:29:16
Speaker 1
And they thought that.

01:05:29:18 - 01:05:31:12
Speaker 2
You know, this. It's fine. The crowd can't.

01:05:31:12 - 01:05:37:09
Speaker 1
Tell. Anyway, we we, you know, we just need to fly close enough to, to make an impression.

01:05:37:11 - 01:05:38:13
Speaker 2
And they were flying the.

01:05:38:13 - 01:05:43:17
Speaker 1
Best show they could. So this is none of this is a.

01:05:43:19 - 01:05:53:03
Speaker 2
Is a spear at previous teams. Every single team that the Thunderbirds have since 1953 has dealt with massive adversity in some way.

01:05:53:08 - 01:05:54:00
Speaker 1
You know what that.

01:05:54:00 - 01:06:09:08
Speaker 2
Team has to overcome to get their mission done every day is scary. There are no breaks. You fly twice a day, the weather's bad, you're flying anyway. And it's it is a it is a no fail mission with constant risk. And so that context I think is really important. So in that lens.

01:06:09:09 - 01:06:12:19
Speaker 1
Brick as he had that down.

01:06:12:19 - 01:06:19:17
Speaker 2
Year in the pandemic where the where the demos were not flying, he had really started to think about reform. Cultures go.

01:06:19:17 - 01:06:24:15
Speaker 1
In waves. It wasn't a decline. It was a wave. And, you know, if you.

01:06:24:15 - 01:06:25:15
Speaker 2
Look back in history at.

01:06:25:15 - 01:06:34:14
Speaker 1
Any organization, even nations, I think you can find cultural waves. Yeah. You know, goods and bads, ups and downs. Sometimes catastrophic. But, it's.

01:06:34:14 - 01:06:36:17
Speaker 2
A natural progression. And, you know.

01:06:36:17 - 01:06:39:09
Speaker 1
Things get bad enough that somebody goes, it is time.

01:06:39:09 - 01:06:40:18
Speaker 2
To break glass.

01:06:40:20 - 01:06:42:22
Speaker 1
And and snap, snap back.

01:06:42:22 - 01:06:44:18
Speaker 2
To a different mentality.

01:06:44:20 - 01:06:50:16
Speaker 1
And that was him. So that was that was what he was trying to do. But he was running out of time. And that's why he didn't.

01:06:50:16 - 01:06:51:08
Speaker 3
Give it two years.

01:06:51:08 - 01:06:53:18
Speaker 1
And see you get two years in the seat. And he had.

01:06:53:18 - 01:06:55:13
Speaker 2
He had a third year because.

01:06:55:15 - 01:06:59:03
Speaker 1
The pandemic down the team. And it's completely.

01:06:59:03 - 01:07:02:05
Speaker 2
Impossible to hand that 70 years of tradecraft forward.

01:07:02:07 - 01:07:03:10
Speaker 1
Without a.

01:07:03:10 - 01:07:04:07
Speaker 2
Year of flying.

01:07:04:07 - 01:07:05:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, you.

01:07:05:08 - 01:07:06:09
Speaker 2
Can fly training all you.

01:07:06:09 - 01:07:10:01
Speaker 1
Want, but until you've seen the logistics trail of of taking a team.

01:07:10:01 - 01:07:11:10
Speaker 2
Across America four times.

01:07:11:10 - 01:07:16:09
Speaker 1
A week with, you know, a C-17 full of 80 people and having to.

01:07:16:09 - 01:07:20:14
Speaker 2
Download 32 job types on to a civilian airfield and build your world.

01:07:20:14 - 01:07:29:22
Speaker 1
In a day and then go fly. Yeah. Not something that you can just go. All right, let me give you my notes. Good luck out there. Like. Yeah, here's.

01:07:29:22 - 01:07:34:16
Speaker 3
My little doc on there. Get a little Excel spreadsheet. You'll be all right. Yeah.

01:07:34:18 - 01:07:36:05
Speaker 1
It's so because of that, the extended.

01:07:36:05 - 01:07:43:15
Speaker 2
That time of year. So he got a chance to demonstrate a couple of his concepts and they were awesome. And it's here's how the story comes together.

01:07:43:17 - 01:07:51:02
Speaker 1
So Brick's got that going on I told him I got to plan. Sorry. Like I'm not the guy.

01:07:51:04 - 01:07:56:01
Speaker 2
But the more I got to understand what he was going through, the more I believed in.

01:07:56:01 - 01:07:57:10
Speaker 1
What he was doing.

01:07:57:12 - 01:08:00:14
Speaker 2
He's an incredible leader. He's still active duty. He's still going.

01:08:00:14 - 01:08:01:01
Speaker 1
He.

01:08:01:03 - 01:08:15:05
Speaker 2
He really had the courage to break glass and to take a lot of risk, a lot of career risk, a lot of risk all the way, you know, up and down the chain to try to build this team, into something really special.

01:08:15:10 - 01:08:22:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. So he, that was what was going on when when he asked me to take the team. I have this moment.

01:08:22:12 - 01:08:28:15
Speaker 2
Where I'm standing on the flight line, and I've got to mark Kelly's in front of me.

01:08:28:16 - 01:08:32:10
Speaker 1
Okay? This is this is like, you can't make this stuff up. I've got to.

01:08:32:11 - 01:08:33:19
Speaker 2
Mark Kelly's in front of me.

01:08:33:21 - 01:08:34:12
Speaker 1
One of them is.

01:08:34:12 - 01:08:37:02
Speaker 2
Senator astronaut Mark Kelly.

01:08:37:04 - 01:08:39:21
Speaker 1
Who was on the flight line.

01:08:39:23 - 01:08:45:02
Speaker 2
For my squadron to learn about an F-35 versus an 810 trying to make a decision for Arizona.

01:08:45:04 - 01:08:45:12
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:08:45:15 - 01:08:49:11
Speaker 1
Okay. And then you have general Mark Kelly, four.

01:08:49:11 - 01:08:50:03
Speaker 2
Star.

01:08:50:04 - 01:08:56:06
Speaker 1
Air Combat Command commander, who was just, you know, an incredible fighter pilot.

01:08:56:06 - 01:08:58:15
Speaker 2
Leader, career all the way up through four stars in their.

01:08:58:15 - 01:09:07:02
Speaker 1
Fourth. They're physically standing in front of me right now. And I'm looking at this going, this is weird. It's almost a manifestation of.

01:09:07:04 - 01:09:07:16
Speaker 3
Like, fast.

01:09:07:16 - 01:09:11:17
Speaker 1
Forward to what it's gonna look like if if you did everything right and had all the.

01:09:11:17 - 01:09:13:11
Speaker 2
Luck in the world for 20 more years.

01:09:13:16 - 01:09:15:01
Speaker 1
You might end up where one of these.

01:09:15:01 - 01:09:18:15
Speaker 2
Two superhumans are right now.

01:09:18:17 - 01:09:20:06
Speaker 1
And so that was.

01:09:20:06 - 01:09:25:00
Speaker 2
A really interesting moment for me. And for some reason.

01:09:26:05 - 01:09:37:13
Speaker 2
That was the that was the day that that general Mark Kelly told me that, that I was going to take the Thunderbirds. And for some reason, in that moment, I just knew it was the right thing to do.

01:09:37:15 - 01:09:38:08
Speaker 3
Just a feeling.

01:09:38:09 - 01:09:40:09
Speaker 1
It's just a feeling. Just a feeling. Yeah.

01:09:40:09 - 01:09:49:17
Speaker 2
Even though we were saying goodbye to, you know, 39 years of the same goal. Wow. It it was the right thing to do. And when I look back at it,

01:09:49:17 - 01:09:57:22
Speaker 2
you know, it's hardest, hardest email ever wrote was going back to, to my desk and and writing to to NASA to say I have to withdraw from this board.

01:09:58:00 - 01:10:00:03
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:10:00:05 - 01:10:05:04
Speaker 2
Their response was awesome. By the way, Chief Astronaut emailed me back and he was like.

01:10:05:06 - 01:10:12:02
Speaker 1
I won't quote him exactly. But he was excited. He was like, it was a great decision. Like, have fun.

01:10:12:04 - 01:10:39:06
Speaker 3
I can't I can't imagine how. It's not just like an idea. You. This is a childhood dream. Yeah, right. That you were about to potentially permanently put on ice. You'll see that right into the distance. There'll be an old man one day in wonder. That space. What about. I know at the time there's a feeling as you reflect on it, what are the things that go through your head about?

01:10:39:08 - 01:11:00:03
Speaker 3
I mean, in a way, it's sacrifice. You're moving. And I want to talk about is really the reason I wanted to get you on. After I watched the documentary, I thought to myself, what we're doing here with the American operator is exactly what you did with the Thunderbirds, which is really instill this culture of selflessness and being most involved with the brand that matters the most, which is the American dream.

01:11:00:03 - 01:11:11:19
Speaker 3
Yeah, more than anything else. How does that feel? I don't even know what to ask you in this moment. It's like, no, I can't imagine. I'm just thinking about childhood dreams I had. If somebody told me that has to go away in the service of something bigger.

01:11:11:21 - 01:11:16:08
Speaker 1
You know what's funny is you. And this is probably just growing up, but you think about.

01:11:16:08 - 01:11:17:18
Speaker 2
The institutions.

01:11:17:20 - 01:11:20:20
Speaker 1
A lot in that moment. No part.

01:11:20:20 - 01:11:23:00
Speaker 2
Of me was concerned about.

01:11:23:00 - 01:11:34:10
Speaker 1
NASA being fine, right? I mean, you were talking 80,000 applicants. They're all incredible people. They have, multiple multi-year process to down select to like, the very.

01:11:34:10 - 01:11:40:10
Speaker 2
Best of humankind. And they're very good at it, and they're going to be just fine. Yeah.

01:11:40:12 - 01:11:42:14
Speaker 1
Thunderbirds. Maybe, just maybe.

01:11:42:18 - 01:11:43:14
Speaker 2
Right place, right.

01:11:43:14 - 01:11:45:05
Speaker 1
Time. And so

01:11:45:05 - 01:11:45:19
Speaker 1
when you think.

01:11:45:19 - 01:11:46:22
Speaker 2
About it from an institutional.

01:11:46:22 - 01:11:47:19
Speaker 1
Perspective.

01:11:47:21 - 01:11:55:03
Speaker 2
There is a chance to make an impact here, a big one, on the Thunderbird side and therefore in the Air Force and therefore in the country.

01:11:55:05 - 01:11:56:12
Speaker 1
Oh, by the way.

01:11:56:14 - 01:12:03:20
Speaker 2
Let's not forget what 2020 and 2021 were like in America is one of the most divided times in history.

01:12:03:22 - 01:12:05:23
Speaker 1
Not the worst, but the pandemic was not.

01:12:05:23 - 01:12:06:22
Speaker 2
Good for us.

01:12:07:00 - 01:12:09:22
Speaker 1
And I think the pandemic, combined with social media's divisive.

01:12:09:22 - 01:12:11:14
Speaker 2
Nature, was almost.

01:12:11:14 - 01:12:18:11
Speaker 1
Catastrophic. Yeah. I think we still feel the effects. And when I, when I saw what.

01:12:18:11 - 01:12:21:02
Speaker 2
The Thunderbirds represented, looking at the history of the team.

01:12:21:08 - 01:12:22:01
Speaker 1
Since 50.

01:12:22:01 - 01:12:22:11
Speaker 2
Three.

01:12:22:11 - 01:12:23:14
Speaker 1
It was not founded.

01:12:23:14 - 01:12:28:02
Speaker 2
To recruit. It was not. And this, this history, it really hit me.

01:12:28:02 - 01:12:38:01
Speaker 1
So I'm gonna I'm going to tell you what hit me about it. It was the paint scheme. So when you look at the.

01:12:38:01 - 01:12:49:00
Speaker 2
History of air demonstration in the United States, the Blue Angels were first. They were first in 1946 for a very important reason, because in 1947, this new thing was about to happen called the Air Force. Yeah.

01:12:49:05 - 01:12:50:05
Speaker 1
And so.

01:12:50:07 - 01:12:53:12
Speaker 2
You know, put yourself back there in history, you're afraid you're going to lose your airplanes.

01:12:53:12 - 01:12:56:01
Speaker 1
Army, Navy. It's logical.

01:12:56:01 - 01:12:56:13
Speaker 3
Totally.

01:12:56:13 - 01:12:57:00
Speaker 1
That this.

01:12:57:00 - 01:12:57:22
Speaker 2
New Air Force thing was.

01:12:57:22 - 01:13:00:08
Speaker 1
Going to take it all. And so the Navy.

01:13:00:08 - 01:13:01:22
Speaker 2
Very deliberately.

01:13:02:00 - 01:13:03:03
Speaker 1
Made the blue Angels.

01:13:03:03 - 01:13:07:09
Speaker 2
As a way to remind the world he naval aviation is a thing, and we're really good.

01:13:07:09 - 01:13:07:19
Speaker 1
At it.

01:13:07:21 - 01:13:08:18
Speaker 2
You look at their paint job.

01:13:08:21 - 01:13:11:08
Speaker 1
Blue and gold, navy colors, huge US.

01:13:11:08 - 01:13:12:09
Speaker 2
Navy letters on the bottom of.

01:13:12:09 - 01:13:13:20
Speaker 1
The jet. Yeah, it's still there.

01:13:13:20 - 01:13:15:15
Speaker 2
That mission still there? Yeah.

01:13:15:17 - 01:13:16:00
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:13:16:00 - 01:13:16:22
Speaker 2
Thunderbirds.

01:13:16:23 - 01:13:17:19
Speaker 1
We didn't form.

01:13:17:19 - 01:13:19:15
Speaker 2
Until 53.

01:13:19:17 - 01:13:20:23
Speaker 1
And it was not.

01:13:20:23 - 01:13:21:21
Speaker 2
A recruiting tool.

01:13:21:22 - 01:13:23:05
Speaker 1
We had. No. If you look at it, the.

01:13:23:05 - 01:13:26:20
Speaker 2
Thunderbirds are not blue and silver, not Air Force colors. We had no such problem.

01:13:26:20 - 01:13:32:03
Speaker 1
And it's only because naturally, when people thought about aviation, aviation, you think.

01:13:32:03 - 01:13:33:00
Speaker 2
About the Air Force.

01:13:33:00 - 01:13:36:05
Speaker 1
So name is that it literally said so we we didn't have that.

01:13:36:05 - 01:13:38:00
Speaker 2
Recruiting problem was not a thing for us.

01:13:38:02 - 01:13:38:18
Speaker 1
What we had.

01:13:38:18 - 01:13:42:12
Speaker 2
Was we're smack in the middle of the Korean War.

01:13:42:14 - 01:13:51:02
Speaker 1
We were starting to see this loss of trust between the American institutions and its people. This is not a.

01:13:51:02 - 01:13:53:22
Speaker 2
Super popular war. And things didn't really get better from there.

01:13:54:00 - 01:13:54:13
Speaker 1
And so we had.

01:13:54:13 - 01:13:57:13
Speaker 2
This we had this fracturing of trust between American institutions.

01:13:57:13 - 01:13:58:23
Speaker 1
And the people.

01:13:59:01 - 01:14:00:00
Speaker 2
And so the Thunderbirds were.

01:14:00:00 - 01:14:05:21
Speaker 1
Created to bring that back together to, to demonstrate the capability.

01:14:05:23 - 01:14:11:22
Speaker 2
Of, of American excellence. And so that is why the red, white and blue paint schemes and they have been since the very beginning.

01:14:12:00 - 01:14:13:16
Speaker 1
And if you look at the jets, you can you can see.

01:14:13:16 - 01:14:14:18
Speaker 2
The mission right there.

01:14:14:20 - 01:14:15:04
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:14:15:04 - 01:14:23:21
Speaker 1
Yet nobody even knows their force by the way. They they just know that that's America's team. Yeah. And and so when I started thinking about that in.

01:14:23:21 - 01:14:30:17
Speaker 2
The context of the pandemic and, and, and culture waves, it's like there is a real opportunity to make an impact here.

01:14:30:19 - 01:14:39:04
Speaker 1
Because if we can get the team's ethos to be, we are going to create a beacon of human achievement.

01:14:39:10 - 01:14:46:23
Speaker 2
And we're going to do it in the name of service to something bigger than ourselves. That's a uniting force. That's something that will draw people together.

01:14:47:05 - 01:14:49:00
Speaker 1
Because I don't care who you are.

01:14:49:02 - 01:14:49:21
Speaker 2
Or how divided.

01:14:49:21 - 01:14:54:11
Speaker 1
You feel when you see human achievement in front of you, that is a good feeling.

01:14:54:11 - 01:14:58:10
Speaker 2
That's a that's a very human feeling. And it unites us around that human achievement.

01:14:58:10 - 01:15:00:21
Speaker 1
And I think we see that in so many.

01:15:00:21 - 01:15:02:11
Speaker 2
Things that make America amazing, right?

01:15:02:11 - 01:15:04:12
Speaker 1
It and, you know, the big ones being.

01:15:04:14 - 01:15:07:15
Speaker 2
Like professional sports.

01:15:07:16 - 01:15:08:15
Speaker 1
Professional musicians.

01:15:08:21 - 01:15:11:00
Speaker 2
These are industries that are free.

01:15:11:00 - 01:15:15:17
Speaker 1
To create and that generate billions in revenue. Yeah, because.

01:15:15:17 - 01:15:17:05
Speaker 2
They are human achievement. Right.

01:15:17:05 - 01:15:20:14
Speaker 1
And this is I won't go down this rabbit hole, but I think it.

01:15:20:15 - 01:15:23:07
Speaker 2
I honestly think it's why Karl Marx was wrong.

01:15:23:09 - 01:15:23:20
Speaker 1
About.

01:15:23:20 - 01:15:25:09
Speaker 2
Communism versus capitalism is.

01:15:25:10 - 01:15:26:17
Speaker 1
Because his.

01:15:26:17 - 01:15:30:08
Speaker 2
Concepts were labor costs, labor costs, labor costs.

01:15:30:08 - 01:15:32:01
Speaker 1
And then we went and said, no, watch this.

01:15:32:01 - 01:15:33:07
Speaker 2
Watch what inspiration can do.

01:15:33:10 - 01:15:35:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, we can make money out of nothing by.

01:15:35:11 - 01:15:36:10
Speaker 2
Hitting the ball really well.

01:15:36:11 - 01:15:44:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, right. It's huge. It's huge to me. And so so so now imagine the power of that human achievement.

01:15:44:01 - 01:15:46:20
Speaker 2
Uniting force, but also in the name of public service.

01:15:46:22 - 01:15:50:22
Speaker 1
With a giving vibe. That was the aim. And that's what got me.

01:15:50:22 - 01:16:05:15
Speaker 3
Hey, y'all. Real quick. Check it out. This show, if you like it. We like you. I'd love for you to give us a rating and a review. We read every comment, whether it's on Apple or Spotify. And here's the real reason why it helps other Americans out there who are chasing their dream.

01:16:05:19 - 01:16:14:01
Speaker 3
Hear this message. And if you got a friend that you think could use a little inspiration and some of these words hit with you. Please share this with them. All right. Back to the show.

01:16:14:01 - 01:16:19:18
Speaker 2
all right, man. So we're back from the break, Astro. I'm getting more used to calling you by that name. Now, I know it's not call sign. It's the name. It's the name.

01:16:19:19 - 01:16:40:19
Speaker 2
So now I'm feeling much more comfortable doing it. So especially, I feel like maybe I've, earned a little bit of understanding of it here. Here's where I want us to go now, I think as really when when I first thought about when I first watched the documentary on Netflix, first thing went to my brain and literally as soon as they rolled credits was, he can help us with our mission.

01:16:40:21 - 01:17:01:19
Speaker 2
Yes, the Thunderbirds and all the things that go on, technically. Sure folks. Really, please watch it. Please watch it. Because you'll get a lot of that adrenaline pumping more a little bit more technical, understand? It's an incredible, incredible story. The thing that I really want to focus on here is really the culture building aspect. Yeah. And we kind of went into here right before the break.

01:17:01:19 - 01:17:18:06
Speaker 2
We went into, you know, a lot of things brick did, which is awesome. And I think there's a lot of sacrifice on your part for seeing that mission for what it was and saying, you know what, my turn to take the torch. I can make an impact here. Can you walk us through some of the things you did behind the scenes that maybe didn't make the film?

01:17:18:06 - 01:17:25:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, they were culturally meaningful. They kind of changed the way the Thunderbirds are and where they currently at or today. Yeah.

01:17:25:04 - 01:17:49:00
Speaker 1
You bet. So we you know, we knew we had, we knew we had to make everything harder, significantly harder. You know, training had to nearly double. I think it did the math on it. We trained 66% more than we had before. That's 66% more sorties, more maintenance, you know, more work on the aircraft. Oh, by the way, we took it on the road.

01:17:49:04 - 01:18:08:06
Speaker 1
So, so for the first time, like my 2022 team, we were the first ones to instead of training at our home base where it's comfortable, where the logistics is there, where the contingencies are easy, and where we know the terrain, we knew that if we were going to perform well on the road, which is the mission, we go on the road for training.

01:18:08:08 - 01:18:25:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. So we we took the team to Spaceport America, which is the middle of nowhere. You see, it's in New Mexico. Okay. It's where, it's a spaceport. It's a huge 12,000ft runway. But what it's meant for is it's actually, Virgin Galactic was was launching out of there.

01:18:25:14 - 01:18:26:02
Speaker 2
Interesting.

01:18:26:02 - 01:18:55:14
Speaker 1
Me? Yeah. So, you know, you have this huge empty space. I'm talking. The hotel was an hour and a half away. Nearest town was Truth or Consequences. New Mexico is not that. What do they do? Yes, yes it is. So, you know, it was is pretty remote. Yeah. We had to get somewhere where the only thing we thought about was flying airplanes, maintaining airplanes, and perfecting that show to really bring that mission focus.

01:18:55:20 - 01:19:13:11
Speaker 1
So bear with me. I'm gonna go through just kind of a list of of major, major changes as get to the why behind all of it. So we had to learn to, to live and work on the road. And so every two weeks we went to a new spot to train new terrain, new density, altitude, you know, new environment, new mountains, new everything, runway environment.

01:19:13:11 - 01:19:14:13
Speaker 2
Just to build that comfort.

01:19:14:13 - 01:19:34:14
Speaker 1
With that comes a little different. Yep. Yeah. With chaos. We we changed, you know, that that was a significant impact on the families, by the way. You know, not an easy sell because normally, you know, you change teams in November. That's supposed to be home time, you know, November through the holidays up to March. It's supposed to be.

01:19:34:14 - 01:20:03:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, we're busy, but we're busy at home. And this was now. Yeah, we're busy and we're busy deployed. Wow. So big ask. Right. Huge part of what we talked about this a little bit earlier, but the team had to become and stay I should say, but really emphasize being a giving team. You cannot allow the celebrity aspect of the Thunderbirds to creep into your culture.

01:20:03:21 - 01:20:23:15
Speaker 1
And it's been there. You know, this this concept of, you know, he town in America. You're lucky to have us. So roll out the red carpet and, you know, let's make sure we've got the best amenities for the team, because these are special people. Wow. That's the exact opposite of the mentality that this team needs to have.

01:20:23:19 - 01:20:25:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, and the Air Force, right?

01:20:25:04 - 01:20:45:12
Speaker 1
Yes, it needs to be. We are lucky to be here for you. Everything we do, every second of that, that time that we spend in your town, you know, you haven't seen us in some cases in 13 years. And we are here to show you that we are your Air Force. And I don't care if you ever sign up for the military.

01:20:45:14 - 01:21:06:08
Speaker 1
We are still your Air force, and we're here to give to you. So not outreach like you would do when you think recruitment, but giving the way you would do when you think service. Yeah, that mentality was important right along with that. When, you know, if you were to sit breaking me down one day and say, hey, what's a what was it?

01:21:06:09 - 01:21:15:01
Speaker 1
You know, but you look at that 2000 block when things started to drift. What was it? I have an answer. And that answer is self-promotion.

01:21:15:03 - 01:21:15:20
Speaker 2
You said self-promotion.

01:21:15:20 - 01:21:42:22
Speaker 1
Self-promotion through, through, through the bullhorn of social media. And and I think this is I think this is important when you look at, you know, between when social media really got going and, you know, 2008 nine range to, this onset of culture creep of, you know, I can fly really well, live, but that's only 100,000 people that see that.

01:21:43:00 - 01:22:11:07
Speaker 1
But if I take one really good picture, I mean, that's millions. Yeah, yeah. Engagement. Look at the engagement. Look at look at the outreach. Look at all these words that creep in and, it's scary how insidious it is. And so what comes with that is this drift towards okay. So excellence is now becoming secondary to outreach. And with outreach I'm getting pretty famous.

01:22:11:12 - 01:22:23:16
Speaker 1
You know, like if I tweet something right now about how great I am and with the little cockpit video like I, you know, suddenly I've got 70,000 followers. Yeah. And so this is it's really addictive.

01:22:23:18 - 01:22:24:16
Speaker 2
It's not looking good now.

01:22:24:16 - 01:22:56:17
Speaker 1
It's about looking good and exactly, exactly interesting. And, and so now let's, let's, let's unpack that a little bit. So you know, if I had to like pick a point, right before brick started going, something is wrong. 20 2020 range. We would say that there was a concern of people joining the team to suck the life out of the team, to build their personal brand, to then walk out of the Air Force and go become a famous person.

01:22:56:19 - 01:23:26:04
Speaker 1
Right. Instead of this mentality that we had a return to you of, you are here to pour your life into the team's brand, to build America's brand, to build the Thunderbirds brand, to build the Air Force brand and take nothing away. You know? So this is you. Can you talk about changes? We did not allow our team members to be on social media with with the team's brand as themselves.

01:23:26:06 - 01:23:35:10
Speaker 1
Now, you could, you could push content out as Air Force number four. Right. Because now you're building the team's brand.

01:23:35:10 - 01:23:36:09
Speaker 2
That's going to stay when you and.

01:23:36:09 - 01:23:40:23
Speaker 1
That account stays. Yeah, but you could not push content out is.

01:23:41:02 - 01:23:41:22
Speaker 2
Just an Elliot.

01:23:41:23 - 01:24:00:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So so that selflessness, was for that that little bit of it was very factual was like this. And, you know, with that application class that we brought in, those were the rules and we made that very clear. You were not here to build your personal brand. You are here to build the team's brand.

01:24:00:22 - 01:24:03:05
Speaker 1
If that's not for you, see ya.

01:24:03:07 - 01:24:16:12
Speaker 2
It's like the craziest thing to hear. Even you say out loud it like this hyper technical. Yeah. Team. The thing that one of the unlocks was something I had to do completely with the spirit in the way that you think about, I mean, selflessness.

01:24:16:12 - 01:24:40:18
Speaker 1
It was 100% that and and so it's awesome. You know, I talked a little bit earlier about the weapon school. Yeah. And this is, you know, it is a leadership course in disguise as a, fighter. Advanced fighter, of course. And the motto of the weapon school, is be humble, be approachable, be credible. And that has never left me like, when, you know, and they drill that into you in this course.

01:24:40:18 - 01:24:45:00
Speaker 1
It is not about you. It is not about you. Humble, approachable, credible. That's that's the expectation.

01:24:45:00 - 01:24:46:08
Speaker 2
And that's a good rule for life.

01:24:46:10 - 01:25:13:19
Speaker 1
And now let's when I look at the onset of social media, I can't think of anything that represents more of the opposite of those values. There's nothing humble about a selfie. There's nothing approachable about anonymity, and there's nothing credible about platforms that reward extreme viewpoints over professionals. Right. So, so we if you look back, we had people applying for the team with a resume that was like, look how many followers I have.

01:25:13:19 - 01:25:36:10
Speaker 1
Imagine the outreach I can give you. Oh, by the way, we fly people sometimes, right? So this was another change that we had to make is we fly people in the back seats at the towns that we travel to. It's very tempting. And we get a whole lot of asks from, you know, influencers. Yeah, look up, look how many followers I've got.

01:25:36:11 - 01:25:55:11
Speaker 1
I've got millions. Like, look at the outreach. I can bring you. We had to completely flip the script on that. And we did. And it was like a light switch off, light switch on moment where we were like, we are not flying. You're the those that is not allowed anymore. And it was it was a commander decision with our public affairs officer.

01:25:55:13 - 01:26:12:08
Speaker 1
She was incredible at executing this and at and at being honest about what the opportunity cost was of this, but we executed it and it paid off. So we we would fly people in the back seats that I didn't care if you had a brand. We, we, we had the brand. But that's the way we had to think about it.

01:26:12:08 - 01:26:25:22
Speaker 1
I didn't care if you had a brand. I wanted to see who you are, what do you do? What do you do for your town? What do you do for your community? What do you give to others? What values do you represent? Not how famous are you? And it was a complete flip right there.

01:26:25:22 - 01:26:27:13
Speaker 2
We got a lot of a lot of people. Oh, man.

01:26:27:13 - 01:26:37:17
Speaker 1
Right. Sure. Did we get, we get threats that that it was not like violent threats, but threats of, like, I'm going to use my brand to destroy yours. And I was like, okay.

01:26:37:20 - 01:26:40:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, obviously not the right fit then. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

01:26:41:01 - 01:26:43:08
Speaker 1
Thank you for validating my perspective on this topic.

01:26:43:12 - 01:27:03:20
Speaker 2
How how is a leader? Did you hold the line? Man, I found that to be incredibly difficult across I mean, whether you're in the United States or Thunderbird one. Yeah. Immense amount of social pressure, I mean it. Oh, man. There was a time where even as we were building this brand. Yeah. You know, you get voices from in and out that are just like, you got to do these clickbaity things.

01:27:04:01 - 01:27:14:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I'm like, that's just sounds and antithetical to, like, what we're doing. Exactly. How can you know? I'm not gonna be able to tell the team here all the time. I want you all to be looking yourself in the mirror, and I don't really care about the rest. How did you hold the line?

01:27:14:22 - 01:27:34:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, I had, I I'm going to give a ton of credit to General Mark Kelly for this. Okay, so the accused commander of Air Combat Command, and he's the one that hires Thunderbird one. He gave me, my interview with him was very one way. Yeah, I'm going to reveal this now. I didn't talk much.

01:27:34:06 - 01:28:06:15
Speaker 1
He he was like, here's what I believe in. And I was like, I get it. And it was actually, he had read a book that really hit him. It's actually about Ranger School. And interesting was talking about I wish I could quote the book to you. And I apologize because I bet you you can find it, but, that he didn't really talk about the content other than this one moment he had this this moment when you know, you're you're finished with your kind of graduation march, and it's terrible.

01:28:06:15 - 01:28:32:22
Speaker 1
And, you know, you've been on the on the road out there sweating it out for a really long time. And yeah, you know, I don't know if this is everywhere or if it's only at some of the schools. But he describes this flag at the end of it that says, remember, you joined us. And the the point that he took from that and what he hammered into me before I took command of the team is elite teams don't cave to social pressures.

01:28:33:00 - 01:28:53:05
Speaker 1
Elite teams have an identity and stick to that identity as social pressures waves back and forth around them. And you know, that stuck with me so much. That concept of this is who we are. Plant the flag. You joined us. Hold the line or don't.

01:28:53:07 - 01:28:54:17
Speaker 2
But or don't.

01:28:54:19 - 01:28:59:05
Speaker 1
But you joined us. And so this is this is the culture of this organization.

01:28:59:07 - 01:29:04:01
Speaker 2
So badass. Me, I mean, just what an incredible piece of mentorship right there.

01:29:04:03 - 01:29:26:17
Speaker 1
It was huge. It it drove everything I did from that point forward to to have the confidence to know that my leadership was behind me. Right. Like my four star general believed in what we were about to do because we were about to do some pretty controversial things. We were about to fly closer, lower, tighter to the ground, tighter to the crowd, objectively speaking, more dangerous in every way.

01:29:26:23 - 01:29:49:02
Speaker 1
We were going to deploy more. We were going to make people more tired. We were going to train harder. We were going to ask for more damage on the jets. And, and we were going to do it without any, any semblance of self promotion being allowed within the squadron, which I want you to think about, that the risk of the general community who would apply for the team being like, well then, no thanks.

01:29:49:03 - 01:30:07:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, right. Like, no thank you. You mean you mean I've got to go work harder than I do in combat ops, and I don't even get anything out of it. Right? You can imagine that mentality. If it was there, we could have been in big trouble. So when I tell you this, and at the end of the movie, you actually see this in the credits.

01:30:07:07 - 01:30:24:06
Speaker 1
It's true. So the first year that we implemented these changes, we were worried. Rick was worried, I was worried. Were we ever going to have recruits again? Because the tendency when you're, when you're short on good quality applicants is to lower the bar. Right? That's the that's the tendency of, hey, I'm going to lower the bar. That'll give me more people all over the bar.

01:30:24:06 - 01:30:54:00
Speaker 1
That gets more people. Well, we went the exact opposite way. We raised the bar in every way. Everything from how you applied to the team to flying evaluations for the positions to 12 man interviews. Like, we really raised, and made it clear that you were going to get nothing out of this, on the personal side, but you were going to have the privilege of being a part of this elite culture and and so the first year we implemented that, we had a, we tripled the number of applicants we had ever had.

01:30:54:02 - 01:30:56:21
Speaker 1
And then the year after that, we went 14 to 1 ratio.

01:30:56:23 - 01:30:57:20
Speaker 2
Wow, man.

01:30:57:20 - 01:31:13:19
Speaker 1
So that told me everything I needed to know about people. We do run towards difficult. We do run towards excellence. And when we think something's achievable, we step away from it. Isn't that interesting?

01:31:13:19 - 01:31:28:22
Speaker 2
Like, the weirdest thing you have to regret is the recruiting in the service. And you get folks to get up there for these elite units. They don't go. The first thing they say is look to your left and right. Most of you will not make it. Yeah. And you go, I'm in the right place.

01:31:29:03 - 01:31:45:15
Speaker 1
Exactly. What are you doing exactly, exactly. It's it's built into all of us to chase something impossible. I think that's the most special thing about. About humans. Yeah, I think, I mean, and maybe maybe it's not all people. Maybe it's American.

01:31:45:15 - 01:31:46:19
Speaker 2
Culture. Maybe.

01:31:46:22 - 01:31:52:23
Speaker 1
Right. I think there is certainly in Americans that is amplified times ten.

01:31:53:01 - 01:32:17:17
Speaker 2
It's so true, man. It reminds me, working in my last gig there, we had all services, at the and I love, talking to the Brits and with the Aussies and just getting their perspectives on it. And as much as we also tease each other, the one thing that the two things that always almost consistently, every one of them said was you Americans work at a pace and at a level that just is obscene, like none of our countrymen would even think it's normal.

01:32:17:18 - 01:32:30:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, but then the second thing they say, as much as they kind of bash this or that, like, y'all don't know how to have fun, the second thing they'd say is, but I wouldn't want anybody else in foxhole than an American, because if there's a will, there's a way and they'll find it, you know, and I you maybe it is our country.

01:32:30:15 - 01:32:49:16
Speaker 2
I'm not sure what it is, man. And it's one of those things that see what y'all built with the Thunderbirds from the outside looking in. And again, this is just my understanding of it and hopefully was mission accomplished. But. That's what I read from watching that hour and a half. You know, a little over hour and a half was just, that's where we're at.

01:32:49:20 - 01:32:57:22
Speaker 2
Oh, there we are. Yeah. We're not completely lost. Like there's a group of people still believing that what built this is what will, you know, keep us going.

01:32:57:23 - 01:33:08:15
Speaker 1
I, I completely agree with that. Like, because not because of what I did or what brick did, but because of watching 32 job types and 150 people rally behind that.

01:33:08:20 - 01:33:09:05
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:33:09:05 - 01:33:11:21
Speaker 1
And that that told me everything I need to know. We're going to be just fine.

01:33:12:01 - 01:33:12:09
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:33:12:09 - 01:33:35:21
Speaker 1
You know, I think, As soon as they understood the why, right. Which I made a very prominent part of my change of command speech, like things are about to change. And here's why. And I talked about that paint scheme, why it matters why we're not about recruiting. Recruiting is not inspiring. Nope. Nobody's like, cool, I'll go risk my life for recruiting.

01:33:35:23 - 01:33:59:13
Speaker 1
But they absolutely will risk their life for inspiration of the entire population. You know, we're down to about half percent of Americans who join the military, and that's fine. You know that. That's we need people to do real things. But we have we have to, like, that's the whole point of it all. So, the other 99.5% that are never going to recruit themselves into the military, they matter just as much, maybe more, arguably.

01:33:59:13 - 01:34:00:09
Speaker 2
More or even more.

01:34:00:10 - 01:34:23:23
Speaker 1
Arguably more. You have to have that. Our entire country is based on taking risk, putting yourself out there, generating feedback and driving forward with that new feedback. That is our American way. Actually, Victoria, my wife, has my favorite quote, I think ever. You know, I like I remember this hit me so hard. She we were talking about speed limit signs.

01:34:24:01 - 01:34:45:00
Speaker 1
And she was like, it is more American to do what makes sense than it is to follow any traditions of the past. Yeah, that is exactly who we are. Yeah, right. Like if you think about progress in the United States, it is all based on going. Yeah, we've been doing this a long time, the same way I'm doing it differently.

01:34:45:02 - 01:34:47:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. And let's see what happens.

01:34:47:09 - 01:35:04:01
Speaker 2
Is that operational intelligence you talked about earlier I think it's the ability to bridge the gap. You know, you you this is kind of a culminating thought. I wonder just kind of how it applies to the Thunderbirds, but also just your career at large. I had an old commander one time after. It's funny what happens when you get out and they start telling you things you just didn't know?

01:35:04:02 - 01:35:18:08
Speaker 2
Because part of it is just kind of protecting that unity command and then integrity. But when you when you kind of get to catch up afterwards, there's some things you get to kind of see a little bit behind the curtain of real humans making hard decisions. Yeah. And I remember he said something to me that struck me.

01:35:18:08 - 01:35:35:14
Speaker 2
He goes, you know, in combat, what I listen for was two people, because I asked him some times why they would make certain decisions at headquarters based on what was going on in the ground. And something told me that just struck me. He goes two things. Any time something bad was going down, I always go, who's the who's the bad guy?

01:35:35:15 - 01:35:51:21
Speaker 2
Who's the ground force commander? Who's the guy on the ground? Yeah. And then let me listen to how they're on the radio. He just wanted to see those two things. Told him enough about what's next. And he goes in the right person. He goes, if I knew was a certain person and they had a certain demeanor about themselves, they were going to figure it out.

01:35:51:21 - 01:35:55:15
Speaker 2
I didn't need to do a whole lot. Does that resonate with you 100%?

01:35:55:17 - 01:36:18:17
Speaker 1
I used to listen to my team on the radio. There's a reason for those who don't know, Thunderbird one basically sings the cadence for the entire show. And it's a challenge response, kids. So, so like when they are literally feeding back on the pace of my voice, because you you can't react when you're in the diamond.

01:36:18:17 - 01:36:41:15
Speaker 1
That type, there is no room for reaction. It is. They have to be pulling with me, not pulling based on what they see. So so if I'm doing a loop, like I will sing them a little song, then I'll say nos. Come in. 430, right on into four. There's four. And that's the chicken. This is the no cheating is going on the entire time in the in the show.

01:36:41:15 - 01:36:42:01
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:36:42:01 - 01:36:42:18
Speaker 2
Oh my goodness.

01:36:42:19 - 01:37:06:06
Speaker 1
So here's why. It's not just about that proactive proactive simultaneous impact that we need to have. Yeah. It is about feeding back on how we're doing. So number four threat in the movie has to respond to those calls. And I can tell it. And then there are points in the show where they all respond only two three, four.

01:37:06:08 - 01:37:27:16
Speaker 1
And I can tell how it's going by their vocal inflection. And if they're having fun and life's good, then, and the turbulence isn't too bad, then my team, this was kind of our thing. We would pick up the accent of whatever region of the country we were in. Whole areas like that was hilarious. Like to hear I'd hear the new York accents behind me and I'm like, we are doing it.

01:37:27:18 - 01:37:46:13
Speaker 1
And then sometimes same, same place, same show. But now we're dealing with weather turbulence. Things are getting bad. You know, we had a rough morning with logistics. The jets are breaking and stuff like that. And you just hear that, like, normal deadpan voice, and they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do, and they're in position and they're responding, but it's different.

01:37:46:15 - 01:37:56:14
Speaker 1
And now I know, all right, there's no reason not to push it like, this is this is the day to get through this. Yeah. And and fly the best we can. But it's you know, it's not the day to push.

01:37:56:16 - 01:38:18:08
Speaker 2
What do you for those out there. You know a lot of the folks that tune into the show, they're really they're they're either in the mix right now running some small business in America or maybe contemplating doing that. What advice do you have for them? Just as they think about how to think about their people? You know, you talked about it with hearing them.

01:38:18:10 - 01:38:34:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. But what I hear here is a guy who just deeply cares about his people, in addition to just which is so it's so breaks your brain like this is a military commander, don't they just issue orders and go. And I'm hearing something completely opposite. Any advice for folks out there running their teams about maybe how to think about it a little bit better?

01:38:35:00 - 01:39:08:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, one. And this is certainly true in an elite flying organization. So I bet you it's true everywhere. You need your people more than they need you. You know, you take Thunderbird one out and they'll find another one, but you destroy the culture of that organization and that's it. It's done that. And, you know, unless you unless you're leading an organization where you think you can do all the jobs, the logistics, you know, guy on the radio microphone, getting the team out there in advance, maintaining the jets and flying the planes like the.

01:39:08:13 - 01:39:31:17
Speaker 1
You are just a cog, even as the boss, even as a leader. You are a cog, and you need them more than they need you. I'm a huge believer in the upside down pyramid concepts where the leader supports the team and not vice versa. And you give until you can't anymore. And I know for for all of all of you who are starting a business or going out on your own, I understand the risk.

01:39:31:19 - 01:39:54:18
Speaker 1
I understand the guilt that you probably feel trying to balance that sense of purpose, doing something bigger with what you deal with back home. I've been there. It's something you wrestle constantly. And and, you know, I don't care whether you're dating or whether you have kids. It's the same issue, right? It's like you, you want to be the best at what you're doing professionally.

01:39:54:20 - 01:40:15:17
Speaker 1
You want to be the best at what you're doing at home. For your significant others, for your family. I think that the right balance will convey to your family and your people that that sense of purpose matters. I have a couple of thoughts on, you know, what you were you talked to me earlier about what this show is about.

01:40:15:17 - 01:40:49:03
Speaker 1
It's people reaching out, taking a little bit of risk and and getting after something that they build themselves. And I can't think of anything more fulfilling, whether you're building within a military organization or whether you're building on your own and a tree fort in your backyard, like building is fun, fulfilling, and rewarding. And I'll share with you something that I have noticed about myself and I, I think probably everyone, and that is that you are tired from what you are about to do, not from what you just did.

01:40:49:05 - 01:41:09:06
Speaker 1
So interesting about this. Like, yeah, what's a better day? Friday or Monday? Yeah, probably Friday. Right. Well, you should be exhausted on Friday from your from your week at work and Monday you should be fully recovered from your weekend. Right. But that is not how our brains work. So true. And it's true with anything like it's hard to put on your shoes to go for a run.

01:41:09:08 - 01:41:31:10
Speaker 1
You feel awesome when you finish a run. This is. We as humans are that we are tired from what we're about to do, not from what we just did. By knowing that, I think it really helps you step out and take that chance on doing the next thing. Because you're you know, that the dread that you're feeling is that is that exact concept.

01:41:31:10 - 01:41:49:00
Speaker 1
We just we just talked about. It's that anticipation of, of the thing you're about to tackle, which seems impossible at the time. But just by knowing that, you know that as soon as you get into it, it's going to be amazing and it's going to feel better every day. I think that's an important concept for us all to grasp about ourselves.

01:41:49:00 - 01:42:04:19
Speaker 2
I can't I mean, I've never heard it said that way, but it's so daggone true. And yeah, it's it's almost hard to explain to somebody why hard, fulfilling work is the way to go and why they're feeling drained at that cubicle on a high rise somewhere, you know, whatever. And I think there's there's a world where we need those folks.

01:42:04:19 - 01:42:26:20
Speaker 2
But I think there's a wave of great. I mean, we talk about honoring the past with, you know, generations even coming from the war, starting these small businesses in their towns and building. And I see that every day we go across this country and we see people to them. They would sit here right now next to you, Astro, and go, oh, what you've done is I've done nothing compared to that.

01:42:26:22 - 01:42:45:08
Speaker 2
Yet I know for a fact you'd sit here right now and go, and that's that's the American way. It's how you build up your community, even if it is for that small group of folks. You know, your church, the local school. Yes, man, that could that is why that is why I like you and I spent and you continued to spend a good part of your time sacrificing, you know, life.

01:42:45:10 - 01:42:49:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. To protect that. That's one of the most important things in this country.

01:42:49:10 - 01:43:12:07
Speaker 1
We are driven by a sense of purpose, but it is what it is, what gets us through the day. I believe that transactional, it's not motivating. It doesn't work. That leadership style doesn't work. I don't think there are times when you need to to to get there to, you know, to get people taken care of. But you are driven by a sense of purpose.

01:43:12:13 - 01:43:32:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. It doesn't have to be big. It just has to be yours. And I think what what you are pushing is so important for people to hear, because you're telling them to go take that chance and really build something that that's theirs. With sometimes when I talk to other military people, you know, we don't always have a say in what the job is.

01:43:32:17 - 01:43:53:02
Speaker 1
Sometimes we get stuck in a spot, you know, and, sometimes that spot is kind of a defensive spot where you're literally sitting the watch waiting for something bad to happen. Oh, yeah. And so what I even in that situation, my advice is find something in your life to play offense with, whether you pick up an instrument you've never tried before, or just go find something to motivate yourself outside of work, that's okay.

01:43:53:04 - 01:44:12:01
Speaker 1
But you have to have a sense of purpose in that feeling. A forward motion to feel good, to be happy. It's just who we are. So what? What? You're advocating for is even more special. Well, and that's to to walk out there and take that risk and really take ownership of something. I think it's incredible.

01:44:12:06 - 01:44:30:21
Speaker 2
Well, I appreciate you reflecting the you and I'll tell you that even with the time I spent in the service, it feels like I spent another small lifetime looking for. Is this still possible? And I think for a lot of us, getting out of service, you just wonder if, is there a world out here that feels the same way I do when I was wearing the uniform?

01:44:30:23 - 01:44:47:21
Speaker 2
And I'll tell you, man, we just got done running all over Colorado visiting business owners. It's alive and well. They're just really quiet, humble. They don't talk loud and they don't even have an Instagram account. Believe it or not, people, they just don't. They just don't get that entire town. They're beloved, you know, they work hard and they help their friends.

01:44:47:21 - 01:45:02:19
Speaker 2
They provide food at a wildfire down in, kind of Vail Valley. These guys are feeding first responders. It's just what they do. And I think second about it, in their mind, they're like, now these guys are sacrificing. But you look at what they built. I mean, they're humble business owners are barely putting food on the table. And yet they're going to go do that.

01:45:02:19 - 01:45:05:16
Speaker 2
So yeah, I think the country is in great hands.

01:45:05:18 - 01:45:07:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, I totally agree.

01:45:07:12 - 01:45:30:08
Speaker 2
Well, as we close out last thing, I just want to ask you, and again I'm going to do for the third time, I highly encourage you all to go tune in to, what Asher put together and kind of how you go in there. And, and they kind of talked a little bit about that. And I know I didn't get a chance to cover you letting this video crew in, but I guess also just showing your level of humility and your level of like, I really want this to matter.

01:45:30:10 - 01:45:45:14
Speaker 2
I just hope you all know we in Astro got to catch up even before this conversation. I think it's incredible to just see somebody. It's not like a normal military man thing to do or gal thing to do, but I think understanding, just like the stakes that were on the line, is what struck me when you told me about when you invited these people in y'all's home.

01:45:45:16 - 01:46:04:02
Speaker 2
Basically. Yeah. It was kind of let them see everything. And if y'all watch the show, you'll see that it's not just it's not a Top Gun clip. I mean, this is the human side of sacrifice and people and stress and flying those jets at GS and being a human in a cockpit doing those things. So thank you for doing that, Astro.

01:46:04:03 - 01:46:13:20
Speaker 2
I just want to end with anything that keeps you hopeful about the future of our country and just kind of where it's going. And maybe one day when you do take the uniform off.

01:46:13:22 - 01:46:34:11
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And it's it's it's you're not going to find it on social and you're not going to find it on TV, you're going to find it in your communities and in your families and I believe and I mean this I am not just saying it. I believe we are right on the cusp of finally rejecting the division that's coming into our phones.

01:46:34:13 - 01:47:00:02
Speaker 1
I think that we bought it for a long time. I think we believed for a while that it might just be fulfilling to have a million followers. And, you know, get a couple of ad sponsors in there. And I think that we believed that, but I think that our culture is starting to come back from it now, and I'm starting to see it in the way that folks my age are raising their kids.

01:47:00:02 - 01:47:16:07
Speaker 1
You know, I've got a nine and a seven year old, and we've seen enough now to know that self-promotion. Well, it was never good when we were growing up, and it's not good now. And there was a little while where we maybe thought that, you know, we would say things like, hey, if you can't sell yourself, who's going to do it for you?

01:47:16:09 - 01:47:36:00
Speaker 1
That's not a good value. But I think Americans are seeing it, and I think we are starting to recognize that that whole thing is just a vortex of ads and disinformation. Yeah. And and so I'm this is I'm not no one even has to push it. In fact, that's the American way. Don't let people decide that for themselves.

01:47:36:02 - 01:47:57:03
Speaker 1
The way we rejected ads on TV and TV in and out of existence in the 90s, like that's coming for social media. Yeah, we are going to wake up one day and be like, that was dumb. And when we do that, we'll start focusing on values again and on our communities and on our families and our sense of purpose, not the stuff that we're going to talk about, but the stuff we're just going to do because it feels good to do.

01:47:57:05 - 01:48:00:16
Speaker 1
That's the hope I've got for America, and I see it. It's coming.

01:48:00:18 - 01:48:14:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, and you get to live it every day. I'm honored to be here, man. So stoked. Thank you for letting us in your house and giving us a little piece of your mind. Most importantly, thank you and the rest of the crew that flies the flag every single day for your service. Man, we really appreciate it.

01:48:15:01 - 01:48:33:12
Speaker 1
Thank you, Jake, for what you do because your depth is the antidote to short form media. It is critical. It is the way forward. And I really respect you for that, not just for your public service that you gave a lot of time, for the red, white and blue. But what you're doing now is awesome.

01:48:33:14 - 01:48:35:21
Speaker 2
Thanks, Astro. Likewise.

01:48:35:21 - 01:49:02:03
Speaker 1
Thanks for tuning in to the American Operator Podcast, where we celebrate the backbone of America small business owners and operators like you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so you'll never miss out on more of these stories and insights from people who keep our community strong. Until next time, keep building, keep operating and keep America moving forward.