Why Veterans Make Great Business Owners I John Panaccione - Folla Capital I AO 38

Why do veterans make some of the best business owners in America?
For John Panaccione, the answer starts with leadership, decision-making, and grit — traits forged not in a boardroom, but on the battlefield.

John grew up in Rhode Island in a family with a long history of military service. After years as an Army officer — including a stint leading airborne tank units during Desert Storm — he learned lessons that would carry into every chapter of his life: lead by example, set the standard, and trust your team.

When his military service ended, John traded the jump boots for business. He built and sold a company, started a nonprofit accelerator for veteran entrepreneurs, and now runs Folla Capital, helping others buy, grow, and invest in small businesses across America.

In this episode, John and JC dig into what makes veterans uniquely prepared for ownership — the training, decision-making, and mindset that give them a natural edge — and how investing in veteran-led businesses could reshape Main Street for the better.

It’s about service, stewardship, and the mission that doesn’t end when the uniform comes off.

Real stories. Real ownership. Real lessons from the field.
This is American Operator.

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Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:15
Speaker 1
Hard work. Real talk. No shortcuts. I'm Joseph Cabrera. This is American operator.

00:00:09:15 - 00:00:13:17
Speaker 1
All right. Team here with John Panettone.

00:00:13:19 - 00:00:14:18
Speaker 2
Oh, you nailed it, man.

00:00:14:20 - 00:00:28:19
Speaker 1
Did I say it right? Oh, man. Okay. Good night. Practice. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, when you got a name like Cabrera, you just kind of go have to figure out, like, how these guys say to things. Man. So good to have you and man. And you, you didn't. Most folks fly in or drive right down the road if they're here in town.

00:00:29:01 - 00:00:31:14
Speaker 1
You drove 1400 miles to do this podcast.

00:00:31:14 - 00:00:36:03
Speaker 2
And all in all, in one shot. Two. No, I'm only kidding. I'm only kidding. A few days.

00:00:36:05 - 00:00:41:16
Speaker 1
With the convoy. I mean, you had, RV Jeep tied in tow. Hopefully you're making some.

00:00:41:21 - 00:00:49:22
Speaker 2
Good, darling, good comms, you know, and my license plate on the back of the, RV, you notice there's, jump talk.

00:00:50:00 - 00:01:11:09
Speaker 1
Of course it does mean. Yeah, you can take that thing anywhere you want to go. And, Well, I think with that being said, I don't think it's a secret that, if it isn't now, then we're going to talk a little bit about your military background and ultimately how you end up building, you know, Valley Capital, where you're at now helping folks, getting the owner, owner seat, vet to see you want to dive into all that stuff?

00:01:11:09 - 00:01:37:06
Speaker 1
I think it's really applicable, definitely to the audience. But we were catching up right before the show. And one of the things that I think guys like you and I just click on really quick is our military experience. And we were catching up on just like, how much of that stuff has been almost ingrained in the DNA for stuff that you've done after your time in uniform, can you just give us just a quick like bio specifically highlighting that area there early in your life?

00:01:37:06 - 00:01:41:23
Speaker 1
Right. Where'd you grow up? How did you decide to join the service, and what was that time in the service like?

00:01:42:02 - 00:01:57:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, real quick, because I don't want to put the audience to sleep, but, grew up in Rhode Island, Italian from Rhode Island, and, I wasn't in the mob, but, you know, growing up, you know, I had my own little challenges, right? So one of them is my dad died when I was nine, you know?

00:01:57:03 - 00:02:03:06
Speaker 2
So one of the reasons I joined the Army was he had spent 27 years in the Army, you know.

00:02:03:06 - 00:02:04:03
Speaker 1
Oh, he's a career guy.

00:02:04:06 - 00:02:11:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, he was older when when he died. So he had been in World War two, served in Korea and Vietnam, you know?

00:02:11:17 - 00:02:12:15
Speaker 1
Holy smokes.

00:02:12:15 - 00:02:31:18
Speaker 2
Man. And then all my uncles had served I had one uncle that died in a B-17 wreck and, during World War two, so strong family history of serving. You know, I had a cousin that served 101st in Vietnam and, you know, so, anyway, it was a strong drive for me, but I really didn't decide too late to join the Army.

00:02:31:18 - 00:03:13:02
Speaker 2
That's I don't want to burn time on that, but I ended up going the Army had ROTC, did pretty well in that. And and, for some great reason, I was selected armor. But I ended up getting assigned to Fort Bragg, and, so I was that was really a great, great turning point in my life because it was the only airborne tank battalion in the free world, as we used to say, Sheridan, like tanks, you can jump drop out of airplanes at the time and, the leaders, the NCOs in particular, and the officers in that battalion, but also the the division officers were mostly Vietnam vets at the time.

00:03:13:06 - 00:03:15:02
Speaker 2
I'm talking late 80s. I'm an old guy.

00:03:15:07 - 00:03:15:15
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:03:15:20 - 00:03:38:12
Speaker 2
And, just the leaders there or just incredible. And and as a young lieutenant, to learn from these NCOs and officers was just an incredible experience. So I think we'll talk about some of those lessons today. But, you know, did that for, close to five years, deployed the Desert Shield, Desert Storm, you know, one of the claims to fame is we were the very first DRB to get alerted and get over there.

00:03:38:17 - 00:03:39:04
Speaker 1
Get out of.

00:03:39:04 - 00:03:48:00
Speaker 2
Here. So my company's tanks were the first armor, you know, that went to the Middle East, you know? So, there's some funny stories around that if you want to drill down on that.

00:03:48:02 - 00:04:05:14
Speaker 1
Heck, yeah. Do you mean. Well, I mean, just I mean, I want you to keep going, but that's just for folks who don't understand the tank part, because I want to pick it up there. I want you to let you finish. But like, tanks are cool. Tanks in the 82nd airborne is a whole different thing. You're literally pushing these tanks out the back of airplanes and parachutes on it, right?

00:04:05:14 - 00:04:05:22
Speaker 1
Right.

00:04:06:01 - 00:04:08:14
Speaker 2
C-130s back then C-1 40.

00:04:08:14 - 00:04:22:05
Speaker 1
Ones, C fives. Unreal. I mean, it's it's nuts. Yeah. I mean, I know we're from a military perspective, the best in the world and pushing things out the back of an airplane and getting to work. But I think pushing the tank is a whole different thing, man.

00:04:22:06 - 00:04:38:04
Speaker 2
It's technically not a tank. It's technically classified as an airborne reconnaissance vehicle, but if it looks like a tank, clanks like a tank and it's a tank, right. And it's got 152 millimeter gun on it, which is bigger than the M1. Yeah, it's a real buddy to the infantry, you know.

00:04:38:04 - 00:04:39:00
Speaker 1
And when.

00:04:39:05 - 00:04:39:21
Speaker 2
It's needed.

00:04:39:23 - 00:04:41:17
Speaker 1
They work well.

00:04:41:19 - 00:04:54:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. It's amazing when you deploy in a war zone how well they keep working. You know, the soldiers really take really good care of it in a war zone. So a lot of them are most of them stayed up most of the time. We were over there and, Wow. Yeah. And I can haul ass too, man.

00:04:54:17 - 00:04:56:15
Speaker 1
Oh, I bet you can roll. Yeah.

00:04:56:17 - 00:05:00:17
Speaker 2
I bet it's like 17 tons compared to 1 in 1. That's 70, 70 tens.

00:05:00:17 - 00:05:02:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. How many? It's three person crew or four.

00:05:02:23 - 00:05:03:08
Speaker 2
Person.

00:05:03:08 - 00:05:04:14
Speaker 1
For a person. Crew. Yeah,

00:05:04:14 - 00:05:24:17
Speaker 1
Hey, y'all, real quick. Check it out. This show, if you like it. Well, we like you. I'd love for you to give us a rating and a review. We read every comment, whether it's on Apple or Spotify. And here's the real reason why it helps other Americans out there who are chasing their dream. Hear this message. And if you got a friend that you think could use a little inspiration in some of these words, hit with you.

00:05:24:20 - 00:05:27:17
Speaker 1
Please share this with them. All right. Back to the show.

00:05:27:17 - 00:05:34:05
Speaker 1
man. Okay, so, do you time in the 82nd, get out, or is that. Did you go to another unit after that? No.

00:05:34:06 - 00:05:40:17
Speaker 2
You know, I came back from Desert Storm. And if, you know, back then, the army was going from 18 divisions down to ten.

00:05:40:18 - 00:05:42:10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:05:42:11 - 00:05:57:14
Speaker 2
Army was saying, hey, there's not a, you know, the words like peace dividend were being used at the time and there weren't going to be any more wars for a while. So I'm like, I don't want to make a career sitting behind a desk in the Army. So I'm going to get out. So I went to the captain's course.

00:05:57:16 - 00:06:07:12
Speaker 2
I was able to get out early, and, go to get my MBA for free. And that's what I ended up doing. I was single, I had no plan, so I took that one.

00:06:07:14 - 00:06:10:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, looking back on and happy with the decision.

00:06:10:23 - 00:06:12:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:12:05 - 00:06:21:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. I want to go back just a little bit on the on the early days there. First, about your dad, did he ever talk about the wars and stuff like that when you were growing up?

00:06:21:21 - 00:06:29:20
Speaker 2
Nah. You know, I was nine when he died, so I. I don't have a foggy memory, you know, but I do remember him bringing us to parades and stuff, and he was really proud, you know.

00:06:29:20 - 00:06:35:21
Speaker 1
Was he? Yeah. Yeah. What was he, like, happy funny guy or serious dude? Yeah. Hilarious guy. Was he, my, all my.

00:06:35:21 - 00:06:41:06
Speaker 2
Uncles were hilarious old Italians, you know, and, Yeah. Yeah. Real fond.

00:06:41:06 - 00:06:48:11
Speaker 1
Memories. Yeah. Well, and with that level of legacy, I can't see why. So nobody forced you to get in the service? It was just around you.

00:06:48:13 - 00:07:05:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, I got out, I went to community college for three years to get my two year degree, and I was working after high school, and all my my buddies did either one of two things. They either went in the military, all the guys I hung out with in high school, or they became cops and firemen.

00:07:05:18 - 00:07:06:08
Speaker 1
Right.

00:07:06:10 - 00:07:21:03
Speaker 2
And I was the only loser. They didn't have a plan. And I had a girlfriend back then that kept me home, and I didn't want to, you know, and luckily I that ended. And when that end, I said, screw that, I'm behind. I'm going to go in military. Right. Which all my close friends did so that I decided late to do it.

00:07:21:08 - 00:07:21:15
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:07:21:20 - 00:07:28:12
Speaker 2
And then I applied for a two year scholarship, and got it. And then I finished, my four year degree.

00:07:28:12 - 00:07:43:19
Speaker 1
That way, when you're at the 82nd, just kind of giving folks a little bit of stage setting, I'll say this and then maybe just let me know if it resonates with you or not. When I was, you know, picking my unit or where I might want to go, my wish list or whatever. I had a mentor at the time.

00:07:43:23 - 00:08:03:02
Speaker 1
Officer, was like, hey, I because I thought I might just want to come back to Texas where I'm from, and a couple of units out here, heavier units. And one of the mentors I had, this officer was like, hey man, look for your first job out the gate. Pick something with a tab over it, either an airborne, a mountain tab.

00:08:03:02 - 00:08:19:14
Speaker 1
Just pick something there. It'll set the tone for the rest of your career. I didn't have an appreciation for any of that stuff, so I looked at the map and I was like, okay, that's four brigades, a Bragg one in Alaska, or one in, one in Italy. That was it. And so it was just like, pick one of those.

00:08:19:14 - 00:08:31:10
Speaker 1
You think if you pick one of those, then basically the rest of your career, you're fine? What did that does that sound right to you, or is that something that now looking back on it, that you were happy the 82nd was the first first place you went?

00:08:31:12 - 00:08:38:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. I'm absolutely thrilled when I found out. But I was shocked too, because there aren't a lot of armor officer slots.

00:08:38:21 - 00:08:41:05
Speaker 1
Totally. Right. Yeah, that's such a rare thing.

00:08:41:05 - 00:08:46:23
Speaker 2
It's pretty hard to get assigned there. Especially as an RTC guy, you know?

00:08:47:00 - 00:08:47:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:08:47:20 - 00:09:05:22
Speaker 2
So I was kind of shocked. And then the shock turned into a little bit of intimidation, like, I need to go hang with these guys, you know? And reputation is still pretty damn good. But, you know, back back when I went and it was pretty intimidating, you know, you got to the standards are pretty high. And, I'd already been to jump school, by the way.

00:09:05:22 - 00:09:24:23
Speaker 2
So I had done that. So I really didn't know what I was getting into, but I was in great shape back then. I was in the, Ranger PT program during my basic course and maxed out, so I wasn't really worried physically about it, but it was like, can I be a leader in this? You know what I'll call elite group that I'm about to go to?

00:09:24:23 - 00:09:36:09
Speaker 2
And, you know, the battalion commander at the time was the guy named Dana Dillon, who's a legend. He was the most highly decorated officer on, in and on the post at the time from Vietnam.

00:09:36:12 - 00:09:37:20
Speaker 1
Wow.

00:09:37:21 - 00:09:51:23
Speaker 2
And that that was going to be my battalion commander, like, he's passed away since, sadly. But in a couple of weeks later, he changed command. So I didn't serve that long under him. But, you know, just painting that picture. Here's where I'm going. Oh, crap. What's what's about to meet me, you know?

00:09:52:04 - 00:09:52:11
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:09:52:12 - 00:09:55:00
Speaker 2
Can I meet can I, can I meet the standard?

00:09:55:02 - 00:10:28:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. There's, there's definitely history behind every unit in the military, specifically in the Army. But I remember, and this is a guy like myself who has actually never been in the 82nd. I remember there's always a little special difference if you got assigned to brag. And if you got, you know, you know, assigned, to the 82nd to include, like commanders, commanders that took over battalion to brigades in the 82nd just seemed to be a cut above the rest or just seem to be, you know, that's like a special assignment.

00:10:28:00 - 00:10:48:00
Speaker 1
You know, it's not like not everybody gets that opportunity. And I suppose that's probably what this mentor of mine, you know, there's this, senior officer to the time men, like, what were some of the things when you were starting off as a brand new lieutenant and kind of leading in there? The just. And you didn't know any better, but what were the things that still are burned in you that you remembered learning or observing there?

00:10:48:01 - 00:11:07:04
Speaker 2
Oh, man, lots of things. You know, the old, you know, brand new lieutenant stories. You know, let's just get that out of the way, you know? But I you know, I will say one of the biggest lessons I learned was to lead. And, you know, actually, I was a leader for actually 27 months. We were talking about that earlier.

00:11:07:06 - 00:11:28:04
Speaker 2
I was assigned to, the Airborne Infantry Battalion as a tank platoon leader. And the way we were tasked, organized every battalion had an infantry battalion task force, and they had specialty platoon leaders. Was the tank platoon leaders. The engineer platoon leader was actually, the guy that just won the Senate seat in Pennsylvania. David McCormack.

00:11:28:07 - 00:11:28:20
Speaker 1
Really?

00:11:28:20 - 00:11:32:13
Speaker 2
That was my first junior platoon. Platoon. These are the kind of guys I.

00:11:32:13 - 00:11:33:23
Speaker 1
Hung out with. Yeah.

00:11:34:01 - 00:11:48:09
Speaker 2
And the third guy was from Texas. He was the air defense platoon leader. We call them Sundowner because when the sun went down, he never saw them. But, he was a guy from Texas, made a lot of money and oil and just decided that a lot of money just to serve his country. And he was crazy. He had really good parties, too.

00:11:48:11 - 00:11:48:21
Speaker 2
So, you.

00:11:48:21 - 00:11:51:08
Speaker 1
Know, he'd already made his money by doing an army.

00:11:51:08 - 00:12:08:23
Speaker 2
Just join Army to have fun. And he's crazy. I'm still friends with him. He became a mayor in South Carolina. That a really good guy. But anyway, you know, we were the specialty opportunities. And the task force commander, a guy named Linwood Bailey's one of the top mentors of my life. He told us you're not you're not moving.

00:12:09:04 - 00:12:30:20
Speaker 2
He called our battalion commander, said you're not changing platoons till I change command. So he had a two year command. So, anyway, with that as a backdrop, the first platoon sergeant I had was was not a but not to standard to be kind. And I won't go in the details, but for the first month or so, I was like, shut up, second Lieutenant.

00:12:30:20 - 00:12:45:18
Speaker 2
You know, you don't know shit kind of attitude, you know? And I did because I told that's what I'm supposed to do. But after about a month or so, I'm like, I didn't come here to sit in the back seat and watch what I thought were wrong. Things happening. Like, that's not why the Army prepared me for this role.

00:12:45:20 - 00:13:02:22
Speaker 2
So I, I said, hey, you know, I've been here about a month now, and, this isn't really working because the battalion commander had told me when I sat down, he goes, I got the best platoon in the battalion in the worst one open which one you want? I went, I don't even know. I was getting a platoon that day.

00:13:03:00 - 00:13:04:04
Speaker 2
And I said the worst one.

00:13:04:04 - 00:13:05:16
Speaker 1
Like you said, the worst.

00:13:05:18 - 00:13:25:22
Speaker 2
So I knew that going into it. And I said, and I told this guy, I said, this is, the choice I was made, and I he didn't put me down here to keep things the same. So one of us has to leave, and I just got here. So why don't you think about it? And I gave him the courtesy to work with the sergeant major and stuff, so he got reassigned.

00:13:26:00 - 00:13:30:22
Speaker 1
And just for folks who don't know, explain it. How would you explain what a platoon sergeant is to of a town leader?

00:13:31:00 - 00:13:55:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it's your right hand person, right? So, two leaders, the officer, a platoon sergeant, is usually an E7, noncommissioned officer, senior NCO in a platoon. We had five tanks back then, so I had 20 guys in my platoon. And, so their their your right hand person. So he gets reassigned, I get another guy who was, you know, retired on active duty kind of guy.

00:13:55:16 - 00:14:09:12
Speaker 2
Vietnam. That Vietnam combat patch. A rather intimidating back then. Right. But he was just so tired and beat up. And then he lasted about eight months. I had to let him go because we weren't performing with the infantry battalion.

00:14:09:12 - 00:14:10:06
Speaker 1
And yeah.

00:14:10:08 - 00:14:31:04
Speaker 2
Again, I have respect to the guy. But then I got this third guy, Sergeant First Class Gary Wilkerson, who approached me. This guy was like six five. He had literally had brain surgery, had a scar, been a drill sergeant, and he approached me. He goes, I'm paraphrasing him, but he basically said, I've been watching you. You know, I want to be a platoon sergeant.

00:14:31:04 - 00:14:44:17
Speaker 2
And I'd like to, you know, serve with you as your platoon sergeant. I said, please, went in, man, after he joined us, man, we we became one of the best platoons in the battalion by the time I left because of him.

00:14:44:21 - 00:14:50:12
Speaker 1
You know what is what is it about that having a good platoon sergeant that just changes the the fabric.

00:14:50:12 - 00:15:12:11
Speaker 2
And I think understanding your roles, you know, just having, like in business, right, when you have a management team, like, he was really good at details and discipline and setting the standard. One of the things, one of the many lessons I learned was some of the guys in the platoon that I thought were like, on the higher end of the dirt bag scale, relatively speaking.

00:15:12:11 - 00:15:30:06
Speaker 2
Right. We, they actually turned around when they had a good role model. They became one of my best soldiers. That's one of the biggest lessons I learned. You know, if you set the example, people will rise to that standard. And, he did that, and he was really good at that. And then he brought out the best in these guys.

00:15:30:06 - 00:15:46:17
Speaker 2
And then I was really good at planning and stuff. So I saved time of some of my guys because I kind of thought I had, and they appreciated that. So, they didn't have to do as much stupid shit as the other platoon. So it was a good combination of, yin and yang there, you know?

00:15:46:19 - 00:15:50:01
Speaker 1
Why do you think he picked you or. I think he wanted to come work with you.

00:15:50:03 - 00:16:14:20
Speaker 2
You know, if he hears us, he might be saying, I didn't pick that bastard, you know? But anyway, he kind of did. We had kicked it off right away because he had seen when I was going through. Yeah. And, and he was such a professional. He did approach me and I remember that conversation. But why? Because he is such a good professional and was till he retired that I think he always wanted the challenge and he appreciated what I was trying to do, you know, so it didn't happen overnight man.

00:16:14:20 - 00:16:24:18
Speaker 2
Like it was a lot of stress getting Apple tuned to a different level. I don't know why he did it, but I certainly, treasure the fact that he did it.

00:16:24:23 - 00:16:29:09
Speaker 1
Did you stay with you? Did y'all stay together basically the rest of your 27 months from there?

00:16:29:11 - 00:16:41:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. Kind of. I actually left before he did. Finally, he stayed with tune after, and then he became selected to be the NCIC of the Jumpmaster School in Fort Bragg. That tells you what kind of level he was.

00:16:41:11 - 00:16:42:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. He squared away.

00:16:42:14 - 00:16:47:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, yeah, he's like a poster child for an Army NCO, man.

00:16:47:07 - 00:16:48:00
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:16:48:02 - 00:17:00:06
Speaker 2
But we had other NCOs worth mentioning. Two, two NCOs out of that battalion became the senior enlisted noncommissioned officers to the, senior enlisted advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

00:17:00:06 - 00:17:02:00
Speaker 1
Wow, man. The rock star.

00:17:02:01 - 00:17:08:13
Speaker 2
Here of all the enlisted ranks, John Troxell and Joe Gagne. Joe Gagne, he's a local guy, by the way.

00:17:08:14 - 00:17:10:02
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:17:10:04 - 00:17:11:20
Speaker 2
I Joe Gagne was an E-7.

00:17:11:20 - 00:17:15:11
Speaker 1
Is what they named the Gagne Cub after. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:15:13 - 00:17:16:23
Speaker 2
He's around here to wow.

00:17:16:23 - 00:17:20:11
Speaker 1
I mean, yeah. And then and you had a lot of hitters in that unit.

00:17:20:13 - 00:17:22:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. And Troxel was an E-5 when I'm out of him.

00:17:22:19 - 00:17:25:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Company I remember Troxel yeah yeah.

00:17:25:05 - 00:17:52:08
Speaker 2
Yeah I still I went to his retirement ceremony. He's a great guy. But those guys with the caliber of NCOs who are in that battalion. Right. And then a guy named Roger Blackwood, who I'm dear friends with, who was a division command sergeant major and a regimental sergeant major for years over in, Afghanistan, Iraq, super leader, those guys, those particularly those three guys are just roll, you know, role models.

00:17:52:08 - 00:18:10:21
Speaker 1
And I learned a lot from them. What do you think is the as you delineate kind of noncommissioned officer, their leader like their leadership importance versus an officer's leadership importance. How do you describe not only that we talked a little bit about the relationship, but just how those independently mattered to an organization.

00:18:10:23 - 00:18:28:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a great question because that it's tough to answer unless you've been there. Right. There's a delicate dance that goes on and for for the viewers, maybe it will drill down a little bit on that. So the delegate dance like in that battalion, those guys, those NCOs spent a lot of years in that battalion because you have to learn the vehicle.

00:18:29:01 - 00:18:30:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. That grew up there, right. Yeah.

00:18:30:11 - 00:18:32:19
Speaker 2
They grew up there. And officers would come and go.

00:18:32:23 - 00:18:33:21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:18:33:22 - 00:18:53:04
Speaker 2
So that's you know, you were just in and out all the time. So the, those NCOs that I mentioned and others spent a lot of time there. They had a certain and I had never seen any of them act unprofessional to an officer. I really haven't. But as you know, if you do the wrong thing as an officer, NCO Mafia has a way of dealing with that.

00:18:53:04 - 00:19:14:04
Speaker 2
Right? So, you know, one example that people need to know is if you're a dickhead as an officer, right? And you say, hey, move those barrels from there to there, they'll like, say, well, sir, why don't you wait to move the barrels? Because here's 15 reasons why you shouldn't go. Nope. I'm the officer. Move those barrels. They'll go, okay, so you know, the as you know, they're still literally move the barrels exactly like you told them to.

00:19:14:04 - 00:19:33:04
Speaker 2
And then when the barrels, like, fall off the cliff or something because you didn't think about that, you know, they'll make sure that to remind you that it was your orders, that led to that. So anyway, that's just a stupid example of how they deal with officers that aren't really good leaders, you know? And that place, really chewed through leaders the 82nd at the time.

00:19:33:04 - 00:19:35:16
Speaker 2
If you sucked. Yeah. Like you were gone.

00:19:35:18 - 00:19:36:13
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:19:36:15 - 00:19:56:00
Speaker 2
Because, you know, 18 hour notice to go anywhere in the world. You can't afford to, like, develop people for too long. So you either performed or you were out as an officer, especially a junior guy. So there's a lot of guys walking around that served in the 82nd that actually have a bitter, bitter taste in their mouth. You know, speaking for my own battalion, you don't really like the experience.

00:19:56:00 - 00:20:05:05
Speaker 2
It wasn't really good because they were not they didn't meet the standard. But if you met the standard, you, you know, you you you know, it was a good experience.

00:20:05:10 - 00:20:22:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. They, I've, I've learned along those lines too, that, NCO soldiers, like, they want a good officer. You know, they want somebody they can be proud of. And it doesn't mean that's their buddy. Like their that kind of can get you a little bit of a ways. Like for some of the guys, I felt like they got in trouble.

00:20:22:12 - 00:20:43:18
Speaker 1
They became buddies with their guys. So the fun got to be around. But it still wasn't. It didn't seem sustainable to me. Like at some point when the metal hit them, you know, hit the meat, they also were necessary, trusting that he or she was going to make the right call. So it's his balance. You get a strike by being kind of like this older brother figure kind of holds the standard and the line on the mission, while also being like a really good partner.

00:20:43:18 - 00:21:01:02
Speaker 1
I think you're, I had asked I'd ask somebody one time, this guy was a little bit further ahead of me as a captain at a time. Like, how do you know when you're doing a good job? You know, how do you know you're doing a good job as a PL in this org? I guess you'll see it in the little things.

00:21:01:04 - 00:21:17:16
Speaker 1
I was like, what you mean by that? And it goes like like the boys save you some food or, you know, when you're on a chef call and you're running down to the gun tracks or you're getting ready to jump on the thing and they bring they bring your gear down. Yeah. That means that you're doing good. It means they want to take care of you.

00:21:17:19 - 00:21:29:01
Speaker 1
Point. Yeah. He goes if they don't do that. Yeah. As a matter of fact, if you get stuff messed up all the time because they're like going to move the barrels just to where you said, yeah, yeah, you're not doing good. Yeah.

00:21:29:03 - 00:21:34:03
Speaker 2
I would agree with that. I would absolutely agree with that. It's, it's it's a good story there.

00:21:34:06 - 00:21:54:06
Speaker 1
But it's like a it's kind of this I think the military, you were talking about it before here, John. It's like the military has a way of putting it feels like five years for every year of experience in this year. You called it a petri dish. Yeah. Like it's almost like it just shocks the leadership exposure so quickly.

00:21:54:08 - 00:22:09:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. About tough conversations, weird calls, human situations, all that stuff. Whereas like a normal 22 year old getting out of college, it might take them ten years before they manage one person. Yeah. And you're managing 20 to 30 to 40 folks right out the gate. Yeah.

00:22:09:16 - 00:22:29:22
Speaker 2
And we were talking about that earlier. And I think that's one of the precious things military service does for a future business person. It compresses those iterations, kind of like going to the gym, right? Like you're not going to get in shape going to the gym once you're going to become a good leader by practicing leadership. It's like practicing medicine, right?

00:22:30:00 - 00:22:49:20
Speaker 2
You never get as good as you could be. You have to practice it. And, the military, like, crunches that shit down pretty tight. Not only in formal schools, like even starting in West Point. Right? Like in ROTC, the basics of leadership and manuals on leadership. There's a manual on decision making. I've yet to see a manual in the civilian world on decision making.

00:22:49:21 - 00:23:11:22
Speaker 2
Right? And then you get drilled in your head and you apply it. But that that compression of leadership, testing and practice, I think is one of the jewels you take out. And when we talk to veterans a lot, like you and I do in what we do today, I tell them that I'm like, you are so prepared to run a business because you've got the heart thing nailed.

00:23:12:00 - 00:23:23:01
Speaker 2
You know, you've got this leadership and decision making thing is part of your DNA. And it you don't even think about it. And that is one of the absolute, in my opinion, the top thing you need to be successful in business.

00:23:23:04 - 00:23:47:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. It's like we were just catching up outside here with some of our teammates for rolling here on the pod. We're actually talking about operator selection. Like, how do you find the right person who's going to take over this business? And sure, there's like a tactical rap sheet, but there's also this other component that's, I don't know, I call it like physical courage, you know, and it's the military forces, you or you get kicked out to have tough conversations.

00:23:47:00 - 00:24:02:04
Speaker 1
You know, the boss will tell you very quickly, some colonel will go like or some captain will just tell you, like, hey, that guy's jacked. I will go fix it. You don't have a choice. There's no like, let me just send you a text or I'll go do whatever. Because literally ten minutes later, they, you know, like, did you have a talk in jail?

00:24:02:09 - 00:24:21:10
Speaker 1
I didn't get to it. Is you not like listening to orders? Go have that conversation. Go right now. And I think that's something that I think about guys and gals like who go take over a plumbing company where that workforce is blue collar, and they're not. They don't even they're not looking for some kind of robust system of communication.

00:24:21:10 - 00:24:36:22
Speaker 1
They're looking for the guy who's going to be there with a cup of coffee on the, you know, on the truck line in the morning, right, handing out where everybody is going and fixing problems in real time. Yeah. Why do you think it is that when we get out of the service, that almost feels like a thing that you want to shed?

00:24:36:22 - 00:24:45:09
Speaker 1
Like, I think that's just like a thing. You feel like you're not ready for the civilian world. This other thing doesn't apply. Why do we. What do you think folks generally feel that way?

00:24:45:11 - 00:25:07:12
Speaker 2
That's a great question. And you know, the several things I'll probably say today that pissed some people off. And this is one of them. But, you know, we get a lot of programs out there, well-meaning programs that try to take the product of someone getting out of the military and kind of dumb them down, you know, like, hey, you don't use these words anymore.

00:25:07:14 - 00:25:25:22
Speaker 2
You can't drop an F-bomb in meetings. You know, don't use acronyms. Put a suit on, you know, learn, learn how to write, like write in English on your resume and dumb down what you did so people understand it. I think we have an ass backwards, to be honest with you. I think what we should do is reverse that.

00:25:26:01 - 00:25:50:16
Speaker 2
Say, you know, the U.S. taxpayers have invested a gazillion dollars in these end CEOs and officers that succeeded as leaders like the precious national assets. And we can take that DNA and implanted in small businesses across the country. So let's like let them keep doing what they're good at, but surround them with civilians who, have had a lot of business experience.

00:25:50:18 - 00:26:07:19
Speaker 2
And I will tell you, in my first business, I felt guilty that I never hired a lot of veterans because I had one person quit 17 years. By the way, I'm kind of proud of that. Well, that's awesome. And I'm like, I'm an asshole. I don't have any veterans working for me. Right. But actually, I attribute the success I had in that first business.

00:26:07:19 - 00:26:25:21
Speaker 2
I had a management team that weren't, but they were really good business people. I had a CEO, a CTO, and I had a sales person that weren't. And together the experience I got from the military and implanted in that team and what they were really good at together, we were like an alloy, you know, one plus one equals three.

00:26:25:23 - 00:26:34:08
Speaker 2
And I think we should pay more attention to that. In this country, you know, and should be part of the strategy to get small businesses energized again.

00:26:34:13 - 00:27:00:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. And I think that's kind of where. You know, the you talk about the ass and taxpayer put in a lot of money and it's very akin to you had given an example earlier about the way we kind of train up athletes, you know, or something. There's so much rigor that goes into any job you and I have ever done in the service usually was preceded by 3 to 6 months of schooling.

00:27:00:10 - 00:27:11:01
Speaker 1
Every time it'd be like getting promoted at a company, but you got to go to school for six months first, then you come back. Yeah, I understand that a business, that's not how it works, but there is so much development that goes in.

00:27:11:01 - 00:27:19:12
Speaker 2
Think about officers, you know, years of college and either academy or ROTC and the summers and then the formal school.

00:27:19:14 - 00:27:19:20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:27:19:20 - 00:27:22:12
Speaker 2
And then you finally jump in the leadership's seat.

00:27:22:17 - 00:27:29:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Now it's quite a bit when you were when you were getting out of this, what was the first thing you did getting out of service?

00:27:29:14 - 00:27:33:13
Speaker 2
I went full time MBA for two years. How did you use a bouncer in a nightclub?

00:27:33:15 - 00:27:34:22
Speaker 1
What are you. Yeah.

00:27:35:00 - 00:27:37:02
Speaker 2
I wanted to meet women. I was 30 and.

00:27:37:04 - 00:27:40:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did,

00:27:40:20 - 00:27:42:17
Speaker 2
As the oldest bouncer in the place. Where are you?

00:27:42:19 - 00:27:47:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. How where are you going? To get your MBA.

00:27:47:11 - 00:27:48:16
Speaker 2
Back to Bryant, so.

00:27:48:19 - 00:27:49:14
Speaker 1
No way. Really?

00:27:49:14 - 00:27:56:13
Speaker 2
Six years later, I'm a loser going back on the same college campus I graduated from to get a full time MBA.

00:27:56:14 - 00:27:59:14
Speaker 1
So you're back to Bryant getting your MBA as a bouncer?

00:27:59:16 - 00:28:09:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I almost got kicked out because I still had that army mentality, paratrooper mentality. So I threw a party 30 days in and and yeah. Because we the.

00:28:09:11 - 00:28:10:07
Speaker 1
At the school.

00:28:10:07 - 00:28:23:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. The MBA, we were the first full time class. So they gave us one of the floors in the dorm to study. So we threw a party and, I was in the provost office about to get kicked out. But, anyway.

00:28:24:00 - 00:28:28:19
Speaker 1
You make it as well, so you get done with that. What was the idea that you get to go work some bigwig job?

00:28:28:19 - 00:28:46:05
Speaker 2
I had no idea what I was going to do. Yeah, I was scared, actually, because, like, a lot of it, I used to jump out of planes. You know, around and be around tanks and airborne infantry, you know, when the tanks were around it, like, what am I going to do? And I had no idea what I was going to do.

00:28:46:07 - 00:29:08:04
Speaker 2
So I figured, let me burn two years getting my MBA and, and I, and I thought I was a dumb ass and still do, but I didn't think I was smart enough to actually study and all that and get all the grades I needed to get an MBA. To be honest with you, it was just like a transitional thing for me to buy some time to figure out what I was going to do in, and allowed me to go back to Rhode Island, where I figured, well, I'm in, my family's there and stuff, right?

00:29:08:04 - 00:29:18:17
Speaker 2
So I had no idea what I was going to do. And then my career kind of bounced around and in the areas that I would have never expected. And I think that happens to most people. And I tell veterans managers, let it come to you, man little.

00:29:18:18 - 00:29:19:02
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:29:19:08 - 00:29:20:12
Speaker 2
Don't try to figure it out.

00:29:20:12 - 00:29:27:20
Speaker 1
Don't try to overthink it. What was the after after the bouncer gig? What was the thing you actually did is your first civilian private sector gig?

00:29:27:20 - 00:29:40:07
Speaker 2
I think the first real job I got was, I got I got hired by MetLife, you know, all the Surance company. Yeah. And, the guy that hired me never served, but he did time in ROTC when he was in college.

00:29:40:07 - 00:29:41:06
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:29:41:07 - 00:29:49:03
Speaker 2
And I think there were, like, 200 people and applied for this job I applied for. This is before the internet, you know, and I put in their resume and.

00:29:49:05 - 00:29:50:17
Speaker 1
And,

00:29:50:19 - 00:30:05:13
Speaker 2
I went for my first interview real quick, and it was a room like this. And the guy with a beard a mile long came in. His name's Joe McCarthy. I'm still good friends with him. And he was my screen interview guy. And he became, when I got the job, he was a peer of mine, but he was a lot older than I was.

00:30:05:13 - 00:30:24:23
Speaker 2
And I'm like, there's my first thought was, and I'm like, recently separated military guy. And I look at him walk in and I'm like, there's no way I'm getting hired. But we kind of hit it off. And I laughed, saying, oh, this is you know, I know I'm not. I didn't make it. And sure enough, I made it through his screening and I got the job by his boss that had some Army experience.

00:30:25:01 - 00:30:46:03
Speaker 2
Anyway, they hired me because they had they had this project that involved technology that no one could ever get done. So they figured, let's hire a military guy or gal. They'll come in and get this project done. So that's why I was selected out of all those people. And I got that job and that was great company. I was there for three and a half years, and, they were very good to me.

00:30:46:03 - 00:31:10:10
Speaker 2
And, got a lot done there after MetLife. Well, one of my vendors at the time when I was doing my thing at MetLife, it involved technology and training and stuff. One of my vendors had five vendors, and one of them was a company that, Paul Allen, the co-founder of Microsoft. It was the second company he started after Microsoft, as a company called asymmetric back then.

00:31:10:12 - 00:31:33:06
Speaker 2
And they were one of my five vendors or, I'll just keep it simple, a little more complicated than that. But anyway, they they recruited me because that asymmetric company wanted to go public, and they wanted to buy a bunch of companies and stitch them together to create this massive services organization. And they wanted me to come in there and lead that, you know, so they kind of gave me an offer.

00:31:33:06 - 00:31:52:10
Speaker 2
I couldn't refuse to do that. So I, I took that job and then I worked there for, a few years and, did just that, ten offices in three countries and 200 people working for me. You know, by the time I left and we had acquired six companies in six months. So I learned a lot about M&A back then.

00:31:52:12 - 00:31:56:01
Speaker 1
Did your MBA teach you anything about this stuff? No.

00:31:56:03 - 00:32:11:10
Speaker 2
Kidding. All kidding aside, I like I value my MBA, and that was good quality. Nothing against the school. But looking back now in my rearview mirror, everything I've diffused in business, I trace right back to the Army and really go all the way back to the 80s.

00:32:11:15 - 00:32:31:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, when you were at, when you were growing this company there, like, just for folks, kind of put folks in your shoes, what were the things you leaned on from your time in the service that maybe now you get clarity on, but maybe at the time wasn't as clear. But what were some of the skills or things that you kind of pulled from your old toolkit you learn at the 82nd?

00:32:31:04 - 00:32:53:23
Speaker 2
You know, it's just that tough to describe ability to know when to make a decision. You know, at least in airborne infantry, you know, let the situation develop. That's one of my favorite concepts. Like sometimes not making a decision is a good decision. Just let it keep rolling. Like, as you know, an airborne infantry, you're always outnumbered.

00:32:53:23 - 00:32:56:18
Speaker 2
So you let the enemy go by you and then you attack him for the rear.

00:32:56:23 - 00:32:58:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. Totally. Yeah.

00:32:58:01 - 00:33:20:22
Speaker 2
That mentality stayed with me. So when the shit was hitting the fan, I think a lot of people without that experience go, we got to do something, we got to do something and they do something. And oftentimes it's either a poorly timed decision or it's the wrong decision or both. So I think like that's an example of what got me through a lot of normal challenges with, any business that faces.

00:33:20:22 - 00:33:45:21
Speaker 2
Right. Another, another one of my favorite axioms is, you know, this is a time for democracy and a time for dictatorship. So, you know, sometimes a lot of inputs. Good. And that's what you should usually do. But eventually someone needs to make a decision, you know? And most of the time you're not going to make everybody happy. But, you know, I think that's what true leadership is, knowing how to blend those skill sets consistently over time so you can get through obstacles.

00:33:45:21 - 00:33:53:01
Speaker 2
And I think any military person who spent some time as a leader, knows how to do that, knows what I'm talking about.

00:33:53:03 - 00:34:13:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, you can feel it. So after you get done with your time there, MetLife. Yeah. Just, you know, company, one of your vendors that you kind of join. Then you do join and you work with them for quite some time. What was that? What happened after that? What did you start getting yourself now into this world of, you know, capital and small business are still still had other chapters in between?

00:34:13:16 - 00:34:13:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, I.

00:34:13:21 - 00:34:47:03
Speaker 2
Had one more phase before I started my first business worth mentioning. So I got my office was in need, a mass outside of Boston, and, I was the ops guys, you know, like the SEO guy. And I had ten offices, but my office was in Boston, and I had this big window in my office, and I'd see the parking lot, and there's these guys, Pete Laddoos one of them, Bob Birnbaum, the names you don't know, but the top sales guys in the company were worked out of that office, and I had, like, my Volkswagen Golf, you know, two kids at the time, and I had this piece of shit golf,

00:34:47:05 - 00:35:02:21
Speaker 2
and, I'd see him roll in with their BMW, right? Yeah. And I'm like, man, you got nobody working for you, and you're driving around in BMW. And then I used to go on sales calls with them. You know, you always roll out the ops guy in the last sales call to try to win the deal. So I got to know these guys.

00:35:02:21 - 00:35:23:22
Speaker 2
I'm still friends of Pete. But anyway, moral of that story was I really got enamored with sales. Like, is sales that hard? You know, and I didn't know. So long story short, I got a call from a recruiter to be the head of sales and marketing for a company up in Chicago, and I took that so I can ride, you know, in the saddle.

00:35:23:22 - 00:35:28:18
Speaker 2
As a sales leader, just to figure sales out. I'm so glad I did that.

00:35:28:18 - 00:35:29:12
Speaker 1
Really?

00:35:29:13 - 00:35:51:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I got hired for two reasons. One is to put lipstick on a pig and get sales in, because the second reason is they wanted to sell the company. And the experience I had in that, you know, with the Paul Allen Company, that's why I got hired. And we did that, I started that week before 911, which is not a good time to start as a sales V.P. in a small company.

00:35:51:17 - 00:35:59:19
Speaker 2
But sure enough, about a year later, we sold that company to an offshore company. And, it's at that point that I started my first company.

00:35:59:21 - 00:36:01:13
Speaker 1
What was the first company?

00:36:01:15 - 00:36:15:09
Speaker 2
It was a startup called Carly. We crush that name. Pretty soon they got me, Green Beret from Vietnam, who's still a good mentor and friend of mine. That's another long story. Funny, funny dinosaur guy.

00:36:15:09 - 00:36:17:15
Speaker 1
Really hilarious. You had to share one story.

00:36:17:15 - 00:36:37:13
Speaker 2
At least I got voicemails I could play a few later. Like, one of his things I learned from him is you got to believe in the golden rule, John. And I said, yeah, I know what the Golden rule is. Do unto others is doing it yourself, whatever the hell it is. He goes, no, John. The golden rule is he or she with the gold rules.

00:36:37:15 - 00:36:55:07
Speaker 2
And that is so true. But anyway, and we had a second partner who was not a veteran. He was my boss at the same company that took the sales job. We developed a relationship that was pretty good. He was a CEO. I was a sales guy. We sold the company together, and then we started the company with this military guy.

00:36:55:07 - 00:37:11:12
Speaker 2
Right. And he had all the pedigree, you know, he had all the Ivy League degrees and all that. He had worked at GE capital, and I don't want to get too specific, but, with the three of us started the company and then every challenge that could happen happened.

00:37:11:16 - 00:37:13:15
Speaker 1
Really? Yeah. It came along.

00:37:13:17 - 00:37:20:00
Speaker 2
That. Yeah, we can get into that. But one of them was that guy had to go away. We had to get rid of him.

00:37:20:05 - 00:37:24:01
Speaker 1
Which one? The CEO or that your old CEO or the or the Green Beret.

00:37:24:03 - 00:37:25:06
Speaker 2
Now they all see.

00:37:25:12 - 00:37:26:03
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:37:26:05 - 00:37:35:21
Speaker 2
So, you know, when I help, when work with business owners now, you know, I, I've, I think I've seen most of what bad shit can happen.

00:37:36:10 - 00:38:00:01
Speaker 2
Because over 17 years. And then we sold it 17 years later to a private equity firm. Every everything that could possibly go wrong had gone wrong over those 17 years. But we survived and made it to the end, you know? And I tell other military guys, look, you can do it, man. There isn't an obstacle. It'll come your way.

00:38:00:02 - 00:38:21:17
Speaker 2
Whether it's a bank calling or. No, I'm giving you 30 days to come up with the money or a partner that goes bad, or investors that are busting your chops all the time. You can get through that if you apply, you know, the basic tenets of leadership and decision making. And that's what got me through. And, with the mentorship of the Green Beret guy, you know, and, anybody can do it.

00:38:21:18 - 00:38:33:17
Speaker 1
Well, if you don't mind me asking, just probably helpful for folks out there, like when you decided, hey, we probably did part ways with the third guy here, what was the main driver culture thing, or was it,

00:38:33:19 - 00:38:54:08
Speaker 2
Over the years, my feelings for him have softened because he's a good guy. And he taught me something important we should talk about. He taught me how to raise money. So we'll get into that. He basically was taking money he shouldn't have taken from the company. And after raising a couple of million dollars in our series A, that didn't go over too well with the investor.

00:38:54:08 - 00:38:55:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm sure.

00:38:55:11 - 00:39:13:22
Speaker 2
And, so it was my duty at the time when we started the company, he was a CEO. I was the president, you know, I was the guy that had to deal with the aftermath. And then so now, now I had a bunch of pissed off investors that I had to deal with until I sold the company. And actually, and have to deal with him.

00:39:13:22 - 00:39:36:22
Speaker 2
And one of the lessons learned there for people watching is don't give away equity without an ability to get it back through an operating agreement for something, even if you're best buds going into business together, because it cost us about $80,000 in legal fees to get the equity back and untangle that. And it was such a distraction for a long time.

00:39:36:22 - 00:39:51:14
Speaker 2
Months. Right. You don't want to be in that situation. So are there there are techniques with writing in things, in the operating agreements. When you start out that allow easy exit and retrieval of equity. That was the lesson I learned there.

00:39:51:16 - 00:40:09:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's it's stuff you don't think about until you have to kind of endure it. Yeah. And then I feel like guys like you, the best thing you get from it is being able to share those stories with folks, because then they go, I hadn't even consider that. Yeah, you know, because I do think friendships are interesting.

00:40:09:22 - 00:40:25:11
Speaker 1
Especially when you're thinking about partnering with folks, you know, partnerships and those things. I'm curious what you think about. I know probably getting a little ahead of ourselves, but I think it's probably relevant when you think about partnerships. A lot of folks are like, why wouldn't I do it with somebody else, especially this guy or gal that's been my best bud for however long you know?

00:40:25:11 - 00:40:39:09
Speaker 1
I trust them implicitly. And so there's agreement, things that kind of come in between feel kind of yucky, like they don't feel right. Yeah. Any advice or any like maybe perspective you could offer about why it's still important to have something like that even with your closest.

00:40:39:09 - 00:40:56:08
Speaker 2
But yeah, for sure. I mean, it's like a prenup in a marriage, right? You're about to marry this person, and you got to bring up this thing called a prenup. It's the same thing, right? Like, I love you, and I trust you, you know? And. But it is so important. Why not do it? If everything goes hunky dory, you don't have anything to worry about, right?

00:40:56:08 - 00:41:17:13
Speaker 2
So. But, but let's just. What I see happening a lot is you. You can't forecast the future. So you go in. If you go in a business, what? You're two buds, you blow this stuff off and, you don't wish to some people, but let's just say partner number two, get sick or partner number two's drunk, hits a pole, gets arrested.

00:41:17:13 - 00:41:18:22
Speaker 2
Right?

00:41:20:09 - 00:41:43:07
Speaker 2
Or partner number three gets divorced. And the divorce attorney for the the spouse says, well, he or she deserves half of whatever the value of that company or their piece of the company. This stuff happens. So when you have to deal with those unexpected things, you never dream about having a good agreement upfront that would allow you to flex something within that agreement to deal with that is is the lesson here, right?

00:41:43:07 - 00:41:50:07
Speaker 2
You don't want it to happen, but there are some easy ways to do those that could accommodate almost every curveball that gets thrown at you.

00:41:50:12 - 00:42:08:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's almost a better way to maintain a friendship because that's right. Allows you to go like, here's the rules we're going to agree to play with. I value my friendship over. So if you do get a DUI one day in an impact business, you know, let's stay friends because it's weird. What can sour if you don't like you say it just drags on and on and on, you know?

00:42:08:13 - 00:42:22:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, as you were. So as you get that. But that company sold. What was the next step after that? Did you decide you're going to start something new again or what was the the idea behind that. Because you did for 17 years. Yeah. Wow man.

00:42:22:05 - 00:42:23:12
Speaker 2
Sold it in 2020.

00:42:23:16 - 00:42:24:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:42:24:10 - 00:42:26:06
Speaker 2
To private equity. That came out of nowhere.

00:42:26:09 - 00:42:29:02
Speaker 1
And, you didn't mean to sell it. Like, they just kind of said we.

00:42:29:02 - 00:42:55:06
Speaker 2
Weren't for sale or anything. They were doing a roll up of companies, and we were a software company, by the way. So they were doing a roll up, and, it's a long funny story, actually, but private equity firm out of Canada bought us, so, it's during Covid, too. So I was I was happy, I tell people I had to have the smile surgically removed from my face, because 17 years of, you know, the grind were gone.

00:42:55:07 - 00:43:15:21
Speaker 2
That wasn't about the money so much. It was. That was nice. But, you know, it's like, wow, I can breathe now. You know, you don't have that responsibility anymore. But I was a glutton for punishment and rolled into what I do now. But I do want to say, in 2013, which is in the middle of that ten year, me and another Army guy, guy named Mike horn.

00:43:15:21 - 00:43:41:17
Speaker 2
Career Infantry. Army infantry. Ranger. Dude. Good friend of mine to this day. We co-founded a nonprofit called vet to CEO back in 2000. 1213 oh. I'll leave it at that is technically 13, but we volunteered to teach a similar thing for the Kauffman Foundation in 2012 for free to veterans. So we took that experience and said, let's change this.

00:43:41:19 - 00:44:04:11
Speaker 2
And we changed it. And we created a program in 2013 for veterans, which is still our signature program. It's a business accelerator program. And that not nothing existed back then. There wasn't any boots to business. There were weren't IVF Warriors rising, you know, not nobody was around doing that back then. So we we were very proud of the fact that we kind of put the stake in the ground.

00:44:04:11 - 00:44:25:17
Speaker 2
We were still doing that. So that that was a whole separate business. I started with my nonprofit and I learned about nonprofits and all that stuff, and we're still running strong today. And then then I started full capital in 2020 after selling the other business. And we raise capital for companies and help people buy companies. We do buy side advising.

00:44:25:19 - 00:44:39:09
Speaker 1
With the, on the B2C side, kind of the whole premise behind that is kind of what we were talking about earlier, which is like, how do you get guys and gals who got all the right stuff and help coach train them to go become future leaders of private sector companies?

00:44:39:11 - 00:45:02:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm glad you asked me that because the the real thing, that sparked that was Mike, who has his own stories. He's a funny guy, too. It took us a decade. I told you my my decade on those jobs I had. It took me ten years for the light bulb to go off. Like I always thought I was a dumb ass former military guy around these civilians who were smarter than me.

00:45:02:11 - 00:45:23:12
Speaker 2
But after ten years of experience, I'm like, geez, this stuff is so easy. Why are we making it so difficult? Like, I felt like my military experience kept coming up over ten years. Like I really learned a lot. Like it shouldn't take a dude a decade for that light bulb to go off. So we the genesis of the program was let's get guys that are still even serving.

00:45:23:14 - 00:45:46:03
Speaker 2
And that's why we did it online from day one, even before it was cool to do that before Covid. Let's reach them online and get that light bulb to go off even while they're still serving so that, they don't have to work for ten years before they realize the value of that DNA we were talking about earlier, and how it applies to small business leadership, and let them so that that's the genesis of our program.

00:45:46:03 - 00:46:00:09
Speaker 2
It remains so it's designed that way. But, I don't know if I answered your original question, but it shouldn't take ten years to do that. So now there are multiple programs to do similar things. Yeah, it's great. And a lot more guys are getting into when guys and gals are getting into it.

00:46:00:15 - 00:46:15:09
Speaker 1
Is it mainly it's just primarily educational. And you know, you get guys and gals that come in, they get kind of, educated and knowledge up on what they need to do. And then you kind of send them out. Or do you also follow through with any kind of like placement type things?

00:46:15:11 - 00:46:35:12
Speaker 2
Depends which program. So have three programs real quick. The signature one is our business accelerator for veterans. That's an eight week cohort based, online program. It's got a live element to it. Two hours a week. I'll leave it at that. So that's our crown jewel. That's what we're known the most for. We've put over 10,000 people through that, by the way.

00:46:35:16 - 00:46:59:16
Speaker 2
Wow. And years. And we continuously improve it. We use modern day case studies and we have a guest speaker every week. So veteran I'm going to recruit you, by the way, a veteran who's been doing something in business or owns a business. So they hear from other veterans. But it's drinking out of a fire hose loosely mapped to the off board format.

00:46:59:18 - 00:47:01:00
Speaker 1
By paragraphs.

00:47:01:02 - 00:47:07:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's working really well. Yeah. We start with, like, marketing is our first module. It's a it's akin to situation, you know.

00:47:07:07 - 00:47:08:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's true. Yeah.

00:47:08:18 - 00:47:30:06
Speaker 2
And then we go into mission and you know, all that stuff. The second program is an MBA program that is just taken off. So we do a three week SCA program, you know, and no bullshit unvarnished. Here's how it really works. Stuff. We've got a lot of guys have bought companies and are buying companies coming out of that as a three week program.

00:47:30:06 - 00:47:32:08
Speaker 2
Our last cohort was 120 people.

00:47:32:10 - 00:47:34:04
Speaker 1
You know, man is a chunk of folks.

00:47:34:06 - 00:47:58:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because it's online, you know. Yeah. And then our most recent program is an AI tool that's on our website that Code.org. People are banging away at that. So we've taken our, our, 13 years of material and research, and that's what the AI tools sitting on top of. So it's not like ChatGPT. So you can ask it any question relating to veteran entrepreneurship.

00:47:58:19 - 00:48:02:12
Speaker 2
And it's given some really good answers. Yeah. Can I use out of that now.

00:48:02:16 - 00:48:10:06
Speaker 1
And so and so how does that does that tie back into what you guys do with poly capital or do you care that those two things relate at all.

00:48:10:08 - 00:48:32:13
Speaker 2
Very much tied together. So but not plan that way. And I feel kind of guilty about it sometimes for some reason. So when I started vet the CEO at Mike, I was running a software company. Had nothing to do with my day job. We were a B2B software play, boring stuff, but so I had this vet, the CEO stuff just because I felt passionate about helping fellow veterans out.

00:48:32:13 - 00:48:53:15
Speaker 2
And so did Mike. So that's what started it. He had a manufacturing firm in Ohio, by the way, and still does, in a couple of franchises, you know. But he and I started it for that reason. We never made a dollar on it. We funded it through our companies and all that stuff. Right. Today, though, to answer your question, I raise capital for companies and I help people buy companies.

00:48:53:15 - 00:49:00:10
Speaker 2
So almost all my clients are veterans because they spill out of these other that the CEO programs.

00:49:00:12 - 00:49:01:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:49:01:14 - 00:49:15:04
Speaker 2
And I feel weird all the time. So I don't want it to feel like I'm trying to sell them something when they're taking the free. But, you know, nonprofit programing oil. By the way, would you like to buy my service? You know, so I let them come to me. But that's how most of our clients come to us.

00:49:15:04 - 00:49:25:02
Speaker 2
They spill out of one of those programs. They go, hey, I need a raise capital or hey, I'd like to buy our company. I'd like to sign up for your buy side advisory. So we go, okay, that's what we want to do, you know?

00:49:25:03 - 00:49:40:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, I just kind of worked out that. I mean, it sounds like a, a helpful synergy there. What you went back to in your, the guy that you have any part ways. We're talking a lot about raising capital. Oh, yeah. What was that? Obviously, it's an important part of what you do now.

00:49:40:23 - 00:49:57:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, there is no school for raising capital. I don't care what anybody says. And I don't care what school you've been to. Like, I don't give a shit. You've gone to war and or whatever. You do not know how to raise capital. It's like this big secret. I have a black belt in it now. But when I started our business, I had a white belt.

00:49:57:17 - 00:50:16:21
Speaker 2
I didn't know jack shit, and this guy would get up in front of investors because he worked for Jigga and he was my age. Like my jaw would be on the table. Like, this guy's talking a language. I have no idea what he's saying. And I'll be like this watching his pitch. And I'm like, but he convinced a bunch of very smart guys to invest in us, and I was blown away by that.

00:50:16:21 - 00:50:37:05
Speaker 2
And to his credit, right. Because 2% or less of people to pitch to angels and VCs actually get funding. That's a pink elephant in the room, stat. Nobody talks about. Right? So we were lucky to be part of the 2%. And to his credit, he he pull that off and then he got in trouble. So I had to now grab the baton and figure that shit out.

00:50:37:11 - 00:51:01:05
Speaker 2
And so he had to raise more capital. I had a deal with the banks. I had to take all that over. And that's how I learned by doing so. Now, what I try to do is not only teach it a piece of it in our programs and, you know, the no bullshit stuff about it, but also day to day working with our clients where we're really helping them deal with the realities of capital, whether it's investors or banks.

00:51:01:06 - 00:51:06:05
Speaker 2
And it's a it's a tough road, man. And, you can only learn it by doing it.

00:51:06:07 - 00:51:10:08
Speaker 1
What is something that.

00:51:10:10 - 00:51:21:18
Speaker 1
Like what's something that is, do you want to call or a special ingredient to raising capital that just blow your mind? But after you know it now, it's something that you're like. It's such a core piece to doing. Right?

00:51:21:20 - 00:51:23:03
Speaker 2
I'll give you one good one.

00:51:23:03 - 00:51:25:03
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:51:25:05 - 00:51:44:22
Speaker 2
Rookie entrepreneurs, which I was one one. So I'm not being demeaning, but, I see it all the time. They get all caught up in valuation right? You know, it's them and their dog in their garage. They don't have a product, but they're worth $10 million. Right. And and then they laugh. They go, wow, these investors are stupid.

00:51:44:22 - 00:51:50:11
Speaker 2
They believe that we're worth 10 million. They're going to give me 2 million, right? To do my proof of concept. And I hear that, like.

00:51:50:12 - 00:51:52:05
Speaker 1
A lot.

00:51:52:07 - 00:52:16:12
Speaker 2
That to me that there's a danger sign because where the investors are going to get you are on the deal terms, liquidation preferences, rights over certain decisions. You know, standard equity, experienced equity investors demand certain terms that look innocent in the early days. They look innocent because most of the time an entrepreneur doesn't know how it works. They don't know what they mean.

00:52:16:12 - 00:52:35:15
Speaker 2
I didn't when I first well, when my, partner was doing, I had no idea what the hell the term sheets that I it's like a foreign language, but the investors typically are going to let you win the valuation battle thinking you laugh all the way to the bank, but where they get you is on the terms. And I can get into the weeds on that.

00:52:35:15 - 00:52:48:20
Speaker 2
But look, the investors are going to get paid first. They're going to get their money back first. And regardless of whatever valuation you agreed on. Yeah. So that's like an example of one of the things you only learn by doing.

00:52:49:00 - 00:52:54:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. Going in there gunslinging with valuation and down on that hill is probably a way.

00:52:54:09 - 00:52:55:03
Speaker 2
To my thinking.

00:52:55:04 - 00:52:56:09
Speaker 1
One yeah, they might have.

00:52:56:09 - 00:52:58:07
Speaker 2
Won the battle. But you're not winning the war, pal.

00:52:58:07 - 00:53:16:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, we tell you that. Do you find it? Just as you you know, I'm thinking about the folks who tune in to hear from a from a presence perspective, kind of thinking about my time in the military. I don't know what it is me, but any time here at the company, one of our values is shoot through, shoot straight.

00:53:16:16 - 00:53:34:07
Speaker 1
And there's something about in our time in the service, any you call somebody a straight shooter is like a big compliment. Part of me, just because there's like a there's a discernment and wisdom in what they're saying, but they're very direct about it. Yeah, they find it. It also works in raising capital when you're trying to pitch what you're trying to do and whatever that you feel like.

00:53:34:11 - 00:53:40:01
Speaker 1
The more you are like that, because I feel like there's a lot of lipstick on a pig. People try to do.

00:53:40:03 - 00:53:59:23
Speaker 2
No, you know, it's a passion and topic of mine because it's what I do every day, right? It's why I do what I do. I could have retired when I sold the company, but I'm so passionate about this idea of capital and veterans, especially in that blend that you're touching on. You know, really a good question. But,

00:54:00:01 - 00:54:20:14
Speaker 2
I think what I want to say in response is we need to think differently going forward about investors. Investors are great Americans, and I don't mean to be demeaning in any way. Like remember the golden rule, he or she with the gold rule. That is so true in this country, and it has been since the Great Depression and has to do with the securities Act of 1933.

00:54:20:14 - 00:54:40:04
Speaker 2
And I want to I going to bore you with that. But when you look at what's happened with securities law in the private markets, the rich people just keep getting richer because they know the game. Right. And there's nothing wrong with rich Americans are great Americans. But that game, like there's no course you could take to learn it.

00:54:40:06 - 00:54:49:23
Speaker 2
You just got to do it. And, guys like us gals, like, especially military people, we we've never played that game.

00:54:50:02 - 00:54:50:13
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:54:50:15 - 00:55:05:10
Speaker 2
So there's a huge mismatch of culture. Straight shooter, you know. And you get money people. And yeah thank you for your service. And you know and and meetings they're like hey yeah you flew fighter jets. So that's cool or.

00:55:05:10 - 00:55:06:09
Speaker 1
You what's up.

00:55:06:09 - 00:55:15:00
Speaker 2
Platoon. You know, or you know there's that respect. But then there's that misunderstanding on both sides and that's not productive.

00:55:15:02 - 00:55:16:06
Speaker 1
And

00:55:16:08 - 00:55:37:20
Speaker 2
For a veteran, it's really challenging to win over investors because they look at you and they say, thank you for your service while they're meeting with you, and they mean it. But when you leave, they go like I used to jump out of planes behind tanks. What the hell does he know about technology? You know, and it is what it is, and it is what it is.

00:55:37:20 - 00:55:57:13
Speaker 2
So I think the opportunity I don't want to be, you know, negative. What gets me jacked is we need to think differently about where our investment comes from, especially if you're a veteran. And let me give you my vision for that place. You know, less than 2% of us serve today, right? So there's a lot of veterans.

00:55:57:13 - 00:56:21:12
Speaker 2
So it's maybe it's 9% of America served at one point. But what if we just banded together and use the internet, to generate wealth as a tribe? What if those of us that have a few bucks takes a guy like you trying to raise cap and go? You know what? I know his background. I trust him, and I want to make an investment.

00:56:21:12 - 00:56:40:09
Speaker 2
I want to invest in that private company led by that dude right there, because I want to build his wealth, make him successful in doing so. I'm going to make a few bucks. Right? Wouldn't that be great if we can put a big net around that? That is trillions and trillions of dollars that we could unleash for veteran owned businesses if we could figure that out?

00:56:40:12 - 00:56:58:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think you're I think you wouldn't be alone in that vision. I know you're not. I think that's one of the is one of the things I daydream about too, is we're helping operators, new owners get into the seat. In a world before this, I spent a lot of time and, kind of the real estate development and raising world.

00:56:58:03 - 00:57:17:22
Speaker 1
That was kind of a chapter of my life. Learned a lot about just all that world, to your point, went from jumping out of airplanes to being like, what is the cap structure? And how does that document and what is the subscription? You know, like all those things. And just like I thought, a subscription is for Netflix and realize it was like, you know, there's other agreement, you know, so I learned a ton about that.

00:57:18:00 - 00:57:37:03
Speaker 1
But the one thing that I recognize is kind of golden rule thing, at the end of the day, we were just to help, like people who gave us money or we, I would say, are we earned their trust to give us money, didn't need more money. They just. And I I'm a capitalist for sure, but they're really just like, if they didn't invest in anything else, they'd be just fine.

00:57:37:08 - 00:57:53:19
Speaker 1
And again, I support the American dream. Be as wealthy as you possibly can, keep pushing. But at the end of the day, when you get hurt, their feelings are not, you know, so they were very picky about what the returns needed to be. And one of the things we talk about here is like a daydream that I personally have.

00:57:53:19 - 00:58:12:22
Speaker 1
So along with your vision is I want to get to the point where whether it's with veterans or former athletes or just good young Americans coming up where they have this ability to we have the ability to talk to a group of investors who want to invest in the future of America and literally just blatantly tell them this is probably where you're not going to make the most money in the world.

00:58:12:22 - 00:58:34:04
Speaker 1
Like if you wanted higher returns, there are other places to do it. But if you want to actually be embedded in the fabric of this country and know that beyond your life that it's in good hands and that it's like you can contribute to that, this is a place you should come. Like you should definitely invest in that veteran who can run that blue collar shop and let you know that it's going to take care of this community.

00:58:34:06 - 00:58:53:01
Speaker 1
That rhetoric is tough because over many years, that's just not been I mean, you nailed it. There's a lot of just smiles and like, yeah, I think you're a good dude, John. But at the end of the day, you know, they don't have to play this game with. Yeah. And so there becomes kind of no sense of mission with it even though they appreciate what you do.

00:58:53:03 - 00:59:19:10
Speaker 1
So I'm very aligned with that. I'm curious what you think as we I'm amazed at our blue by Fast John as we kind of close out like what's your what's your daydream? I don't know how long you want to keep doing follow and everything else that you're doing now, but probably two things. And on one, just like, what's your daydream over the next decade and what you're building and ultimately, I mean, you say you don't have to, but I'm curious, like diving into the passion a little bit more.

00:59:19:10 - 00:59:26:16
Speaker 1
I'm curious what keeps you taking on that specifically in the veteran community, but maybe start with that first one there. Just what's your daydream over the next decade?

00:59:26:18 - 00:59:42:18
Speaker 2
Well, my daydream is to like, get off my ass and do something about the problem. Like, I hate people, a bitch about something, and I do it. So I like to count myself as one of the doers and like getting back to what I said. A few minutes ago, the light bulb in my head went off maybe 3 or 4 years ago.

00:59:42:18 - 00:59:59:17
Speaker 2
Because of that, the CEO, I would go present to banks and all these people that go, we love that orange. You know, we're going to support veterans through vets, you know. Oh, great. Great. You go talk to him. You know, glazed eyes don't know what the hell we're talking about. Think we're arrogant you know don't get it. Because one of the things is we have a we have the benefit of comparison.

00:59:59:17 - 01:00:03:15
Speaker 2
Right? Like you've been in the military. I've been. And we know we're talking about when we tell our stories.

01:00:03:15 - 01:00:04:15
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:00:04:16 - 01:00:22:10
Speaker 2
Civilians don't. There's nothing against them. They just don't have the basis of comparison. Right. So they'll they'll take our word for it, but they don't really get it. Right. So that light bulb for me went off a few years ago. I'm like, why are we killing ourselves trying to convince most people in America what the special things are that we've just talked about for the last hour?

01:00:22:10 - 01:00:40:15
Speaker 2
And not to sound like cocky people, but like, why don't we put more energy in the talking to each other and go, hey, look, let's build wealth together, man. We raised our right hand. We were willing to give our life to our country. We understand each other. Let's band together and build wealth together. Right. And I would challenge you.

01:00:40:15 - 01:01:04:19
Speaker 2
You said something a minute ago. I think we can have both. I think we can build tremendous wealth. We don't have to, like, take discounted returns because, you know, the average return on a private equity or a venture portfolio angel is 30%, right? That's what they shoot for. So we're tickled pink as non-accredited, normal people getting 10% out of our 400 and k year professional investors looking for 30.

01:01:04:21 - 01:01:09:07
Speaker 2
You know, why don't we shoot for like 18, 20, you know, which is would make most people.

01:01:09:07 - 01:01:11:11
Speaker 1
Happy real happy.

01:01:11:12 - 01:01:29:09
Speaker 2
So there are ways to do that. That's that's my dream. Like coming up with a scalable template ties to way to allow people to easily participate in that as investors and easily for veterans to plug into that for their capital. So that that's kind of what keeps me going every day.

01:01:29:11 - 01:01:47:23
Speaker 1
And why why what? I mean, this kind of leads in that second part, I on the on the veteran side, how do you give what is your non act like you're not a veteran, which I know that's hard to do. But if you are going to best describe it to our dear civilian friends out there, why that's a good jockey to bet on.

01:01:48:03 - 01:01:54:08
Speaker 1
Generally speaking, not all of them are great, but the ones that are great are like really great. Why?

01:01:54:10 - 01:02:13:16
Speaker 2
It has nothing to do with how close to Rambo they were or what kind of a badass they were, or if they were a soft guy and all that. That drives me crazy to be honest with you. To all my soft guys out there, which I deal with, a lot of them. Look, man, it came what we started with this, this interview with was decision making and leadership and reps.

01:02:13:16 - 01:02:33:03
Speaker 2
If there's one thing a civilian should just think about is that point. And it doesn't matter if you were in a conventional unit or whatever, if you were a leader and you made decisions over and over again and and you were, you can prove that you succeeded. And how can you prove that through your do your military records, you own your residential yards, right?

01:02:33:05 - 01:02:54:13
Speaker 2
I, I was a platoon sergeant, and I was really good at it. So they made me a first sergeant. Then they made me a sergeant major. Right. A command sergeant major. You don't promote idiots into those positions because you know the pyramids like this. So we should for civilians to say, look, we actually have something on our website, called a dip score.

01:02:54:15 - 01:03:18:14
Speaker 2
Check it out. We're actually trying to deal with this. So what if we had a score akin to a credit score, that it was a number that represented the higher the number, the better. That was based on some algorithm based on your military experience. And I can dig deep, but we don't have time. But what if we had a score that said, oh, that guy's got a 680 dip score?

01:03:18:16 - 01:03:32:21
Speaker 2
I have no idea what the hell he did in the military, but that's a pretty high score. Yeah. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah. Just like a credit score says you're a dirtbag or you're not. Right. Whether you like the algorithm or not. But we live with a credit score. So what if we had something similar coming out of the military?

01:03:32:21 - 01:03:36:07
Speaker 2
I think it's easy to do. We got we worked on that. It's on our site.

01:03:36:12 - 01:03:45:13
Speaker 1
Is it also proprietary scoring? Yeah. So what does it stand for? Is it an acronym duration?

01:03:45:15 - 01:03:56:14
Speaker 2
Intensity and performance. Yeah. I picked this. How many months did you have the leadership job? What kind of, what kind of intense environment were you in? That's still a debatable one.

01:03:56:19 - 01:03:57:11
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:03:57:13 - 01:04:06:13
Speaker 2
And, were you above average? Average or below average? Yes. In your NCO hours. Are those three things? Multiply them together, add them up, you get a score.

01:04:06:15 - 01:04:09:07
Speaker 1
That's very neat. Yeah. And yeah.

01:04:09:09 - 01:04:10:16
Speaker 2
Documented.

01:04:10:18 - 01:04:35:15
Speaker 1
Well, I think you're right. I mean that's a really thanks for articulating that. That's a really clear way to I think that is the hard part. You can get kind of romantic about it all. But some of the best folks we meet sometimes are or some former signal NCO that just ran a great shop and or some, maintenance officer that you probably want that person running your manufacturing facility, you know what I mean?

01:04:35:15 - 01:04:38:06
Speaker 1
There's something just unique about the way they do things.

01:04:38:08 - 01:04:54:16
Speaker 2
So real quick, we love acronyms, right? Dip is the shorthand name. Yeah, but it's really stands for duration. Intensity performance score for Heroes in Transition. Dipshit. So what's your dipshit score.

01:04:54:18 - 01:05:17:23
Speaker 1
With that man job, man? What? And I can now, we got for folks who are not going to be able to join us through the to the radio waves here. You know, we got a great event this evening, and we're going to have at least 60 warriors show up to this thing, I think. And one, thank you for helping us put that together into, and more folks talking about it, not from a charity case perspective.

01:05:17:23 - 01:05:34:00
Speaker 1
That's stuff that I think rubs me wrong is Amy Adams. Yeah. I don't, you know, I, I don't need you to be a crutch for me or for us. If anything, warriors used to leave the tribe, go do the work, come back and lead their tribe when they get back. And there needs to be no hand out there.

01:05:34:00 - 01:05:44:02
Speaker 1
And I think an event like this evening that you're helping, we're going to get some aspiring owners and current owners together and talk about it. Just appreciate you being here, making the 1400 mile trip and exchanging some words with us today.

01:05:44:08 - 01:05:48:20
Speaker 2
Well, look, thanks for putting up with me and, inviting me. It means a lot. So, appreciate it.

01:05:48:21 - 01:05:51:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Well, safe travels back and appreciate the time.

01:05:51:23 - 01:05:54:12
Speaker 2
All right. Thanks, man.

01:05:54:12 - 01:06:20:18
Speaker 1
Thanks for tuning in to the American Operator Podcast, where we celebrate the backbone of America small business owners and operators like you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so you'll never miss out on more of these stories and insights from people who keep our community strong. Until next time, keep building, keep operating and keep America moving forward.