An Irish Immigrant Protects America's Most Beautiful Land I Ken Murphy I 40

What happens when an Irish river guide turns his passion for adventure into a small business empire in the Colorado mountains?

Ken Murphy, founder of Adventure Outdoors in Eagle, Colorado, shares how a one-way ticket to the U.S. turned into a lifelong pursuit of freedom, grit, and entrepreneurship. From ski lifts to whitewater rapids, Ken built a career around recreation — and then transformed that passion into a thriving multi-business operation connecting rafting, horseback riding, ATVs, and outdoor tours across the Rockies.

In this episode, Ken talks about the real business behind the outdoor industry — managing risk, evolving with technology, balancing tourism with conservation, and keeping the “small” in small business. He’s built a model that not only fuels adventure but helps revive Main Street economies across mountain towns in America.

Real stories. Real ownership. Real lessons from the field.
 This is American Operator.

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Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:15
Speaker 1
Hard work. Real talk. No shortcuts. I'm Joseph Cabrera. This is American operator.

00:00:09:15 - 00:00:25:10
Speaker 1
all right, team? I am here with can Murphy venture outdoors in a very unique place? We are not in studio in Austin, Texas. We are surrounded by beautiful mountains and a fireplace. And, I don't know, it's probably 62 degrees right now.

00:00:25:10 - 00:00:31:19
Speaker 1
It it feels absolutely perfect. With sun shining in the mountain. Air in. Man. So good to have you here with us today. Yeah.

00:00:31:21 - 00:00:32:19
Speaker 2
No, it's great to be here.

00:00:33:00 - 00:00:56:21
Speaker 1
Well, I'm stoked to get into a lot of things, but I think let's kick it off with probably, the most important question that folks listening in are going to ask, first off the bat, which is this is the you're the first guy thing we've ever had from Ireland on the show. And if you maybe we had other folks from Ireland or they have had, you know, family and ancestors from there, you know, whatnot.

00:00:56:22 - 00:01:13:05
Speaker 1
But it is clear when talking to you can you are you are from the, from the great place that they make a lot of great movies and a lot of great folk songs about and whatnot. Can you tell us a little bit about how a guy like you leaves the greenest place I've ever seen in my life to come here to mountain, Colorado?

00:01:13:07 - 00:01:34:17
Speaker 2
Well, long story short, I went to university in London. Okay? And I wanted to study sports science. And I knew with a sports science degree, this is early 90s place he wanted to come to where the careers were. Was America, you know, professional sports. This was the home of it.

00:01:34:17 - 00:01:35:08
Speaker 1
That was globally.

00:01:35:08 - 00:01:49:06
Speaker 2
And that was globally enough. I mean, it wasn't big in Europe. It wasn't, you know, professional sports was why it was where it was. And then, I was lucky enough I applied for the lottery green card and won.

00:01:49:06 - 00:01:52:11
Speaker 1
The lottery was a lottery. They had, like, literally.

00:01:52:11 - 00:02:11:00
Speaker 2
There's a lottery for a green card, and you would apply and you just. And then you'd go for an interview at the U.S. embassy, and you'd explain the reason why you wanted to move to America. And I was in university at the time in London, and I was speaking to the gentleman at the, at the embassy, and I was like, I'm a student.

00:02:11:02 - 00:02:36:06
Speaker 2
Definitely want to go there. And, they said, you know, if you come every summer, to show us you really want to be here while you were a student will honor that that green card offer. So every summer I came to the East Coast and worked in tourism, worked in Boston, worked in New Hampshire, worked in Nantucket and did the summer job, you know, and then I go back to London.

00:02:36:09 - 00:02:37:03
Speaker 1
For the jobs.

00:02:37:05 - 00:03:06:03
Speaker 2
Oh, I did, I worked on a sailing boat in Nantucket. I worked on a fishing boat, Nantucket. I worked in an amusement park carnival up in New Hampton Beach, New Hampshire, and I did that for a number of summers. I was a perpetual student for a while there. And then, as soon as I graduated, literally set my last exam following day, jumped on a plane, arrived in Boston, and, did one final summer of tourism, in Nantucket.

00:03:06:03 - 00:03:23:03
Speaker 2
And then I got a job with the center for the Study of Sport out of, Northeastern University there, and was doing that love and love and being involved in American sports. And yeah, it was really cool. Job came out to Colorado for a week ski trip.

00:03:23:05 - 00:03:24:18
Speaker 1
And just on a whim, someone.

00:03:24:18 - 00:03:41:16
Speaker 2
Just on a whim. I kept walking past magazines in Boston and seeing the old ski magazines and thinking of skiing and, I mean, we don't have any snow in Ireland and, you know, never knew much about. But skiing. And it came out here for a week and I thought, wow, there's more to America than the East Coast. That's all I'd seen.

00:03:41:16 - 00:04:01:19
Speaker 1
Hey, y'all, real quick. Check it out. This show, if you like it. Well, we like you. I'd love for you to give us a rating and a review. We read every comment, whether it's on Apple or Spotify. And here's the real reason why it helps other Americans out there who are chasing their dream. Hear this message. And if you got a friend that you think could use a little inspiration in some of these words, hit with you.

00:04:01:22 - 00:04:04:19
Speaker 1
Please share this with them. All right. Back to the show.

00:04:04:19 - 00:04:24:02
Speaker 2
I remember calling my folks and saying, I'm quitting my job, and I'm moving to Colorado. And they were like, what are you going to do? I said, no idea. And I went back to Boston, walked into my boss's office and said, you know what? Colorado was epic. And the snow and skiing and the whole thing. It was awesome.

00:04:24:08 - 00:04:29:17
Speaker 2
And he was such an awesome boss. He was like, I wish I had done what you're going to do right now.

00:04:29:17 - 00:04:30:16
Speaker 1
Oh, really? He said.

00:04:30:21 - 00:04:56:01
Speaker 2
You want to come back? There's a job here for you, but go for it. I fully support it. Got his blessing. Was easy to leave the job when the boss was in support of what you were doing, and, flew out to the old Denver International Airport or Stapleton Airport. And I was on my way to steamboat, and I was going to, go to steamboat, get a job, figure it all out.

00:04:56:01 - 00:05:08:00
Speaker 2
And I'm sitting beside of a guy in the plane and he said, what do you do? And I said, I'm going to stay, but what are you going to do? No idea. He says, now, you don't need to go to steamboat. You need to go to Breckenridge. Breck. I never even heard of Breckenridge. And I said, how do you get to Breckenridge?

00:05:08:00 - 00:05:16:11
Speaker 2
And he was like, oh, when you come out of the airport, there's a company that actually says Vans to Breckenridge. And I'm like, okay, so I got out of that airport.

00:05:16:11 - 00:05:17:05
Speaker 1
What did you have? Just a.

00:05:17:05 - 00:05:32:11
Speaker 2
Bag. I just had a backpack, that's all. I had a backpack on my back and I got on the vans to Breckenridge, jumped up beside the driver because I was on my own, didn't sit in the back and, you know, and and drivers, like, where are you going? And. No idea. Drop me somewhere. Like, is there a hostel?

00:05:32:11 - 00:05:54:23
Speaker 2
Is there this. So the driver dropped me at a place in Breckenridge that seemed to be like a hostel kind of place. Yeah. And, went in there, got a bad met a bunch of people who were similar to myself, who were moving to a ski area trying to find housing, trying to do all that. And, got a job for the at the ski resort, became a lefty.

00:05:54:23 - 00:05:59:08
Speaker 2
It's like, I think a rite of passage of when you don't know anything better, you become a lefty.

00:05:59:08 - 00:06:00:14
Speaker 1
Can you? For folks who don't know what a.

00:06:00:14 - 00:06:03:19
Speaker 2
Lefty is, it's putting seats on chairs to send them up the mountain to.

00:06:03:19 - 00:06:05:03
Speaker 1
Do that to that person over.

00:06:05:03 - 00:06:33:23
Speaker 2
There at the shepherding on line and them up. Yeah. And, did that for a winter and, loved it and loved the skiing and got into it and then met a bunch of, Americans there who at the end of the ski season, they were like, you know, what are we going to do? And I said to them, you know, I've just done 4 or 5 summers in Nantucket as a student, why don't you all come back to Nantucket?

00:06:33:23 - 00:06:49:16
Speaker 2
So I did the seasonal thing, which seems to be the the thing back then was, you know, so I did the ski resort, and then I go to Nantucket for the summer, came back to Breckenridge for the following winter, met my wife there, and skiing.

00:06:49:16 - 00:06:50:01
Speaker 1
Or something.

00:06:50:05 - 00:07:06:14
Speaker 2
Had no matter at a bar. Okay. I got her at a bar and, chatted to her and said to her at the time, I'm like, you know, I had this plan that I always wanted to travel to, but I went straight from college into the job and, you know, and I always had in the back of my mind, I'm going to travel.

00:07:06:17 - 00:07:20:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I said to her, you want to go see the world and backpack? And she was like, yeah, why not? We weren't. We were only dating. And the fact that she met this strange Irish guy who said, do you want to go see the world? So are.

00:07:20:01 - 00:07:20:23
Speaker 1
You at that first day at.

00:07:20:23 - 00:07:25:13
Speaker 2
The bar? No. And and literally as we were dating, we weren't dating. We said this was February.

00:07:25:16 - 00:07:26:13
Speaker 1
Sound like.

00:07:26:15 - 00:07:43:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, come October, we had saved enough money and we took off for a year around the world, came back, and then we were like, all right, is it time to get serious? What are we going to do with our lives? And, both of us said, we love Colorado. Let's go back to Colorado.

00:07:44:01 - 00:07:45:14
Speaker 1
Where did y'all go when you're traveling?

00:07:45:14 - 00:07:52:22
Speaker 2
Oh, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, New Zealand, Australia, Thailand, Southeast Asia, Europe, then back to America.

00:07:52:23 - 00:07:54:22
Speaker 1
Just kind of where y'all like bumming and camping.

00:07:55:00 - 00:08:14:17
Speaker 2
And camping and being the backpacker. Just literally travel and seeing things and I suppose as a backpacker, it was my first opening to outdoor recreation because we did all the outdoor stuff. We went surfing in Fiji, we went hiking in Australia, we went hiking in New Zealand. We did all I mean, New Zealand was the adventure capital of the world, you know?

00:08:14:21 - 00:08:34:22
Speaker 2
So we ended up in New Zealand in, in their summertime and thought, you know, this is epic. And so we both came back to Colorado. She had an idea that she wanted to do a business idea. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do. So I ended up working for the ski resorts. And then the summer came along one summer.

00:08:34:22 - 00:08:53:06
Speaker 2
And and I suppose the natural progression then was, what are you going to do in the summer? And I thought, you know what this rat whitewater rafting thing seems pretty cool. I've heard people talk about it. So I said, I'm going to become a river guide and thought, this is awesome. That's between the skiing and being a river guide.

00:08:53:06 - 00:08:55:16
Speaker 2
And again, I never grew up doing any of this.

00:08:55:16 - 00:08:57:00
Speaker 1
Stuff is all on the job training.

00:08:57:05 - 00:09:16:07
Speaker 2
All on the job. And you got to think it's 30 years ago. So the training maybe wasn't as as intense or as professional as it is now. So did the River guide thing. Loved it and did that, for a couple of years. And back then, whitewater rafting. It wasn't as much big business as it is now.

00:09:16:11 - 00:09:23:22
Speaker 2
And opportunities were growing, I suppose. It was still counted as an extreme sport, as if you think about it now.

00:09:24:01 - 00:09:24:21
Speaker 1
That a lot of people were injured.

00:09:24:22 - 00:09:44:00
Speaker 2
Not a lot of people were into it. It wasn't as popular as it is now. Companies were growing. So I luckily we got involved in a company where I approached the owner, at the beginning of this of my second or third season and said, hey, you know, how about I help you with some marketing or help you with some?

00:09:44:05 - 00:10:03:11
Speaker 2
The business aspect of it? And he was said, yeah, why don't you help me? So I got involved in the business side, got involved in the hiring and training guides and growing his company. And we sort of grew that company over the years. And he bought another rafting company and said, hey, do you want to come and help me run this other rafting company?

00:10:03:13 - 00:10:29:15
Speaker 2
And, you know, right time, right place and said, yeah, I'll do that. So I joined up with him, grew that company, and then, left that to go do some other jobs and tourism and then and so the 2009, I said, you know what? I have this business idea we need to get back involved in the the whitewater rafting and the hiking and biking and going and doing all of that.

00:10:29:15 - 00:10:33:19
Speaker 2
So started Adventure Outdoors in 2009.

00:10:33:21 - 00:10:34:22
Speaker 1
Brought it, putting it all.

00:10:34:22 - 00:10:44:07
Speaker 2
Together, brought it all together, but it all came together because I loved that career and I was like, how can I make a career of it? That's mine. You know.

00:10:44:09 - 00:11:01:23
Speaker 1
Was that something like, how did you get the bug? Like a lot of folks, like, this is my wife and I, for example, her not one of our first actually is funny. Your wife that, like, our first date was a 26 mile hike through a couple ecosystems, through Alaska. I recognize that's not everybody's cup of tea.

00:11:01:23 - 00:11:10:18
Speaker 1
As a matter of fact, most of our friends are not into doing any of that. What was the bug early on that got you into that? Was that something that your parents got you into?

00:11:10:18 - 00:11:16:23
Speaker 2
No, not at all. And my parents were the least outdoor rec folks. I grew up in a city. When a university in a city?

00:11:17:00 - 00:11:18:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. We're in Ireland.

00:11:18:08 - 00:11:49:06
Speaker 2
Dublin. Okay. It just in Dublin. I was heavily involved in sports. Yeah. I think there's a natural progression between sports and outdoor rec. You know, your athletic. Yeah. You like being outside the teamwork side of things. I was pretty involved in rugby and water polo and things like that. So it was the fact that I think the teamwork, whether it be on the mountain, I mean, whether it be your your roommates or your coworkers going skiing for the day or, you know, or whether you're, you're in the summertime and it's all your guides.

00:11:49:06 - 00:12:06:20
Speaker 2
And when you're not boating with guests, you're going on the river with your friends, your coworkers. So it was that whole camaraderie. I loved it, and I loved we all had a passion for for being outside and, and sort of back then pushing the limits of, you know, what we were doing. Equipment wasn't the same as it is now.

00:12:06:22 - 00:12:35:12
Speaker 2
And, a little bit of that adrenaline junkie side of, of of, those recreation opportunities that existed, I mean, everything now is a little bit more monitored and a little bit more involved, and there's a lot more, I think, government agencies involved in managing not to say it wasn't there 30 years ago, but definitely not to the same.

00:12:35:14 - 00:12:36:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, a little bit more or less.

00:12:36:12 - 00:12:50:07
Speaker 2
A little bit more lax. But again, I think it was the people too. Yeah. I mean, that was we were all passionate about the same thing and we, we recreated hard and we partied hard. Yeah. And, and we grew from there. And then I thought, well, how do I stay in this?

00:12:50:09 - 00:12:51:23
Speaker 1
So you kind of just chased here. Yeah.

00:12:52:01 - 00:13:13:14
Speaker 2
And I always had that. Yeah. I grew up in an entrepreneurial family. My wife started a business, air and and I always wanted to be my own boss. Don't get me wrong. I loved working for the companies I worked for prior, and I learned an awful lot, from, the companies I worked for and then a game of time and place.

00:13:13:14 - 00:13:38:02
Speaker 2
I used to joke that everybody else's golf game was getting good while I was working, you know? So I thought it was great. I'll start my own business so my golf game would get good and find somebody else to run it. No, but that's not it, you know? Yeah. And it's still not that way, you know, and I love what I do, like, I work every day and my staff, like, when I take a day off, I.

00:13:38:04 - 00:13:39:00
Speaker 1
I'm going to just do it.

00:13:39:00 - 00:14:00:05
Speaker 2
I just do what I do, I, and I tell everybody I'm not in the recreation business. I'm actually in the people business. And I love people, and I love the stories and asking where people are from and, and, and then I also love providing them with this experiences. And I love seeing the smile on their face. And don't be, there's days where there's not smiles on people's faces.

00:14:00:07 - 00:14:03:17
Speaker 2
But again, I tell everybody, you know, I'm in the people business.

00:14:03:17 - 00:14:23:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I got to, I want to, I want to go down in the people business, path here. But two questions in my brain at the moment. I get an, Irish question. Yep. And then I also have, whitewater rafting question stuck with the Irish one first. I don't know if that's the easy run or not, but I'm curious, what is the, what was the draw to Boston?

00:14:23:14 - 00:14:25:16
Speaker 1
I mean, I can't think of like, every other Irish.

00:14:25:21 - 00:14:30:02
Speaker 2
You know, more cliche thing. Yeah. You go to Boston, you feel comfortable, it feels like home, and.

00:14:30:02 - 00:14:32:06
Speaker 1
You hear about it when you're over it. Yeah. You do.

00:14:32:06 - 00:14:34:01
Speaker 2
And I have family in Boston and and.

00:14:34:02 - 00:14:34:23
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:14:35:01 - 00:15:01:10
Speaker 2
And I visited them and, you know, I think you go where you feel comfortable. Sure. And as a young Irish guy that that arrived, you know, it's a joke. You arrive off the boat and you go, all right, what am I going to do? And it's all about the networking, you know? So you go to a place where there's some networking or somebody knows there's always somebody in Ireland, knows somebody in Boston or somebody in New York where they and, you know, the Irish and the Italians.

00:15:01:10 - 00:15:23:18
Speaker 2
I think we're very alike that we're always like, oh, I know somebody that can help you. And, you know, we're not doing that out of ego. We're not doing it at it. We do it because I think it's part of our culture. We we network, you know, we we're a tight communities. So you go to Boston where somebody is going to be able to say, I know where somebody can get you a room right now, somebody can get you a job, you know, so that's you feel comfortable.

00:15:23:23 - 00:15:25:17
Speaker 2
And again, having family there helped.

00:15:25:19 - 00:15:31:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. It makes a ton of sense that you're talking about community at the beginning of this. I mean that that what's funny to think about that.

00:15:31:16 - 00:15:52:20
Speaker 2
When I came to Colorado, a lot of people question me like, what on earth do you do if you're going to Colorado? Yeah. You know, there's no Irish community in Colorado. That's been the biggest learning curve for me when it comes to the whole being an immigrant and coming here, it seems to be that west of the Mississippi, it's not about your your heritage, you know, and like it seems to be Boston, New York.

00:15:52:20 - 00:16:05:11
Speaker 2
All these areas have like, you know, their Italian sectors and their Irish sectors and this and you come with the Mississippi and it's really not about being Irish or being an Italian, it's you as a person. And that was refreshing, I think.

00:16:05:11 - 00:16:06:03
Speaker 1
Oh, you like that?

00:16:06:03 - 00:16:30:01
Speaker 2
I did love that. I think too, you know, in Boston, some of the Irish Americans are more Irish than the Irish themselves. And I thought, oh, I wanted to come to America, you know, and arriving in Boston sometimes felt like I was never out of Ireland. So, like, it's more I it was more Irish than being at home, you know, I mean, I could walk down the street and I get the food and the, the Irish newspapers and I felt like, oh, this ain't America.

00:16:30:05 - 00:16:37:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. When I, when I arrived in Colorado, I thought, wow, this is maybe what I thought. What America was about.

00:16:38:01 - 00:16:45:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. What can I ask you? What was your growing at? What was the vision of America? What was the thing that was the daydream when you thought about it? It was.

00:16:45:08 - 00:16:46:19
Speaker 2
The TV programs I grew up.

00:16:46:19 - 00:16:47:20
Speaker 1
With. What was it? I mean, you.

00:16:47:20 - 00:17:05:00
Speaker 2
Know, it's a kind of like, you know, we laugh about it now, but it was the 80s TV. It's Knight Rider, it's chips. It's it's L.A., it's it's you know, that's what we grew up with. Yeah. You know, it's it's kind of that East coast. West coast? Yeah. I think everybody, you know, forgets the middle of the country.

00:17:05:00 - 00:17:24:04
Speaker 2
I mean, we laugh about it. Yeah. No, I've never been to Texas. The only thing I know from Texas growing up was South Fork. Yeah. All right, that was this, you know, so. And, you know, I said, oh, if I go to Texas, I'm going to go see South Fork in Dallas, you know? Yeah. But because you grew up with your parents watching Dallas, you know, that that was our perception.

00:17:24:10 - 00:17:50:20
Speaker 2
My perception of America. Yeah. So when you come out west and you see the mountains and the open space and it's not that urban. Yeah. Lifestyle that's depicted in, you know, I mean, the only rural program that we grew up with is little House on the Prairie, you know, that was that that's it. Yeah. But at most, you know, our my growing up in America was more the urban yeah style.

00:17:51:01 - 00:17:54:14
Speaker 1
Now I can see that culture kind of being embedded in all. Yeah. It's always fascinating.

00:17:54:19 - 00:17:58:07
Speaker 2
You you arrive in Colorado and you go, this is awesome.

00:17:58:09 - 00:18:15:13
Speaker 1
See whitewater rafting I for folks who don't I mean, I think they maybe have an understanding of what it is. Talk to me from the perspective of the guide. Like what is that? Just give me a day in the life of a whitewater rafting guide. Like what goes into the gig? What are the things you worried about? What are the things that the job entails?

00:18:15:15 - 00:18:17:19
Speaker 1
Just so folks have an understanding of the job itself.

00:18:17:19 - 00:18:40:10
Speaker 2
And what it what it takes when there's a variety of different whitewater rafting. I mean, you've everything from class one to class five, class one being just a gorgeous float trip, like it's more dangerous in your bathtub, you know, it's it's just floating down a gorgeous river. And then, you know, as you move up through the class, is class three being the most common class enough whitewater to get you wet but not scare anybody?

00:18:40:12 - 00:18:57:00
Speaker 2
And class five being the extreme adrenaline, you know, there's a chance you're going to. Very good chance you're going to fall out of the boat. And there's a very good chance we may not get you immediately, and you're going to go for a good swim. So you've got to be pretty athletic. And and I think that's where the industry has evolved.

00:18:57:00 - 00:19:12:18
Speaker 2
If you think about where I was 30 years ago, it was like, you know, we just took anybody and it wasn't about fitness. And it was, you know, now we're a little bit more. We scrutinize where people are going. But a typical guiding job is, you know, you get there, you get your equipment ready, just like any job, and you get prepared.

00:19:12:20 - 00:19:33:10
Speaker 2
What makes it so interesting? And I tell everybody, you know, I say with people business, you don't know who you're going to meet. And you could have, you know, all one group on your boat. You could have multiple different groups on a boat, depending on the size of the boat that you're in. So you're meeting people. For me it was great because I was meeting people from all around the United States.

00:19:33:12 - 00:19:50:15
Speaker 2
And, you know, some international visitors, that's grown over the years. But it was predominately folks from the United States. And it 30 years ago, I think you were counted as the extreme parent. If you were going to take your kids whitewater rafting right now, it's like you can't come to Colorado or you shouldn't come to Colorado in the summertime.

00:19:50:17 - 00:20:11:05
Speaker 2
You need to go rafting. It's it's it's part of our experience of visiting Colorado. So that side of it, you don't know who you're going to get. And then depending on who you get in your boat is going to dictate the conversation. Sometimes people are there. They don't want to talk to you. They're just there to take it in and relax and be involved in nature.

00:20:11:07 - 00:20:39:23
Speaker 2
Sometimes it's just question upon question and, you know, yeah, it can be everything you talk about. You know, where people are from, how you got here. I mean, I think people are fascinated about you as a guy. They want to hear that story. You know, most, parents look at the guy in the back of the boat if they're with their, their kids and let's say their kids are, you know, older teenagers, they're like, oh, I hope my daughter or son doesn't like things turn out to be turned out to be the right guy.

00:20:39:23 - 00:20:57:07
Speaker 2
And the raft guy is like, this is epic. And talking about how well an awesome job it is and the parent is all thinking, you know, ready for their kid to to hit the corporate America. And they're the kids looking at the back of the boat and going, that seems like a cool gig. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah.

00:20:57:09 - 00:21:06:12
Speaker 2
So, you know, as you say, it's all different people and conversations and, and, but you can't ever forget that you got people's lives.

00:21:06:14 - 00:21:08:11
Speaker 1
I was going to ask you about that, that side of it.

00:21:08:13 - 00:21:36:21
Speaker 2
That is the most important thing. And that is something that every guide in any kind of outdoor rec, you can never forget, that you start your day off, you know, understanding that, you know, your worst day is different. Like, you know, people can get hurt. Worst case scenario, people can die and you've got to go into your job every day knowing that that can happen and it can happen for medical reasons.

00:21:36:21 - 00:22:07:22
Speaker 2
It can happen for accidents on their, and be conscious and confident of your ability that you're going to provide a safe, enjoyable, memorable experience and memorable in in the right way. You know, because things happen out there in there and in outdoor rec and, and that is something you got to be prepared about. And I've had plenty of staff over the years and I really all I love it when a young guy comes to me and says, you know what, this guy and thing isn't for me.

00:22:07:22 - 00:22:27:01
Speaker 2
I don't want that responsibility. That takes a lot of guts to acknowledge that you don't want that responsibility. You know you're dealing with that. You're an all, you're good. You're I, I love that honesty I versus a somebody's going into it thinking cocky and cocky or you know, we always joke about it, you know, a second year guy.

00:22:27:01 - 00:22:28:04
Speaker 2
It's probably the most dangerous thing.

00:22:28:10 - 00:22:29:07
Speaker 1
Because he thinks he knows.

00:22:29:07 - 00:22:49:09
Speaker 2
He thinks he knows it all. First year guy is timid and fear in any kind of fear is good. Fear keeps it healthy. Fear keeps you safe, you know, and Mother Nature, you've always got to have that respect. Mother nature is always more powerful. And I tell everybody a good guide is going to finesse the river versus you're never going to brute strength that you might.

00:22:49:11 - 00:22:52:14
Speaker 2
But every once in a while it's going to catch it.

00:22:52:16 - 00:23:03:03
Speaker 1
When did you realize? Obviously, you got it for quite some time before, you know, starting the company. Was there ever a time where you were like, I'm not sure I want to keep doing this because of that risk.

00:23:03:03 - 00:23:29:08
Speaker 2
Not because of the risk. I, I was confident that if anything happened, I was trained well enough and I was confident then I've been in some situations that, you know, you never know how you're going to react until you're in it. I mean, you can think that this individual, you can have a ten year guide plus, and when it comes to a situation, the rookie guy might have been the guy that really stepped up because no one knows how you're going to react to that situation.

00:23:29:08 - 00:24:01:01
Speaker 2
And there, I was confident in my own ability. I was confident in how I was trained. So it never really worried me on that or really worried me was more of the career financial side of can I make a living doing this? And I think that is the dilemma that most guides who were so passionate about it, and we feel it's kind of a sell out when you become into the office or you get involved in admin or, you know, you become the boathouse manager, or you become the the lead guide, and maybe you're not on the river as much.

00:24:01:01 - 00:24:20:14
Speaker 2
Is that a sell out or, you know, but I think that that's the the next step to the careers. I don't think there's a few guys that can keep doing it, but your body eventually is going to be like, I can't do this, you know, five, six, seven days a week. Yeah, throughout the whole summer, because it is physically demanding on you.

00:24:20:16 - 00:24:45:01
Speaker 2
And financially it's it's a tough industry to be in as a guide because it's a ramp up. You deal. You don't make consistent money. You know out there your guiding life. And and the other side of what people have to understand is most outdoor rec is in resort communities. They're expensive places to live. Yeah.

00:24:45:04 - 00:24:48:18
Speaker 1
So there's probably a lot of roommates and a lot of a lot of roommates.

00:24:48:21 - 00:25:05:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and the social side. And so that that was my I was I love this industry. I love being a guide. How do I keep in this industry. So my natural progression, which is why when I reached out to that, my first boss and said, hey, can I help you with marketing? Can I help you with sales?

00:25:06:00 - 00:25:17:15
Speaker 2
You know, it was a way to supplement my income. And then you realize you've got to do these extra roles, extra jobs to supplement the income to, you know, eventually make our home here.

00:25:17:18 - 00:25:40:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. So you started venturing outdoors, but the the impetus behind it was we were talking about it before the show. You said that, you recognized just kind of had discombobulated the adventure experience was for the clients was at the end. And I'd love to talk about that. But was that the initial reason why you decided that or was the initial reason like, hey, I need to financially get to a better rung here.

00:25:40:12 - 00:25:42:16
Speaker 1
Let me start taking more ownership of what I'm doing.

00:25:42:16 - 00:26:03:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, I saw an opportunity. That's it. And I think that's I think but more part of my personality you see an opportunity to go for it. You know, what's the why of always my father instilled in me that what's the worst thing somebody can say? No. Get used to it. Yeah. You know, so what? So, you know, I was always looking for that opportunity.

00:26:03:05 - 00:26:27:01
Speaker 2
And then I realized an opportunity existed because most outdoor rec companies were started. His mom and pop operations, they were started because people were passionate about, you know, horseback riding, rafting, whatever the recreation was. So you started a mom and pop operation. You start with 1 or 2 boats and you do it, and then you grow from there, and then you realize, you know, I'm not guiding anymore.

00:26:27:01 - 00:26:55:06
Speaker 2
Now I'm driving the bus, now I'm answering the phone. And now these companies grew. I think what I realized still in the 2000s was we had all these individuals, smaller companies that are all fighting for that phone to ring. So why don't we set up a company that can be a one stop call center? And then when somebody is calling up to book a rafting trip, I can mention to them on the phone, hey, would you like to do a horseback ride, too?

00:26:55:06 - 00:27:12:09
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. You do that too? Oh, yeah, we do it now, right? But us. But we were the call center for the stables. Yeah, we got a commission. So I built my business saying to all these businesses, how about I handle your phones? How about I handle your calendar? How about we cross-promote with cross-sell? And I think that's the business side of it.

00:27:12:09 - 00:27:40:19
Speaker 2
That was a wonderful opportunity for me because as business owners, we sort of, close the doors. We don't, you know, we're we're, we're private about how we do business. Yet, you know, we're trying to grow our business and, and I brought all these owners together and said, hey, why don't we all join up together. And they had faith and confidence in this concept and said, yeah, Khan why don't you take over my phone?

00:27:40:19 - 00:28:06:18
Speaker 2
So why don't you take over our calendar and be this centralized, operation? Now, I owned only two of the tractions or two of the activities. And yet I was servicing, let's say, a dozen. And then, as we grew and then I would say you're on a five book your trip for you. I get a commission.

00:28:06:20 - 00:28:28:08
Speaker 2
And so we grew from there. And then eventually a lot of the industry owners there were they had started their companies 20, ten years ago, and they were deciding to move on. So I took that as opportunity. Hey, when you're ready to move on, I'll, I'll buy you out, or we'll, why don't you come and fold into this and be my business partner?

00:28:28:12 - 00:28:31:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, that's how we grew the company.

00:28:31:07 - 00:28:34:03
Speaker 1
With the two activities you had at the beginning were.

00:28:34:05 - 00:28:37:10
Speaker 2
Bike rentals. Okay. And river toy rentals. So what.

00:28:37:12 - 00:28:38:06
Speaker 1
Is it? River toy?

00:28:38:06 - 00:29:01:12
Speaker 2
River toy rentals. So think about, like, inner tubes or duckies or stand up. Wasn't stand up paddle boards, then. That's been a new at new. Yeah. Activity. But let's say, like an inflatable kayak, our inner tubes and bike rentals. Okay. And that's all I had. And we get, we offered rafting, so I went to a rafting company and said, hey, you know, I will book rafting trips for you.

00:29:01:13 - 00:29:24:17
Speaker 2
You can be on the river, you can be running your trips. We'll handle your operation for you. And these folks were passionate about being on the outdoors. Yeah. Let me out on the river. You take over the admin side. And then we eventually bought them out. And then we did that too. We used to do Segway tours for gentlemen, and we bought the Segway tours, and then we brought in the ranch, who's my current business partner to this day.

00:29:24:19 - 00:29:47:15
Speaker 2
I brought in the ranch activities and the horseback riding and the UTV tours and the skeet shooting. And so we evolved all that to to this concept. And then I think what really helped us grow was the hotels and resort communities. We simplified their lives. So if you think you're a concierge or front desk and somebody comes up and says, tell me about rafting and then then follow up with now tell me about horseback riding.

00:29:47:15 - 00:29:55:10
Speaker 2
Where can I rent a bike? You know, now the front desk person has said, hey, you know, here's one phone number, here's one website.

00:29:55:10 - 00:29:56:03
Speaker 1
They'll take care of it.

00:29:56:04 - 00:30:18:17
Speaker 2
They'll take care of you. Yeah. And it we simplified the the system not only for the hotels and the concierge as we simplified it for the visitor. And now it's interesting because that consolidation, I think we were I think maybe the first to really go into that consolidation of all the attractions and different revenue streams, versus being single focus.

00:30:18:17 - 00:30:38:00
Speaker 2
If you think about the rafting companies back then, that's all they did was rafting. If you were a stables, you all you did was horseback riding. You know, if you were a climber, you just offered climbing trips. We brought them all under one umbrella. Now we see in the industry so much more consolidation. You have like adventure centers and they provide all the activities.

00:30:38:02 - 00:30:44:07
Speaker 2
And also to by doing that, I think it made my company a little bit more stable. You know, when you.

00:30:44:07 - 00:30:44:16
Speaker 1
Deal with the.

00:30:44:16 - 00:31:06:08
Speaker 2
Seasons, deal with the seasons, but also deal with different, how Mother Nature might throw a few curveballs, whether there's less water in the rivers or we can utilize the ranch activities, you know, are, we had different revenue streams. We weren't so singularly focused. And we were able to grow across all of these different recreational. And you didn't.

00:31:06:08 - 00:31:21:10
Speaker 1
Mind, like, I think that the admin side of it didn't bother you at all. Like taking in all that, because I imagine for a guy who is like the adrenaline in the blood. Yeah, that is kind of where you want to stay the furthest away. Why is that such a and an okay thing for you to take on?

00:31:21:12 - 00:31:41:06
Speaker 2
I think it came with the maturity of having a family and, and a career and wanting a career and living in a resort. And I saw it as, as a way to be in the industry. And it was a way to be stable within the industry, and be stable living in a resort community. It was, it was, a lifestyle decision.

00:31:41:08 - 00:32:04:11
Speaker 2
You know, I could have been a guide for a number of more years working for these guiding companies. But again, you know, that wasn't going to allow me to, grow a family, live in these expensive communities. And I also was always passionate about business, too, you know, and, that I loved as well.

00:32:04:16 - 00:32:05:05
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:32:05:07 - 00:32:15:06
Speaker 2
I liked the business side of it. I like the people side of the business, like the marketing, the sales. I generally love the sales side. I think being Irish, the gift of the gab, you know?

00:32:15:08 - 00:32:34:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. Again, it goes, there's a natural, there's a natural current with the way you talk to folks. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. He was like, I'm curious about that side of the things. When you were helping these guys in these smaller outfits. When you first started off with sales and marketing, what were the things you were doing that were helping them?

00:32:35:00 - 00:32:38:06
Speaker 1
Like, was it was it rocket science things or.

00:32:38:08 - 00:32:53:01
Speaker 2
It was back then it was the growth of the internet. So it was the start of the internet. If you think about the, you know, 97, 98, 99, 2000. So it was it was getting online and it was growing the website. And, you know, we didn't have online reservation systems back then.

00:32:53:01 - 00:32:53:09
Speaker 1
Called.

00:32:53:09 - 00:33:17:04
Speaker 2
Oasis. You called always. And there was that's where this industry's also evolved in the sense of back then it was all, relationships, network building, face to face. Now it's not face to face. And I think, you know, where the industry has evolved, which has been fascinating to see is, you know, people book a car rental or a hotel now, they never speak to a front desk.

00:33:17:06 - 00:33:36:18
Speaker 2
It's only in the last five, six years that people feel comfortable with outdoor recreation that they would book without calling. We used to have a, you know, we built my business on a on a call center because people wanted to know, is it safe to take my kid rafting, you know, do you have a horse suitable for my height?

00:33:36:18 - 00:33:57:03
Speaker 2
Suitable for my weight. Is it okay to go on a UTV tour? Where are you going to take their. All these questions as technology has evolved into the websites, we've, you know, with video, with with the storytelling, we can say people watch and see, you know, the only thing they're not doing is smelling it right now is, you know, so they're seeing it on the website, they're booking it.

00:33:57:09 - 00:34:26:21
Speaker 2
And the call center concept is decreased immensely. I used to have, you know, maybe a dozen people answering phones. We're down to maybe two, because people are more comfortable booking recreation, online. So my concept that I brought, you know, started my company with wouldn't work now. Very different. Very, very different. I think now it's all about search engine optimization and it's all like, like, who are we hiring in our industry right now?

00:34:26:23 - 00:34:59:00
Speaker 2
We're looking for for people that are passionate about the outdoors but also have got the finance background. Are the IT background and are, that's where the careers are. You know, they're there and, you know, it's it's I'm generalizing here are saying this, but, you know, the finance majors or the accountants maybe didn't grow up in the outdoor recreation side of it as much or passionate about the outdoors is maybe the marketing PR, communications graduate our student would have been.

00:34:59:02 - 00:35:17:19
Speaker 2
So it's finding somebody in finance that's passionate about the outdoors that wants to work in outdoor rec, who's eventually going to handle your books and and do all of that, or the graphic designer that wants to, you know, help you with your brochures. And they did that. The brochures now have disappeared. It's more of the the coding guy that can develop your website.

00:35:17:20 - 00:35:18:02
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:35:18:02 - 00:35:52:04
Speaker 2
Make it make it different than the reservation systems and and and building on that or how do we how do we integrate reservation systems with third party businesses. So it's been an awesome 30 years to be involved in this business because it's evolved. And it's like every few years, whether it was equipment, if you think about boats, when I first started raft guiding, it was a bucket boat, which means that the water came into the boat and the only way you got the water out of the boat was a five gallon bucket, and you gave it to a guest who literally their job going down the river was every once in a while, get the

00:35:52:04 - 00:36:07:20
Speaker 2
water, throw it out of the boat. There was more injuries with the five gallon bucket than there was with the rapids, with the paddles, because they'd be turning around in the boat and smacking people in the face with them with the bucket. So now, you know, we don't have bucket boats as much. You know, we have self bailing boats.

00:36:07:20 - 00:36:31:03
Speaker 2
The water goes in and leaves the boat. So, you know, initially it was the equipment evolving. And as the equipment evolving, we became a safer industry, more, accessible industry for everybody. Now, you know, then we, you know, you look at technology, how that's changed the industry in the sense of people being able to see recreation across the world.

00:36:31:05 - 00:36:51:18
Speaker 2
You know, you're booking your trip in Europe or Colorado or wherever through video there. You're watching it and saying, that's epic. Yeah. You know, it used to be picking up the ski magazine and looking at the resorts and maybe going to a Warren Miller ski movie and going, oh, that resort looks cool. Now we get to see it.

00:36:51:18 - 00:36:53:00
Speaker 2
And, you know.

00:36:53:02 - 00:36:54:06
Speaker 1
It's just a lot of different ways to do it.

00:36:54:06 - 00:36:57:07
Speaker 2
It's a long way. We're recreating it completely.

00:36:57:09 - 00:37:13:15
Speaker 1
When you were going back to taking over the like when you would kind of like, roll these companies into the bigger brand and let's say that owner was going to retire or move on or do something. And how did you secure the that operation still running like without that key person there anymore?

00:37:13:17 - 00:37:41:13
Speaker 2
I learned just by building the relationships because I couldn't sell it unless I understood it. So, you know, I went on Segway tours, I went horseback riding, I went UTV tours, I, I, I understood it and then we also said to these, you know, it was part of being involved. So I got to know those industries and then, you know, knowledge is key.

00:37:41:15 - 00:38:19:06
Speaker 2
And then from that knowledge, I mean, could I saddle a horse to this day? No, nor do I claim to. It's understanding where you can go and understanding. But I can sell the experience easy. Yeah. You know, and that's I suppose, you know, you look upon your strengths and your weaknesses and my strengths is, is I could sell the experience and I could sell it in a way where people feel comfortable doing business with me, understanding that we're there to provide the best, safest experience for you, for your hard earned dollar.

00:38:19:08 - 00:38:45:05
Speaker 2
You know, some people would go with this. This is all they have. This is the one thing they're going to do, and this is going to make or break them, you know, and for other people, you know, it's a drop in the ocean. Yeah. And it's it's, you know, that's important. And that was my focus too, is no matter who you were or where you were coming from or what demographic, we were going to give you that awesome experience and provide you the best customer service and grow it from there.

00:38:45:11 - 00:38:55:05
Speaker 2
And I, to this day, do my best in the office that I work at is I try to meet every guest that walks into my business.

00:38:55:05 - 00:38:55:23
Speaker 1
Oh, do you really?

00:38:55:23 - 00:39:23:23
Speaker 2
I still check people and I, you know, I'm there and I believe that's important. Whether you're an owner or general manager or lead guide, I think people need to feel comfortable and they need to feel that you are a professional run organization. I mean, there's what other industry do you walk into? You're buying something, you're buying the experience.

00:39:23:23 - 00:39:43:13
Speaker 2
And the very first thing we tell you to do is go sign a waiver where it talks about death and injury and everything else. Yeah. You know, so as soon as they, you know, read that, and, you know, a lot of people don't to this day, but as soon as they read the waiver, they got to feel safe and they feel comfortable.

00:39:43:15 - 00:39:44:12
Speaker 1
You got a meeting where it's at.

00:39:44:13 - 00:39:54:07
Speaker 2
Meet them where it's at and set the expectation. And I and I try to do that in our equipment and our customer service and our website, where people feel as if these guys know what they're doing.

00:39:54:09 - 00:40:09:10
Speaker 1
Do you like, did you have to with the people that you kind of left, like your the teammates and the folks that are running it, the owner, the, the old owner, ladies of that outfit. Now it's yours. Did you always make sure there were some general manager or some senior person there? Operationally, they can keep the time.

00:40:09:11 - 00:40:29:07
Speaker 2
I think that's key. And then eventually. But it is also maybe a cultural shift. That's the other thing. When you take over a business and you do that, some of the old staff may not like the culture that you're bringing. Yeah, to the table. And that's something that you have to it's, you know, it's not personal. You know, it's just they may not like your culture.

00:40:29:09 - 00:40:50:04
Speaker 2
And I deal with that every day of the week, you know? You know, it's when you're the boss, you got to be tough skinned, you know? It's. And then, you know, I think as, as the entrepreneurial spirit I have my way of doing business. Yeah. And you have a choice as an employee, if you like my way of doing business.

00:40:50:04 - 00:41:13:04
Speaker 2
And you, then maybe we're going to flourish. Is that employer employee relationship? I also think it's really important to me. I am only as good as my staff. Period. I can have the best website, the best equipment. We may look the most professional out there in a sense of our equipment and our gear and our office and our website.

00:41:13:06 - 00:41:29:20
Speaker 2
But realistically, it all comes down to the people that are on a boat with you or the wranglers that are on the ride with you are the bike tech that fits you up with the bike and it starts there. I'm with you. I'm there greeting you and taking your money. But the guides are with you for 2.5 hours or a full day.

00:41:29:20 - 00:41:50:17
Speaker 2
Or if it's a multi-day trip, they're the ones that are representing you out there, and you're only as good as your staff in this business. You're only as good as your staff, period. And I love I'm I tell everybody they're a chapter of my I'm a chapter in their book. Very few of us get to make careers in this industry.

00:41:50:19 - 00:42:09:10
Speaker 2
And 95% of folks, this is an amazing chapter for them. They go on to different careers and I hopefully, you know, when they move on to careers, the door is always open. Come on and visit me with your family and your kids. And now when they come on back and I see some staff walk in and they're married and the kids, it makes me feel old.

00:42:09:10 - 00:42:32:04
Speaker 2
I'm like, oh, I remember you as a young 20 year old when you were a river guy, and I could tell you stories to their spines. I'm like, if only you knew. But on the other side of things, that is, that is my I've. I've been really blessed, to have the right people and, you know, and this, you know, I every year you look at your crew and, you know, a staff.

00:42:32:04 - 00:42:53:18
Speaker 2
Well, there's a, there's, a life, span. And it can be three years. It can be four years, it can be two years. But you're hopefully returning staff are awesome. I mean, it just it they they know your systems. It's safer. So you try to always get returning staff. But amongst the staff they build a camaraderie. They become a really tight group.

00:42:53:18 - 00:43:11:21
Speaker 2
Anybody. It's worked in after a rector, you know, you said you were part of the military. You become tight when you're out there in the field, but you're with you're a team. So they get tight. So when 1 or 2 begin to leave and move on to their careers, you know, or their next chapter, you have a tendency maybe to lose more because they're like, oh, my buddies aren't coming back.

00:43:11:21 - 00:43:13:06
Speaker 2
I'm now I'm going to go.

00:43:13:08 - 00:43:14:03
Speaker 1
Move on, move.

00:43:14:03 - 00:43:15:04
Speaker 2
On. Or we say a lot of.

00:43:15:04 - 00:43:16:16
Speaker 1
Them are moving on, like outside of the.

00:43:16:16 - 00:43:33:23
Speaker 2
Industry, outside into the we call it into the real world. And I tell them where you are in the real world, this is the real world. We're lucky. Yeah. You know, it's that it's that perception that people have. Let's say, from the urban areas, that this ain't real. This is just as real as you working in your corporate job.

00:43:33:23 - 00:43:51:10
Speaker 2
Are you in the office? Yeah. You know, and but again, the only thing real about it right now in our industry is the, the cost of living in the pay. And that maybe not as be as real as it should be.

00:43:51:12 - 00:43:59:03
Speaker 1
Can can you today can you be a can you be a long term guide like you can you.

00:43:59:03 - 00:44:34:05
Speaker 2
Can you got to look after your body. And depending on what you do, look after your body and you can be it. But again, the long term guides work more than everybody else too. I mean, you're senior staff. You know, I always tell everybody what I do is, is, always think what a judge thinks. So, for instance, you know, I oh, not to the detriment of my first year or second year guides, but it's always in my best interest to put my most senior staff out and then and then intertwine my first years and second years and let them grow and learn from your senior guides and let them evolve, you know.

00:44:34:10 - 00:44:57:00
Speaker 2
So can you be a senior guide? And yes, you can do it. It's tough. It's tough financially. It's tough on your family. You know, if you're a multi-day guide, you're gone a lot. Yeah, we've got a lot of I'm predominantly in you know, we probably do day trips. So my senior staff get to go home and I have staff that have got families and mortgages and this is what they do.

00:44:57:00 - 00:45:23:09
Speaker 2
And they're passionate about this. They work for me for a season and then they work for the ski resorts. And their patrollers are their ski instructors, and they're they've worked their way up the ranks within within those industries to the goal of what I feel my biggest goal for those staff is to make sure I can drag my season out as long as possible for them, so they don't have as much of an off season.

00:45:23:11 - 00:45:39:09
Speaker 2
So, you know, we try to make sure that that, you know, recreation, that's the other thing that's changed in 30 years, right? White water rafting used to be when I rafted, as you know, when I first started, June 15th to August 15th, that's when we did it. Now people are rafting as early as April, and we're going.

00:45:39:09 - 00:45:47:00
Speaker 2
Our last trip last year was first week in November. Wow. You know, climate change is changing that. Our seasons are.

00:45:47:02 - 00:45:48:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, they're getting warmer, getting warmer.

00:45:48:14 - 00:45:50:10
Speaker 2
We're getting longer. You know.

00:45:50:10 - 00:45:51:14
Speaker 1
People can tell for maybe.

00:45:51:14 - 00:45:52:03
Speaker 2
What's that?

00:45:52:03 - 00:45:53:14
Speaker 1
Maybe people getting tougher.

00:45:53:16 - 00:46:21:04
Speaker 2
People are getting tougher. Yeah, maybe people are. But the equipment's getting better. You know, the wetsuits, the paddle jackets. We can. We can recreate in different, climate, water, you know, weather conditions. So, you know. Yeah. So. And it's in my best interest to make sure I'm looking after my senior staff, but also it's in also my best interest to make sure I'm looking after my first year or second year guys, because they are my potential senior staff.

00:46:21:06 - 00:46:26:15
Speaker 2
So yeah, as I said, you're only as good as those guys in making sure you're looking after everybody, you know?

00:46:26:19 - 00:46:30:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, and it's a bit of a this dance that you kind of have to do constantly nurturing balanced.

00:46:30:17 - 00:46:58:07
Speaker 2
Balance that and make sure that they're all, you know, I tell everybody to generalize a little bit here, but to be a guide, you're kind of Type-A, so you're putting a lot of type A personalities into a boathouse. You know, confident young man, young women into a situation. And they're all, I think, outdoor rec breeds leaders.

00:46:58:09 - 00:47:24:20
Speaker 2
I mean, it's just I it's very similar. We talk about being an athlete. You know, there's a reason corporate America hires division one athletes. You know, they're, and I think guides deal with are similar. They're athletes in their own way, and they're dealing with Mother Nature, and they're dealing with all the trials and tribulations that comes with a day of being outside and dealing with the general public.

00:47:24:22 - 00:47:30:12
Speaker 2
And, the confidence you have to have, you know, fake it till you make it.

00:47:30:14 - 00:47:57:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, there, there's a lot of similarities in my time. I remember in the service, and I'd talk and catch up with mountain guides. I think they're, they're, they're forced into a situation that individually is very, I mean, for anybody is very stressful just to survive in an environment. And then in a weird way, you have to keep your composure about yourself, because there are a lot of people looking to you to instill confidence in them, and it is a skill that you can't read about.

00:47:57:02 - 00:48:12:22
Speaker 1
You just have to experience. You have to understand what you're about, and then you can kind of go in there. I can see why that's directly applicable to the world. I think, I think it's something that a lot of the times can get dismissed, whether you're an athlete or a former military or mountain guide, and then you kind of pursue the corporate world.

00:48:13:00 - 00:48:31:05
Speaker 1
It just seems so irrelevant. Like, yeah, that's not important. And the reality of it is, it's it might be the most important thing, which is, I used to tell young officers coming up, they used to advice like, hey, how do you any advice you have for leading a team? And I'd say sometimes, man, when it's really going bad, like, there's no way out of it.

00:48:31:05 - 00:48:49:10
Speaker 1
The only thing you can do for your team, the only thing you can give them is your calm. Yeah. Inside, you might be as scared as heck as they are. I go, but at the end of the day, what's odd is that your calm is what will allow them to will a decision into existence and make their way through, if there's any chance at all.

00:48:49:12 - 00:49:02:12
Speaker 1
But it's your calm and I imagine it's the same thing with with guiding. Like at some points, Mother Nature is going to throw your left swing, and there's nothing you can do but take it on the chin. Yeah, but you your people are looking at you, looking at this guide, going, if they're freaking out, then I'm sure as heck jumping out it.

00:49:02:12 - 00:49:23:01
Speaker 2
And if you think about, you know, generally it's a younger guide. I mean, it's it's dad coming out of my dad, a mom coming out with the kids, and dad's looking at the back of the boat, or the climbing guide or whoever, and goes, wow, my family's in the hands of a 21 year old kid at the back of a boat, you know?

00:49:23:03 - 00:49:43:12
Speaker 2
So you got to make them feel comfortable that that that guide is trained well and comes across as confident in the guide. I tell the guides, be yourself. There's a reason you're in this industry. There's a reason that I hired you. I saw it in you. So be that person, you know? And again, a different perspective, but somewhat on the side.

00:49:43:14 - 00:50:07:07
Speaker 2
You know, I've got two daughters, so, you know, bringing up women within the industry, too. I mean, they've had to fight even to this day. It's interesting to see the perception of of how the general public looks. It's females within the guiding roles. It's amazing the amount of moms when we introduce guides, you know, we we do the safety orientation.

00:50:07:07 - 00:50:26:08
Speaker 2
We do this whether it's, you know, I'm going to talk about whitewater rafting here. We do the safety orientation and then we call you out by your last name and we say, all righty. You know Smith party of for you are with Jill. And then they meet Jill the guide. And then mom quickly runs into the office, you know, and walks up to the front desk and says, can we have a male guide?

00:50:26:09 - 00:50:27:07
Speaker 2
And you're like, wow.

00:50:27:08 - 00:50:28:02
Speaker 1
That's the mother saying.

00:50:28:02 - 00:50:55:21
Speaker 2
And the mothers saying this, you know, of all of you would think, you know, and, you know, the female guides, they still it's getting a lot better. Oh, it's improved immensely. But, you know, and I always tell everybody female river guides from day one, they've learned how to finesse their way down the river. You know, the big guy that shows up with the big muscles and, you know, and he's brute force it down the river.

00:50:55:23 - 00:50:57:06
Speaker 2
Brute force is not going away.

00:50:57:06 - 00:51:15:20
Speaker 1
It's not going away. No. You might be in the best hands. Yes. Kind of using a weave. I think that being in the service, I always enjoyed doing the wrong. Really enjoyed, anytime a helicopter came in and pulled us out of a bad situation. But every time it was a gal pilot, I actually had a lot of ease because I recognize that there.

00:51:15:22 - 00:51:33:19
Speaker 1
I think about if they don't, especially with something that's highly technical, this thing you're not going to like. If it was up to me, I'd be forcing a switch into what it and it's going to break the thing. So I just recognize specially we were coming in and out of bad weather or something like that. I always actually had a lot more calm because I knew they were going to, like you said, they're going to finesse their way through it.

00:51:33:21 - 00:51:40:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, and work with it as opposed to our natural nature, which is working like we're a little bit more combative in the way that we think about things, so that maybe.

00:51:40:20 - 00:52:06:13
Speaker 2
The best guides have ever seen, whether it be whatever recreation it's been. Female guides. Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's, it's that perception of what people think they want to get, you know, it's, it's just interesting to see the, the public react when they're introduced to the guide. Yeah. That's funny. And it's interesting to see how the guide personality has evolved.

00:52:06:15 - 00:52:28:06
Speaker 2
You know, I think the perception we've we've as an industry, you know, we're $1 billion industry. You know, right now in Colorado recreation has more you know, it's bigger to the economy than oil and gas. So it the guides, you know, the yes, there is the guides with the dreadlocks and that that's the whole appearance and the look at that.

00:52:28:08 - 00:52:32:02
Speaker 1
The perception that look like you look like a bum. Yeah.

00:52:32:04 - 00:52:47:20
Speaker 2
But yeah, you know, they're living in their tent of halfway up a mountain. But now I think the guides and, you know, we've evolved into a more professional industry and, you know, you're all kid is sitting at the back of the boat or taking the horseback ride out and so on.

00:52:47:20 - 00:52:48:06
Speaker 1
No, that's.

00:52:48:06 - 00:53:07:08
Speaker 2
Right. You know, it's it's, nothing against, you know, the dreadlocks, tattoos. I mean, there's wonderful guides, you know, but I think that that impression that people have of who's at the back of the boat or who's leading the climb or doing that, the industry is definitely, evolving.

00:53:07:08 - 00:53:07:21
Speaker 1
Evolving?

00:53:07:21 - 00:53:08:11
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:53:08:13 - 00:53:28:03
Speaker 1
Speaking of speaking of where things are going, how do you think about kind of the future of this industry for generations to come? I know there there's, you know, probably thoughts about, you know, the way y'all make your money as using using the land. Yeah. You know, in the way what it gives you. What are the things that keep you up at night.

00:53:29:19 - 00:53:32:11
Speaker 2
Is there going to be water in our rivers specifically.

00:53:32:11 - 00:53:33:01
Speaker 1
In Colorado.

00:53:33:01 - 00:53:54:21
Speaker 2
Specifically, is it going to be water is in our rivers next year? Is there you know, is the mountains going to be accessible due to fires? Is, you know, it's we have a lot on our plate. We where growing and in recreation, you know, there's a balance. We're not we're, we're, we're mothers. Nature's amusement park. We're not an amusement park.

00:53:54:21 - 00:54:25:09
Speaker 2
We're not Disneyland. Yeah. You know, and, you know, it's finding that balance about how many people we can that can utilize that resource that is not diminishing that resource, but also is not diminishing the experience. I know we talked prior to the interview about protecting the resource and protecting the experience. You know, that that's where that's where as an industry, we got to think and think hard about it.

00:54:25:11 - 00:54:58:04
Speaker 2
And I think access and people complain that, you know, about, you know, the days of, of as a private user, you know, you have to have permits or you've got to get timed entry, you know, whether it be into some of these managed use areas like Maroon Bells, you know, I have another company that we manage, these, these high recreation areas such as Maroon Bells and Hanging Lake, which are two iconic destinations in in Colorado, to hiking wilderness access, areas being Maroon Bells and Hanging Lake is the most gorgeous, beautiful hike.

00:54:58:06 - 00:55:25:03
Speaker 2
But we couldn't keep having 3000 people show up per day to go visit Hanging Lake. We had to come up with, with a managed use plan. I think I've been really lucky to be at the right time, in the right place, where a U.S. Forest Service supervisor, a guy called Scott Fitzwilliam, who actually came from Alaska, and Scott was a breath of fresh air when dealing with, with the Forest Service.

00:55:25:08 - 00:55:54:01
Speaker 2
He came from an area whereby he had to work with outfitters and, and private enterprise because of the vastness of, of dealing with Alaska's wilderness. So when he came to Colorado and was managing white River National Forest, this the largest recreational forest we have in the United States. It's where all the ski areas are on it. You know, he came here and he came here with this open minded of, we have to work with these guys.

00:55:54:01 - 00:56:15:10
Speaker 2
We have to. It's in our best interest. So when it came to Hanging Lake, which was in the white River National Forest, he reached out to private enterprise and said, you know, if you were to manage Hanging Lake, how would you manage it? What a great way to do an RFP. Yeah, and we were one of the companies that said, all right, if we manage Hanging Lake, this is what we would do.

00:56:15:12 - 00:56:35:22
Speaker 2
And he was like, you know, our the Forest Service was like, this is a great idea. Why don't you guys do it and we'll be a partner with you in doing it. So we developed this, you know, we they gave us the amount of people that should visit Hanging Lake per day. And then we came up with the timed entry of we allow certain people come in at seven, eight, nine, ten throughout the day.

00:56:36:00 - 00:56:45:13
Speaker 2
And that is protecting the resource for the next generations because, you know, we tell everybody we're actually in the restroom and parking business because that's.

00:56:45:15 - 00:56:46:15
Speaker 1
Where it starts.

00:56:46:21 - 00:57:17:03
Speaker 2
That's where it starts. And you're that those that infrastructure is going to limit how many people can recreate in these areas. You know, the boat ramp can only accommodate a certain amount of boats. So as recreation's growing now and it's become this billion dollar industry is how do we still provide the opportunity to people to recreate, without ruining the resource?

00:57:17:03 - 00:57:37:18
Speaker 2
So it's there for the next generations to come. And that's, that's where the industry is going next. And finding that balance, you know, I think, you know, even in ski areas, you know, how many people can ski or run for it to feel like a great ski run? How many people do we want? You know, too many people create a long lift line.

00:57:37:20 - 00:58:04:04
Speaker 2
And we saw that during, you know, Covid when everybody came to Colorado, wanted to be in the outdoors. And so, so I think it's managing that because if we don't, first of all, if the if the resource gets ruined, people aren't going to want to come and if the experience is ruined, people aren't going to think it's good value or it's a good product they paid for and they're, you know, people who who recreate with me, they're my salespeople.

00:58:04:04 - 00:58:24:09
Speaker 2
They're going home. You can say, I got to go to do this. So we have to provide that quality experience. So I think the industry is on this cusp of figuring out what is our capacities now. The wilderness is the wilderness, but I think high use areas where now we're having to talk about capacity.

00:58:24:09 - 00:58:39:00
Speaker 1
Capacity. Is that what I hear you kind of saying is it's kind of all things in balance. It's not. Yeah, do whatever you want. Just run the land until it's nothing. And it's also not, hey, restrict the heck out of it and nobody's having any fun. There's got to be some way.

00:58:39:00 - 00:58:58:22
Speaker 2
To get some talents. And and, you know, people might look at as operators myself and think that we are the ruination of, of of outdoor recreation, you know, we're we're the guys taking advantage making the buck out of bringing people there. It's in my best interest to make sure that that trail is in the pristine condition, or that rivers in pristine condition.

00:58:59:00 - 00:59:24:09
Speaker 2
Otherwise people aren't going to do business with me if I offer a bad product. You know, as I said earlier, where the people business, but I offer that by product, people are going to want to do business with me. So, you know, guides and, and administrators that are in private enterprise that works in outdoor recreation. We are as much stewards of the land as the person where in the U.S. Forest Service album.

00:59:24:14 - 00:59:41:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, we're we're partners with, you know, Division of Parks and Wildlife or U.S. Forest Service or Bureau of Land Management. We're sitting right there with them, and we want to make sure that this land is protected. And those people who who feel different shouldn't be in our industry, period. You know, there's.

00:59:41:16 - 00:59:42:09
Speaker 1
A mutual respect.

00:59:42:10 - 01:00:06:01
Speaker 2
Yahoshua has to be. And as you train them and you bring them into our industry, as owners, we should be educating our staff about that every day and they see it. They go out there and they're like, oh, that's a lot of people. And then your idea as well, you know, the concern though is if you look at the business aspect then of this is capacities is that supply and demand.

01:00:06:03 - 01:00:37:17
Speaker 2
And if we limit capacity and the cost of doing business, the cost of entry or the cost to participate is going to grow, which then is going to limit who can recreate. So we have to find this balance to provide outdoor recreation to all demographics and all pocketbooks. And if we lose sight of that, will only be providing the experience to the people who can afford it.

01:00:37:19 - 01:01:05:23
Speaker 2
Which is what it's not is all about, you know, so again, it's it's, it's finding that balance. And that's where our industries, I think, struggling right now because the cost of doing business, the cost of insurance, labor costs, you know, everything's getting more expensive. But we're a luxury item. And, you know, people can decide whether they want a raft or go on a Jeep tour or go skiing.

01:01:06:01 - 01:01:13:04
Speaker 2
And if we price ourselves out of it, you know,

01:01:13:06 - 01:01:14:17
Speaker 1
We may not have something for you.

01:01:14:18 - 01:01:39:15
Speaker 2
You may not have a business a year or two from now. So it's finding that balance. And I'm passionate about getting, you know, all different demographics out in the outdoor recreation. And because they're the future guides. Yeah. And we got to get, you know, we got to make, capacities. So here's the problem with capacities and finding this balance.

01:01:39:20 - 01:02:17:03
Speaker 2
If you're only allowed to take 100 people on a particular section of river or in a particular climb or, or trail, then one thing you don't want to do is offer a discount, because the cost of doing business. So you want to sell your 100 folks of of what you're going to charge. But again, that's, you know, that's going to be tough then, because you're not going to provide the activity for the Boy Scouts or the church groups are the, you know, folks in different demographics of of wealth.

01:02:17:08 - 01:02:26:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. You might have a really killer potential guide coming up, but I've never got that experience. Yeah. And you, the world missed out on someone really incredible. Yeah, I can see, like.

01:02:26:04 - 01:02:53:18
Speaker 2
I'm all for, you know, education in the outdoors. If we can get the school districts understanding how important it is to get on the river in the sense of when you're studying science or geography or history and understanding the balance and and getting the school districts to embrace that. And here in Colorado, we're seeing that they're embracing outdoor rec as part of the the the educational side of being a school kid here locally.

01:02:53:20 - 01:02:55:05
Speaker 2
But we got to make it attainable.

01:02:55:09 - 01:03:27:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay. It's been killer, man. I got one thought to close that on. And I think just because you're unique we have this show is really about folks chasing their American dream, building it, sacrificing for it. And I see a guy here who's done it. He's doing it as not even American like. But, you know, originally and I think about so many folks that I talked to the team and I talked to, you know, we go to that we kind of do these like town halls when we go to places and we just they're they're casual, but they're still kind of a way to inspire each other.

01:03:27:07 - 01:03:45:04
Speaker 1
There's just a lot of folks that just quite frankly, have a lot of apprehensions or they're hesitant or I would just say maybe they just don't. They kind of don't possess that confidence, whatever it might be, they're always a reason they're not they haven't yet taken that step. But it didn't seem to scare you at all, you know.

01:03:45:04 - 01:04:03:14
Speaker 1
Or and if it did, it didn't seem to stop you. Maybe. I'm curious. Like, what is it about what this country has given you or being a part of it that you feel particularly either grateful for and inspired by? Like what you I mean, I could see you right now. You're just fired up about what you do and I often I find it hard to find Americans that are fired up about what they do.

01:04:03:14 - 01:04:04:22
Speaker 1
What is that?

01:04:05:00 - 01:04:44:07
Speaker 2
It's still the land of opportunity. It's still is it, you know, it this country I think unlike and I've traveled and this country is still the most entrepreneurial small business spirited country in the world, period. And I think people are. Excited about owning your own business and the confidence of having to do that. And I think, too, is the backbone, really of this country is small business.

01:04:44:09 - 01:05:17:14
Speaker 2
So whether it's whitewater rafting, it's owned in a restaurant or a retail store, I think people understand that and the opportunities there and I think, I still think it's there people. I think it's disappeared. Yeah. But I think maybe the uncertainty is, is I think, well, going back to this whole comment of what's the worst thing people can say is no, I think maybe we've lost a little bit of toughness in a sense of we don't like to hear the word no.

01:05:17:14 - 01:05:34:23
Speaker 2
I think we got to toughen up and hear the word no and and move on to the next question and get a yes eventually or figure out a way to to make that no or maybe and then make that maybe a yes. Because if you give up on the no. You're going nowhere.

01:05:35:00 - 01:05:37:15
Speaker 1
You go nowhere, you're going nowhere.

01:05:37:17 - 01:05:45:06
Speaker 2
So I think that's the one thing that that maybe, the yes is still here. You just gotta look for it.

01:05:45:06 - 01:05:46:06
Speaker 1
Anyway. There's a way to reach.

01:05:46:06 - 01:05:57:23
Speaker 2
There's a way to do it, and it's, you know, and that, again, the opportunity may not be here, but it might be just next to it. Yeah, you got to look for that. And that's where this country is awesome.

01:05:58:01 - 01:06:06:08
Speaker 1
Is. And is that why when you say you traveled around and you don't, what don't you see over there that you see here? Like, is it I think spirit or what is.

01:06:06:08 - 01:06:23:20
Speaker 2
Well, I think there's an Irish side of, of when you go out on your own or you become a business person on your own, people are like, you know, somebody helped them along the way or somebody gave them the nudge. You didn't go out there and do it on its own or, you know, or it's a begrudging side of like, oh, look at him being so successful.

01:06:23:20 - 01:06:45:05
Speaker 2
You know, it's like, you know, and but here in the States, people embrace that success and it's, you know, and, and it's that and there's so many different levels of success. You know, I don't do what I do to have the biggest house on the hill. I love what I do. And, you know, I'm lucky to be able to live here and do it.

01:06:45:07 - 01:07:08:06
Speaker 2
And, and then people like yourself are interested in hearing about somebody who started their own business. Yeah. And, and, and those people are still fascinated about that. And they want to learn from that. And hopefully people, you know, hear this for me and go, if one person here's what well, and goes out and asks the question tomorrow about, hey, I think I'm going to go do this, what do you think?

01:07:08:06 - 01:07:13:05
Speaker 2
And someone says no, and they move to the next person and then they get the yes and go do it. Hey.

01:07:13:06 - 01:07:13:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. You can't.

01:07:14:00 - 01:07:14:13
Speaker 2
Rent. Awesome.

01:07:14:13 - 01:07:16:15
Speaker 1
Now you did it. You did a great give back. Yeah.

01:07:16:17 - 01:07:44:11
Speaker 2
No, that's that's and that's what I tell. And and again, that's what I love about being in this industry too is I'm surrounded by generally 18 to 30 year olds and I'm there to say, you know, what's the worst thing that people can say? Yeah, you know, go get after it, you know, and those are the ones that, that maybe take no as and they go come in and they're like, oh, let's get over it.

01:07:44:13 - 01:07:51:13
Speaker 2
You know, I'll go rephrase the question. You might get a maybe and then rephrase it another way. You might get a yes. Yeah.

01:07:51:15 - 01:08:05:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Maybe that's something we can remember about the Irish spirit which a little bit you got to have that, had a, a guest on our show and he said, you got it. And the name is TJ. And I love the way he puts it is you got to have the. There's like a dog in you. You got to have that fight.

01:08:05:16 - 01:08:23:15
Speaker 1
Great entrepreneurs and folks who build and own companies. Yeah. Have that fighting spirit. That's something that just it's like getting punched in the face and realizing I can get back after it and go do it again. I'm not taking it personally and not taking it personally. Yeah. And going so well can. Thanks for all you do. You mean really getting you here today?

01:08:23:15 - 01:08:41:06
Speaker 1
Not only I, I'm just personally in love with and fascinating. I've always had a lot of respect for the outdoor industry. Being a guy who's led teams through the mountains and, you know, kind of understand what that's like to be in the outdoors and having lives at stake, while also trying to show a time that can change people's lives.

01:08:41:08 - 01:08:53:15
Speaker 1
It's not an easy gig to balance, but it seems like you've been doing it gracefully. Now. I got over 160 folks in your, you know, in your company, and you guys are growing me. And so thanks for all you do. And I can see why, as I look around here, it's easy to get up every morning and go to work.

01:08:53:15 - 01:08:55:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me here.

01:08:55:16 - 01:09:21:22
Speaker 1
Thanks for tuning in to the American Operator Podcast, where we celebrate the backbone of America small business owners and operators like you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so you'll never miss out on more of these stories and insights from people who keep our community strong. Until next time, keep building, keep operating and keep America moving forward.