The Fatigue Factor: How Tired Crews Make Dangerous Decisions Part 1 | Ep 68

Welcome back to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, brought to you by Vertical HeliCASTS and partnered with Valor Plus. 

Today's episode is a special collaboration with our friends from the Hangar Z Podcast, and we're tackling a topic that impacts every one of us in aviation — fatigue.  

Joining us for this outstanding panel discussion is Hangar Z Podcast host Jack Schonely, along with highly respected aviator and former HEMS pilot Woody McClendon, whose decades of operational experience bring valuable insight to this important conversation.  

Fatigue is truly the danger you can't see. Unlike weather, mechanical issues, or other operational hazards, fatigue can quietly affect our judgment, decision-making, situational awareness, and overall performance long before we recognize its impact. 

Whether you're a pilot, tactical flight officer, medical crew member, mechanic, dispatcher, or supervisor, fatigue affects all of us differently — and it becomes an even greater challenge in the shift-work environments common throughout public safety aviation.

The reality is that fatigue is not a possibility — it is an inevitability. The question is not if fatigue will contribute to an incident or accident in public safety aviation, but when. That is why open and honest conversations like this one are so important.

In this episode, we'll discuss fatigue mitigation strategies, flight risk assessment tools, crew readiness, organizational responsibility, and personal accountability. Most importantly, our guests share real-world experiences and lessons learned from careers spent operating in demanding environments where fatigue was often a constant factor.

This is a candid, informative, and thought-provoking discussion that every aviation professional should hear.

So settle in and join us as we explore one of the most significant — and often overlooked — threats to aviation safety. This is the Valor Flight Crew Podcast in collaboration with the Hangar Z Podcast, and the conversation starts right now.

Read the related article by Tania Glenn - Sleep Under Stress (in the Spring 2026 issue of Valor Plus. 

Thank you to our sponsors Airbus, Coptersafety and Precision Aviation Group.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to a special collaboration podcast with the Hangers E Podcast and the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, brought to you by Vertical Helicast, partnered with Vertical Valor Plus, and also partner with Echo Every Coast Helicopter Operations. I'm your host, Jack Shanley, but we're gonna also have a couple other hosts involved in this because of this collaboration. Uh, and that's from the Valor Flight Crew podcast, Mike Fidaley. Mike, how are you? I'm doing great. How are you, Jack? Great. And Blake Schreider. Blake, how's it going, man? I'm doing good, sir. How about you? Very good. Uh the three of us are gonna kind of host, try host this uh and on this topic that we're gonna cover. And we asked.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

I don't know if we can live up to you, Jack.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

You've already surpassed me in so many ways, Mike. I mean, you're the radio, the FM voice, you you got me beat, dude. Um, we were talking about that. We're gonna have Mike do a uh a sleep app. Yeah, and he's gonna just say hi. I'm Mike Fidale, and I'm gonna count cheap for you. One. Two.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I would buy that app in a heartbeat. I just want you to know.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

Me too.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Me too. I want a person who didn't get to listen to me enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Uh but to help us in this conversation, we wanted somebody who's been there, done that in many ways. And we invited Woody McClendon to join us. Woody, welcome to Hanger Z and the Vertical Flight Crew Podcast. It's it's hard for me to say because I'm not used to saying it. It's on the academy. I know, I'll look at that. How's it going, Woody?

SPEAKER_03 1:41

It's uh it's it's just great. It's uh I've been looking forward to this now for a while. I've what a you know, what a great group to to get together and share a topic that we're all uh very passionate about.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Yeah, absolutely. And it's why we asked you, Woody. I mean, you've got a lot of experience, and we're gonna get to that. And we're gonna Woody's gonna have an opportunity to introduce himself to to all of our followers and listeners and uh in a minute, but we want to start with the topic and and really just get a hook in here. Uh and this topic for this podcast is fatigue. It's fatigue. It's something that affects the entire rotorcraft industry uh in in almost every way from military pilots to commercial pilots to people flying out to oil rigs, to uh EMS, to hems, to law enforcement, search and rescue. If you're flying at night on odd hours, whether you're a pilot or a crew member, this podcast is for you. Because this topic is something you deal with every day, uh that you're that you're working, even on your days off. Which I mean, even on days off, you're dealing with this topic. Uh, so we're gonna take a deep dive into fatigue. And to start, we're gonna go around the horn and uh and just ask each panelist here, Mike, why are we talking about fatigue tonight?

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Man, that's a great question. And I and I think that this is something that we can all relate to every single day, just like you said. Like, I feel like I don't have a day off anymore, right? But we even when I do go to work, I I I'm waking up in the morning, I'm getting myself ready, and I'm just like, man, I am exhausted and not feeling this. And I've noticed that I'm not the only one. Uh, and I think that, you know, for the past couple of years, I've been doing a bit of an assessment of what our uh frat scores are uh for the entire program. And I've noticed that doing those frat scores, you know, one of the common things is just as an industry, as a program, how tired we are. And and I I think that we're already going into this with that certain level of fatigue already. And then when we add in the extra stressors of this job and doing it at nighttime and waking up at three o'clock in the morning and having to be our best every single time we go out the door, it's not an easy task and it's a lot of pressure to do that. Um, but I I mean, I know for me personally, I feel tired. I I'm I'm exhausted most days, uh, especially now taking on a new role. Life has been absolutely crazy. But, you know, loving every minute of it is just that it's a lot. And I think that that is shared across the industry. I don't care what seat you're sitting in in the helicopter. I think that we can all relate to this. And I feel it's such an important topic because it's something that for the longest time I think we couldn't talk about.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yes, yes, and we're gonna get into that. Uh how that how that's changed. Um, kind of like the mental wellness side of things, how that's changed. It's the same thing with fatigue. Uh, and it's and it's part of the mental wellness thing, it's a big part of it. 100%. Um, yeah. Blake, why are we talking about fatigue?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Because I'm tired. Yeah, exactly. I'm tired. And you know what? Like I taught all day today. This it's like perfect, right? And you brought up such a a good point. I I feel like if I'm tired, you're tired, Mike's tired, Woody, you're probably tired. You're like it, we're all tired, right? Because we don't like I when we get into this field and when when we do this profession, there's all these other aspects that come with it, and especially when you do it for a long period of time, the first few years that they just they're there, you're learning a lot, like you're tired, but I think you mask it with like that adrenaline, and you're you're learning so much, and there's a lot that that's coming at you, then over time it kind of sets in, and then it's it's fatigue, you know. And and I think that if I'm tired, I many of us that this is not our only role, you know, within either that organization, and we have other commitments. Yeah. I I know when I started, I didn't have a family, it was just me. It was only me. That's changed in 13 years, you know. I now have a family, I have a stepdaughter, I have two dogs, I have a wife, and I also do a lot of teaching, you know, and and there's so many people that are listening that are so actively involved. Mike's got a new role, you know. He has to hire, he has to teach, he has to do so many other things, and also be a clinician. And I think a lot of us wear many different hats. And I think we we don't we don't ever really take them off. There's always a hat that's on at some point, and it it really becomes our new normal. And you mentioned days off. I'm not really sure what those are, and they sound really cool. They do. I'd love to have one. They sound great.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Very well stated, uh, Blake. I love that you that you brought in the it's not just the work responsibilities, you know, that that affect this topic. It's what you do when you leave work, you know, going to soccer games and ballet lessons and and you know, hockey practice at 0600. And you know, it's that stuff too that affects it affects you when you come back to work teaching. Boy, I can relate to that. Man, on so many days off, I would leave and teach, go teach for two, three days, travel, come back, go right back to work. Those were my three days off, weren't weren't days off. So really good point, uh, Blake. We will, again, we'll deep deeper dive into that uh shortly. But Woody, why are we talking about fatigue?

SPEAKER_03 7:35

So I'm doing it from a happy position of retirement, but it's my my very last flying job of 40 years of flying, um five years of that last was five years flying for Native Air in Arizona in an airstore. And it was probably one of the most significant jobs I've had, including, I mean, flying jets all over the world and all that. But but it was there that I really came up against this whole issue of of these late-night flights into hostile terrain, uh uh, and thinking to myself, you know better than this. What are you doing? Yeah. And it was it it that there were deep, deep challenges to that. And uh and I when you when you tried to share it with the other pilots, uh it was amazing the differences and in how they reacted. And basically behind the mask, which took various forms, they were all struggling with it. Uh and um so anyway, it it was I think one of the most significant experiences of my entire life, trying to figure out how to be on the game, beyond my game in super challenging flying circumstances, and um and realizing that I just hadn't had enough rest.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah. Yeah, so true. And and like like we said, everybody on this panel knows exactly what you're talking about. Everybody that's worked shift work knows exactly what you're talking about. And that's that's what I'd like to answer that question by saying I I think this is important to talk about because things need to change. Uh, and they have, and we'll discuss that how that's changed over time, but it needs to continue to change and be looked at in a different way because this is serious stuff. Uh public safety aviation, particularly, you're you're getting called to do a mission, middle of the night. Your body is not agreeing with that, and but you're going. And you know, you're going. And you have like like like you said, Blake, you got to be 100%, no matter which position you're in. You can't, there's no mulligans. There's no, can I get another shot at that approach? Can I get another shot at that uh IV I just put in there? There's none of that. Exactly. It's you got to get it right the first time, and that's hard enough under the best conditions. But when you're tired and fatigued and things aren't working quite right, uh, it just exaggerates all of it. So my big thing is that uh I want to talk to all of all of us need to talk today about the changes and the the improvements that we have made and how it needs to continue. I can speak from the law enforcement side that this is looked at in a variety of ways, depending on the unit, because there are law enforcement agencies out there that do work a 24-hour shift. And you know, they they do, and they they do and they do sleep. It's like a firehouse, you know, kind of thing. Uh, but there's still, I would say, most that go in for an eight-hour or a 10-hour shift, and then they go home and there's different shifts, and fatigue is just uh not even talked about, or it's just oh you you work just under the rug. Yeah, you work 11 at night till seven in the morning. Okay, just do it. And well, what about fatigue? What about it? You're a cop, you know, and that's kind of the attitude. And so that's why I think this is one of the reasons why this is important to me, because I I saw this firsthand where it was not just frowned upon, but I mean, there were people that were hostile about sleeping on duty as a cop, a pilot or TFO, at after you landed at uh 0400 and just closing your eyes in a chair was like, what are you doing? You know, it's like that that's so that needs to change. And and it is, you know, in some places. But um, so that's the topic, ladies and gentlemen. I mean, we're gonna be talking about fatigue and all aspects. Uh, there's a lot, a lot of different angles here. Let's start with this before we go to the backgrounds of our everybody. Let's start with this. There's a saying, you've all heard it, I've heard it. Uh it is not if, but when your unit will have an incident or accident with fatigue being a contributing factor. That that's true in aviation, period, uh, but certainly in public service aviation. Um it is not if, it's when you're gonna have an incident or accident where fatigue's a contributing factor. Um what do you what do you think about that that saying? What is that what what hits you when you when you hear that?

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Well, it's the ball of truth, and you know, companies and agencies, um well, I mean, you know, like air medical companies and law enforcement agencies are intent on presenting an external image of everything's fine all the time. We all yeah, there are no problems. We have every we have everything under control. And and uh and they don't. And I think the that as you get into that as a crew member, and and and you know, it early on you realize this is not right. I mean, this is crazy. But then you you do you deal with it because that's the schedule, and nobody it's non-negotiable. And um and even though you know it's dangerous, you you show up and do it. Yeah. And and I think you then we we all have have had to just deal with that and and realize that our employers don't want they're not gonna talk about it. They are not going to talk about it. And and it's I think it's darkly humorous in the air medical business that every air medical crew member knows this is a an ongoing crisis, and the companies go like everything's fine. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I think right there, guys, that's the that's the dilemma that we've all lived with. And um I I mean, you know, if you say the obvious answer is, well, what do we do about it? Well, none of us can do anything about it. You know, we're in roles where we're serving, and and we all notice when our friends get promoted out, then when you talk to them about them, they they're kind of give you that smile. Well, I'm not anymore. So uh tough on you.

SPEAKER_05 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Is that why you've had that smirk on your face since we started this podcast?

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Yep, that's it. But it's I mean, in in my long, very career in aviation, it's the only place, only venue I've ever been where what I viewed as a uh critical situation was swept under the rug. And is swept under the rug. And you when you look at it, you think there's a there's a morbid curiosity, why is this, why does this happen? So I mean, I guess you know, we've all seen the company say, well, we've made great improvements, and you think, like what?

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Yeah, did we? Did we really?

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Yeah, yeah. I guess I missed that meeting. But um yeah, so I guess in truth, part of this subject is if we've made improvements, what are they, and in fact, do they make any difference? I mean, if you look at things like NBGs, yeah, they did improve it. And companies have, you know, the companies made, you know, I was in that period when we transitioned to Godw's, and and the employer, our employer and all people in the industry, this is a huge breakthrough. And I thought, it's better than what we had before, but it's not a huge breakthrough.

SPEAKER_05 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

In real life. And uh I think as we go along and talk about our various personal struggles to to try to help the problem, it's always gonna it it kind of circles back to that. Oh, yeah, well that's and it's really not a problem.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah, it does. Blake, what what is that if it's it's not if but when phrase what what jumps into your head when you hear that?

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I think the biggest thing that stands out for me is why hasn't it happened to me yet? Yeah, am I am I doing something right or am I lucky? You know, or or is it both? I want to say that I'm I'm doing things right. But you know, as we were talking about this, I had this thought, and just throwing this out there as strictly an analogy, right? Just hypothetical. If your house caught fire, or somebody hypothetically, a house caught fire, and you did everything right, you got out, you called the authorities, you called 911, and it it either someone didn't show up or it took them like 20 minutes to show up. And if you were to ask, hey, what what took so long? And if the answer that you got was uh the crew is pretty tired today, they weren't able to get to that fire, you know, like and I I say that because that that's just the honest truth of as we're talking about this of obviously that's not the answer anybody wants to hear, right? Like that's why we are here to do this job and to serve, right? But how like and to think about that statement, it's not if but when. Okay, so it took 20 minutes for someone to get there and and assist with this house fire, right? But I don't know. Um it's such a really hard balance because we are those of us in this field, and and this will definitely cross over into not just I think the pre-hospital realm. I think this from a from a medical perspective, this carries over into hospital, it carries into other various forms of transport, you know, just as much as this dovetails into law enforcement and even military, you know. Yes. Like so, how do we balance that? How do we balance being ready and having crews be ready to respond when they're called, but also just not be fatigued, right? But it's it's public service, right? I'm a public servant, right? I I do these things to serve my community. So when I think about that, I like to think that I'm doing things right. And I would like to think that if it hasn't happened to me yet, I would like to think that I can only control the things that I can control. So I'm gonna do the best that I can. And outside of those factors that I can't control, I would like to think that I am doing the best to show up to my shift well rested. Right. Well, we already know that's a strike one because I just talked about it. Like that ain't happening, right? Uh, did I eat well? No, I'm drinking a soda right now, you know. You know, I'm having a zin and a coffee in the morning just to give my butt up and and rolling, right? So, so what am I really doing as a like I'm showing up when I'm called, right? And I'm there. But you know, am I am I really being am I being the best that I can for my patients and not only my patients, but my my fellow crew members, you know? Am I being the best lookout uh when I'm up front with uh the pilot, you know? Um am I being the best at you know, backing up my crew member because I'm showing up tired, you know, or maybe my mind is just uh, you know, like you know, maybe I had an argument with my wife, or you know, we had a disagreement, or I'm just coming in and I'm angry about something, and that carries over, you know, or maybe there's a call, you know, and I think all of us can relive this. There was a call that's just eating at us, you know, that it didn't really, it didn't sit well. And that just carries over. So yeah, it's not if but when. I don't know, when's it gonna happen? You know, am I gonna be, will I be lucky? Am I doing things right? So I don't know. And and I think about that because I want to be that person that when is called upon to do my job, that I'm there to do it, and I'm gonna do it well. I'm gonna do it to the absolute 100% expectation that I signed up for. I I don't know. I want to make sure that I'm doing it correctly, but I I think that that as we talk about this further, I think we can find some ways. I don't know that we're gonna find all the answers, and and and maybe we're gonna come up with way more questions than even you know answers. But but maybe we steer it in the direction of like we should have some difficult conversations with ourselves as not only public servants responders, but whether you work in a hospital or whether you work an overnight shift work at a at a factory, you know, like people everywhere, everybody's fatigued, and maybe we can come up with ways to just bring awareness to if I speak up, maybe someone can help step into that place when I'm tired. Maybe there's someone that can fill that role of when someone's called, but they don't have to wait 20 minutes for someone to show up and you know put their house out that was on fire, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

That's good, but like good stuff in there. Mike, you know, same phrase, same question. What's your reaction when you hear that? It for you personally.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

So I I think in in some regards I I have two reactions. My first one is anger. I've lost too many friends in this industry. Too many people that I've been close with too many colleagues and it's from across the country and it doesn't it it shouldn't and it doesn't get any easier. And I and I I don't you know I can't say that all of these factors or all these uh instances have been related to fatigue. Some may have been some may not have been but it it's just a hard pill for me to swallow. And and I think of it in you know the the other aspect of it is I look at it from we plan for this in every other aspect of what we do. If I'm going out for a critical patient I'm constantly planning for when things are going to go wrong right like I'm constantly wondering when are their hemodynamics going to change? What when when are they you know it's not a matter of if they're going to have a problem it's when they're going to have a problem and am I going to be ready for that so why do I not always plan for the same thing in my own life and the things that I'm doing.

unknown 23:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Right? Um and then the other part of it I look at is like you know Murphy's alive and well oh yeah yes and I always say if I ever meet him in a dark alley with no witnesses I'll be with you.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

I'll I'll get the shovel and the and the uh the lime you know it's like we we just the the this job is inherently dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

We get that we know that right I don't think anybody enters into this job not recognizing that this is a dangerous career.

unknown 23:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

And I think that that's an important piece of this puzzle because we all accept that there is some risk involved in it. But are we always doing everything we can to avoid the when we know there's the if but are we always doing what we can to avoid the when I think that as an industry as a program as an individual there are things that we can all do that are going to prevent that when and we can do a much better job at doing it if we start having conversations like this. And that's what we're here for at the end of the day is being able to have that conversation. And Blake I agree with you we may walk away from this conversation having more questions than answers. But this is the start of where this needs to go because we need to start having these open and honest conversations because if we don't we're going to continue losing colleagues and friends and family in instances like this.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah exactly and and I like that you brought that up Mike you know the you know the the friends that you have lost and the colleagues and people in your industry that you never even met but you know they're in your industry and it means something to you to lose them. And fatigue is one of those things that you will probably never know if you know you just won't know if it was truly a factor in that. Sometimes it does come out uh because of circumstances or something a witness or something but but most times you just wonder right you don't know it you just wonder I wonder if you know that was a that was a long shift they had multiple calls that night I wonder if that was a contributing factor even though the NTSB comes out with the report and says oh it was it was this that failed you know this this failed and they you know our weather or something well did fatigue affect the decision making to get into that weather you know it yeah that's what's so frustrating about fatigue it's we don't know so much there there's so much we don't know that's a better way to put it there is so much that we do not know about this topic and uh and it's it could be a factor more often than we even realize.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

And and I think that's the I think that's the key though Jack is that you know we'll never know how much it truly affects some of these things but it's the fact that can we raise the awareness about it? Can we raise that individual or that crew awareness of how fatigued they may be to have them give them solutions to make better decisions in that moment, better tools to make the decisions in that moment and can we learn from each other in that way?

SPEAKER_03 26:36

And I think that's really where the key in is with all of this well I got to jump in on that Mike I think that so many of these conversations we're sort of looking for global solutions. There there are there just are not our employers aren't going to change what we do. They're not going to do anything for us. And and so I mean I think your point you just brought up it's up to us to to figure out any kind of mitigating circumstance it's gonna save us us all of us and try to share that and and and integrate it into whatever we're doing integrate into our working lives.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah true when we we so if we know that fatigue is the man I wonder how much that that really played into it. I could speak for myself like three things today that a hundred percent like how tired I was today that absolutely played into decisions I either made or did not make today right so from the let me throw out like the the the medical aspect right this is no secret not a neurosurgeon never have been never will be never claim to be right but like what happens to those like neurosurgical intense cases that are like 30 hour operations right like it does that neurosurgeon participate actively for that entire process I don't know I've never seen one all the way through I've seen some documentaries I've seen some things it looks like they do so how how would such a complicated uh surgical procedure right some of these things that are so intense it's a whole team of providers physicians nurses techs uh there's such a huge support system right for something that can be insanely complex you know for some type of uh intense procedure right and it maybe in neuro is just what I was throwing out there right it could be maybe something cardiovascular whatever it is but either way like my point is is if there's a known inherent like very tough task very tough procedure that's going to require everybody to be at their top if they plan they rehearse they practice they do so many things they do training right and Mike you said it it's not if when the patient takes that dive so I mean that's the way that we look at things and how how are we prepared? Well we train for it we do recurrent trainings we do all these things for you guys as pilots like how do I know that if I have an engine failure that I'm gonna be able to you know follow the proper procedure and do an auto rotation well you train for it you do all those things. But Mike you brought you brought up the best question why the hell do I not prepare my like why do I get it so wrong in my everyday life like not at work right and maybe wrong isn't like the best word. Maybe it's how do I why do I do it so well at work or prepare for it but then maybe I kind of fall short other places. Yeah that's a good way to put it yeah and why does that happen? Is it just because that I am so tired that I'm like ah you know what I like do I have to then like consciously make decisions on where my attention is going to be more focused than at other times. Yeah. You know if I'm doing a 24 hour shift I know when the sun's up I'm great and everybody I work with will test I am Cinderella soon as midnight hits outfit changes. I really hope that you have a helmet tag with that on it Cinderella I don't look as good as she did in the dress but it fits oh that's correct but the reality is like you know I like it why? Because I'm tired you know because like we do so much during the day right so we do a lot of things but we like our bodies just all of us human beings like we're not meant to be awake. That's right now there are those few people that have you know been on night shift for their entire careers and some people can absolutely thrive that way. God bless you I I give you all the credit in the world if you're that night shifter for like you know many many years and you can make that happen that's so wonderful. I wish I had that I like nighttime it's cooler outside um it's not as bright uh there's not as many people and we all know way more interesting things interesting things happen at night um but I'm also really tired at night so that fatigue aspect like I just I don't know I think that question really is like what are all these things that are are doing that are influencing do I get to consciously decide then like where I can spend my time and focus and does it lack elsewhere and then how safe am I being if that's really that practice.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Well I I love that you brought that up a couple things that you brought up like I want to touch on from my perspective on this on this question. I you mentioned there's some some people that can just work that night shift you know and it doesn't you know they're just do it their whole careers. I was one of those and I don't think I was any better at it I mean I had the same issues I just liked it so much that I gutted it out. And and when I was on it for long periods of time does it get a little easier it does. But it doesn't solve all the problems because you have days off you know and that just throws a wrench in everything. And now you gotta live your life and you got to go to your kids hockey game. You know it's it throws a wrench in everything. So which brings me to something that jumped out of me you said I wrote it down difficult conversation with ourselves we need to have a difficult conversation with ourselves I've had that conversation with myself I had it and I will tell you that I tell you I can't tell you the date but I can tell you it was a month before I stopped working graveyard shifts because in a heli piloting a helicopter with a tactical flight officer over the city of Los Angeles at 0330 and all of a sudden boom I nodded out and you catch yourself we've all done that in our cars at some point I'm sure well I did it I did it at 600 feet and terrifying it was oh oh my god it was terrifying and there was no it was very short very brief I came right out of it my partner just went you all right I said I am now because I've got an adrenaline push because it just scared that crap out of me I can tell you it was I I remember the TFO it was Brian Shipstead and he said are you all right I said no I'm man I got a full day's sleep today. That was one of the best sleeps I've had in a long time didn't matter didn't matter for whatever reason my body said I've had enough of this and it a lot of it has to do with age too and that's the night I went this is a younger guy's pilot's game uh to work this shift and I need not to do this I need to because I could choose we I was lucky we we had a system LAPD is really good with with shift work. You pick the watch you want to go on and you stay on that shift until you get bumped off of it. And depending on the situation sometimes you can stay on a shift for six eight months even a year without getting bumped off of it. Especially on night watch graveyard shift because so many people avoid it like the plague. I mean where they go absolutely not if I have a choice I am never working that shift great I love that shift and I loved it for the same reasons so you match a plague it's cooler the action on police work is all between you know 200 and 0400.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

I mean all the good stuff when all the cool stuff happened is dark.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Yes I mean it's it's it's action I worked it in canine my whole time in canine five years straight worked graveyards it's 200 to 04 was was my canine time and then I went right to air support and I stayed on graveyards. And so I love the difficult conversation with ourselves line that you that you brought up. I had that conversation with myself I had it with my partner because Brian and I were friends and I could confide I said man I I am sorry about that. I mean I apologize um and I had it with my with my spouse I said hey you know Tracy enough of this I gotta I gotta go to days for a while and and not do this anymore I'm I can't do it. I don't I I want to do it but I can't that was a challenging thing after working so much of that shift over 25 plus years at that point to to get rid of that but in hindsight I am thankful I had that conversation I am thankful I had I went in and did something about it and didn't go back to that shift uh it just wasn't I didn't want to put anybody at risk including myself but my partner the people I'm flying over right you know so really really good difficult have that difficult conversation with yourself uh boy oh boy that's gonna be a very powerful line that people are going to take away from this podcast today I believe because it it hit me it hit me hard great man four good perspectives uh you know on this topic already but we're gonna shift gears quickly before we get back to kick into deeper fatigue and you know the hanger's e audience knows who I am the Valor Flight crew podcast audience knows who Mike and Blake are uh but we're gonna each give our background and and and if you listen to the helicopter podcast with Halsey Schneider you've seen Woody on his podcast so you might know about Woody but we're gonna each give uh quick backgrounds and or our flying backgrounds and how it relates to this topic.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Let's start with you Mike tell us about yourself a little bit and and how you know how your background and experience kicks you into this this situation where fatigue is is uh something that it's important to talk about I started an EMS back in the days where it was still known as earn money sleeping I swear to God I've never heard that that is I was back when I was 17 those number of years ago and um no I've been in healthcare now for 27 years 27 crazy years uh started off an EMS ended up putting my thought myself through nursing school and uh kind of fell in love with um medicine I I've been obsessed with helicopters though even longer than that uh since I've been about five years old I've been obsessed with helicopters and so it was just always a a goal once I started in medicine to you know be flying by the time I turned 30 and I I made that goal I think by about two months. So that that worked out well in my favor there but it was always goals to have and um I haven't looked back since I've really been enjoying the flight world. I've been flying now all together for just over 14 years for various companies and really in I enjoy the autonomy. I enjoy the responsibility I enjoy the views not going to lie it's a great office view. But it's just been something that you know every single day I feel absolutely blessed to be able to do this job and and it's a privilege and an honor to be able to practice critical care medicine and do it at 3000 feet and make the difference that we can for each of those patients that we encounter great stuff lots of experience there talking Mike wow good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Blake tell the audience who Blake Schreider is my story's not as cool as Mike's uh he did the he did the cool thing and like started when like he knew what he wanted to do and he was 17. I was just happy that I found matching pants and a shirt like like when I got to the end of high school that I felt that actually looked decent. But no I um I I I got into this field kind of you know by accident and uh just kind of trying to figure out how to get a cool government job and um I started an EMS 20 years ago um I was the young age of 23. So if you're good at math you know my age. And then it just kind of blossomed from there. Like I kind of always had I'd like science and medicine and stuff but I never really kind of pictured myself as being a paramedic. I just thought driving an ambulance was really cool and you got paid pretty good. But was I wrong on both those parts like said earn money sleeping um I was I it was like you earned some money sleeping. But I will say since then things have obviously gotten a lot better. But yeah I started off as a EMT went to paramedic school and just really just blossomed from there and I always saw the helicopter come in the flight crew I was obsessed it was really the onesie uh that did it for me. Thought it looked really cool. Yeah uh the red white and blue onesie super awesome and then yeah I just I I I you know just did things to really kind of take extra classes and learn and um really got lucky and blessed to test get a spot and I've been flying for 13 years now and met up with Mike and the whole Echo crew and team um started uh being able to help instruct and uh it's just no pun intended taking off uh didn't uh from there.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

I wish I had the rim shot button like John has I know John has actually the panel is down in a in a suitcase waiting to get back to John. I should I have no excuse. I should have that panel up there and press that button.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

But yeah that's just kind of where it's been and I've just really had a passion and I love having these conversations. I I I like Mike said I I feel truly blessed to do this and um I just want this industry to be safer and better and I want to see more people not only have the same success that I've had it's an incredible job and it's super cool. And I want it to be uh like I want that longevity to be there. Like I want people to be able to work hard get to this point and then you get to run with it and then you can really kind of give back and make it better. So that's kind of my hope and yeah here I am.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Outstanding on a podcasting here you are for sure and you're and you're doing just what your goal is there. Both you Mike and Blake you are making a difference in your industry I was thrilled to be able to witness that firsthand at Echo last year in Louisville and see the reaction of people to the two of you and and boy they they just love you guys. And I know why I mean you're you're doing a great job with the podcast and sharing information bringing on great guests to to uh talk about a wide variety of topics in that industry and uh so mission accomplished Blake we're learning from you guys so but thank you we are we are you guys are like legends in this we're babies I'll tell you that that's very kind but uh John and I feel very lucky we talk about it all the time how grateful we are at uh bringing on people that just are we learned so much. You guys have found that too we've talked about it on uh on the podcast with you guys where we've joined up and about you know guests and how they affect us and uh and and the things you learn and uh you know I I I think about like Dr. Tanya Glenn I think about her almost daily with something that she has said on the podcast. And we're gonna talk about Tanya Moore here in a minute because she just wrote an article about sleep under stress is the title. We're gonna talk about her article that's in vertical in a minute. But before we get there uh Woody you you've got a long career uh but give us the give us the reader's digest of your career because we'd be here all day with with Woody for for this he's done some stuff I think he just called you old I didn't see I Woody knows I don't call him old Woody knows that he's experienced and wise uh Woody tell us about your tell our audience about you well I started flying when I was a teenager and by the time I was I was instructing at 19 and uh then I got an aeronautical engineering degree went to work for Boeing flight test which was my dream job and uh Boeing is of course like working for the governments.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

And uh I discovered that about five years into it and thought okay I gotta I g I gotta move on here. Yeah. I'll never slow down to the to these guys. And then the rattled around aviation ended up in ended up flying corporate jets and helicopters fairly early on. And um and it's been a mix of those disciplines for all the years since then. In the mid-80s, I knew some people at UCLA, and uh and Med Star program was going through a minor crisis, and the guy who's in charge of it was the Dr. Morgan, who was the head of the emergency services division, the medical center. And he said, Do you know anything about paramedical flying? And I said, No, it's flying. And he said, that's good enough. We need we we need we gotta do something different here. And so we transitioned, I took over the Met Star program and transitioned it from using a vendor helicopter and vendor pilots to leasing a helicopter and having the pilots employees of uh the medical center. And um and so we acquired a Bell 222 and got it configured for us and ran that program. It was great for about uh six years. And um and so the the interest the thing that killed it was noise because UCLA Medical Center is in in the center of one of the most posh resident that residential areas in all of Southern California. And those people really didn't like having that noisy helicopter rattle over their houses at three o'clock in the morning. And and so they canceled. One day they canceled the program. And all the nurses had come from the ER, so they it was easy for them. We had four pilots in the lear in the learjet and four in the helicopter, and of course we were all on the street. They they gave us a nice severance, but I ended up in Michigan flying at 412 for care flight for a while, and then um ended up back in the jet business until late in my career when I got talked into going to work for Native Air by a buddy of mine who had gone to work there, and he said, Hey, this is great, you ought to try this. And I thought, why not? And um and that was five years of a totally different experience for me. So this you know, there I was out there in the say star getting dragged out of bed at three o'clock in the morning and going to halfway to Albuquerque. And um of course you can imagine down in that country at three o'clock in the morning. Once you leave the lines of Phoenix, there aren't any lights until you get to Albuquerque. Yeah. And um, and I thought I mean the whole five years I thought, what do I do? Why am I out here? I know better. And but I I stayed with it because I loved the job, I loved what we were doing. You know, we had so many, so many missions that were memorable. Um and so I I just stayed with it and uh and it and accumulated a lot of uh pretty hairy experiences in the process, which you guys all know about, and uh from the book, where you know about the hairiest ones. But it I think it was maybe one of the most significant, that five years was maybe one of the most significant periods of my life in terms of the challenges that that that never went away. I mean, when you showed up for a shift, this is what you were gonna do. And uh which is you know kind of what brought us all together here. We're all we're all dealing with that challenge and knowing, as we've all agreed, there's it's not ever going to get any better. And so the only the only uh choice we have is to figure out internal disciplines, sharing with our uh partners to hopefully minimize the uh the uh exposure to hazard. And I I mean I think it's a it's a it's a it's one of the most fascinating experiences. Certainly was one of the most fascinating experiences in my entire career in terms of human factors. And and and you know, I I started writing for vertical right when Mike Reno started the magazine, and and on and off have been working with vertical ever since then. Anyway, I'm it I'm I'm really I'm I'm I'm happy and honored to be here with you guys to try to bring the pilot perspective, EMS pilot perspective into what is a uh situation we all know is tough. It's just tough. And it's never gonna get any better. Um and and and so we have these constant conversations about, well, what are we gonna do? And the answer is we're gonna somehow have to figure out how to fly and operate safely and take care of patients. I it's I I think it's a fascinating thing that we all know this is a big problem. We all know there isn't anything we can do about it, and and yet it's it's that's the way it's always gonna be. Um, you know, the Europeans fly EMS in such a different way. They fly EC-145's two-pilot IFR. And and so for them, there's no, they don't care. It's they're just like a jet charter company. They fly night or day, it doesn't matter. They have a very structured set of rules of how they do it. They figure out how to, you know, do an IFR departure and then figure out how to do an approach to somewhere close to the scene, and either work their way over to the scene or land somewhere and you hand on springs of the patient. And and they got it down, it's an airline. And uh and you think, well, we or so will we ever have that in this country? No, we won't. Yeah, the majority of this business is gonna continue to be community-based flying. So so I think we'll I I think it's incumbent on us to continue to have these conversations in every venue we can find. And and keep the that's and you keep the awareness up that this is, hey guys, this is not normal. This is not a normal existence. It is it is fraught with challenges that we have to meet every day, every night, if we're gonna stay alive. It's I mean, it's that simple. It's not, well, how do we stay happy in our job? It's how do we stay alive? And I mean that's a much uh that's a much more fundamental pursuit when you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah. Um I mean, I'm happy if I'm alive, so I'm I'm good with that. If I can find a way to do it, stay safe and be alive. I think that would keep me happy.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

When you and when you think about it, we we keep circling back around in this dialogue in what we're talking about. The only possible mitigating circumstance that we can bring to this is we have to have a constant awareness that we're living on the edge. And that we have to depend on our own skills and discipline to make that flight at three o'clock in the morning work out right for us and the patient.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Another important takeaway right there, uh, that is what you just said, Woody, is so important. We have to depend on ourselves. It's not gonna be the boss, it's not gonna be the captain, it's not gonna be, you know, the owner. It's it comes down to us. You know, are we ready? Are we are are we prepared for this? Are we is our fatigue affecting us in a way that's that uh that is not good? Uh we have to police ourselves and and and work on it individually. Because you're right, it's not gonna come from outside or the top, you know. They just don't like this topic.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

How many of your supervisors are like, hey, did you nap today?

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

I haven't seen you nap. I need you to go, I need you to go take a nap for like an hour and a half before you come back and and get your TPS reports in. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

Oh, like nobody's nobody's saying that. No, nobody says that. Uh that's funny. What would you you brushed on it, and we're not gonna let you off the hook here. You brushed on, well, it's in the book. Well, what book is that? And it means that Woody McClendon is a author. Tell us about the book. Mike held it up because we've had we have the book.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Well, what's that? We all have it. There's no way to get it.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

So we'll talk about it. But the point is, yeah, what we we have it. So and and you but you authored a book uh about your your wisdom and your experiences. That's important. That's important that you were that it was probably good therapy for you to write all that down, too, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 53:43

Wisdom is not a word that's in that book.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

Well, it's something I took from the book is uh that you have wisdom.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

Yeah, wisdom is uh not not part of the story. Well, thanks for for that, Woody. I hope that makes sense. I trust that makes sense to you guys. It's um I I think that's that's the reason we're here right now is to is to have another have an exercise in upping the awareness of our community so that you know we realize this is an unusual thing we do.

SPEAKER_05 54:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

And and it demands that we all be the pilots in particular. I mean, you guys are always on your game. I mean, I've admired med crews for years about you think, God, these guys are taking somebody that's pretty much dead, and they're delivering them to a trauma center in good shape. And I and doing it in the back of a helicopter. My God, what a you can never you can never make enough, you can never tell enough about that and and w what you guys do. Uh like our the pilot's job is pretty simple, just don't kick don't kill anybody and uh get them there.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Oh that's insanely humbling, Woody, for you to say that. But I think the fact that you wrote a book and you say wisdom isn't in the book, but uh I truly believe that just reading it alone and the fact that you were able to take all the experience that you had and take those stories and those things. I guarantee you I'm thank you for sending a copy. And two, I know I'm gonna learn something. Yep, and you know what? Like I always say that I lead by like, hey, I'll show you kind of what not to do, you know. You know, like, hey, this didn't work out well, don't do that, right? So I know that for a fact that you know, I think it's awesome that not only were you able to take the years of experience, and I'm I'm calling you experienced, um, that you were able to put pen to paper and get the thoughts out there. And I'm I'm I'm very excited to uh start reading it. I have one book to finish, I have just a couple chapters, and then I will be starting yours. And um I think it's great to give back to give back to this industry. And we I give a lot of kudos to pilots, you know. Um imagine if you had to not only do medical stuff, but then also pilot. Like if you had to do all that. Uh you need to go fly there, then go take care of the patient. Oh like you guys do a hell of a lot and and you do it well. Uh, you're I think you're better weather forecasters than some of the weather forecasts out there. Just going there is zero question about that. And the training that you guys get is insane. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

So I'm I'm last of the four. I'll just give a quick thumbnail and just say that uh I spent uh 36 plus years in law enforcement. 31 of that was with LAPD, 19 of that was at air support division versus a tactical flight officer, chief TFO for a short time, and then a pilot for my last 16 years uh on the job. And um it was air support, it was the greatest place. I mean, you can't beat it, both as a TFO and as a pilot. Wonderful experience. Uh got to do a lot of really cool stuff and um and got got to travel a little bit with a class that I taught, and I started teaching, kind of like you know, you guys, Blake, you you were just doing it today. I can relate to that. I did a lot of that over the years, and the nice, the best thing about teaching over those years was meeting incredible people from other agencies and learning about how they did things, what they did, what equipment they used, and creating friendships that would have never happened if I wasn't teaching. Uh I thought of that when you were talking of uh the how wonderful that's been. Um I taught a class for about 26 years called Apprehending Fleeing Suspects. This year is my last year doing that. Um matter of fact, the likely to be the very last class I do is gonna be at Echo in Philadelphia in September.

SPEAKER_05 58:09

Um last one. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Yeah, yeah. Um I'm gonna do it with Clay Lacey. We're doing a two-day, and that's probably gonna be it. There, there's one other one that might come up that I can't don't want to even talk about because I don't want to do anymore, but I might have to, for certain reasons, just twist your arm a little bit. Yeah, I might have to. It's a volunteer one that I that I care about, and it might come up if asked. I might go. But Echo is gonna be scheduled-wise, that's gonna be the last one. So anyway, I just take that experience of flying uh and spending a lot of time on graveyard shift during that 31 years in in LA. I mean, in patrol, that's where I spent my time in canine five years straight, you know. And then a bunch of my of my 19 years, oh, I think over half of it was was on graveyards. And so that's the perspective I'm coming from on the topic that we're talking about today. And we'll get into more of that as we go along here. But um, thanks for the background. So I think that's important for our listeners to hear. So let's let's talk about this. How how does fatigue influence readiness? Mike, why did you capture that one?

SPEAKER_01 59:24

Yeah, I think this is uh multifaceted in in so many routes, and I'm gonna take it from the med crew perspective and just from my own experiences in life. And I look back at, you know, there's those days that I wake up and maybe I don't get an opportunity to get my coffee before I, you know, take that 20-minute drive into work. And and I get there and I'm just not feeling it for the day, and go through a morning brief and I'm like, man, I'm exhausted. And I might do a half-assed check of my gear. I was here two days ago. It's fine. There's no big deal. They only had one flight since then, you know, not a problem. And I don't put myself in this right mindset to actually go out there and not only take care of patients, but take care of my team and be ready to go. And I think that that just carries over, you know, when we talk about fatigue, it just it it affects every single thing that you do when you're on shift, when you're on your way to work, when you leave after the end of your shift. And, you know, from uh we we can talk about the scientific aspect of it, right? Like how it slows down your um your ability to work under pressure, you're you fall off that human performance curve. It slows down your ability to react to those situations that you're dealing with, to those patient changes that are happening in front of you, slows down your awareness to all of those things that are happening around you. So certainly there's a scientific, but when I'm just tired, my body just doesn't want it. Like I can't get into it. Um, and then when you compound that with having to get up in the middle of the night when it's four o'clock in the morning, and my partners will tell you time and time again if I wake up hungry and tired, look out. Um those two factors together, it does not end well for anyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

But wait, so I'm not the only Cinderella. Uh is that what you're honest thing?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Like we're not calling me that. Not I mean maybe my partners probably would. They would probably agree with me on that. They carry emergency Scooby snacks for a reason. Oh, yeah. It's not for them. It's for Mike. Pretty much. That is exactly the fact. But it just it slows down everything and it it makes me feel like I am and I think at times I don't realize it, but it it gets me to the point physically where I just I don't function. Things don't flow right, things don't move right. I can't my my what normally should take me three seconds to do something is now taking me, you know, three minutes to to accomplish. Or I'm trying to do something, you know, and start an IV, which is on a patient that I should have no issues getting an IV on, and it's just not going well. It's not coordinated, it's not moving, things just aren't happening, and then that frustrates me even more.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

And it takes me down this like spiral, and I can all relate it back to the fact that I'm walking into work feeling like I just need to go back to bed because I did not sleep well, because I was, even though I tried, was up all night because there's a million other things in life going on, and it just affects every aspect. And um I don't know. I just I I hate the way I feel when I'm tired. And I I can't get out of my own way sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's some this is a good time to mention this. That, you know, just in America tonight, there will be uh police officers working graveyard shift, you know, they'll be working tonight, and there will be thousands of traffic stops nationwide tonight, and many of them will be for suspected drunk driving. And many of those suspected drunk drivers haven't had a drink. It's fatigue. It's identical. When you're looking at what you think, oh, look at this guy. This is a drunk driver. I got a drunk driver right here. Sometimes it is, but many times it's fatigue. They are just really tired and they're weaving and they're doing the same the same violations and the same, it's identical. And I've heard it before about fatigue and and drunk driving or or and uh blood blood alcohol levels, but I don't remember the exact thing. If somebody knows, chime in here, but it's the equivalent of having a couple, a few drinks. I mean, if you if you think about it that way, of course it's gonna affect your readiness. You know, where you just go, oh yeah, I don't I don't need to check that. It's just like after a few drinks, you don't feel like that. It's it's really interesting how it affects you physically, mentally, emotionally, all sorts of things go on. Uh but um yeah, it's it's it's fatigue is a powerful thing. And when you are messing with it and not getting the sleep, not intentionally not getting, you're trying to get it, but you don't get the good sleep, and now you're doing in a very important and skilled job, whether it's flying the aircraft or working on a patient, it doesn't matter. You could be you could be the person on the fuel truck that's fueling the aircraft at two in the morning. And if they're not fueling it, that could be a problem. I mean, yeah, it doesn't matter what the job is. It just happens that we're on the Valor Flight Crew podcast and the Hanger Z podcast talking about law enforcement and and public safety aviation. It doesn't matter what your job is. You could be a truck driver. There's a great example. Truck drivers. Oh my gosh. They drive related, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're they're working this shift constantly. And, you know, they deal with this issue as much as we do. And they can they have to be in their game too, or it could be a catastrophe, you know, and there are there are accidents, but I think it's important for everybody that's listening to to remember that how powerful this this is. Any any Blake, anything you want to add about uh in how it influences readiness?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

Yeah, I it uh as we were talking about it, I was thinking, like, I don't really know what it was like when I felt rested. Like I haven't really felt rested in a long time. Wow. You know, and and like let's be honest, like how many other people could say that exact same thing? How many nurses have been like, man, I got like 10 hours of sleep, I had two days off. I am ready for like 10 patients today. Like, no, I don't think anybody's saying that. Um, I like you guarantee that yeah, it's not happening, but it's it it it's in the Medical field, it's in truck driving, it's in the shift work, whether you work in a factory, like so we know that fatigue is everywhere. We know that everybody's tired, everybody is tired, right? Okay, so if I don't know what it was like to feel rested or well rested, I should say. Um then if everyone else is feeling the same way. So if that's the normalization then of like how we're gonna show up to work and do things, how do we fix that? And I think when I think of it like exactly what Mike was saying, how does it affect me being ready? Well, I like a routine. I wake up 4:30 or so in the morning. I try to have, I set myself up for like I want my quiet time in the morning, I have my coffee, I do my reading, I do my study, and then I get ready for work, and then I come into work. And then what's the one thing that throws me off is you walk in and that those tones drop and you get a flight request. Well, I didn't have time to check the aircraft yet. Well, I hope it was good, you know, because I'm like, ah, well, they were on yesterday, they didn't really have any flights. I'm pretty sure they checked that aircraft real well. But if I was coming in after Mike, no offense. Uh, he's like, well, the aircraft didn't move for two days, so it's got to be good. I was the last one there two days ago, so I know everything is okay. Like, I think it just snowballs, you know, and and we have sleep debt, we have like that. I don't know, fatigue debt is really a a word. Um, but it it it culminates and it it snowballs. And if it doesn't affect me, maybe my actions will affect the next people coming onto that shift, right? Like you said, the guy fueling the aircraft. Yeah. Sure hope he put it in the right gas. Yeah. You know? Oh, yeah. Uh I think it's it's it's so cumulative in all the things that we do. And and maybe my fatigue doesn't directly affect me, but maybe it affects the next people coming on shift. That readiness, uh, just it's how the cards were. No one needed my help that day. So I got away.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

It's true in public safety. It's certainly true in law enforcement too, where you're depending on that crew ahead of you. Did they have it together? You know, did they check this stuff? Did they do a post-flight? Uh and I would imagine, especially in in the uh Hem's world, that you know, all the equipment and all the supplies, it's it's a flying ambulance, right? I mean, all those supplies is is everything topped off? Is everything there? So that if you need it, I mean, that must be a huge thing. And and now, so now you're maybe you're coming in on daywatch, and now you're hoping that the people that were overnight and are definitely fatigued, you know, that you're trusting them, right? I mean, you're putting a lot of trust in them to to do the right thing and and do do the procedures and and all that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:58

And and I think Woody would would attest to this for flying and being around med crews. We know we're a special bunch, but you know that crew that was up all night. So when you know when Dave crew comes in and they're all like, hey guys, what's up? And like the overall tone is just like nobody's saying anything, and you're like, uh, you're like rough night. And they're like, Yeah, we're up all night. I think I got everything put back. Yes. So so like you're kind of like, hmm, now I gotta be on my game a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

Talk about that, Woody. You you have a lot of experience in that area. Talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:39

I mean, I I think it's a huge challenge. Um my experience with fatigue as well is that you I end up in a really dark mood. I have a really negative attitude. And I'm not a particularly nice person, not a good deal, not a good day, but uh but I you know I I found I would have to I had to work very hard when you got rotated in the nights to to be civil. And I thought, you you do you owe it to you have to do this, you owe it to these guys to be civil. You've got that's the only way you're gonna get through this, and you don't have a right not to be civil. It was that big an internal challenge for me. And and I think I did a pretty good job of it. And they everybody seemed to pretty much everybody like me. And uh and the more I got into the particularly the native air experience where we're we're where you we were so close together, you you you develop a deep respect for your med crew teammates. Uh they said watching what they do, you think these are amazing people. And they're they're living in the same shit environment you are, you know, in terms of rest and challenge. And and so let's let's stay close. That's our the only way that we can save ourselves is to be close and and and positive to each other, supportive. And and um you're right, Jack. I think that it's the it nobody teaches you that. I mean, I haven't been around your medical business and the employment employee side for a long time, but from what I know from my friends, it hasn't the employee training hasn't changed that much. They they love to avoid the dark side of what the people do. But it becomes a challenge, a personal challenge for each person on that team to say to themselves, okay, I'm I'm tired. This job is really tough. But I the last thing I need to do is take this out on my my buds on the shift. You know, they're we're all in the boat, the same boat together. We we gotta take we gotta take care of each other. And I saw pilots, and you guys have seen pilots, that really have not thought that through. And they come to work grumpy, and and you know, I I remember seeing guys come, uh, you know, if I was on a day shift, you one of the guys is coming in at night and he's grumpy, and you think, you don't have the right to do that. You do not have the right to do that. But I I in trying to answer the question here, Jack, I think we each have to realize we take in this in that kind of job, you take on a huge personal responsibility to support your teammates. So uh and if you and if you ignore that responsibility, again, like some a lot of pilots, a lot of pilots I do, uh, you do so at everybody's risk. Because, you know, it's if things really do start to unwind, um, you know, with the aircraft or the weather or whatever, you we really need to be bonded very tightly with each other and and to get yourselves out of the mess. So I yeah, anyway, that's that's my thought.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

No, that kind of leads into something that I that uh Mike that you made as one of the points we wanted to talk about. I I think this might be one of the most important things we talk about. Fatigue self-assessments in the presence of a mission request. There there are external pressures, there's internal pressures, there's personal pressures to get the job done. We we wouldn't be in this business if we weren't the type of people that want to go help people and get the job done. But in in flying and in aviation, there's another layer there that comes into play. We want to get there every time, but there's times when maybe we shouldn't go. Uh talk about a uh the fatigue self-assessment. What what what uh when when you mentioned that topic, what what does that mean to you? And what are the things that maybe you do personally to self-assess?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:23

So I I think I'd like to start that with a question back to you, Jack, in saying when those tones go off, is has there ever been a time for you, or when that call for help comes out, has there ever been a time for you where you have not felt more of an internal pressure to get out that door and go help?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:43

No. That pressure was always there.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:46

And so I think that's where like this was was coming from. I think that's exactly what all of us feel, right? Like that that is the natural, that is that is the beast of this industry. That is when when the call comes in, we go. And we feel that internal pressure to do this. And, you know, there's uh if you think back or you if you listen back to one of the podcasts that we had with, uh I believe it was with Russell, talking about some of those pressures to fly. You know, part of that is because of referring to all of these as missions, right? It is a mission that we have to go out the door, right? It's that verbiage that goes with it. It puts that added pressure. And I think that for a lot of us, we still do that internally every single day. Um look, at the end of the day, life happens, right? We don't get a good night's sleep. We are fighting with our spouse. Our kids were playing all day long and kept us up. Uh, the dog wouldn't stop barking throughout the day. Uh, whatever this may be, right? Like there's all of these external factors, or maybe we had a really busy weekend because we had to go to all these kids' events. Whatever it may be, we show up to work thinking we're in this good headspace, that we got enough sleep, or we know for a fact we probably didn't, and we're just banking on the fact that you know what, it's okay. I only got three hours of sleep. I'm gonna be able to nap when I get to work, right? Like, and and I think that we we trick ourselves on this daily basis of thinking that we're not really as tired as what we actually are. Yeah, we come up with every excuse of why we can do it, but we refuse to think of a reason why we shouldn't. Bingo. And you nailed it there, Mike. I I think that's what I that's what I struggle with sometimes. And and I think going back to that, you know, difficult internal conversation that Blake was talking about is just we have to have that honest conversation. Am I safe to go to work right now? Am I safe to jump in, you know, a multi-million dollar helicopter, go flying around at you know, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 feet in the dark, and be safe doing it? Am I safe right now at three o'clock in the morning, as tired as I am, to go give a dying patient their last chance at getting to definitive care? Am I in the right headspace? Have I gotten enough rest? Am I doing the right things necessary to take care of that patient? And I think that we we trick ourselves because we have those internal pressures, because our adrenaline goes off and we're like, all right, I'm good, I'm ready to do this, let's get on it. Is that really what the case is? And and I I think what I struggle with even more is going back to thinking about some of these um flights. And and and if there was an article that was in Vertical Magazine the end of March uh related to and talking about the FAA study that just came out. So with the study that was done by the FAA looking specifically at fatigue and in the HEMS environment, it was interesting to me reading through that that I don't think we really um learned anything groundbreaking about what was expected. We know that, especially when you get to day four, night four, you know, that your reaction time slow down, that um you can certainly see the the inertia kicking in when you have to wake up at three o'clock in the morning and suddenly be on your game. But it's like it takes you a long time to wake up, and it can be the equivalent of being drunk in that moment, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:27

And so I think what struck me as so incredibly um groundbreaking when when you look at both the report from that FAA study, and then I also think back to a podcast that we did with Russell Griffin before, in that statistically the most dangerous leg of the flight is RTB. Yep. And when you look at that study, that the pilots that were surveyed in that study felt the greatest fatigue on the RTB leg.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:01

Why do you think that is, Mike? As a crew member, why do you think that is? I I bet it's the same, I'll bet it's the same for you, but why why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

The adrenaline wears off.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:12

The fatigue kicks. Our true fatigue state is happening then, right? Yes. We can finally let our guard down. We can finally relax. We can finally, you know, breathe. And we let our guard down.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:27

That's right. The adrenal the adrenaline dump has occurred. You had it. You had that adrenaline, glucose, cortisol, and now, well, we we accomplished the mission. I I'm sorry, I used that bad word again. Mission. Uh, you accomplished what you're what you were you were sent to do, and you're you're glad maybe it was a great success, but it's done.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:51

But it all goes back to we we're we're at this point where we are fighting to stay awake, and it's because we never did a proper assessment of our own fatigue to begin with.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:01

We never did the preparation to get to work in the right state of mind, in the right physical and emotional and intellectual way to be present and be accountable for ourselves and to do the job to the expectations that each and every patient has of us. I want to jump into this, Mike.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:22

I think, you know, our lives don't allow us. You know, we again when you talk about like this horrible four-night stretch, which all of us remember, or I may remember with far too starkly. Uh but but the job doesn't allow us to live in a real world. If you were gonna, if it was gonna be the the ideal thing that situation where you would be rested, you would go, you would leave your job, you would go somewhere, you'd go to you'd get something to eat, and you would sleep, you would get up and you'd come back to work. And that we all live we have lives to live. Yeah. And absolutely so that's not gonna that's just not gonna happen. It's not reality. No, it's not. And so and certainly by night four, everybody is mentally spent, and there's not, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't change your life to fix that. And and that just all that does is just make this whole, you know, the more we it's kind of funny, the more we talk about this whole thing. We're realizing that, you know, if you're in that job, you're stuck in a situation that is incredibly tough. Yeah. And and you and you just have to figure out how to do how to get through the shift and possibly have to do some, maybe some of the most demanding work you've ever had to do. Yeah. Or a uh nurse or medic.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:55

Right. But but Woody, I think that that's when that internal pressure, that that lack of self-assessment of how fatigued we truly are, only gets worse because we start going in the spiral of no, I can do this, or no, I don't want to let my crew down, or no, I don't want to let my patient down. And and we start getting into this like hyped up state that we get ourselves to the point where like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm okay. I can I can do this because I don't want to let somebody else down. So it's internal pressures. Yeah, it's a real spiral.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:22

And um again, I think we're we're just pointing out we're pointing out the situation where there aren't any answers.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:34

I I think there's more questions than than than than than answers. And and that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:40

You know, 90% of the time, as I remember it, if if you did a self-assessment, you'd go like, I'm tired of shit. I'm really tired. And and I'm unhappy that I'm here and I'm looking out at two o'clock in the morning and going, like, my God, why am I going out there?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:00

Yeah. We're all guilty of it. Yeah. Oh. Yep. And I think if we if we did that, then we probably wouldn't just go at all, you know? Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:11

Yeah. Assessment would say uh I shouldn't be doing this. Yeah. Yeah. So where would you take that with your management? I've done a self-assessment and I'm tired. I can't fly.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:24

Yeah, but it's the it's the fifth one this week, Woody. Why can you not continue to go? It's the fifth time that according to the self-assessment that you can't go. Is it your fault? Or is it the is it just the nature of this business? You know, it's a lot of different things. And and and Woody, you you said it earlier. It's like that that self-discipline, those like it's my responsibility to be as prepared as I can to come in and do the work, you know, that's asked of me. But I almost I I do think that leading into how we make things better is I I think it's important for operators and employers like to understand that like this does have a cumulative effect. Like our body, like I eat nothing but like trash food, which I do, um like my body like it's only gonna last so long, you know, like until something gives. I can only push it so far. So if we continue to do, like we we just we have to find a way to to make ways to to mitigate that. And and Woody, I wanted to ask you when you were flying out in um Albuquerque native air, we you had long, and and Mike was talking about it, those return to base legs are the most dangerous because we let our guard down, but you had you had correct me if I'm wrong, long return to base legs, right? An hour, maybe more. Well, from the scene, you mean? No, so like you do the flight, you drop the patient at the hospital, but then now you gotta get back to base.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:09

Oh no, because our bases were all well. Yeah, you're right. I mean, like uh, I was at Payson for about three of the five years, and Payson was Payson's 90 miles from Phoenix. Yeah, so you drop a patient and you gotta turn around and fly back up into the mountain mountains again to get back to the and you're tired.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:34

So I almost wonder, like, I'll be honest, most of my return to base legs are like five minutes if I stay local, right? What's gonna happen in five minutes? You know, I'm tired. Ah, whatever, I'll make it back. Yeah. Like I almost wonder if the I almost wonder if that the real problem is are the shorter flights the more dangerous than the 90 minutes back through the mountains. Like, do you do you do you squeeze every last bit of like attention of or or focus that you have because you know you're going somewhere that takes a longer time to get there, it takes more focus. And like Mike said, we have these shorter return to base legs. Do I just say, yo, I'm climbing in the back, man, you're up front on this one. Well, I just put the the the same equally tired guy up front. Now I'm trying to, I think I'm doing something good by saying, hey, I'm not at my best. I think I need to sit in the back on this one. And now the other, now my partner's like, well, damn, I don't feel that great, but I guess I better get up front because if he doesn't feel good, someone's got to do it, right? Yeah. And the pilot's like, man, if these two guys are tired, I'm the only one that can fly us back. I guess I better, you know, suck it up and and and get back. So are we really having those honest conversations? And and what would it look like if we said, hey, the three of us right now are not good to fly back to base. It's only a six-minute flight. Takes courage to do that, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:00

Yeah, and nobody's gonna do it because they know our brain down hate firearm.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:07

I want to go back to the story that you talk that you were mentioning before, Jack, because I I feel it needs to be said, um, you know, when you had that moment where you nodded off in the helicopter, and if if you have not, if there are whoever is listening, I don't care if you're in law enforcement, fire department, search and rescue, hems, if you have not had that moment, you will. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:32

I agree. And I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:35

And I think that like that, that's that's what scares me because I know I personally have been there myself. And I'm like, man, I'm glad I'm not flying this thing. Right. Because I am exhausted right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:49

One of the few times I've been like, man, I'm glad I'm not a pilot. Exactly. I guess I'll sit in the back.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:55

You know, our job is just as important. We need to be eyes out, we need to be looking around. Like this is a team effort.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:02

Yeah. I I can tell you, even in canine, you know, we'd be on a long night, you know, you get there, and before you even start your watch at 200, you're already going to a search. And now you go to four searches that night and you're exhausted. And now it's 0,400. I mean, you are tired. And we would drive home, and several of us, a whole bunch of us, lived north of the city in the same community. And I remember, I will never mention his name on the air, but he wouldn't know if he's listening. I followed a certain handler more than once that I know was burning the candle at both ends all the time. For the right reasons, by the way, it was all about his family, all about his boys. And heck, I was involved in half of it, you know, coaching and stuff. Uh and we were both doing it at a time. But I followed him some nights where I was I was truly concerned for his life. Where I actually got on the radio and yelled at him one time. Um and said, hey, and you know, and I know what was happening. He was on the nod. I and we'd get to a stoplight and it would turn green. And I'd be right on his bumper, you know. We're going up, we lived within a mile of each other. I'd be right on his bumper, the light turns green, and nothing happens. I know what's going on in that car, you know, because I've been there too. So it's just reality. It's the way our body works. We there's only so much we can do about it. And everybody here has brought it up about life. Life gets in the way. You can do everything right. And it's still, there's still things that you you cannot control when it comes to fatigue. It's just the way we're wired. Your body, the circadian rhythms, those are real. I heard a supervisor at LAPD Air's Report say, that's a bunch of mumbo jumbo crap. Uh no, it's proven science, it's over and over and over and over again. Uh, and that was the person that didn't like anybody sleeping, um, you know, at all, even for 20 minutes. Close your eyes for 20 minutes to see, oh, geez, god forbid. Uh, but they didn't understand that you can do everything right and still need that that 20 minutes to close your eyes because you may get called out again. It's something you guys can relate to. Um you know, there's there's a lot of stuff going on in our bodies physiologically that that we can that we know about, but we can't really control completely. Well this is an example. I just asked my wife about this today. It's called um the dawn phenomena. The dawn phenomena. And what it is is when the when light comes up in the morning, nothing, you haven't eaten anything yet. Nothing. It's just the light has reappeared. Your body dumps glucose. It's it's the way it is. You could be fasting for three days, and every time the light comes up, the light comes up in the morning, your body's gonna dump glucose. Not because you ate something, but because that's how your body works. I mean, it's it's amazing the things that happen in our in our systems from you know thousands and thousands and you know of years. Uh and fatigue is one of those. And that's why it's kind of frustrating, isn't it? I mean, I I got frustrated for with fatigue where I'm thinking, man, I'm doing everything right, and I still feel like crap. Blake, you mentioned it multiple times tonight.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:35

Our bodies are not built to be up at all hours like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:38

They're not. It's not. And it's like, well, what can we do about it? Um, and a lot of the theme tonight seems to be uh the the self-assessment thing. I I mean it right. I mean, it there there's no policy procedure. It's kind of like we just gotta check ourselves, check our pilots and our crews, crews, and make sure we take care of each other, and then you know, get the job done if if we can. And and then having the courage to say no, I mean, it that's it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:15

It's it's really hard to say no. Yeah. It is hard to say no, but I think that we have to have a shift of um and I've seen that at least where I'm at, and and if anyone else out there listening or to uh Mike, I have seen uh organizations welcome a uh crew rest, right? Yeah, absolutely. Um and what I've seen implemented is there's no question, there's no, hey, why are you doing this? No. You say you need crew rest, you get four hours. You don't have to take the four hours, uh, but you can take up to the four hours. And then at that point, if for whatever reason you're not good to go, well then it's time to go home at that point. There's something that was happening, there's something that's that was going on. Well, we're gonna call it. Someone, if if if I need to go home, I'm gonna go home. I at least am very thankful that there has been an not only an implementation, but a reminder of from my superiors to hey guys, just so you know you have this ability to take this rest, and it's okay, and we'll fill it out. And and and a lot of it really is like data collection. And I think the one of the things that has come from that is to recognize maybe certain, you know, uh daily procedural type things that have kind of come into play to where they're like, you know what, maybe some of that doesn't make sense, and maybe we can maybe eliminate that, and that will cut back on like why did six crews take crew rest this week? Yeah, well, they got they got called the one specific area or whatever reason. Hey, let's look into that, you know. I think it's it's it's a very good step in the right direction. Yeah. Is that is that a recent change, Blake? It's been around now for probably the last, or I should say it's been more advocated for probably in the last three or four years. Um, because again, like like the reason why we're having this conversation, something has had to change, right? And and and when we talk about certain incidents, we don't it doesn't have to be a like a catastrophic or or or fatal incident, but still little incidents with helicopters are very expensive. Yes, you know, uh you bump a fence, you know, you rip off an antenna, um, you know, all these other little things, they all add up, right? And and it doesn't have to be the the the big news-worthy incidents, it could be the ones that are day in and day out that cost a lot of money to fix, you know, windscreens, they're not cheap. Rotor blades, not cheap. Uh there's nothing cheap on an aircraft. So yeah, and and and those were things that were like, hey, why are we like just moving an aircraft in and out of a hangar? You could be anybody, uh law enforcement, fire, search, rescue, medical, just moving an aircraft when you're tired. And you you you don't get a toe bar on correctly, or you don't get you know uh the skids gripped appropriately. Something can cause damage. And then that that adds up. Hey, Blake, why uh what were you doing uh on your wing walk? Sleeping. Yeah, you know, I wasn't there, you know, like those are the things, and then they can add up. And and I'm very thankful for being part of an organization that has not only identified, hey, well, we're we're cutting a lot of checks. Uh let's try to figure out how to not do that so much. Uh, and it's also been embraced and to be like, hey, listen, if you're not good, go home. Okay. Yeah. We'll talk about it another day. I fully expect that if it's like my eighth shift in a row that I keep going home, well, obviously I'm the problem. Um, but I think it just it it garners like we we should have these conversations and and it's okay to be like, hey, why is this happening? We should fully embrace it, talk about it, and see if there's a way to figure it out. You know, bad guys that they don't they don't take nights off, you know. Uh you know, they things happen. People do things inherently. We all know dumb things happen after midnight.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:48

Everything, all the crazy stuff like that, everything happens, nothing good happens after midnight, right? So we just have to be honest about the reality of those things. And I think as long as we we answer those risk assessments, the self-assessment, we have to be honest with ourselves. And that can hopefully help prevent the little things from becoming big incidents.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:10

Good. I'm gonna come to you, Woody, and then Mike, you're gonna follow him and give the current day answer to the question. Woody, back in the day, you know, a while back, what kind of risk assessment were you were you doing? I mean, when I mean you know what risk assessment is today, because you you're you were st you're still in the industry. But what were you doing? And then I'm gonna come to Mike and ask what he's doing, and we're gonna compare the two. If you go back to Med Star in the 80s, yeah, we didn't there was no such thing. Yeah, nothing at all. No, nothing. And um so talk about that. I mean I don't want to interrupt you, but but talk about what that meant. The bell goes off, and there was there was you just went to the helicopter, started it, crew got in, and you went. There was no there was no discussion about ABCD EFG. Nothing at all. You just went and get the job done.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:05

Right. Wow. I mean, there were there was no risk. I mean, that was back when life was simple and we didn't we didn't have nobody was worried about, nobody thought about risk. Yeah. I'm not sure that maybe wasn't better because you know, listening to everything we're saying, we do we do all these risk assessments and we go and we decide I'm really not ready for this, and then we good luck calling your company and say, well, I've done a risk assessment and I'm too tired to fly. Yeah, you know, as we all know, you might get away with that one night. Not very often. Definitely not too. You're gonna get some counseling and guidance. Well, we know what that is. So you you know, again, you it's just this vicious we're going around in a circle about this job is very, very dangerous. And and uh and it's a challenge for the team members to be spun up and ready every night. And there and and that's it. I mean, there is no it's a it's a paradox that we that you live with when you're in this business. So um uh I mean the risk assessment came into vogue, you know. When I was at Native Air, we we started doing these risk assessments, and we're all going like this is pretty funny. Yeah. Okay. So this is a you know, a giant paper exercise. So the company's has done a a a CYA drill. Yeah. And um and then if we all said if we checked all the boxes, hey, it's all okay, then it's on us if we screw up.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:06

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:07

And that's I think that's how we all felt. I'm not sure that's I'm not sure that perception has changed much.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:14

Well, let's let's ask Mike. Mike, what talk about risk assessments today for both you know, you personally, where you work, and what you what you do and your crew does, and any industry. I mean, you you're around this industry, especially now with the podcast. You guys get to talk to people from all over the place. You go to Echo and what's the industry doing? What are you doing? How does it differ from what uh Woody just talked about?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:41

Yes, I I I think from my perspective, I think that it has changed a little bit. And one of the, you know, I can remember the days where that risk assessment was left at. And and because it wasn't that long ago, right? It like this was this is within the last five, 10 years in some organizations where you know the risk assessment was not maybe the the concept of it was there, uh, but it was more it was it was a pilot thing. The the pilots took care of the risk assessment and the med crew, we just you know, we we we get in and go. Um, to where I've seen the transition to today, where it's all crew members are part of that risk assessment. And I and I think if nothing else, that that risk assessment is an opportunity for each crew member to have that personal check-in every day, right? Um, it's an opportunity for your crew members. Maybe they don't need to know what's going on in your life, but they at least know that you have some external stressors that you're working through right now. So it can give them that opportunity to really have that awareness of where I'm at and what kind of external stressors I'm having, and maybe how much sleep I had earlier uh in the day and where I'm at as far as a mental state to be in this to win this, right? And and vice versa, me for my partners. And hopefully we can try to compensate for each other a little bit, identify what risks are a factor in this and mitigate them. And so I think for me, seeing in in both my organization and in the industry, that implementation across all crew members to have that, I think has been uh a very positive thing that I've been, you know, privy to at this point. The other positive thing that I'm hoping to start to see more of is the time frame of when we're doing these assessments. Because this is not just about doing it at the beginning of your shift and forgetting about it for the rest of the time. Oh, we've got a good number, let's go, right? I know you're laughing over there, Blake, but you know, really it and and and I I'm sure that my crew members are probably gonna slap me next time they see me for saying this, but I really think that there at least should be the question asked. If not, it should be redone after every single flight. And and I say after the flight, because if we're waiting to redo this assessment when I'm waking up at three o'clock in the morning to go on a call, I'm not going to either answer it correctly, or I'm not going to have the wherewithal about me to recognize where I'm at on that fatigue scale. And I'm also under the pressure at that point to take the flight. These risk assessments should be done when we're not under that pressure to take that flight. And I think that we're starting to see some of those trends moving in those directions because when you're in that moment, when you have that both now external and internal pressure. And I don't think that I'm not saying external pressure, like you have somebody breathing down your throat, you need to go on this transport. I'm saying that external pressure of, oh my God, the tones just went off, somebody's expecting my help. Yeah. Right. That becomes an internal pressure then for us to sit there and say, I can go do this. So if we haven't thought about this beforehand, and that's a whole other topic that obviously we can go down, but I think that we're starting to see movement in that direction. And then I think when we talk about risk mitigation, I think that you're starting to see more of that integration of the medical crews into the aviation aspect of that transport, such as call and response, right? I don't know what's happening in the front of the aircraft, but when my pilot's asking me if I'm ready, I'm asking him about the engines. He's telling me we got two to fly and the gates are locked. And I'm saying we got doors belt and cabin secure in the back here. We're ready for takeoff. Right. So it has that call and response. And I think we're starting to see a lot more of some of those actions occurring that are keeping each other accountable even in the times when conditions aren't ideal. So I think that we are making progress.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:52

But I think that we still have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:54

Yeah. Wow. So this is a broad question, but it's because Lake and Mike, you you have contact with so many people. You don't have to name names are our companies, but are there is there somebody out there? Are there companies, a company or companies out there in the Hems world where you go, that's what it all needs to be like? That's the shining light right there. That's they are really doing well or doing something different on this topic. Is there anything like that, or is it pretty much you know, industry-wide, everybody's kind of in the same, the same mode?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:33

Yes, I think there are people that are doing it right. I think there are programs and there are there are areas of this country that are doing it right. And I think it's it's they're able to do it because their focus is like that's their focus, is to get it right the first time because you can actually make an impact and reach more patients and more crews, and you can you can do it right because you you're you're embracing that there's the human element to all the things, yeah, all the things that that we do. Yes, there are people that are that are doing it right, they're gonna fly dual pilot, but they're going to and even if they're not dual pilot, they're embracing that all three crew members, like you have to have all three to make that patient flight a success. And I I love that the fact that like not only from a med crew perspective, like we get a lot of aviation training, but I also like that there are places that involve the pilot in medical training, right? Like just for awareness, like I mean, Woody or Jack, I I'm sure we could show you how to start an IV. You'd be able to do it after a few times, you know. Um wouldn't want to be on the other end of it for a few times, but hey, you know, it's not gonna hurt you a bit, right? Uh it'll be okay, Jack. Yeah. But but but just having the awareness, you know, um, just having awareness as a pilot of what your med crews are potentially gonna get into, right? If you you see the med crew coming back with the patient and all of a sudden they start doing compressions, you're like, ugh, this is probably gonna take a while, or this is gonna be a mess, or they're gonna be going through a lot, right? You know, so as a pilot, like like you're not just the driver of the helicopter, right? That like that's one aspect of it, but a lot of a shift in training. There are organizations out there that are incorporating everybody is just as equally important. You have different roles, but you are so integral that that it takes all three to make it a success. And it doesn't matter whether you're a nurse, pilot, medic, RT, whatever. And and I think if more if we recognize that more and embrace that and have those awareness of the things that each other is going through, I I think that that's pointing this whatever ship it is that we're on, I think it's at least getting us in that in that direction to to to have these conversations and do it safely.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:38

And and I think you bring up a really good point with that, which I was gonna kind of turn back over to Jack then, in that I think we can probably in the hems world, for the most part, take a lesson out of the the PD playbook here, in that you know, you and your TFO do a lot of training together and prepare for things that you can tackle if something happens and hopefully have a positive outcome, right? Both aviation related and police related. But, you know, I and I think that it's worth discussing how that integration between the TFO and the pilot work up there, because I think for a lot of us on the hem side, we don't necessarily understand all of that integration in the work that you guys are doing. But then I also take that back to challenge our med crews in saying, how many of us are just sitting up front? Or when we're sitting up front, are we really paying attention to everything that's going on? Like if there's an emergency, how many of us can get to the right EP on the iPad and make sure our pilot has what we need?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:42

Yeah. Yeah, that's important. Yeah. I and my department did a decent job at that and my time there. I mean, where they did emergency flight training for tactical flight officers. Try to get them to be able to take the controls and get to an airport and do a shallow approach. To a run-on-landing. That was the goal. That's a good goal. I mean, some people caught on to that real quick, others struggled, but we we got it. Most could do it. That's a big thing. But there were times when we were screaming and saying, why aren't the TFOs being sent to Grand Prairie with us for simulator training? Why not? They're going to be the ones that pulled the checklist out. You know, I have I can't exactly. For those just listening, Mike and Blake simultaneously showed the money sign with their will you was easily thinking the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:34

He was. You know, it's it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:37

It was all economics. So much of what we're talking about tonight is economics. You just mentioned, oh, adding a second dual pilot. Why wouldn't all med flights have that money? That's that simple. There's no one that can argue against it and say, well, that's not a good idea. No, it's only not a good idea in one category. Money costs you money. Right? There is no other argument that there's none that you could ever come up with and say, well, having a second pilot, that's not a good idea for the following 10 reasons. No, there's only one, and it's because you don't want to pay them. You don't want to have that expense. I get it. It's a it is a business at some point. But uh, you know, we we try to get our TFOs involved in as much as we can. Now, there are simulators out there, you know, that are available now where TFOs are getting in and getting a lot more experience than that. That's valuable. No doubt about that. But you know, that it was a battle. It was a battle. And again, it came back to time and money. Well, we don't have time to do that. But many agencies, many law enforcement agencies, you mentioned the emergency flight training to them and they go, what's that? You know, you go, well, your TFOs can't don't know what to do? No. Do your TFOs carry the emergency checklist in their pocket? Why would they do that? They're they're TFOing. Because you have to have both hands on the controls. You can't pull that checklist out, you know? Yeah. And so you know your you know your checklist list so well, even under stress, that you don't need to look at it or have it read to you. It's ridiculous. The crew is so important during an emergency, any emergency, even emergencies that are kind of happen regularly, chip lights, you know, something like that. We're not talking about catastrophic engine out. Right. But even like hydraulics, hydraulic out. You know, I I I know that procedure. I know it to this day, and I haven't flown in 10 years. I I know it. But I wanted my TFO to read it to me. Adjust your speed to 40 to 60, isolate the hydraulics. I you know, it's ingrained in you, but having a crew member read it to you, making sure you're doing it right, is so important. What do you get in on this? Because you have a lot of experience in the simulator world in in various uh ways. Talk about the how important it is for the crew to be involved in this sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:08

Yeah, I have to kind of heart to way back when, which is uh kind of ancient history compared to today. And we the the the company had no interest in integrating man crews uh using crew resource management technology techniques with the med crews of the pilots. Um and and and and as you and as Mike and Blake, as you know, pilots pilots' attitudes toward med crews vary um greatly. I took again, I I really took took it very seriously to to be inner to be highly interactive with the med crew in a in a flight. And um and if we were gonna have an issue, I mean I would I would say to them, look, hey guys, we need to be, let's start looking for a precautionary place to land. I don't I'm trying to think if that ever really happened. But I think that through, I thought, I've got two two good sets of eyes here, one out of one out of each side that can see that can see behind what I can see. So what by by getting them involved, I've increased my field of vision, uh, if we're gonna have to do something like that, by a thousand percent.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:44

And and they again, and the med crews, their enthusiasm for enthusiasm for that kind of integration varied. But most of them, you could say, look, guys, um we're all in this together, and we've all well that you you you you you you got to know your med crews closely, of course. And and you you didn't really have to say that, but some of the pilots in uh again, I'm not sure if it's this way today, but then there were there were some of the pilots who said, I don't want to even talk to the med crew, it's my business how I fly, and um, which I thought was kind of stone age. Uh but I I felt like if we're gonna like land in a horrible confined area, two that other set two sets of eyes, just a normal situation, were invaluable. I mean, these, you know, med crews know a lot about flying. It's um they know more than they think they do because they've been riding around for a long time, tightly involved in the whole flight experience. And for the and for us to have to go land down in a bunch of trees, to say to them, look, guys, this is gonna be a very steep approach uh with a lot of obstacles. So let's all get mind-melded here and let's you guys watch out in your sectors that you can see. And if anything you see, you know, if you see something that you think is gonna be a danger, say something. And and my thought was if one of them says, hey, there's a tree branch, it was I was pulling clocks, you're like, Whoop, that's enough for me. Yeah. Because at that point you can't say, well, where's the tree? Right. Right? And um, and so I personally like to involve the the crew, the med crew, in in situations like that. And and and most of them seem to like to be involved. Some of them had the idea, well, look, I'm not really, you're the pilot, I'm not really involved. I just do my job when I get there. But but I think most people in a situation like that would like to would like to be involved and help to make sure everybody gets out safe.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:22

So I'm kind of going around circles here, but that's that's all that's all true. It's self-preservation.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:30

Yeah. It is self-preservation. And by the way, you know, the nurses and paramedics are pretty intelligent people. Most of them are more intelligent than pilots. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:41

Uh this is being recorded. That's absolutely true.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:49

You can teach you can teach a monkey how to fly a helicopter.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:54

We can teach one to start an IV.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:59

There's a lot to be said for all three team members to be uh proactively involved in the flight. And and for uh if the if the company doesn't promote, I mean most most air medical companies now are promoting crew crew resource management to a very high degree. Absolutely. And and and that's good because it's gonna make for a happier, safer flight. No doubt. No doubt. So I don't know if I kind of beat to death, but that's my thought.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:35

Well, it's it's an important topic. CRM is important and it can save your lives, you know. Um, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:43

I feel like we might have done a podcast about that, Jack, or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:45

I'm just gonna I just I think you're I think you're right. I think you're right. That was a good one. That was a really good one. I love that conversation. That was that was fantastic. So in the couple minutes we have left, I just want to kind of rapid fire around the around the horn here and ask each of you and give just a just a brief, you know, you're you're you're now in charge. You are in charge, you are king for the day. And I want you to pick one thing that if if you had the power to do it in your industry, not in your unit, not where you work, just industry-wide with dealing with fatigue, if you had to pick one thing to change to make it this better, what would it be? Blake, give us one.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:33

If I was running for whatever election, if I would this would be my ticket. This is what I would write on. Um, for our industry from the med crew perspective, the number one thing we all say, we say this all day. I will fly all day. I will take care of patients, no problem. You know what I hate doing? Documenting. I hate doing documentation because it takes so damn long. Yeah, why does it take me two hours to do a patient care report or chart, whatever you want to call it? So, and when and when we talk about those things, God, if I could change that and and and it's happening, they're there the documentation companies, they're they're catching on. Yeah, uh, there's a lot of things that are helping us do our job a little bit better, but we could still get there. And that's the I think that that's for me personally my number one complaint. It's not the fact that we just did all these crazy things to this patient, yeah. But now I got to go back and write it all out and put it into words and type it out, and it takes me three hours. So I think I know what you're gonna say, but how does that paperwork relate to the fatigue factor? Cut that time down. Why don't if I could do that chart, if I could take care of that patient, get back and not have to spend two or three hours doing documentation. If I was able to cut that down to 45 minutes to an hour at the most, now I have some more time to rest and review. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:02

Exactly. Very good.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:04

That'd be my that'd be my ticket. All right.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:06

You're vote for vote for I don't know what I'm running for, but it sounds cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:11

Vote for Blake.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:15

So, Woody, all your experience, all those years, you've seen uh you've seen this this topic in multiple settings. If there was one thing that you could change in the industry that would make it better with with relation to fatigue, can you pick one?

SPEAKER_03 2:01:35

I I think it's uh I was again, I was kind of cringing it when you came to me on this because I'm I'm really drawing a blank. I mean, I think we've covered I think we've extensively covered the dynamics of what this job is from all our perspectives, and uh and certainly are in agreement that it it's uh it's a huge challenge that uh requires all the players to actively contribute to the solution and to be um uh and work hard to to be uh to have a good team. So I I don't I can't think of one thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:26

I I think you just hit on it. It I I think you just hit on it, Woody, by saying, you know, that the team has to be involved in this. All of the people have to be involved in this that are doing the job, right? I mean, it shouldn't be somebody that's not out there doing the job that is saying, well, we're not gonna do that. That's a stupid idea. Well, hold it. The people that are doing the job think it's a really good idea and that it would help them be more efficient or effective or safer. They're the ones that are doing it, right? Right? I mean, you've seen that through your whole career. Yeah. I mean, it it just seems like uh sometimes the the worker bees get ignored on these topics when you're living it and feeling it, and you're the one that is fatigued, you know. Mike, king King Fidale? Uh what what what uh what would you change? King Fidale.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:18

King. I just get down there. I just found the plaque for his office.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:23

Negative part.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:26

King Fidale. Uh but if I could be king for a day, I vote for mandatory naps. I don't know. Uh no, but I I think that one of the things I would love to see is this the stigma that surrounds being tired or not being able to complete a mission in that we said that word again, or not be able to go on that response. But the stigma surrounding that, to be able to say confidently, I'm not safe right now, could somehow go away. I think that we all need to have that trust and understanding and reliability within ourselves and our teammates to know that we're all in this job because A, we want to do good, we want to help our patients, we want to go home at the end of the day, we want to be a team player. That if there has to come that time where I have to say, I'm not safe right now, that the stigma surrounding all of that goes out the window. Because we need to be able to have not only that conversation with ourselves, but with our crew members, and it needs to be okay.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:38

We have in most parts of the country a helicopter in every corner. There's no shortage of them around.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:46

So if I'm not safe to do it here, somebody else is. And I'm, you know, I know that, you know, everybody's cringing, like, oh, we're giving away business that way. I'm I'm saying even within your own agency, you've got multiple options at most places out there around the country. And I think that we need to just be able to have that honest conversation with ourselves and for the stigma surrounding it to go away. I agree. In my perfect world.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:15

It's it's just like mental wellness. Well, I think we talked about this before we started recording. It's talking about fatigue and talking about mental wellness, that it has changed. We we were able to talk about it more today than people 10 years ago, 20, 30 years ago when they didn't talk about it at all. It was just the stigma was huge.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:34

Have we made progress? No doubt about it. But there's still always room for improvement. And so I agree with you. That getting rid of that stigma is important. And being able to talk about it honestly and say, hey, this is reality. What you know, yes, I'm we might say no to a flight, but think about what it would cost you if we went out there fatigued, like we know we are, for the following 10 reasons and the frat that we can show somebody and say, if we you know ball this helicopter up, that's gonna cost you a lot more than than this flight by far. It's not even it's not even not even close.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:16

And I think that there is there is some of that going in that direction. We are making progress as an industry, we are pushing this forward, and I think that we are making strides, absolutely. Good. Um, and and I, you know, I see it within um many leadership teams across the country who are are practicing what they preach and indicating, like, hey, if you gotta call a timeout, that's okay. We're all right with that.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:41

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:42

Um, and I I think that where I'm saying the stigma, I think that's almost more of an internal thing. I have my own stigma for me to say that I'm too I'm too proud.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:52

Yeah.

unknown 2:06:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:54

Right? And so I need to be able to have that internal conversation as well as that external conversation.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:02

Well, we just had a a chief, a couple of chiefs on recently, and um one of them mentioned that on his department, if somebody on Graveyard Shift is really hurting a patrol officer, that they they tell you you can come into the station, go to that cot room, and take a break. And if you need to nap for 30 minutes to get you out of that funk, do it. That's awesome. I was stunned. That is unheard of, was unheard of in law enforcement. I was stunned and went, really? And he's like, Yeah, why wouldn't we? Because what's gonna happen if he stays out there in the knot? He's gonna crash, he's gonna hurt himself, he's gonna hurt somebody else, and it's gonna cost us a fortune. So call permitting. I mean, you don't, you're gonna take a nap when it's a busy Friday night, maybe, but if you're hurting and there's nothing going on and it's a rainy night and there's no calls, he doesn't want you out there nodding off. And I love that. So maybe there's a I hope, and he's a very respected uh chief in the in the world of you know, teaching other chiefs about leadership. Maybe this is a trend. Uh I'm not aware of it, but I was I was thrilled to hear that because that was opposite of what I dealt with for 36 years. It was not only frowned upon, it was like, you don't do it. No. You cannot do that. You can't take a nap. Um it's and there's no doubt that there's some people out there that got hurt or or killed with fatigue uh being a factor. So man, time has flown by. We knew that we this was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:45

Um I don't feel like we even scratched the surface on I know. No, but uh Jack, you gotta answer the question. Yeah, you were king for a day. Oh wow, what would you change?

SPEAKER_02 2:08:54

I I think I would touch on that and and say I want everybody to be like like Chief Hughes and in law enforcement and say, okay, that if you really need it, it can't be a you can't come in every night and take a nap, but i if you really need it, you should be able to do it. And I I can tell you at air support when I was first on graveyards as a TFO, that was acceptable. It was accepted that you came in at four o'clock, you know, the last flight landed at 04, you landed, and you could sit there in those comfy chairs in the TV room and close your eyes. And because you could get another call. You were on call until seven. That went away. And it it it was ridiculous. And because it was looked at, oh, you guys are just being lazy. No, we're hurting, and you're gonna send us back out in a helicopter over the city. It's crazy. Um what could go wrong? So, yeah, I think that would be it. That the stigma, you kind of I'm following up on yours, Mike. You know, the stigma's taken away, and in law enforcement, you actually encourage it, especially in the aviation side. And uh, so that would be mine. But um, wow, what a what a good conversation. Uh, like I said, time flew by. We knew it would, we knew we could talk about this all day. But I'll just uh close it by thanking all of you. Woody, we really appreciate your years of experience and wisdom in this and giving us a perspective that we wouldn't have had uh by by participating. So thank you, Woody. Appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:35

Happy to do it. I'm I still argue with you about wisdom. Uh it did not fit in my life.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:43

Well, I've talked to you enough to know that you have wisdom and I've learned things. So uh we'll I'll just override you on that, and I will be the king, and you will just be the prince. And I will tell you that you have lots of wisdom, Prince McClendon. Um and thanks for joining us. Um thank you. This was great, guys. I was great. It was great. Blake, Mike, thank you so much for collaborating on this. This was a great idea, and I'm I'm proud to be a part of it with you guys. Uh the Valor Flight Crew podcast is a wonderful thing, and uh I've I've been on I've been a guest a couple times I've been with you guys and with John, and we know the good work you're doing. And like I said, I got to see it front first at Echo last year and looking forward to Philadelphia uh and seeing more of that. Uh any closing thoughts, Blake, and then Mike?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:37

I'm just really grateful uh that we're all able to sit down and do this. Um I think having these conversations and learning from the different aspects of public safety, law enforcement, rest search, rescue, uh the medical side, we can all take those little bits from each other and and work with the things that. Hey, this they tried it, it didn't work. Why the hell are we gonna do that? You know? And then the answer could be like, well, because they don't operate that way, maybe we do, right? Or and vice versa. Be like, well, it didn't work for them. It's definitely not gonna work for us, right? So I'm really appreciative of this opportunity that we get to share from the different perspectives of the different aspects of what this world is of public safety aviation. And I think that this was a great conversation. And I don't, like I said, we probably left with more questions than answers, but maybe we answered a few along the way.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:33

Um, and I I had a great time. Great. Thanks, Blake.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:36

Mike, finish us up. Yeah, Jack, thank you so much. I mean, it it's been an absolute honor to come on here and be part of Now the Hangers E podcast. Uh, I guess it's uh, you know, we're going back and forth on on when we get to do guest appearances, but it's an honor and a privilege and and uh appreciate the kind words about the Bower Flight Crew Podcast. Um it's been uh it's been a ton of fun, and we've had some great mentors along the way, yourself included. So I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:01

Kind words.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:02

But yeah, this has been a great conversation. Um thank you for having us on. Uh I love having these kind of conversations. I if nothing else, it's thought-provoking. And I hope that, you know, for everyone that's listening, that they can go back to their bases and start to have these conversations around the crew table and really start to open up about how they are feeling and how they can improve upon it within their own organization. And that and that to me really means more than anything else is giving that um maybe food for thought that people can take back and really turn into their own and make work for themselves and for their own organization and continue to push this industry forward and make it safe for every day. We know we can't eliminate this risk, but we know that we can probably do some things to maybe help it out. And I think that these are the conversations where it starts. And I challenge every single person that's listening to take this back to their crews and to make it their own in their own base and their own home.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:54

I concur, Doctor. That is outstanding what you just said there, Mike. This should be a catalyst to get conversations going in your own units with your own crews and with yourself. Goes back to you know, the beginning, uh what Blake said, having that tough conversation with yourself, have it, you know, and see what you can change. I'll end with this. Uh uh Sleep Under Stress is the name of the article by Dr. Tanya Glenn. It's in uh go to vertical mag.com, go to Valor, Valor magazine, Valor Plus, and it's on page 26. Uh sleep under stress. There's some dynamite information in there about what we're talking about. It's really well written. Tanya's very experienced. She's one of my favorite guests we've ever had on, and she's saving lives left and right. And this topic will be just added to the list of things that she shares expertise on that will save people. So with that, um, thank you to MHM, Vertical Helicast, Valor Plus, Echo, uh, for all the support for both our podcasts, uh, the Valor Flight Crew podcast and the Hanger Z podcast. We're thrilled to be collaborating on this. And with that, I'll just say from all of us at both the Valor Flight Crew and the Hanger Z, stay safe, and we'll catch you the next time on either of those podcasts. That's how I'm gonna end here. Make sure you're checking out uh all the podcasts and vertical hello cast. Stay safe, everybody.