Safety deviation: The drift you don’t see coming part 2 | Ep 71

Welcome back to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, hosted by ECHO and brought to you by Vertical HeliCASTS and Valor Plus.

In this episode of the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, hosts Mike Fadale and Blake Shrider sit down with Bryan Evans, an experienced aviation and emergency medical services (EMS) leader, to explore what truly shapes a resilient safety culture. 

From the subtle drift of normalized deviations to the power of accountability, mindfulness, and open communication, this conversation examines how both organizations and frontline crew members contribute to safer operations.

Bryan shares powerful real-world stories that highlight the impact of transparency, psychological safety, and deliberate leadership. Together, the team discusses practical strategies for reinforcing positive behaviors, identifying cultural blind spots, and bridging the gap between written policies and day-to-day practice.

Safety isn't built by a policy manual, a checklist, or a single leadership decision. It's built every day through the choices we make, the conversations we have, and the standards we're willing to uphold—even when no one is watching. Whether you're a pilot, clinician, mechanic, communicator, or leader, safety culture belongs to all of us. The question isn't whether you influence it—it's how.

So join us and we look at safety from a different perspective and explore what it takes to cultivate a stronger, more resilient culture of safety in HEMS.

Thank you to our sponsors Airbus, Metro Aviation and Precision Aviation Group.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

This week, the Bower Flight Crew Podcast welcomes Brian Evans to discuss safety deviation. We're more concerned about our feelings, our crew members' feelings, our patients' feelings, rather than looking at this from an objective, objective 30,000-foot view of is this the right thing in the right situation at the right time? And I hope that everyone out there that's listening to this does feel empowered enough to raise that question and make that decision when something really doesn't feel right. Welcome back to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, hosted by Echo and brought to you by Vertical Helicast and Valor Plus. What really makes strong safety culture? In this episode, we sit down with helicopter air ambulance leader Brian Evans to explore the everyday choices, conversations, and behaviors that shape safer operations. From normalized deviations and accountability to psychological safety and leadership, Brian shares real-world lessons and practical strategies for building a more resilient culture. Whether you're a pilot, clinician, mechanic, communicator, or leader, this episode will challenge the way you think about safety and your role in creating it. Thank you to our sponsors, Airbus, Metro Aviation, and Precision Aviation Group.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Welcome to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. Brought to you by Vertical Helicast, produced in partnership with Echo, Every Coast Helicopter Operations. The Valor Flight Crew Podcast promotes the personnel and life-saving equipment behind helicopter air ambulance services. Join hosts Mike Fidelity and Blake Strider for in-depth interviews and expert insights from air medical personnel, pilots, communications specialists, and maintenance crews who play critical roles in airport emergency response technique.

SPEAKER_05 2:20

And I hope that everyone out there that's listening to this does feel empowered enough to raise that question and make that decision when something really doesn't feel right. And I hope that every single person that's listening out there has a leadership team that is willing to listen to them. Because I agree that this is something that absolutely has to go both ways, and that we can't continue to accept our little variances from what the norm should be. That's just not okay. And I guess I'm curious from your point of view then, Brian, do you feel that this accountability that we have? Like, so who has the higher accountability at the end of the day? Do you feel that that comes more from the leadership perspective, or do you feel that that's more on the crew perspective? Like where does that accountability meter land between those two?

SPEAKER_06 3:27

Yeah, I think it almost um kind of varies depending on what what lens you're looking at it through. The one thing I just before I forget, uh that I want to come back to is, you know, what you were saying, Mike reminds me a lot of something that I've heard people talk about too. Is we often talk frequently, without question, about what went wrong and what we didn't get right. How often do we talk about what did go right? And, you know, I gotta I I have a dozen ways that somebody on the front line could tell us what went wrong, report a problem, etc. You know, they're gonna have to look through a lot of layers to find that one opportunity to be able to report like uh the hey, you know, this guy did a really good job this day, you know, thank God she was my partner today, you know, she really spoke up for this. But so I, you know, I I think where my mind naturally goes to, Mike, is you know, if it goes wrong, you know, where are people gonna start looking first? And I think that's kind of where I go at ultimate responsibility. And when something goes wrong, the the masses at large are gonna look at leadership and say, how could you let this happen? Um but I think those that are closer to it know that there is a lot more onus and it will be more successful with ownership if you are the biggest advocate for for yourself.

SPEAKER_05 4:51

Yeah, I like that. And I I think that that that advocacy is so key in this.

SPEAKER_06 4:56

Yeah, Russell, um, I think I think he was the one that said safety champion recently on on his discussion with you, and that was, you know, we've got a safety chair, we've got safety councils, got people for safety, but you know, that is as nuanced as it can be, that that really does. If you know, safety advocate, safety champion. I I think just those little things are just one more you know, one more opportunity to just maybe train our brains to view it a little bit differently. And it does that help disrupt the normalization of deviance. You know, we went back to walk arounds, and you know, if you do your walk around the same way you've done it the last 15 years, are you really doing an effective walk around? Or, you know, it's like right, you know, you you write an email or write a paper and you proofread it and it was perfect, and then you come back and say, Well, that's not what I I wrote. Well, no, it is what you wrote. You're you know, your mind just saw it the the way you've done it and read it 20 times over. It's you know, same theory to to walk around. So I think that's you know, when we think again about what we can do differently is, you know, how do we kind of trick our brain? How do we, you know, break that uh that norm of and shake things up a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

But Brian, I I think a very valid, I don't want to know if a solution, but maybe a step in the right direction is exactly what you said. We don't talk about a lot of the things that we get right a lot, you know, and I think uh, you know, being, you know, I identify as human. Um, you know, we we get so afraid, like we're there's always this worry, right? And I think if you ask anybody in in in EMS or hems, pilots, whatever, you know, you ask like, well, I just don't want to get in trouble, right? I don't want to do something wrong. And there's always like a consequence. There's always this, like, well, if I do this, this may happen. And so naturally you you you kind of have this mindset of, well, I just gotta do all these things because I don't want to get in trouble. And you know, and I think inherently as humans, we we naturally in this job we do things for the right reasons, you know, because we want to get it right and we want to do it to help people. But I think when it comes to these nuances, the things that we can do to make us safer, whether it be processes, you know, attitude, yeah, you know, all these different things. If we were to really highlight more often, I think the the things that we do right and the positive effects that come from that, maybe that's a step in the right direction to our brains now switch instead of worried about what could go wrong and how I would get in trouble. To hey, I was able to bring up something that I saw and it worked out that we were able to make a great change and nothing had happened. You know, it wasn't until an event it didn't come forward because of an event. We were able to bring it forward because it was identified. I at the crew level found something, brought it to my leadership, and from the leadership level brought it to everybody, and we're able to make a change. And I think maybe, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, that sounds like a good way to maybe shift that mindset to have to maybe interrupt, maybe so to speak, that normalization of DBS. Like maybe that's a way to stop or interrupt that process, and it it retrains us to think that it's okay, I can bring this forward because I know that I don't have to have the right answer, but maybe I can bring up this thing that I saw. Like you said, if I start my walk around on the left side of the aircraft, I close the pilot door, I make sure the um the crew door and I go around. What if I just started every other day I went opposite, right? Or I did something to just interrupt that kind of flow, but it keeps my attention in the right, you know, frame of mind to where it's that you don't see the same thing. It's not groundhog day, right? You know, the same thing day after day. I don't know. To me, that sounds like a great way to help that this process along, to make it more positive and where people will speak up and and and good things happen and not just worry about the bad things.

SPEAKER_06 8:54

I think this topic epitomizes any little thing that changes it just in the most minuscule way can can matter. Like I think about, I imagine a lot of uh agencies out there participate in the kind of prom promise every 15-minute mock crush uh programs at the high schools every year. And um, ever since I've been involved with those, even like kind of before hems at the you know, being involved in the fire and EMS and planning those events, you know, they everybody involved in that process truly means if it if that all that work coordination for those programs makes a difference to just one student that day, it is absolutely truly worth it. And I I I think that has a lot of similarities to this of you know what changes my brain or my frame of thinking and reference versus yours versus Mike's. It could all be different. And it might, you know, Mike might, you know, giggle and shrug his shoulders at you know what you thought helped you be more safe at work, you know, whereas it is gonna be something that you're gonna think about every day, every time you come to work for the next decade.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

Yeah. And and I really like where we're going with this. And and then this is obviously conversations that we've kind of talked about and touched upon in prior episodes as well. You know, I think back to uh talking about debriefs with um Sean Gavin, I think about uh conversations we've had with with Russell and some of the others uh talking about safety and even taking it into like on a personal level in the conversation that we had about precepting new employees with uh Zaynatensio. I I think back to when when you're forced to sit down and think about what you did right or what you did well in that situation, that's often the harder thing to do. It's easy to identify all the things that went wrong. It's easy to talk about all of that stuff that that didn't go the way you wanted it to when you talk about taking care of that patient or about the the transport. I find it's easy to talk about those things. But when I have to sit there and think about what I did well, because a lot of us just look at it at the end of the day of saying, well, that's just my job. Right? Like that's just what I'm supposed to be doing. But I think that we need to reinforce these positive concepts, and I think that we need to identify at least a couple of things on each of these transports that we do, whether that be from an aviation perspective or from a uh a care perspective or communication perspective, I don't care what it is, I think that we need to identify things that were positive that made that transport go well and reinforce those in a different way. Because I think reinforcing the positive, if we if all we do is focus on the negative, that's all we're ever going to look for. And we're not going to push ourselves further from a safety perspective because we're just gonna say, well, no, don't do that. But well, what what should we do instead? What did we do that made this better? And I think that's where we need to shift those. And I try to do that with you know any of the debriefs that I have both, you know, uh on the medical and aviation side of things, and try to remember to ask that question. But I think that's the hard one that we oftentimes forget about. And and I I don't know how to reframe that thinking. I I really don't. I don't know. If you have any ideas, please share with the class because you've got to have something you've got to have something.

SPEAKER_06 12:07

I I think it gets even worse too, depending on um, or more challenging, not worse, depending on how some programs are structured. So my program uh currently, as it sits today, is four helicopter bases and then a ground base, and everybody rotates through at least two of the bases and the and the ground base. Now it might be rather infrequently, but the everybody rotates a little bit. So it's different than a lot of places, I think, in the industry where it's the same group all the time. So, you know, not only do we have to celebrate those successes, but we've got to find ways to cascade that information across, you know, 90, 80 people working 24-7, 365 spread out across multiple locations. So, you know, we I think we've made a little bit. I mean, this is not industry groundbreaking by any stretch, but maybe it'll have an impact for somebody. So I'll share it. But we started adding our health system uses mission moments kind of as their recognition. And it's exactly what Mike said of, you know, you'll hear other mission moments from throughout the organization, and you're like, well, that's what our guys do before they even, our guys and girls do before they even have breakfast. Like, you know, and you know, this is uh, you know, an annual celebration uh accomplishment. And so I think that leads to us naturally taking some of that uh for granted. But we did, we've we've tried uh both at the team level and the system level, we're calling more attention to those. We added it as simple as it sounds to our daily uh Huddle template, you know, every morning where we're you know recognizing people. And it has it has definitely we're not perfect. There's still too many, you know, days in a month where there's not something new there for a couple days in a row. But it absolutely has. I I have definitely seen an increase of people being like, hey, I want to mention my partner, or did you I I heard about this call at shift change. Did you hear about what what Mike and Blake did on this call? Like it was it was unreal. Um that would probably be true. Maybe not in the uh frame that uh that they were bringing it. It may not be a mission moment, it may be a memorable or it might might be that new policy. Yeah. Guaranteed. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

But uh, you know, and and I think that, you know, I as we have this conversation, I could just think of when I'm headed into work tomorrow, I know that I'm gonna have to be like, all right, man, do the right thing. And it's not that like I show up and I do the wrong thing, right? But it's like really be deliberate and and and and see it through, right? See the process. You know, I know I'm gonna have a trainee tomorrow, which I thoroughly enjoy because uh it's always it keeps me honest and it keeps me whole because I know that like as much as I try to prep for the the questions that are gonna come, as much as I want to have the answers, uh, I get really good at like, well, let's see what the book says, you know, let's check uh the guidelines, you know. Let's that's a great question. I I just feel like if if I can just make, like you said, those small differences, uh those small changes and see it through, you know, like sometimes it takes a little bit of time, but there's a reason why that process is in place or you know, whatever it is. There's a reason behind it. Probably that's that's why most policies are written, right? Because along the way, somebody did something that we needed to write a policy for. Don't be the reason we're gonna don't be the reason today.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

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SPEAKER_06 16:11

I I think, though, in that same light, what if, you know, do our policies match our process, or does our process match our policies? Like, you know, I I think when I think about the task saturated, you know, we we were recently talking about uh our health system merged with it with another health system, and we're looking at the future growing to be a nine helicopter program. And, you know, through some of that, we were talking about different things, looking at system, you know, different who uses what system and some of that kind of stuff. And, you know, it's like every day, you know, if I'm one of my, and again, I'm the one that essentially is setting that this should all be done, but you know, the schedule's in one system, the charting's in one system, you're gonna look at Epic to get your information and the inner facility to put it into the charting system. You're gonna go over here to this system where the chart got sent for your QA. By the way, you've got to do your uh hospital education in this system, you've got to do your aviation partner education in this system. Like, at what points does that tax saturation come into it? So, you know, I use that the same thing of like, does the process really make sense? Like, we absolutely need policies, we need checklists, but I think one of the reasons you can start to see the drift or the normalization that we talk about is that we have policies that don't match the process. And if we if we can take a harder look at some of those, and uh, I mean, if any of my my team listens to this, they'll probably be uh having some choice words for me because they'll be like, yo, you you you tell the rest of the country we could change this, but what what what are we doing? What are we doing under our own roof, bro? Um but uh I don't know, they call me bro, but in my mind they do. So um I like it. But uh yeah, like what can are we doing the job that we need to do in in that regard? Um to to be able to are those some of those little things that we could cut out that if we remove some of that, we're gonna get better compliance and we're gonna get better buy-in at whatever it is along the way.

SPEAKER_04 18:15

That's a very great point. And I think right now, anybody listening, if you're to take a shot for every type of different system that you had to go into to do so bad. But it's the truth, though.

SPEAKER_05 18:26

It is absolutely the truth. And it's like we expect policies and procedures to be there, but then we put all these barriers in place that don't allow them to happen.

SPEAKER_04 18:37

Why do we do this to ourselves? Why why do we do this? And I and you know, and I think we joke about this a lot because we're like, man, that was someone's like before they retired, that was their lasting gift that they were leaving was like, you know what, I'm gonna create this and then I'm out. You know, uh I don't know. Uh you know, but it I I think you know, obviously, I think a lot of it comes from the most well-intended purpose, you know, but I think we should look at it and be like, hey, you know what, that kind of sucks. You know, or it's it that's very tedious, and maybe that that is too cumbersome and it's not realistic. And I think, Brian, that is such a great concept. And I hope for people listening, may or may not be my programs, um, you know, for uh, hey, man, maybe we could tweak that a little bit, or we have a lot of processes for this policy or whatever, you know. Like, I don't know, but I but I think if we could acknowledge optimism and change I know it's the subtle, it's the subtle jabs I throw out there. Yes, you know, maybe we can improve those things. And I think Brian, that's a great concept. It's like, well, why don't we get the the compliance? That's another word people love. Why don't I get compliance? Well, because yeah, I have to jump through. I have to, first of all, I have to have like four single sign-ons and I have to change my password every 30 days, you know, and then I can't remember the one, and then I can't use one of the same seven passwords that I had to be able to log into this thing. So, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna email it to myself and put it in this way. So there you go.

SPEAKER_06 20:03

Yeah. No, and uh any of us in leadership know that despite our you know best intentions or what our leadership philosophies may be, like there's no doubt we all on a somewhat routine basis, probably more than we would like, you know, solve a problem by making 12 other problems, uh, 12 other problems along the way. I think though that for those, you know, we have a very robust shared governance process that we're very proud of and that is, you know, constantly growing. I think that's common in a lot of places in the industry, but not in others. But I think that's why it's so important for that model so that there is a voice that people aren't there being like, this process does not work for us, this bag does not work for us, but they don't feel like they have a mechanism to take it, uh, to take it back to be able to like even introduce the idea of can we consider uh can we consider something else? And even those that, you know, I think one of the links for for some of us might be a little bit different for Mike's program than than Blake for your eye is then where's the level of, you know, between if you're aviation, if you're not part 135, if you have an aviation partnership, you know, your your pilots and your maintainers have a different in theory reporting structure than the clinical crews do. And you know, so safety reporting can be in different uh in different uh in different systems. Do those systems, you know, is there a mechanism somewhere where we make sure that if it gets in one, somebody on the other, I don't like saying that, but you know, that it that it that it crosses over. But you know, like I I debate this, and we've talked about this for a couple of years. Like, do our line pilots really have the voice to be able to say, like, you know, this ops council keeps buying new bags, you know, but obviously we all joke about bags. We had ops council yesterday. It's Blake's favorite topic. So I'm twitching right now. We're not doing a bag survey, but but there might be a New module coming, and that's not for me. I just want to throw that out there. But like, you know, we've talked about it. That group of like, you know, we'll be like, we'll get the greatest idea in the world, we'll buy it, we'll roll it out. And now the first time somebody walks out with it and the pilot's looking at us, like, what are you guys doing here? Like, you know, we've got to recalculate CG, we've got to reconfigure a program. And like, even with the best intentions, there's just times where you you overlook that. And so, you know, we've been talking recently about how do we make sure that everybody at every phase has that voice to be able to say, like, you know, can we take a step back when we get excited about a new project and initiative and be like, all right, let's bring, I know this may seem simple, it's a bag, but let's bring all the stakeholders together and be like, okay, maintenance, do we have a way to secure this? Oh, we're gonna hang a 40-found. We just had this discussion yesterday with maintenance. Oh, we're gonna, you know, hang a 30-pound object from something that's supposed to hold a coat. Yeah, we probably need to look at a different uh way of securing this, but you know, and the hustle and bustle and everything, great intentions, and we, you know, we we start to to uh overlook that at times.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

But I think what what we've been talking about the past couple of minutes is kind of the the epitome of where we need to, or or maybe this is is ground zero of where we need to examine these processes, is that we we expect safety culture to occur, we expect people to step up, we expect people to do walk-arounds, we expect them to do all of these different things, but then we never look at the factors that are preventing them from doing those things. So if I'm gonna create a new policy, if I'm going to uh, you know, initiate, if I'm gonna bring in a new bag, right? Like I need to break down the barriers that are preventing these things from happening. And so I think that that is so important with safety culture in that if we are expecting someone to be safe, if we are expecting someone to speak up, um, that we need to do a better job of breaking down those barriers for them to do that. And and that I think is where the core of the culture comes in, at least in in my head, and I'm I'm please feel free to agree to disagree or or uh lead me in a different direction talking about that. But I feel like that's where the core of the culture is, is in taking down enough barriers so that safety culture can occur, but keeping enough there that keeps people accountable.

SPEAKER_06 24:29

I don't know that anybody could sum it up better than that.

SPEAKER_05 24:32

Do we examine those processes on a regular basis to make sure they are working for us, or is this just how we've always done it and we're stuck in that way?

SPEAKER_06 24:43

I think we all are guilty of uh uh of that uh from time to time. And again, another one of those chalk it up is more frequently than uh than I'd like to omit. And then, you know, again, how do we use forums like these where we're you know at industry events talking with peers to be able to bring uh you know recognition to we're all like everybody loves these ideas? Like probably nobody's gonna go, very few people hopefully are gonna go back to their organizations that's gonna be like, no, that's an awful idea. We should not re-examine if what we're doing makes sense. Like the vast majority of people in organizations are are gonna be are going to be down for that. Um, and how do we, you know, how do we build that into, you know, are we looking at stuff, you know, do we say, okay, once a year we're gonna do policy review? We're gonna do a policy review, you know, one every month, you know, but even that, how many policies do we have? Long is it gonna take us to be able to get through how many, how many hundreds of policies do we have? Take you 10 years to to go over all of it. So what's a practical way to be able to do that? You know, can we do can we do surveys? Like can we do uh an annual safety survey of our program? Say, hey, you know, we want your feedback, what's working, what's not working, what's an opportunity that you think we've had. Have you brought something forward that you know you felt was important and it's not been, you know, it doesn't have resolution now? You know, the loop closure thing is something back to that similar point about people being spread out across multiple locations. You know, how do we make sure everybody gets the message and we close the loop on that? Uh, I think that's a thing on culture that that I know personally I can always be better at. But when you think about like what makes culture, you know, closing the loop. Like there's nothing like ruining somebody wanting to be able to speak up that they bring something up and they hear nothing back about it.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Yeah. Man, that that hits. And and not because it it happens, because I feel like in my own aspect, I've had people ask me or hey, what do you think of this? I'm like, man, that's a great question. Let me look into it. And then I just get so busy, or you know, and it's my own doing of just being like, Man, I wasn't really focused on that, you know. So I I just I don't know, Brian, what what can I do to make myself better when not only I recognize something a behavior, a process, whatever it is, what can I do from a crew level perspective? How can I start that process? And and maybe I don't know if this is a a tougher question of like, and it's more than just speaking up, but like, what's the next step? Because I feel like predominantly for most programs, people are able to at least speak up or have an avenue to report something. But what's the step after that? So if I've brought it forward and I let's say that you you do hear something back, but it it and it's just kind of hanging in limbo or or whatever. Like, so what can I do, or anybody else listening as from the crew level, what can you do to keep keep it moving forward or keep it highlighted to make sure a behavior or something doesn't get overlooked or missed.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

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SPEAKER_06 28:26

Uh vaguely post about it on social media. Step one. Yeah, I I think you have to be comfortable. Uh, you know, we always have this comfortable, uncomfortable, but you know, you have to be, you know, we have to design the system so that if there's not resolution, somebody can say, you know, bring it up again, or maybe it's something, you know, that we're gonna revisit. Um, you know, I think coming forward solutions-oriented is always, you know, it's easy, you know, uh it's it's easy for all of us to say what's wrong, but there's not always a fix. And I think we could all do more of, you know, uh, I may somebody may bring something to me, I can't wrap my brain around it, uh, don't have a great idea jumping out, but you know, the person that's it's been weighing on, that's been thinking about all the time, may have a lot of great ideas. But again, do we promote that open uh dis that open discussion? You know, I think it's also easy just because, you know, we all we all have bosses, you know, as bosses and in leadership, there may be things that were, uh I'm not talking like ethically, but there may be something that I may agree on, something that I want to buy that I I want to invest in, but it's just not practical right now. I just can't do it. So I think that we can all at times be bad about just throwing our arms up, like, you know, so just because we heard no once or it didn't work out at that one particular time doesn't mean that six months later we shouldn't be like, hey, you know, we've you know, we've been able to overcome this and this in this time frame. So, you know, they were bigger priorities at the time. Can we, can we have another, can we open this discussion uh back up? But I I think that all of us not just, you know, throwing our arms up and being able to to course correct and come back to it is is is important. Um, and I think that absolute ownership too, for each, you know, you said individually, you know, you talked before about you know you're going to work tomorrow and you know, the little pep talk that you give yourself, like our what are we doing when no one's watching? I I think that's what really defines for each of us. When when we take it back to, you know, our why that uh, you know, I need to be my own advocate, and what am I doing when nobody's watching?

SPEAKER_05 30:42

Yeah. And this was a similar concept that we ended up talking about uh in uh one of the other podcasts with Russell. And it's like, you know, when when nobody's looking, are you still doing the right thing? Or are you cutting corners? And and that's a personal thing that you need to look into. But I think that's not just a personal thing, that's an organizational thing too. You know, like that goes beyond just the individual. And we all need to make sure that we're holding each other accountable. And I think that that brings in the whole crew dynamics aspect of it too, right? Like, how does how does this culture safety change when now you start focusing on the crew level as opposed to the individual level? Because I think that that that's a huge dynamic in and of itself. Like that's a whole other piece of this puzzle that we sometimes don't really take into account. And and while we've kind of scratched the surface, I think, of some of it earlier, talking about not wanting to let our partners down, not wanting to let our patients down, those kind of things. You know, are there other crew dynamics that really tend to shape what this overall culture looks like? And how do we maintain that positive culture within some of those crew dynamics that may not always be the best?

SPEAKER_06 31:51

Yeah, I think um I did uh a thing for the future flight leaders last year on some communication was the the topic that I was uh gifted. So uh thanks to to Hamilton and Cohen out there. I don't know that it was everyone's favorite topic. You know, I don't know that it was the uh the most engaging topic I could have been awarded, but but it ended up being, you know, even just preparing for that is as I was kind of doing some research and going through stuff, it you know, it made you uh kind of made you think, you know, but you have to be, we keep going back to that comfort, and you know, your reason, you know, is you letting your partner that maybe not be the most ambitious take that shortcut every time, rubber stamp in the chore of the day, the daily checklist. Like, are you are you doing them a service? Are you doing their patients a service? Are you doing yourself a service? You know, are you what matters what matters more? Is it you know, that kind of couple minutes of a grown-up, like, hey man, we gotta talk. Like, I've really noticed that, you know, we're we're we're skipping some steps here, and you know, I think this is why why it's important. And I, you know, we're in the industry, we're empowered that you may be landing on a highway, you know, half repelling down a mountainside to RSI somebody trapped in a car, you're there for three hours and you come back, and we can't have a simple conversation like, hey, you know, you're kind of a slob every day that I come in to relieve you and I and I'm sick of it. Like where if if we can be empowered and we can successfully accomplish the first part of that, I'm very confident that we can we can have that second uh part of it, but we laugh because we all know it's happening every day. We can all think of our own. And again, we've we've all done that. I think it comes, I think that comes with, you know, kind of uh time where you start to get more comfortable with with some of those types of things.

SPEAKER_05 33:43

Yeah, and I think it's interesting. It it's crazy because we we're so like we we deal with confrontation every single day. You know, we go to that referring facility and the maybe the physician isn't happy with what we're doing, and we have to deal with that confrontation and be able to have those conversations and maintain that customer service that goes along with it and and still take care of the patient and multitask this incredibly complex situation that's in front of us from many levels, and we come back to base and we can't have a simple conversation about why something is bothering us, right? Like I like those those, and and I I get it. We we want to make sure that we're we're spending, you know, 12 or 24 hours with this person, sometimes maybe longer, right? We want it to be a positive experience. We want it to work well for the team. We want to make sure that everybody likes each other and goes home happy at the end of the day. But I think we either keep our mouths shut sometimes because we are afraid of what the other person is going to think of us, or we're too afraid about making them unhappy that we deal with being unhappy ourselves in this situation. When our patients are involved, it's a different story. We're going into it with the assumption that we're all in there to do the right thing and for the right reasons and to make this better for the patient. But yeah, we don't take that into account when it's in our own house, quote unquote, you know, at the base. Uh, and and we all have those partners we love working with and those partners we hate working with, right? Like we we can all think back in our career and think about some of the best partners and some of the worst partners. And would it have made a difference if I would have said something in that moment?

SPEAKER_06 35:24

And I think what we what we have to do in in these moments where it's not stressful, where it's not chaotic, we're not looking back is if something catastrophic happened today, do you want to be that person that looks back going, man, I wish I would have spoken up? Like and I think you just, you know, we have to all be kind of united and bought into the little things do really matter, and we can't take any of those for for granted. Um, and again, it I think if if you're not comfortable having that conversation, you know, look towards one of your other partners that you, you know, can get advice for. Go to leadership. Like there are obviously there's other ways to do that. I think it goes back to just the, you know, that's the normalization of D let deviance. Like that's accepting, you know, kind of accepting mediocrity and just saying, well, it's always been this way, so we're gonna keep doing it this way, you know, those the that that uh that infamous phrase. Um yeah. And I just think it it's it's it's it's so unique for us because you know, there's I'm sure there's some other industries out there, but if you really break it down, how many other industries does truly everybody show up that day with the same goal of we all want to take really good care of people and we want to go home safely? And there's not a person, no matter what their role is in the organization, that goes to work that day thinking they want to make a mistake that's gonna harm a patient or themselves, or that they, you know, want to have something that leads to a bad outcome. So if we can get through, you know, again, all this is easier said than done, every other little distraction of Brian just sent me out the 14th system that I've got to log into every day. And, you know, well, base three took that call, should have been a base one call. I don't understand why we're going at like if we can just, you know, find ways to kind of channel our energy and and find that kind of true north uh on a more frequent basis, we could probably realign on some of it. But Mike, I want to go back to something that you'd said because I thought it was um key. You know, you had mentioned like that, the the the age-old uh referring, uh unhappy referring provider kind of thing. I think that we can use that as an example of where we've grown in the industry because it it I wasn't in the industry two decades ago, two and a half decades, three decades ago. But I know from just kind of you know working with with colleagues who have been, and through what I've seen, some of the trends, you know, kind of the growth of the industry, there would have been a day where it would have been like, that doctor's upset, our policy is we we get out of here and we figure it out in a helicopter. And I know that my colleagues, you know, because they're they're calling the AOC, they're calling the medical director and they're saying, like, hey, we're this pay, we're gonna kill this patient if we move right now, and what can we do? Is that you know, a conversation with the AOC and the medical director and their provider, you know, if it's if they've already tried that at the crew level, it's not going like that's a way we've grown. That's the way I think the industry has evolved for the right by doing what's right. And I think you can kind of pivot and draw some parallels to to the topics that that we've been we've been chatting about in the same regard.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

You know, and it highlights that whole it's not just me, it's not just my partner or just the pilot, it's really that team, and it's that team dynamics. And I'm sure people's heads are gonna spin off when you think of like the the AHA instructions, and you know and you think about when you have the team dynamics and how you know, and you do the the the training for that, but uh it really does just really uh uh help us, you know, maybe it bridges those gaps in those moments, right, when things are happening to just to to make those quick um, hey, are you sure that's what we should do? Or hey, do you think maybe I should phone a friend on this, you know, with this patient? Or maybe I should go talk to the pilot because I know if you and I are kind of thinking maybe the weather isn't, but he's okay with it. Can we just go ask? You know, and I think that's great that we, you know, really and you know embrace the team dynamics aspect of it. And I think, you know, of all the podcasts we've done, we did one with the pilots where you know Matt Johnson, he referred to pilots as a meat servo. You know, and and we're not just self-loading baggage, you know. I think there's been just such a good change over the years about we all are an integral part of making these patient encounters, these flights, missions, you know, whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_06 40:04

We can't call it a mission, that's unsafe.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

Yeah, I know, right? But we all have such an important aspect. And if any of us are kind of lacking at any point in time, that really leaves us open to it maybe something happening. And it doesn't have to be catastrophic, it doesn't have to be, it could be something very minor, but it still could lead to any type of incident. And so I think what's really been great for seeing over the years is that we're we are all have an important role, and the roles are so important, but and when we are all being working with integrity, doing the right things when people aren't looking, that our roles really define how we get these patient transports or these patient encounters performed done successfully, and the patient gets great care, they get where they need to go, and we are supported as a crew. And I feel like it's so important like the team dynamic aspect of that. But you know, there are times where we notice that maybe somebody or you know, another part of that team dynamics might not be at their best. Like, how do we address like I guess that aspect, I guess is what I'm trying to say, and like and moving forward? Like we want it to be a positive experience, you know, but if we notice that one of us is either faultying or or whatever, it you know, how do we do that and still recognize and make sure like nobody feels like they were just like dumped on or it was their fault, but we're all integral, we're all an important aspect of that. And so whether it's from leadership or crew, like how do we really address that and not lose the team dynamic aspect, but really use that to highlight that, hey, we you know, maybe this didn't go so great, but like how do we make that improvement?

SPEAKER_06 41:54

If you got the secret sauce for that one, Blake, I think uh I think we could all use uh a couple uh couple bottles of it for sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Thank you to our sponsor, Preston Aviation Group. Mission critical operators and fleet managers rely on Priscision Aviation Group as a worldwide leading rotor and fixed-wing MRO provider. TAG provides tip-to-tail solutions in four MRO segments: avionics, components, engines, and manufacturing DER services. A single point of contact gives you access to over 150 million in inventory globally 24-7. Just call 800-537-2778, Presticision Aviation Group. Others sell parts, we sell support.

SPEAKER_06 42:40

I think it goes back to like those are probably the things that, you know, I mentioned before, like, you know, what really how do we measure culture? Like what actually makes, you know, make helps us know if we have that. And I think that if the environment is more, if anybody feels the environment's conduce more conducive to that, that they have avenues, whether it being like, all right, listen, you know, Blake's worked with Mike for for like 10 years, they've been partners. I don't know that I'm the right person to have this conversation, but let me go talk to him and see if you know he has some advice for me. Or, you know, it's kind of the I I think that we can't just take acceptance. We can't just throw do the throw our our arms up and say it's gonna be this way, it's it's not gonna change uh those types of things. Um, you know, I I don't know that I have another great uh philosophy or uh easy low-hanging fruit for that.

SPEAKER_05 43:35

Okay, I mean you you gotta be unwilling to accept mediocrity, right? Unwilling to accept unsafe behaviors, unwilling to accept cutting corners. And I think that that's like I I feel like that for the most part is ingrained in most of us coming into this industry, right? Like we are very on top of our game, we feel like we are competent. Providers, whether that be on the clinical side or competent aviators on the uh pilot side or competent maintainers, and we are at the top of our game in another area and we feel like we're ready to take on this particular facet of it, right? Because we've been so accustomed to making sure that we are doing what's right every time to get us to this point. So why are we so willing to accept less than that in others? And I think that that's where the challenge comes in, is that we we somehow have to reframe that both on a personal and an interpersonal way to really bring it back to safety and and and safety is the overall goal, like we've talked about. There's no secret in that. But we have to be able to look at it from that objective lens. And whether we're talking about cleaning up after yourself around the base, or we're talking about identifying a major safety issue on a flight, right? Like you have to have that both personal and interpersonal accountability to step up to the plate and do the thing that needs to be done or say the thing that needs to be said. Uh and I I hope that people do feel empowered for that. I think that that is so incredibly important. And I hope that the precedent is being set from our leaders out there that that is the expectation. And I hope that from a crew level, that the expectation is being set that I'm concerned about all of our safety, and I am unwilling to accept anything less than that, and I'm going to speak up. And I really hope that those two avenues meet in a very happy medium and work very cohesively together. I I hate to see when things happen in the industry, and I'm not just talking about crashes when preventable things go wrong and we didn't catch it or say something ahead of time. And it it just takes me again back to the statement of I don't want to know about a safety event after it happens. And I hope that each of us can take that home and really think about the safety within our own organizations and how can we continue to push that safety envelope forward. Because I think that if we can't first have that introspect look at ourselves, identify something that you can do personally, I think it's extremely hard to bring it to the organization because we all play an important part in this. And and um I think that we need to have that. We owe it to ourselves, we owe it to our partners, and we owe it to our patients, and we owe it to our families, right? Like we all of these people are counting on us to do the right thing each and every time. And when we accept this deviation, we're we're moving in the wrong direction. And and I know we've all been guilty of it, but I challenge each and every one of us that are listening out there to recognize those small signs and do the thing that you need to do to maintain that personal accountability. Because anything we've talked about at this podcast in the last hour and a half that we've been discussing has been those minute things that every single one of us has control over. I don't care if you're on the leadership side, I don't care if you're on the crew side, I don't care what role you have, every single one of us has complete control over every little thing that we've talked about today. We we need to we need to do better and we need to continue moving forward and doing the right thing and identifying those positives in the industry.

SPEAKER_06 47:56

You know, maybe Mike, one of the things that we can frame it as is the connect to purpose and really helping everybody from day one understand that all those little things matter, not just, you know, does this person good at their walk arounds, but you know, that that's where that drift can become when we take a little shortcut over here from our daily chore, etc. And I go back to, you know, Blake kind of asked from the front, what from the crew can do is, you know, from the frontline crew, like uh no leader can be there 24-7, 365, no matter what the size of the organization is. So, you know, Zayn, uh the podcast with Zane talked a lot about, you know, each of us as leaders, you know, and how the all the uniqueness of that just on background for people to come here. But that's probably the single biggest thing we could do is set the example. When a new person comes in the organization, I don't know in the early days how much they're really looking to me to set the tone for safety versus, you know, Mike, you talked earlier about your first flight and looking to those, like that's what set the tone to you. That was your first experience, that's what you remember. And that's probably where we could make sure that we're we're more solid is, you know, are we are we the crew member that we want the next crew member to be the one to learn from and you know, last throughout their career, take those moments away of you know, this is the right thing to do, this is why we do it, those types of things. Love it.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

Absolutely love it. Yeah, I I could just replay in my head like all the times where I've just wanted to be a little bit lazy, you know, and I've just looked for a way to just have an excuse to be lazy, right? You know, be like, dude, I've done like four flights, man. Like, you know what, I'll restock. You know, I just want to lay down. If I set out this stuff, and then I'll put it back, you know, I'll put it back before shift change, you know. But I just I just want to lay down, you know. And I'm just using it on it as an example, right? But then what happens? You get that fifth flight, you know, you or whatever it is, you get that next flight, and now you're scrambling to grab all the stuff that you were I set it out, and then you get in there and you're like, ah, well, I didn't restock the glucometer, you know, or you know, whatever it is, but you just forget something and it and that's those little things. And I can just think of as we've had this discussion of all the ways that I can just be better every day by just those small things really add up, you know, just like every pound matters, you know, for the aircraft, you know, like it's all these little small things matter in our day-to-day disciplines, and it may not seem like much, but those little things that we forget could have a larger impact down the road. So I know there's a ton of areas where I can improve. I'm really glad that we've had this conversation. You know my checklist tomorrow will be spot on. It better be.

SPEAKER_06 50:55

And if any one of your partners come to me and say anything differently, but does your checklist make sense or do we need to change the checklist?

SPEAKER_05 51:01

Yeah. Truth. No, I really appreciate coming on and having this conversation with them, Brian. Uh, I I think it's so important to talk about these things. And the more we talk about them, the more we can normalize having these conversations and continuing to push that safety umbrella even larger and larger and make sure that we're actually practicing what we preach. Uh and I love having these conversations because for me personally, um, it is my daily reminder of the things that I need to be doing. And every time I go back to work, uh, it helps reinforce the um processes that I have in place, the policies that are already there, and continues to make me think about safety in a different way. And so I really appreciate you taking the time to come and speak with us and and especially on a topic that is so important. So um, you know, thank you again. It's been an awesome conversation and we really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06 51:56

Yeah, no, I appreciate the opportunity. And again, it's, you know, I'm walking away. I I've definitely, I think uh what you had said that, you know, you got from your leadership on the I never want to hear about a safety event after it happened. Like that's it, it's a different way of saying things, but I it was immediately impactful with me, and it is something that absolutely, you know, that that I'm gonna carry forward. So uh, you know, it's this is what it's all about is those uh the moments, the collaboration to be able to take it back. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 52:28

All right. Well, Brian, uh, thank you again. Hopefully we will see you down at Echo Philly, and hopefully we'll see all of our listeners there as well. Uh, this has been an amazing discussion today and uh something that we hope that all of you take back to your bases and really start to talk about uh on a more regular basis. Um since I know all of you caught up on the Valor Flight Crew podcast, make sure you head on over to verticalhelicast.com where you can check out the Hanger Z podcast, helicopter podcast, vertical MRO podcast. We really appreciate everybody for tuning in for another week uh and for your continued support of the vertical helicast platform and the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe to hear more stories that promote the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation. Lastly, stand by for a message from our sponsors.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Thank you to our sponsor, Precision Aviation Group. Mission critical operators and fleet managers rely on Preston Aviation Group as a worldwide leading rotor and fixed-wing MRO provider. TAG provides tip-to-tail solutions in four MRO segments: avionics, components, engines, and manufacturing DER services. A single point of contact gives you access to over 150 million in inventory globally 24-7. Just call 800-537-2778, Prestigian Aviation Group, other self-parts, we sell support. Thanks to our sponsor, Airbus. Airbus provides the most efficient helicopter solutions to its customers who serve, protect, save lives, and safely carry passengers in demanding environments. Its civil and military helicopters are flying all over the world, making missions possible. Visit Airbus.com for more information.

SPEAKER_05 54:36

As we wrap up this episode, we'd like to thank Brian Evans for sharing his experience, insights, and perspective on what it truly means to build and sustain a culture of safety. One of the biggest takeaways from today's conversation is that safety culture isn't something that exists in a mission statement or a policy manual. It's reflected in the actions we take every day. It's in the standards we uphold, the conversations we're willing to have, and the accountability we accept for ourselves and our teams. Every interaction is an opportunity to strengthen, or weaken the culture around you. Creating safer operations doesn't happen through a single initiative or leadership directive. It happens through deliberate behaviors, open communication, continuous learning, and the courage to speak up when something doesn't seem right. The strongest safety cultures are built by teams that remain vigilant, challenge complacency, and never stop looking for ways to improve. Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your colleagues and crew members. Together, we can continue advancing the conversations that make public safety aviation safer for our patients, our teams, and our communities. Until next time, stay safe, everyone, and be the culture you expect in others and your organizations.