Leading while carrying: The weight of public safety aviation Part 1 | Ep 72

Welcome back to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, hosted by ECHO and brought to you by Vertical HeliCASTS and Valor Plus.
 
Today’s public safety aviation leaders face challenges unlike any before. Staffing shortages, aging aircraft, limited resources, and a new generation of clinicians stepping into leadership roles earlier than ever have transformed the profession. Clinical excellence alone is no longer enough — the ability to lead, mentor, and develop others has become just as essential as providing exceptional patient care.
 
In this episode, we sit down with Terence Sheehy, operations deputy chief for Dare County EMS, to explore what it truly means to lead while carrying the weight of responsibility. From overcoming self-doubt and resisting the trap of comparison to building the next generation of leaders through mentorship, education, and intentional development, this conversation is filled with practical insights for anyone who influences others — whether you hold a formal leadership position or simply lead by example.
 
Leadership isn’t about having all the answers. It’s about having the courage to keep learning, the humility to ask questions, and the commitment to leave your team stronger than you found it. So buckle in as we explore how today’s leaders can help shape the future of public safety aviation.

Thank you to our sponsors Airbus, Spectrum Aeromed and Technisonic Industries.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

This week, the Valor Flight Crew Podcast welcomes Terrence Sheehe to discuss the challenges of leadership in public safety aviation.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

I cringe saying this word because I think it gets it gets a bad wrong rap, but being able to be vulnerable with your people and just being able to say, hey, you know what? I'm I'm not 100% sure on that. It's gonna take me a minute to find that out, and that's where to use that buzzword, that say due gap. And that can be another leadership challenge because every day, like a backpack, and that that's where I say leading while carrying, people are dumping stuff into that backpack throughout the day over the course of the days, weeks, and months. And what is my say due gap that if Blake says, hey, I got a question about, you know, whether it's follow-up for this patient or we keep having this problem with this piece of equipment, when are you gonna do something about it?

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Welcome back to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, hosted by Echo and brought to you by Vertical Helicast and Valor Plus. Leadership in public safety aviation has never been more challenging. As our industry evolves, today's leaders are being asked to do more with less, all while preparing the next generation to succeed. In this episode, we sit down with Terrence Sheehe, Operations Deputy Chief for Dare County EMS, to discuss leadership beyond the title, covering mentorship, growth, and the lessons every leader can use to build stronger teams and a stronger culture. Thank you to our sponsors, Airbus, Spectrum Aeromed, Technosonic Industries.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Welcome to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. Brought to you by Vertical Helicast, produced in partnership with Echo, every coast helicopter operation. The Valor Flight Crew Podcast promotes the personnel and life-stake equipment by helicopter air and do it services. Join DOS, flight fed out, and flight private for in-depth interviews and expert insights with air medical personnel, pilot, communicated effort, and magnets code to play critical roles in airborne emergency response.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Welcome back to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. As always, your host, Mike Fidale, and Blake Strider. We'll get right into it today. We have a really great podcast ahead here for you, and I'm really looking forward to this because I think as a whole, the industry for uh public safety aviation is changing, and specifically in the air medical industry, where I think we're seeing this um this trend that we're having to do a lot more with a lot less. Uh, we have a lot of uh staffing issues currently. We have uh significant, you know, the aging aircraft, and uh they obviously aren't cheap to purchase and continue to work with. And uh there's a lot of challenges that I think are facing our leadership teams that are out there. And I think that this is a concept that can be applied really from your senior crew members to your base leads to you know, your chief flight nurses and chief flight paramedics, all the way up through your program managers and directors. And so I'm really excited to have this conversation take. So I think it's something that's really going to hit home for a lot of people. So without further ado, we'd love to introduce our guest today. Our guest is Terrence Shehi. Terrence, how are you today?

SPEAKER_03 3:35

I am amazing. Thank you and honored to be with y'all.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Terrence, to kick it off, if you don't mind, if you can just give us a little bit of uh an introduction uh of yourself and a little background on your flight experience.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Yeah, uh, you know, every agency looks a little bit different. Every everything is is a little bit different. And so my job, uh, I'm the operations deputy chief with Dare County EMS. Uh so third service in eastern North Carolina. Uh our joke is if you go any further east from where we are, you're going to end up in another country. Uh so we we're the known as the Outer Banks, Barrier Island in eastern North Carolina. Uh our agency a little bit different. So we do ground and air. We our primary responsibility is is 911. Uh we do ground and air inner facility. We've got a critical access hospital. Uh the fun fact about our agency is Air EMS, we've we we own our own helicopter. Uh ground EMS actually predates uh, or I'm sorry, Air EMS uh predates ground EMS with our with our agency. So our agency having that helicopter uh is something that predates us having actual ambulances. Um if you came and visited our area, and and my paycheck depends on your tourism, so please come and visit us. Uh but but if you came and visited our area from our critical access hospital to the closest level one trauma center is Norfolk, Virginia. Um it's about an hour and 30 minutes by by ground. It's about 33, 34 minutes by by air. Um so my job, Operations Deputy Chief, all the day-to-day stuff. I started 29 years ago as an EMT. Uh our our aircraft has has evolved and changed over time from that sweet BK-117, the spaceship. Uh that that was really that that that that backbone of of Air EMS. Uh we uh we at that time as a as a ground paramedic, we would fill in and and backfill. So when the aircraft would get a flight, there was one flight paramedic assigned. Either uh the the other flight paramedic would respond to the hangar and and and go as that second uh flight paramedic. We were just a uh Part 91 general government non-billing aviation back then. Or uh there were a certain number of us as as uh ground medics that would were flight qualified and we would go backfill. So I I semi-say, hey, I've got some flight experience. It's not a lie, uh, but that was not my full-time job for like 28 years or anything like that. Over time, uh have promoted up through the uh through the ranks. Uh and over time uh our agency has changed a little bit. Um so where you were talking about aging and inexpensive aircraft, we upgraded a couple of years ago. Uh we have a H-145 that that D3 model, um, and super, super stoked that uh that's something that the that the county has worked with us to say, hey, we continue to be a remote area. This is an asset that we need, this is a tool in our area, um, and and definitely blessed that our our board of commissioners and our citizens support us so well with that.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Hey, and if I recall correctly, I think you guys are one of the first with the D3s in the country. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Uh we converted to that D3. I know that we were the first uh when when we did that H-145, that D2 model, uh, that that serial number, we were the first air medical, and um I think we were the first production uh that that uh model as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Very nice. Yeah, I've certainly heard about your program uh many times throughout the years. Uh all great things. I know I have uh friends that head down to the Outer Banks on a regular basis. So uh I have myself not been down there yet, so maybe I'll come down and and support your paycheck here soon.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Uh you should. We'd love to give you a tour, love to show you a little bit of of what we did. And some of that commitment is uh I think it was about two years ago the county built a new uh new aircraft hangar. And so where things look a little bit different, the county owns that aircraft. The pilots, uh, their county employees are our our mechanics, our county employees, double flight paramedics, county employees. Nice uh the county built a new $10 million uh hangar for for our folks uh last last two years ago. So really, really nice.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah, it's awesome, especially when you have that support from pretty much everywhere within the county to be able to do the the job that you need to do on a daily basis. And you know, I think well, when we've kind of had a few podcasts here as of late that have uh tended to focus a little bit more on the leadership side of things. But this one was a little bit different. When I was going through some of the Echo Philly submissions for our conferences, this was one that really stuck out to me that I thought that would be a great concept to bring forward on a little bit larger scale than um maybe just at a conference, and something that I think that we can all probably all relate to in one way or another, especially with the way that that things are changing within the industry.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Definitely. And when when we talk about leader to to just even just get you from from jump, and and Mike, you you and and Blake and I had chatted about this. When we say leader, that that doesn't necessarily mean hey, that you're that base manager. Um that can be where I jokingly say that that salty paramedic who's who's you're that flight paramedic, you've been doing it for 20-some years. Uh I wasn't gonna call anybody out by name, but but if if this is how you identify, sir. Um but but this this can be that FTO, hey, as as leaders, um, that's that that training, that instructor. There's there's a different, there's a whole bunch of different folks who fill this role when we talk about uh about being a leader. Um so it doesn't have to be that formal designation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

And I feel like with the the way that the dynamics are changing in the industry right now, we have so many new people that are coming into this industry, not just new to flight, but relatively newer in their careers. You know, I remember way back when it used to be a you know 10, 12 year waiting list to be able to get on a helicopter somewhere. And that doesn't seem to be the trend anymore. And so we have a lot uh younger staff who are quickly finding themselves in leadership roles, whether that be, you know, just uh on the shift itself, whether that be base leads, whether that be, you know, managers of programs. And so uh it certainly spoke to me hearing, you know, some of the looking through the submission that you had and and really looking forward to having this discussion today. As we get into it, I was wondering if you can kind of talk to us about a leadership challenge maybe that you encountered in your career. And and I think when we talk about uh we've talked a lot about toolboxes before, right? So uh we talk about having a mental health toolbox and when things get stressful to be able to pull from that mental health toolbox or a safety toolbox. So maybe a challenge that you've encountered in your leadership career that you had to pull from your leadership toolbox and why that was so important and how it impacted your career.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

I I think those challenges can they happen to today. Um, because uh I I equate a lot of times in in a couple of different things that that I do, that I think being a leader is is somewhat like being a parent. Um and how many times do our employees, and so it doesn't, again, it goes back. If if if I'm your your mentor, your FTO, your preceptor, the titles are made up, I feel, in EMS. But whatever it is that that you are, when somebody asks you that question, and that part of that leadership challenge is just being able to say, you know what, I really I'm not sure. And and knowing where where do I find this information out. Being able to be uh, and I I cringe saying this word uh because I think it gets it gets a bad wrong rap, but being able to be vulnerable with your people um and just being able to say, hey, you know what, I'm I'm not a hundred percent sure on that. It's gonna take me a minute to find that out, and that's where to use that buzzword, that say do gap, um, and that can be another leadership challenge because every day, like a backpack, and that that's where I say leading while carrying, people are dumping stuff into that backpack uh throughout the day over the course of the days, weeks, and months. And and what is my say due gap that that if Blake says, Hey, I get a question about, you know, w whether it's follow-up for this patient, or we keep having this problem with this piece of equipment. When are you gonna do something about it? Well, maybe I didn't know about that, or daggum it. I I I had reached out to maintenance or I had reached out to our vendor, whatever it is to get this squared away. Let me take care of this. But as that's happening, there's some other issue or something else that that happens. There's a truck out there on the road and and they get broke down and we're worried about the safety of our folks. They've got a patient on board, but how do we get a rendezvous or get mutual aid for for that or any of the other things? And so that for me, just that's so wide open and not per se just one, uh I wish I had one leadership experience to say, hey, I was I was in this meeting, but I think that that wide open generic, knowing how to answer uh your people and having those difficult conversations to say. Uh, because it is difficult to say, I I don't know. Um it is difficult to say, let me follow up with you and and to set a realistic, let me let me get back to you by the end of the day. Um and sometimes that that involves that conversation. Again, people might cringe with this word, that relationship, that if I say, Hey, Mike, I'm I'm gonna get back to you, you know, the end of the day, my end of the day and your end of the day might look different. Your end of the day might be three o'clock, my end of the day is 11.59 tonight, or maybe it's 11 o'clock when I crawl into bed and I I might be working right up until I go to bed. But I've also got to take that personal time. I've got to take time with Mrs. She Heat, I've got to take time with my daughters, I gotta take time with them beautiful grandbabies, and and that that's another difficulty right there as well. Is that enough difficulties? Uh is that enough leadership challenge? That's like the appetizer, the meal before the meal to make you hungry.

SPEAKER_05 13:23

So I think I think you just you summed up like every issue I think that that we all you know think about when when we refer to leadership and and Terrence, I think you dated yourself and you you said you had some grandbabies. But I'm a young grandfather.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

I mean, I'm I'm my hair's letting loose, but I was young. Hey, you at least you have hair, so I you know, I respect survivors, survivors, survivors. Uh you know, since there's no potential employers, probably at 47 years old, blessed to uh have some grandchildren at that at this age and to be able to have fun with them at this age. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:01

Uh you know, Mike, you said when we were talking about people that are new to this industry and new to some of these experiences. I I think we just are encountering a lot of people that are new at life. You know, like like people are very young coming into this industry, and and and I think we'll we'll probably generate more questions than answers, I think, as we continue on this conversation. But we we're finding younger people getting tasked with uh you know, whether voluntold, voluntary, you know, with leadership roles. And and it and and Terrence, you said it doesn't have to be a specific title. You just may be it for the day or the most experienced person in what I have seen are younger people with less uh uh amount of years or whatever of uh of experience, but but what also has come with that is like smaller amounts of life experience, and and I think to do this job you you have to have a a balance of of both. And not to say that you can't, you know. I mean, I I started when I was 23, you know, um, but I didn't know a whole lot, you know. I figured I'd drive an ambulance and I was like, oh that that should be fun, you know. Government benefits, but uh but it's so much more. And and what I have found, and maybe this is us getting older, you know, there's a lot on the younger people and the uh less experienced, you know, and in the cringe words, Terrence, I love it. Vulnerability, I don't know. I I think that this society is just so much different too. We we expect answers and we want the solution like right now, you know. I mean, I can order, you know, soda from you know Amazon and it's at my house in 20 minutes, you know, like there's this instant expectation. And I don't know, sometimes in this job, these these solutions or the leadership part, it takes some time. And I think that's been a a big thing for me to realize over the years of you know, the the big ships turn slow. Maybe that's the other cringe uh uh analogy, but there's no longer so there's so many things that come with these leadership roles, and I think that with public safety aviation, we there's grandfathering in of the senior people. They're like, Man, you've been doing this long enough, you could easily train these next few people. But you come with people, I mean, I'll tell you, I'm not educated, but I've got experience. But then you come, then there's people that have a master's degree, they come out of high school with an associate with their associates, two classes away from their bachelor's, and then 23 years old, they have a master's. I'm impressed. Uh, you know, and and to to take that and and as we build up and and see new leadership coming into this industry, to me, I see that as a huge challenge. And Terrence, what else do you see that are those biggest challenges that that new leaders are facing when they're coming up? Uh and they're handed a whole plate of, hey man, um, you've got great credentials. Um, I think you're gonna be great. Can you fix this?

SPEAKER_01 17:20

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SPEAKER_03 17:49

Well, at first I I think it's a balance of of things. And and so I think there's a difference between smartness or intelligence and and education. Um I say this as as as somebody who coming up through through the ranks, uh, I had an opportunity and a benefit. And that to me, education is something you you have to have an opportunity to have. And to have that opportunity, you have to have time, you have to have money, so you have to have that means and ability. And so uh my associate's degree, my my former father-in-law, taught at a university. He was a believer in education, he paid for me to get my associate's degree. I got a bachelor's degree, so I got a bachelor's degree in emergency medical care from Western Carolina University. Go Cats, I'm contractually obligated to say that as a as a graduate of Western Carolina. So my bachelor's is as a as a paramedic, and then I wanted to do something different. And so uh I paid for this uh a master's degree in public administration from the University of Texas in Arlington. And and so I've had a small school experience, a large school experience. I've I've had a lot of schooling. Um but but I think there's a difference between education and to pick on somebody who the me saying this will make him listen to the podcast. Uh, my son-in-law, and I refer to him as my scumbag son-in-law. I love that boy though, just in fairness. And he knows that. Um and and so I'm a father, I'm a father of daughters, and so so the middle one, it's it's it's hers and mine. We don't have an hour's our cat, I guess. But the the middle one is is mine, and and so uh her husband, he's a farmer. They got a thousand acres on on their farm here in eastern North Carolina, one of the oldest farms in in this county. And uh my my son-in-law, you know, if we were to argue certain things, uh he's not well educated because he has a high school diploma, but I remember when when he and my daughter were dating and they were getting serious, bringing him to the EMS station and showing him, you know, he wanted to see the ambulances. He works on tractors, he works on all kinds of stuff, um, and him having some questions. And I remember that that striker, striker power load system, him looking at that and not he wouldn't disassemble the ambulance, but asking, crawling underneath of the truck, you know, lifting stuff up and asking how exactly it worked. Um, and him, you know, after messing with it for two or three minutes saying, Oh, this is a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, do you guys have problems with this, this, or this? And the first two things we didn't, but the third thing we were starting to have a little bit of a problem with. And and so he's not a medical expert. He's not a whatever. And and so when we talk about that grandfathering in, I think we have to balance a couple of different things. We have to balance it just because somebody is well educated, is this the best suited person for whatever this position is, whatever this job is? And and I think when we talk about the younger workforce, um, our agency, we we uh just um hired an external new uh deputy chief special services, and part of that special services is training health and safety. And and we were talking about revising, revamping our onboarding process and some pieces that we have found that we were missing. And part of this, I I did that job for six months while that that job was vacant. And I jokingly say the kids that are starting today, and they're actually younger than my kids, um, the kids that are starting today, they don't know certain things like, hey, when you show up to work, you're working for 12 or 24 hours, this isn't a hotel, you gotta bring a pillow, you gotta bring a blanket, you gotta bring sheets, you gotta bring food or money to to go get food. Hey, I gotta show you how to wash an ambulance because some of these folks may never have washed a vehicle before. And so it sounds very remedial when we when we talk about this, but do you have the patience to to work with these folks? You know, I don't have the the time and ability. I I don't, y'all don't have to get me on the soapbox about are we truly doing high quality, high fidelity? Are we putting somebody in that in that sim room or are we just sitting around talking about it and checking boxes with our education? And I think that's probably one of the pieces too, that as we get these younger folks in, what can I do to sim them? What am I teaching them? And and to quote one of our former chief pilots, I think we have to keep we have to keep our expectations grounded in reality. You know, hey, let me introduce you to reality, um, and and that is the new reality.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Yeah, I think it's some really interesting concepts that you bring up there because I I wholeheartedly agree with you that there's a difference between that that intelligence and that education piece of it. And I think that there are so many people that have that intelligence from their education, but there are also those fair amount of people that have that intelligence because of those life experiences. And I I classify myself in that life experiences category, right? Like, you know, uh yes, I've worked my way up to the ranks with, you know, in EMS as an EMT, and then um, you know, in in the pit as a nurse and and working my way up to becoming a flight nurse. And I felt like I was kind of at the the peak of my career, if you will, and never really saw myself moving into a management role, but I was still a leader within my group and my core, and I loved having that, you know, people come to me with questions and being able to help in those situations and work through those things. Um, but then moving into my new role, there were all of these things that were suddenly thrown at me that I have never looked at before. And it challenges you to recreate your entire way of thinking about the problems that are in front of you. Because as a as a frontline crew member, I think that you have this almost this tunnel vision, right? Because you don't have to see the back end. But when you step into that leadership role, you now suddenly are focused on both of those at the same time getting cross-vision because you are constantly in that tug of war back and forth to make things work within the confines that you are given from uh from above, but to be a manageable task for those that are are still on the front line. So there I think there's so many challenges that our new leaders are are really facing within their agencies, especially when there's grandfathered. I mean, and in I I often saw this within our ground EMS folks, you see this within the police and fire departments, and we are no different working in public safety aviation, having a lot of those grandfathered people moving into those positions because they've done the job for so long, of course they're gonna be good at this. And I think that that's sometimes the challenge that I think our new leaders aren't necessarily prepared for what's to come. Uh they're not. Yeah. And and then like what what do you do about that? And and and how do we how do we help to prepare those people who are just being grandfathered in with those challenges that they're facing now?

SPEAKER_03 25:08

I I think we have to we have to think about that development. And you know, if we if we steal from from the fire service, and I like to I like to just boldly steal from the fire service, from law enforcement, absolutely from the from the military, and and then compare it to what we do in EMS. And and it's probably been in the last uh 10 years in in my state, and and I know there are other states that I've visited where I I hear that it still happens that an EMT class, or maybe it's Con Ed at your department, we pull the apparatus out and we're we're throwing that projector up on the wall. And to think about that from a fire service standpoint or a law enforcement. Uh a lot of these places, hey, uh you're going through B L E T, um the your state, your state commission has things on how much lumens must be in the classroom, how much seating or how many square feet per per student. And and I think we have to view it as the profession that it is. And I I think part of being a professional is if if I'm in the military and I'm getting promoted to whatever this role is, any branch of the military, they're sending you to a school before you do that job. And and so my view on this is okay, you can say I'm a great paramedic and promote me into a role where I'm, and I'm gonna just make stuff up, the chief financial officer. And I can make some really great linkages that med math is no different than budgeting, but we all know that it is. And it's easy to say, hey, it's just numbers, but it's not. And uh because the my med math and my my routes of administration and my my patient rights are different than whatever the the accounting stuff is, uh, and and how I'm gonna be audited by whoever it is that that is my authority having jurisdiction. And so we have to prepare people for those jobs. And we have to recognize that that's sending people to classes. Classes don't necessarily just mean a conference. Um, you know, there can be any number of things that you can send somebody to to say, hey, how do we formalize this education to make you that that manager or leader in in our industry?

SPEAKER_05 27:29

I love how we're talking about we steal the different things from the fire department, law enforcement, and the military. And then we use them to try to help our profession. And then I'll speak specifically as far as EMS goes. And I'll say that because Terrence, I come from the same type of organization that you're in. I'm a third-party government EMS service. I'm down here in Lee County. I think we actually came up there after one of the hurricanes to kind of to help out at some point. Solid probability, yeah. So I like a lot of the things that that you're saying just resonate. And and I I I had these thoughts whatever day it was the last day that I worked. I think it was a Monday, because I always fight myself on the way into work. And and I started thinking about the leadership, you know, people, um, supervisors, you know, whatever term we want to give them. You know, the military does great on training. You you do the things, and I think there's a big part of I said I was never in the military, so I don't know. And I and if someone can correct me, please absolutely. My wife was, so I can always consult her too. Um as you should in all things, but trust me. Yeah, that's uh that's still rule number one. Like a lot of your past track record and and how you show up day in and day out each time you go into work or you do your job, speaks volumes of the things that you do and and can be a predictor of future behaviors, right? Or how you would do things moving forward. I think that's one piece of the puzzle. There's also parts that where you can take different classes and you do the different things, albeit on your own, and you try to get to that point, right? Um, to where you can show and demonstrate that, like, okay, maybe I wasn't like, and I don't mean like maybe you weren't like just that standout employee, right? Like you you came to work, you did your job and went home, right? And then you're you're doing this for a little bit and you're like, you know what? I I think I kind of want to move up. I I kind of really enjoy this. So you start taking some of those other classes and you do those things to show, hey, I have a valid interest in this. But then there's also some people that just get either handed or you know, they've been around long enough and they take the tests and they do the things and then they get into that position. And then, you know, people camp or they just stay in these positions and they stay there. And is it because it, but like who grades them? Like who holds them accountable like as you move up, right? Because I know that from a line employee, if I don't get my checklist done on time or I didn't mop the floor, or you know, whatever it is, somebody will be more than happy to let me know, right? But then as supervisory roles evolve and as people move up, I feel that sometimes people get really good at taking the test or they figure it out on how to either say the right thing and do the right thing. And then at the time, it's like that dangling carrot in the interview, and people are like, Yeah, we should hire them. Like they're gonna be great for this spot. And they get in that spot within six months, they're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, they're doing okay. But then it just kind of tails off, and then no one ever looks at it again. So, why is it that as people move up or as they get into these spots, how like these challenges and these pressures that come with these leadership roles, like who keeps people accountable in those positions and and and and keep moving forward and moving up? Because the, I mean, in the military, you're constantly striving to get to the next point, and there's more and more leadership and more things put on you. Same thing in the fire service, whether you're the the lieutenant or captain or officer on the the engine, and then maybe that's uh you know, maybe it's the rescue truck, and then you go up into training or whatever. Like there's more and more that comes of that. But I feel like EMS, a lot of times we just how do we miss that mark to where people get into these spots and they just stay there.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

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SPEAKER_03 31:36

Well, I like the way that you said it. I'll call call you out on it for camping. And so it just tells me that you spend a significant amount of time of your free time video gaming for somebody camping out in this in this spot.

SPEAKER_04 31:50

That was a past life. I don't have time for that anymore.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

But same game recognized game, big dog. So so this is what I would say is and this is just going to be very idealistic, right? You have to have a trust and you have to have faith. And if and if I say, hey, what is faith? Faith is the belief in something that you can't see, that you can't prove, that you can't touch. You just have to hope, maybe is another word, uh, or or just accept that it is there. And and so in this case, hey, you the titles are made up. And so if I've got if I've got a base manager and then I've got a regional manager, I have to have a faith in that regional manager saying, What's what's going on with my base manager? What's the what's the problem? Now, that's not to say that I gotta be careful in my words that that not that I'm gonna be a blue falcon and just dime my guy out, but some of that is is do I have an opportunity to be able to communicate this? And what I would say is it doesn't matter what your organization is. Hey, if are you in local government? Are you in are you working for a hospital system or health system? Are you working for uh some some private NGO or some some for-profit, there's a million different ways uh the VFW runs an ambulance service in in in some parts of the world, and I say the world, the United States. If I am not getting, for lack of a better term, that love from my employer, it's a relationship. A relationship has to work for both of us. And if I am not feeling valued or frustrated, uh is is this to to to use a book, is this a season for me to grow, or is this a season for me to do it, do I, do I buy it a little bit of time? Is this just going to be a winter tough season? And and sometimes maybe I get to give my supervisor a a little bit of grace uh about something. I remember one of my employees sitting in in my office, and when I say one of my employees, that this was a a one of our actually our flight paramedics was was in my office, uh, and and chewing chewing me uh, you know, is not really the how it went. He was frustrated, he was airing his frustrations, and so he's a couple of rungs down the ladder, and and I had failed to do something, and I had just looked him in the eye and I just said, you know what, James, you're right in that. I I haven't done that. I'm sorry, my brother died last week. And he was just like horrified, you know, and and having that conversation with him to say, Hey, you know what, man, I'm gonna own that. I haven't done that. I've had a whole lot of stuff going on, you know, and and uh this is my oldest brother who had passed away, the guy who took me to get my driver's license. I have so many amazing stories of growing up and and the things that that he did. Sudden death, not you know, not ideal circumstances. He we knew he was sick, um, but it was a it was a really fast and it was it was not a good death, and we know a good versus not a good death. True. But there was nothing that I could do. It was not the time for me to to take off, and so I just kept plugging along at work as we sometimes do. Let me distract myself with with this work. And so maybe it's maybe it's having that conversation with whatever your supervisor or higher ups are. Hey, and you have to be comfortable in things. Hey man, I want your job one day. Um, because I've met a a number of people at at conferences or in my own agency who say, Hey, I want your job one day. I'm I'm pretty comfortable in my job. And I don't mean comfortable in that good way, like, ah, I'm a kickback. Right. I'm a I'm gonna be good, I'm comfortable in my job that hey, um the the we're successful, but but success, the rent is due every day, and we're making that payment every day. We're not behind, you know, by by 45 or 90 days. Sometimes maybe we do miss a payment. Sometimes we pay pay a little bit more, you know, but you're not gonna hit home runs if you're not getting up there. And so to go back to your question, you know, you're you're in that agency and somebody's camping in that position, and maybe it's having that conversation with them to say, hey, I'd like your job one day. Um, and maybe they're they're able to delegate some things to you. Huge difference between delegation and dumping. Sure. Maybe you're able to enter that mentor-mentee relationship with them. Or maybe you just say, you know what, this was a good place to get me to where I am now, and it's time for me to find another place to challenge me and and for me to be able to continue to grow. And those are hard words to say, and and they're hard words for people to hear too.

SPEAKER_05 36:26

Those are hard words, I think, all around. And I think for for someone to go to your superior and be like, hey, this is what I'm seeing. Like, what's going on? You know, I think that that's obviously a really tough position for people. But I I think where I've seen some things kind of go amiss are like those seasoned people that are camping, it's like the they're riding the time out, you know, until you can retire. And then now we have a lot of the newer people that are up and coming and getting these roles. And but but we haven't prepared them. And I say we because it's an agency thing. Like, I mean, we should wholeheartedly acknowledge that EMS, third party, whatever, hospital-based, whatever, EMS is just so insanely different than any other aspects of public safety out there. Because it like, and I mean, maybe I'm wrong, there's so much unpredictability, right? You know, and I mean, and there's unpredictability in all the public safety aspects, but I think for us is like we always joke that we're the red-headed stepchild, you know, we're the one that's always forgotten. And that's so true, but we we still just continue going on, you know, we still go in, we still do it, we still go to those calls, we still, we still pick up and go forward. And I think that we've gotten to like a point, maybe after all these years, that we just roll with that. But I think we should, as an age, like as a profession as a whole, we should just acknowledge that we are so different in these realms and and not compare the things that other people have. Like, let's grow ourselves and be better. And like, like your pilot said, keeping those expectations at ground level in reality. But I think there's a like you can we can have good expectations that are still ground level and attainable, not make them so that they're unachievable. But I think that if man, if we could just find a way as a profession to just really acknowledge our differences and and we're okay with that. And then maybe hopefully along the way, these people that are up and coming and they develop these true rooted, not only are they well educated, but they get really good experience. And then now they are those right fits for those jobs where they continue moving up the ladder. They don't just get to that middle management or whatever and just be like, man, this is great for the next 10 years, and then I can retire. Like, I don't know. That seems like a waste.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

I mean, it definitely, it definitely is, and that's what I would say is what can I do while that person is camping to to advance myself in the best possible way? Is that a formal education? Uh I I had glossed over it, but part of what paid for for my bachelor's degree uh was the North Carolina Association of Rescue NEMS gives a scholarship. And so I got $500 a semester. Uh once I passed my classes, sent them my report card. Um, and I remember getting my check within 48 hours of, I would email them my my report card, a cut and paste of my report card. 48 hours I was getting my $500 check. Um, and I was poor at the time. And so I needed that that money. And but hey, what are the things that I can do to advance and to be ready for those? You know, the the shameless plug-in commercial before we may maybe shift directions is uh looking to say what it what is the best preparation. In North Carolina, we saw that need. Uh, and so a group of group of my buddies and I, we got together and and we created a uh program. It's called the North Carolina EMS Officer Program, and it's made up of eight classes. Uh we've got a level for FTO, Officer One, which is really our formative. We talk about some leadership stuff. And then Officer Two is broken into the different parts training, uh, logistics, safety, operations, compliance. Um, and so so, hey, you spend two days with two subject matter experts, or at least one subject expert, um, to talk about that that different process with with things. And I think that's where in North Carolina that that has worked well. We've worked with the North Carolina uh Office of EMS, we've worked with the community colleges, we've worked with the different agencies to develop that program, but we also recognize that, hey, I'm I'm gonna give you the plate and I'm gonna I'm gonna put some turkey on your plate, I'm gonna put some gravy on your plate and some mashed potatoes. Um but you know what? Maybe your agency believes in candied yams or collard greens or cream spinach. I don't know what kind of crazy stuff you have at Thanksgiving on the side, but we'll we'll have some deviled eggs for you because it's the South. But it's up to you and your agency to finish that education. But like we'll talk about budgeting. We'll talk about capital budget budgeting and how you have to plan years in advance for things and how those vendor relationships pay dividends. And and you might be a Ferno person or a striker person, but you really have to know both products. You might be a striker person or a Zoll person, but you have to know both products. And so we take a fairly agnostic approach to, you know, I don't know what your Jesus is, uh, I I've got mine out there with some of these products, but we're gonna talk about all of the products out there um for for them. And and so I just go back to uh, hey, it's at some point I've got to prepare myself because if I camp in my position and I get stale or stagnant, I'm letting that person win. I'm not gonna get stale, I'm not gonna get stagnant, I'm gonna stay hungry, I'm gonna stay thirsty, I'm gonna keep grinding. So when that position opens up, or you know what? Maybe it's something somewhere else. Uh, and and I think that's one of the things that, hey, we're frustrated of that poor leadership. What what are you doing to improve things or to improve yourself? Uh and I might be that salty, that FTO, that person who's worked for an agency 10 or 10 or 12 years, and I'm waiting for this, this, so I can level up. Well, if if I'm making myself better or if I'm making the people around me better, somebody's gonna notice that. Um, and and eventually you will get rewarded when you don't do it for the reward. And reward doesn't always mean some sort of extra cash in your pocket, but you'll get that reward.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

But I I think both of you bring up some really good points. But I where where I'm what I'm hearing from this conversation though is that a large portion of this is not the individual's fault, I think, when they are in that camping position. I feel as though probably a lot of people in that situation, especially maybe those that are grandfathered and have not had that formalized training, may be overwhelmed or just generally don't know which direction they're supposed to be going with that particular stuff. And I think that's part of the challenges that we end up putting onto our new leaders, both, you know, primarily on that organizational side of things, because there is no like roadmap per se when you just jump into that position. And I and I I look at it like, okay, so if I if I apply to an agency tomorrow and I happen to land a job as a flight nurse, okay, great. Well, I've got a you know a four to six month game plan of everything I'm supposed to do, all the skills I'm supposed to have, all the things that need to work out for me to be competent in that position. But then if you suddenly move from that into a leadership role, you may have been that great clinician, but that roadmap doesn't always exist for people to find those things or or learn that new task and have a guideline or a roadmap of what they're supposed to be doing. And I think that's the challenge sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

Because there's no career ladder. There's no career progression path, like the fire service would say or law enforcement would say, do these things.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

And that's where I feel like this is this is an industry issue. And and there are there are agencies. out there that are working to fix that or to change that and to help people grow and progress in that, whether that be on the base lead level, all the way up through your management side of things. But it's also that investment of the organization to making sure that those new leaders have that ability to go through that additional training. And I think for the longest time we didn't have that. So I think that's where a lot of the quote unquote camping is coming from, because it's probably that our leaders didn't necessarily know I I I have to believe deep down that we are all in this job, in this profession for the right reasons, that we want to do good by our our patients, that we want to do good by our teammates, we want to do good by ourselves. Maybe that's a, you know, a a false thought here, but that that's what I have to believe the premise of why we're A, doing what we're doing and B advancing through those processes or those job roles, because we still want to maybe have an effect but in a different way. And if we're not giving our new leaders that roadmap, I think that we are certainly probably more overwhelming them rather than helping them through the process. And so I guess you know that kind of takes it into the whole organizational challenges or pressures that are put on some of our new leaders. What do you see as the biggest challenges that are put on them when they step into this new role? And and more so as a generalization.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

I'm I'm you know I'm not looking for specifics but you know if if somebody is a new leader, what are some of those biggest organizational things that they may not be prepared for sponsor Airbus Airbus provides the most efficient helicopter solutions to its customers who serve, protect, save lives, and safely carry passengers in demanding environments. Its civil and military helicopters are flying all over the world, making missions possible.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Visit Airbus.com for more information there's so many it it's hard to it's it's hard to list just one because here's one of the things um you know what in in my journey when when I was a when I was a captain I ran a shift and one of my additional duties as as running my shift was the medical air crew was was my responsibility and shameless plug for a second we were able to bring Corey Pittman out uh before he had passed and and Corey was able to do an FPC class for us and that was uh an amazing time being able to sit in in the classroom and to learn from that leader for for a number of uh of time you know and then then I got promoted to to deputy chief I was the training deputy chief I jokingly say for 20 minutes it was like six months and then the operations deputy chief suddenly retired he got called by by Jesus to go on a mission to South America I'll argue with a lot of people Jesus is not on that list um and and suddenly felt my uh I'm thrown into this position but to take a couple of steps back I I had worked shift work in some form or fashion for 19 and a half years from from the time from the time that I was an 18 year old boy to the time I'm 40 or I'm sorry 37 it's North Carolina math 37 years old I I I I had worked some form or fashion to shift work. And what do you it it really took me about a year to adjust to working to Monday through Friday. And it took me time to adjust to A, it was amazing to sleep in my own bed every night but B, it just took me time to adjust to the different for lack of a better term, those different production timelines of of being that that day walker, that Monday through Friday person and recognizing all these different things uh is this human resources law, uh is this procurement processes because my local government procurement process is going to look different than your local government process. And in the state of North Carolina I'll sit down with two other counties and and three counties have very different procurement processes for purchase orders. One county says you spend a penny we want a PO my county says $1,000 uh my my seventh best friend his county says $2,500. And by the way if it's over $10,000 you got to have three bids from his county uh my county takes a different view of that stuff. And so just learning what what are the rules for all of the different things and I think some of it too is recognizing uh in our job in our profession and and and I've heard HR directors say this that things are a little bit different for us because we live together for 12, 24, 16, 8, whatever your shift is or some of those ultra rural places and and and I speak from that lens of ground and air and some other pieces is it a 48 hour shift is it is it a 96 hour shift in some of those real remote places and when you're living with somebody for 48 24 12 hours some of the conversations that we have are a little bit different than Mrs. Shehee in her real estate you know uh lens very different conversations that we have than than what when than what what other folks might have. So for me I think part of that big step up that hard part that change is there's a whole bunch of things that I don't know. Things like I I talk about this the formal education helped me uh because in my master's degree we were doing some some stuff learning how to do feasibility assessments um and that has paid dividends for me since getting my master's degree hey we have to figure out whether this is feasible for us to do oh I've done this for a grade now I'm just doing this as part of my job now um and and so recognizing some of those different pieces how do I spend the money what am I allowed to do and part of that is you just got to ask those questions hey hey what are the rules with this and and having those relationships with people outside of perhaps our normal organization we we know all that the shift people I joke about it in in our local government there are people in local government I knew their name because their employee number was close to mine and we got hired at the same time but for 20 years of our career I never saw them face to face because they worked in the finance office and I worked in EMS and I did shift I was on an ambulance our paths never crossed but now having that relationship with that person our assistant finance director calling her up hey Sally I get a question about this and Sally is a black and white she's a numbers person. I'm a bit of a talker she is not and she's usually able to answer my question in about 47 seconds. And I'm just like oh oh okay and she's like anything else goodbye. And I'm like thank you much and but but being able to have those relationships so so to answer your question that difficult piece everything is just different. It's a different world uh you're a daywalker now but you still you have a foot in each world because you've got to translate to maybe that chief financial officer why do we spend so much in overtime? Why do we work a 24 hour shift or 12 hour shift instead of a six or eight hour shift? Hey the the how what it looks like with flights with oh hey what about our FAA stuff with time and and how many hours that we have to have off and rest days all of these different pieces ingredients you've got to translate it to somebody else so that they understand so that they can best support you but you got to be able to ask questions.

SPEAKER_05 52:03

So what uh Mike you were saying you know we all hope and anticipate or we ideally feel that we all got into this job for the same reason. Like we want to do this we want to help people we want to do the right thing right and I will always agree with that and I think that that is still true for the people that are showing up and and and clocking in where I wonder and I and and and Terrence Michael I don't know I don't know how dark it would be like so for me I'm gonna use myself as an example because I want to tell myself because maybe there's someone out there that can maybe relate to the the weirdness of things that that make me me 20 years in okay um ground and air EMS 20 years in I have found myself over the years wanting to get into leadership or do things. So I take a couple classes or whatever I'm not formally educated but I I have some experience and I do the other certificate stuff you know but then I either look at one of two things and and my question I think will lead to that like the self-imposed things that I put on myself I either a look at the people that get those roles and I'll let that speak for themselves on you're like huh okay or you look at the the people that get into those roles and you're like they're gonna do phenomenal and then within a year they're just like why the hell did I get into this you know and and so like where's like how do we self-preserve or self-preservation I should say like so how do we as you get into these leadership type roles because to me if I look at that and I see someone that I've like worked side by side for years and they get into that leadership role and then six months two year in they're like should have never done it you know um so like how much of that is is never yeah never not even one letter how do we keep that like momentum I guess going and and are the self-imposed things like is it too high of an expectation? Is it not enough? Like what do we do?

SPEAKER_03 54:15

So let me let me start with your self-imposed for for a second and and I'm gonna answer your question by not really answering it is is so so I'm gonna get deep for 12 seconds since you got dark let me get darker because I don't want to be outdone and and so so the middle the middle daughter and and uh I I think she doesn't hate me over sharing some some of this stuff uh so so my ex-wife her mother passed away uh a couple years ago and it and it was right before right before that my my daughter had that had that first uh first child that that grandbaby that beautiful grandson and so I remember having a conversation with her one day and so growing up with daughters being a medical professional and we would have these big dinners the girls would have their friends over and and I always you know I always enjoyed mess because growing up in a firehouse growing up in an EMS station we're always smack talking and I always enjoyed teasing the girls you know uh ladies as we get older our bodies are going to change and so I I I have had some conversations with with uh with in particular my daughter but the girls that that as a girl dad are probably a little bit normal but abnormal for for that for that boy dad but I remember having a conversation with my daughter one time about um her son was a couple weeks maybe a couple months old and struggle is really the the wrong word because you know my my daughter my bonus daughter I tell you what beautiful mothers I'm so excited every day to to see the to see the the changes that they go through to see their families growing to see all of those things but I remember my daughter saying to me that she thought that motherhood was going to be so easy and so um feel free to edit this name out because I don't want I don't want your podcast to be sued by Kim Kardashian but my my daughter my daughter had had had said you know my daughter just looks up to to to that family for for their for their stuff or those influencers out there. And I remember having the conversation with my daughter and saying that influencer they have a dietitian uh they have a nanny um they they have they have somebody that's cleaning their house and they have a whole support team that is that is doing their makeup that is doing their hair that is dressing them that is taking care of that child uh that is taking care of their house all of these different pieces and things and so I I I would give you Blake who I've never met other than this virtual whatever and I would give to your listener I'm gonna say our listeners like this is my podcast now I would give our listeners the the same the same piece of advice why why are you comparing yourself to somebody else let alone somebody who you don't you don't really know and maybe that maybe that just looks easy. So so say that same advice that I gave my daughter why are you comparing yourself as a mother to this influencer that has this whole team hey it's just you and your husband and and and it's your bonus mom and it and it's and it's me and it's your your mother-in-law and your father-in-law and it's your sister your sisters helping you out with with stuff hey that's that's that looks a little bit different you're you're doing an amazing job you're making this look effortless I didn't know you were struggling thank you for telling me you were struggling you're doing an amazing job I'm proud of you and that's the same thing that I would say to you that's the same thing that I would say to your to to your listeners to our listeners don't don't compare yourself to somebody else because that's not you uh that's that's you know and and for all of the things don't compare yourself to to somebody else it's just unhealthy I'm not a licensed clinical social worker or a mental health person.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Um I'm just an an EMS leader uh who talks some some truths about some stuff and that's that's some of my truth with that I I feel like you're you're hitting really close to home at the moment because I you know I look at for myself that that biggest struggle I I look up to the other leaders that I've had in in my career whether that be you know prior managers when I worked in the hospital whether that be prior you know chief flight nurses or program managers that I've worked for thinking back to my EMS days to the the captains and chiefs that I worked with in the EMS days and those people that I respect and I I I step into a new role and I'm like why am I not that and it's different circumstances you are may hopefully someday you know and and I I get it we're probably our own worst critics right like that's that's part of those those pressures that we put upon ourselves but I I look at it like you know these people seem to have it all together all the time and I'm sitting over here like what did I get myself into you know um I and it I'm still excited about it. I still very much enjoy it and I'm I'm looking forward to learning more aspects of the job but I'm also struggling because it's been 12 plus years since I've been you know on orientation if you will and not had an idea of what I'm supposed to be doing. And and it's hard to not compare yourself to those other great leaders that you've seen in your time and I think that's that's a big struggle because it's like I want to get there. I want to be that but we're also a very type A impatient crowd when we talk about public safety aviation EMS fire police. So having the patience and giving yourself that grace to be like okay you need to not compare yourself to somebody else right now. You need to take it one step at a time for yourself that's that's a struggle I think easier said than done. Yeah well that's a wrap on this week's episode of the Valor Flight Crew podcast. As we close out I'd like to leave you with one final thought leadership isn't measured by a title a rank or the years you've spent in the profession. It's measured by the people you influence the trust you build and the example you set every day whether you're mentoring a new crew member, leading a shift or guiding an entire organization the future of public safety aviation depends on leaders who are willing to keep learning stay humble and invest in those around them. A special thank you to Terrence Sheehe for joining us in sharing his experience and perspective and thank you to all of you for listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:50

If you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe leave us a review and share it with someone who's helping shape the next generation of leaders until next time stay safe keep learning and remember great leadership isn't about having all the answers it's about helping others find theirs thanks to our sponsor Airbus Airbus provides the most efficient helicopter solutions to its customers who serve, protect save lives and safely carry passengers in demanding environments its civil and military helicopters are flying all over the world making missions possible visit airbus.com for more information Spectrum Aeromed every mission starts with the right equipment Spectrum Aeromed designs advanced customizable medical interiors for rotor and fixed wing aircraft helping crews care for patients safely and efficiently in the air discover more at spectrum.aerobed dot com thank you to our sponsor technotonic communicators technotonic communications is a proud provider of the critical airborne communications equipment utilized every day on every method law enforcement, EMS forestry federal and military operators all trust their communications after technotonic visit to learn how technotic to support your mission communications