Leading while carrying: The weight of public safety aviation Part 2 | Ep 73

Welcome back to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, hosted by ECHO and brought to you by Vertical HeliCASTS and Valor Plus.
 
Today’s public safety aviation leaders face challenges unlike any before. Staffing shortages, aging aircraft, limited resources, and a new generation of clinicians stepping into leadership roles earlier than ever have transformed the profession. Clinical excellence alone is no longer enough — the ability to lead, mentor, and develop others has become just as essential as providing exceptional patient care.
 
In this episode, we sit down with Terence Sheehy, operations deputy chief for Dare County EMS, to explore what it truly means to lead while carrying the weight of responsibility. From overcoming self-doubt and resisting the trap of comparison to building the next generation of leaders through mentorship, education, and intentional development, this conversation is filled with practical insights for anyone who influences others — whether you hold a formal leadership position or simply lead by example.
 
Leadership isn’t about having all the answers. It’s about having the courage to keep learning, the humility to ask questions, and the commitment to leave your team stronger than you found it. So buckle in as we explore how today’s leaders can help shape the future of public safety aviation.

Thank you to our sponsors Airbus, Metro Aviation and Precision Aviation Group.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

This week, the Valor Flight Crew Podcast welcomes Terrence Sheehe to discuss the challenges of leadership in public safety aviation.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

I cringe saying this word uh because I think it gets it gets a bad wrong rap, but being able to be vulnerable with your people and just being able to say, hey, you know what? I'm I'm not 100% sure on that. It's gonna take me a minute to find that out, and that's where to use that buzzword, that say due gap. And that can be another leadership challenge because every day, like a backpack, and that that's where I say leading while carrying, people are dumping stuff into that backpack throughout the day over the course of the days, weeks, and months. And what is my say do gap that if Blake says, hey, I get a question about, you know, whether it's follow-up for this patient or we keep having this problem with this piece of equipment, when are you gonna do something about it?

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Welcome back to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, hosted by Echo and brought to you by Vertical Helicast and Valor Plus. Leadership in public safety aviation has never been more challenging. As our industry evolves, today's leaders are being asked to do more with less, all while preparing the next generation to succeed. In this episode, we sit down with Terrence Sheehe, Operations Deputy Chief for Dare County EMS, to discuss leadership beyond the title, covering mentorship, growth, and the lessons every leader can use to build stronger teams and a stronger culture. Thank you to our sponsors, Airbus, Metro Aviation, Precision Aviation Group.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Welcome to the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. Brought to you by Vertical Helicast, produced in partnership with Echo, every coast helicopter operations. The Valor Flight Crew Podcast promotes the personnel and life stafing equipment behind helicopter air ambulance services. Join host, Mike Fidelic, and Flight Pride for in-depth interviews and expert insights with air medical personnel, pilots, communications backwards, and maintenance crew to play critical roles in airborne emergency response.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Thinking back to my EMS days, to the the captains and chiefs that I worked with in the EMS days and those people that I respect. And I I I step into a new role and I'm like, why am I not that? And it's different circumstances. But to the new people you are. So having the patience and giving yourself that grace to be like, okay, you need to not compare yourself to somebody else right now. You need to take it one step at a time for yourself. That's that's a struggle, I think.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

It's easier said than done.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Yeah. I think there's no there there's no issue if I use those people as my my role models. Maybe, maybe some growth benchmarks with with things to say, hey, uh I did this for for years that uh when I was a captain, I would sometimes Terence Wayne was his first and and middle name. I I liked it because it sounded all cowboy ish. I'm not wearing my cowboy hat for the podcast tonight because my way it fits with my headphones. But I would I would sometimes say, well, what would Terrence Wayne do in this in this situation? And I think there's no there's nothing wrong with benchmarking uh ourselves or or looking here's another uh maybe a positive. Let me look for inspiration from these people and and how they might respond to this or what they would do because words matter and and that self-love or self-worth matters as well. And to say, why am I not getting this? I don't know, maybe I maybe I gotta change my verbiage with stuff to say, uh-huh. What what am I getting? Who who can help me get this? Or, oh well, I wonder what somebody else would do in this position. Who's that person that I look up to? Not necessarily that person that that had the job for, you know, before you, um, but who is that person that you'd look up to in the industry? And I think recognizing that you can have these conversations along the way with different industry people, I I remember a recent conversation I had with one of the go-to EKG people, and I had had some questions about some equipment implementation, and he was telling me a story about something that had happened 35 years ago. And and I just remember saying, I never knew this. And so having those conversations with other people along the way.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Yeah, I I I do really like that. And I I I'm starting to feel like this is becoming more of a therapy session than a podcast session. I know, right? Just letting it be. I'm learning so much. I'm learning so much about this. Uh I'm loving it. This is great. But but I also feel like it's very different in our world than I you can't take leadership as that umbrella term and I think apply all of the same concepts to our industry because I feel as though we are a very separate niche. And we kind of talked about some of that before. Um, but we we like to think of ourselves as that that high acuity, high performing, you know, uh high-risk, low volume kind of patient populations that we deal with. And I think that being a leader in that type of industry is oftentimes presents itself with some very different challenges than than maybe we would see um if I was, you know, in in retail or in business or in you know, what have you. And you your 24-7 operations, you know, all the staffing that goes along with it. And so why would you say, or what would be in your opinion, um, how do those challenges differ because of the type of industry that we're in as opposed to leadership as that overarching umbrella?

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Uh because it's you just answered it. It's a 24-7 operation. And I think that's more to it than that, right? Like there's it is uh because I've got to be I I still have to be clinically competent. Uh a statement I might use sometimes use is don't don't confuse my credential with clinical competence because I I haven't innovated a patient in years. Uh but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to be chasing, hey, what what is the new video laryngoscope that we should go to? What are the things that we're gonna do? You're a new paramedic. I'll stand behind you and talk you through this this innovation. I but I think what sets us different from retail, I hate, man, you baited me with this question. Um I hate to say it. I hate to say it because I the stakes are high so much higher, right? I I think it's buzzword uh sounding. You can use this as the sound clip because when seconds matter, leadership must be there. And so so feel free to use that.

SPEAKER_05 8:30

I think we totally need to like I think we just found our other radio person that can do like the edit and like the intro, outro world.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

In a world of EMS with no leadership, when the medic unit won't start and the weather is bad. Who are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? Yeah, I I think it's uh you know, my wife will sometimes, you know, talk with me about this stuff and and she'll say, Well, I know your job is harder because lives matter. And I I tend to, uh maybe it's not a coping mechanism, I tend to kind of filter that out. But I think what does set us aside is if if I make a poor decision, if I make a poor decision or I allow others to make a poor decision, I use the politically correct we have unfavorable outcomes, and unfavorable outcomes look like is this aircraft crash? Unfavorable outcomes look like did did I miss that this esophageal innovation, or not necessarily did I, did my crew, did my people, did, did my poor leadership or the fact that maybe I didn't delegate or I micromanaged or I didn't trust my people? Trust is a two-way street in leadership, by the way, is a quick as a quick rabbit hole. It's not just they have to trust me because I'm the leader, but I have to trust them as well. Um, but but because because I don't have that two-way street, does that pilot feel pressured to take that mission or take that flight? And it's a controlled flight into terrain, or they crash into an unlit tower, or God forbid, any number of those things. And so I think that's what sets us aside from retail, from educational leadership. My best friend works in the community college system, and you know, come Friday afternoon during the summertime, uh, they shut down at I think one or two o'clock in during the summertime, and until Monday morning at 8 a.m., there are not emergencies in the community college system. And and his boss, you know, used a line that he had actually used before when people would get spun up about something, he'd say, Hey man, it's just the community college. No patient is gonna die, or people aren't gonna get hurt out there doing whatever. This is an educational institution. Let's let's bring it down a couple a couple of levels. And so that's what I would say that when we talk about this, um, hey, am I am I am I being that good leader? Because it is a 24-7 operation. It's different. The stakes are much high. When high stakes, it's it's it's a high stakes profession. And failure, failure means bad for somebody.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

Can I be controversial for a second? I would expect nothing but from you. This is good cop and bad cop. So I I you know I I am not a big social media guy. I don't post anything at all everyone.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

Who's this Blake guy that I'm following on? Listen, my wife created it for me. So it's a social media marketing campaign.

SPEAKER_05 11:40

So, but in the times that I am a social media guy when I'm like, well, there's nothing else to do, let me doom scroll into things. So I saw this statement, I should say. I don't even want to call it a quote, but I saw this statement, and it was from a you know, uh, some type of page uh that is you know tries to be inspirational, but uh, you know, talk about like we're doing good things for our profession, right? So the statement that was said was you're not as good as you think you are. And so I I read that and I was like, oh, that's awful humbling. I guess I do kind of suck, you know. I was like, ah, I was like, how do they know me? You know, did they read my chart? You know, like damn. They did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

So and when we're done, I've got to talk with you about your your narratives. Um, you need to learn spelling and grammar, but uh KPIs mean.

SPEAKER_05 12:33

But mostly that statement just I don't know why. Like it it I read it, I absorbed it, I critiqued myself and said, Yeah, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am. But then, you know, like in we know in the EMS profession, right? Aside from fire, law enforcement, whatever, like in the EMS profession, it I I don't know what exact numbers are, but I think we would all agree that there's a large majority of the encounters, patient calls, encounters, however you want to call them, a lot of times some of these interactions aren't as bad as they may seem or how they are initially received, right? And then you get there, maybe it's not as bad or whatever, right? But it doesn't mean that they don't have potential, right? And so and so kind of understanding the role of like the EMS service, right? And like it may be someone else's emergency, it might not be emergent to me. You know, I learned that over the years, and so there's a part of it where, you know, if I call the doctor because I feel sick, you know, and like because I have the sniffles, you know, and I go in and like, oh, why are you here? You know, like allergies, you know, they're like, okay, cool. I went to school for 10 years and you know, I'm doing this, right? You know, obviously not the highlight of their day. But there are cases that come in that are truly critical or the life and death, right? So acknowledging those differences is I go back to that statement and I'm like, I don't know that I I don't know that I 100% agree with that. Like, I'm not as good as I think I am, or we're not, or you are not as good as you think you are. I don't know. I think maybe it's okay to be really good at something, and you can be good at that. And and it may and as I kind of tie that into leadership role, like I think maybe it's okay to acknowledge there's differences. I'm not always gonna get it right. But you know what? I think maybe the people that are showing up and coming in and doing the good work, right? I think you are as good as you think you are. There's always room to learn, and I think there's a difference between confidence and cockiness. There is huge, huge. But you don't hear confidence, you know. But I truly think that, like, I was like, man, that just almost seems like more of a dig than anything. And I kind of get may maybe the intent was to like to be that real motivator, and it's like, you know, you're never gonna be perfect, but along the way you'll achieve greatness. You know, but like I don't know. I think maybe we could acknowledge that. No, I think I am pretty good at some of these things, and that's not being cocky, that's being confident and acknowledging the aspects of this job. And like you said, it it's not always life and death, but there are times that it is, and maybe that's where I am or we are. I don't want to say me as I'm describing myself. I want to say like we are. No, I think we are as good as we think we are. Like, I think we do do that because we do the training, we we have good leadership, um, and I think that we have good accountability. So I kind of think that maybe we are. What's your take on that?

SPEAKER_03 15:34

All right. So I got two, I got two takes on on this, two hot takes. And so one of them, DMS is negatively motivated. And I think let's talk about healthcare for 12 seconds, is negatively motivated. Oh, yeah. Hey, Mike, has anybody ever said to you that was a really difficult innovation? I'm really proud of how amazing that you that you do that, or hey, Blake, that was a really tough patient to get an IV on, and you threw a 16 amazing job now. And and just to prove me wrong, maybe that did happen one time in your combined 1,053-year career. I'm just being dramatic. I'm a father of daughters. But but but may maybe that has happened. But how many times has somebody said to you, Blake, why couldn't you get that IV? Why didn't you do blah, blah, blah? Hey, Mike, how come, how come when you couldn't immediately vocalize the chords, why didn't you practice your salad technique? Or why didn't you just do a buyer? Or why didn't so we're negatively motivated for all of the all of the things. And so, so maybe, maybe that motivational quote is is that. But so I I removed the label, so you have no copyright infringements or anything like this. I know how big big companies out there trying to squeeze which one out of out of out of the yeah, out of the working man out here. And so so we can look at this bottle, and so so I jokingly refer to my best friends, I rank them, and so my fifth best friend, who's the program director of our local community college, and and so his wife, who is a dean at that college, different department, she just bullied me. Let me say what it is. She bullied me into judging a science Olympiad one weekend, and it was a middle school science olympiad. And I'm like, I don't spend a time with these nerdy middle school kids. And and so so so he bullied me, she bullied me into doing this. And and so this is what I remember though, is one of those kids, uh, and and it's kind of one of those, like my dad would say, uh, from the mouth of children, the things that that come and really kind of strike us, right? And and so I remember seeing this group, and they had uh they had this glass on the back of their on the back of their shirt, and and it said, is the glass half full or is it half empty?

SPEAKER_01 17:59

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SPEAKER_03 18:22

And then and so it's got H2O plus I'm not a smart guy. I told you I was well educated, I'm not smart, plus the the chemical equation for the air around us. And and and it it had you know, H2O plus that equation equals a full glass. You have to change your perspective. And and so that's that's what I would say is is do we change our perspective in EMS? We we might be negatively motivated. I think just like in the fire service, that motivation typically is a little bit more duty and honor, and we're bound to the public. And and so so a quote that I like to toss out, a motivational quote from the fire service, is it doesn't matter whatever your title is, is is if you are that company officer, everybody in your first due area is your responsibility. So every man, woman, and child, doesn't matter whether they're a resident, doesn't matter whether they're a citizen, doesn't matter any of that stuff, they are your responsibility. And so are are you worthy of that, worthy of that trust? And so that's what I would kind of toss back and to say, you know, and am I the smartest? I'm not, you know. Uh, but I like to hang out with some smart guys. I've got I've got some really smart friends. I jokingly refer to my network of friends as the best friends. Um, I've got the best friend network that when I have an issue that that I can reach out to, um, am I the best? I don't know. I I think I'm pretty good. Uh I'm never gonna be perfect, but that doesn't mean, and I keep going back to this phrase that I'm not gonna stay hungry. I'm not gonna stay hungry and no matter whatever the book is that I'm reading, the podcast that I'm listening to, when I go to a class, what is the class that I go to at a conference? Or what is the conversation that I have with somebody, whether that's on the vendor floor, whether that's those connections afterwards on LinkedIn, Facebook, hey, did I get somebody's number and do I text them from time to time with follow-on questions? Because I think that starts to open those doors as well. But I think it's your perspective shifts things a lot, just like that perspective of having that self-love, that perspective of all of those different things.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

And I think it's such a good point that you bring up because uh in EMS in general, all we see are the bad things. Day in and day out. All we see are the bad things. And so it's so easy to focus on the bad things that I think it's hard to sometimes change our perspective because all we're seeing is the bad in everything. Uh and then we turn that on to ourselves, which is obviously not the right answer in all of those situations. But you know, uh to to quote one of my coworkers again, I think I said it in one of the other podcasts, but like, you know, the grass is greener where you water it, not where you piss on it. Like correct. You know, and and so if you've been wrong all along, right? Son of a dog. The more you know, Blake. You know, and it's uh it's all about that perspective. And if you come in with that, that negativity towards the job, towards your team, towards leadership, towards all of it, like that's where you're going to live. That's where you're going to sit, that's where you're you're going to and and misery loves company, right? Like, so people gravitate towards that particular perspective. Uh, and I think that's hard to change sometimes. And because we get, uh I don't know, maybe it's sometimes the downtime. Um, maybe it's that you know things aren't quite perfect and we have time to perseverate on it a little bit. I I I don't know what what the situation is, but like we never do that. We never we never bitch about it. Like, no, I mean we're we never none of us, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Let me let me take an un unpopular is is what is the culture of the agency. Sure, sure. And and and and what is the culture that is allowed to to invade that agency. Do I do I convert you to my faith? And so I'm Roman Catholic. I live in the Baptist South. My daughter is the middle one, works at a Baptist church. She's been baptized. I remind her every chance that I get, she's still really Roman Catholic. But do I convert you to my faith? But by by let me let me let me riddle me this, because in cultures around the globe, things like life and death are considered, dare I say, holy moments. This is a new life being welcomed into the world, or we are sending you to the eternal. Doesn't matter what you believe in, whether it's the the the darkness or to to you're you're going across the river. The EMS is being called. I can view this one of two ways. They only call me when things are going wrong. Or I can view this and I can convert you to my faith to say they're calling because they they need you. They have a trust and a belief that in their worst moment, and their worst moment, my definition of worst, are two very different things that you can come and help them during that time of need. During this, again, dare I say, this holy or sacred moment, you're being invited into the house, into the lives of strangers, and your actions or inactions, do you deliver death with a compassionate tone? Do you treat this person with compassion and and or are you just a salty SOB and you treat them like garbage and damage, damage causes damage? So do I convert you to my faith and and convert you? Not necessarily brainwashing, but do I convert you to this? And then as a supervisor, and that can be a field training officer, that can be, hey, I talk about one of our paramedics who retired. She had 30 years with the county. She was a flight paramedic for, I think it was 18 of those years. And when Mary Tonda would walk into the room, and I was, I was operations deputy chief when she retired. Mary Tonda as a flight paramedic, when she would say, and she was a real country, y'all, this is not right. Whoa, hey, what's Mary Tonda picking up on that I've missed? She was, I viewed her as a leader. She FTO'd me when I was going through my paramedic. And so what I would say is when we talk about leaders, what is the culture that you allow to happen? Do you allow those negative people? Or do you say, hey man, that's that's cool that you feel that way? That's not our belief here. And do you make those people to feel unwelcome? Because whether you're the pilot, whether you're the base manager, whether you're the flight nurse or the flight paramedic, it doesn't matter what your role is in the organization, do you allow that person, or do you say, hey man, that's that's that's that that might be how they did business wherever you used to work or wherever you were sounded, that's that's not how we do business at MedFlight. That's not how we do business at at this agency.

SPEAKER_05 25:25

I would like to say that I believe that doing this job and where you work, you should be the believer and follower and adopt people into that faith, right? And because what an honor this job is. And like you said, people are calling you to their homes in the absolute worst times of their life, right? And we know the things that are gonna be the mundane, right? The sniffles, the those things, right? That's just gonna happen. That's healthcare. And I think you hit the nail on the head. And maybe as leaders, as we grow and continue to do things, we can't forget that very uh principle of the honor and the privilege that we have to make that impact on our patients. And it's not just our patients, it's their family, it's the providers that maybe are in that facility that are dealing with this, like you know, very trying call. But I I am just like I believe that like you should be bringing follow that faith, do that, and that should not be lost. And I am just very curious as new leaders are coming up and learning these things, and I myself, like how these the the the traps, right? The pitfalls, the the side things, and and like you said, Terrence, like did you learn about budgeting and stuff when you went to paramedic school? You know, like did you learn about like, you know, hey, you know, this refrigerator system and this lock has to, you know, meet this certain like ANSI requirements. You're like, no, no one teaches you that in paramedic school, right? You know, so the the true foundation of what our job can be, right? Like not every call is life and death. And I think we all know that. But for those calls that truly are life and death, and that's where I say when I think about that statement, that just made me think like, no, I think we are really good at those things. And I think if you adopt that faith and your leadership has that faith, like then your culture and your organization will continue to grow. But I'm curious on the pitfalls that kind of come with those leadership positions because we all start out because we want to do this job and help people. But like, are we asking so much of our leaders to, you know, like, hey, I need you to do these budgets? And then, oh, by the way, uh, you know, this ambulance broke down and then their battery charger isn't working. Oh, by the way, while you're on your way to that call, you're gonna need to go run this horrible call with this crew and help them and relate. And then as soon as you're done with that, you gotta, you know, upload your TPS reports, you know. I don't know. Like, you know, like how like how do you balance? How do we avoid these like traps that are with that come with the leadership role, but still don't forget the very basic I I don't want to call it basic, the very foundation of how and why where we can make the impact with those truly tough calls to like that privilege, that honor to be with life brought in or life leaving. Like, how do you balance that as a leader and and and make yourself be successful so that way when you're successful, your team is successful?

SPEAKER_03 28:44

I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna pivot in a different direction because uh I think it's an important thing to to talk about. That is what is the you time that you're taking. And and and uh I I hear some people say this uh you can't pour, you can't pour from an empty cup. And then my daughter's boss, who uh the Baptist preacher, his greatest goal in life is to convert me. And I'm like, no, Charles, you're invited to my funeral. It will be at the Catholic Church. You can speak even, but I mean it's gonna be it's gonna be that Roman Catholic rite of burial. Yeah. And and and so Charles uses the the statement when I have the conversation with him, even Jesus took naps. And so if I am worn out because I'm constantly doing this, I'm constantly doing that, I'm fighting the budget battle, I'm fighting, hey, we had to run this bad call because I backfilled, and then this is broken down. And and if I'm overextending myself, well, then that just becomes fatigue. And and in healthcare, we know fatigue. Shoot. Healthcare, we know fatigue causes us to make bad decisions. And in aviation, we talk about fatigue to say, hey, did you take your safety net? Hey, what's your what's your duty hours? Hey, pilot, you know, you're about to turn into a pumpkin because you've been on duty for 13 hours and 48 minutes. And by the way, how many, how many days have you been on? Because now it's time for your mandated rest. Right. Which is not dissimilar. Uh, my middle brother is a pilot for Southwest Airlines. Same deal. And, you know, he will, uh, when he is in town, he was in DC, where where my next older brother lives, um, and they went to dinner and and I was part of the text chain, and I was like, well, thanks for thanks for keeping me in the chain for dinner I won't be going to make my phone make noise. Um, but he had used the statement, hey Ted, you know, whatever we do, it needs to be early. I've got a five o'clock showtime tomorrow morning, so I need to be in bed at, you know, whatever time. And so that that's what I would say is how do we not fall into the traps? Here's a trap self-care and taking that self-time, that intentional time.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

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SPEAKER_03 31:47

And so with my daughters with their own families, hey, I knew Father's Day was going to look a little bit different. Um, and so we took that intentional time the day before Father's Day. Got a smoker a couple couple weeks ago. We smoked two racks of ribs, we threw deer backstrap on there, uh, we threw a quarter chicken on there, some uh chicken quarters. Uh we screwed down. Man, I'm moving to North Carolina, man. Yes, sir. Yes, sir, yes, sir. I'm Texas educated with stuff, including my barbecue. So it's like the best of both all the worlds, right there. My goodness. It is the best. It is the best. But taking that intentional time to hang out with them children, to hang out with them grandchildren, uh, to hang out with my to hang out with my wife. You know, she sometimes teases me, uh, how come you don't call me your best friend? That's because you're my wife. That's implied in that. That is a known statement of that. Literally in the Yeah, like that's in the title. But if I'm if I'm working the long days that I work, uh getting home late at night or leaving early in the morning, and some days, some days I do leave to go to work while she's still in bed, and I get home while she's in the shower, you know, and she's about to go to bed, I I gotta take the time with her and we've got to reconnect as as husband and wife. And that just means talking, that means being able to go on vacations and to enjoy new things. Maybe that's a great meal, maybe that's our children. Uh, for her, when she has a tough day at work, I know because she goes to one of the girls' houses and plays with that grandbaby for three or five minutes or gives them a bath. And so to go back to your question, hey, how do we not fall into those traps? I think self-care is is a trap that we begin to say, I don't need this, I don't have time for this. Is it, hey, making sure that I'm I'm eating a squared-a-way meal? I am no bastion of health fitness, uh, of virtue with that stuff. Um, but what I would say is, are are we taking those intentional times? Whether it's, hey, getting out for a walk, spending time with our family, uh, getting that sweat equity in on things, um, and just being able to reset so my mind is clear so that when I when I hit the bricks running again, I'm able to be focused. And that for me, that's a big trap right there.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

And I think that's such a challenge though, especially when you're talking about working in these high-stakes 24-hour operations environments, because even when you're not on call as a leader, you're still on call. And I'm not just talking about somebody that is, you know, a program manager or a chief flight nurse or achievement, right? Exactly. Right? Like that this is still those those FTOs, this is still those base leads, this is still those people that everyone kind of looks up to within your organization, that you're still getting texts and calls. And hey, are you free because I need to run X, Y, or Z by you? And and I think that we do a good job for our frontline staff of promoting self-care. Hey, you haven't had days off in a while. You should probably take some, or schedules are grouped together so that we can maximize the the days off that we have. And and we try to say, no, no more than, you know, four or five, six shifts in a week, right? Try to limit the hours and and provide that ability for them to have that positive work-life balance. But then it's like you step into the the leadership side of things, and it's very hard, I think, sometimes, because you want to be there for your team or for your crews or for your partners and help them if there's a crisis that evolves. And you want to make sure that you're addressing issues in a timely fashion, and you want to make sure that those emails aren't piling up and there the list goes on and on, right? And and so I think that that's where that that's probably where some of those pitfalls are coming from that you're talking about, is that it's hard to step away or turn it off or put that that job aside because even if you're not the manager on call, you're still getting those calls because people rely on you personally and know you personally. So I think that kind of leads into the next part of like, how do you set those boundaries as a leader to not just promote that for your team, but also promote that for yourself?

SPEAKER_03 36:11

I go back to one word, um, that relationship and setting those expectations with with my folks. Uh some of those pieces might be um in in my role, somebody somebody has to cover that on call piece. And sometimes it's a notification, sometimes it's guidance, sometimes it is response. And where I have responded on incidents at two o'clock in the morning, woken up to a phone call, and and I now just keep usually yesterday's uniform gets hung up on the end of the bed, and tomorrow morning it'll go into the laundry. Um, but if I go out in the middle of the night, I'm just wearing that dirty uniform typically and I'm telling all my secrets now. Um but but we won't we won't judge you, I promise. Yeah, yeah. Maybe a little bit. Maybe a little bit. Yeah, we judge, but we don't care. Um we don't judge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but but somebody has to cover that. Somebody has to cover that piece. And I think an another piece of that is having that understanding. Uh, I've had to have some conversations with my family, but it's not it's not terribly different than I missed holidays when I was on shift. I missed birthdays, uh, I missed all different types of things. Usually I'm there now, but that sacrifice just comes in in a little bit different way. And for my wife, uh to tell her you know, business for a second, that was a little bit uh we got we got married. I'd been on the job for I think 15 years when when we started dating, uh 15, 16 years, and she's coming into this public safety. What do you mean? And the k and her the kids, her daughters would call it uh is is Terrence, is this his sleepaway night? Like it was sleepaway camp or something like that. And so having that, having that relationship with your family, having that relationship with your people, that when they call me with something, we go back to that say do gap, uh, hey man, I'm in the middle of dinner with my family. Do I need to talk about this right now, or can I call you back? I gotta remember to call them back. And I might tell them, text me to remind me, and I leave it, I leave it unread so it's still on the top of my phone as that notification, is that reminder? Because sometimes I'll get my employees and they'll text me, hey, it's still important, I st or it's still not important, but I still need to talk with you before you go to bed. Oh yeah, it's been five hours. I forgot about you, my bad. But but I think that's that relationship piece. And and that's part of where I say that the job responsibilities may have shifted a little bit. And and it it is idealistic to say, hey, we're there to help people. My helping just changed from one patient at a time to the 10,000,500 calls for service that we had with our agency last year. Um, my level of help now played a role in all 10,500 calls for service. We're a geography system, not a call volume system versus maybe 300 or 400 calls that I would run as a provider.

SPEAKER_05 39:11

You know, this this conversation is great. And Terrence, I'm just thank you so much for uh answering truthfully, honestly, no holds back, and and I love it. And I hope that our listeners are are really getting a lot of it. Like Mike said, this is maybe more the therapy session both of us or what I think it just highlights like these like I I I've just wanted so much for this profession for for so so many years as I've watched people come and go and and in and out of this world that you know that we live in. I've seen this I I don't even know if like common theme is is the right uh you know terminology, but like there seems to be something that keeps uh us coming back, right? And and we we recently had somebody that retired and they they left the comment as with it it's not just about the calls or the patients, it's about the people that you're working with and the person that's beside you and the partner. And and they said like that was the most meaningful thing throughout this career, right? And so when I think about that, because like not downplaying or negating, you know, the patient care and the stuff, right? Because I think there are ways how we relate to that as work, you know, the mundane, right? Or I shouldn't say like the routine, like the things that are like, you know, those standard calls, right? Aside from the really tough calls, there's work. But when you're you're like we go through some crazy experiences and different things with each other, and that can be with your base lead, it could be with the brand new employee. You know, we we are all regardless, like you said, the the made-up titles, uh I love that. Um like we are all still human beings and we are still seeing, hearing, smelling, like we are all taking in all these encounters and experiences, and then we all handle those, you know, differently, but then we still keep coming back and and we still keep wanting more. And and then the the as you progress and you go through this career, like I said, I've seen people that come and go because they they go into a leadership role and they're like, sucks. I'm out, not doing it, you know. They go back to the road or they're like, yo, I'm gonna go work retail, you know, like totally not for me. Um, but these as you have different roles, right? As you progress, whatever it is that you find happiness and where you're working right now, how do you sustain uh that you keep coming back, but you're still compassionate, but you're still a leader, you know, like you're still that leader. Like I've always wanted to just be like I've had so much help through my career that I only want to be that for other people, what I was so gracious to have throughout my career. I always had someone I could call, someone was always able to talk me off the ledge. I think I've quit my job 150 times, uh probably 50 of that this week. Yeah, you know, uh, but so how as as leaders, like that's a super tough job. I just uh being a new leader and coming in, you have all this responsibility and you want to do the right thing for people. And whatever the title is, how do you maintain that you keep coming back? You're leading by example, but you're still compassionate, but you're still that leader, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:47

You still have that firmness, I guess, or you know, I don't know what the right word is to say, but you know, you're uh I can be compassionate and not compromise. I might have a presentation that talks about that. Let me let me just be philosophical for for a couple of minutes. And and I I genuinely believe that the place that I live and and work, um, and whether it's vacations with my family, um, you know, side hustle has taken me. I have been in uh I think probably the hundred counties in the state of North Carolina, I've set foot in probably 85 of those counties. And as a non-native North Carolinian, my wife is amazed at the number of places I've been in North Carolina. And and so from the mountains to the coast, and we have our funny coastal accent here. Uh, I've spent a number of time in in Texas. Uh I love Texas, I love brisket. My wife tells me every chance that she gets that our grandchildren live in North Carolina, they live in eastern North Carolina, so that's where we'll live. We will not relocate to Texas. Um, we can always visit. We can we can, we can. You know, uh I have seen some beautiful sunrises uh a couple couple of weeks ago, all the politics aside. I was in uh DC one morning, uh, was gonna see some family and saw the the sunrise and and went to the Lincoln Memorial, saw the sunrise, and it was beautiful there. But I'll tell you what, these outer banks sunsets and sunrises, you get to watch the sunrise over the ocean, you get to watch. A sunset over the sound, um, and there is just something special about it. I've seen some on my son-in-law's farm, some beautiful sunrises and sunsets there. I've been some beautiful, amazing places, but I think some of my grounding is two different things of what keeps me doing it every day.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

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SPEAKER_03 45:02

You're gonna screw up. There's no such thing as perfection in our in our business. You're gonna make an error. Part of accountability is not just do I own it, but part of accountability is or what are the changes that I set or change so that when I'm in this situation or if this happens again, that we don't have this same result. And and so that's part of that. Hey, I'm gonna screw up today, but tomorrow is a new day, no matter how bad today is. And and Mike and I were joking about that this earlier before we began recording that, hey man, tomorrow's a fresh day and let's hit tomorrow with the with the bricks and we're gonna hit it running. I think the other part is is the people. Um a quote that I sometimes throw out there. It exists in the officer program that uh that I introduced, and I'm stoked that every instructor has kept it in their version of the presentation. It's a people business. That's my predecessor in the operations deputy chief, George K. Fair III, um, and where he would say, This is a people business, not just the patients that we take care of, but the people that we are with. And I can think of some some times uh, you know, during the holiday season, uh Thanksgiving is really one of my favorite things. Um I just love it's not the high pressure of Christmas with gifts and decorations and all of this stuff. Thanksgiving. I'm a big dude. I love good food, and Thanksgiving is about throwing down some good food and and being able to see your family. And I have a huge Irish Catholic family and just being able to spend the the spend that time with the with the family, and it's a people business though, and so so reminding yourself that it's the the people because I have spent nights either either talking my coworkers through their issues, just being that good friend, or them talking me through issues. Uh, I remember in in some of my darker times in life, that partner being there for me, uh, and and other than you know, after after the passing of my parents, that unconditional love that I feel for my brothers, man, I guess some brothers and sisters that I have worked with that I feel that same unconditional love for. And so that's what I would say is some of that that driver that, hey, you're gonna have those bad days. Sun's gonna rise tomorrow, and uh it's probably gonna be a beautiful sunrise. And if it isn't, let's watch tomorrow's sunset and see if that's be it's cloudy, let's give it two or three days, and and we're gonna have guarantee a beautiful sunrise or sunset. And if you don't do it, then who's gonna do it? Who's who's who's gonna do it? Um do it do it for do it for the people. In North Carolina, in EMS, we talk about Drew Hughes, their their thing, and and and Drew Hughes, if you don't know the case, mistosiphageal innovation, beautiful, beautiful uh boy who who died because of that mistosophageal innovation and passed away. Uh and they call it the do it for Drew campaign, talking about recognizing all of those things. Hey, you got to do it for your partners. Uh so to take take that, you know, and pivot it into our industry, you got to do it for the do it for the people.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yeah, and I think that that's so important at the end of the day, you know, it's so easy to get caught up in the craziness of daily operations. It's so easy to get caught up in, you know, whether you have um clinical issues, personnel issues, and just general operations uh and and planning for the future. It's a lot and it can be very overwhelming at times. But I think at the end of the day, you need to remember your why. And you need to remember for you know who you're doing this for. And that's you know, for your coworkers, for your patients, for your families. And I think that's where the bottom line is. And and hopefully having that reframing of your why can help keep that positive mind frame in there. And I love that you kind of brought all that up. I think it's such an important piece of the puzzle. At the end of the day, what would you say, if we had to kind of wrap things up here? Your one biggest piece of advice that you could stress to new leaders, especially in our industry, that is a lesson maybe you've learned that if you had to do it all over again, you would have done it completely different. If it's one thing that you think truly makes a difference to your crews, to your patients, to your team is in general, what would you say that is that someone could potentially adopt in their practice? And you already said Jesus even took a nap, so that one doesn't count anymore. I'm writing that down. I'm gonna tell my wife that. Every time your wife asks you to do something, you're gonna say amen.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Absolutely. When we're done, when we're done recording, I can tell you some other some other things. And and so I don't know. Uh I do know. And and you know, I'm struck with a with a couple of of different things to stick since we're doing uh when when I do stuff, I I talk about, hey, we're doing that good old-fashioned leadership revival, we're gonna lay hands on you, we're gonna, it doesn't matter whether it's Wednesday night, doesn't matter whether it's Saturday, Saturday morning, we're laying, we're laying hands on you. Um and and so you know, one of the one of the things that I would say is sometimes we might say, Hey, where where am I? What's going on? What am I doing? Uh and since you said that, I'm gonna pivot to give you something else in a second. Uh, but who did Jesus hang out with? Jesus hung out with the sinners. Uh he was hanging out with the tax collector, who in his time um was was considered an unclean person. Uh, you know, Jesus uh would would hang out with Mary Magdalene. Uh she she she was a lady of the night. Um and and so Jesus was with the sinners and the people who most needed that that love. And so so maybe sometimes we need to be in those places that are that are the most amount of love. Let me let me take a let me take a 90-degree turn though, and where you say, hey, what would you do different? Um I maybe I'm a different person. Um uh I've heard other people say this. I don't know there's a lot of things that I would do different because the mistakes that I made, um sometimes that's that school of hard knocks, right? Um there might be some things where I say, I don't know if I would do this again. I probably would do it because I learned a lesson. And and you're gonna learn a lesson the the good way or the the hard way. Um but what I would say is a quote from from I think it's one of the greatest movies of all time. It's the princess bride. It's one of my favorite movies because you want a romance movie, it's the princess bride. You want an action movie, it's the princess bride. You want a comedy, it's the princess bride. And people will say, people will say things sometimes and they'll use this word. Well, you've got to get out there and you've got to network. And I think that people, that word doesn't mean what people think that it means. Because they'll think networking means, let me get this vendor to take me out to dinner, or let me, hey, we we've we've got the exhibit hall, I get my two two free drinks, let me go hang out with my buddies, and I'm going to network. Um, but to me, networking means I've mentioned this in in passing during this. What's your what's your network of best friends? And and uh I've got a buddy who was an EMS director in in an agency here in North Carolina. Uh he's now in Arkansas, and I can do one of two things. I can cut him out of my network, or I can say, huh, he probably Dave probably has some interesting perspectives now that he's back in Arkansas and and where he talks about it actually reminds him of why he got into EMS. And it's to use that Baptist term, kind of reacquired the fire for EMS instead of being in a large metro system where they're just grinding you down. And and so what I would say, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do this different. I would say, hey, what does networking mean to you? And and are you using it in that correct term? Do you have that Rolodex of friends that you can call up and say, hey, I'm thinking about switching software, I'm thinking about switching hardware, I've got this vendor who was saying this to me, or even, hey, EMS is a small world. And when we get into aviation, it's a smaller world. So I've I've got this flight paramedic, I've got this, I've got this mechanic, I've got this pilot, I've got whatever this person is. What do you know? What do you know about this person? And I have made good references for people that maybe didn't leave on the greatest terms with our agency, but that person needed to, to, to go through a season in their life. Um they had made some mistakes and that didn't make them a bad person. They just weren't going to be a fit with our organization anymore. But they were they were showing that they were learning from that. And so I would say, hey, what does networking look like to you? Are you actually networking? Do you have that Rolodex of friends? Because sometimes I'll call, you know, one one of my group of folks and they'll say, Well, you know who to call. I don't know why you're bothering me. Uh that's not really what they say. I just try to make my friends sound like jerks, especially, especially my living best friend. I've got a dead best friend and a living best friend. And and so, so having that network of people that you know who to call to, um, because uh where I talk about it like being a parent, um, hey, I I can't I can't change, I can't fix what my children are going to go through, um, but can I try to make sure that they don't go through it alone? Uh, do they know, hey, I I'm gonna give you advice. And and my my advice is shaped through my lens. I'm gonna argue both sides of the coin with you. And at the day, end of the day, I'm gonna love you no matter what. And and I feel that same with my network of friends, where you know, my best friend will say, that's stupid. Now I don't know why you're doing that, but whatever. Um, and then we move on to talk about whatever the next thing is. Um, and so build that network, develop that network, continue to cultivate that network. And, you know, it's it's fun for me because in that network, when I get together with my best friend, his kids call me uncle, and you know, they call my wife auntie, and and you know, we have gone to his house for Thanksgiving or or Friendsgiving, I guess. Um, and we have gone on vacation with my best friend with some stuff. And that that to me is that networking that I don't just get the benefit of John, I get Christina, I get his beautiful children with stuff. So, hey, what are you networking? Are you really networking? Are you socializing?

SPEAKER_05 55:31

Wow. Man, that's uh there's so many things that like when when I'm just hearing you say that one, I just from this conversation hearing you speak, uh Terrence, I can just appreciate how much of a well-respected leader uh you are uh within your agency. For you to talk about you know giving well wishes to people that left maybe on not good terms and just acknowledging that they're human. I mean, that's huge. I think there's so many people that would would never even look at that perspective about that. And I and and Terrence, I think having you on to have this perspective in this conversation when we talk about sustaining leadership and for the long haul I think I've learned so much today, and I think there's so many things that that I can take back uh just myself to to know that I don't have to wear a different color shirt, I don't have to have a different title. And I think that goes for any of us, you know, whether you're pilot, mechanic, you know, what you know, lead of you know the agency, whatever. Like there's so many ways that we can make those impacts. And and I think my biggest uh takeaway, I think, from from your advice is you know, we we're all in this together. It's a people business, and just like the patients, it's each of us. Like we're all gonna be there to make that difference. And and and maybe if we understand that human aspect of it, I don't know, maybe that's how we really keep that leadership sustainable and ongoing.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

You've got to give people grace, you gotta show them love. There's a difference between love and lust, but you gotta you gotta show them love, you gotta give them grace and just recognize there's no such thing as a perfect person.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Yeah, I love that. I feel like we always expect perfection in ourselves. Um we're we're easy to uh allow that to not be the case with others, but we expect perfection in ourselves. And we need to give a little grace sometimes and recognize that everybody is just human at the end of the day. And I think if we keep that at the core of what we're doing and why we're doing it, I think that that can take us a lot further, uh, especially on the leadership side of you know, never forgetting where you came from.

SPEAKER_03 57:44

Chase excellence. If you're chasing perfection, you're never gonna reach it. But but if you chase excellence, excellence allows you to balance sustainability.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

Love it. Absolutely love it. Terrence, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh I have absolutely enjoyed this uh again therapy session very much. Uh just um send me the bill later. It's $3.99.

SPEAKER_03 58:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's $3.99 a minute. Uh $20 the first amendment. But but no, what I what I would say as you as you close out is to me, this is this is a discussion uh where I where I include you now in the in the best friend club. Um, but this is a discussion and and being able to have the conversations, whether it's challenging precepts, sharing thoughts, uh a good leader, uh, and I would both uh view both of you as as leaders in the field as well. Hey, good leaders learn from each other. Um good leaders build each other up. They don't tear each other down. Uh, and that's part of that spreading that that good culture. So where you guys say, hey, I've had a good therapy session, hey, I learned a couple of things. Uh I I learned just as much with with y'all on this episode. So I appreciate y'all taking time out of your busy lives to spend with me.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Yeah, we're grateful for for you joining us. Awesome. Thank you so much, Terrence. It's been great. Uh, and I I know that uh our guests are are will certainly have plenty more questions about uh leadership, and uh hopefully we'll get to see you at the Echo Conference in Philadelphia. I hope so. Uh uh if you don't sit in the audience for my presentation, I mean they're gonna be missing out, I guarantee that for sure.

SPEAKER_03 59:23

But I think so. I don't know who my competition is in that time slot, but you know what are you gonna learn from Tim Phalan? You know, that guy just has books.

SPEAKER_02 59:35

Oh man, well, uh it's uh it would be great to meet you in person. Uh hope everybody uh enjoyed the conversation today. Thank you again. It's been great. Um and once you're all caught up on the Valor Flight Crew podcast, make sure you guys head on over to the verticalhellcast.com platform where you can check out the Hanger Z podcast, helicopter podcast, vertical MRO podcast. Thank you again, Terrence, for joining us. We really appreciate it. And also thank you to our listeners out there for your continued support of the Vertical Hellcast platform and the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. We'll see you next time. Let's a wrap on this week's episode of the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. As we close out, I'd like to leave you with one final thought. Leadership isn't measured by a title, a rank, or the years you've spent in the profession. It's measured by the people you influence, the trust you build, and the example you set every day. Whether you're mentoring a new crew member, leading a shift, or guiding an entire organization. The future of public safety aviation depends on leaders who are willing to keep learning, stay humble, and invest in those around them. A special thank you to Terrence Sheehe for joining us in sharing his experience and perspective. And thank you to all of you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, and share it with someone who's helping shape the next generation of leaders. Until next time, stay safe, keep learning. And remember, great leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about helping others find theirs.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

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SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

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