Wheel Chat: Episode 2 – Inside the World of Mobility & Postural Care with Anthony

Join host Justin Boulos and co-host Anthony Mitchell, co-founder of Independence Mobility, for an engaging conversation about 20 years of innovation in the assistive technology industry. Discover how Anthony combines his passion for wheelchair seating and postural management with running a family business alongside his wife, Chloe.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

• How Independence Mobility serves clients with advanced mobility aids and seating solutions.
• Insights into balancing professional and family life in a fast-paced industry.
• Tips for managing stress and staying motivated in challenging roles.
• Unique stories from Anthony’s work, including his family's other venture providing medical props for film sets.

Whether you’re a professional in assistive technology, curious about mobility solutions, or simply looking for inspiration, this episode delivers personal and professional insights you won’t want to miss.

00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions

00:43 Getting to Know Anthony

01:05 The Story of Independence Mobility

02:44 Working with Family

05:23 Props for Film Sets

07:56 Maintaining Work-Life Balance

11:42 Challenges and Coping Mechanisms

14:09 Health and Wellness Routines

16:09 Cold Water Therapy and Meditation

17:13 Vipassana: A 10-Day Silent Retreat

19:21 Wim Hof and ADHD

19:42 Personal Life and Family

20:00 Professional Journey as a Seating Expert

21:25 The Role of OTs and ATPs

24:15 Gaps in Knowledge and Continuous Learning

30:33 Future Topics and Debates

32:34 Conclusion and Call to Action

Email us :
We’d love to hear from you. If you have any questions about this podcast, please email us at wheelchatpod@gmail.com

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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of Anthony and Justin.

Chapters

• 0:43 Getting to Know Anthony
• 1:05 The Story of Independence Mobility
• 2:44 Working with Family
• 5:23 Props for Film Sets
• 7:56 Maintaining Work-Life Balance
• 11:42 Challenges and Coping Mechanisms
• 14:09 Health and Wellness Routines
• 16:09 Cold Water Therapy and Meditation
• 17:13 Vipassana: A 10-Day Silent Retreat
• 19:21 Wim Hof and ADHD
• 20:00 Professional Journey as a Seating Expert
• 21:25 The Role of OTs and ATPs
• 24:15 Gaps in Knowledge and Continuous Learning
• 30:33 Future Topics and Debates
• 32:34 Conclusion and Call to Action

Transcript

Episode 2

Justin: Welcome everybody to episode two of Wheel Chat. I am your main host today, Justin Boulos, OT and assistive technology professional. 

Joined with ... 

Anthony: Loud mouth Anton Mitchell or Anthony Mitchell is my professional name.

Justin: Yeah. It was a hard one to get used to because you'd written Anthony, but you say Ant-ony.

Anthony: Yeah. I've always been known as Ant. Well, I am Ant. Yes. Correct. My name is spelled Anthony. And if I was getting into trouble as a child, it would have been Anthony. But other than that, it's always been Anthony. 

Justin: Anthony, but then Anton for short. 

Anthony: Anyone who knows me says Anton, yeah.

Justin: My dad's name's Anthony, and so it's going to be hard to call you Anthony.

Anthony: I hope you, I'm going to bring you, I'm going to rein you in. 

Justin: Rein me in. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: So we've got Anthony. And mate, today's podcast is more just getting to know you. So last episode people got to know me and what I do for a living. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: Let's go pass it on to you, so, 

Anthony: Ok. 

Justin: 'Who's your Daddy', and what does he do? Who are you?

What do you do? What's Independence Mobility? 

Anthony: Yeah

Justin: Talk to me. 

Anthony: Okay, I'm gonna talk to you!

Justin: What do you do for a living? 

Anthony: Well I'm the owner, a co founder of Independence Mobility and we provide wheelchairs of all different types, so manual and power. And then we also, a huge part of the business is providing static seating.

So in home seating like riser recliners, care chairs, tilt-in-space space and everything in between. And then we have a moving and handling department as well. So we provide, hoists, slings, bathing chairs, et cetera. So pretty much your one stop solution for all mobility requirements. God, this sounds like a real advert and it's genuinely not meant to be in that way.

So yeah, so we were founded in 2004. So it was actually our 20th year anniversary as a business. And it's my 20th wedding anniversary this year as well. So yeah, it's kind of just nice flows. 

Justin: Yeah

Anthony: So my wife and I, also Chloe, big shout out to Chloe. She also started the business with me, which is really lovely.

And, yeah, similar to many family businesses we work together, live together, and we've been able to create along with the most amazing team, Independence Mobility. So I'm really lucky. I'm really fortunate.

But me as a person, yeah, apart from obviously running a business, my day to day, I'll always try and get out three days a week and still do assessments.

I never really want to lose that. I love it. So that will be, as I've just said, mostly seating. I'm very passionate towards postural management, so that's my personal sort of passion. 

Justin: Yeah.

Anthony: But that can be incorporated in all different types of seating as I've just said. 

Justin: That's awesome. So you do mostly, so you specifically you mostly do the seating. You've had your business for 20 years. I want to go back to you and Chloe because I think that's so cute. 

Anthony: Okay

Justin: How ... 20 years of working with your wife? Is it, do you recommend it? 

Anthony: Yeah. Wow. Yes. 

Justin: When it was small, when it was, you were grinding, you're not sure if it's going to work... do you guys have this like adventurous spirit together or you like dragging her into it or how does it go down? 

Anthony: No far from it. We started the business together. We both had a passion for, at that time it was mobility scooters, but I suppose it was my vision and Chloe's, I mean, I am probably not the most organised person in the world. Let's just say that. I've got better over the years, but it's not a natural ability. It's something I have to work on and Chloe is completely the opposite.

She's the most efficient person I've ever met. So, together as a team that worked really well in terms of from a commercial point of view. Clearly I can chat. It's maybe not of interest to most people, but it worked so far and together, yeah, we just evolved. And, but we both have inherently, and I think that's really important. Anyone obviously who's listening will probably agree is, when you're in a marriage if your goals are the same, if you have the same outlook on life then I guess that's half the battle. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Because if you're not, then you’re kind of probably going to be swimming against the tide a little bit. Both of you. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: And that's not a bad thing.

It's just, maybe not for us. We both like helping people. It's where we're at. 

Justin: That's nice. And so it felt like it was both your thing. But did it feel like she was drawing onto your thing? Cause I think about if, if Emma and I was to go into business, like it would be ... 

Wheelchair's is my thing and I wonder if she would be a bit more like 'oh it's fine because it's your thing', but the passion isn't there for her. Like was it your sort of passion area and she was tagging on to your dreams? Or is it both your dreams that you went in together?

Anthony: Yeah, you know that's a really good question. I think that we both, I think I certainly had a passion for the product and Chloe, I wouldn't say she didn't, but she had a passion to help me. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: I think that's probably what it was at that moment. But over the years that's evolved and Chloe, yeah look, I wouldn't be where I am, anywhere near where I am without that. So I would say and maybe, I apologise because the men are going to be like, 'Oh, you're so ****', but we can't do two things at once. 

Justin: Yeah.

Anthony: It's a problem for us, right? It certainly is for me. Women can do like 10 things at a time.

Justin: Oh, Emma knows this all too well. Like if I'm doing something, it's just like tunnel vision. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: And if she's talking to me, it'd be like nothing else is known. And she gets very frustrated with my lack of ability to multitask. 

Anthony: So we work well with lists, right? So Chloe would give me a list every day and here we are 20 years later! So yeah, we're doing all right. 

Justin: She started a new area. So I was at your warehouse yesterday and she started a new area of the business, which I think is so interesting. It's one that I'd love to even get into myself in Australia, but you guys do props for film sets. 

Anthony: Yeah. And it's actually 13, 14 years old now. So yeah, we've been doing it a long time, but yeah 

Chloe took control of that side of the business and she and I think that's what works really nice. We've got our both sort of sides of the business, although both work in the collectively the business together. 

Justin: Just for context when I say props, it means like medical props. 

So there was like, Em and I were walking through it. It was so much fun. You had these stretchers and these outfits and all these like gas masks and IV machines. It just looked like if you wanted to build a hospital you could. And they were functioning props as well.

And then even to a point where you even have like bodies. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: And you had these Madame Tussauds little like wax, I don't know what they're, silicon? 

Anthony: Prosthetics. 

Justin: Prosthetics. We had an arm that was like all gooey and it had it had hairs on it. And I was chasing around with Emma with it.

Anthony: Oh, you were loving it. You were actually loving it. You wanted to take it home. In 

fact, I need to check your case. But no, look, yeah that's just a really fun business to be in. It's, it's something that we're really passionate about and we're, you know we're filming in lots of films and soaps and everything.

So yeah, no, that's cool. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: So yeah, in answer to your question, both of us working together has been hard. Let's not lie about it. It's hard. You're in a relationship, you're coming home, you're discussing the same things, you're working. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Of course, but we've got kids. We've got everything to take our minds off it.

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: So yeah, through the years and we've learned to manage that and we're doing really well, yeah.

Justin: I say, I ask that question because I know it would be, I'd imagine for most people it would be hard. But I ask that question in safety because I've been to your home. It's a beautiful home. You've got a dog. You've got kids who, all of you guys adore each other. I can hear about your holidays you got going. It sounds like you guys are, it's not all just about work here. Like even just hanging out with you guys last night, your father in law was over.

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: I went to your brother in law's place, restaurant last night. It seems like you guys have still, very family orientated and you're even going backpacking. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: Which is like, I'm like manifesting your lives for Emma and I when we get kids. I want to go backpacking with our kids. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: It's to Thailand you're going to? 

Anthony: Yeah, we're going to Thailand. So it's a really favorite place of ours, but yeah and we're gonna have a great time. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Yeah maybe, being the age I am, backpacking's now seeming maybe, was it a good choice?! But no, joking aside, I'm really looking forward to it. We're going to have a laugh. My boys are old enough now, far old enough, 17 and 14. So yeah, they're lads in their own right. And, they'll lead us. So no, I think, yeah listen I love family. That's really important to me.

And it sounds really corny but my work family, I feel really strongly towards them as well. Like, we're a really lovely team who we work with and you know, like everyone who's listening again and watching, I think it's really important that we love what we do. 

You're probably spending 80 % of your life working until your retirement age. So you've got to be happy in what you're doing and you're going to like the people you're working with. So that's a culture that we try, that we have tried to build, but I think it has to come from the top.

And if you genuinely mean it, if you live your life that way, then hopefully that does get passed down. And it's obviously, hopefully, been obvious to you to come but it's been lovely having you. 

Justin: Absolutely. It's been lovely. And I definitely feel like there's a big family love when I was at your place of work. How do you get people to love what they do? Cause my answer for that has always been, be good at what you do and once you're good at what you do, then you will love what you do. 

Is that, like how, what's your method to getting everyone, everyone's so chirpy and lovely because it's hard, right? I know what it's like to be on an equipment supplier side. There's urgency.

There's things going wrong. There's parts not ordered correctly. There's very difficult clients.

Anthony: I don't know what you're talking about... 

Justin: Yeah, there are entitled clients. They are beautiful clients. They are, there's a whole range. So how do you keep people, because looking at your staff there was heaps of people that have been there for 10 years.

You've got really good staff. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: How do you do that in such a emotional, difficult work place? 

Anthony: Good question. I think the thing I feel is culture is really important. So having the ethos of the business at heart, everyone understanding why we're there, why we come into work every day is really, really important. So every morning we have a morning meeting as a collective team. 

Justin: Yeah, toolbox talk. 

Anthony: Yeah, 15 minutes. But that gives everyone an opportunity to, yes, do the obvious things of "how did we get on yesterday", "how did we get on today", "what's on"? ...blah blah blah. That's the thing. But then we have a, we'll discuss how we're feeling or we might talk about a topic. We're all, we try and have a charity, we support a charity every year. So again, I think having a focus on others. 

Justin: Yep. 

Anthony: Takes it off you. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: And I think that's important in life, right? 

Justin: Yeah.

Anthony: Like if you, and I think we're so, so lucky I say this.

I've got loads of friends and they'll be like, what do you do? And they're all, by the time we finish chatting, they're like, ah, I really love what you do. Like I love the sound of that. Because with no disrespect, we've got accountants, we've got lawyers, we've got doctors, we've got all different professionals or, and then, lots of other people do amazing cool stuff, but they don't necessarily always help

an individual. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: And I think we're really lucky that a lot of the things we do, we're helping an actual person. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: And you can see the result of that. 

Justin: Yeah. And I think that's the most satisfying part. Like we all contribute to society. It doesn't matter what you do, whether you, whatever job you do has a contribution, contributes to society.

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: But I do think that we get a bit spoiled in seeing the direct benefits for an individual. It's like when you donate to charity. If you donate to Oxfam, it's good. And you are contributing to a broader, helping a goal. But when you give, a box of groceries to a single mom who can't afford, when you do that, there's something that it feels really good.

It might've been a hundred dollars here and a hundred dollars there, but the feeling of that one to one interaction is, I think, the fact that you guys focus on that is what is a good way to keep it. 

Anthony: Yeah. And I think that is, you know when you asked me the question, I think that is what, what keeps everyone sort of level headed. Everyone's in it because yes, of course there's tough days. Everybody has rubbish days. Everyone has like bad hours, bad assessments. All the different things that go in our daily life and it's going to happen, but I think by focusing on the greater good, the greater goal, it's obviously doesn't help every time but in the main it keeps us all pretty much sailing the same way.

Justin: Can I ask you a question? We all have these days where you feel like you're going to tap out and you're like, "Stuff this job, I'm not doing it anymore". 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: What are your like breaking point? Is there days, is there things that happen? I can tell you my ones. But are there things that happen where you're like, what am I even doing here?

Like, I'm done with this. I'm going to try, I'm going to try another avenue. I'm done with this industry. 

Anthony: Yeah. It's often me actually, the battle is me. I often find personally, it's like "oh my God", like people talk about imposter syndrome. I'm not sure if I really like the term all the time, but I get it.

Because I think that there's always challenges. So for me, it's "Oh my God, I've got 10 people who need answers. I'm completely busy on my own workload. How am I going to do that?! How am I going to spin plates?!" And so we all feel the stress and we all feel the strain. And again, I think that yeah, it is so, so, tough to keep that all.

And who needs to lie all the time? I think we do keep that professional face, that sort of mask. Yeah, everything's good. But if we're really truthful, yeah, I do struggle. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: I do struggle with things. 

Justin: You struggle when it all comes a bit overwhelming when there's multiple, it's the spinning plates that get you.

 So when it is you've gotta, you've gotta get back to this quote on this, you've gotta do a, you get back to the tech about how you, how you want this thing mounted and this custom job. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: And this client's not happy with their cushion. And you're like, oh maybe I can go out and do that.

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: And they live three hours away and there's so many spinning plates. 

Anthony: Yeah, and I really want to talk about that on the podcast. I want to dig deep. I want, I want to drill into us as well and help others out there because if two of us from completely different sides of the pond have got the same issues, then pretty much everyone's getting the same issues.

Justin: Probably the same issues and we could probably work out some good solutions. 

Anthony: I think so. I think we need to work that out. I need help. But no, I think you know the point, one day you feel horrendous, and then the next day it only takes... 

I mean ... I mean I guess anyone it helps, but when you go out and you just have a great handover, you help that little kid that you've that's not had it or you help that elderly person, or you help that person who's got a spinal injury, and all the different scenarios and you think 'whoa', suddenly it's like all these problems that you are superficial in the grand scheme of things.

Justin: Yeah.

Anthony: And then all of a sudden somebody's life's just changed in front of your eyes, or improved that person's life. And it's like 'hang on', right okay, let's get a bit of perspective. 

Justin: Yeah, that's good. And they're all helpful things. Those things are also, I guess external right? Whether the appointment goes well or not, the client was happy with the job but you can't, you don't have a lot of control over that.

What are things, like, when you get home, cause I see that you're getting to know you're a bit into health and wellness. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: What are things like, when you get home, what helps you like de-stress the day, wash the day away? 

Anthony: Okay, good question because I used to work out in the evening, but that doesn't work for me anymore in terms of lifestyle.

So I get up at five, silly o'clock in the morning and go and do, go and do a workout. 

Justin: In the UK. 

Anthony: Yeah, yeah. 

It's like, it's got to be for me, for my mental health as I'm 45 now. So I think that it's really important that I take that seriously. 

Justin: And you find that like getting those energies out of the day, get your zoomies out in the 

morning.

Anthony: 100 % I need that endorphins, I need that kick straight away. Yeah, cause I'm full time on it. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: As I'm sure pretty much loads of people are but that's my, that's what I'm searching for. So that keeps me going. And then I'm bang in to the day. When I come home at night, which again, anyone whose listening, crikey, I could be home at 7, 8, 9 because I'm doing an appointment in Birmingham, which is like geographically, three hours away, three and a half hours away. And, you're coming back. And then the kids, you know everybody, life, you know everyone, you come in and people demand your time. Quite right,

rightly too. 

Justin: Yep. 

Anthony: They shouldn't apologise,I'm not making excuses. The kids need you. They've not done it, Chloe's not, you know I've not been around to help with this, that and the other. She's got her own stuff to go and do. She's probably left work early to collect the kids from, now it's her turn to get out.

So there's so much going on, I am probably somebody who would see out the rest of the day until about half nine and then just completely conk. That's me. 

Justin: Is it more that you, like if you had a big day, you don't really have the opportunity to wash the day away, so you've got to prevent it by having a good session in the morning.

Anthony: Yeah. And do some meditation or breathing, breath work, which is something I'm just starting to take up. That's not something I'm even professing to know a lot about but it's something that I think is, there's a lot in it for sure. Like I'm really into doing that cold water therapy stuff. 

Justin: Yeah, yeah I saw the little cold plunge thing at the back. How are you going with the breathing stuff? I did, oh, the meditation stuff sorry. So I did meditation myself. I'm probably like you mate, terrible at meditating. Probably everyone listening to this is terrible at meditating, but I actually did it for, I had the Headspace app. 

Anthony: Okay. 

Justin: And I did it every day, 365 days. I got the screenshot to say 365 day streak. 

Anthony: All right. 

Justin: And by the end of it

Anthony: That's pretty cool. 

Justin: And by the end of it, I was like meditation's not for me. I still couldn't meditate. I was like-

Anthony: I've never been able to do it. 

Justin: I was like, I can't meditate. I'm not good at it. And then I'm like, if I could do it every day for a year and I still think it's not for me then at least I can say I did it.

Anthony: Well you did give it a go, I mean that's impressive. I'm like, literally if it's not working after a week, I'm onto the next thing. 

Justin: No, I was, I knew, because I knew it's just like a skill. Every, every app would say, it's a skill you've got to learn and you can't not meditate correctly. You just got to, it's a practice.

It's not about, you can't do it right. And I'm like, okay, cool, But it just, I really struggled. Actually, what helped me was, I did a, a 10 day, sorry I know I'm interviewing you, but I feel like I want to, let's get back to me now. I did a, if people are looking to meditate or they want to try something different, what actually helped me was the best meditation I ever did was, I did a thing called Vipassana, which is 10 day silent retreat.

10 day, no eye contact, no speaking, no writing, no stretching, no jogging, no journaling, no movie watching. 

Anthony: And how was it? 

Justin: Silent. Silent. Yeah, it was really good. And it was like, and yeah they get you up at four in the morning to get started. 

Anthony: There's no way he stayed silent for 10 days. 

Justin: Ask Emma. We didn't know each other, did we? Did we babe? Sorry. We didn't know each other then, but it was, yes, we did? Did we? No? Okay. 

Anthony: Emma for all the listeners is just behind the camera. 

Justin: Emma is my beautiful wife who's supporting us right now. No, I did it for 10 days. And like I said, they get you up at four in the morning to get started.

Anthony: Yeah. My, my friend who lives in Portugal, he did it. He's told me all about it. 

Justin: The best thing ever? 

Anthony: Oh, he said he loved it, but he doesn't believe I could do it. 

Justin: No, you can do it man. If I can do it, you can do it. 

Anthony: He's like "I've never heard you be silent for more than five minutes". 

Justin: Mate, I am the case study example of someone who couldn't do a ten day silent retreat.

But they did teach you a practice of meditating, which is, I found really really helpful. And I can do it, I do it when I'm waiting in lines, if I'm trying to be patient. 

Anthony: Well that's amazing that that's helped, like you've been able to take that. 

Justin: Yeah.

Anthony: I mean meditation is obviously across loads of states isn't it?

Like you can have a state of mind. You don't have to necessarily think what the traditional meditation of sitting there, and yeah that doesn't, if that works for you, amazing. But my interpretation, you can focus on different things- sound, noise, walking- that you can meditate on all different levels.

It doesn't have to be, that's it. 

Justin: That's why, the reason why I mentioned it is because you said you couldn't. That's why the good thing about this meditation, it's like a, there's a few, it's 10 days, you build on the meditation but the first one is you just think about the breath coming like under between your lip and your nostril. And you're like, and you feel like the cold air and the warm air. And it gives you something to focus on. 

Anthony: Nice. 

Justin: And for guys like you and I, who need to focus on something, who struggle to let go and all that stuff, it's a good way to get you into rhythm and then you go like that and then you do like your body's like, day five if it works out from there but day one is just literally the whole day you just-

Anthony: Love it. Right, so basically what we'll need to do is do some meditation on some of the podcasts. 

Justin: We can do some meditation after it. 

Anthony: Alright okay!

Justin: Do some Wim Hof. I know you're into the Wim Hof . 

Anthony: I love Wim Hof. Yeah, I've been doing, I did that years and years ago and you know, again, go in and out. Very ADHD, which is something I do suffer with, but umm... 

Justin: Thrive with. 

Anthony: Thrive with. Magic power. Superpower.

Justin: I would never change it. 

Anthony: Yeah, no, it's all good. I'm very comfortable with it. So yeah, it's all good. 

Justin: That's cool. Just getting back to, so that's more about your personal life. You seem like you're very healthy. You've got a very nuclear family. I'm sure everyone has problems, but from what I see, it's like such a beautiful home with his little dog.

Where's the dog? 

Anthony: We've done the job, right? 

Justin: He's having a nap. The cutest dog. Maybe he'll come in a bit later. 

Anthony: We'll get Hunts around. 

Justin: You're keeping fit. All that stuff is really good. Going back to your professional life. So you're a seating expert. I'll call you an expert. 

Anthony: Thank you. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Not specialist? 

Justin: Not specialist. I was about to say specialist. Or should I say expert. How did you get to where you are? Is it just reps? Did you have a training thing that really changed your life? 

Anthony: Yeah. So, I mean there's lots of postural management courses in the UK. Notably, there are a few from the Goldsmiths and then obviously Oxford et cetera. So lots out there that you can, you can access, which you know it's something that I'll continually do, continually investigate and learn. And then, you know, so all the practice and all the theory and then obviously working with the manufacturers who also do a great job in the main of helping us as what you would call reps, out there on the road.

I would never profess to be a an OT or a physio or a professional. We will always take guidance. I will always take guidance from them. However, what I have realised is that, yeah, my knowledge is pretty good. And you know an OT or a physio, depending on what it is, they can't be expected to know everything because it's like going to a GP.

I always think it's like going to a GP where yeah, you're expecting a GP to know everything and hang on, they'll have a pretty good knowledge of most things but then when they want to go, they'll send you to, dare I say, a specialist. 

Justin: Yeah, well they are specialists. 

Anthony: They are, but I feel like that's what we are, experts.

Let's go with that. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: That the OT, the physio, they can access us and actually say, "hang on a sec, this is what I want to achieve". This is the goal I want to look at and then okay, Anthony or whoever, how are we going to, how are we going to achieve that? And it's my job, our job, to be able to say, "okay let's look at that". And we, again because I'm very posteriorly focused, that's where we kick everything off before we even look at a base. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: We want to get the posture right. 

Justin: I think, I had a conversation with another OT about this recently, about the differences between the OTs and the assistive technology professionals and what are the roles between the two people. And I thought of a good analogy, which I was really proud of. It's kind of like ChatGPT, that how well you prompt ChatGPT? Like you the, you the OTP, the wheelchair expert, are ChatGPT and the OT is the user of ChatGPT and the OT could ask, "What wheelchair is good for my client with multiple sclerosis?" And ChatGPT would give an answer. But if the OT really preps the conversation, the question well, client has multiple sclerosis, seat width is 17 by 19, tried this in the past. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: You know has this, has a carer, blah, blah like, you know, this is what they like about their current mobility, this is what they don't like. The better they can do that, the better you- 

Anthony: 100% 

Justin: ChatGPT can give the answer. So thats kind of like a way for therapists to think of it, is you don't need to know, you don't need to be the ChatGPT, but you do know how to, you do know how to, how to prompt ChatGPT. You'll just, ChatGPT is just a robot. So you are just the robot. You can only go off the information that's given. The art I think is more around how to write a really good question into the bot. 

Anthony: 100%

Justin: And then how good you ChatGPT is dependent. 

Anthony: My ChatGPT is not so great, but no I agree with that and I would say that I personally think that there's a, there is still a quite a bit of expectation on the OT or the physio, whoever's doing the seating assessment.

And I want to take that stress away from them a lot of the time. So, because look, you've got some unbelievable OTs that are like maybe 30 years, 20 years, 15 years experience. That's all they've done. And yeah, it's brilliant for them. And they lead, right? But then there's a huge side of the work that we do that again, the therapists are expecting, they're not in a position maybe where they're experienced and might do it once every so often.

So how can they have the knowledge that you're doing five assessments a day over 20 years or whatever. You're going to have a natural, more knowledge on that. So it's about exactly that. Getting them getting, draining out of the OT and the end user if you're in front of them, but prior to going to an assessment trying to get all that information ready, which enables you to take the right equipment on the day.

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Yeah. So I totally agree with that. And the analogy is nice, but yeah that, that's I suppose, that's part of the trick, isn't it? 

Justin: It is. It is indeed. You mentioned that you're not a good ChatGPT. I think you are great, but like all chatbots or, as all OTPs, there are gaps in our knowledge so over the course of these podcasts and learning and things like that, what are the things, what are the gaps in your knowledge now when it comes to seating and wheelchairs? And I'll give you mine so it doesn't feel like I'm questioning you. 

Anthony: That's okay, I'm happy to. 

Justin: Because there's still gaps in my knowledge. Now, what are some areas that you think you wish you knew more information about? Or more had revision, like you had a good, foundational knowledge, but wanted to know more about. 

Anthony: Yeah. You were going to say what yours were, but I'll say mine. 

Justin: I'll say mine after it. 

Anthony: I think, I should, I always want to improve and I still do want to improve my knowledge on actual synopsis. So what is, what are people's disabilities and, or you know, what is the reason why they are there? So they might say, "oh yeah, I've got, Parkinson's." 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Okay. But then there's lots of degrees of Parkinson's. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: And I think my knowledge underlying on all those different issues of- 

Justin: What Parkinson's is, how are progresses, what are the different types...

Anthony: Exactly right. Exactly right. Because again, as you learn, anything sort of neural there's so many differentials and they could just be a little bit, they could have this and that, right? And therefore that can just make it that somebody then has an involuntary movement, which you just wouldn't have considered unless you have that knowledge underlying.

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: And that those, I suppose that's probably one of the areas that we, well I personally want to keep learning and understand. So maybe more from the clinical side, that side. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Posturally, I feel like we're in a really, I'm in a strong place, but still you know some people, there's therapists that I'll just, that'll wow me and I'll be like, "wow, like that is incredible".

So they're hands on and I'm very hands on I think as a, I think I'm more hands on than a lot of other assessors. That's not a good or a bad thing. I'm just saying that is me because that's one of the ways that I learned. 

Justin: Yep. 

Anthony: And get a feel, get an understanding of how that pelvis is going to set, et cetera.

But again, there's so much more work to be done in that area. 

Justin: There's always, and there's always more you can learn. I think again, both of us have a decade between us of experience in, you've got more right? You've got- 

Anthony: Two decades. 

Justin: Two decades. 

Anthony: You couldn't tell. 

Justin: I know. He's so young and handsome.

Anthony: Thanks, man. 

Justin: He's got a 17 year old son. I couldn't believe it. It's just amazing. 

Anthony: He's not mine. 

Justin: I hope he is. 

Anthony: He definitely is. 

Justin: I think with me, I, two areas that I don't know, I just haven't been part of my journey. One is moulded seating. So I've never done like the foam in place mould. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: Feeling that stuff. And I don't know if I want, I don't know if I want to, but I know there are people that I respect that do moulded seating. 

Anthony: I think, because I think we mentioned this in the last episode as well, I think that both of us, we both haven't worked in the moulded seating area, and actually I don't want it to, I think, to your own admission, nobody not for one second have you said that you don't like mould. It's just that we probably have more knowledge, therefore we're I suppose more confident but there is a place for moulds, and they've done a phenomenal job, I think,

probably percentagewise. It's just, I think probably with the equipment on the modular side that's come through. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: So developing all the time that it's, there are other options out there. And I think that's probably where our passion is as well. We want to change. We want to like, we don't just want to assist. We want to see if we can get it better. We can improve something and moulds are probably at the end stage in some ways. 

Justin: I hope we get, I hope we get someone on the pod that who has worked with both systems, cause no one will say moulds is the way to go. It's obviously for maybe your GM, FCS level five clients, like really complex postures, but it'd be interesting to see what they're all about. And the other thing I want to learn more about is sleep systems. I've done sleep systems in the past. I've worked with Simple Stuff Works. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: I've done the Goldsmith training. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: And I've met with them and we have Metfab, our distributor for Simple Stuff Works, Poz'In Form. 

Anthony: Other sleep systems are available.

Justin: The Dreamer, Dreamer system, yeah, I've worked- 

Anthony: Symmetrikit. 

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. We have that. And I get the idea of them, but I just, that's probably one I want to know more about because it's so important in terms of like real complex postures. Like when I see someone for a wheelchair assessment, and they're sitting like in a really asymmetrical way and we can do, I can do, I'm very very, confident in my wheelchair seating but there is some stuff we need to do for the eight hours a day when their bodies are relaxed and they're sitting in their posture and I, so I very much understand the benefits of sleep systems. I just haven't had enough clients to start Sleeping Works. I would love to. It's just, yeah, it just hasn't been part of my journey. 

Anthony: Yeah, let's get that going because I have had a nice bit of experience with sleep systems, but I would say very limited against what's, people who have got like what we've got in seating. So I think we need to learn about that, but I totally and wholeheartedly, and I think everyone, anyone who's into postural management would agree that, we're putting people, we're getting the best wheelchair seating that we can, whatever that may be for half the day, 12 hours of the day, let's say.

Hopefully with breaks in between and then somebody is going back to bed unaided. You're just negating any of the benefits that we're putting in and it's going to make it more challenging for lots of things as well like personal care etc, if we're going to contract then we're going to allow that contraction, we're going to then become, it's going to evolve into then the seating is not going to be right, blah blah blah, and it doesn't take long to develop a contracture.

Justin: No it doesn't. 

Anthony: So these things are extremely important and I think it's a great topic for us to get and educate ourselves more on.

Justin: Great topic because the biggest thing I've liked about it is that they, I wouldn't say they claim, but they do claim, I haven't seen it but they claim, there's research that suggests they can actually de rotate spinal postures as well. So usually we say if someone's fixed, contracted, this is how they sit and we need to accommodate.

And they say, no, you don't need to accommodate. You can actually de rotate the spine or the hips, through a sleep system which obviously I've never done. I think I've seen about five clients, because I only got into sleep systems over the past year, two years ago when I was in a new division, the kids division, working with kids and we were doing sleep systems.

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: But yeah, it's like people don't know me as the sleeping guy, so I don't get a lot of referrals for it. But yeah, I'd love to do more of it. So hopefully we can get some more. 

Anthony: All right, well let's learn. Let's learn. 

Justin: Sleep people I want to chat to, mould people I want to chat to. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: Maybe we can get some people who know more about progressive conditions and more about the science behind it.

Anthony: Let's do it. Justin doesn't know this but I'm sure, but in the UK we've got plenty of people that will be desperate to get on here. So let's get them going and I'll make some, I'll make some calls, but I'm sure in Oz they're equally, there's lots of people.

Justin: I know people and I know people from the US and Canada and everywhere.

Anthony: So anyone who's watching or listening, get in touch. 

Justin: If you've got a topic that you think you could teach us about, you're speaking to two guys, who are extremely-

Anthony: Good looking! 

Justin: Arrogant, but also very humble. And I do mean humble in a sense that, I'm happy to be proven wrong. I'm happy to have a conversation with someone and they say to me, "No Justin, this is actually a better way to do it". Or for topics I don't know a lot about, I'm happy to be like, "Alright, I trust you". I'd love to even have two people on other sides of the fence. I'd love to have two brands and be like, "Why is this brand better than that?" 

Anthony: Oh my God. You want war?! You want war?! 

Justin: And I can be like the gentle mediator in the middle. I'm happy to be the warrior on, battling one side. 

Anthony: I think like anyone listening is going to love that. Because I love that. And I want to learn and everybody I'm sure wants to continue to develop their own personal knowledge. But also, let's have fun. Let's have fun.

Justin: I had sort of an idea. We should have a, like an actual organised debate where we just literally flip a coin. If we can't decide who sits on one, let's say there's two types of folding manual wheelchairs. And if we can even pick a brand that we want to say, this is the, this is, there's nothing the best one. There's a reason why there's multiple chairs around but just for the sake of the fun of it, which is a better chair? And you can be like 'boom, boom'. And so say you've got the Aero X and I've got the Quickie 2, and I have to prepare before and I'll tell you why the Quickie 2 is better than the Aero X and you have to tell me why the Aero X is better than the Quickie 2.

Anthony: All right!

Justin: And we battle it out. 

Anthony: All right, let's do it. 

Justin: Oh, that'd be fun. We can do that for a few episodes. 

Anthony: Okay. 

Justin: Awesome. Mate, thank you so much for coming onto my podcast. 

Anthony: It's been lovely being a guest. 

Justin: It was a, it was great to interview and get to, get people to get to know you. 

Anthony: It's great. I'm glad you have been able to drain that information out with me.

You're a hard man to talk to. Now I do get, I'd like that people get to know you as, as well as I know you and see the great sides about you. So hopefully it gives a bit of context about who we are, what we're trying to do and we're going to make some fun stuff. 

So who are we? 

Justin: We are 

Anthony: Wheel Chat. One day that's going to happen.

Justin: Wheel Chat. And guys, if you do want to know more, send us to your friends. I don't know? Can you subscribe to a podcast? 

Anthony: Subscribe, send the link. 

Justin: How do you subscribe?

Anthony: I don't know. We're going to improve that next time. 

Justin: We'll work out our, we'll work out our sign off message. But until then, tell the other people that you think would like it because then that just motivates us to do it more and we'll find out what it is that you actually want us to talk about and we'll do that. 

Anthony: Cheers guys.