Wheel Chat - Your Go-To Mobility Podcast

Wheel Chat: Episode 3 – The Battle of the Mid-Wheel Drive Chairs

• Wheel Chat • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Get ready for an in-depth showdown in this episode of Wheel Chat! Hosts Justin and Anthony tackle the pros, cons, and nuances of mid-wheel drive power wheelchairs in a head-to-head comparison of popular models like the Quantum Stretto, Quickie Q300, Permobil M3, and Magic 360.

Topics include:

  • Compact Bases: Exploring the best options for tight spaces and narrow configurations.
  • Everyday Powerhouses: Breaking down the flagship mid-wheel drive chairs for daily use.
  • High-Powered Performers: Evaluating off-road capability and robust climbing power.
  • Budget-Friendly Options: Assessing affordable models without compromising functionality.

Packed with practical insights, personal experiences, and a touch of humour, this episode dives into what makes each chair stand out—and where they might fall short.



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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of Anthony and Justin.

EPISODE THREE WHEEL CHAT 

Anthony: Hi everyone and welcome to episode three. 

Anthony: Get ready. Battle of the mid wheels. Battle of the mid wheels. 

Justin: En garde! 

Anthony: So we thought as episode three newly, newly in we thought what's, what are people going to be really searching for and really one of the things that we do talk about a lot is mid wheel drive chairs.

Justin: Yes, one of the most popular of all the chairs that are out there, and there are so many different types. Do we need this many types? Is there unnecessary competition in there? 

Anthony: I'm putting on my glasses, Justin. Everyone's been kidding me on all day. Ah, I can see. Ah! 

Justin: Wow. It's like Superman. I didn't recognise you.

Anthony: So I am very professional and I have made notes. 

Justin: Oh, there you go. 

Anthony: Justin, on the other hand, is just super intelligent and has it all in his head. 

Justin: I'm going to use your dog as inspiration for my- 

Anthony: Really, in my life, if I didn't have post it notes, I should really just have loads of post it notes everywhere, because that kind of works for me. But yeah, look, coming back to mid wheels, what we thought was, and I think everyone who was listening would probably get on board with this, we wanted to really put it down into four different categories, didn't we? We said we would have a compact. 

Justin: Yes. 

Anthony: We've got everyday. 

Justin: Yes. 

Anthony: We've got high powered and we've got low cost.

Justin: Yes. 

Anthony: All right. So let's talk about that in and put it down. But what chairs 

Justin: Fit in which category?

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: Okay. We'll talk about it first. 

Anthony: All right. So let's go Permobil. All right. Because that is one of the most popular chairs on the market. And by the way guys, there are a lot of wheelchairs that we won't be discussing, but we want to really talk about prescriptive wheelchairs.

Anthony: So we feel that the ones that we've worked with the most and really the top end chairs that we're working with are the ones that we're going to be discussing. But, we do apologise, there are other chairs that we do think are excellent out there that we may not be, uh, discussing today. 

Justin: This is just our experience for chairs that we've personally worked with a lot.

Justin: So rather than just like reading the specs of what's out there, what have you actually experienced with each individual product? 

Anthony: Yeah, but hey, by the way, if there is anyone that's got an opinion on any other chairs and they want to, link into us and send us a message, like, you know, get in touch. 

Justin: Come in. We're even happy to have a rep on here to tell us why your chair is so good. 

Anthony: Not sure about that. 

Justin: Cause I'll, just know that we'll put you through your paces. Like we're not going to be like, 'Oh, that's a great product'. 

Anthony: We're not getting paid for this. 

Justin: Yeah, exactly. So we can be as honest as we want. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: So let's get through our first. So what was our first? 

Anthony: Okay. So we, we talked about it. So like, let's talk about compacts. 

Justin: Okay. 

Anthony: So in the Permobil, Permobil we want to talk about M1. 

Justin: I wouldn't say it's an, I don't think it's a compact. That's more of a low cost one. 

Anthony: Okay. 

Justin: I'd say your compact chairs that I work with personally would be your Quantum Stretto and your, like your Q500 mini. Also known as your Q300, depending on what kind of seat you put it in. 

Anthony: Yeah, yeah. 

Justin: But the, the mini bass, or the Q300, like to the Z300, like for the paediatric bass, that would be your compact bass. I guess your Koala, but your Koala's more paediatric. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: Is there any other compact base that you know of?

Anthony: Well, yeah, I mean, you would go, you've got, a Dietz. I know you're not hugely experienced in Dietz, but you've got, uh, a Sango Slimline. 

Justin: Yep. 

Anthony: You know, that is pretty compact, to be fair to it. However, it does compete in the other range, but if you were talking Q300, for instance, and, and the Stretto, then it's definitely in that range.

Justin: Anything that's like, um, there probably is a measurement, maybe like under 500, but what's the width of those? Do you have the specs on them? 

Anthony: Of course I do because I have done my research and really you should know this stuff because you know. 

Justin: 520 millimetres. 

Anthony: Yeah, you're not far off by the way. Um, so yeah, so if we're talking in, in width, actually the, Dietz, um, and if we're talking 14 inch castors, that's important to, sorry, 14 inch drive wheel. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: That's important to measure because obviously if we go 12 inches and we're going to make it slightly narrower, but let's work on 14.

Justin: Yep. Keep consistency. 

Anthony: All right, the Dietz is currently at 510. 

Justin: 510. 

Anthony: Okay, which is the narrowest coming up, but then your Stretto is only 520. It's only a 10mm difference and also the 300, the Quickie 300, Q300 is also 520. 

Justin: Yeah, so it's almost negligible, right? 10mm, 1cm, half an inch, whatever. So it's not that much difference in between them.

Anthony: Actually, sorry, 520 with 12 inch. The Quickie Q300 is actually 570 with 14s. 

Justin: So it's like five centimetres, right? 

Anthony: Hey, listen. 

Justin: We'll take what we can get! 

Anthony: But no, there isn't, I think, but if we're going to be like, you know, if we're going to call it as it is.

Justin: I would say they all fit within that range of a compact base. And the first thing I'd say about compact chairs is that don't even touch them unless you've got a seat width of 16 inches or under. Cause I think if you're over 16 inches, then what's the point?

Justin: Cause I mean, there might be a point, but you're... 

Anthony: Because what you're saying is the seat base is going to overhang. 

Justin: Yeah. I mean, and it depends on what kind of armrest you go and how the arm, the widest point of a chair is always going to be your arm rest. So if you've got a wide client sitting on a narrow base, it doesn't really matter how narrow your base is. I have had a case where it does matter for getting into a car cause they had a very narrow, like it was like, the clearance down here would need it to be narrow, but we had more room up higher. 

Anthony: Okay. 

Justin: So it didn't matter too much. But generally speaking. If you're ever going to go compact bass, if they're more than 16 inches in seat width, I wouldn't even consider it because the arms are going to be wider themselves. 

Anthony: Okay. So let's, let's break this down cause we've kind of gone straight into it, but let's just, for the, for the people that are listening that may not have the experience that maybe we do in terms of, what is the benefit immediately to a mid wheel drive?

Anthony: Let's talk about base first and then let's come back to that. Okay. So mid wheel drive, clearly we all know you would say has the best turning circle. 

Justin: Yes. Can turn on the spot. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: I'd say it's really easy to drive. Because you're sitting on top of the drive wheel, so it's quite intuitive. It's pretty good going up and down curbs, because you've got wheels on the front and on the back. They generally perform pretty well, they're good for everyday use. But yeah, being the most compact is the reason why people would go mid wheel drive. 

Anthony: What are the negatives before, you know, let's be honest about that? 

Justin: Negatives I would say is foot plates? Yeah, your foot plates. So if you've got castor arms on the wheels, the castor forks, and you've got wheels, you can only have your, you've got two options for leg rest.

Justin: You've either got swing away leg rest or centre mount. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: Now we can get into that, but generally speaking, centre mount's better, stronger, more compact, less metal work, less hardware, better elevating leg rest, all that stuff. And you can have it at a 90 degree angle, so you can tuck them right in. Whereas on swing away leg rest, you have to have them further out, otherwise they'll hit the front castors. 

Anthony: Correct you wouldn't be able to have a 90 degree swing away because it's going to hit the front castor. So you've, uh, I mean, yes, you may get lucky and you've got, if you're talking paediatric, you've got a short leg length, but even then it doesn't really work as effectively, right?

Justin: You have to have hangers that come out longer, which makes the chair longer, which can put a stretch on your hamstring, which can be not as comfortable. So generally speaking, a centre mount is going to be better for that. So mid wheel drives can have the problem is that, when you have a centre mount, your legs have to sort of sit a bit more so they get, they might be neutral and they might internally rotate here.

Justin: Whereas ideally you want to have your legs out here. So you want a wide centre mount footplate, but you can't do that because you've got castor wheels in the way. So this is where front wheels, this is why I really like front wheels because it allows your legs to sit a bit wider. 

Anthony: That's true. 

Justin: That's the downside of mid wheel drive. Historically, depending on which chair you get, they can high centre, I find, is that if you're going up a curb, so your front castors will go up the curb, and then your middle wheel will just get stuck in it. 

Anthony: I see this a lot. I mean, traditionally, even taking the chair up our ramps in and out the van, some of the mid wheel drives don't perform very well.

Justin: And we'll talk about which ones do well and not well. I call it the ramp test, which ones go well and which ones don't. 

Anthony: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this centre rises exactly the issue that you will experience sometimes with some of the mid wheel drives. More so than obviously your front wheel or your rear wheel.

Justin: I even think, um, slow speed climbing is trickier on a mid wheel because you've got those wheels you need to, if you go over a lip, you know when you've got sliding doors and they've got to go over, might not be that big, but you've got to do it at slow speed because you've got glass, the person's not a confident driver, because you're pushing those castors over it, you actually need a pretty off road-y, beefy chair, like a high performing chair because at slow speed you've got to push it nicely without it going, shoom, like, it's kind of like, if you have to send it, then that's a problem. So, this is where front wheel is, because the middle wheel is going on it and it just climbs over it. 

Anthony: Yep. 

Justin: Because your front wheel is the one that's pulling the chair over it. They perform a bit better. 

Anthony: I mean when they brought out mid wheel drives, they never thought they were going to survive. They never thought it was going to be a worker. Most people were like, hang on. 

Justin: There were rear wheel drives and there were a few front wheel drives. But yeah, the mid wheel drives came in. But now, mid wheel drives do about 80%. 

Anthony: Same here but in mainland Europe, that's, it's not the case. 

Justin: Yeah, there more front wheels. 

Anthony: They are or rear wheel yeah, but it was like really brought out for like the UK market from our perspective, but you know, clearly the Australian market similar. 

Justin: Yeah, well generally speaking mid wheel drives at least in my market, in the market I work in pretty common. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: Pretty common because they're compact, they're easy to use. People love them. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: So let's go through the, can we go back to the compact now? 

Anthony: Yes, we can. Let's go back. But I just think it was important because if people are listening and they're maybe not got as much knowledge, but like, hang on a sec.

Anthony: What, what, why would I use that? Why wouldn't I use that? 

Justin: You pretty much default, always to a mid-wheel drive first, like you

Anthony: It's like a hybrid, right? 

Justin: Yeah, it's kind of like you wouldn't, I wouldn't do a power wheelchair trial without a mid-wheel drive unless someone was in a front wheel, and they knew they wanted a front wheel.

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: They've been through the whole process. 

Anthony: I agree, I mean like we agree like that start with about 80 percent. 

Justin: Yeah, right when I do trials, if ever, I do two mid wheels or a mid-wheel and a front wheel. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: Most of the time it would be two mid wheels. So mid wheel drives really good because most people want a compact base. They want a stable base and they want it easy to drive.

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: So based off that, what are the differences between these compact bases? Are they all not just the same? We have Quickie, Quickie Q300. We had the Quantum Stretto and the Dietz Sango. 

Anthony: Sango Slimline. 

Justin: Sango Subline. 

Anthony: Slimline, not Subline. Slimline. Yeah, that's right. 

Justin: What do you, have you found any differences between the, those brands?

Anthony: Essentially, in terms of drive capability, look, that is a really, really good question because I mean, I would say if you're putting third party seating on, then if you're, so the Quickie, they come with a SEDEO seating, but you can order a third party back. So you've got the different backrest canes. Therefore, third party backs are not are not an issue at all. Dietz are also not an issue with that in terms of, um, application, both are easy. I'm talking this through, but I don't have a favourite. I think that... 

Justin: Have you found that one's won over the other? Like have you had the opportunity to trial two?

Anthony: Yeah, of course. And we would say that they're probably 50/50. I think a lot of the people aesthetically maybe go for the 300 more than the Sango. However, because of the advantages of the Sango, like the width is slightly less and it's got the lowest seat to floor height. 

Justin: What's the seat to floor height on the Sango?

Anthony: The seat to floor height on the Sango, now you've got me on that because that is it, but I know it goes to about 16 inch. So that's particularly low. 

Justin: For the users at home, most chairs are 17 and a half inches from the floor to the seat pan. Some, some chairs would do 16 and a half. Yeah. I think the Quickie is 16 and a half. If it's 16, that's lowest low. 

Anthony: Yeah, it's really low. Yeah. It's the lowest on the market for sure. Yeah. 

Justin: Well, the lowest is, actually- 

Anthony: I will come back to you on that though. 

Justin: The TA-iQ is the lowest. That's got 14. You seen that one? 

Anthony: No, I have not. 

Justin: TA-iQ, I don't. I haven't worked with it, but they do it in Australia. It's 14 inch low seat to floor height. The differences between the compact chairs is mostly gonna be your suspension. How well it can climb because whenever you go a compact base, somethings got to give and the thing that usually gives is how well it climbs and I find the best for me, I've seen the best one that climbs I actually find is the Q300 for two reasons.

Anthony: I agree I was literally about to come in and just say carry on. 

Justin: I think it climbs better for two reasons. I think it's got bigger front castors, which is good. So it helps, bigger wheels often roll over things a bit easier and it still maintains the 4 pole motors. I know the Stretto has 2 pole and I know not everything is about the poles. Poles is kind of like, your V6 versus your V8, but it's not all about like, you know, a V6 can outrun a V8 depending on other factors. It's not everything but It's a good indicator of how powerful a motors would be. Like when you compare like for like, a 4 pole motor is going to be better than a 2 pole motor. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: So that still maintains the 4 pole motors. 

Anthony: The seat position on the Q300 is very central to the base as well. 

Justin: I found it's like really forward on the kids on the, well, maybe, for the kids before the Z300, I always find, well at least in Australia when they manufacture them, the centre of gravity is always, it can go back but they always set it so far forward.

Anthony: All right, interesting.

Justin: But it can go, like you've got adjustable centre of gravity so that can keep it a lot better, so I think you got bigger motors. You've got uh larger castors and just in my experience it just climbs better.

Anthony: Performs better.

Justin: But yeah, how does the Dietz do? 

Anthony: No, it's a good performing chair as is to be fair the the Permobil as well, but in terms of what we're talking about, I think that the Q300 may just edge it on the climb, which is what I was about to say and I actually think, it's just the way it performs in terms of the centre of gravity. That positional, position, the way that it performs is it's just it just seems to do certain gradients that the other... it's not that it doesn't do, it just has that smoothness to it. 

Justin: But at the end of the day, the trial will tell everything so it might perform better in terrains that I've experienced with clients weights that I've experienced like we all have our own individual experiences. It's hard to compare like for like but you know when you do the trial that's the one thing you want to look at. Let's look at the most challenging areas. Which one's going to climb better? I actually really like the Q300 as well out of all the bases because the Stretto I find has a big butt. And what I mean by big butt is that when you use it as an attendant? 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: You always kick, kick its butt. 

Anthony: Yeah, 

Justin: So it's got because the batteries are rotated this way to make it narrow, it just has a bigger butt on the back. So when you're using it as an attendant, you just find you kick it, whereas on the Q300 I find the attendant comes out a bit further and you've got more room for your feet and for me, when i'm using with kids, if I'm using it with kids who are in the chair, more often than not, you're gonna have an attendant control.

Justin: I mean, most, like probably like 50 percent of the time, a power chair has an attendant control. So you've got to think about how does it work for the user, but also how does it work for the attendant? Cause I would hate if I was to think, if I was to use a Stretto as an attendant user, I would probably find it really frustrating if I had to care for someone and use that chair. Like when you have it in tilt, it'd probably be fine. Cause it comes back a bit more. And maybe I would ask for an extension to come out further but I think generally speaking that's where I like the Q300. 

Anthony: Yeah, I mean look mid wheel drives are not the greatest for attendant controls either because of the nature of how the castors work in the six wheels, the two wheels at the back and just that the way that they kind of um in-rig as such but- 

Justin: Just bear in mind, mid wheel is not the best but rear wheel is the best because you're closer to the back.

Justin: You've got the attendant control at the back. So your pivot point is more natural whereas front wheel is the worst because your, your pivot point is at the front. So when you turn left, it swings so far away from you. Whereas rear wheel drive, it's it's so intuitive.

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: Just in terms of like the differences between the bases, rear wheel drive best for attendant. So if it's only attendant then maybe you might want to consider that but it's also still a long base. So, you know, I would I wouldn't do a rear wheel for that reason. But that could be a reason why you might use a rear wheel. If you've got plenty of space and you need it really easy to drive. Mid wheel drive is, it's very common for attendant driving. Front wheel drive, not impossible, but also not preferred for attendant driving. But not impossible. Like I could do it fine, but just, for someone using it for the first time.

Anthony: But that's Justin. 

Justin: Yeah, I can do it because I'm amazing. 

Anthony: And, and again, we can talk about attendant controls, on a separate episode, but like, you know, you guys using the scoot out there, using the traditional- 

Justin: Very rarely. It's pretty expensive. It's like, I don't know the equivalency of like, six cushions like six JAY Fusions. I don't know what your prices are but? 

Anthony: Yeah, I mean, it's roughly anywhere between like two and a half and three and a half thousand pound dependent on where it's coming from. 

Justin: Ours are about five or six thousand dollars. 

Anthony: Yeah, which is right. We were working that out. So it's exactly right. It's a lot of money, but it does, it is a good product and we have had a lot of carers that, um, or, you know, parents, family, husbands, wives, whichever, that have really benefited from having the scoot because they just can't get to grips with the traditional, controller on the back.

Justin: Yep. Yep. I'll say that so I think in terms of the, going back to the compact bases, I would say those are the main ones. 

Anthony: Yeah, so Justin's picks, sounds like you'd probably be in the Q300. 

Justin: I'm Q300, but I've done my fair amount of Strettos as well. People who like the base, sometimes the seating system works better from going power seat functions.

Anthony: The Stretto is always great with the kids as well, like on the paediatric side always. You can put a really nice small seat on there. 

Justin: I just find that the suspension, like I've even been told by a rep to, the Edge 2 is actually better for kids. Because the suspension's a bit softer like the springs don't-

Anthony: It can be a bit clunky.

Justin: Yeah, like it doesn't sink into these like lulls as well for kids. I thought that was interesting. Like you need to have a bit more weight on it. 

Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. 

Justin: I haven't done enough testing to compare Edge to... be good to have like, I'll get one of my little cousins and get them to drive it and see, which one's works better. All in due time. One day when we've become professional YouTubers, we can do it.

Anthony: Uh, okay. So moving on, right. Let's talk about... should we go, we've done compact. Let's talk about every day. 

Justin: Every day. So every day to me is like your flagship. M3, Edge 3, Q700. They're the three main ones. What do you do? 

Anthony: Very, very similar. We're exactly, I mean, isn't that unbelievable? 

Justin: Oh my God. 

Anthony: Yeah. Um, look, I mean, we've, I've mentioned the Dietz as well. I mean, that, that kind of is that hybrid chair as well, but like, yeah, we're, we're exactly, we're talking the same language there. Any sort of preference on those? 

Justin: In terms of getting the right seating and putting things in the right spot, I love Permobil because I find the Corpus seating is just so adjustable. I find I can put the thigh guides where I want them to go. The back, the Corpus back is good. It's got your laterals where you can go up and down easily on it. I find even just for me, you know, setting up is quite easy. It's just easy to pop things on and off and you can do it with the Quantum as well.

Justin: But I just feel like the Quantum, the Permobil's, I feel like I can, I can, if someone's complicated, I can, make magical things happen more with the Permobil. I can, I can get things positioned in better ways. And you can do it with Quantum as well, but I find it's harder. Like you might have to do aftermarket stuff. Like even their thigh guides. Have you seen like the Stealth thigh guides? I just, I really, I hate them because you can't like, if you've got a 16 inch wide chair, the thigh guides sit on top of the cushion. So it makes the chair 14 inches wide. But like with Permobil you can, put them like in line with it so you can, you know, you can go on top of each other.

Anthony: I mean, I've got to be honest, I don't use the Corpus seating as much as I possibly could do. I do, I do a lot of third party seating. So like, maybe I'll look at getting a Spex seat cushion that would have the thigh guides internally within the cushion as opposed to using that. I may, I may use like products that are from third parties, like Gel Ovations, cause you can get some nice swing away thigh guides on there. Don't get me wrong. You could still then, you know, use the thigh guides from Permobil and then change the seat cushion because you can put it on the outside track, you know, there's lots of different options you can do. 

Justin: Yeah, I think, I think there's, there's probably three parts of all these conversations we should be having is the base, the electronics, and the seating system. So just looking at the base- 

Anthony: We should only be talking bases because we're having the battle of mid wheels. 

Justin: Okay, battle of mid wheels. Okay, base, so ignoring the seats. 

Anthony: Yeah, we're not talking about seating. 

Justin: I would say, I haven't had a lot of great success with the Q700 in terms of suspension. I've found that even going up hills or even like, I've seen that it's like- 

Anthony: I mean the Q700 is a big chair.

Justin: It's a big chair. It's a wide chair. It goes down, it goes down gaps the best. Like you can go off a gutter and it would just like, spider jack, all that stuff. But I find, I've even had experiences like going up a hill and then like, up a ramp and it sort of like slides down, but that could be the suspension's not right. But yeah, I've just had like not super great experiences with that sometimes and I find the castors are a bit small-

Anthony: For the size.

Justin: Yeah for the size of the chair. It's just my experience guys. 

Anthony: No, no, you're saying how it is.

Justin: But it's I'd say with bases they're all pretty similar in terms of their climbing, climb ability, going down ability. Smoothness in the suspension, I can't really tell the difference but I have been told that the Quantum chair is the smoothest on the, like if you're just driving along the road in a bit of cobblestone?

Anthony: Yeah, like maybe gravel and stuff like that. 

Justin: Yeah. Because they use oil dampening suspension as opposed to gas powered suspension. So that's like differences between the M3 and the M5, which is the, like the type of dampening they use. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: So the Quantum has like dampeners, the oil is like what they use in cars, so it's like it's, it smooths out the bump, bump bumps a lot more, but I find the Permobil is also...

Justin: it's just a bit, I've had the Quantum like spin out on me on sometimes, like when you're go on up a, a gutter, uh, you guys call 'em gutters here. 

Anthony: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Justin: Um, just making sure the terms, um, you're trying to go up and then it, one wheel catches and it sort of like, spins out. 

Anthony: Spins it. Yeah.

Justin: And maybe 'cause it doesn't have the Accu-Trac motors or, I don't know why it does that, but I've had that and clients are like, 'oh no thank you'. 

Anthony: Okay. 

Justin: Whereas the M3 I've just find it's always just been like a stable, good chair. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: Doesn't, like, doesn't do weird things. It drives nicely. It climbs okay.

Justin: It's not like, you know, there's other like the off the road chairs that are a bit better, but it's a pretty good all rounder base of a chair. It's, it might, it's a bit wider, I think, than the Edge 3. The Edge 3, I think people like the look of the Edge 3. It's smaller, it's more compact. 

Anthony: Yeah. But you're talking, well, yeah, I suppose if you're levelling it up against like an M3- 

Justin: or Q700, people look at the Edge 3 and they think, 'oh, that looks more compact'.

Justin: And it probably is more compact. 

Anthony: I mean, we would have the Q500 here. 

Justin: Yeah, we have the Q500. I don't know. I, I see that more like it sort of sits within that lower cost. It does cost a lot less than the other ones. Yeah, but our Q700 would be on the on par in terms of cost wise. 

Anthony: Oh, okay. 

Justin: Flagships. Q500 is kind of like in between. It's not like a low cost one, but it's not. 

Anthony: I just find that with the Q500, yeah, you're just, you're just not going to that side, you know. So on a practical level, it can just be a little bit more practical. 

Anthony: However, I do get the suspension um, scenario and I do actually, have experience with scenarios that you've just sort of said and yeah, it's... I guess... if somebody's going to be doing a lot of outdoor over terrain then that's the consideration that that may be the reason why one may go for another. But if they're coming home and they need to get it through some doorways and things then, you know, we may need to evaluate that.

Justin: Yeah, I've also found with the Quantum suspension. It doesn't have, like the Stretto, like the Stretto version, it doesn't have those rear shocks. It's got like that transverse. Yeah. Like that, I don't know why they do it. Someone explained to me once and I can't remember why that would have suspension going this way instead of this way on the chair, but I've had a client who was like, uh, alternate control. And we're doing a head array and then he was coming down the lip. So going down the lip was good, it was like boom four castors, boom wheels, and then because there's no suspension on the back, it just goes dud. It just like hurt his back and it wasn't that much of a lip. It's like probably that much but because, there was, it just goes, middle wheel tyre and then back castors and there's no like softening into it.

Justin: It just goes And so that was like, oh, no, thank you. But it was like Again, if we're just talking bases- 

Anthony: New rep, please. 

Justin: Uh, out of my house. No. Well, then we try the next chair and the next chair, like that was like an example of where it done well. 

Anthony: Okay. I'm going to get you to commit, um, every day where we're going? 

Justin: But looking at the base only... 

Anthony: Come on, Joe, Justin 

Justin: I'll say M3, just for like safety and just kind of reliability.

Anthony: Nice chair. Yeah. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't argue with you on that one. 

Anthony: High powered?

Justin: High powered, I would say we have the M3 Magic 360. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: The M5. 

Anthony: Yeah. Then you go? 

Justin: I don't really do the Edge Z, but that, that is their Quantum's version of the high-powered one. I don't have a lot of experience with it, but do you, do you have any?

Anthony: No, I mean that, the

Justin: What do you do for your big boy chairs?

Anthony: Yeah, the 360 are our leader, uh, for that at this moment in time. But you've got the Q700, which we would put into that category.

Justin: The big boy ones. 

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. You've got the F5 potentially. 

Justin: That's a front wheel. 

Anthony: Yeah, you've got the 4Front, on the front wheel. 

Justin: Battle than mid wheels, mate. Mid wheels only! 

Anthony: Yeah for me, 360 for me. 

Justin: But have you done, have you done like, um, I remember I posted about that on LinkedIn and had a lot of people from the UK blow up and they were like, 'what about this chair'?

Justin: And I can't, I don't know if it was a Dietz or, what other chairs are like? 

Anthony: Well, there's a Dietz, the Dietz Advance, which is good, and then you can get their chunky one as well. And I can't, I apologise, I can't remember if they just call it Advance, like sort of outdoor, where they put the, uh, the larger drive wheels on and the larger castors.

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: I mean, look, the, the 360 on the, on the 800 watt motors is, is pretty impressive. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Um, the fact that you can change the, you know, the drive wheels as easy as you can. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: Um, so if you were going on sort of certain terrain, outdoor terrain, you can then, if somebody is going to be using it in a school environment, you can then just swap it into the narrower tyres.

Anthony: Yeah. So I think it's got a lot going for it. Yeah. 

Justin: I think the, I would say the 360, cause the fact that you can have those community tyres on there, you can't get those on the Permobil. 

Anthony: No. 

Justin: And the community tyres are like those big boy, like maybe like this wide, tyres. Maybe, maybe like size of your fist probably and they're good because they absorb a bit more impact when you're driving.

Justin: So it makes it smoother, but also because it gives you more grip so the bigger your wheels you've got on as you're climbing something you've got more rubber hitting the surface so you can climb obstacles really well.

Anthony: More traction. 

Justin: Yeah, so I would be surprised if there was a terrain that the 360 couldn't do that

Justin: the M5 could do or the 3 like, you know, I think magic would if you're doing like this track I would have to guess that the 360 would be the best performance. And keep in mind guys we're just talking about the bases so there's more to decide on which chair is right for a client than just the actual performance of the bass. 

Anthony: 100%. 

Justin: Like, there might be someone, like, just because we're saying 360 doesn't mean, 'oh, the 360 is right for everyone'. There's absolutely, like, I do, I would say I do more Permobils than I do 360s. And so we can talk about that in terms of other reasons, maybe cross brands later.

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: But just talking about bass performance and what you can do with it. 

Anthony: Yeah, because Ottobock have got some, have got the, the B7 as well, like that, that, yeah, mid wheel. 

Justin: That's another thing I'm like, why did Ottobock come out with a mid wheel drive chair? Like, what need are they solving, and where is this hidden?

Anthony: Well, I think at the end of the day, they must be losing a lot of business up from the other guys. We haven't mentioned them once. 

Justin: Is it a me too product? Like, to me, because when we're deciding, we're also thinking about our relationship with our supplier, how well we can get parts, how familiar our team is, like, you know, we've got to service these things.

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: How easy is it to service, how quickly can we get out there and fix it, like, these are all other aspects that we think about but just looking at the base like why does the B7 exist? Like what is it doing that other chairs can't 

Anthony: Yeah well, I mean the the honest truth is we need to find out. Yeah, I don't know too... we haven't had enough experience with that chair yet because it's not that long out on the market and in the grand scheme of things. It's a nice looking chair. Actually, you know traditionally, sorry Ottobock you make great product, but like, as in really, you know, we get, we don't get a lot of callbacks on that product, but, um, aesthetically, maybe it has lack of, yeah, you know. 

Justin: And that's what Magic 360 had in the past. They had like their V6, which looks like, I don't think it was even with you guys.

Anthony: Nah, we didn't have it. 

Justin: They had like their farm, it was like all farm equipment. It was like real, simple. Robust, like if a farmer could change a castor arm if they wanted to, a quick bolt. 

Anthony: Yeah.

Justin: But it just didn't, it looked like a very agricultural chair. And then when they bought it at 360, it performs better and it looks more like an everyday chair.

Anthony: Okay, so we are saying, I think we agree on it, that we will go for the high powered 360 at this moment on a mid wheel. 

Justin: 360 because of its great climbing capacity, smoothness of riding and option for big boy tyres. 

Anthony: All right. We're going to, we're nearly at the end of the episode. 

Justin: All right. 

Anthony: So low cost. 

Justin: Low cost, I would say, what I work with is the Jazzy 623, the M1, and maybe the Q400.

Anthony: Yeah, I mean, you've just named them and then you've got like the Q200, the Q100. 

Justin: But they don't have tilt. 

Anthony: Pardon? 

Justin: They don't have, they don't have power tilt. 

Anthony: True. But we're talking bases here. 

Justin: Are they, yeah true, but I like, do they, I don't know, they more fit, I've never done the one, Q100, Q200, are they... are they scripted?

Anthony: Yeah, you can script. But they're just not as highly prescriptive as the others. But you can. Yeah, but I mean, if you're comparing it against like an M1 or something. 

Justin: Yeah, I'd say, let's say with tilt, oh, it doesn't really matter. I've never, well only I say with tilt, 'cause I haven't used the Q100 or 200, so I can't comment on it.

Justin: But with the ones that I have worked with, yeah, M1. And your um 

Anthony: I mean your Quantums and then you're going into your Jazzy's like you said. 

Justin: Like, yeah I haven't found a big differences in terms of we're looking at the bass themselves. Maybe we have to do another episode. 

Anthony: I think Quantums at a low cost, they they're pretty hard to beat. I think I think the Q4 or something. 

Justin: Uh, no, I don't know what you guys call it. We don't have the Q4. We have the Jazzy 623. Do you have that? 

Anthony: No, we used to I think again, sorry, uh Jazzy, I'm sure like we call it the Q, this is where it gets... why did Sunrise bring out the Q's? When the, when the Quantum's always had the Q's. 

Justin: Pick a new letter, I don't understand. Quickie, because Quickie and Quantum, they just, they love it. 

Anthony: Anyway, either way, we're going probably with the Pride slash Jazzy slash Quantum on the, on the low cost. 

Justin: Yeah, so I'll look up, um, what it comes up as here if I turn up in Jazzy.

Anthony: While you're looking up, I'm going to just wrap this up. Because our users have got to go inside. They've got coffee to drink and they've got people to feed. So, or people to help or assess. Who knows why they're listening to us or when they're listening to us. But, listen guys, it's been great to be able to thrash this out, with the two of us.

Justin: Yes. 

Anthony: And I think we have got some stuff to add on to the link. Don't forget, follow the link and what should they do? 

Justin: They should, I've been told, follow and subscribe. 

Anthony: Follow and subscribe. That's what to do. 

Justin: And then also, if there's an opportunity to leave a comment, either DM us individually or leave a comment on the video. But let us know what more information that you guys want to hear, because we're making this for you. We can talk about anything. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: And I mean anything. Like, so just tell us, like, do you want to know more about this detail or that detail? So, every episode, let us know what you want, because the people who are commenting and watching it are the ones who are making it for us.

Anthony: Thanks guys. You've been listening to Wheel chat!

Anthony: Wheel wheel wheel chat wheel chat.

Justin: Wheel chat later. Wheel chat later. 

Justin: Yeah what a great sign off. 

Anthony: I love it. 

Justin: Wheel chat to you later. 

Anthony: Cheers guys