Wheel Chat: Episode 6 – Innovations in Wheelchair Technology and Adaptive Seating

In this episode of Wheel Chat, Anthony and Justin connect from opposite sides of the globe to dive into the latest breakthroughs in wheelchair technology and adaptive seating solutions. From AI-driven posture control to innovative designs for abduction seating, this episode has it all.

Topics include:

• Game-Changing Air Cushions: Exploring smart seating solutions like Aergo and Tim’s latest creations for optimal posture and pressure relief.
• Adaptive Seating for Kids: Tailoring solutions for young clients, including a heartwarming story about a 4-year-old mastering mobility.
• Custom Abduction Seating: Overcoming challenges with bespoke cushion and footrest designs.
• Technology Meets Accessibility: How apps and AI are shaping the future of assistive devices.

Join us for an engaging discussion packed with practical insights, expert advice, and a touch of humour.

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We’d love to hear from you. If you have any questions about this podcast, please email us at wheelchatpod@gmail.com

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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of Anthony and Justin.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Wheel Chat!
• 1:05 Debriefing and Wheelchair Themes
• 2:08 Innovative Wheelchair Products
• 7:06 Client Success Stories
• 14:02 Challenges in Seating and Abduction
• 24:52 Weekly Wrap-Up and Future Plans

Transcript

Anthony: Welcome to Wheel Chat! 

Justin: Wheel Chat lives! 

Anthony: How are you brother? 

Justin: From all over the w- good mate! From all over the world. 

Anthony: Yeah. Ah, listen, great to have you and great to be on Wheel Chat from another side of the pond. 

Justin: I know. I know. Good morning. 

Anthony: Yeah. It's brilliant. Brilliant. So, welcome everyone. Welcome to Wheel Chat.

Anthony: We are doing our first podcast today from UK / Australia, which is very exciting, isn't it? 

Justin: Technology bringing us all together. 

Anthony: So we opened up, the first five podcasts from doing it on my couch, which was really exciting and really lovely to have you here. And now we are unfortunately, but fortunately, back in our own hometowns.

Anthony: But it's great to open up and actually what's really exciting and what we were chatting about, just over the last week or whatever, when we were just chatting is uh, we can chat about how we are and what we've been doing because I think that's really important that we check in and talk to each other a bit more.

Anthony: Right. 

Justin: That's it. Let's debrief. Debrief with the theme of wheelchairs. Talk about our successes, talk about our challenges and together, hopefully we come up with some good solutions, good advice, and that hopefully helps everyone else listening. 

Anthony: I think so. I think so. Because I think that, people have been sort of saying to me, I would just really love to know like how you guys get on and just, you know, what's the challenges, tell me how you've overcome things, and I think that's really relevant, isn't it? So it's great to, great to open up. By the way, just for the record everyone, because you'll be wondering, how are they making this work? Someone's in Australia, someone's in the UK, like, what's going on? So, my current time is six in the morning. Your current time is? 

Justin: Five in the afternoon, mate. Just knocked off work. 

Justin: But this will be the regular meeting time. So when you're hearing us, if Anton sounding a bit dusty in the morning and I'm feeling peppy, that's probably why. Yeah. 

Anthony: How does that work, man? How does that work? Yeah. But it's not, it's really, it is really lovely. So, firstly, how's your day been, man? How was it? 

Justin: Yeah, my day, uh, my day was great. I had, uh, I had some meetings in the morning about some, so when I was in Rehacare I saw some products that I thought really need to come to Australia.

Justin: So I actually had one of those meetings today with one of the distributors. This is actually for the air pump, the like for that goes onto a Roho. So you pump air or as needed. Yeah, to go into there. So I think that's a really cool product. I'm not sure if, uh, the company I work with, will specifically distribute it.

Justin: We're not too fussed if we do or we don't, I just want to see it in Australia. I think. it's a really good product. And he's also got some other products as well, which is awesome. This guy, This guy's named Tim. Shout out to Tim from Caligon. He's also making another cushion. 

Anthony: I'm going to stop that. I'm going to stop that. I'm just getting excited. It's too early in the morning. 

Justin: I love that. Peppy in the morning. Um, he's also making another cushion or he's made another cushion, which is pretty cool. It's kind of like an alternating air cushion, but unlike the mattresses which have like a two in one or a three in one or even four in one cycle.

Justin: It more does it from sections. So like when you can't... so when you've got a mattress, this is what I learned today, when you have a air mattress you can do the a B or the ABC cell cycles and it works okay, but it doesn't translate well to seated surface because the seated surface is so much smaller. So when you take away one row of air cells to offload, it doesn't really work well, it doesn't pressure map well because it adds to much load on the other areas.

Justin: So what he's done is made another cushion, which is specifically designed for the pelvis and you can add or vent air into certain different areas as needed. It's all programmed in. So the air will add and vent by itself. So you'll do offloads throughout the day without the user needing to do anything. So without the need of tilt or to lean forward or to lean one side of the other, it does do offloads. And apparently from what he says, it offloads just as well as like a physical offload, like when you lean forward to get blood back into your ITs. So he's able to do that still within a cushion. So that's pretty cool. And you can even like add obliquities and things like that. So if it's got one side higher or lower, you could be in real time and see one side's lower than the other and just like tell the app, like all right, put more air into that one. And then you see the, the pelvis balance out. So that's pretty cool.

Anthony: That's cool. I've got a friend called Shiana and she also has the same/ similar product that she invented. She'd been working on it for like five years. They won the Dyson award for design and it's called Aergo. You need to check that out. Um, yeah, A E R G O, and it's a very similar, yeah, it's a very similar, cushion that does how you've described, but she also has a backrest that has laterals like almost like a cover, an overlay that goes over like a Jay or matrix um back and it does a very similar job.

Anthony: It's like AI essentially, so it learns how the user sits and can talk to that. Oh, you've just shared your screen. 

Justin: Oh, no, this is not it. 

Anthony: No, that's not it. 

Justin: That's the power of doing podcasts over the internet. We can just share a screen. 

Justin: Aergo Health. 

Anthony: Yeah, that's the one. 

Justin: Cool. 

Anthony: Yeah. There you go. 

Justin: And then, I think I remember you telling about this. This is one that vents, yeah, so it's got three different cells. And you can offload left and right as needed. 

Anthony: Very cool. You know, people should check that out. It's really cool.

Anthony: So, so yeah, she's been working away. So yeah, anyway, the point being is that between his and hers, I think that's really cool that technology is sort of taking us that way. She's got an app, you've got an app on your phone, so you can just, the user can just type it in but also the physician, or the clinician, they can check in from another area like mobile, and see how, how long's Justin been sitting for. Justin, you told me you were sitting for like five hours without moving, but hang on, I can see that you didn't sit on this till 8am- 

Justin: That's cool. It's cool when you can bring technology into, yeah, it's cool that technology evolves a bit more into the wheelchair and seating space, because it seems like it, yeah, some of the product is a bit lacking behind so there's more stuff coming through.

Anthony: I'm really passionate about um, posture, as you know, so for me, I love where technology is taking us in respect of posture, postural management, what the capabilities are... Hi Emma! 

Justin: Hi Emma. 

Anthony: Um, so, so yeah, so no, I think, I think it's, I think it's really cool. Two cool products definitely worth chatting about in the future. Maybe even let's get them on. Let's have a war. 

Justin: Yeah, definitely. Oh, you'd love it. Oh mate, Tim would be, he'd be really good on it. Like he was actually, I think I mentioned this in my video that I made with him. He was involved in the first successful rocket re... redelivery into Earth, like the Tesla rockets, the SpaceX. So the first rocket that actually successfully came down. He spent more than, he spent, as he said, he spent more time inside that rocket than anyone else, besides the astronauts, so. 

Anthony: Okay, and he wants to, and he wants to talk to us?

Justin: He wants to talk to us about wheelchairs! Yeah, no, he's a good guy, yes. 

Anthony: Joking aside, that's, that's very cool, that's very cool, no, no, definitely. No, I'd love to get him on for sure. 

Justin: Yeah, so mate, how's your week been so far? 

Anthony: My week's been pretty cool so far. I mean, we're only on Tuesday. But today, yesterday was a really cool day. Actually had an amazing client, met for the first time, uh little girl, four years old, Lottie. And she just lit my world up yesterday. She honestly, I've thought about her since the minute I, from, I met her at half 10 in the morning and we did an assessment till, I don't know, maybe it was like half one, it was like a three hour assessment.

Anthony: So basically, she's got, a lot of hypermobility, she's dystonic, a lot of dystonic movement, and she needs a new wheelchair, right? So she's tried in a power chair. Um, she tried, like, do you guys have the Wizzybug over in Australia? 

Justin: Sure do, yeah. 

Anthony: Yeah, cool. So she's been having a Wizzybug for, like, maybe a year and a half, maybe a year, a year and a half, I think mum said, and she just can't hold on to the controller.

Anthony: She just can't cause she, she can move it and then she'll just go into a hyper extension and, you know, loses control, which is very common on a lot of our cerebral palsy users or people that present how I'm describing. To cut a long story short, I think I've told you before but we have a product called the CoMoveIT head and foot steering system, um specifically designed for that user.

Anthony: So, there was a bit of postural management that we needed to put in place, so we did a seating assessment, got her on a Q300 Mini with a CoMoveIT head control and foot steering system, and at age four, within a minute, two minutes, she was driving the chair, man. 

Justin: Oh, man, that's awesome. That's awesome. So just moving through her head, like pushing back on the, like, head extension to go forward. 

Anthony: Right, so the first one, the way that we set it up was exactly that. We have three pads, three sensors. So back pad, she was able to, push her head back and that would push the gas. So move forward and back dependent on the direction. And then she had a left and right pad, but she also, so she was able to do that, which was cool. However, I had this feeling that she could use her left foot or a right, but she was a bit better on her left. Just from the assessment, postural assessment. So hooked up the left pad to use as the gas to go forward. And she was able to do that as well. So she didn't have to sort of hyper, you know, or encourage that hyper extension. Although she didn't actually show me that she went into spasm and couldn't control it. 

Justin: It's just annoying to do in general. 

Anthony: Yeah, exactly. So she was able to push down with her left foot. Very subtle. I mean, these pads are unbelievable. They just pick up just ever so slight. But the difference with that is a lot of users, or a lot of switches are based on the amount of power applied. So if you apply a lot of power, then a lot of acceleration is given out, right? So the amount of force that's applied determines how much speed you gain.

Justin: Yeah, that's interesting. 

Anthony: Whereas on the pad it doesn't work like that. It doesn't matter whether you're applying a little bit of force or a huge amount of force. So i.e. if you hyperextend this chair's not suddenly gonna whiz off and be unsafe. It, it's not, it's just, it doesn't matter how much of power is applied. And then on top of that, it's got artificial intelligence that it uses. So it knows that Justin drives differently to Anthony, and therefore it will learn every second how I'm driving and will conform to how I'm driving, and therefore make the drive a lot easier as the minutes go on of driving. So for her, the session just got better and better. I mean, she was chasing mum with the wheelchair. And she's got a little four week old brother who's in a buggy. So mom was pushing the buggy and she was like doing it. So cool, man. So cool. So I was buzzing, like I was buzzing. 

Justin: That's awesome, mate. I can imagine how amazing you are. I love those trials. When you, when you have a real tangible impact on someone right there and then, and especially if someone didn't have mobility and now they've got mobility. That's, that's exactly why you do it. Like, absolutely. Yeah, at four years old. There you go, mate. Because now they're old enough to respond, to know that they've been missing out. Like at four years old, they're aware that everyone else is walking and they're not. And so now you can give it to them. 

Anthony: Yeah. She was amazing.

Justin: That's awesome. 

Anthony: She was amazing. 

Justin: So with the CoMoveIT, I've never used the product before. I have seen it. I did see it at Rehacare. So you've got a, you've got a foot switch, which is just a physical, some sort of switch, right? So switch, meaning there's on/off and you can have proportional, you can have proportional controls like a joystick and you can even have a joystick kind of thing on the foot rest. But that wasn't, that wasn't suitable for her cause she didn't have enough control. She could just move it, but she didn't have strong control of her foot. Is that right? 

Anthony: Correct. Yeah. So a lot of users obviously can't maintain a position or hold a position, and they can't control the amount of pressure that they apply.

Anthony: They can apply pressure, but they can't, they haven't got that ability to maintain or evaluate or, you know, hold a certain amount of pressure. However, the pad is so clever. It's a sensor pad. It's not like a normal switch. So it's like a sensor pad that has much a larger surface area. So it's got areas of pickup. You know how normally on like a head array switch or something, you have to be very specific about the area that you, you touch and it has to be, it takes away all that issue. So it's very, very cool. Very cool. 

Justin: That's cool. 

Anthony: And I, I'm being, I'm telling you this in layman terms there, you know, there's lots to it.

Anthony: In fact, we should get somebody on. 

Justin: Yeah, we should. I know exactly who to get on. When I was in Rehacare, my shirt that I wore it said 'free hugs', and then in small writing it says 'and wheelchair advice'. That's my WheelieWorx shirt, if anyone's seen me at an expo. And I had a guy just randomly like, give me a big hug from behind and I was, and I was like, who's this guy? I turned around, I swear, do you know Heath Ledger? Do you remember the Australian actor? 

Anthony: You met, you met, you met Michiel. 

Justin: Michiel, I was like, oh my god, like he was talking to me. And I was like, as soon as like, I was with Emma, my wife and after we finished, I was like, 'he was a really good looking guy, wasn't he'? She was like, 'oh my god, he looked like Heath Ledger'! 

Anthony: Yeah, yeah, no, I know exactly. Michiel, by the way, and we'll get Michiel on but I, you want- I'm going to get the guys on because we work really closely with them in Belgium right? So, um, Michiel is awesome. By the way, he's like a super, super marathon runner.

Anthony: Like he is, he like won the Belgium marathon. 

Justin: Really? Then we can run to Australia then. 

Anthony: Yeah, he's, he's unbelievable. He's probably going to tell me I'm talking rubbish about the Belgian Marathon and it was in Bruges. 

Justin: He might be like, mate, that's not how the switch works at all. 

Anthony: Yeah, but I'm just like massive, I'm a big promoter of Michiel. So yeah, we'll get him on. But then there's Frederik, who's awesome. He's the, he's like the MD. And Elegast, who's the inventor. He's the brains behind the system. And he is, he's much more than that. He's a professor. 

Justin: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. let's get them on. 

Anthony: We'll get them on, but you know, late later. But you tell me, because I can chat all day, you tell me about your week man. So how, what have you been doing? 

Justin: What have I done? Right let me pick. Uh, I've just seen plenty of clients this week. If I was to pick one, I would probably pick the most recent one. Which was, um, come up a bit this week, which is, abduction in seating. So there's some kids that need to sit in abduction, um, whether it be just for preventative, like for hip migration.

Justin: So if they're... a lot of people can't see us, I won't do a demonstration... but the ball and socket joint, if it doesn't, if you're not standing, it doesn't form properly and you can get hip subluxations quite a bit. And particularly post surgery. We have one surgeon over here who likes his kids and a lot of abduction in sitting. Which is fine but it makes it really hard to make a wheelchair, with a lot of abduction. So, yeah, it's a tricky one. I had one which, so two trials- 

Anthony: Just for the listeners who may not, I mean I know we're going to have amazingly educated listeners, but let's just talk about abduction for just one sec, just so everybody is clear. And obviously people are listening, so they might not be watching us.

Anthony: So yeah, just explain abduction.

Justin: So whoever is sitting down at the moment, If you were to push your knees out left and right as wide as you can, that is a form of abduction. And if you go towards your body, your adduction 'a-d' duction. That's adduction. You can do that standing or sitting, but in a seated position, you can imagine your knees going out. And so having that abduction means that ball in the socket joint of your hip can get deeper into that region. And prevent that, uh, subluxation for kids whose muscles aren't forming, properly. 

Anthony: People might use a pommel or something to do that. 

Justin: But even then, if you use, you can use a pommel, but a pommel, a pommel more stops adduction. So if you're scissoring, so if you imagine trying to push your knees together, you put a pommel in between and that stops your legs. So your legs go back to neutral, but it doesn't really... it's hard to get abduction, which is beyond that. And I don't know what people do. I'd be really interested because what I do every time is go to Spex and say, 'hey guys, I've got another kid who needs abduction'. And they do a custom cushion for me where say the kid might be 14 inches wide in the hips and we want two inches of abduction. So it'd be 14 at the back, 16 at the front, and the pommel will be 2 inches wider. And that means that the, from a bird's eye view, it's like a trapezius? Yeah, trapezius shape to allow that abduction. But then you got to think, all right, what do you do about the footrest? Now on tilt and space chairs, like your Ki Mobility or your Quickie Iris, you can do what's called offset hangers, which allows the hanger, the leg rest, those little metal poles coming off the seat pan, to be offset by one inch each. Okay, so you got one inch, so that allows you to do two inches of abduction. That's not that much. What I'm talking about the kids who need quite a lot. And what those kids tend to do is swap the leg rest over, is you get one swinger or a leg rest. You put on the other side and the kids sit in with the calves, um resting on the hanger and the foot plates on the chair. So I hope that makes sense, but that that's a current solution. Sometimes people uh, I don't know if you've done this, but you can request a modification for the hangers to be, rather than click in straight, so when you swing in leg rest, they click in at a 45 degree angle, so straight being the foot plate in front of the caster wheel at a 45 degree angle would be, offset. So it allows people's legs to go out wider. So those are some of the solutions out there. Uh, have you, have you come across that in the UK? Do you have kids that need to sit in a lot of abduction? 

Anthony: Oh, massively. I mean, that's like a daily, request for us. Well, for me personally, it's something that I see a lot and yeah, that's really interesting topic. And actually I think we should talk about that separately, just like how we use cushions to, sort of help us with, different presentations. That'd be something for sure to talk about. But yeah, we definitely come across that problem. And actually we see it in a lot of static seating as well. So not just wheelchair seating, but if you're just applying it to a simple recliner chair for instance, or something, especially in the um, in the bariatric world, for instance, where you've got you know, not necessarily somebody who's particularly overly wide, but you know, they do present wider, but their legs are maybe oedemic or, endemic. And their, their legs are a lot wider than their hips. So in principle you have to accommodate that. And if you're only making a chair to accommodate hip width then you're going to have a problem with the legs because they're going to like basically fall off the foot plates or the leg or the elevating leg rest or whatever you're using. So yeah, it's a very it's it seems quite simple but it's actually it can be quite tricky to accommodate, right?

Justin: It is, it is indeed. And I'm trying to work out at the moment, I've got a guy who does some custom fabrications for me, but I'm trying to work out, so another client that I had was, he's on a power chair, so they need the elevating leg rest. But they also need to accommodate for abduction which is kind of strange because you're gonna be abducted and elevating the legs. But they... there's times where their legs are going to be neutral and you need to elevate them, and other times where they just want them abducted.

Justin: So either way, we essentially have a power chair with a centre mount leg rest, and I'm thinking how do we accommodate someone for abduction? Now we could just do a really wide footboard but then it's massive and you're not going to be able to get through tight spaces. So I'm thinking something like, um, like a hinge foot plate where there's two foot plates stacked on top of each other and there's a hinge there and it folds open so it's, you can have it wide and then folds back under. Not sure yet. Haven't worked it out. Have you ever done extra wide abducted the legs on a centre mount leg rest?

Anthony: Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, we've done some cool specials where in a similar scenario, we had a calf board. I don't know if you can see, but we had a board and the calf board. Um, so on a centre mount foot rest, like you were discussing that can be sometimes quite challenging to accommodate the legs in that presentation, because clearly when you've got single foot plates, they do normally give you a little bit more width than the centre mount foot plate.

Anthony: But the calf board, what you can do is we made one where exactly what you said, basically the calf board then flipped out. Okay but that really depends on the user being able to flip it out on their own. One of the engineers, I think, I'd need to look back on our specials library, but I think he actually made it so it didn't have to flip out. He could, the person could pull out from underneath, they could pull the pad out, pull the pad out that way, so it came out, so you had a centre pad... sorry for anyone listening. I'm kind of drawing it with my hands. Make sure you follow us on YouTube for all the visuals.

Anthony: So you have a centre pad and then from underneath you can slide out a sliding foot plate, but on a pad that you can slide out either side. And then that gave the extra width that the user needed to accommodate the calves. And then on the foot plate itself, we had a wider foot plate permanently in use, rather than having to flip it out. So that was the sort of, that was something that we did for sure. Um, so yeah. 

Justin: And what do you do for a cushion? Like, do you do much? What do you do for a cushion if someone's 14 inches wide at the hips but they need to be abducted? What cushion do they go on? 

Anthony: Yeah, I use Spex a lot as well. It seems like Spex promotion for that one, but they are really accommodating to be fair to them and they can help you. But I also use, there's a company called, FormAlign here but I think they sell the DreamLine . I think you, I don't know, that's over your part of the world anyway. They're, they're pretty good and we do quite a lot of specials ourselves in Leeds where we are. You know we'll accommodate, we'll produce something for that.

Anthony: There's a few cushions, I mean, Spex have brought out the Configurer Flex, that does allow you to do a bit with the actual cushion itself. So that's maybe a consideration to, to look at as well for you, rather than having to look at a specific special. 

Justin: I think it does. Yeah, I think, I think the Constructa, we have the Constructa Flex.

Justin: I think, Constructa, I think it's what it's called. I think it's 15 degrees of abduction. 

Anthony: It will be the Constructa and I'm just saying  'Configurer' . Sorry, I don't know where I'm getting  'Configurer' from. 

Justin: Yeah, that's right. I think it's 15 degrees of abduction. So that might be a good solution because that has a really nice keyhole technology where you can angle it out a bit.

Justin: I just can't remember if it does that as much as what this client needs, but I'll look into that before I send that script off. 

Anthony: Yeah, no, I mean you know, specials are great, but if we can use what we've got then it's always easier, right? It gives you more of a chance on the day to tweak it or whatever. So I would do that. And then we actually get, we'll make a cushion if we need to, we've got some manufacturers here that we can draw and they'll just physically make what we want, which is pretty cool.

Justin: Yeah. That's cool. 

Anthony: We just, we just always want to make- Yeah, yeah it’s a cool thing that we do. Um, but it really also depends to be fair, that we're managing pressure. So if somebody's got a pressure issue, then we want to use a cushion that is obviously got that clinical guidance behind it.

Anthony: So we won't negate any of the benefits by building something. We want to make sure that it's going to protect the skin integrity as well. So with a cushion that's been through all the clinical trials and it's not an issue, right? So, it's all good. It's all good. But that's very cool. So you feel like you've overcome that issue this week, that you were able to accommodate the client?

Justin: I want to speak to a few other people. I like the idea of having things slide out. I think my issue... we're going to have to do a retrial anyway, because the client's got surgery. They're a very complex client with like, their knee bends to the left.

Justin: Like, so if you picture pushing your left, on your left leg, if you get your ankle as to the left as possible. So you turn your knee in, keep doing that until it's 90 degrees. That's her knee. And it's quite fixed in that position. So there's a lot of, and stiff it's a straight leg as well. So I know we're going to need some sort of power adjustable leg.

Justin: But how we do that after surgery, even if they, maybe she might, she may not be able to tolerate elevating leg rest post surgery. They might do something to her hamstrings. Dunno, but that's the initial thoughts. 

Anthony: What chair out of curiosity were you, were you working with? 

Justin: M3, so the reason, so it was between the Quickie Iris with the iXpress or a power chair.

Justin: And I originally bought out the 500 Mini, the Quickie Q500 Mini, because I liked it as a compact base. It was a little girl, it's just for attendant use, so I thought, yep. Good one. But then when I realised we might need multiple power seat functions and the family is non English speaking background. I just think, for me personally whenever you go tilt, recline and legs, there's a strong lean for me personally towards Permobil because it has memory seat functions. And again, because this client was non English speaking background, it's going to be hard for, I just felt it was going to be hard for me to articulate not in their native language; 'Okay well when they're resting you want to go into this setting and go through this setting and tilt and then you go into recline and then this is how you elevate the legs'. You just want to be able to say 'hey push this button when you're in drive position. Push this button when she's resting. Push this button when you're transferring'. Like, you know have those yeah power seat functions there. So I think for me personally anyone with lift, tilt, recline, and yeah, um or parallel bend legs, like if you've got all the, all those functions, Permobil is a, is a big favorable option for me. So that's why we went, so that's why we're going to go with that one, but we'll look at that one on the retrial. 

Anthony: Okay, cool. Keep us posted. 

Justin: Yeah, I will, I will. I've actually been doing a lot more posting recently. So with all these catch ups, on my 'The WheelieWorx' page I've been doing like this new segment called 'Progress Notes', which is really fun. I'll just come out of a session and I'll just like speak for about maybe three or four minutes about what just happened. And I'll say 'hey, I just saw a client. We were deciding between this and this and the Dad wanted this but-' you know, just catch up about appointments. I think people like case studies. I would love that. I would love it if there was another ATP in Leeds, hint, if you want to do this. And just like a quick minute or two wrap up about what you did and then go on to your next appointment.

Anthony: Well, let's do it. Let's do it here. 

Justin: I've already started, mate. You gotta, you gotta jump on it. 

Anthony: I'm doing it starting today. I'm starting today. I'm not lying, I'm writing it down. I'm going to start today, right? 

Justin: Yeah, I try to keep it, I try to keep mine within, like, what are the key messages that the viewer will want to hear? Like, it's not just about me talking about my day. I'm like, all right, what's the, what message did I learn from this? What did I learn? What do I think people get wrong often? And then, like the other day I did one about, not writing off a power chair over a tilt and space wheelchair with a power assist because someone can't drive a joystick. So anyone who drives as an attendant for the first time with a joystick is going to be terrible. It doesn't matter who they are, it's going to, it's going to drive like, drive like hell. It's going to be terrible. So, so, um, yeah, so I just said, you know, as a lesson to everybody, don't write someone off in the first five minutes, give them some time, understand that there's more to it. So yeah. 

Anthony: Okay, cool. Amazing. Um, well, let's get going with that. I think that's a great shout. 

Justin: Let's do that for next week's session, I reckon. 

Anthony: Yeah, and if anyone wants to start, um, you know, they want to send us in any of that, then we can pick that up and discuss it and let's chat about it for sure.

Justin: Let's do it. 

Anthony: Um, so if anyone's got any problems, any challenges, I love that. I see what you did there. Uh, I'm sure. Uh, no, that's cool. So I think that's probably a good chance to wrap up on this week. Really good to do our first podcast from across the pond. Really looking forward to next week. Can't wait. Love chatting to you, man. It's always great, and you're looking good. 

Justin: I just love seeing you every week, mate. Thanks, man. I'm married, mate, so I'm happy now. Maybe check in in five years and see how it's going but right now I'm newly married, happy as hell, and life is pretty good at the moment.

Anthony: Oh, wonderful. Okay, man. Well, look, I think we're at that time where we're going to do a bit of self promotion, so if you want to click and subscribe, then please do so on the link. Through any of the, social media outlets that you're either listening to us on. But this has been Wheel Chat with Anthony Mitchell and 

Justin: Justin Boulos. Thank you so much, guys. We'll chat to you next week. 

Anthony: All right. Thanks for listening to Wheel Chat. Cheers. Thanks, guys.