Wheel Chat - Your Go-To Mobility Podcast

Wheel Chat: Episode 7 – Preventing Pressure Injuries and Optimising Wheelchair Comfort

• Wheel Chat • Season 1 • Episode 7

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In this episode of Wheel Chat, Justin and Anthony tackle one of the most common and critical challenges for wheelchair users: preventing pressure injuries. Drawing from real-life experiences, they explore how cushion selection, compliance, and posture play vital roles in ensuring comfort and safety for clients.

What’s in this episode?

  • A deep dive into the mechanics of JAY Fusion cushions and pressure redistribution.
  • Practical tips for addressing compliance issues and promoting proper seating habits.
  • Strategies for assessing posture and pelvic positioning to reduce injury risk.
  • Real-world problem-solving for therapists, ATPs, and wheelchair reps.

Through engaging stories and expert insights, Justin and Anthony share valuable advice on managing pressure injuries, collaborating with caregivers, and ensuring long-term client well-being. This episode is a must-listen for mobility professionals, caregivers, and anyone passionate about assistive technology.

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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of Anthony and Justin.

Anthony: Hi everyone, welcome back to the next episode of Wheel Chat. Good morning Justin, or good afternoon. 

Justin: Good afternoon, mate. It's, uh, after, after work where I am. 

Anthony: How's it been? How's your day been? 

Justin: Yeah, good, mate. Good. Busy day today. 

Anthony: Yeah, I'm tired. 

Justin: Oh, yeah, mate. But, never too tired to chat to you, mate. I was, I actually look forward to this.

Justin: I go through my day and I'm like, ahh I get to do the podcast tonight. This'll be fun. 

Anthony: Nice. Nice. Um, I went to sleep thinking 'is Justin, like, is he awake'? Or like, how's that working? Like that's just really, really odd. That I'm gonna get up. 

Justin: As you're going to bed, I'm just getting, as you're going to bed, I'm just getting started working.

Anthony: You were getting up? Well, you were getting started. 

Justin: Yeah, yeah. 

Anthony: Yeah, that's really weird. I don't know why I can't accept that. It's not that difficult to accept, but anyway, whatever. So yeah, so um, back at six in the morning or whatever it is now. So, yeah, it's all good. It's all good in the hood. So, right. Great to chat. Let's get straight into it this week. Let's, let's do it. So tell me Justin, we were going to chat and tell me a problem. Tell me how we solved it. 

Justin: Ah, what's happened this week? I figured a good one to talk about today was I had a client who has an early stage, the reports are they've got redness on their bottom from sitting on their JAY Fusion cushion, which is quite interesting because I don't get a lot of clients ever, maybe they don't tell me, but I don't get a lot of times where someone said, 'hey, the client's developed redness. Um, they've got a pressure sore'. It just doesn't, I just feel like, with good training, good you know, good assessment which cushion is right for the right person and instructions on how to use that chair and how to offload weight. Not a lot, but this client did develop a pressure injury, um towards... where was it now? I think it was, on the tailbone. I'd have to double check it was a few days ago now, but they had it and I was like, okay well let's, and you know, straight away the therapist is working with was like, let's change it. Let's go to a different cushion, which is obviously the knee jerk reaction.

Anthony: But I think it's important you go back and look at um, yeah do your whole consultation process as to what happens. So, you know, we asked where is the pressure injury and again, apologies, but pretty sure it was on the sacrum. Okay. Where like, um, are they like was it definitely caused by the cushion? Was it possibly from a shower commode that they're sitting on? Are they you know, sitting on a different surface? Is it part of their, could there be something while they're sleeping? It doesn't take much, you know, for some really at risk clients. Yeah, for sure. 

Justin: Okay, then yeah and they were confident it's from the chair. And then the reason why they were confident is because they said, look compliance is an issue and he's not massaging the gel before he sits onto the JAY Fusion. So for those who don't know, the JAY Fusion, very popular cushion. It's a foam and gel hybrid but the gel is quite fluid and so where your bottom sits, where your bones are, it will envelop around you.

Justin: So the principles around it, if anyone wants to know, is you've got foam, you've got a dense foam base, and on the sides, so if you were to put your hands on the sides of your butt cheeks, on the side there, you feel those bony parts, that's your GTs, greater trochanteric. And they are areas that can tolerate a bit more weight than your ITs.

Justin: So the ITs are the bones that sit right under your bottom. So if you put your hands all the way under your bottom. 

Anthony: Ischial tuberosities. Ischial tuberosities. 

Justin: Yeah, ischial tuberosities. 

Anthony: I'm just, I'm just leaning. Ischial tuberosities. I'm just leaning in for that one. Go on, carry on. 

Justin: So if you put your hands under your bottom, if you're sitting right now, if you're driving, please don't do this. But if you feel those two little bony parts, that's your ischial tuberosities which are the highest, are very at risk areas of getting injuries because they point down and humans aren't meant to sit. And so that's a problem. So the way the JAY Fusion combats that is that it lifts you up from your femurs, your posterior side to the back-backside of your femurs. It loads that up through, through the foam to some hard foam that's a memory foam on top. So it loads your femurs, it loads your greater trochanter's on the sides of your butt, all those little ischial tuberosities. So it lifts you up and then, ideally, it kind of floats your ITs into, um, so there's no pressure going through them. In theory yeah, but you never really get no pressure onto the ITs. And so what they do put in there is gel and gel is really good for envelopment. So get into those nooks and crannies of your body to have an even distribution of pressure. So the goal is to reduce the peak points as much as possible.

Anthony: That's important. So bringing it back into that client. You met the client because this is actually an area that I'm pretty passionate about. It's a bit of a geeky side of mine. Um, I'm into bottoms, you know, shoot me. Um, no but seriously, um, coming back into that, what was the situation? You went in, how long- because these are the questions that I'd be asking, you know. What is, can you tell me your daily routine? So if the client's able to obviously cognitively answer, but if it's a carer assist or a family member, they're able to communicate.

Anthony: So what was the client's daily routine? What time were they getting up and when were they getting into the wheelchair? 

Justin: Um, uh, yeah, so he's in chair. 

Anthony: Sorry. Sorry, I'm testing you now. Sorry. 

Justin: Oh, yeah. That's alright. No, I thought you were just, uh, just telling people that! 

Justin: He's in the, so just, just for reference as well he's, uh, he is a single well, below knee amputation. But he's in the wheelchair all day, every day. So from time he wakes up, time he goes to bed, he does like a side transfer, like a one-legged side slide transfer kind of thing. 

Anthony: So is he regularly moving from wheelchair to something or is he in the wheelchair and that's him? Or is he, does he, does he have to go to the toilet? How does it, is it incontinent? 

Justin: Yeah, so he still transfers on, he transfers on and off to go to the toilet. He did that even while I was there when I was swapping over some other cushions. So he, he goes to the toilet independently. 

Anthony: Is he quite a strong lad? Can he push himself up and relieve pressure himself?

Justin: He, um, yeah he can, he can do, he's quite strong. Like I said, with the amputation, it's not so much an overall body weakness. And the chair he's in also has tilt. But from what the carer is telling me, the compliance is the issue. So he's been advised to tilt or to lean forward throughout the day to, so there's a few different ways you can offload pressure on your IT. So if you imagine you're sitting on your bottom right now, and there's not a lot of blood going into those peaky bony parts, how do we get blood to that area? We could, we could lean forward. And as you lean forward, that's a great one to get weight back, to get blood back into that area. You could lean side to side for a bit and they say generally for about a couple minutes, that's a good to get blood back into the area.

Anthony: For the listeners, Justin is currently moving side to side.

Justin: Rocking around!

Anthony: Rocking around, carry on sorry. 

Justin: And then you could also use power tilt. So you can tilt the chair back and push the weight, rather than being on the seated surface, a bit more to the back surface. You could add that even more by adding recline. So lot of things you can do to redistribute pressure.

Justin: You can never uh, relieve pressure, even though we say pressure relieve all the time. You don't really, you can't stop pressure, like gravity is going to do its thing and you can just redistribute it in different areas. So to redistribute pressure- 

Anthony: That's like a massive, massive thing for me that. I don't think we should call them pressure relief cushions.

Anthony: We should definitely call them pressure redistribution cushions. And I know it's a bit pedantic and I know it's like a bit of a play on words but it's true and if we can actually believe in what we're talking because the only thing that's going to relieve pressure is either removing yourself from that particular area, changing position, so having bed rest throughout the day, changing your seating position, i.e. changing it and then also actually improving somebody's overall position whilst they're in the chair. Right so, if we're looking at that young lad that we're talking about that you're discussing the issue with, because did you say he was 14? Am I wrong with that? Sorry. 

Justin: No, no, I don't know. I don't know his age. I think he's probably about 40, to be honest. 

Anthony: Oh, he's an old gentleman. Sorry. I don't know. 

Justin: Yeah, it's all right. 

Anthony: I don't why I have a child in my head. Um. I don't know. I don't know. 

Justin: But he, um, but I think whenever I see a sacral pressure area, that generally means that someone could, or they could be sliding forward because you're exposing-

Anthony: Posterior pelvic tilt is one of the main presentations for that particular breakdown. So that was one of my questions I was going to ask you, like, did we have to relook at his position? Was he sacrally sat? Posterior pelvic tilt? Is there anything we can do to improve that? 

Justin: Yeah, he wasn't when I was there because he can reposition himself. But from what the carer was saying, that all the gel goes to the front and when he comes back into the chair he doesn't reposition it. So if you imagine this gel pack that's sitting under your bottom, it is gel, so it's going to move. It's a fluid. it is in compartments. It's got three compartments, one for each butt cheek and one in the perineum. What's that area? Your groin? Yeah groin area, perineum or something. 

Anthony: Yeah, correct. 

Justin: Yeah, there you go. Uh, it's got a little a gel compartment there. So it stops the migration completely, but it does need to migrate in order to envelop your bottom. But the problem with that is that when you sit in it, the gel might move as you move.

Justin: And then when you come back to sit in the cushion, unless you give it a bit of a knead and massage the gel, there's not going to be any gel where the clients usually sit in. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Justin: And so that's, the carer is saying that was a bit of a problem. So we could resolve that in a few ways. We could resolve that by re-education, by encouraging more tilt, we can encourage pressure, um, uh, yeah, pressure, pressure, what do you call them? I've lost my word now. Anyway, some sort of pressure redistribution, like a lean forward or lean to the side. We could target his posterior tilt and encourage the use of a two point belt mounted in a 60 degree position. We could look at, you know, supporting his PSIS, we can do all these things.

Justin: But adding more supports was not, um, was seen as not going to be, not going to work. Cause they were like, he's not going to do this stuff. So, and the OT really wanted to go into an air cushion, into specifically a static air cushion. And the only two I have from that was the VARILITE Evolution and the Vicair Cushions. Do you work with those cushions? 

Anthony: Yeah, sure, yeah. I... change of, change of cushion is obviously really important to consider. I'm very much up for looking at changing the pelvic position first. So can we work with the cushion that we've currently got and just stabilise the pelvis in a slightly different way? Maybe offload the  ischials, um, slightly differently to maybe what we're currently doing. So I, is there maybe again, this is not specific to this particular client but if we were meeting a client for the first time that we hadn't prescribed a piece of equipment to, often seat depth could be incorrect. So that would show some, move somebody into posterior pelvic tilt, which might be an environmental reason rather than a clinical. The guy or the lady might not actually have a clinical reason why they're sitting in posterior tilt, other than the seat depth being incorrect, right? That's just an example. But, in this particular instance, I'm sure that's not the case. It seems like, you know, it's been a great prescription wheelchair, everything. And how long has the client had the wheelchair before this issue has, has arisen? Is it being quite sudden or is it, has he had it for quite some time?

Justin: I'm actually, to add more layers to the story, it's actually a rental chair at the moment, and I'm going to deliver his chair in a few weeks. But when we did set up the rental, he wasn't comfortable in his current cushion, so we're like all right let's get the cushion now, because we can do that in Australia. We can say all right, we'll order the cushion because it's a lower cost item, and we'll add that to the cost in your rental and then when your new chair comes in, we'll put that cushion onto your power chair. But yeah, so he's been on it for probably eight months now, so usually if something's not right. Yeah, so there wasn't any problems before then but I think it's just a compliance thing. But, so we'll review that. I've left the cushion, I've left a couple of cushions with him. I've left the VARILITE and the Vicair cushion. Have you used them before? 

Anthony: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh, both good cushions. I probably work more with prescriptive cushions rather than those, if I'm being honest.

Anthony: Although obviously you need to prescribe them, they're not made to measure as such. They're not made to order if you know what I mean, they're like straight off the, straight off. 

Justin: So when you say prescriptive, just to get terminology for the Australians and the UK people, say prescriptive cushions, what do you mean by prescriptive cushions?

Anthony: So I would be more looking at something that's more modular, something that you can move, that you can prescribe in terms of from your own prescription. So if I want to, give some abduction / adduction, which we spoke about in the previous episode. If I want to, if I've got a leg length discrepancy that I'm looking to accommodate, I can modularly either cut or if a cushion allows me to, move that. So like things like, the specs, I called it a configurer last time that it's a constructer cushion, or STX, those are excellent. But then, you know when I say old, you know, your JAY J2 balance fluid, that you, that you have, there's abilities to, as the old, to cut away and make it more prescriptive on your own. Different thigh guides, different abilities with you know, obliquity wedges etc.

Anthony: So, lots of options to prescribe an actual cushion to be more prescriptive, if that makes sense. So, don't get me wrong though. That's, I'm not doing a disservice to like something like a Vicair where you know, you can change the pods areas. You've got different abilities to, you know, accommodate an obliquity, not so much a rotation but maybe an obliquity, but I would maybe... I'm more of the opinion if you can prove that you can offset or manage the obliquity, manage the pelvis, you'll find that the pressure issue becomes a lot less prevalent because you've managed the pelvis better, therefore you're offloading the areas of concern better, rather than just putting somebody on a really good cushion but not actually managing the inherent problem, if that makes sense.

Anthony: And that's really my approach rather than, sometimes which we see, which again is not... I'm not trying to get carried away here, but I see a lot of people throwing cushions at a problem when actually we need to get a little bit deeper and actually manage the posture and improve the posture in the pelvis area particularly. And then you'll find that actually you probably don't need to invest as much money on a high end cushion as such. Don't get me wrong, there is always the need for air / water / gel, whatever you want to do. I just think that rather than going to that nth degree straight away, do a proper assessment, see what's happening, see what movement, see what's forcing that person into anterior or posterior tilt, manage the obliquities, manage the hip rotation. And a lot of that can be done through the use of the cushion, but also maybe matching up with the backrest as well. 

Justin: That's what we'll do. So next time I see him we'll do a full postural assessment, get more into it. I think it's also because he's on a rental chair. It's not, the rental chairs not perfectly set up. So hopefully by the time we get his new chair, which is in a few weeks, we can reassess it. I've left him some trial cushions for in the meantime. But yeah that's, that'll be an ongoing thing. I think the recommendation for now would- 

Anthony: Really good, um, really good problem that I think other people that are listening, other therapists or other wheelchair reps, whoever's listening to us, is probably coming across that quite a lot because I certainly have. One of the other things, just picking up on that, which I find, I don't know if you have, is we may get calls periodically saying, 'oh this person's developed a pressure issue, a pressure injury'. But actually when you get out to the problem, pressure is not actually the problem. It's been moisture a lot of the time. I don't know if you've seen that or had that. Yeah, shearing. And they can be overlooked or maybe the education around that area is understandably not... in there so that people can say, oh is this pressure or is this moisture?

Anthony: But that's where the TVN, the tissue viability nurse can come in, the district nurse can come in and they're often really good to work with at that particular moment because they can actually, give us a little bit more clinical guidance on how to manage whatever the issue is. Unfortunately, they're not maybe that qualified in terms of how to relieve pressure- 

Justin: They could find the problem, but that's what the OTs and ATPs can work out what the solution is. 

Anthony: Exactly. That's why teamwork makes the dream work for sure. 

Justin: Teamwork does. What about you, mate? Have you ever had a client get like a pressure injury while you're after a prescription?

Anthony: Yeah, no, we definitely did. In fact, one of the ones that rings true to me is, a really lovely elderly lady that we prescribed an in home chair to, a static chair, so a tilt in space chair, not a wheelchair. Um, really, really lovely lady, and we prescribed the chair, everything was great. She didn't have huge postural requirements, I'll be honest with you. I think the main concern at the time was the sitting time that I had. So we always recommend two to three hours really is the best sort of guideline without changing position. So i.e. if somebody's sitting in one position, in one chair, that's your really sort of max time that you should be then looking to either hoist up if they're non-weight bearing, transfer over to bed, have half an hour, an hour on bed rest, transfer into another, so go into the wheelchair, or if they're going to be toileting or whatever. They're always good methods, or just hoisting up slightly above the chair, have a few minutes just safely above, relieve some pressure if that person's not able to, and then come back down. So those are always good advice, to follow. But, this lady was stubborn, maybe a word? Uh, strong willed, strong minded, really lovely she was. Anyway, to cut a long story short, she, um, a few months later from getting the chair we got a call from the care home to say this lady's developed a pressure injury.

Anthony: So I was immediately like, wow okay, that's upsetting. So we went out, we did an assessment. I couldn't see anything that was obvious to me why she was developing that pressure injury. Everyone was saying that the, they were not sitting for long periods, her sitting position was excellent, her hydration was pretty good, her nutrition was pretty good. These are all the areas that we kind of ask, you know, immediately. So what happened was, when I was there after the first time, I changed a couple of things. Went back a couple of days later, just to sort of check in because I was really, it's not an area that we come across that often in terms of it being a main issue, but it was something that we really needed to work out why. What happened was when a couple of days later I went in, I said 'Oh' her name was Greta actually. So I said, 'Oh, where's Greta'? She said, 'Oh, she's at the hairdressers'. Which they had a little hairdressers in the nursing home. So I've gone in to the hairdressers, 'Hi Greta, how are you doing'? Anyway, she was sitting on a hairdressers chair okay?

Anthony: And she was having her colour done. Now... I'm not really into hair that much, but you know, uh, for any of the listeners that have their colour done, you have to sit out for quite a period of time to do that. So I was chatting to the hairdresser and I was thinking to myself, this lady's... we've spent quite a bit of time managing her posture. Her sitting position in this hairdresser's chair was pretty poor, right? She had a cushion behind. Um, it just what she was doing. Anyway I said 'How long have you been sitting out'? She said, 'Oh, I've been out for about an hour, son'. And I said, 'How long have you got'? And she said, 'Oh, this, that, and the other'. And I said, 'How often, by the way, you come into the hairdresser'? She said, 'Oh well, I don't get my colour done every time, but I come every week and I get a blow dry and blah, blah, blah'. 

Justin: So all these different alternate positions. 

Anthony: All the alarm bells are starting to ring. Because as you know, and as the listeners probably know, it doesn't take very long for a potential pressure injury to develop. It can be half an hour, an hour, right? It can really happen very, very quickly. 

Justin: And it wouldn't even be necessarily, you know like, you know obviously if there's ways to get your hair cut with the pressure cushion, or you could even just say, 'Hey look when your getting it cut every half an hour or so just lean over for about a minute or two and do the other side and do that'. Just have breaks. I'm sure there's plenty of time for breaks when you're getting your haircut. 

Anthony: Yeah, well, she could sit in the chair that we prescribed. I just think the education around the hairdresser didn't know. She just naturally, it was...

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: They were having to hoist-

Justin: She might not even want to. She might be like, oh, maybe it makes her feel good to sit in a hairdresser's chair. 

Anthony: Yeah. No, I know. 

Justin: Who knows? Like you know, you don't know these things, but that could be a factor. 

Anthony: Yeah. But I thought that was really interesting. So there was an environment that we couldn't work out. There was then, by chance, me going in and recognising that this was a problem. Sure enough, we sorted it and she was having, we never got a problem again because she didn't change into the hairdresser's chair. She stayed in the chair after and we're all good. So sometimes we just can't see the problem. Sometimes that research, that by chance situation arises and you work it out. But what was alarming to me and what was amazing to me was how quickly somebody can develop a pressure injury and I think that's something to recognise for sure.

Justin: Yeah. 

Anthony: For sure. So yeah, it's, it's something that, that we have, you know experiences with and hopefully it doesn't happen that often but really, really glad we've discussed that and, and hope that people have been able to get something from it. Cause I definitely have, just reminding myself and from what you're chatting about. So please do let us know how you get on and what happens with that gentleman when you revisit.

Justin: That was a bit, that was a, just a bit of a catch up, but maybe we again, we keep, foreshadowing all these episodes that are coming, but we could do a bit more of a structured episode on pressure injuries and I've got a great person who would speak to about it.

Anthony: Oh no, I've got a better one! 

Justin: You've got one as well. Alright, we can get them all on. 

Anthony: No, no, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. 

Justin: No, no, we'll get anyone on, but let's go through like an actual, like structured content because that was just me catching up about my day. And then already, already at time, already at time up! But mate next week we're going to definitely do just you because let's do one of your clients. And then, yeah cause it seems like we, you and I could just chat about each one of our clients for the whole session. 

Anthony: No, no, no, no. Tell me a little bit just before you go, like what's been happening man? What's happening in life? You keeping busy at work? 

Justin: Um, yeah keeping busy at work. We've had a bit of a funding hold up, you know, just with you know, I don't know if it works with you guys, peaks and troughs. So we've had a bit of a like, you know, all the industry, everyone in the industry has been a bit slower with deliveries, but quotes are still going. I guess trials are still getting done. Um, but now it's actually relieved a lot more. So I feel like there's a lot more approvals coming through now. So, I spent a lot of time doing re-measures and just making sure everything's all good. So that's the kind of stuff. 

Anthony: Not that you need to re-measure Justin! 

Justin: Nah, always re-measure.  I always say to people, if you're a therapist, if you're a therapist, um, and you're worried about a re-measure, don't be afraid to ask the rep that you know. Say, 'Hey, I want to do a re-measure'. Because so much has changed, like, they could have changed. They could have got bigger / smaller, they could have grown. There's so much that can be a factor. And sometimes it's not like you don't need to re-measure every single time. But one thing that's changed is you've changed. You've as a, as a therapist has changed as well. So you've grown, you've learned more things. So yeah. Don't be afraid to, you know- I know if I look back at some of my scripts, you know, I mean now I've been doing it for a while, but if I was looking at my scripts for my first 20 chairs... oh mate I'd look at them be like, 'oh, let's, let's not do that'. Like, you know you, you've had so much more experience since then. So make sure you give that experience to your client by, by doing a re-measure if you, if you're not confident. 

Anthony: I think that's such a good point. Honestly, genuinely, like we try and go back because I don't know what it's like over with you, but like I mean, obviously especially if we've got people that are getting like charity funding and things like that.

Anthony: I don't know if that is something that you guys, um... I'm sure people have- I don't know how good the charity network is over in, in Australia, but we're very lucky that we have some amazing charities here in the UK. Although um, parents will probably be screaming at the, at the screen right now saying, 'I'm waiting and I'm waiting and I'm waiting', and I totally get that and it isn't, nothing's quick enough. People can wait for a year here for the funding. I don't know what it's like in Australia, but that being the case, that backs up what you were saying, like if you've measured somebody and met them a year ago and done the assessment. Even if it's six months, three months, four months, five months it's long periods of time that you can't assume that person is going to be exactly the same as the time that you met them. Um, to go back and do a re-measure, re-quote, not re-quote, but just a review. I think it's crucial to making sure that you're actually going to get the right product again on the delivery, right? 

Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Don't be afraid to ask ATPs. It's in everyone's best interest. The last thing Anton wants, or what I want is to get to a delivery and something's wrong. Well then you have to put this cushion back into stock and order another one and here's a loan one, and there's too much, too much emails, too much noise, too much driving, just make sure you do it right. Prevention over treatment. 

Anthony: You know, that's a great way to finish. It's a great, great way. Um, listen mate, really good, really good to chat, really excited to chat to you next week. I'm sure we'll chat in between. But, on that note, what do people need to not forget to do, Justin? 

Justin: To follow, subscribe, comment, DM, send us a DM. I don't know if you can comment, depends on what you're commenting on. I think on Spotify you can comment and YouTube. If we're on Apple we'll do that as well. 

Anthony: Yeah, I mean, I'm more than happy for people to email me too. I'm really cool with emails, so you know, maybe we'll put each other's emails on the link below, so people can feel free to give us a shout out if they want to. But as I say guys, listen thanks for listening to Wheel Chat. It's been a really cool episode, really good to discuss one of Justin's current issues. Uh, although there's plenty of others that he may not want to discuss. Uh, no, I'm messing. 

Justin: Let's get into the personal stuff next time. 

Anthony: Feel free to click, subscribe and don't forget to check in, in our next podcast of Wheel Chat.

Justin: Thanks guys. Take care. Have a great day and have a great week. 

Anthony: Cheers. See ya, bye.