Creative Crossroads

Culinary Creativity with Chef Lucas Trahan

• Catherine Dutton & Ellyn Zinsmeister • Season 2 • Episode 4

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In this episode of Creative Crossroads, host Alan introduces esteemed chef Lucas Trahan, the chef de cuisine at Ever, a Michelin-star restaurant. Lucas shares his journey from a young boy cracking eggs with his mom to becoming a rising star pastry chef in 2021. He reflects on the pressures of high standards set by his family and mentors and how these experiences shaped his approach to creativity and excellence in the kitchen. Lucas discusses the importance of authenticity in his culinary creations and the balance between maintaining high standards and fostering a positive, respectful kitchen environment. He also delves into his creative process, which involves setting parameters and iterating on ideas until they fit his vision. Lucas emphasizes that creativity often stems from simple, humble beginnings and is refined through practice and dedication. The episode concludes with a lighthearted discussion on the flavor of creativity and a reflection on Lucas's personal and professional growth.

Find Luke on Instagram

Ever Restaurant in NY

00:00 Introduction to Lucas Trahan

00:46 Lucas's Early Inspirations

02:52 Finding Authenticity in Cooking

03:49 Working with Chef Duffy

07:07 Creative Process and Inspirations

11:59 Kitchen Dynamics and Leadership

18:33 Handling Creative Blocks

21:56 The Formula for Creativity

22:57 Balancing Creativity and Restraint

24:14 The Importance of Structure

25:14 Evaluating and Perfecting a Dish

28:17 Innovative Dishes and Cooperative Creativity

32:08 Evolving Creative Processes

33:13 Humility in Creativity

36:43 Advice to Younger Self

38:52 The Flavor of Creativity

39:50 Final Thoughts and Gratitude

Thanks for joining us at Creative Crossroads! Keep creating and we'll see you again soon!

Catherine Dutton:

Welcome back everybody to Creative Crossroads. I'm really excited today to introduce our guest Lucas Trahan he is a chef to cuisine at a restaurant called Ever. He was previously Ever's pastry chef and he also worked with chef Duffy at Grace from 2015 to 2017 and worked on the culinary teams of Fulton Market, kitchen and Pacific Standard Time. He attended the Art Institute of Dallas and was named a rising star pastry chef in 2021. Welcome, Luke. We're glad to have you.

Lucas Trahan:

Oh, thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

Catherine Dutton:

Yeah. So would you like to start off by telling us just you're a chef and how did you find that path into.

Lucas Trahan:

Um, well, uh, I think when I was younger. I don't know. I wanted to be a bunch of things like most kids. I wanted to be an astronaut, um, wanted to play sports. I wanted to act, I wanted to do all these different, things. But, I was lucky enough to realize that I was good at something at a young age and enjoyed at the same time. It actually comes back from when I was about, I'd say seven years old. I started making breakfast with my mom and it became a game to me to see, to learn how to crack eggs. I wanted to be able to crack an egg in one hand, and then I wanted to be able to crack an egg in my left hand. And then I wanted to be able to crack two eggs in one hand, and it just turned into like something that was fun and challenging for me.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

I think slowly over time the. The process of creating something and it being completely dependent upon you was cathartic for me as a kid.

Catherine Dutton:

Hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

a lot of things are like, I guess like the, the standards that I was held to, like by my dad for instance, were very not fun. It was like if you got anything less than an A, you were grounded for a long period of time. And anything less than perfect was a problem. And the expectation of always being excellent, it gets overwhelming and it gets exhausting and it gets tiring. And, the ability to engage in something that's completely dependent upon you and.

Catherine Dutton:

Hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

To not have all these other things get in the way of it. And it's just you and the object to see it from inception to creation to fruition. It is, it's just, it was cathartic as a kid.

Catherine Dutton:

Awesome. Yeah, those expectations can really. Weigh down on us a lot and the opportunity to be creative in a way that there are no expectations other than what you set for them, that it can feel kind of magical in a way.

Lucas Trahan:

Yeah. It's something that I ended up much later in life. There was an aha moment I probably went through where. I realized that the things I create are for me and not for anyone else. And suddenly I stopped worrying so much about whether or not something is good enough or whether or not something is perfect to anyone else except myself. I started cooking for myself and I found personally just, even just other people's opinions as well, like everything got better. It gained a voice, it gained an identity. It had a unique style to it. It had a message, and it also, mostly it came down to like, it had authenticity. It wasn't trying to make as many people happy as possible. It was trying to make one person happy, my target audience, which was me. And I think that authenticity means something to people,

Catherine Dutton:

mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

when it comes to a creative.

Catherine Dutton:

I find that so,

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

clearly being in a position that you're in, like in a Michelin star restaurant, being able to create like that, obviously, chef Duffy has seen your creativity and. Affirms it and has affirmed who you are and what you do.

Lucas Trahan:

He is

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

probably not every day. Right?

Lucas Trahan:

No, he is, uh, I think again, growing up the way that I did, I have a benefit of knowing how to work with him a little bit better than maybe some people do.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Sure.

Lucas Trahan:

Um, he is. In his, uh, I'd say in his like silver years, he's learning and growing just like we all do. It's inspiring to see, he's changing the way he interacts with people and the way that he runs his business as it grows, right? So it's, it's inspiring to watch and see and, and be reminded that, there is no, you're never done, right? There's always room to improve. But he's very much, for the longest time that I knew him, it was very much a no news is good news kind of guy. And as long as,'cause you have to understand like he's always watching and if he doesn't say no, then that means it's yes. But like if, if you don't have the ability to be confident in what you do and have that authenticity and integrity, then it'll start to weigh down on you because you're like, well, do you like it? Do you not like it?

Catherine Dutton:

Yeah.

Lucas Trahan:

It was hard at first, but I adapted pretty quickly to it.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

So you have a lot of freedom. Do you have a lot of freedom in what you create and what you make?

Lucas Trahan:

Oh, I can make anything I want as long as it is good. It makes sense.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

That's so cool.

Lucas Trahan:

It's hard to explain that. Yes, we have a, there's definitely a style and a voice that ever, um, that is. Chef Duffy's, but ultimately it is mostly my menu at this point. He's got a few things that he introduces that, um, he wants on there, and it's his restaurant. Obviously, they're gonna be there. But truly it's after working with him for so long, um, the things that I make already in that, that voice. Um, and it excites me because there are some things I don't do. Because it's like, I know that that's not, I guess I would say like, yeah, a chef is creative and all that kind of stuff, but honestly too, like when you're in the role of a chef to cuisine, your job is to kind of be the, I almost say like the prophet or the evangelist, right? You're the mouthpiece, right? You have to take the message, if you will, and then translate it. So that it makes sense. It carries through. It's, it's, it's true to what the source material is. And so I guess in that sense, there are some confines to what I make. But the way that he and I approach things and what we think is good and bad and what we enjoy and don't enjoy align in a lot of places. So I don't even really want to make the things that he thinks are dumb, You know what I mean?

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Yeah, that

Lucas Trahan:

We have a very, we have a very similar, uh, I, I would say palette and profile.

Catherine Dutton:

okay.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

That makes sense. That's why you work well together. Yeah. So where do you start like to, in creating a new dish, what's the inspiration? Does it start with the ingredients that are available? Does it start somewhere else?

Lucas Trahan:

I wish that was a clean answer. Um, it comes from anything,

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

I.

Lucas Trahan:

it really does. It stems from anywhere. Sometimes. It is an ingredient and you're like, man, I just wanna work with mangoes this summer. I'm gonna do something with mangoes. I don't know what, but that's what I want. Sometimes it's a combination of two things and you're like, man, it's this and that, and they go really well together and I wanna carry that. Sometimes it's a thought, or a memory trying to. Pay homage to something you experienced and you want to elevate it, and not be so tongue in cheek, right. I'm not the kind of person who're gonna be like, well this is mom's mac and cheese, you know, but I'll, if I approach a dish or course, or even an experience, is something more the lines of like, how can I capture the essence, the idea, the concept of mom's mac and cheese and create it in a way that isn't about meat. So I want other people to experience the same thing that I did. The safety, the deliciousness, the textures, everything that goes around it without being like, this is my mom's mac and cheese. Because when it comes to art for me, one thing that I don't like is when an artist puts too much of themselves into the product.

Catherine Dutton:

Hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

Which sounds silly because to me, like. There's nothing more transparent than art, right? You can't, art is nothing but the artist, but it's like, how do I say it? It's, it's also art is only art if the viewer can perceive it to have a deeper meaning.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm.

Lucas Trahan:

like paintings for instance, right? If an artist makes a painting and then they tell you, this is what it means and this is the only meaning that it has and this is what you're supposed to feel.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

It's not, not art, right, but it really limits the scope of what that art is capable of accomplishing. And so in that sense, if, yeah, in that sense, if I have a very, very personal connection to something. I'm not gonna make that connection known. It'll serve as deep inspiration. If someone wants to ask, I'll gladly explain the root of it.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

that's for me, right? That's my experience with it. Um, and it doesn't need to be pushed down anyone's throat. It's for someone to engage with and come to their own conclusions. And that's really to me, what art is about.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Do you get a lot of feedback on the things that you prepare?

Lucas Trahan:

Yeah, we actually do a lot of kitchen tours and so people come back and, it's fun to watch them because, you know, the way the restaurant operates, it's, it's very much, I don't wanna say separated, like the, the, the kitchen is the heartbeat of the restaurant. Back at Grace, it used to be, I used to call it a fishbowl, because the dining room was organized, so. There were rows of chairs all kind of angled 45 degrees at the table so that you were looking directly at this giant bright, open glass kitchen.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Ah.

Lucas Trahan:

Right? And the lights in the dining room were lower and the kitchen glowed. And it was like, it was beautiful, but it was like you came here, so you watched the kitchen ever, I believe is a perfect blend between the two where you. You hear the kitchen, right? We all call in you. There's a, there's a whole lot of like ethos behind the restaurant and how we operate and rules and standards and like the acting that we play. Like when, when someone, when a ticket's ordered in, right? The expediter calls like order in two and everyone calls back together like two. That way it's like all of a sudden there's like 10 voices all at once saying the exact same thing at the exact same pitch, and you can't hear it super clearly in the dining room. We have, again, a lot of things that make it very plush and comfortable, but you know that something's going on back there and you know that it has to be going on and it has to be going on well, because things keep coming up and rapid beautifully time per session with meticulous design and, and, and intention. And when people get back there, they're always surprised and blown away. Um. There's always like a wow, you know? And then you see them and they start to like, see the ingredients that they recognize and like, oh, that's what that is, or, oh, that's how they do that, or, oh, wow. You know? And it is, it's very rewarding. I like it mostly too for the cooks. They get to get feedback, and then I encourage like the client to engage with the cook, because I mean, like those are, I have the easiest job. I got the easiest job there. I walk around and I complain, and that's it. Like that's. my job at the end of the day.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

That's so great, but I'll bet the atmosphere in the kitchen really impacts your creativity and influences. Because you, I mean, you see a lot of movies and TV shows and it gets kind of ugly sometimes, and that would, that kind of negative atmosphere would kind of beat you down after a while.

Lucas Trahan:

I believe in, um, like, honestly like respect and positivity and, uh. And when I, when I came into the CDC role, I really did approach it, from like a gentle parenting perspective, right? Where it's like, Hey, it's okay. Mistakes happen, we'll get'em next time, this, that, and the other round. But then there was a, a dip inconsistency in quality. And, um, I think that that approach is the way, and it's the way that I would love to carry it. That puts the onus on each individual to have, integrity and standards that meet or exceed my own. I think that that's all well and good, but also in the same mentality, like if you're working with me or you're working at this level in any capacity, because, you know, all high-end Michelin restaurants carry the same weight and intensity. Like you're choosing to engage in a world where everything matters and mistakes are not allowed. Not only from a, you know, we're hunting for that third star mentality, right? It has to be perfect, but also from, I mean, people come in and they'll spend rent and on dinner, you know, like it, you walk out of ever spending well over a thousand dollars and it is. To me, it is beyond rude to the guest, to not afford them excellence and perfection, at least within the confines of what a human is capable of. And, so, you know, I think I, I approach it from a very coaching mentality, but at the same time too, I need them to understand that this has been a 17 year long journey for me. And right now where we're sitting, we're very close. When they just don't feel like doing it right because it, it is, it's negligence. Then I do have to let, like I take it personally, right? I've bled for this, I've worked for this, I've been through everything for this. And if they want to be great, they have to hold themselves to a higher standard on their own. And if they're not going to, then somebody has to. Which again, it's another benefit of my childhood and being with my dad, and the way he was. I don't want people to live in that world. But I think it's important to engage with it. Caring is cool and dedicating yourself to something is not embarrassing, you know? Of course I'm the boss. I know they talk behind my back and they say things right, because that's, that's, that's what it is, right? It's important. Like

Catherine Dutton:

the nature of being the boss, like, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

I'm the bad guy. Always will be. And that's fine. I have a wonderful partner at home that takes, you know, she loves me and she. I don't lose any sleep at night. If a cook thinks I'm an asshole, I don't care. Um, because the one thing that I would care about is if they were like, he's a fraud. he's a hack. He's a hypocrite. He doesn't hold himself to the same standards that he holds us to. He is a liar. He's in it for the show. It's all fake and pretend that is what would, that's what would keep me up at night is that integrity. And so, yeah, I do. Sometimes I raise my voice, I get angry, because, you know, maybe the same mistake has happened five times and it's like, figure it out at some point. Like you have to be like, do you want to be here or not? And for me, the creative side, a lot of it stems from this just unrelenting passion where it's like three stars or die. Like it's, there is no other option. There is no plan B.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

I mean, there is secretly, right?

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

You wanna share that with us? The secret.

Lucas Trahan:

oh, the secret to plan B is you, you have to, in my opinion, at least in a creative role that is, like leadership driven, where you have a team that has to execute, you have to let people fail, and you have to consciously let it go wrong. You can't. Helicopter. You can't follow them all day. You can't just carry everything. You have to let them fail. You have to let them know they fail. You have to really push them to fix it themselves, but you already have to have the solution ready so that once they exhaust their attempt, we still can't afford failure. Right. So it's not allowed, but you have to let it happen. That's really like my secret, I've found, and sometimes it works, most of the time it works, but, it demands a lot out of leadership, I do think that that's what creates better employees, better cooks and inspires them to know that mistakes happen. And it's more about the being solution oriented, right? Like.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

I see the sauce is like, I get it. I know. Like I, I'm aware something's wrong. So what are we gonna do? Like it has happened. It has already happened. Whether it was on purpose, whether it was an accident, it doesn't matter. To me. That's really, it doesn't matter. Let's look at what it is. It's wrong. So how are we gonna fix it? Is it adjustable? Can we remedy the situation? Or instead of wasting time panicking, do we just throw it out? Start over. Whatever it is, let's make a decision. Let's be confident in that decision and let's move forward together.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

So yeah, tensions get high, but at the end of the day, I hope that I create an environment where like, I am upset because I believe in you and you're letting me and yourself down is what

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

That's

Lucas Trahan:

I try to bring.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Yeah. So when you get home, do you cook?

Lucas Trahan:

I meal prep on the weekends.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

All right.

Lucas Trahan:

Recently I got into it. My partner, she's helped me really kind of reevaluate my health and what I do in life and my own diet at home because, I don't like cooking at home. It's, you know, burnout is real. And the last thing I wanna do after a long day is come home and do more of it. But, she's really helped me a lot, on the weekends. And I'll do a lot of meal prepping and we'll just plan out a couple meals for the week. Do it so that there's just, either it's just warming something up or just a finishing thing at the end of the night so we can eat a fresh, healthy meal.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

That's

Catherine Dutton:

That makes sense.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

That's good. So what happens when you run out of ideas like you need to be constantly coming up with new menu items or new ideas and new things. What do you do when, when you burn out or when you run dry?

Lucas Trahan:

how do I say this?

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Do you not burn

Lucas Trahan:

Oh, no, no, no, no. There's, there's some times where I don't have any ideas. Things are hard. I might be in like a, I be going through a state of depression, I might be exhausted, understaffed, life's getting in the way, things like that. But then, I don't know, there's this other side to it where it's like nobody cares. Like nobody cares about your problems. At the end of the day, and I branded and sold myself as this person that is capable, and so I don't get to not be capable. So whenever that does happen, you just, I don't know, you throw shit at the wall until it sticks. You just keep trying. Keep going, keep pushing. Try something new. Just do something, anything. Just keep moving. And eventually in one moment, you'll find one thing that you'll latch onto and be like, actually, I can do something with this. And then sometimes that's all you need, especially when I'm in a creative block like that. I just need one, just one little idea, one little victory in that moment. And I'm like, oh, there it is. Now I see it. And even sometimes I'm working on a dish. And I'm stuck on it. I'm like, it's missing something. I just don't know what it is, but I'm not happy. There's been multiple times where it's like, sometimes you'll just wake up at like four in the morning and in the middle of the night and I'll, I'll shake my partner awake and I'll just be like, I'm sorry, but I need to tell you this right now before it disappears into Ether. it's like you just wake up and you're like, oh, I've got it. That's it. That's it. I'm gonna completely throw everything out and do this instead. I figured it out.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

To hear you say that because that's kind of how I create. I often wake up out of a deep sleep with like, oh, you know, like in my, in my brain, I'm calculating dimensions for a quilt or, or something, you know? Yeah. And I'll jump out of bed and run and get a sketchbook and just like, I gotta get this down because it'll be gone in the morning.

Lucas Trahan:

exactly. There's something that's so important about that. I think that, again, kinda like what you mentioned about like restaurants and movies and like how they portray the intensity and the negativity and all that kind of stuff. I think that's something about the creative life as well. You watch movies about artists and stuff and there's this beautiful montage of them like pondering and painting and scratching out you know what I mean? As if it's some organic linear journey. Sometimes you have the idea and it's just there. Every bit of it, every piece of it falls into place perfectly. And sometimes you're looking at a bunch of puzzle pieces that don't fit and you know, that don't fit, but they have to because you can see it. You just don't know how it works. And I think that there's something that there is to be said about that, that like you have to capitalize on that. There is some insanity in creation and you have to like embrace it.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

There's our quote right there. There's some insanity and creation.

Catherine Dutton:

I like that very

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

I like that a lot. Yeah.

Catherine Dutton:

Can you walk us through what it looks like for you to, as you're developing a menu or a dish, how do you approach that?

Lucas Trahan:

So I think at this point in my career, I do have a formula, that I really adhere to. Something I actually, I've learned from, chef Duffy.'Cause it is a great, I would say like base, right? Pick three flavors you wanna work with

Catherine Dutton:

Okay.

Lucas Trahan:

and then go from there. Because I think one of the biggest enemies of creatives is creativity.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

because you can do whatever you want. There are no rules, right? We write the rules. And the ability to, right? Everyone says, think outside the box. Think outside the box. And I think that that's, important for young people to hear that, to understand that like you do, like don't think, don't, don't conform, right? Like, give yourself the freedom to ask why. Question things, challenge the norms, all that kind of stuff. But as I've progressed and as I, there's an expectation for the product that I deliver, again, you don't get the luxury to be like, oh, that one didn't really pan out. Oh, well, you know, um, you have to have a formula. Yeah, exactly right. Like especially, you know, when you're working with an expensive product.

Catherine Dutton:

Yeah.

Lucas Trahan:

Right. Like at least with food in a way, it's a little bit more, uh, forgiving because you need tons of that product ad nauseum to have a restaurant anyways. But, you know, I, I, I liken it to like a sculptor, right? That big old hunk of marble, you don't get to mess up. You know, like if you're working on it and then you accidentally break the finger off at the very end, like that's. Yikes, man.

Catherine Dutton:

Yeah.

Lucas Trahan:

you know, um, I think as an artist we all need to understand those same concepts and respect the ingredients that we're working with. And no matter how cheap or expensive they are, wasting is not a luxury that we can ever afford. I guess another, another line that like I have learned over the years is that like the mark of mastery is restraint. People who are great at something do it with less. And so it's not so much thinking outside of the box, but it's creating the own box that you want to exist in. And you need to provide confines for your creativity. Otherwise you'll never finish a product and. You'll have a thousand pretty cool, almost done ideas nothing to show for it. you have to like really give yourself a box. You have to work inside of your own box, because otherwise it is in infinity is a very intimidating thing. I don't know if anyone like sits down and tries to like think about what that concept is, but it is obviously so impossibly large that you can't even begin to. Approach it. And that's really what creativity is, right? There's no confines there. You can do whatever you want. So you have to make a box for yourself to operate in, otherwise you simply will just keep going. Right? So that's really the, the, the, the key is having my formulas like the three ingredients. And then once you start messing around with the idea, I have a, like, I guess I would say like a background rubric. Right. What's, what's the mouth feel? What's the texture? What's the temperature? What's the intended purpose? Where does it sit in a menu? What am I trying to accomplish with this? And is it good, really? And those are basically like the, the criteria that, like I look at it by, because there's no definition of form when it comes to Michelin. I serve things on pieces of driftwood and I serve things on China. There's finger food, there's steak, you know, there's soup. There's experience moments, right? Where it's like this is a bubbling thing that's in front of you that you have to engage with. There is the tactile moment of like, how does the guest engage with this? How does the silverware feel in their hands? What does the Civil War sound like on that certain piece of China? How. How do we engage with that? How is that gonna be when I've health people sitting around'em are all doing the same thing? Is that annoying? Eh, that kind of grates me a little bit. Maybe we don't do that. Maybe it's a different vessel that we need to use. How does it feel in the hand? Is it, are you, is it intended to be picked up? Is it intended to be viewed? It's really like little by little building that box that I'm gonna work inside of, in order to have a completed idea.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

So that's your structure.

Lucas Trahan:

Yeah,

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

You need some structure to work with them.

Lucas Trahan:

yeah. That's a really good way to explain everything I said in one word. That's a better way to do it.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

No, I like your explanation. No, your explanation was great. I appreciate that.

Catherine Dutton:

Yeah.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

How do you know. When a dish is, is perfected, is ready, is finished, do you, how do you know when to stop when you meet? All those criteria, I guess.

Lucas Trahan:

That's been the hardest one. Honestly. That's the hardest one. But I need to look at it from a sense of like, yeah, this has checked all those boxes. I could add more, but at what point is that just useless fluff, like, diminishing returns. And then, you know, sometimes it's like I have a couple really good ideas and I'm like, well, why don't I just save those ideas for another thing? Like what I'm not trying to like. Waste all my in one go. Right? I also have to have the realistic side of it to be like, well, we need some longevity here. You know, like Apple, you know, whatever big companies, you gotta respect'em, right? They only release minute upgrades each time. If they released their latest version of everything every year, we wouldn't have a phone every year to sell. So they have to have a product to sell. So they have to innovate, but then only release some of that innovation at a time because they need to. Maintain the illusion that they are never not coming up with something new, you know?

Catherine Dutton:

I like that idea.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Makes sense.

Catherine Dutton:

Can you tell us about a dish that has really excited you?

Lucas Trahan:

I think the best way to describe that, it's not so much recent, but it's this idea of like, cooperative creativity.

Catherine Dutton:

Okay.

Lucas Trahan:

When I first took over as a pastry chef at ever, I wanted to do beets and cheese for a dessert course. Um, and this is, this is all just a great lesson for me, right. But, uh, it really leads into everything I was just kind of saying, but. I had all these things and all these ingredients, and then I ended up make, like, we ended up making cream cheese, ice cream. And I was like, how do I just get these things together? And um, it was a morning and Dey and I were working together and he just, like, literally it was, it was we, I like put ice cream in the bowl and I tried to dust it and everything. I was like, I don't because I beep powder. I was like, I don't know how to make this look good. And he was like, and then he just kinda looked at me and he was like, well, you get to decide what's good, right? He's like, if you don't think it looks good, then like, make it look good. Like, what? How do you, what do you want? And I was like, oh, damn. It's that easy, isn't it? Like, it's really that easy. And then he just took a spoon and smashed it instead. And all of a sudden it was beautiful. And I was like, okay, actually I hate you again. I was like, how did you just effortlessly do that? But you know, that's why we seek to, work under talented people because we learned from them. But, I think that one really sticks out to me, because it was, when I, when I really do think about like things that made'em really proud of that one. Was it, it was literally, it was bee powder and cream cheese, ice cream. That's it. And it's one of the most divine things I've ever had ever. It's so good.

Catherine Dutton:

How did you come up with that idea of like beets and cream cheese together?

Lucas Trahan:

I mean, I don't know. Uh, it's, it's, I guess I can, I'll also in like my creative process, right? Like, I like to approach food, from a very approachable way. I never wanna be one of those chefs that makes weird food for the sake of it, right? I want it to be relatable. I want it to be approachable. I want it to be. Challenging, thought provoking, maybe potentially generate discourse, but not necessarily like, challenge people in their definition of what food is. You know, there's some of these restaurants out there where they're like rabbit brains and fried dragonflies and, and like, why? You know, it's one thing if it's like, you know, a cultural, staple and that's your history and background and you wanna showcase that. Like in Latin cuisine, you know, the use of insects, crickets, scorpions, things like that. At least it has like a cultural implication. And then you're like, well, I mean this has been a delicacy for thousands of years, right? And then you go, you look at other chefs that are like, no, I'm gonna serve live cuttlefish for no reason other than I think it's weird, you know, and you're like, that's stupid. That's really dumb. Um, but I want it to be approachable. So I really stick to simple common flavors. And so in that space of, you know, beets and cheese, like, I don't know if, if you have the opportunity, but you should go to any, I would say hipster restaurant in like the springtime and everyone will have a beet and barta salad, beets, barta and mint done. Right? And so you start to then. know the rules of engagement. So now you can break the rules and you say, okay, beets, and then what? Something that's fatty and creamy and UNC anxious, okay, in this case it's burrata, but what else fits that role, you know, in the world of cheese? Well, anything really. So then you start to break it down and you start to say, okay, so beets and cheese, well, how do I, you know? And then it just turns into, well, cream cheese, ice cream, lemon, vanilla beets have a lot of natural sugar in them.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm.

Lucas Trahan:

There's a savoriness there, there's a complexity of flavor, things like that.

Catherine Dutton:

That's really cool.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Do you feel like your process is still evolving or have you locked in and this is how you're gonna create for the rest of your life?

Lucas Trahan:

it is definitely still evolving. I learn new things about what I think, and I grow in my opinions of things every single day, every single. Thing that I create, I learn something new. And then sometimes I also like to revisit past ideas that I've had because it's like, well, how can I do that better knowing what I know now? Right? How do I make this, I don't know, better might not be the right word, but how do I make this fit my current voice? How do I make this true to my current self? Because this exists in the ether is something I've made, but like I don't even agree with it anymore. I don't believe in that principle anymore. So how do I make it relevant to current me? Um, no. I will always be evolving and growing. At least I hope. I think the day that I look someone in the eyes and say that I figured it out, um, I think is the day that someone should call me a liar personally, at least.

Catherine Dutton:

Has there been a specific moment that you can think of that shifted for you how you see creativity in food?

Lucas Trahan:

Um, yeah. Yeah. Um, yes. Uh, when I was still in Dallas, I was working at a place called, FT 33.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

And, I tried this one thing, it was on the menu. I just started, I was young, I was like 20, I think I was 20 at the time. And it was just chard, pini with lemon juice and the targa over the top, which is like a cured, fish product. And it, I don't know how it changed, it changed everything on how I viewed food because. It was humble, right? Like rapini is just, broccoli, right? It's just a kind of broccoli and it was just cooked on open fire on a grill and just some lemon juice on it, and then a cured fish product. That's like, it's, it's a undesirable portion of the fish at the end of the day that's cured and used and, and, you know, a lot of, a lot of food has very humble origins. For sustenance and need. Right? So I had this thing that it was really just humble. It was simple, humble, um, it wasn't claiming to be anything that it wasn't, and yet it was delicious and it was life-changing. And it hit me with this idea that like, creativity is not. That creative sometimes, you know, sometimes it is, it's humble. You don't need expensive things to be good at something you don't need. I don't know. It's, it's, it changed my life in a lot of ways. It taught me how to be a better partner. As I've grown, I've applied those same concepts to a lot of things in life. You know, uh, you want a strong, solid foundation. You want. Trustworthiness. You want a rock hard, you know, partner. Well, it's not grand acts of kindness and love, right? Like, yeah, those are great. Sure. And they're memorable. But it's, it's showing up daily. It's the maintenance, it's the small acts here and there at every single step that like, make something real. And so it taught me like this concept of creativity is not some magical mind blowing. Aha moment, per se. Right? It was humble, it was practice, it was dedication. It was, you know, like a creative is only as creative as they know.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

I might be a creative, but I can't draw. I don't know how to draw. I'm terrible at it. I don't have the skill for it. I never went to school for it. I don't practice it, so I cannot ever bring to life what I see in my head. I try. But then again, I also don't dedicate myself in practice, so how could I be good at it?

Catherine Dutton:

Right.

Lucas Trahan:

And that's, that to me was what that rapini was. It was like, this is the definition of humility and knowing that like, it just, this is what it takes. This, to me, this is excellence. This is perfection. It's not over designed, it's not over complicated. It's humble. And it's just honest.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

So.

Catherine Dutton:

sounds,

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

if Luke today could go back and talk to that 20-year-old newly minted chef, what, what would you tell him?

Lucas Trahan:

Luke is a shithead man.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

Um. I don't know. I, I, I've been asked that question like, you know, even along the lines of like, what would you tell younger chefs? Like what piece of advice would you give? You know, anyone. And honestly, it's kind of like, just shut up and listen, you know, probably like talk less. But again, I got where I am by making gobs of mistakes, know? Um. I got where I am today. Honestly, I find a lot of my dedication and fortitude and courage and strength come from, a drug addiction in my past. And they come from all these places where, I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't go back and change it. I wouldn't tell young Luke like, Hey, don't go to that party. You know, because who I am today would be not me.

Catherine Dutton:

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

So it's hard. I've always tried to find an answer to that question and like, I think, yeah, on the surface, check your ego. The sooner you throw that out the door, the better you'll be. But that has to be an organic choice you make as an individual. Something in life has to humble you in whatever form it is, and you have to realize that that's not what it's about. But that has to come on your own terms a little bit. So I don't know. I'd probably just tell him some random interesting fact that doesn't really apply to anything, but it's kind of vague a little bit, you know, like

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Sounds

Catherine Dutton:

him guessing a little bit.

Lucas Trahan:

yeah. You know, maybe like a Bob Ross type thing, you know? If you can relate something vague enough to a simple concept one day, someone will have a light bulb moment about it, you know?

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Love

Catherine Dutton:

I love it. I love that.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

That's great.

Catherine Dutton:

So I have a silly, bizarre question just to kind of wrap us up today. I have loved what you have said about creativity and about thinking about it. I like the idea of giving ourselves parameters, but also the beauty and the simplicity of things that we make. Okay. But my silly question is, if creativity had a flavor, what would it taste like to you?

Lucas Trahan:

It would probably be very sour

Catherine Dutton:

Hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

and very astringent. I don't think it would be something that people would enjoy to eat.

Catherine Dutton:

Hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

I think it would be an acquired taste,

Catherine Dutton:

Ah, I like that. Okay.

Lucas Trahan:

you know? You know what I mean? Like, you know, you look, dad, how can you drink that? It's scotch, it's disgusting, goes, oh, you wouldn't understand, right?

Catherine Dutton:

Yeah.

Lucas Trahan:

that is how I see it. It's something that it looks, it probably looks really cool. It's a really beautiful color. You know? It looks juicy. But it doesn't taste good.

Catherine Dutton:

Hmm.

Lucas Trahan:

'cause I think to me, the reward of creativity is the struggle.

Catherine Dutton:

Wow. I love that.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

That's pretty cool.

Catherine Dutton:

That's pretty cool. Well, I think that's a beautiful place for us to end our conversation today actually.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

It's been great.

Catherine Dutton:

I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today

Lucas Trahan:

Oh, I am thrilled and honored and thank you for reaching out. And Alan, thank you too for thinking about me. It's a beautiful full circle moment to get to talk to you in this capacity.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

we didn't really get into this, but uh, yeah, Luke's been part of my life since he was about 10 years old. So it, it's great to see you and I love seeing your success and seeing pictures of your creations online and just, just hearing about it. It's wonderful.

Lucas Trahan:

Well, of course. Hopefully I can, hopefully we get, you know, more growth in the future and I only get better, but we'll see.

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

Feel free to drop by my house and cook for me anytime you're in town.

Lucas Trahan:

All right.

Catherine Dutton:

Well, thank you so

Ellyn Zinsmeister:

you.

Lucas Trahan:

thank you so much. It was an honor. Appreciate it.

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Catherine Dutton

Co-host
Head Shot

Ellyn Zinsmeister

Co-host