Episode 2: Former DEA Agent Rocky Herron

Episode Summary:
In this episode of Inspire Shasta, we sit down with Rocky Herron, a former DEA agent with 32 years of experience. Rocky shares his journey, from chasing drug traffickers on the Mexican border to discovering the opioid epidemic and its impact on young people. He discusses the importance of drug prevention education and how he started his own initiative to educate kids in schools.

Key Points:
Rocky's DEA career: Rocky spent 32 years as a DEA agent, working in San Diego and South America.
The opioid epidemic: He noticed a surge in young people addicted to oxycontin and was shocked by the backgrounds of those involved.
The lack of drug education: Rocky realized that many kids were not receiving any drug prevention education in schools, even after DARE programs were removed.
Starting his own initiative: He began teaching drug prevention classes to his own kids and their friends, which eventually led to more schools inviting him to speak.

Additional Notes:
Rocky's story highlights the need for comprehensive drug education in schools.
His personal experience working in the DEA provides valuable insights into the opioid crisis.
The episode is inspiring and informative, offering listeners a better understanding of the issue and potential solutions.

Possible Discussion Questions:
What can parents and educators do to help prevent drug abuse among young people?
How can we address the stigma surrounding drug addiction and encourage individuals to seek help?
What are the long-term consequences of drug addiction, and how can we support those affected?

Transcript

Inspire Shasta, Episode 2: Rocky Herron

Speaker: [00:00:00] Well, Rocky, welcome back to Shasta County. Um, for those of you who are joining us, we have Rocky Herron joining the program.

He's a former DEA agent with 32 years of experience in the DEA. And so, Rocky, we would love for you to just give us an overview of your life leading up until this point. 

Speaker 3: All right. Well, thank you. It feels good to be back in Shasta. So yeah, I was a DEA agent. I started at 23 and I worked almost 32 years chasing drug traffickers, mostly in San Diego with the Mexican border and then six years in South America, chasing cocaine traffickers down in Bolivia. Um, but 17 years ago while I was doing my investigations I began to arrest a large number of kids in San Diego who'd gotten addicted to oxycontin And what shocked me was these kids we were arresting for dealing the drug were not our traditional drug dealing population.

These are kids from our best schools and our best families. And I was always kind of an inquisitive DEA agent. I wanted to understand why. So I would drive these kids to jail and on the way to jail I'd ask them questions like, you know, you had everything in front of you. What made you think smoking a piece [00:01:00] of pill on a, a pill on a piece of foil was a smart decision?

And they all started crying. And they all said, man, maybe if somebody would have warned me I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have started. And at the time I didn't think anybody would listen. I didn't think kids would listen, but then I very quickly after that discovered my own kids were not getting any drug prevention education at school.

DARE was driven out of the schools. Um, I'm not a DARE defender, but what most people don't understand, when DARE was driven out, it wasn't replaced. And I didn't understand that. But I realized that my own kids weren't getting any drug prevention education and these young kids I was arresting who destroyed their lives hadn't gotten any.

And I went to the schools and I started saying, look, can I come in and teach the kids, you know, something basic. So that's how it started for my own kids and their friends. And, uh, but by word of mouth, I got more invitations and more invitations. And by the end of my DEA career three years ago, it was essentially my full time job, uh, going into schools in San Diego and around the world, just sharing with kids what I lived and what I learned as a DEA agent.

So that's what brings me back to Shasta. This is my third school year [00:02:00] to be here and I'm very, very happy to be here with your kids and looking forward to a pretty busy week of activities. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, excited to have you back and excited to have you on the Inspire Shasta podcast. So, um, before we get into the bulk of your incredible work, um, we want to just kick something off with a fun question. Um, this question we ask every guest on the Inspire podcast. Um, if you could go back to any grade in school for one day, which would it be and why?

Speaker 3: Oh, that's pretty easy for me. It's fifth grade. Mrs. Kunkel, um, just the most engaging teacher I ever had in school. Um, I had a best friend in fifth grade and we just loved coming to class and we were troublemakers but we were really good students and Mrs. Kunkel had the confidence to let us be you know, little troublemakers and get away with a certain amount of shenanigans.

Uh, but she just made school completely enjoyable and she made it enjoyable for every student in the class and uh, I don't think I ever quite enjoyed school as much after that. 

Speaker 2: Love that. Sounds like she built a relationship with the kiddos in her classroom. 

Speaker 3: Absolutely did. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very important.

What [00:03:00] accomplishments are you most proud of in your career? 

Speaker 3: In my investigative career or my school teaching career? 

Speaker 2: Both. 

Speaker 3: So in my DEA career, I had the good fortune to do a large number of different things, uh, different types of investigations and, but I think the, the years that mattered most to me were 2007 to 2017 and I was assigned to, um, DEA's Prescription Drug Abuse Investigations Unit.

And I took the transfer to get away from a horrible boss. Uh, so I like begged for a transfer away from this bad boss and they put me in this unit investigating pill crime and it was not a sexy place to go at the time. You know, the no self respecting DEA agent wanted to investigate pills. It was all about cocaine and heroin and methamphetamine.

But when I got in that unit, I discovered how bad the prescription drug abuse problem was. And this is in San Diego, 2007. We were still Vicodin and Percocet abuse, massive amounts, and Oxycontin hadn't quite hit yet. [00:04:00] But I was shocked to learn how big the prescription drug abuse problem was and the toll it was taking on society.

And then very quickly after that, Oxycontin hit San Diego. But in those six, in those ten years I was there, I did six investigations on doctors. And I ended up arresting and convicting six doctors for bad prescribing. And it's funny because of all the major drug traffickers that I investigated and, and, and prosecuted, I think those six doctors are the best cases for me.

Because they were living large. 

Speaker 4: They were going to work 

Speaker 3: as a doctor. They were, they were jeopardizing the safety of their patients for, for money for prescriptions, uh, sex for prescriptions, stolen items for prescriptions. Really, really bad people. And when you, when you arrest a drug dealer and you catch him with the drugs, it's kind of game over, right?

If I've collected the videos and the evidence, there's not a whole lot of argument to challenge why you had the drugs. But when you try to arrest a physician for illegal prescribing, they don't want to go to jail. And they hire the best defense attorneys and they challenge you. And you're, Agent Herron, you're saying this prescription is illegal.

I say it's legal. So you have to think at a whole higher [00:05:00] level. So even though these cases aren't the most sexy cases in DEA, they're some of the most complicated to convict a doctor. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. I would imagine that they feel like they're a little above the law in those situations. Oh, not a 

Speaker 3: little. They think they're, they're so used to it, they get away with it, and they think they're above the law.

They really do. And, uh, and they're hurting people here. Right? And, and today when you're arresting an international drug trafficking organization, their people are replaceable. Right, but you take a doctor out of a community, you have actually made a difference, a beneficial difference in that community. Of course, the drug seeking patients then look for other doctors, um, but I felt like I actually was making a difference, you know, during those years.

Speaker 2: And how about the accomplishments in the second part of your career, working in schools? 

Speaker 3: This is amazing. Um, I was giving a talk to, I speak Spanish, I teach in Spanish, and I was giving a talk to a group of immigrants in San Diego about two years ago. And, uh, these poor families come here from these other countries, right?

Because this is the land of opportunity for them. And they come from places where drug use isn't rampant, where it's just not part of the culture. [00:06:00] And their kids go to school in our schools, and within 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, their kids, too many of them, are in the worst part of our culture. And these families are completely unprepared.

So I was educating the families and warning them, and this young man stood up, and in Spanish, you know, cheered what I was doing, but he came up afterwards and gave me a big hug. And he said, Rocky, that thing you did for 32 years, that was your training. You finally found your real career here. So it is actually the ability I have, and I don't quite understand why, but it's my ability to stand in front of an audience of kids and they listen to me.

And that really is sort of the quality of difference that the schools and the school systems that support me, when they see me interacting with the kids, their reaction is, Oh my God, the kids actually listen to you. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Because unfortunately, too many of the people that are trying to teach drug prevention.

for whatever reason, aren't capturing the attention of the kids. And, uh, I'm getting older, I'm 57, and I don't quite know how long I'm going to do this, but my attitude is, as long as society's not doing it, this drug prevention education, in a meaningful way, and as long as [00:07:00] kids keep listening to me, then I'm going to keep standing up in front of them, trying to get some of them to listen.

And I've talked to a quarter million kids now. And I'm very proud of that. 

Speaker: Quarter of a million kids. It's pretty incredible. It's pretty incredible. Thank you. Yeah. And I can speak from our experience in the show in Shasta County and going into schools all throughout the school year. And then we get them in the civic or we get them in the cascade.

And then immediately when you start talking, it's whoosh. And then you've got your captive audience. And I think it's pretty incredible gift that you have. 

Speaker 3: No, thank you. Thank you. And I, people ask me, you know, I people that challenge what I do and a lot of people criticize it. And they'll ask me, how many kids do you think you're reaching?

I don't know. Right? And I don't know what the question really means because every single child that sits through one of my assemblies comes away better informed. Whether I changed their attitude or not about using drugs, at least I gave them more information about the risks of it. But in San Diego where I live, some of the middle schools are bringing me back every year to talk to all of the kids.

And last fall, I returned to six middle schools and six different kids came [00:08:00] up to me, hugging me and thanking me. And they said, last year when you came to my school, I was drinking, I was smoking, I was doing whatever, and I listened to you and I stopped. I get to give those kids a giant hug. So that's six out of 250, 

Speaker 5: 000.

Right. 

Speaker 3: That I know. Right? Now, I'd like to think there's more, maybe, hopefully there's more, but honestly, I really mean this, if it's just six, I'll take it, because I have lived and I've seen, you know, the damage that one person causes. And in the DEA, we do not, to be clear, in the DEA, we do not go after drug users.

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: But the nature of the work is, when you're chasing drug traffickers, you end up seeing, over and over and over and over again, the destruction that drug use causes in our families, in our schools, our communities, our country, and around the world. Yeah. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Having the opportunity to watch you speak, um, and be part of these events that you've done in our county in the past, you can tell the impact by the amount of students that want to talk to you afterwards.

It's not just the silence in the room when you're up there and the engagement, um, it's the line of kiddos that want to connect with you after and the impact that you're making is really, really valuable. 

Speaker 3: Thank you. No, I, that [00:09:00] is that very direct feedback and many of those kids, uh, the ones that do come talk to me after my assemblies.

are kids who've been damaged and hurt by, by drug use around them and alcohol abuse around them. And so I have three goals and when I'm in front of a group of kids, I believe I have three, three objectives. I want the kids who've never used to stick with that and not start. I'm hoping that the kids who are using or who have dabbled will reconsider, you know, back up or maybe go no further down into the more dangerous drugs that exist today.

And I want the kids that have been damaged by somebody else's substance abuse to feel heard and understood. And I get a chance to say, look at me, look at me. It's not your fault. Right. And don't make what happened to you. Don't make that your future. And those are often the kids that come up and want to share some terribly sad story with me and get a hug.

And I have a few seconds to give them some kind of motivational message and I try my best. 

Speaker: And I think when you say the line, it's not your fault, it can be [00:10:00] felt in the room, which is a really, Cool thing to experience when you have 900, 700 students in there all at once. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, and, and it's interesting.

I've gone into small towns. I've taught all over the U. S. now. I've gone into small towns and, um, in some of the really small schools, I'll mention to the staff or to the sheriff that I'm going to do this. And they watch the kids that they know are at risk. And they said they see those kids actually physically jolt.

When I stand up and say, look at me, it's not your fault. Those kids actually jolt because that's just how the child mind works. They, they completely internalize that the abuse and neglect is their fault. I had a, I was at a middle school in San Diego recently, a very nice neighborhood, and 15 minutes after I finished, a young woman, 7th grader, came in and talked to me, and she whispered that she had been damaged before she was born, because her mom used drugs.

And I said, well, who are you living with? She goes, well, I'm with an adoptive family now. And she had some tears in her eyes, and I was confused. Like, okay, this happened before you were born, why are you sad? And I looked at her and I said, do you [00:11:00] blame yourself? and started sobbing. And I still am trying to process that here's a child who was damaged before she was even born.

And 11 or 12 years later, she's still on some level blaming herself. Like somehow she wasn't a worthy enough fetus. I don't know that the process, but it breaks my heart, you know, but I grabbed her and told her how I felt honored that she shared that with me and, and we move on. So the hard part for me, that I don't see society reacting.

I mean I don't get the level of support everywhere that I'm getting from the Shasta County Office of Ed. And, uh, until a year or so ago, I was fighting that. I was arguing and pushing on doors and trying to get in and I realized I just can't do that for my own mental health. So now my goal is to give the absolute best service I can to every audience in front of me.

Speaker: So just thinking about your time in the DEA to now, we'd love to know how you have seen the recreational drug landscape change, um, in America through your [00:12:00] travels through all out, all throughout America. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, actually there's the problem with The difference happened in 1995.

OxyContin was licensed and it's been almost 30 years now, but OxyContin changed everything. Heroin was well known, you know, when I was a kid and in our culture it was the kind of dead end drug. Self respecting people did not use heroin. That was the drug everyone knew was dead end. Once you start, you can't stop.

That's the dead end drug and OxyContin came along. And for the first time you had a pill in a pharmacy that was essentially as powerful as heroin. And early, 2008, I was teaching the public about prescription drug abuse in San Diego, and a man came in the back and he raised his hand. He goes, Rocky, what's, what's this heroin that comes in a blue pill?

And I laughed at him. I said, oh, heroin doesn't come in a blue pill. And I was completely wrong, because he was talking about OxyContin, which for the user is essentially heroin coming from a pharmacy. And that OxyContin, abuse trend is what pushed heavy, heavy opioid use [00:13:00] across America into every demographic.

And prescription drug abuse became a huge problem from 1995 until about 2015 legitimate prescription drug abuse. But in about 2015, the drug cartels in Mexico saw how much money Americans are spending on their illegal prescription drugs and they wanted some of that profit. So we began to see at San Diego at the border, um, seizures of Very poor quality copies of pharmaceutical drugs and they were laughable.

I mean, I remember initially when they were like, what is this thing? It looks like it's supposed to be a pill, but the color would rub off. And the example I make is, is if we tried to fake M& Ms, 

Speaker 5: we're not going to pull it off, right? We're not going 

Speaker 3: to fool anybody. But the, those early pills were horrible.

Well, now nobody can tell, our chemists in our lab, they can't tell by looking at it. The copies are perfect. So they started making these copies of the pills, initially using heroin, Um, but then they discovered that this alternative to heroin, fentanyl, was cheaper to acquire for them, more [00:14:00] powerful. So they began to add fentanyl to these pills.

And they discovered Americans liked it. And our country's never been the same. So, really, the heavy, heavy fentanyl use started 2015, 2016, and the death numbers, the overdose death numbers have just climbed every year. This year, they ticked down a little bit, which is an interesting conversation. No one's quite sure why that was, but still, it's way over 100, 000 a year dying from drugs in our country.

When I started my DEA career, we were 10, 000 a year. And now we're at 100, 000, and we're saying we've accomplished something because it's not 108, 000. So, even our perception of the problem has gotten distorted. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: And, uh, we've somehow accepted that 100, 000 Americans dying a year is, is just part of life.

And so I refuse to accept that. Yeah. You know, I remember a different time in America and, and I, I do believe we can get back there. It's gonna take a long time and a lot of effort, but I think we can get back to an America that's not so riddled by this abuse. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. We need to. I mean, that's too many deaths.

One death is too many deaths. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. So, but what, so the situation today [00:15:00] is, is that the recreational drugs, and there's nothing recreational about them anymore, but. The illegal drugs that are most commonly used in the U. S. are fentanyl and methamphetamine. Cocaine is making a comeback, unfortunately. But fentanyl and methamphetamine come from chemicals, which means the, the cartels producing them in Mexico are not limited by any production limits.

It's just as much, how much chemicals they can get, they can churn the drugs out. And when we in law enforcement seize a thousand pounds of meth or a million fentanyl pills, historically, if we seized a huge quantity of heroin, There's only so much heroin produced in the world because it comes from a poppy plant, right?

And there's only so many acres of land in the world where poppy is cultivated. So even if you're making a very small difference, as a DEA agent, I took some heroin off the stage. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Now with fentanyl, it's replaced instantly. They just turned the factory back on and produced more. So we're in a situation where law enforcement is trying very, very hard, violently, to seize the stuff and stop it.

But the production [00:16:00] in Mexico, mostly, is far greater than anything we can stop. So it's flooding into the country. It's cheaper than it's ever been. And that's what's changed as well. There's no price barrier now. Even our most economically challenged populations, the person who's using drugs can acquire the most powerful drugs that have ever existed.

And it's essentially free for them.

Speaker 2: What advice do you have for communities like Shasta County that are largely rural in dealing with the drug landscape in today? And how you said it's essentially free, it's, it, it's everywhere, right? It doesn't matter who you are, what your income level is, where you grew up, what trauma you have, um, what class you are.

it's widely spread. What advice do you have for rural counties? 

Speaker 3: Well, the, the challenge is getting the people in the county to realize that it's a threat for you too. Um, I think too many people in smaller rural communities feel that's a big city problem. That's a coastal problem. Um, [00:17:00] you recently had some huge seizures on the five of fentanyl pills hidden and raw meat that was being shipped.

Um, San Diego is on the board of the Tijuana and half the drugs that come into America come through San Diego. And a bunch stays. So you've got these big trucks or cars hauling the drugs up north to Oregon and Washington through your city and your county, some of it staying. So the population of kids and adults in Shasta that wants to acquire this stuff, it's as easy for them as it is for anybody in any of our major cities.

It's available. They know how to find it very quickly because of the internet communications and the texting and everything that's going on. But too many people who live in these counties have sort of a denial. that it's, it's the same level of, of threat. Now, when I talk to the kids in Shasta, they all know everything I'm talking about.

You know, the kids get it. They know it's there. They know it's available, but the adults, I think too many of the adults still are sort of in this rejection or denial. 

Speaker 2: Do you think that's largely related to [00:18:00] how significant the drug landscape has changed since adults were youth? In the days where it was drug experimentation?

Speaker 3: Absolutely, yes. So the challenge, one of the challenges I have is getting access to the kids. And I've been doing this 17 years. I've done 1, 300 presentations all over the world successfully. And, uh, and yet it's still hard to get in schools. And I think it's because too many people running our schools and our school systems don't understand how dramatically the judge threat has changed.

In the last five to ten years, they still think it was the threat that they were dealing with when they were a principal in a school 20 years ago, or they were a kid 30 years ago. And, and, you know, I, I'm, quote, unquote, I'm an expert. It's hard for me to keep up with the trends, um, because things are changing so rapidly.

But that is one of the bigger obstacles, I think, is this too many of our adults, too many of our politicians and our school leaders really just don't understand the threat. And then even the ones that do sort of decide it's somebody else's problem to deal with. Right. And, and, but I [00:19:00] look at it and I mean, the school today is the only place we can access kids.

We don't have churches where kids are going. We don't have big community organizations in most places. So school for me is really the only place we have to try and access the kids on this stuff. 

Speaker 2: So true. Yeah. 

Speaker: Um, so speaking of the school lens, um, what, or what lane do you think that schools, have in educating students about substance use prevention, and is it necessary to come from schools?

Speaker 3: Well, I have, I am in school, inside the school system now. I work for the San Diego County Office of Ed. So technically, I'm part of the education system, but I still look at it as a citizen. To me, school's got two main functions, right? Educate the kids, but also create healthy, functioning citizens. And I think we've gotten too far from that.

I think we're so focused now on the academic achievement and the standardized testing and, and the education [00:20:00] component that we're not recognizing that this is the only place we have to, to really develop the kids socially and culturally. And a lot of parents, um, say it's my job and I'll take care of raising my kids.

Well, the reality is that some giant percentage of our kids in Shasta and everywhere else I go don't have. Stable homes. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: They don't have parents. They don't have stable families. So, in an ideal world, where every kid was coming home to a stable family situation, yeah, we would focus on parents doing it.

But in the absence of that, I think school becomes sort of the default place to reach the kids. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you hit the nail on the head right there. A lot of kids just don't have the adults at home to be able to educate them or be present in their upbringing. So when you get the parents that say, It's their job to educate their kids on this.

That's great. But what about the other part of the population that's not getting it? 

Speaker 3: Or even worse, that the parents are the ones that are driving the behavior we're trying to educate the kids away from. So I was at a Job Corps, [00:21:00] uh, facility in, in Wyoming Friday. And after my present, these are all young adults, 16 to 24, who've joined a federal job training program to build their lives.

And a young man came up to me afterwards and shook my hand four times. A great big 21 or 22 year old kid. And Finally, he opened up and said, you know, Rocky, you talk about how it's going to be somebody close to you who gives you the drugs. He says, but you didn't talk about a parent. And his dad was a heavy cocaine abuser and got the kid using cocaine at six.

And he's trying to, you know, at 21 or 22, he's still trying to 

Speaker 2: dig himself, dig himself out of that and get away from 

Speaker 3: it. Um, so it's just, it's, again, my reaction to all the headwinds and the rejection of what I do is to go where I'm wanted. Right? And recognize that for many of the kids that I talk to, that hour or 90 minutes that I get, that may be it for the year.

Speaker 2: Yeah, or depending on what grade, that may be it, period.

Speaker: The [00:22:00] AC is probably killing your 

Speaker 5: background. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, that last, the whole last couple minutes I think was all. We can 

Speaker: use voice enhanced though, I think that'll help. Okay. But we're in a flow, guys. I know. I'm like, I heard it come on 

Speaker 2: too. 

Speaker 5: I'm like, 

Speaker 3: what? I'm gonna do this thing, the 

Speaker 5: worst thing that can happen 

Speaker 3: in 

Speaker 2: the world.

I can't wait. Clocking back in? Yeah. Maggie, I'm always on. Maggie, come on. ABR, always be recording.

You think we're good? We don't have to backtrack? I think we're good. Okay. So earlier you mentioned that there was a point in time when you realized that your own children weren't getting drug education. Um, so you are a parent of three daughters, correct? Yes. Um, what advice do you have for parents around raising children to be drug free?

We've talked a lot about The education on the dangers of drugs, but parents that want to empower their kids to be drug free and to stand up to say no and [00:23:00] to empower their own friends to not use drugs. What advice do you have for that conversation? 

Speaker 3: Well, I have three daughters that are 29, now. And I tried as hard as anybody I know to educate my kids away from it.

And each of my daughters at different times for very different reasons made some stupid mistakes. And, you know, we worked, we worked through that as a family and luckily none of those mistakes were, were too bad. But I do feel fortunate that my kids were not being offered the same drugs that the kids today are being offered.

But, um, I tried it, like I said, as hard as anybody I know and it still happened. And after each instance with my daughter, I would get over being angry, or scared, and scared, and I'd come back to him and I would ask him very calmly, Sweetheart, why did you make that choice? You knew, you knew better. And every time my daughter said some version of, Dad, it was my best friend, it was my boyfriend, it was my teammates.

And I realized that I, as much as I thought I was sort of in the groove and understanding this, I was still in denial. I thought that my kids from where I lived and how I educated them were safe. And I [00:24:00] think too many parents think that. That we're too good as parents, our kids are too smart, and it's going to be some obviously bad kid.

That tricks our kids. It's not. It's, it's someone close to them. And that's a big gap because we need parents to understand that, but we can't get parents to come to the education sessions. 

Speaker 2: We've forgotten as, as adults, the power of peer influence. 

Speaker 3: Oh, it's unbelievable. And, uh, one of my daughters, um, suffers from anxiety and depression.

And during college, she got a chance to go to a huge concert event with some of her college friends. And she told me later that she just felt she was fitting in. And she felt. wonderful, that she belonged, just wanted to enjoy the music, and then her best friend look what I got, and pulls LSD, the drug LSD, out of her pocket.

And my daughter absolutely knew she shouldn't take it. Um, but at that point, all that mattered to her was fitting it. So she used it, and I was told later that she changed because she'd made a mistake in her prescription medications, and it took two years for her finally to come, you know, explain to me what had happened.

And, uh, it's just, she knew better. [00:25:00] But at that moment, the emotions of fitting and everything took over and it's, it's terrifying to me because she could have been given a fentanyl pill and I could have lost my daughter forever at that moment. And so I think that's one of the reasons that sometimes makes me get so emotional and upset that our society isn't paying more attention to this because I've met hundreds of grieving parents now, people who are much more accomplished, much better parents than I ever was.

Who will grieve for the rest of their lives because their child made a really, really stupid decision. And they know, and I know that most of those kids never got a warning. Right. And we, and I fully recognize that once you warn the kids, that many are still gonna make the bad choice anyway. 

Speaker 5: Mm-Hmm. . Right.

Speaker 3: But I, I argue that if, if I know about a threat and I don't share that with the kids, well that's on me. But once I shared the threat with the kids, then they have to start owning some. Some responsibility. And I have a funny example. So in April I was in a school district in San Diego in a middle school.

And on the Monday of the eclipse, the principal [00:26:00] said, Hey, we're gonna have to stop your assembly halfway through so the kids can go over. They have glasses. They can go look at the eclipse. Great. So the kids go out and watch the eclipse and they come back in and this knucklehead kid tells his buddy, I looked at the sun anyway.

Ha ha. I'm like, Oh. So when the whole group of kids came back in 200 kids, I looked at him and say, Hey, how many of you looked at the sun without the glasses? 30 hands went up. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: And the poor principal went white because she had warned the kids three times. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. And 

Speaker 3: I, so I used it. I said, let's look at this.

I heard your principal tell you guys three times, very carefully and with information, why you don't look at the sun. And 30 of you did it anyway. And I said, I'm telling you the truth on the drug problem. And sadly, I know that some percentage of you are going to ignore it all and learn the hard way. I'm here for those of you who don't want to learn the hard way.

You know, in the middle school to look at that. It was a, it was a great teaching moment, but I think that's sort of the challenge. And when the people who resist drug prevention education in schools will say, well, you're not going to stop all kids. Of course we're not. Yeah. But how many do we have to reach to make it worthwhile?

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Um, the kids in Shasta who [00:27:00] smoke marijuana, right. I doubt I'm going to get very many kids who are currently using marijuana to stop. But I'd like to think that some significant percentage of those kids who are using the weed maybe do not go on to use Fentanyl or meth or something else I've talked about.

Speaker 5: Yeah, 

Speaker 3: I don't we'll never know. Yeah, but There's no easy way to define success in this 

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just that investment in continuous conversation and having that openness, but the adult that you That is in your orbit to be able to work with you Walk through like you did with your own children when they made choices, even though they were warned.

They didn't have somebody that was Judging them you were talking to them because you were scared of what their choice the outcome of their choice 

Speaker 3: Right. And I, and one of the things that kids have told me over the many, many times, thank you for talking to us and not at us. So I try very hard as this old man, authority figure.

I still, I still try to meet the kids where I think the [00:28:00] kids are. Um, I try to talk to every audience as a dad. And I think a lot of the kids actually respect that. 

Speaker: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: But it's, it's, It's going to take us a long time to get out of here, of the problem we're in, and I think that's only going to happen if it's a cultural change.

Right now, there's no actual meaningful conversation happening between the United States and Mexico about the drug problem. Um, we're both talking at each other completely. The cartels are producing as much as they want, and law enforcement's stopping maybe 10 percent of what's coming in the country. So, um, So, in the face of law enforcement not being able to stop the tidal wave of drugs flooding into our communities, the only place I see progress is through cultural change, uh, created by education and changing the conversation and making schools a place where the kids are educated, where the school leadership assumes drug prevention as a major, major part of their function, and where we create an attitude in the kids that rejects it, understanding we're never going to eradicate it, but let's, let's make [00:29:00] it socially uncool.

Um, and, and in some places, I think, you know, the schools tell me that that's happening. They sense that after these efforts, not just mine, but after these efforts, they sense a difference in that school climate. The drug use isn't discussed. It's not a thing like it was before. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. We really need that parent piece too, or that adult, that safe adult piece that you were talking about.

It's a challenge to get parents to come to parent events. Um, we're doing a lot of educating in the schools now, or we're starting to, we're starting to move the needle in education, um, in certain counties, but we're, we're still missing the realization for the adults of the dangers of today's drug use.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and I don't know how we fix that. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: You know, and um, I talk about surveys of our teens, and the CDC did a survey, nationwide survey two years ago, of American teenager mental wellness. And 44%, this data still is incredible to me, 44 percent of American teens told the Centers for Disease Control that they feel persistently sad [00:30:00] and hopeless.

And, and I still can't get my mind around that. We're the richest country in the history of the world. I use that a lot. We're the richest country in the history of the world. And almost half of our teenagers nationwide told us that they are feeling persistently sad and hopeless. I consider that a pretty serious cry for help.

And yet I saw no reaction to that data. I didn't hear any national conversations or state level conversations about, wait a second, how can that be? Richest country in the history of the world. Half our teens told us they're essentially in crisis. And we just kind of shrugged and we go on. And I think that's because we're all overloaded.

I mean, our, our teens are struggling mentally. We're struggling mentally. Yeah. And I don't know, I don't know if you can explain the world to me right now. I'd love to hear it because our politics is crazy. The economy doesn't make any sense. And the kids are looking at all this, this sort of insanity going on around them.

And, and yet we still somehow expect the kids to make sense of it. A world that we're struggling to make sense of. 

Speaker: Well, Maggie actually has that book of explaining the world. How much time do you 

Speaker 2: have? [00:31:00] 

Speaker 3: I'll stay as long as you can. I need help. I need help right now. 

Speaker: Um, so based on what you've experienced, if I were a teacher or if I were a counselor, if I were a principal, what more could I be doing in the realm of substance use on my campus and in what areas?

Would you say that you've seen school staff miss the mark? 

Speaker 3: I think the biggest thing we can do is, is make, free up teachers to go there. And when, uh, a school district will have me come to a staff training, and a superintendent will bring me in to train a staff, and I don't ask for permission, but I tell the teachers, look, by bringing me in, this superintendent is now giving you permission to have these conversations in your classrooms.

And then I look and I stare at the superintendent and they go, yeah. And I know not every teacher wants to do it, but a lot of teachers I think do, but they're afraid to. Like, they haven't been told they can have these kind of conversations in their classrooms. And, um, every teacher in every [00:32:00] subject can teach drug prevention.

Because, I even say that my talks are, they're not drug talks, they're motivational talks. And I use drug information as the platform, drug information as the mechanism. But my talks are about self esteem and self respect and honoring your, your development, honoring your potential. And to me, I don't care what class you're teaching.

And I don't care what age you're teaching. I've had a few chances to teach really little kids, like first and second grade. And I don't give them a presentation, anything like I give the older kids. But I've talked to them about good substances and bad substances and making smart choices. And those kids understand everything.

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Right? And my program's called I Choose My Future. And from start to finish. I put it on the students. It's your life. These are your dreams. The dreams you destroy by bringing in drugs and alcohol won't be mine. They're going to be yours and your family's. And even very little kids, when I'm talking to them, they're tracking on that.

Um, so it's a cultural change and it's going to take all hands on deck, that cliche. All hands on deck. So, the school districts that really use me, and there are, your county's one, there are some in San Diego, that really use me, they've [00:33:00] seen the light. And, and they're using my presentations as, as, as one of the tools, but as a catalyst to, to create this cultural change, to free up the conversation, to make the kids understand that the school cares, to make the kids understand the staff at the school actually does understand the challenges they're up against.

And uh, I implore the kids that if they're struggling to trust, find a trusted teacher, find a trusted adult and that adult will understand and that adult will try to get them the help. As 

Speaker 2: someone who has been on a school campus, sometimes initiating that, initiating that conversation or, um, building the relationship for the youth to feel safe to be able to have a conversation about their experiences, whether it be their experiences with an adult in their life that had been using or something that they are.

being exposed to with their peers. Um, are there successful ways that you've seen schools [00:34:00] really promote that throughout the entire campus? I 

Speaker 3: can't answer what happens in a school after I'm gone right now. I do have an interesting job because many people in education will visit many different schools, not the way I do, because I go engage with a big chunk of either the whole school or a big chunk of the student population and the staff.

And I get to see the culture of the school. I get to see the engagement of the kids, the culture of the kids. I get to see the engagement or lack of engagement in the, in the staff. And there are some schools I visit where I have to ask for the counselors to attend my drug assembly. Which I find mind bending.

Because I articulate the drug threat. Of the many, many threats to our kids, I think the drug threat is the most imminent. Right? And, and of all, of the many, the most likely to rapidly change their lives or end their lives. And how I would have to ask for a school counselor to attend the assembly is just That's difficult for me.

Now, some of the schools, um, when the students come talk to me afterwards to share their stories and cry, the counselor is standing there to take that kid. When [00:35:00] I stop hugging that kid, that kid goes to the counselor, 

Speaker 2: grabs and wraps 

Speaker 3: around and says, hey, you know, Rocky got you talking, let's, let's continue the conversation.

And in fact, every school I visit, there is a population of kids the school knows is having struggles. 

Speaker 5: Right? 

Speaker 3: Because the kids are manifesting it or they've been told by social services. There's a history. My experience with the kids coming up to me after my presentations is that in every school there's a population of kids that may be as big or even bigger that they don't know about.

And those kids survive on masking. They just put on the little smile mask and they come to school and they don't tell anybody. And it's not because they don't trust the school staff. They may love and adore the school staff. They can't trust the school staff reaction. This kid has, in their world, they've, they've found an equilibrium that works for them.

We might think it's atrociously bad for that kid, it's, that's their balance. And if they tell their counselor, they can't trust what's going to happen. They don't want to go to foster care, they don't want mom or dad to go to jail, um, so they don't tell anybody. And so my [00:36:00] presentations get some of those kids to kind of open up and, and it tells the schools, ah, we need to get some more resources here.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, you've also created some Additional curriculum to go along with what you do in the schools some lessons that staff members can work through Um to help continue that conversation. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

Speaker 3: Absolutely So in just in San Diego county, we have about 750 schools And so when my superintendent called me and says how's it going?

I says great and I got busy much faster than the San Diego county office thought I would um, but Working as hard as I could I hit about 200 schools Two years ago out of 750 and so the superintendent said look you can kill yourself working You're never gonna get to all of our schools And I don't want to deny any school the information if they ask for it So we created a project that I thought would be maybe just coming to a school and filming a presentation But my office decided to create a miniature curriculum out of it.

And we broke my single [00:37:00] session into six different component chapters. They're all 10 to 20 minutes long on purpose so that any teacher in any classroom setting has, you know, the opportunity to use these things. There's a teacher's guide, there's study guides and exercises that come with it. It's both in English and Spanish.

So our first goal was to give schools this free resource. There's no registration. They're on our website. Um, but they're being used in interesting ways. And I'm encouraging parents to watch them with their kids because the, the, the real conversation, and we've touched on this several times, the real conversation, the meaningful one has to happen in the home.

But often parents don't have that conversation because they don't know where to start. The kids are unlikely to come to their parents and say, Hey, can we talk about drugs? Cause they think that parents are going to react badly or judge them. So I encourage the kids and the parents to sit down together and watch these short videos.

The production value is really good, and when this 10 minute video is over, have a conversation. The parent, hey, is that really what you're seeing in the schools? Or the kid, man, that's, that's mom and dad, that's what's going on, you know, I need some support [00:38:00] here. And I think that conversation, everybody gets educated, but I think more than anything, it creates a safe space in that home 

Speaker 5: where 

Speaker 3: the kids begin to feel that they can come to the parent when they have a challenge.

Speaker 2: Yeah, the parent. Feels like they can open that door because that might be the hardest thing for some of our parents is how do we even have That conversation with our kids. Yeah, 

Speaker 3: where do you start? Yeah, where do you start and then you know, obviously, you know We don't want to just single session. So my assemblies are one and these videos are six more Um, and we're looking at ways to create uh, what now?

That's that's something that's still missing. So you get that kid or you get the family that identifies a problem We want to make it easier or as easy as we can for them to have a next step All right. Now, where do you go? Yeah. And that's something for anybody listening, you know, that's, um, there were in the past drug use could be a phase, um, but today the drugs are so powerful and so dangerous that I tell parents, if you discover or suspect drug use in your child, you treat it like it's a potentially terminal illness, [00:39:00] right?

Don't be ashamed. And that's why I talk, I talk very openly about my own family experiences and that's people like that because I'm willing to be vulnerable. It's because I'm scared about everybody else's families. Don't pretend this is something you can fix on your own. If I discovered that one of my children had a lump under their skin, I wouldn't say, Oh, I got this.

I'm going to figure this out myself. I would run like get in the car. We're going to the, you know, urgent care. And I want parents who, who fear that there's a drug problem in their kids to have that sort of same like, Oh, I got to get on this right now. And I, When parents ask me where to go, I always say the school counselor.

The easiest place to go, I think is a school counselor. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: And because that person is going to be wired into the community and maybe that person himself or herself can't offer a lot of help, but they can connect that family with a lot of other resources. That's a great starting point. 

Speaker 2: It is a great starting point.

I love that direction, that directive. Um, at SCOE, one of our core values focuses on being hopeful and helpful. What is your hope for the next generation? [00:40:00] 

Speaker 3: My hope for the next generation really is a hope for us. So one of the questions I'll ask the adults in my presentations is, I say, is the world today dramatically different for our kids than it was five years ago?

And every parent nods vigorously. Absolutely. The world, man, the world's changed, right? That's first question. Second question, how much has it changed for our kids? And nobody can answer that because we don't know what we've done to ourselves. with social media and the phones and all the stuff that's going on.

And I think it's going to take 20 years for people to look back retrospectively to figure out what do we do to our kids. But what I do know is nothing has changed in how we basically run our school systems and how we support and guide our kids. So my hope for the kids is that we begin to give them the guidance that they need and they deserve to navigate, you know, these crazy times that we're all in.

If we can't make sense of the world, how can we expect our kids to? And when I say that to the kids, they, they look at me [00:41:00] with their reaction, Maggie is like, yep. Yeah. That old man gets it. 

Speaker 2: I got goosebumps because it's, it's the truest statement there is. 

Speaker 3: Right. But what, but we adults, we sit back and we scratch our heads and we ask, why are so many kids self destructing?

Why are they making these terrible choices around drugs or sex or sexting or whatever's going on? They're lost. Yeah. And we're letting them live in a culture where it's the phone and one of the things I teach the kids about the phone. I try to teach so much in my single session, right? It's actually, I'm pretty happy with as much as I jam into the single session.

But I wish we had many, many sessions with the kids, but I don't. But the phones. The kids don't realize and maybe parents don't realize there's a world of people trying to take advantage of your kid through that phone. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Like passively and directly. Trying to take advantage of your child into, through that phone.

And my dad, when he locked the door at night, locked out the outside world, right? I was the first generation of parent that had to deal with social media and smartphones. And I discovered, I'm, I can't lock this out. This is inside my walls of my home. Yeah. And so that's when I began to really try to have conversations with [00:42:00] my kids.

And, and, uh, There's just so many areas where the kids deserve more support. For me, drugs is the thing I know about, it's what I talk about, and I think it is the one threat to the kids that is waiting for them literally. Every party they go to, every best friend's house they go to, there is a potentially deadly threat.

One example I'll make for teachers or anybody listening to this, I tell the kids, if you went to a party and some teenager walked in with a gun sticking out of their waistband, how would you react to that? And the kids why leave that's all hope yeah, would you take your friends with you? Would you tell the host there's a problem maybe call law enforcement, but you wouldn't ignore it, right?

but statistically speaking a Kid showing up with a handful of pills at that party is much more likely To kill one of your friends statistically speaking in some kid with a gun 

Speaker 5: Yeah, 

Speaker 3: and yet if some kid shows up with a bunch of pills, are you gonna react the same way? And the kids look at me Because that's not the normal reaction.

So this is the thing I'm trying to [00:43:00] teach them, right? 

Speaker 2: And we've become non reactive. 

Speaker 3: Non reactive. Yeah. So in my, I show a video in my talks of people who die from overdoses and it's really a powerful tool. It starts out with Ike Turner who died at 75 years old and age regresses down to a baby at 11 days old.

And man, it's the best tool I ever created. I'm so happy, lucky I did it. 

Speaker 2: It's 

Speaker 3: a 

Speaker 2: doozy. 

Speaker 3: It's a doozy. But in, in middle and elementary schools, it's crazy because when the age of the people that died gets down to be like 12 and 11, the entire group of kids begins to emote. Nine, seven, which I love because these little kids are trying to assimilate and process that you're not safe just because you're, not because you're young.

But in that video I show a picture of Len Bias and Len Bias was one of the most famous basketball players in America, college basketball players in the 80s and famous, famously when he signed with the Celtics, his best friends threw a party for him and to make it extra special they brought cocaine and Len used the drug and his heart stopped, he died two or three days later.

And that affected a generation of people. A bunch of people looked at that and, and [00:44:00] you didn't start using drugs. And I've, people have told me, I showed a picture. Oh my God, that's that changed my life. Well, one guy died and that impacted an entire generation that our kids today are losing an idol a week or a month.

They don't react. Some famous person they admire dies. It doesn't impact them the same way that Len bias impacted all of us because it's become so normal. As a country, we accept 100, 000 dead a year. We accept the massive amounts of homeless. The homeless problem. So, no one talks to the homeless, I guess, because when I talk to them, I ask them, what's the main reason you're on the streets?

They tell me drugs. And then I say, okay, drugs, when did you start? And the ones I talk to tell me, oh, I was in middle school and I was self medicating for this or that reason. I'm 100%, 100 percent of the homeless I talk to. Tell me, they started self medicating in middle or high school for emotional problems.

Speaker 2: Mental health. 

Speaker 3: Mental health. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: And trauma. Trying to medic deal with trauma. And I said, did you get any drug prevention in school? No. [00:45:00] And I have a hard I struggle with that because these poor people suffering so terribly in our streets, they were once upon a time in our schools. And once upon a time when they were dabbling in drug use, we had a chance to reach them.

We had a chance to throw them a lifeline. And we didn't even try. And they keep using, they don't, they don't die. They don't end up on anybody's radar. They just keep using substances until they've basically burned all their personal relationships and they end up living, you know, this horrible life in our streets.

But I don't read anybody talking about the drug issue and when did our homeless start using. So there's just a lot of challenges to doing this. And again, I'm, I'm super grateful to be part of the project that Shasta County, you know, is putting together here. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, we're grateful to have you, um, throwing a lifeline to the youth here in Shasta County and the educators that'll be at your professional development and the parents that will have the chance to listen to this, um, and hopefully have conversations with their kiddos at home to be able to move the needle the other direction.

Speaker 3: Thank you. No, and one more [00:46:00] thing I need to get out there. Um, we are, according to the government, we are in a fentanyl crisis. The headlines declare we're in a fentanyl crisis. which troubles me because fentanyl is terrible and it is a problem, but we have a huge methamphetamine consuming population.

Cocaine is back in a huge way. All sorts of our kids are damaging themselves using the super potent THC and marijuana there is today. And fentanyl is already being replaced. There's a new class of drugs called anitizines, which are ten times stronger than fentanyl, that's showing up everywhere in the U.

S. now. Um, so as we try very inefficiently to deal with fentanyl, the drug traffickers are already moving to newer, And even more dangerous substances. And so what I've been saying for 17 years, as I keep waiting for our society to assume some serious responsibility in drug prevention, if we don't get serious now, we're going to be very sad in a year or two or five years.

And I've been right every year for 17 years. And um, I think a lot of people feel like, Oh, we've somehow plateaued and this is as bad as it's going to get. I don't think so. I think, I think unless [00:47:00] we react in a big way, everything we're talking about, you know, I come back in two years or five years, it's going to be, Oh my God, look at what happened in the last couple of years.

Speaker 2: I don't even know what to say to that. Yeah, I 

Speaker 3: don't bring a happy, cheerful, happy, cheerful message. Yeah, I mean, 

Speaker 2: it's a, it's a truth though. It's a reality. Um, because we, I think we learned that there's some drug use that we weren't, we didn't feel was coming towards this direction that is in a neighboring county.

And so, I think we need to open our eyes and start paying attention and, and really being present. 

Speaker 3: It, it takes one kid. Yeah. It takes one kid, one family to bring it in your community. So last year. Um, I went into the Juvenile Hall here in Shasta County and I had some really, really interesting sessions.

Now, there's no kid in Juvenile Hall who wants to talk to me when I show up and that's just, that's just the given. But when I'm done, by the time I'm done. They did want to 

Speaker: play ping pong though. 

Speaker 3: I did play ping pong. Yeah. But by the time I'm done, um, it's different. And so I, like I said, I'm inquisitive. I want to understand why.

That's the thing. Too many people talking about drugs [00:48:00] today talk about the what. What is the drug? Yeah. Yeah. What is the drug? What's, what's in my schools? What's my, I want to understand why, why would our otherwise beautiful healthy kid full of dreams be so willing to poison himself with this stuff?

That's what I'm struggling with. But in the juvenile halls over the years, I've asked the kids, when did you start using? 

Speaker 2: It's way younger than we think. Oh yeah. 

Speaker 3: So it used to be eight, nine, 10. And I remember last year I was in one of the pods at your juvenile hall and the kids are like four or five kids are six, seven, and eight.

All of them. They started using it 8. And, in most schools, if they let any prevention happen, prevention education happen, it's going to be 11, 12, 13. Years after, 

Speaker 5: some 

Speaker 3: significant percentage of our kids are already using. You know, so, and, and, my program is very emotional. It's triggering. And, uh, it takes a strong school district, right, to be willing to use that, because it does create some emotional reactions in some families and families.

[00:49:00] are upset when their kids come home and they're emotional about what they've learned. But my program 10 years ago, a lot of high schools said, well, it's this two trigger and we can't have you come talk to our kids. And my response has always been, if I don't trigger every kid, then I failed because I need the kids to learn this emotionally.

Speaker 4: It's easy 

Speaker 3: to learn it intellectually in a classroom, but in a month or six months at the party with their best friend or their cousin, and that offer comes out, I need them to remember something that we taught them. But my program that used to be two triggering for high schools. Five years ago, I got huge access to middle schools.

And now in San Diego, I'm getting access to fifth and sixth grades. And that's not because the teachers and staff in those schools woke up to all of a sudden that we have to do prevention. If they're seeing the drug behavior now down into fifth and sixth grade. And, and so again, for me, having been in this so long, it's, it's where we are is horrible, but we're on a trend.

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Right. And it's that trend that's really scary to me. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. And their exposure is probably much younger. 

Speaker 3: for many of the kids. Yes. Yeah. Many of the [00:50:00] kids is even younger than that. Yeah. And yeah. And then if the parents were lost in substance abuse and the kids not being raised right and just, there's a, there's a domino effect, uh, of consequences that happen that are difficult to quantify.

So we don't, we don't really try to measure how many kids are damaged, how many kids perform sub optimally in school and life because they were denied anything resembling a normal childhood. Yeah. And we do count, we count this overdose death and I think we overemphasize the overdose death It's very tragic.

So when I'm teaching, um, I don't differentiate in my public discourse between a fatal or non fatal overdose. Because whether God or Narcan saves that poor human being, it's the behavior that I'm fighting. 

Speaker 5: Right. 

Speaker 3: I'm fighting, I'm fighting that, that crazy willingness to just gamble with everything. And I'm confused why our society still allows people to make that seem normal and, and, and even desirable for our kids.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot [00:51:00] of people don't feel like it'll happen to them. 

Speaker 3: Oh, I've met a lot of parents and these grieving parents. And you know, I think when, when as a parent, you know, and it's funny, I used to think with three daughters, the scariest thing I was, when my girls were little, I'd say, man, it's going to be terrible when they start dating.

Right. 

Speaker 5: And 

Speaker 3: my friend who had daughters said, no, not do when you had in the car keys. And true enough, the first time I gave my daughter the car keys and watched her drive away and like, this is scary, right? Please come home, baby. But, uh, It's, it's, it's just so scary. But as a parent, you can sort of get your mind around the thought that you might lose your child in an accident or to a disease.

Right? As horrible as that is. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: But when I meet so many beautiful people who are grieving a child lost to substance abuse, there's, there's something different. There's a inward focus. Like, how did I fail to teach that kid? How did I fail? The teachers, one of my friends in San Diego has lost 19 former students to overdose and he does it.

He blames himself as a teacher. [00:52:00] Like what did I fail to teach those kids? What did I miss? And of course it's not the parent's fault and it's not the teacher's fault, but it's just this, this pain. It's inexplicable, you know, that this loss happened. And, uh, One thought on where society is. So 15 years ago, when OxyContin hit San Diego, I worked to support a lot of families who lost their kids.

And I was in meetings with them, and all these conversations about things we would change in society. Well, time goes on. Three years ago, a father who lost his daughter to fentanyl asked me to join a Zoom call with a group of parents, newly grieving parents with fentanyl. And I joined the meeting, and I had, I was overcome with melancholy, and I had to leave the meeting, because it was like I was in a time machine.

So all these families in 2021 are talking about all these changes we're going to create in society. We're going to get it in the schools. We're going to warn our kids. We're going to change the culture. Exactly the same things that these families had discussed in 2008. None of which has happened. And I just had to go, you know what?

Okay. So it was depressing, [00:53:00] but motivating because I know that of every hundred kids I talked to at least one, 

Speaker 5: you know, 

Speaker 3: I believe, I don't know. I believe that if every hundred kids I talked to, at least one's going to come away. A little more empowered to say no thanks, you know, when somebody tries to offer this to him.

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: I think that's all we can hope for, um, with that conversation is that it'll change somebody. It'll make somebody choose something to not choose to use and choose their future. 

Speaker 3: And the challenges we'll never know, right? Yeah. And so people in a modern society, they want us to quantify everything. Show me the metrics.

Show me the numbers. Well, how do you measure, right? People claim they can do it. I don't think it's even possible. There's so many variables in this, in, in society and the, the, the different opportunities to, for people to use different substances. So I look at what we are doing now with this drug prevention, that's just a basic thing, but nobody questions the value of teaching your kid to look both ways before they cross the street or to not take candy from a stranger.

These basic things we teach our kids. And so I view what we're doing this week with the kids in [00:54:00] Shasta along those lines. This is just basic teaching. Every kid deserves to have it. Fully recognizing that some giant percentage of the kids may still make the same bad choices, but 

Speaker 2: We appreciate you being here and taking the time to sit with us today and Talk about all the amazing work that you're doing And trying to educate youth educators and parents on what we need to be doing so we can stop having so many deaths with drug use. 

Speaker 3: Well, I teach all over and I'm not seeing these kind of coordinated efforts happening many other places so I'm really proud to be part of the project that you guys are trying to build and design and to offer some supports as you move forward because what you're trying to do here in Shasta County, I'm not seeing it a lot of other places.

So keep up the good work.