Doctoring the Truth
Welcome to Doctoring the Truth, a podcast where two dedicated audiologists dissect the world of healthcare gone rogue. Explore jaw-dropping stories of medical malfeasance, nefariousness, and shocking breaches of trust. The episodes provide deep dives that latch onto your curiosity and conscience. It's a podcast for truth-seekers craving true crime, clinical insights, and a dash of humor.
Doctoring the Truth
Ep 9-Lunchtime Lipo and Lethal Lies: How an Unqualified Doctor Killed Three Patients
Your body is yours to modify as you please, but who you trust with that modification can mean the difference between life and death. The disturbing case of Dr. Peter Norman reveals the deadliest side of cosmetic surgery when placed in unqualified hands.
Norman, a physician trained in internal medicine with no surgical specialization, opened a cosmetic surgery clinic in Arizona advertising "lunchtime lipo" procedures. What followed was a horrifying sequence of deaths that exposed dangerous gaps in medical regulation and the deliberate exploitation of vulnerable communities.
Through meticulous research, we uncover how Norman's first victim, Ralph Gonzalez, died after improper airway management during what should have been a routine liposuction. When brave paramedic David Duarte reported the incident, the medical board inexplicably failed to revoke Norman's license. Four months later, Alicia Santizo Blanco became his second victim during a Brazilian butt lift, suffering a fatal fat embolism. Even after practice restrictions were imposed, Norman hired an unlicensed doctor to continue performing surgeries, leading to the death of Leslie Ann Ray—after which Norman had the audacity to charge her credit card before fleeing the country.
This episode isn't just about a rogue doctor's crimes—it's a vital warning for anyone considering cosmetic procedures. We provide essential guidance on verifying surgeon credentials through the American Board of Plastic Surgery, the American Board of Medical Specialties, and state medical boards. The difference between a qualified plastic surgeon and someone who took a weekend course could literally be life or death. Before you consider any cosmetic procedure, listen to this cautionary tale and learn how to protect yourself from becoming another statistic.
Resources:
https://aamsn.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Man-Slauter-Charges-and-2nd-degree-murder.pdf
https://www.sanfranciscoplasticsurgeryblog.com/plastic-surgery-warning-signs/
https://www.plasticsurgery.org/
https://www.jjrothmd.com/blog/murder-trial-begins-for-unlicensed-arizona-plastic-surgeon/
plastic surgery member qualifications
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Amanda Jenna Hello.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello, hello. How are you? You know, I'm doing pretty darn fine. How are?
Speaker 1:you. That sounds amazing, I'm good.
Speaker 2:I got a lot of sleep last night, so I'm feeling good.
Speaker 1:Yay, sleep helps, sleep is the universal happiness, med um.
Speaker 2:I'm going to conference in nolans she's going to nola baby next week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or she a hot shot. She's sharing a poster I am. I got a poster. I got a voodoo ghost tour booked I mean it's going to be a time.
Speaker 2:Why aren't you taking me with you? Oh wait. I just got back from a conference. I won't be conference greedy, but I wish I was going. That sounds amazing. It's going to be fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, show me something, throw me something, speaking of which you're going to show me this time, this week, amanda, it's your turn.
Speaker 2:It's my turn, baby. We're going to tap into that cosmetic plastic surgery world. We haven't been there yet, no, so you're going to learn a lot about that. Today. I learned a lot researching this, so I'm excited to share. But before we do that, may I just applaud us that we have nothing to correct what. There's. No correction section. No correction section Okay.
Speaker 1:Not that I'm aware of, I mean, there's probably some out there, but thank you for giving us a week's respite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were like they need a break after that sports situation. And then at the end of our last episode, I was like, oh my gosh, we should share our website story. And then we were like this is already over an hour and we didn't even have it pulled up, so I'm going to share that quickly. To start, it's from a username in Mankato, minnesota. We didn't have permission to share this person's name, so I'm just going to read the story. But this story was shared because of your case. That you did. That took place in a nursing home, so this listener shares. I worked for a nursing home in phoenix back in 2014. I loved talking to residents so that they trusted me. One lady kept telling me how the nurse's aid was so mean to her in stealing her jewelry and money. Well, I went and talked to the head nurse and she kept telling me that she was not in her right mind and didn't know what she was talking about.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh.
Speaker 2:So annoying, that's my saying so annoying. And then the listener writes she would not even look into the situation. The nurse's aides were so upset with me that they called a meeting and told everyone I was stealing this woman's clothes. What? Those aides became friends with all the rest and they stood against me. I left the room and never returned to my job. Oh my gosh, that was only one incident. The residents told me it made me so sick that I could not protect this lady. I called the state and put in a complaint, but nothing was ever done. I will never go into a nursing home. Oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I gotta talk about some bullies in the workplace right.
Speaker 1:I got an email from someone to our gmail about this as well, so I'm going to add. This person says nursing homes take rehab patients too, as well as more complex patients. You can't use restraints without a doctor's orders, and even then they're hard to get. The statement is true for healthcare across the board. We're expected to do more and more with less. Also, part of the conversation when discussing placement for a woman is that they can expect their husbands to stop visiting them. Oh, this person says I absolutely adore my residence and my aides are indispensable to me. Anonymous.
Speaker 2:Oh, I hate that trend in healthcare of do more with less. Yeah, yeah, it's such a bad trend, right.
Speaker 1:Thank you for writing in. Yeah, no, we appreciate the comments.
Speaker 2:And we're all here to commiserate together. Absolutely All right, y'all, are you ready to get into this? I'm ready, she ready for some football?
Speaker 1:no, just kidding, we're not going back down the sports massive correction.
Speaker 2:The next episode will just be correction section yeah, no, it's, uh, baseball season, baby. Yeah, I also don't know anything about baseball, so anyway, um, here we go. There are no trigger warnings for this episode. Oh, not that I thought. Anyways, okay, set the mood. Mood, set, mood set. Have you ever caught yourself staring in the mirror thinking if only I could change this one thing, I'd feel better. Oh yeah, it's a. It's a feeling.
Speaker 2:Many of us know all too well the urge to reshape ourselves into something we think we should be, and for some, that feeling leads to a choice that's becoming more and more common turning to cosmetic or plastic surgery to fix what feels broken. We live in a world where body image is ever shifting and expectations are unrealistic Amen. Jean-anne Schwark found herself fighting this internal battle In the fall of 2006,. She decided that she was tired of feeling self-conscious and she wanted to look a little bit better in her bathing suit. At 45 years old and a mother of five, she made the decision to have some work done on her upper body and back of her arms. She found an ad in a local paper for minimally invasive lunchtime lipo where you could go back to work the next day.
Speaker 1:Lunch. I'm sorry, lunchtime lipo, it's so catchy.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, so catchy. No anesthesia other than local, the ad highlighted. With a background in healthcare, herself working as a nurse practitioner, she wasn't worried in the slightest. She researched the clinic at Anthem Medical Plaza, as well as the provider, and everything checked out, so she scheduled her appointment. September 14, 2006 was procedure day. Jean Ann arrived and was assured by a Dr Peter Norman that if anything happened to her she'd be in good hands. Dr Norman began handing her several pills and, as a nurse practitioner, she tried her best to keep track of what she was putting in her mouth. Jean ann was someone that never took any pills, so she knew that anything she took would hit her hard, and I resonate with that because I also never take pills. So, like the couple times I've had surgery, I'm like it's not gonna take very much. Just, I'm a lightweight, right, it'll be fine, yeah so yeah, don't overdo it, folks, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna need a lot of guys, yeah, um. So she knew pills would hit her hard. This brings us to 10 pm, where Jeananne woke up freezing in the dark on a cold table covered in blood. What she felt? As though she had been beaten up. She mustered the strength to pull herself off the table and leave the clinic as quickly as she could. When she woke the next day, her bed looked like a crime scene covered in blood. She then examined herself and found six to eight holes in her body that already looked infected. She treated herself with wound irrigations and decided she would let them heal on her on their own. She knew that this was beyond negligence, but she opted not to complain to the Arizona Medical Board due to professional embarrassment and the fact that she blamed herself. While Jean Ann would be lucky enough to survive her wounds, others would not be as fortunate, with headlines reading Plastic Surgeon Convicted of Multiple Murders.
Speaker 1:Oh my god. So they left her there on the table for her to just-.
Speaker 2:I know I really don't understand that. What To just? It happens again, just like take herself out of there.
Speaker 2:Oh my, they're just like how we give up. Bye, we're going home for dinner. Like what the hell's happening here? Oh my gosh. So a mr peter norman was born on April 16th 1961. And there is limited background information on him online, which is okay, because I'd rather focus on his victims and his crimes today rather than dissect whether or not he had a happy childhood, which is not very nice to me, I swear I'm a nice lady. Anyway, he earned his medical degree in June of 1994 from St George's University School of Medicine in Granada, which is in the West Indies. He completed a three-year residency in internal medicine at Roger Williams Medical Center in Providence, rhode Island, and went on to practice emergency medicine in New York State for 16 years before deciding to move to Arizona and establish his own medical practice where he would provide cosmetic procedures. The issue with this was that, while Peter Norman was a doctor, he did not have the necessary qualifications for practice of this kind.
Speaker 1:Oh dear.
Speaker 2:Little spoiler alert here. He was convicted for the deaths of three patients at his clinic in Anthem, Arizona between 2006 and 2007.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:His lack of training in plastic surgery and negligence in performing complex procedures led to the tragic deaths of Ralph Gonzalez, alicia Santizo Blanco and Leslie Ann Ray. Not only is this a tragic case, it also exposed disturbing practices, including the exploitation of vulnerable communities, which we'll get into and you're going to be pissed, and the broader issue of unqualified practitioners in the field of cosmetic surgery. This case begs the question of when does a medical mistake turn to murder?
Speaker 1:Oh boy.
Speaker 2:Ralph Gonzalez was born November 30th 1973. He was noted to be a quiet child, more of an observer, and very easygoing. His mother said in an interview that he was quote a great son. You could trust him. Ralph was born and raised in Middletown, new York, and moved to Arizona when he was 19 years old. One day he called his mother and told her that he wanted to have his stomach flattened. He had been running about five miles a day and couldn't get rid of his stomach. In his eyes. He assured his mom that the procedure would be quick and easy and he'd be right back to work. His mom told him that she didn't think it was necessary, but he was an adult and she respected his decision to move forward with the procedure. In that same interview she was quoted to say she was trusting that his doctor is an honest person and usually doctors are you're gonna tell me it wasn't I don't think so.
Speaker 2:David duarte was a first responder on duty when they received a 911 call to a cosmetic surgery clinic for a patient who had stopped breathing while undergoing a liposuction procedure. They arrived at Dr Norman's clinic and he recounted. The first thing that he noticed upon arrival was the patient's stomach. He said it looked like he was nine months pregnant. Oh no, he presumed that it was distended, which is a good indication that the airway tube that was inserted was not in the trachea, rather the esophagus which goes directly into the stomach. Oh, rather, the esophagus which goes directly into the stomach.
Speaker 2:When first responders arrived, staff were performing CPR, but David noted that they didn't seem as though they had any medical training at all. They were very panicky, with looks of terror in their eyes. David asked not good at all. David asked Dr Norman who had intubated the tube, and he said he did. That is where the confrontation began. David was very confident that the tube was in the wrong place because he couldn't hear any lung sounds. Dr Norman barked at him that he's been an ER doctor for 16 years and it's in the right place. And that's when David snarked back and said, quote well, I've been a paramedic for 14 years, and if you'd done your fucking job, I wouldn't be here.
Speaker 1:Oh, can I just say good for him. Oh, my God, I know.
Speaker 2:I know David is a true hero in this story. Emotions were high and it was time to transport Ralph to the hospital. Dr Norman requested to ride along in the ambulance to the hospital, which is an extremely unusual request. While in the ambulance, david began to remove the endotracheal tube and Dr Norman kept stopping him. They fought back and forth about whether or not it was in the right place. David then became physical, grabbing him by the throat and slamming him against the ambulance wall. He told him quote if you ever touch me again, I will break your fucking arm off and beat you to death with it oh wow, I know like, but also he wants to save that patient david's just trying to do his job and save this patient's life in this asshat norman who just is like I want to ride an ambulance, it's like no shithead, you've done enough, please stay behind.
Speaker 2:so david then successfully removed the tube out of the stomach and grabbed a new tube to place. Dr Norman grabbed it out of his hands and inserted it blindly.
Speaker 1:Oh no, oh no, that's not good, that's not good. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:Ralph immediately began pulling blood from his mouth. They arrived at the hospital and he was placed in the care of the ER team and one hour later One hour later he was pronounced dead at the age of 33 from liposuction?
Speaker 1:Oh no, All because he didn't know how to intubate.
Speaker 2:You're catching on here. Yes, so the day of the procedure, ralph's mom was waiting for his call. You know mama button, she's worried, oh gosh. So her phone rang and she answered. It was Ralph calling. But it wasn't Ralph. It was Dr Norman on the other end of the line. He informed her that Ralph had died. She couldn't believe it. It was supposed to be a routine procedure. How could this happen? She said about that moment, quote your heart goes down to the floor. This is someone that you love so much and is never going to be around again.
Speaker 1:I can't. Imagine.
Speaker 2:David called the Arizona Medical Board and filed an official complaint.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, David did everything he could, but my goodness.
Speaker 2:I know and he had said that's why he felt inclined to file this official complaint because he felt like it was the last thing he could try and do for Ralph.
Speaker 2:So in January of 2007, the Arizona Medical Board opened an investigation. There was little information on Dr Norman because he was new to the area of practice. Dr Edward Eads, who is an Arizona Medical Board consultant, was asked to look into him. He found what we know to be true, that he completed undergrad in the States and went to medical school in the Caribbean. After med school he became an ER doc in New York and around 2004 or 2005, he moved to Arizona and apparently decided he wanted to become a cosmetic surgeon, opening his own practice. An investigation first determines if the doctor is in serious violation of one of 32 statutes, with the most important of these being is there a danger to the public? The medical board couldn't find a serious violation of the 32 statutes and he wasn't in apparent danger to the community, so the case was dismissed.
Speaker 1:Okay, I have a question Like so in order for someone to become an allergist or an otolaryngologist, they have to do a fellowship. Do I have to do a fellowship in plastic surgery, or is that not a thing? Yeah, we're going to get into that?
Speaker 2:Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. Yes, okay, okay. So that brings us to Alicia Centizo Blanco, who was born on December 15th 1965, and unfortunately passed away on April 25th 2007, at the hands of Dr Norman. Oh gosh, again little information that I could find on Alicia. But we do know that she had been receiving cosmetic surgery procedures that her family was unaware of. Yeah, she had had. Yeah, I mean, that's something people don't talk about, right? They're embarrassed, right? Let's see, she had had multiple procedures completed by Dr Norman, such as breast implants, liposuction and fat injections. She was going back to have some lipo redone as well as perform a fat grafting procedure, which is known as the Brazilian butt lift.
Speaker 2:Jeff Heinrichs was a paramedic on duty the day of her procedure. His crew was dispatched to Dr Norman's office for a 41-year-old female who coded during liposuction. Paramedics were met by Dr Norman at the door and he said he wasn't sure why the patient had coded. Jeff listened for placement of the tube and he told dr norman that he didn't think the tube was in the right place. They argued back and forth about this until jeff made the decision to pull the tube out to be replaced before transport. Dr norman again insisted that he ride to the hospital. Freaking weirdo when. When they arrived, it's like is that how you want to still have control over the situation, Right, because you know you fucked up? Yeah, when they arrived at the hospital, she had a pulse and was transferred to the care of the ER team. She passed away three hours later.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:While at the hospital, jeff ran into David who had brought in a different patient. He told him that his cosmetic surgeon guy struck again and that they just brought in a patient of his. David was beyond furious and couldn't believe that this had happened for a second time. He called the medical board again and left a detailed message of the second occurrence.
Speaker 1:Good for him.
Speaker 2:Yes. So David was worried that the first case against him had been dismissed because he had disclosed that they had been fighting. So they took it, as I know they didn't just take it as a personal thing because he wasn't in violation of one of the 32 statutes and he wasn't in apparent danger to the public.
Speaker 1:But david personally felt like yeah, if I wouldn't have fought with him maybe something different. Yeah, yeah so when this happened again, he was like I have to say something again what are the odds that he was around to know this so they could report him again? Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2:Alicia's son, frey, received a call from the hospital that his mother was there and that she wasn't going to make it through the night. He was in disbelief. He had just spoken to her the day before and she was just fine. And now he was getting a phone call that he needed to head to the hospital to his goodbyes. By the time he arrived, she had sadly passed away. The hospital informed him of more specifics, like where she had had the procedure done and who the doctor was.
Speaker 2:Fray drove to the clinic and burst through the door demanding to talk to dr norman. When he stood in front of him, all he could manage to say was what were you thinking? What were you doing? Frey recounted that all Dr Norman said was I'm sorry and walked away. Alicia's death was only four months after the death of Ralph. While the initial investigation was dismissed, it was a red flag that there was a second death in his clinic in only four months. The medical board wasn't sure if he was able to safely practice medicine at this point, so they drafted an interim practice restriction so that they could ensure he wouldn't have any other patients in his care until the board had an opportunity to complete a thorough investigation. Oh, that's good. Yes, the Go Arizona Medical.
Speaker 1:Board.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think they did their due diligence. They did good. Dr Eads was again asked to be a consultant for the investigation. He now had the opportunity to do a review of records, where he noted several deviations from the standard of care as it pertains to Ralph. These were his findings Before the actual liposuction began. Ralph's oxygen levels dropped quickly and his heart stopped what. Ralph had 10 times the lethal dose of lidocaine in his system, which is why his heart stopped what. His death was noted to be the result of an adverse reaction to medications administered for cosmetic liposuction. Another thing the investigation showed was that his abdomen was severely distended due to incorrect endotracheal tube placement. In regard to Alicia a, Dr Eads found that during surgery she suffered cardiac arrest oh my gosh he explained that a risk of fat grafting is a fat embolism.
Speaker 2:Fat can mistakenly be injected into a vein during the procedure, which can then transfer all the way to the heart and enter the lungs, which causes the heart to stop. This was the cause of her death. Dr Dorman failed to inform EMS personnel or the staff in the ER that fat embolism was even a possibility, and had he, they might have had the opportunity to save her life. But he's a piece of shit.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:In addition to these grave medical errors uncovered, he also discovered that many of the patients that had come to the clinic had found ads that were placed in Spanish-language newspapers that are circulated in Mexican-American communities. These are hard-working folks who were said to often have cold hard cash to spend. He advertised in Spanish, but when patients would come to sign legal documents, the documents were all in english. Oh funny that, yeah. Lead attorney for the case, dean brecchi, noted that many of the spanish-speaking people in this particular community are undocumented, so they are naturally afraid to come forward with any complaints because, while, yes, they were harmed, they didn't want any documentation that they were here.
Speaker 2:How freaking sad is that, oh god, it's tragic he believed that norman wanted to get money from people who weren't going to complain. Of course he did, and when you think it couldn't get any worse, they also found that he had medical equipment that wasn't registered, medications that weren't stored properly or securely, and his staff members did not have any surgical training.
Speaker 1:I mean his staff members seemed like they didn't even have basic life support training because they were freaking out about trying to do CPR.
Speaker 2:And like, if it's your first time doing CPR, okay, fine, but for the whole room to see panicky, it's like someone has to take control in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's disgusting.
Speaker 2:In May of 2007, Dr Norman was under investigation for the death of two patients in just under four months. With an interim practice restriction in place, investigators were shocked to find out that there had been another death at his clinic. What? But before we get into that, it's a chart note. Welcome to the chart note segment, where we learn about what's happening in medicine and healthcare. Why does chart note make us feel like we should sing? I love it, but I don't when I hear it back.
Speaker 1:No, I'm always like eee lie, Sorry, I know.
Speaker 2:Sorry everybody, although I did have someone tell me that. I've actually had a couple people tell me your voice was made for podcasting. But someone particularly told me that my voice scratched an itch in their brain. So shout out to Morgan, that was so nice Scratched an itch.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was a positive Good. Good, good, good, good for you. Oh, is that not that your voice scratched and itched in her brain? I suppose?
Speaker 2:yeah, like you know, like when you're like scratch a dog and they get like the early kids. I don't know, I took it as a good type of thing.
Speaker 1:That's a good thing, then, because you, you, you, you scratch your itch. If it was just itching, then that would not be good, right?
Speaker 2:oh my gosh yeah, I see where you're going with that, but but I'm telling you, yeah. It was a compliment.
Speaker 1:I believe it because I know it to be true.
Speaker 2:I listened to your voice and I'm just like oh boy, lord, have mercy, I'll be blushing over here, okay, anyway, chart note, y'all Chart note.
Speaker 1:Chart note.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I looked up the training requirements because I had the same question. You did um for plastic and cosmetic surgeons and I was curious how one can be confident that they're going to go in for a procedure and that the person performing the procedure is qualified to be doing said procedure. Good, good question, very great question. So I found an excellent blog titled San Francisco Plastic Surgery Blog by Dr Joseph A Mealy, who is a board certified plastic surgeon in San Francisco. He wrote about plastic surgery warning signs and I'd like to share some of his tips and tricks with you, as well as share what I learned about the pathway to becoming a plastic or cosmetic surgeon.
Speaker 1:Perfect.
Speaker 2:Here we go oh, an MD or DO medical degree that has completed education, including a bachelor's degree, which is four years, a medical degree, another four years, and a plastic surgery residency training lasting a minimum of six years. They may either choose to go to an integrated residency training that combines three years of general surgery and three years of plastic surgery, or an independent five-year residency program in general surgery, followed by a three-year plastic surgery residency oh so eight years, holy cow, it's a lot.
Speaker 1:So it's like medical school plus six to eight years. I mean this is a couple more medical schools, right? Mean, this is what blows my mind. It's not like you can just become a doctor and then decide you're going to be a plastic surgeon.
Speaker 2:This is a huge commitment yeah, yeah, it sure is, and a huge commitment that one a dr norman didn't take, okay, um what the hell was he doing?
Speaker 2:I mean who gave him a loan to open that clinic. Okay, right, okay, carry on. A person may then choose to attend a fellowship program in one of the many subspecialties of plastic surgery. Fellowships are one year or longer. The surgeon will then become board certified by either the American Board of Plastic Surgery or the American Osteopathic Board of Surgery. For DO Physicians, a board certified plastic surgeon can work within six categories Hand surgery disorders. Plastic surgeon can work within six categories Hand surgery disorders, reconstructive surgery, trauma surgery, congenital defect repair and cosmetic surgery. Now, that is for a plastic surgeon, but we also have cosmetic surgeons From the American Board of Cosmetic Surgery.
Speaker 2:Cosmetic surgery and plastic surgery both encompass improving a patient's body. The overarching philosophies that guide the training, research and goals for patient outcomes are different. Cosmetic surgery focuses on enhancing appearance or aesthetic appeal. It treats areas that function properly and are elective procedures. Cosmetic elective procedures can be performed by the doctors from a variety of medical professionals. There are currently no residency programs in the United States devoted exclusively to cosmetic surgery. Because of this, cosmetic surgeons primarily obtain training and experience after completing their residency training by completing a post-residency fellowship training program in cosmetic surgery. There is board certification to be obtained in cosmetic surgery and the training experience knowledge required to become board certified reflects subspecialization, above and beyond what it takes to become certified in a related discipline such as plastic surgery. That is so much, so many words, but it seems like it's.
Speaker 1:It's not actually, uh, as rigorous as becoming a plastic surgeon.
Speaker 2:So if you're, if you're because it's just one of those six. Yeah, yeah, but as we'll learn in a minute here, yeah, okay, so that's kind of what I was thinking and then I learned um. During this fellowship, the surgeons receive a thorough training in all cosmetic surgery procedures of the face, breast and body, plus non-surgical cosmetic treatments, performing a minimum of 300 individual cosmetic surgery procedures. The fellowship training is in addition to completing a three to five-year residency program.
Speaker 1:Okay. So if you're a surgeon and you're advertising cosmetic surgery, do you have to have this legally, Do you?
Speaker 2:know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like I can't believe that you had a three to five year residency in this particular.
Speaker 2:The answer is no, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:If you are going to look for a procedure for yourself.
Speaker 2:I would beg you to look for these things. But I also learned that people can take classes, like online classes, to become cosmetically trained, so that's what our boy did but our boy didn't take basic, like how to intubate a patient, like I mean oh, but, but he apparently was an er physician in new york.
Speaker 1:Explain that yeah, and you can't maintain an airway. Come on, dude, you were putting the LMAs in the stomach. Come on, that's, that's okay, anyway. Okay, back to the chart. Okay.
Speaker 2:Um, okay. So yes, that was a lot, um. But lastly, I did want to tie in the information um that Dr Mealy had stated in his blog that there are three places every patient should check before having plastic surgery. So one American Board of Plastic Surgery, two American Board of Medical Specialties, abms, and number three, your state's medical board.
Speaker 1:What are they checking, though? They're checking that your surgeon is tested. Tell you, okay, sorry so no, that's okay.
Speaker 2:So in the blog, dr mealy used these tools to search dr norman and these were the findings okay so a quick check on the american board of plastic surgery website reveals no records found for dr norman. This means he is not board certified plastic surgeon.
Speaker 1:Suspicious.
Speaker 2:Suspicious. Okay, number two the ABMS website is the best way for you to determine what board has certified your doctor. A check of this website would reveal no certification by any board. For Dr Norman, yeah, a previous check of the healthgradescom website would show that he was board certified in internal medicine at some point in time, but cannot be corroborated by the ABMS website. The reasons for this, according to Dr Mealy, could be one he was never board certified in internal medicine. Sketch, according to Dr Mealy, could be one he was never board certified in internal medicine. Sketch Two he was board certified in internal medicine but he did not pass recertification.
Speaker 2:Or three his board certification was removed after his Arizona medical license was revoked. The best case scenario here is that Dr Norman was certified by the American Board of Internal Medicine, but this is not a surgical board. So since this article had posted, dr Norman has been removed completely from the health grades website. They were like fuck that guy Get him out of here.
Speaker 1:Not a good sign Loser.
Speaker 2:And lastly, checking your state's medical board. A check of the Arizona Medical Board previously revealed one listing for him under the specialty of emergency medicine. The listing detailed that he did graduate from medical school in June of 1994 from St George's blah blah blah. It also showed that he completed a three-year residency in Rhode Island. The link to this has since been removed because no one wants anything to do with Peter Dorman.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, do your research. I love that you gave us some tips and tools for Because you know, no shade. I mean, if a girl wants to get some plastic surgery, go for it. But my goodness, how would you even know? Because you know, obviously their websites are going to be all bright and shiny about all the wonderful things that they do. So how do you know that who's behind this actually knows what they're doing? Who knew you could die from?
Speaker 2:what they're doing. Who knew you could die from? Well, you know, actually, and not to like, scare anyone off from getting plastic surgery or cosmetic procedures done because there's nothing wrong with that, right? But they I have read in so many places while doing research on this it is extremely rare to die during these. This guy is just a fucking idiot, of course. But like, but, it's like you don't go into going to get some lipo? Yeah, you're like sweet, I'm gonna look awesome in the caimans. This year I got a little lipo. Oh wait, no, I'm not leaving what?
Speaker 2:oh wait, I'm in heaven, so it doesn't oh wait, I'm just looking down on the caimans every day now no, do you think kevin is like the caimans?
Speaker 1:I hope so and you don't need plastic surgery because you have the perfect body or sunscreen because you don't sunburn, right?
Speaker 2:uh, you could just hang out in the sunshine all day, not worry about sunburn. Can you guys tell we are craving some vitamin d?
Speaker 1:up in minnesota. Wow, we need some spring, we need bring it. Yeah, yes, okay, okay. Back to the case, back to this case.
Speaker 2:Oh baby, oh no okay, all right, it's gonna get dark for shoot Okay.
Speaker 1:That's what we're all about.
Speaker 2:Sorry to burst your bubble. I don't know why I'm surprised.
Speaker 1:This is our podcast people yeah, okay. Yep, okay, bring it down.
Speaker 2:Okay, leslie Ann Ray, born July 9th 1953, would be the third and final victim of Dr Norman. Limited information on Leslie's background was available online. She arrived for her liposuction on July 5th. Surgery was not performed by Dr Norman because you know he has those darn restrictions in place, but he circumvented these restrictions by hiring a Dr, gary Page, who was a homeopathic physician, to do the surgeries. Oh, dr page was not licensed in arizona to perform procedures of any kind, but here he was, under the direction of dr norman, performing cosmetic surgery.
Speaker 1:The ass leading, the ass hat okay wonderful tell me this had no monetary um driven yeah okay, dr page was noted to leave the clinic around 7 pm.
Speaker 2:Sometime in the night dr norman charted that leslie had stopped breathing and began to perform cpr and instructed someone to call 9-1-1. I'm just, I can't stop thinking about like these are routine procedures. You go back to work the next day like why the hell are people spending the night?
Speaker 1:it's an out. Yeah, what do you mean? Spending the night? It's an outpatient procedure, was she's just still on the table?
Speaker 2:she was still right did you just learn from gene ann? You didn't want to leave her in the cold dark anymore. You staying with, staying with him now, like what the hell, buddy? I?
Speaker 1:mean yeah, there's so many things wrong with this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So Mike Parks was the EMT on duty. Arriving at the clinic, he too noticed that Leslie's stomach was distended. It appeared that she had not been breathing for quite a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, her airway was not secure people.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry Her stomach was inflated, not her okay, not her lungs yeah, I'm choking up here, okay she was transported to the hospital where she passed away shortly after. At this point, the clinic was closed and treated as a crime scene. Yeah, when searching the clinic, they found a bloody endotracheal tube in the trash can and believed that he attempted to intubate Leslie, even though his note didn't indicate that he did. Yeah, because he doesn't know what he's doing he's an idiot. They later confirmed during I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Why doesn't he have an anesthesia tech? I mean, this is their job. They're so good at the securing airway they are excellent, cheap to have to have any staff probably okay, anyway.
Speaker 2:Um, I hope I put something about this in there later, but if not, I'll mention it anyway. You gotta go back. Just kidding, hey, um, where are we? Oh?
Speaker 1:sorry um.
Speaker 2:He attempted to intimidate her, but his no, yes, and and his note said he didn't, because he's a big fat liar, okay. They later confirmed during an autopsy that he did in fact attempt to intubate her, causing a tear which, sadly, sealed her fate. His license to practice in arizona was revoked. Medical investigators knew that they needed to stop him permanently because while he was now unable to practice in arizona, that wouldn't stop him from practicing in another state. Patients were not just dying, they were being killed. This is not just negligence. At this point, everyone was unsure if he could even save a patient's life. With three deaths in seven months. This wasn't bad luck, people. This was a bad doctor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was indicted on two charges of murder in the second degree for the deaths of ralph gonzalez and leslie ray, and one charge of manslaughter for the death of alicia santizo. He was arrested and given the opportunity of bail, which she posted, of course. He then disappeared. He fled the country to avoid prosecution. Prosecutors believe that he had fled to Germany because his wife was from there. A fugitive team was looking for him and a warrant was issued for him. Should he ever resurface in the United States? He had been gone for a year when, in October of 2000, I deleted my note. It says 200.
Speaker 1:It's October of 200, but I'm thinking, I'm thinking.
Speaker 2:That ain't right 2000 something, something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it was a. I think it's 2008. We're going to go 2008. Okay, he was arrested at the airport in Kentucky. Since he had well proven that he was a flight risk, he was held in jail without the opportunity of bail until he was able to be prosecuted Shame, which brings us to summer of 2011.
Speaker 2:The case was tried in court. Prosecutors noted that it would be a tough case to beat because they had to prove that he was being reckless. All three cases were tried together in one trial. The prosecution had stated to the courtroom quote he didn't kill them with a gun. He killed them with arrogance and in this case, the motivation was greed. End quote.
Speaker 2:The defense's stance was that the issue was whether or not these were homicides. They argued that these were medical accidents and inherent risk of the procedures. Oh, come on, gag me. Oh, it came out during the trial that after Leslie's death, peter Norman still had the motherfucking audacity to charge her credit card for the full amount of the procedure. The prosecution stated she paid for her own death. That tells you what kind of person he is. It's disgusting. It was also revealed that he had only seven sessions of training in liposuction, so those like weekend online whatever he had never done, a residency in plastic surgery or anesthesiology. Other disturbing, other disturbing details brought to light were that he had been relying on a massage therapist and a former restaurant worker with little to no training as medical assistants. They were the ones working in the operating room.
Speaker 1:Oh, how unfair was it to them as well, I mean yeah, the massage therapist also was charged.
Speaker 2:They pleaded guilty and they were charged to five years. What which I obviously didn't go into, but fun fact, which I obviously didn't go into, but fun fact um, the operating room lacked proper oxygen and monitoring equipment. Norman said in the courtroom no, he sat in the courtroom listening to families share their stories of how these deaths tore their worlds apart, but he chose not to testify coward on september 20th 2011. Did you say turd I?
Speaker 1:said coward, but he's a turd as well. I'll use a turd bucket for sure, but I mean yeah okay.
Speaker 2:so 67 days later, on the day of sentencing, peter norman spoke to the judge and said quote, I express my deepest sorrows. To the day of sentencing, peter Norman spoke to the judge and said quote, I express my deepest sorrows to the families of Ralph Gonzalez, alicia Santizo and Leslie Ray. He then went on to say, quote I'm particularly angry at David Duarte for lying on the stand. I think that is just outrageous that he came forward to your court and said what he said. It's just simply not true. End quote Wah, wah, wah, huh. The judge replied with In our society, I think we all look up to doctors, and when doctors take an oath of do no harm, there is a reason. We look up to them, we trust them. Sir, I do find that you did harm and you violated your oath, and for that you deserve a very stiff punishment heck yeah, oh yeah, that sounds great, right like, yeah, let's get him.
Speaker 2:Well, hold your stomachs, because they're about to drop, because this motherfucker was only sentenced to 25 years in prison.
Speaker 1:What he killed three people. At least that way, no Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that came. Yeah, yeah, Okay. So Norman later appealed his conviction because the judge ruled that all three of the cases could be tried in the same trial to the same jury and that that was prejudicial. His conviction was then overturned by the Arizona Court of Appeals, which meant that the county attorney had to start all over.
Speaker 2:On October 3rd 2016, the trial for the murder of Leslie Ann Ray began. The jury came back in short order with a guilty verdict for second-degree murder. The following May, he settled on the other two cases with the same results as the first One guilty verdict for second degree murder and one for manslaughter. So he was sentenced for 10 years for each count of murder and five years for the count of manslaughter, for that same total of 25 years. I just, I don't understand the lack of punishment. No, um, ralph's mom actually. So then, like, families get to give their statements, and ralph's mom had said to the judge or to the courtroom or whatever, to everyone present through a microphone, um, that people get more time for hurting animals, exactly, and he took her son away and other people, yes, and, oh my God.
Speaker 1:And he willfully exercised his negligence, which led to deaths, I mean.
Speaker 2:Driven by greed? Yeah, as evidenced by him charging her credit card after she already died. What a psycho. Oh my God, I don't get it. So um, this, this gem, is actually eligible for release this year. Oh wonderful yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, please tell me he will no longer have a license to practice anywhere in the United States. Is that something?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he. He cannot practice in the united states anymore, but what will stop him from doing this again overseas? I mean, he already went to germany once.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, that's right, yeah it's not like we can stop him from going to africa or somewhere they already suffered swango.
Speaker 2:They don't need him like your swango.
Speaker 1:They don't need him. I know like your swango dude.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. The case of Dr Peter Norman is a cautionary tale that highlights the dangers of unqualified practitioners in the field of cosmetic surgery. His reckless practices led to the loss of three innocent lives and caused irreversible pain for their families. Absolutely, the broader implications of the case point to systemic issues within medical regulation, exploitation of vulnerable populations and the need for greater patient awareness. The deaths of Ralph Gonzalez, alicia Santizo and Leslie Ray were entirely preventable and the case serves as a stark reminder of the importance of proper qualifications, regulation and vigilance in the medical field. And lastly, as shared in Dr Mealy's blog, your federal and state governments cannot protect you.
Speaker 2:Every state maintains a medical board. Their job is to check the training of all physicians and surgeons practicing in the state and, if qualified, the board allows the qualified doctors to purchase a license to practice medicine. Each state has its own board, but the requirements are not widely varied. The federal government regulates prescription drug use and licensed physicians can purchase a DEA certificate which allows them to prescribe drugs. Neither the state nor the federal government restrict the practice of medicine based on the type of training the doctor has completed. The MD degree is granted after completing medical school and a state license is granted in California after completing one year of internship and passing required exams. With a state license, a DEA certificate can be obtained before any specialized training is started. Since a license is granted before specialized training is started, there are no restrictions on the type of medicine a license holder can perform.
Speaker 2:A doctor trained in internal medicine, which should focus on diabetes, high blood pressure, lung disease, can perform brain surgery, as long as they conform to the standard of care. This pushes the responsibility onto hospitals. Hospital medical staff review qualifications within each specialty and grant privileges for specific procedures after a period of supervised proctoring. This peer review can help for hospital-based disciplines like brain surgery. But most cosmetic surgery is outpatient surgery and not performed in a hospital. The American Society of Plastic Surgery and the American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery both require that all members have hospital privileges for all procedures they perform, even if they are normally performed outside of the hospital.
Speaker 2:So this has been a big debate throughout the years for the states to do more to protect citizens from unqualified doctors practicing outside of their scope of training. Special interest money has made this almost impossible and there is little interest in drafting difficult legislation. And just he noted this obviously does nothing to do with breast implants, but while reviewing silicone breast implant leakage rates, the FDA noted that leaks occurred most often at the hands of non-certified, non-board certified plastic surgeons, often in the operating room. It's just a buyer beware situation for bargain basement plastic surgery. It's up to you to find the best doctor. It's your body, your health and your life. Plastic surgery is elective and you have time to decide how you want to proceed and who you want to trust. Resources are available online to help you make the best decision possible, and while the recommendations above cannot guarantee perfect results, they can certainly improve your odds wow, I mean done, done.
Speaker 1:That was eye-opening. I mean, I did not know a lot of this, so thank you for bringing that to our attention. Great research, great story.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you thank you, thank, thank you, thank you. Um, all of the resources that I used, um will be in the footnotes, um, so, uh, do you have a little medical mishap for us?
Speaker 1:I do. Um, this week we have an email from anonymous and, by the way, if you want us, if we're able to shout out your name, let us know you can use my name. If you don't say specifically that we can use your name, you're going to be nameless. No, you're going to be anonymous, yeah, so okay. So this email says hey guys love the podcast. I have a medical mishap that still gets me roasted at family gatherings. So a few years ago I was slicing an avocado oh gosh, uh, those slippery little suckers. Parentheses yes, I know, rookie mistake and parentheses and I somehow managed to stab myself in the hand so badly that it definitely needed stitches. Oh no, but instead of going to the er like a normal person, I thought, hey, I've seen youtube videos, I can totally do this myself.
Speaker 1:so oh my gosh, I grabbed a needle and thread from my sewing kit because obviously a kit meant for buttons is definitely surgical grade.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and the long straight needle, that'll work really well for stitches and started stitching myself up.
Speaker 1:About three stitches in my hand was cramping and I was sweating like I'd just run a marathon, and I realized, oh shite, I had sewed part of the gauze into my skin Like literally attached it. At this point I was both horrified and impressed with myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, kidding, you go you.
Speaker 1:I had no choice but to go to the ER, where the doctor took one look at my handiwork and sighed deeply and muttered oh, you tried to do this yourself, didn't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, buddy, I got a gauze sewed on my hand.
Speaker 1:Long story short. They removed my craft project, stitched me it properly and gave me a solid lecture on why. Sewing skills do not translate to medicine. My family still calls me Dr. Homek. Not translate to medicine. My family still calls me Dr.
Speaker 2:Homek. That's amazing, dr Homek. Thank you so much for sharing that story with us Ouch yeah. Yowzies, can you imagine sticking a long straight needle?
Speaker 1:through. No thanks, that was someone who didn't want the copay. That was someone who's like. You know what I'm gonna save myself the copay we're gonna get there. You know what, if you're gonna do that, at least try like super glue first, because it's yeah, you know it's it's's sterile and most of the time I can get the job done, as long as you don't glue unnecessary things to the area. But you know, I'm not a medical doctor.
Speaker 2:Don't take our advice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't take my advice.
Speaker 2:Just pay the copay. Oh wow, that was great. Um, what can we expect to hear next week?
Speaker 1:Jenna. Well, okay, so tomorrow morning, throughout the rest of the week I'm going to be in, uh, nalens, so I thought I should cover something Nalens-ish. So I'm thinking I'm going to present a case about murder or mercy Hurricane Katrina and a case about euthanasia or murder.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, I'm here for it.
Speaker 1:Whether it was euthanasia or murder. Yeah, yeah, okay, well, we willanasia or murder? Yeah yeah, okay. Well, we will look forward to that. Thanks Me too.
Speaker 2:She's like yeah, me too, I have to write a script while I'm in New.
Speaker 1:Orleans. I'll do my research in person. It's going to be live baby, right. So don't miss a beat.
Speaker 1:Subscribe or follow doctoring the truth wherever you enjoy your podcast, for stories that shock, intrigue and educate. Trust, after all, is a delicate thing. You can text us directly on our website at doctoringthetruthatbuzzsproutcom. You can support the show by clicking on the subscriber link to the podcast for as low as $3, $3, $3 a month, you guys, it's not even a coffee and you could support an entire podcast. Uh, we'll give you a shout out on the show. Uh, and we're looking for ways to bring more rewards in the future. This might include exclusive content, early access to episodes, fun merch and more. And we're looking for ways to bring more rewards in the future. This might include exclusive content, early access to episodes, fun merch and more. Please email us your medical mishaps and story ideas, along with any comments at doctoringthetruth at gmail, and be sure to follow us on instagram at doctoringthetruth. Don't forget to download, rate and review so we can be sure to bring you more content, more more content more content next week.
Speaker 1:Until then, stay safe and stay suspicious.
Speaker 2:Why did we just go slow-mo?
Speaker 1:Bye, you be safe and nola, okay, bye I don't know why I do that, because, like I, I'm nowhere near figuring out how to, and I got the sun in my eyes so
