Doctoring the Truth
Welcome to Doctoring the Truth, a podcast where two dedicated audiologists dissect the world of healthcare gone rogue. Explore jaw-dropping stories of medical malfeasance, nefariousness, and shocking breaches of trust. The episodes provide deep dives that latch onto your curiosity and conscience. It's a podcast for truth-seekers craving true crime, clinical insights, and a dash of humor.
Doctoring the Truth
Ep 43-Vengeful Pathologist: the Murderous Anthony Joseph Garcia
A failed residency, a brittle ego, and years of simmering resentment—then two brutal double homicides that stunned Omaha. We unpack the Anthony Garcia case from the beginning, starting with his trajectory through medical school and pathology training at Creighton, the evaluations that documented poor judgment and disruptive behavior, and the dismissal that he interpreted as sabotage. What follows is a meticulous, evidence‑driven breakdown of how a professional grudge turned into targeted violence against the families of physicians he blamed for ending his career.
If you value smart, evidence‑based storytelling at the intersection of healthcare and crime, hit follow, share this episode with a friend, and leave a rating or review. Your feedback helps more listeners find the show and keeps these deep‑dive investigations coming.
Resources:
https://www.nebraska.gov/apps-courts-epub/public/viewOpinion?docId=N00005924PUB
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anthony-garcia-case-lone-star-defense-48-hours/
https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/topic/anthony-garcia
https://apnews.com/search?q=anthony+garcia+omaha
https://omaha.com/search/?q=Anthony+Garcia
https://www.ketv.com/search?q=Anthony+Garcia
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Amanda. Jenna. I'm laughing because I counted to three and then I couldn't find my little recording dot. And then I said, go very clumsily, and I shouldn't be in charge of counting, I think, anymore. You know what? I think we did great. All right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:No, in the end, it really only affects you because you're the one that edits the track.
SPEAKER_00:So oh man, how are you? How you doing? I'm good. Did you have a good turkey day?
SPEAKER_03:Turkey day was good. Adam and I hosted.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow, that's a lot of work. I mean, you're busy growing a whole ass human and you've hosted? Good for you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but just my family, a small amount. Both of our families are very small, so it's not hard to host.
SPEAKER_00:When you say small, like I find it hard to rustle up 10 people for two families. So what are you what do you mean is small? Because in Minnesota. Come on.
SPEAKER_03:No, so my family, I have one sibling who's married, has two kids. So that's a pack of four that comes. A four pack. And then my parents, yeah, a four-pack, and then my parents are a two-pack. And then Adam and I for now are a two-pack plus a four-leg. Um so yeah, four, six, eight people only. Yeah, that's a nice family. If all of us are there, of course, like when my parents will be hosting Christmas at their house, and like my aunts and their families will be there too, but it still is small. Yeah. It's an additional four-pack and an additional two-pack. Yeah. It's tiny.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I guess it all things considered, but like all my aunts and uncles and and cousins and whatever, they're spread all over the show. So honestly, we you know, we we find it hard to wrestle up a dirty dozen. And now that I'm up in the north, the northern hemisphere. Yeah, I I spent basically because you know, when you're new to a job, you have to build up your PTO. So yeah, you know, I Thanksgiving Day drove the six hours, six and a half hours down to almost Iowa to see my parents just across the whole state, Hurt near refused to move north. The selfish, selfish people. But anyway, so for the first time in my life, no time to work on it. I know, right? I normally cook a bunch of stuff. I pride myself on all my little things that I like to make. And I stress out for a week. Oh bless your heart. And I stress out and it's all a thing. I didn't have any time to there's no grocery store near me up here that I'm willing to navigate to on icy roads. So I found one grocery store in St. Peter, not the Pearlie Gates, for those of you who are not from Minnesota, but one Family Fresh grocery grocery store that was open. I mean, even McDonald's wasn't open, but good for them. Anyway, this Family Fresh was open for another 20 minutes as I passed by. Oh so I pulled in and I bought pre-made mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, everything. Everything but cranberry sauce, which apparently my mother forgot to get, and she always has. Anyway, so I'm in line. I'm in line at this grocery store, and it and the the register breaks down, and this poor gal is working on you know Thanksgiving Day. It's like four o'clock or something, and she's supposed to close. The register breaks down. We're like, I don't know, eighth in line, and you know, everybody's just happy that they're able to get some form of sustenance this day. And Savannah, my daughter, had you know, obviously had to bring the parrot Wiffle, which by the way, you're welcome for Wiffle's guest appearance last week on our episode. My mom was like, I could just hear Whipple's Whiffle's contribution in the back, you know, the squeak, squeaks in the background. That was her. So she had Wiffle in her bird backpack, which is basically a backpack with a clear, like, dome over it and a little perch. And so there's this parrot like in the middle of the winter in her grocery basket. And I mean, people in line were not they're not mad about waiting because she took Wiffle out. Wiffle cap called a bunch of people, and it was like this whole celebration in line, and then we were finally like, oh, I guess they're buying groceries when when the register came back back up. So it was a really kind of pleasant moment. But I tell you what, nuking and microwaving those sides, those pre-made sides, a pleasure. There was no stress, it didn't take very long. There you go. Yeah, loved it. There you go.
SPEAKER_03:Maybe new traditions. I'll do it again for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh-huh. I think I need to change my standards.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I'm glad it all worked out and you were able to be with your family still on Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. So, without any further ado, what you got for us? Little mama.
SPEAKER_03:Well, this week we're gonna be talking about a doozy of a guy. I mean, they all are doozies though, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, not in a good way.
SPEAKER_03:No. So no really disclaimers or trigger warnings for this guy. He's just kind of a big joke of a bloke. And all of my uh resources will be listed in the show notes. Per us. If you guys ever look at the show notes, usually I'm super like type A and we'll rename them so it's easy for you guys to click on them if you want. And I only did that I see to three or four of them.
SPEAKER_00:So wait, what? Oh my gosh, you're so much nicer than me. I didn't even realize that was a thing we could do. I just put the XQRs in the case. I usually edit the hyperlink. Oh, good job. Yeah, good job. Anyway, did I skip the gun? Did we? I mean, I mentioned Wiffle was a fan, was a uh participant in last week's audio. I mean there were dogs and there was a lot of clitter clitter clatter of corgi and chihuahua nails on hardwood floor in the background. I apologize. Was that you know what?
SPEAKER_03:I'm just happy you had to have you got to have your fur babies with you in the Northwoods.
SPEAKER_00:I know it was nice, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So you know what? They can do it. Yeah. So anyway, before we move into this douche magosh, we must remind you about Molly B's, Molly Bee's gourmet cookies that are available at Molly Bee's.com, and that's M-O-L-L-Y-B-Z. So her gourmet cookies are known for bringing bold, artistic, small batch craft cookies straight to your pantry. Have you ordered any of these babies yet? Because I got enough.
SPEAKER_00:That's on my TD list because I my problem is I don't know if I'm gonna share them or not.
SPEAKER_03:You're like, do I ship to up north or do I ship to middle?
SPEAKER_00:I know, I don't know. I can't trust like them waiting to the weekend. I'm gonna have to time this or send them up to the woods. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So they're known for melt-in-your-mouth textures, high-quality ingredients, and incentive flavor combinations, which we have gone over before, and they sound absolutely delicious. They are founded by Molly, who's a single mom from Alaska, and the brand has become such a national sensation, y'all, in just three years. Earning features on the Food Network, Martha Stewart Living, and even the Grammy Awards.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:And honestly, what a hat's off to you to be serving your cookies at the Grammy Awards.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03:Thank y'all. So we've talked about her signature creations before, the different flavors. So I'm just gonna say a couple like standouts. The hot mess, which is mango, white chocolate, and hot Cheetos. Pina coladas, which is white chocolate, coconut, and fruity pebbles. That one sounds so good to me right now. Ooh, the boss man. Maple syrup, bacon, whiskey, and white chocolate. I bet are you kidding me?
SPEAKER_00:I bet you that's amazing. I mean, it sounds so weird, but I bet you it's so good. That combination. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03:And I love bacon so much. Bacon! So they are perfect for gifting or indulging. And you know what, you guys, it is gifting season is upon us. We know Jesus is the reason for the season, but we're out here Christmas shopping too. So if you have uh someone that you need to get something for, or maybe a secret Santa or something, or maybe surprise them, yes. Or a favorite podcast or that we can send you a P.O. box. So yeah, don't forget about Molly B's. No breakery trip needed, they're gonna come right to your door. Find them at Molly B's M O L L B Z dot com and enjoy 10% off with our code stay suspicious.
SPEAKER_00:And that's M O L L Y B Z dot com. You got it.
SPEAKER_03:All right, well, you know, from really no time like the present, shall we just uh dive right in?
SPEAKER_02:Let's let's do it. Los Angeles.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Sorry.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, now that tracks will be playing in the back of my mind while I'm reading the entire.
SPEAKER_00:Oh boy, sorry about that.
SPEAKER_03:That's okay. If you guys hear me stumble on reading, it's because you know I'm singing this is how we don't want. Except then the other third of my brain will be singing, but this is not how you do it. Because actually you're supposed to be reading. You're not supposed to be singing.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome. And my mouth will still be reading. Does anyone else's brain do these things? Yeah. Well, first of all, it could it's mama brain, probably, first and foremost. But as an ADHD, proud card carrying ADHD person, I will say, I feel you, I feel you, girl.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. You know, we're just so busy upstairs. I always got five track minds.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, my mind is like the filing cabinet where all the files have been thrown in the air, and I can like see stuff as it's coming down. But don't expect me to concentrate on one file. I'm gonna be looking at the other. Ooh, look at that one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You don't want to miss something good flying by. Maybe something you haven't pulled out in a long time, right? Okay. For real. Los Angeles in the 1970s was a place of contradictions with sun-bleached sidewalks, neighborhoods humming with ambition, and pockets of quiet struggle hidden beneath brightness. That's where Anthony Joseph Garcia entered the world on June 7th, 1973. He was born the first of three children to Fred and Estella Garcia, a working class couple whose lives revolved around routine and responsibility. His father sorted mail for a living, and his mother worked as a nurse. Bless both of those occupations.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:People who knew the family remembered them as stable, unremarkable, and quiet. Nothing in Garcia's childhood announced what was to come. He wasn't a problem child nor prodigy. No school counselors raised alarms, and no teachers reported cruelty, violence, or disturbing behaviors. He moved through early life like a shadow. Present, functional, but hard to get a read on.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, the way you said that, that he moved through his early life like a shadow. How creepy is that? You're such a good writer.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. But even in those early years, a few patterns emerged. He was bright, gifted with sciences, but solitary. A boy who seemed to study people more than he interacted with them. He wasn't the kind of kid fondly laughing on the playground. He was the one watching from its edges.
SPEAKER_00:Are you laughing? I'm laughing because you're swatting a ladybug. Does a ladybug dive bomb my face right at this really poignant moment where you're like talking about this person who's obviously a little bit maladapted? And this ladybug has it in for me. She keeps dive bombing my eyeballs. So I do look like a crazy person. I'm so sorry for interrupting. No, it's okay. I'm gonna keep going. Keep going. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:He did show ambition from early on, though. Medicine seemed to appeal to him in a way few things did. He liked the structure, the hierarchy, and the authority it bestowed. He liked the idea of mastery and he liked the certainty. After high school, he moved deliberately through the milestones, the undergraduate studies, medical school prerequisites, a future mapped out like a ladder only he could climb. He didn't make a lot of friends, but he wasn't interested in that. Medicine rewards discipline, he thought, not charisma, and he had the discipline in spades. This sounds like a surgeon. Sorry. He entered medical school at the University of Utah, earning his MD in 1999. By all accounts, he was competent. He was smart enough, quiet enough, and diligent enough to move through the curriculum without making any ripples. But underneath the surface, something was stirring. Supervisors later described him as someone who had difficulty taking criticism, who had thin-skinned defensiveness and a simmering resentment towards authority. That combination isn't unusual in medicine. Residency programs see it sometimes in trainees who struggle under pressure, but most would eventually grow out of it. But Anthony Garcia did not. If anything, it calcified. After graduation, he took his first residency at Bassett St. Elizabeth Family Medicine Program in upstate Utica, New York.
SPEAKER_01:New York.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, unfortunately, I couldn't find anything more on that. But that is a statement.
SPEAKER_00:Not a good one.
SPEAKER_03:No, no, no. He resigned, and the state issued an administrative warning. So this meant that his name would be flagged if he applied for a state medical license in the future. It was his first fall from grace, the first fracture in a career that needed perfection to survive. And Garcia didn't forget that slight, and he didn't forget it either. He didn't forget it and he didn't forgive it either. I don't know if I read that right, but that is what I meant to say, folks. Even though I'm like, you did this to yourself. But okie dokie. He then pivoted to pathology. He'd be a doctor's doctor, a field that reads disease in tissues and cells, one step removed from living patients. It was a quieter specialty, more analytical, and less social. And for someone like Garcia, it seemed like it should be a refuge, right? Sounds perfect for him. In 2000, he landed in Omaha, Nebraska, joining the Creighton University Medical Center Bergen Mercy Pathology Residency Program. To understand what happened next, you have to understand Creighton, a respected Jesuit medical center with a tight-knit faculty and a program that prided itself on rigor and professionalism. It wasn't a place where excuses were tolerated or where residents could coast through. Garcia stood out early amongst his class, but not in the way residency directors hope for. Notes from attendings described him as difficult, erratic, unprepared, defensive, uncorrected, and increasingly agitated by criticism.
unknown:Dr.
SPEAKER_03:Chandra Butra judged his attitude to be passive aggressive, stating that, quote, Dr. Garcia showed marked lack of initiative and interest. He took no responsibility for his cases. His knowledge of basic histo is very poor. End quote. She also made formal complaints against Garcia to Dr. William Hunter, who oversaw the pathology residency program. He was nope, I gotta start that over. It was the first time she'd ever suggest a pathology resident be suspended. He was the worst resident in my 40 years of teaching. Not good. Right from the beginning, he was adversarial. He did not like me. He was rude in class, and he was quite disruptive in my class, she said. Pathology is a field that demands precision. And when Garcia's evaluations reflected inconsistency and he was confronted about it, he bristled. His first flirtation with actually getting fired happened after an autopsy. Garcia flipped a body face down and left it that way overnight. The problem with this is that positioning a body in such a manner can cause damage to the face. So it violated both Creighton's policies and honestly, just common sense.
SPEAKER_00:Disrespectful as well.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_00:Not to mention like we learned about from our true crime friends. Morbid Lividity can affect many things, right? And it can, I mean you're supposed to be doing an autopsy. Is that the final say? Because you're gonna ruin the autopsy if it needs to be continued or someone else needs to have a look for a second opinion.
SPEAKER_03:So needless to say, the funeral home director was not happy about the whole situation and would go on to file formal complaints with Creighton's Hospital. Faculty members like Dr. William Hunter, who again oversaw the program, and Dr. Roger Brumbach, chair of the pathology department, were names that would later become touchstones of tragedy. They were among those who assessed him. Both men were respected figures in the field, stern but fair. They were the sort of physicians who believed the patient's safety and academic integrity came before a resident's pride, which absolutely. Amen. But Garcia didn't see it that way. In his mind, he was being corrected. He was being attacked. When Dr. Brumbach heard about what happened, he wanted to fire Garcia right away. But Creighton's lawyers would inform the pathology department that Garcia would have to go on probation to follow the university's employment practices. By April 2013, Garcia. By April 2013, Garcia knew that he was on review status, but another incident in the autopsy room was the straw that broke the back. Garcia called the wife of Dr. Hashish, a chief resident who had the day off to take a high-stakes exam. And he had told her that he was missing an important mandatory meeting in the autopsy room. So this prank call caused considerable stress, obviously, to Dr. Hashish, excuse me. And his family, making them, of course, worry, but most specifically for him to worry during the final day of this examination. Tensions began to grow and the evaluations mounted. Meetings with supervisors became combative, and in time he was dismissed from the program. Panelists recommending the dismissal wrote, It represents warranted, it represents unwarranted and unacceptable harassment, and as such, represents unethical conduct that damages and undermines the pathology program. This would be a career-derailing blow for any trainee, but especially devastating for someone as rigidly ambitious as Garcia. He never recovered professionally and he never forgot personally. Still, Garcia would go on to another residency program in Illinois after Dr. Hunter wrote him a brief letter of recommendation, which honestly, how gracious that he even did that. Mm-hmm. I felt that in a different environment he might recover, Hunter said, explaining why he tried to give Garcia another residency spot. The actions he did at Creighton were unforgivable, but maybe in a different environment he might do okay. Garcia moved on to the University of Illinois, Chicago, where he would work for only two years before leaving due to documented or cited poor health, migraine headaches, and depression. Creighton University Medical Center sat quiet against the Omaha skyline, a mix of beige, brick, and fluorescent-lit hallways where medical careers were built block by block and sometimes broken just as quickly. For most residents, it was a proving ground, demanding but fair, as I mentioned before, the kind of place where the weight of experienced faculty guided you through the maze of pathology. But for Anthony Garcia, it was something else entirely. To understand how a residency dispute could evolve into a quadruple homicide, that's right. Spoiler alerts. Oh no! A quadruple homicide is coming. You have to know the people who walked its corridors, the mentors, the critics, the colleagues who had no idea they were stepping into the crosshairs of one man's growing resentment.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh. I have chosen.
SPEAKER_03:Brumbach was respected for his precision, his intensity, and his sense of duty. He wasn't a man who played favorites. Residents often found him intimidating, the kind of attending whose silence during a case review could say more than a 10-minute lecture. He wasn't unkind, he simply expected excellence. Dr. William, or Bill Hunter, younger than Brumbach, but cut from a similar cloth. He was serious, meticulous, and demanding. Hunter cared deeply about shaping residence into competent physicians. To Garcia, though, he represented something dark, a gatekeeper standing between him and the career he felt he deserved. Dr. Chandra Butra and Dr. Heinrich's, and then, of course, others, they were all the faculty members whose signatures appeared on Garcia's evaluations, the ones who documented concerns about his performance. Most barely even interacted with him outside of the department. And none of them imagined their names would later appear in a murder case file. The evaluations. Pathology residencies live and die by the white sheets of evaluation forms and their checkboxes, handwritten comments, assessments of judgment, professionalism, and reliability. These forms aren't meant to punish, rather, they're meant to guide. But again, Garcia did not ever see this as guidance. He saw them as a betrayal. He said that they were racist against him. The reports from Creighton, now part of court records, paint a consistent picture. He was consistently noted to have poor preparation, argumentative response to feedback, angry or defensive reactions, difficulty working with staff, and concerns about judgment and clinical tasks. It wasn't just one report that sank him. It was a pattern of reports. I mean a pile of reports. Right?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, where's the redeeming quality here?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, yeah, I haven't seen one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay. Maybe you have difficulty working with staff, but you've like excellent judgment, or you're great with staff, but not excellent judgment. There's he just sucks at everything.
SPEAKER_03:There's no compliment sandwich, it's just all a dirty, shitty, soggy sandwich.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. A poop sandwich.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, blah. When program directors met with him to discuss the issues, lit witnesses would later recall him as cold, tense, and visibly resentful. He believed that he was being targeted, that others were undermining him. The Creighton faculty were jeopardizing his future. And how dare they? If paranoia had been a low home in his mind before, it was now growing louder. And in the end, Creighton dismissed him from the pathology program, as I already shared. There was no sudden explosion, no dramatic confrontation, just paperwork, a meeting, and a final decision that Anthony Garcia would not continue at Creighton. But as I also mentioned, Dr. Hunter wrote him that letter of recommendation for another program, which I'm like. Let's be thankful here, sir.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:For some residents, dismissal is a detour. It can be painful and even embarrassing, but something that they will survive. They regroup, recalibrate, and try again elsewhere. And this is what Garcia initially did when he was dismissed from the family medicine program in New York, but his dismissal from pathology would prove to be different. He didn't regroup. He brooded and stewed. He held on to the names of those he blamed like they were etched into steel. Dr. Roger Brumbeck, Dr. William Hunter. The two faculty members he believed contributed most to his downfall. The decision cost him more than his pride. It derailed him. Medicine wasn't just a job to Garcia, it was validation. It was a scaffolding, holding up a man who otherwise seemed hollow, and without it, he drifted. As I mentioned, Dr. Hunter's letter of recommendation secured him a spot in Illinois and Chicago, but that he had left after only two years. And then he moved back to his parents' home in Walnut, California. Walnut. He applied for licenses in various states, but the you know the New York disciplinary notice followed him. Which, when I read that, I was like, thank goodness, because that's something usually in our cases that's like this didn't follow you, but it should have.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the states are totally unaware of what's handing their way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So luckily for him, it followed. Not only did the New York disciplinary notice follow him, Creighton's evaluations also followed him. Every credentialing committee saw the same record, a resident who couldn't complete programs and left trails of concern. Garcia was then hired by Dr. Anita Kablinger, then director of the psychology residency program at LSU Health Sciences Center in Louisiana in July of 2007. He remained there only until 2008 when the State Board of Medical Examiners informed him that he might not qualify for a medical license due to the fact that he had not reported his failure to finish the pathology program at Creighton or UIC. The board also notified Dr. Kablinger, who had growing concerns, by the way, about his performance from early on.
SPEAKER_00:It didn't take him long.
SPEAKER_03:He was terminated. Yeah, exactly. He was terminated from the program on February 27th, 2008. So July to February. Which I'm like, you have to put that on every application anywhere.
SPEAKER_00:Right? So you lied. I mean, that's you lied. But also Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So, you know, Dr. Kablinger had met with him and kind of gave him the benefit of the doubt of a conversation of like, hey, anything you want to unveil here? And basically, he told her that the his former bosses at Creighton were racist against him.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I'm gonna ask a controversial question because are there whatever your answer is, it doesn't matter that he's no he's in the wrong here, but is he black?
SPEAKER_03:He's Hispanic.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. But like when you do this kind of stuff and then hold the race card, you're actually hurting your Latino cohorts because you are right? I mean, you're behaving in this way and then saying, Well, I'm Latino, you're racist. Well, it's like, well, no, but they don't behave like like it's like, well, you don't expect that anything. You're letting the Latino community down, you know. Yes. Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_03:So Dr. Koblinger had had also called Dr. Hunter at Creighton and was like, hey, want to shed some light on what's happening. And Dr. Hunter verified all of the reasons why he was termed, and she was like, listen, I'm seeing that too. So anyway, he was an adios goodbye from LSU. His life became a rotation of short-term medical jobs, attempts at re-entering training again and again, and periods of unemployment. He began drinking more heavily, and multiple partners and acquaintances later described him as unpredictable, quick to anger, and withdrawn. He grew increasingly frustrated watching other people's lives continue forward effortlessly, or so it seemed to him. Back in Omaha, the pathology department certainly moved on without him. Dr. Hunter advanced in his career, and Dr. Brumbach remained an influential presence in neuropathology. None of them gave Anthony Garcia a second thought.
SPEAKER_00:Why wouldn't they?
SPEAKER_03:Yep. Exactly. Revenge isn't always a sudden spark, though. Sometimes it's a slow, cruel burn and bitterness that had drug on for years until it hardens into something poisonous. And by the late 2000s, Garcia wasn't a doctor in the traditional sense. He was a man who had tasted failure repeatedly and blamed everyone else for every drop of it. He continued to fixate on those names of the men who once handed him performance reviews.
SPEAKER_02:Yikes. But before we get more into that, it's time for a doo-doo do chart note.
SPEAKER_03:That was different. I felt a little jazzy.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_03:Put a little stank on it.
SPEAKER_00:Hey.
SPEAKER_03:This is gonna be a surprise for all of us because I did it so long ago I don't even remember what my chart note is.
SPEAKER_02:Chart note surprise. Welcome to the chart note segment where we learn about what's happening in medicine and healthcare.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, here we go. Nestled in Cambridge, Massachusetts, the ADA. Oh, yeah, I remember this. Foresight. Institute has long been a beacon of oral health research. It's been a while since we talked about oral health, guys. Had to bring it back.
SPEAKER_00:O R A L for those of us who are in audiology.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:This is about the mouth, baby.
SPEAKER_03:This is about the mouth, not A-U-R-A. It's O-R-A-L. Beyond its reputation for dental science, a pioneering team within its walls is rewriting the story of what dental pulp stem cells can do, not just for teeth, but for the body as a whole. This group has identified a remarkable population of stem cells tucked away at the very tip of the tooth root. Unlike their more common counterparts in the pulp chamber, these apically localized dental pulp stem cells have shown exceptional vitality and regenerative potential. They're adept at forming new blood vessels, surviving harsh conditions, and providing rich molecular signals that kickstart tissue repair. What makes Forsyth? I can't say that. Forsyth? Yeah, no, you that's I feel like that's a last name from where I'm from. Foresight. No, but that's that's how you say it. Well, perfect. Their team's findings are so transformative, and their vision is beyond simply regrowing teeth. These ALDPSCs, which I didn't say before, but Lance's a shortened version, share many characteristics with stem cells used in bone, nerve, and cartilage repair. Their unique origin of neural crest tissue, the embryonic source of various body structures, gives them a flexibility that few other adult stem cells can match. In laboratory experiments, four size researchers have seen these cells differentiate not only into dentin-producing odontoblast-like cells, but also into bone and neuro-like cells. Moreover, the cocktail of growth factors in extracellular vesicles they secrete encourages the formation of new blood vessels and calms inflammation. Two pillars of successful tissue regeneration anywhere in the body. The potential applications are vast. If harnessed correctly, these could help to heal bone defects, regenerate damaged nerves after spinal injury, or support recovery in degenerative tissues. Nope. Because these cells can be obtained with minimal invasiveness, because they come from extracted adult teeth or baby teeth that are naturally shed, they offer a practical and ethically favorable alternative to other stem cell sources.
SPEAKER_00:I knew there was a reason why I would save my kids baby teeth. People make fun of me.
SPEAKER_03:I know how long do we have?
SPEAKER_00:People have made fun of me. Like, why have you got all these teeth around? You look, it's really morbid. I'm like, no, they're my kids' teeth. It's like part of their body. I'm not gonna throw it away. Well, now I have a now I have an excuse.
SPEAKER_03:You're like, this is for stem cells, okay?
SPEAKER_00:But even weirder, I had to hide them like in my underwear drawer and around because you know Well, you want kids to believe in the toothbrush, right?
SPEAKER_03:And then you forget they're not gonna go in mom's underwear drawer.
SPEAKER_00:Right? There's random little teeth all over the show. Bless. Okay. So funny.
SPEAKER_03:So yeah, they this Forsyth Institute continues to refine methods for delivering these cells to damaged dental tissue. They are also actively exploring how the same principles might translate to therapies for heart, nerve, and skeletal injuries. Their ongoing work on bioactive molecules like resolvins have demonstrated enhanced tissue healing in animal models, hinting at future self-re-treatments derived from DPSC secretions. Though clinical trials directly led by this institute are still in early stages, the momentum is clear. This team stands at the forefront of a new era where the humble tooth's stem cells are poised not only to revive damaged teeth, but to become versatile agents of healing across the body. A shining example of regenerative medicines promised, realized.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. Oh my gosh, that's so exciting. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:And don't people always say oral health is the mirror to like overall health? Yeah, absolutely they do. Look at these teeth, just out here fixing things.
SPEAKER_00:I'm definitely pro-dentite. I'm not anti-dentite. We are pro-dentite. Even though we talk about a lot of murders, we're not anti-dentite. We're pro-dentite. Yay! Go to you. Nice. Okay. Back to the store. This is not not boo you, but boo this guy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Boo. Okay. The murders at 5306 North 54th Street, 2008. Before the murders, the victims lived full textured lives. Dr. William Hunter was by then well established in Omaha, respected in pathology, and balancing a demanding career with family life. He lived in Omaha's Dundee neighborhood, the kind of place where people still waved at each other from their driveways, where neighbors know who belongs on their streets, and where children ride their bikes along sidewalks cracked only by time. It was into this quiet, respectable world that a killer stepped on March 13th, 2008. I hate this. The home at 5306 North 54th Street belonged to Dr. William Hunter and his wife Claire and their 11-year-old son Thomas, known to everyone simply as Tommy. Tommy was known for his kindness, a boy who loved video games, friends, and the normal comforts of childhood. They had a housekeeper named Shirley Sherman, who was the kind of woman whose loyalty kept households running. She was hardworking, warm, and loved deeply by her family. None of them knew Anthony Garcia. None of them have had wronged him. But in Garcia's mind, hurting Dr. Hunter meant striking back at the institution that wounded him.
SPEAKER_01:Oh no.
SPEAKER_03:Dr. Hunter, after all, was the same physician who had been a part of the committee that fired Garcia nearly seven years earlier. It was he who had signed off on the termination letter, a document that would later become a symbolic thread tying Garcia to the victims. On that Thursday afternoon, Afternoon, Dr. Hunter was working, as was Claire. Tommy was home from school, and Shirley arrived a little after 1 p.m. to clean, as she had done weekly for years. Someone walked quietly into the home in the middle of the afternoon. No forced entry, no chaotic break-in. Whoever came in knew how to keep calm. And what happened next was brutal. Too brutal for a young boy or a woman whose only mistake was being present that day. The killer stabbed both of them to death.
SPEAKER_00:Oh no!
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. No valuable stolen, nothing vandalized. A few hours later, Dr. Hunter walked into his home to find a nightmare that no parents should ever have to endure. Tommy and Shirley were both dead, both brutally stabbed. The scene was chaotic. The crime looked personal and targeted, but who could or would want to target such rage at an 11-year-old boy and a housekeeper?
SPEAKER_00:Sweet baby Angel and the poor housekeeper. Oh my gosh, this is terrible.
SPEAKER_03:Investigators were struck by the brutality and the ferocity of the attack. Each victim had multiple stab wounds. There was no sexual assault, no robbery, no ransacking. Nothing was taken except the sense of safety in the neighborhood. Witnesses described a heavy set olive-skinned male in the vicinity, correlating him to a silver Honda CRV with an out-of-state license plate. The only unusual detail investigators could identify was the connection to Creighton. Thomas was the son of a pathology professor, but even that seemed like a stretch. Academic disputes don't end in slaughter, after all. For years the police would shift through theories. Was this retaliation? Something random? Personal hit? A case of mistaken identity? The answers remained elusive, and as the weeks turned to months, the case turned cold. And yet, the murders of Tommy Hunter and Shirley Sherman were not isolated. They were just the beginning because someone somewhere watched from afar as the city grieved and detectives stalled.
SPEAKER_00:It's like a horror movie. I can't believe this. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03:There were five quiet years between 2008 and 2013. Garcia lived a transient, unstable life. He continued to drink heavily and he failed to keep jobs. He applied repeatedly for medical positions and was rejected again and again and again. Each rejection affirmed the narrative that he had built. They ruined me, they destroyed my career, and they owe me. By now, his resentment wasn't just towards Hunter. It had widened, deepened, and crystallized. If Dr. Hunter represented the beginning of his downfall, Dr. Roger Brumbeck represented its permanence. The senior faculty member whose evaluations had carried weight, whose name appeared in correspondence about Garcia's problems, and whose influence had closed doors. In 2013, Garcia went back to Omaha. He was seeking the darkest kind of closure. On May 14th, 2013, the next nightmare unfolded, this time nearly 20 miles north of Omaha, in a small, quiet community. In a beautiful two-story home, lived Dr. Rombach and his wife Mary. Like Dr. Hunter, he too had been involved in Anthony Garcia's disciplinary actions years earlier, as we know. And that afternoon, a piano mover and his colleague, so piano mover Jason Peterson and crew arrived at the home where they expected no one to be. They were just moving a piano. And one of the movers noticed a handgun magazine lying in the home's open doorway, and they immediately called the police. Peterson later commented that he saw Brumbeck's body, but he didn't notice any blood. Detectives were dispatched to the Brumbach home where they found that Roger had multiple gunshot wounds and a stab wound to the neck. And Mary had been stabbed to death, apparently with knives taken from their own kitchen.
SPEAKER_00:Oh man.
SPEAKER_03:Detectives immediately thought the murders were similar to the Hunter Sherman murders from years earlier. Their suspicion of a connection between the crimes was reinforced when police learned that Dr. Brumbeck had been a colleague of Dr. Hunter, and the name Anthony Garcia surfaced again. Not as an immediate suspect, but as a possibility. Most crucially, investigators discovered something chilling. All four victims were directly connected to the individuals responsible for his firing at Creighton. Dr. Hunter fired Garcia, and Dr. Brumbach was part of the disciplinary decisions. Tommy Hunter, who was Dr. Hunter's son, his death could inflict pain onto Dr. Hunter, and Shirley Sherman, the Hunter's housekeeper, murdered simply because she was present. This was the motive that investigators had been missing for years. Additionally, they found he had purchased a firearm that would fit the magazine found at the Brumbach's home. Also, Garcia's credit card had been used twice in the area near the Brumbach's house, which we're glad that criminals are idiots. But he's just like cash homie. Hello. Phone records would also later show that a search for the Brumbax address occurred only a few minutes after the alarm sounded at the Butros home. I found conflicting research on like if he went to Butros home before the Brumbax or one before the other. But regardless, the big picture is phone records placed him there. He searched the address and the idiot used his credit card. In July 2013, detectives finally obtained enough evidence to issue a warrant for Garcia's arrest, coordinating with Indiana law enforcement and the FBI to track him. They believed he was responsible for all four murders. And what a great belief that was. The evidence included his vehicle, the Silver Honda CRV, which became central to the investigation, especially after surveillance footage from the Brumbach's neighbors showed a similar car near the crime scene. So they had the magazine that matched the gun he had recently purchased, debit card and cell phone tracking near the residence of the victims. On July 15th, Louisiana State Patrol spotted Garcia's SUV weaving dangerously on the highway. Inside the car, they found a 45-caliber handgun, 50 bullets, knife packaging, alcohol bottles scattered across the seats, an LSU lab coat, stethoscope, employment rejection letters, printed maps, and GPS data from Nebraska.
SPEAKER_00:Did he live in his car? Like, what was the need to bring all this stuff everywhere you go? What a dumbass. Floating around with his beer bottles. What a dumbass. All right.
SPEAKER_03:He's like, I'm not getting rid of my lab coat or my stuff is coming.
SPEAKER_00:And all my rejection letters, so everyone understands the motive along with the murder weapon. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. D-A.
SPEAKER_00:Oh boy.
SPEAKER_03:Raven, that's your dad. Your shadow's freaking her out. If you just heard Raven growls because Adam was creeping in the hallway. Okay. I gotta find where I was again. I gotta move my leg.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So they pulled him over. He had GPS data from Nebraska.
SPEAKER_03:Garcia appeared intoxicated and disoriented, and he was immediately charged with DUI. When officers checked his background, they discovered the act of homicide event. They were like, dude. Let's hold on to you, buddy. Holy shit, we got a big fish here, guys. Not going on for dinner tonight, sweetheart. No, although it appears you may not have a place to go for that anyway. But yes, so the arrest was quiet, anticlimatic, really, for what this case deserved, but it marked the end of more than a decade of spiraling fury. The state of Illinois suspended his medical license within days of the arrest.
SPEAKER_00:Is he gonna murder the whole state of Illinois for taking away? Well, like that, he wouldn't be able to get a medical license. No, but my point is he gets pissed off at anyone who, you know, gives him a couple of things. Oh, sure, sure, sure. I see what you're saying.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, anyway. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. This guy has a problem with uh anger guys.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, a little bit. So his trial began in October 2016 in Omaha, and it was a highly watched and deeply emotional case that brought victims' families back into the painful spotlight. Prosecutors showed evidence from Garcia's home, including a trash bag in the kitchen sink, in which his termination letter from Creighton and handwritten notes with a to-do list that included such items as put tape on your fingers and buy common shoes was found. They also found that when Garcia was in Louisiana, he had owned a silver Honda CRV with a license plate fitting the description of the car seen around the hunter home at the time of the first killings. In addition, his saliva sample matched DNA left behind by the intruder who had tried to break into the Butre house days after the Brumbax were killed. Prosecutors laid out a narrative built on motive, opportunity, and a pattern of revenge. They chronicled Garcia's failures in medical training, his explosive resentment towards Creighton's pathology department, and the years he spent simmering in perceived injustices. Witnesses testified about Garcia's erratic behavior, his violent temper, and his fixation on past slights. Among these witnesses was a woman named Cecilia Hoffman, who was a former stripper in Indiana. She testified that four years after the Dundee murders, when Garcia had tried to pursue her romantically, she attempted to blow him off by saying that she only dated bad boys. According to her statements, Garcia responded by saying he had, quote, killed a young boy and an old woman, end quote.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, not sexy, Garcia. That's not what she meant. Oh boy.
SPEAKER_03:Not quite it, sir.
SPEAKER_00:You missed the mark there, dude.
SPEAKER_03:Red legs be a flying. She wants to talk to you less now, actually.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03:Garcia sat in court largely silent, often slumped and occasionally smirking. And at times he seemed disengaged, and at other times he appeared to teeter on the edge of emotional instability. The prosecution's theory was simple and devastating. Anthony Garcia was a failed physician who blamed Creighton for ruining his career. He murdered the people he believed were responsible and the children or bystanders who happened to be in the way. After weeks of testimony, the jury deliberated less than two days, which I'm like, two days, but whatever. On October 26, 2016, Garcia was convicted on nine counts. Four counts of first-degree murder, four counts of use of a deadly weapon to commit a felony, and one count of felony burglary. Sentencing was initially delayed as the state of Nebraska was set to vote on whether to repeal or retain the death penalty. So in November, the state voted to retain the death penalty. And in September, these months aren't making sense. But basically, it was delayed. They voted to retain the death penalty, and then later a three-judge panel sentenced Garcia to death. Garcia's time in prison has been marked by mental and physical deterioration. He's refused food at times, became incoherent during evaluations, and was repeatedly hospitalized for issues related to self-neglect and alleged psychiatric decline. His defense attorneys argued he was incompetent. The court consistently ruled otherwise. And as it stands, Garcia remains on death row at Tech Tecumseh.
SPEAKER_00:Say who? Tecumseh State Correctional Institution in Nebraska.
SPEAKER_03:Tecumseh State Correctional Institution in Nebraska. In November 2022, the public defender's office began attempts to appeal his sentencing, and by March 2023, he had filed a motion for a new trial calling his previous attorneys a nightmare. In this appeal, Garcia noted 130 alleged errors made during his trial that involved 15 topics, including motions to suppress DNA and digital evidence, ineffective counsel and constitutionality of the death penalty. Luckily, his appeal for a new trial was rejected. The court ruled that, quote, we cannot determine on direct appeal whether counsel was ineffective in certain regards. We otherwise affirm Garcia's convictions and sentences, end quote. Garcia has never expressed remort remorse or guilt, and he has never spoken publicly about the victims. But through evidence, the testimonies, and the devastation left behind, the story of Anthony Garcia is clear. He's a man whose professional failure metastasized into a murderous rage, claiming innocent lives and leaving permanent scars across Omaha's medical community.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my goodness, what a case. I did not see this coming. Good job. Thank you. I have a few questions, but like way in the beginning, it was like, well, even before my question about his career and the beginning of his career, it's like, was he an only, I can't remember now, was he an only child? Like, how did he develop one of three? So how did he develop this narcissistic behavior where he can't take any criticism and he has to always be right and he's thwarting authority? Like it's so strange.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know, because also he was the oldest of three. So I feel like if if any of those personality traits ever do are like fostered or something, it's usually like a younger child who feels like they can't live up to I'm wondering if his younger siblings were like way younger.
SPEAKER_00:So at a period of time when he was an only child where you think you're entitled to everything and you're the bees and knees, and how dare anyone and and what now you're not yeah, and what's his so his mom was a nurse, his dad was a postal worker. Like where's his where is he putting these? Obviously, I appreciate physicians and medical workers of any kind, but like where is he putting this on this pedestal where if he doesn't reach that, he's he's less than? It's almost like it was an attack on his personality if he wasn't able to achieve this. So what set him up to be to where that was I don't think unacceptable to be anything else? Anything right, yeah. Yeah. And also, how bad did this initial infraction that we didn't and I know you don't have the answer, but this initial infraction that banned him from medicine in the first place, and thank God it did because he didn't ha actually touch patients, but he must have done something terrible.
SPEAKER_03:Had to have been, and like your my thought is like, well, geez, he didn't want to go after them, and thank god he didn't, right? Like, we don't want anyone else to have him injured, but like yeah, that was kind of the crux, right?
SPEAKER_00:So that was like the impetus for his his fury, like somehow he was his own worst enemy, and of course, you know, with narcissists, he they're the victims, everyone else is the problem, even though they're the common denominator. But normally you can kind of predict how this was set up and why they're placing such self-worth on this one profession. So there's that question, I'm dying to know, but then also I put messing with hashish pure mean. So I think that was that was a physician. Yeah, I mean, how dare he? And also references. Oh my gosh, it's such a it's such a conundrum because if you have a student who is somebody that you wouldn't want to hire, how do you how do you open their future in a place that might be a better fit for them by giving them a reference that doesn't deny them opportunity? It's such a hard thing. And if you actually just go ahead and give them like a positive review, that's a reflection on you and your own reputation. So there's a lot on the line. So the fact that Dr. Hunter was a victim in all this is like you ungrateful piece of shit. I mean, way that's an understatement because obviously he didn't deserve to die, but like obviously this guy had absolutely no clue what people were doing for him in spite of his personality defect. I mean, he obviously and how much of a personality defect do you need to have to not be able to work with dead people or tissue samples?
SPEAKER_03:Tissues.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I can't this is this is an incredible story, and I appreciate you bringing it up. Shocking. Well done.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. Before we move on to our medical mishap, we have to talk about these leggings that I can't try because your girl's super pregnant. So, someone, please, please, God, tell me how they are. Tana. Tona? Tana. I think you went with Tana. Tauna, activewear, was created by one of Lulu Lemon's original designers, built from Chief Design Officer's experience as a competitive athlete who understands, guys, exactly what female athletes need. The brand focuses exclusively on crafting premium black leggings for girls. Who gym and those who don't designed to be the last pair you'll ever need. Made with moisture wicking fabric and a four-way stretch technology. Tana leggings does deliver a secure, flexible, and ultra-flattering fit that moves effortlessly with every workout or through your everyday. Customers consistently rave about their performance, calling them the best leggings I've ever owned, perfect for every workout or every day. Noting that they stay in place, feel like a second skin, and even work like a push-up bra from my butt.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. My favorite.
unknown:I know.
SPEAKER_03:With 100% fit and happiness guarantee, Tana positions its leggings as the perfect blend of style, performance, and durability. Truly, apparently, the final black legging you will ever need. Visit www.tona-t-o-n-a-active.com for 16% off your order with our exclusive code Stay Suspicious.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I need to push up bra for my butt. I just need to get in there and order this. I think I'm gonna do that and report back to our listeners.
SPEAKER_03:Please do.
SPEAKER_00:Also, your girl's not an athlete, but I move around a bit. I expect my leggings to move with me. So yeah, I think I'm a candidate. So we'll we'll stay tuned. And I and the the discount is is generous. But meanwhile, shall we hear a quick medical mishap before we sign up? Let us do it. All right.
SPEAKER_02:Let us do it.
SPEAKER_00:This message is entitled, Hi Jenna and Amanda. I'm a pharmacist working in a busy urban hospital, and this story has haunted me since the day it happened. One afternoon, during a hectic shift with multiple medication orders flooding in, a nurse came rushing to me with a question about a patient's IV antibiotics. The label on the medication bag didn't seem right. The antibiotic that was ordered was vancomyosin, but the label said vancophylline, which is a completely different drug that's used for respiratory issues and not bacterial infections. I immediately pulled a medication from the floor and double-checked the orders and pharmacy records. Turns out, due to a mix-up in the compounding room, two medications with similar names and similar packaging had been swapped. Good catch. That nurse caught it just in time before it was administered to the patient with potentially deadly consequences. If that medication had gone into the patient's ID line, the consequences would have been severe, including respiratory distress and cardiac complications. We trace the error back, quarantined the batch, and implemented stricter labeling protocols. Well done. And this is an instance where nobody needs to be blamed. You just figure out what the system error is and you fix it. It's nobody's fault. Yes. It's like, okay, well, this whatever we're doing, it looks too similar. Let's change it. Nobody needs to get thrown on the bus about this. I love, I love that this situation, at least as far as we know, isn't mentioning any punitive action. The writer goes on to say, that day reminded me how fragile the chain of safety really is, and how easily one small error could cascade into a life-threatening event. I still think about that patient and the dedicated nurse who caught the mistake before it was too late. Yours truly, a hospital pharmacist who sees the fine line between safety and catastrophe. Bless your heart. Bless your heart pharmacist and bless your heart nurses and everybody else who stands up to point out safety issues because that's the only way we get better. That's the only way we save lives. Well done.
SPEAKER_03:All right. What can we expect to hear next week from you, Jenna?
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, I feel like we've heard a lot about murderous doctors, dentists, nefarious nurses. But I'm gonna flip the coin a bit and we're gonna talk about some potentially disastrous patients. Yeah, baby. We're talking some dirty patients, some dastardly patients. I am I don't know if it'll be patients or a patient, but I have a handful, and it's really scary that I have to pick from them as we're providers that have to deal with patients and yikes. But yeah, let's we're gonna go on a journey. So I hope everyone stays tuned and buckles up for next week.
SPEAKER_03:I'm excited.
SPEAKER_00:But meanwhile, don't miss a beat. Subscribe or follow Doctoring the Truth wherever you enjoy your podcast for stories that shock, intrigue, and educate. Trust, after all, is a delicate thing. You can text us directly on our website. There's a little purple thing that says text us, and that is a link. Text us. Text us. And and it links to our website at doctoringtruth at buzzsprout.com. You can email us any story ideas. We've been taking listeners and sponsors story ideas. So send them over, guys. We're really open to suggestions. And our email is doctoringthe truth at gmail. If you follow us, follow us on Instagram at Doctoring the Truth Podcast, on Facebook at Doctoring the Truth, and we're on TikTok at Doctoring the Truth while TikTok is still around. And Ed Odd Pod. E-D A U D P O D. We may have to get on Vine, the new recreation of Vine. Yes, they're bringing it back, girly. It's coming. Vine's coming back. Yes. And they're not going to allow AI and stuff. So that'll be cool. So anyway.
SPEAKER_01:I never know anything that's going on. Just let me know what I should think about.
SPEAKER_00:But honestly, guys, I've had some listeners approach me and be like, well, we're afraid to make comments, whatever. Oh my gosh, if we could get a few comments, it would show that people are actually listening because we know you are. We hear from you, we see your downloads. So leave us a uh at least a comment of some kind or at least rate and review uh wherever you listen.
SPEAKER_03:And can they make like a username when they do it? So it doesn't have to be their name so here.
SPEAKER_00:No, it doesn't tell us. It doesn't tell us. No, you just put whatever you want, but it's Apple, it's Spotify. Our primary users are Apple and Spotify, but we have cast box and all kinds of places that you can leave a review wherever you listen. Um it just shows that we're out there. I mean, it doesn't have to be. I mean, if it was you know, five out of five would be amazing, but you know, let's be realistic. Maybe maybe one wiffle the parrot squeaking in the background. It's a 4.5. I get that.
SPEAKER_03:But you know, just just we get it. We're not gonna hold a grudge like Garcia, okay?
SPEAKER_00:Let's generate some traffic so we can show that we're out there and other people can enjoy and we can keep going and keep motivated to do this because we love it and we love our listeners. So until you leave us a review, until you listen. Until then. Stay safe and stay suspicious. Bye. Just stay suspended. You know what I was doing? I was poking, I was still going.
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