Thrive & Decide Guide to Divorce and Beyond

From Toxic Ties to Renewal: Jamie's Journey of Resilience, Healing, and Empowerment

• Sarah Thress • Season 1 • Episode 4

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Can navigating a toxic relationship ultimately become a catalyst for personal transformation? Join us on Thrive and Decide this week as Jamie, our courageous guest, shares her harrowing journey through a marriage marked by manipulation and control. From societal conditioning that encouraged people-pleasing to the explosive outbursts of her ex-husband, Jamie opens up about the tumultuous path she walked. Her story isn't just about surviving—it’s about finding strength in vulnerability and turning painful experiences into a beacon of hope for others trapped in similar cycles.

Jamie doesn’t shy away from the complexities and emotional hurdles she endured, including an unexpected pregnancy and the heartache of parental alienation. Her candid reflection on these challenges reveals deep insights into the human spirit's resilience. We explore the psychological warfare of gaslighting and the heart-wrenching estrangement from her son, all while emphasizing the importance of familial support and self-discovery. Jamie's experiences underline the critical need for emotional healing and the reclaiming of one’s voice against the backdrop of toxic family dynamics.

Finally, our conversation takes a hopeful turn as we highlight the transformative power of therapy and supportive communities. Whether it's through the catharsis of journaling or the guidance of mental health professionals, the journey from survival to empowerment is paved with self-awareness and boundary-setting. Jamie’s story is a testament to overcoming adversity and nurturing a renewed sense of self-worth. Tune in for an insightful conversation that not only sheds light on the dark corners of narcissistic relationships but also inspires hope and healing.

Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.


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Speaker 1:

Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and Decide. This week, we are joined by Jamie, who is going to share her story. You know, she's very graciously decided that she will share her story, and what I love about it is that you know she dealt with a situation that I think a lot of people out there are dealing with, and you know, I just really wanted her to come on and talk about, you know, the toxic, narcissistic relationships she went through, things she did to, you know, get through it and to heal. She now is, you know, thriving and doing so much better, and so I just really wanted her to come on share her story so that anyone out there listening that maybe is stuck in a relationship like this. You know you're not alone Uh, you're not the only person, um, and there's no reason to feel shame or anything with this relationship. So, jamie, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2:

I really appreciate it. You're welcome. I'm so glad to be here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. So, um, I guess just I don't know where you want to start, but if you'd like to share, you know kind of how you met and you know your relationship and how it kind of developed and you know, I I highly doubt that the narcissistic things were coming out when you were dating or else you wouldn't have married him, or maybe you would have, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think that, and there's really a pre-story to that that I have found is, I know I was really conditioned as a young female to people please, to man, please, to be that person that would be the most attractive in every way, which a lot of the times was to not use my voice and to shrink and just be small. I watched my mother do it, I watched my three sisters do it, and that was just the norm at the time. Yeah, my parents being the last of four girls, my parents weren't really engaged with at least two of us and I get that now because I couldn't have had four children, but it was my sister just next to me in age. We were kind of left alone a lot, and all they really wanted was for us to get married to a good provider. Now my dad wanted us to go to college but, more importantly, to marry a man that could handle the finances, because the message was we probably couldn't do that or do it as best we could, and so that just kind of became the goal for us. We thought that was the end all, and so they really liked my ex-husband.

Speaker 2:

I had dated other people that had different religions and they weren't okay with that. They are very kind of evangelical Christian people my dad's no longer here but very kind of like this is the only way and they need to be white Anglo-Saxon. You know, that's my parents.

Speaker 2:

And so they thought he was great. Plus, he owned his own business. They thought he was going to be a really good provider. So I'm like I guess I found it right. I guess I found it, yeah. And then you know, fast forward.

Speaker 2:

There were a lot of red flags in the relationship and I won't go into all of them, but looking back now and I don't blame myself, no, I think that this is so normal from talking to so many people, and I want to normalize it because when you don't, it feels shameful. And so we, especially women in the society, have been conditioned to believe things and to just go with the flow and try to please, and that's what I was doing. So every time something did happen and he would look at me like I was weird and say you're just overreacting. You know why are you so insecure? Well, I know now that was covering for probably the other things he was doing with other women at the time, and I always had those feelings the time, and I always had those feelings and he was always kind of making me feel jealous and it was hard, but he made me feel like I was crazy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so anyway, we got married and literally the honeymoon was over the day we got back from the honeymoon, literally and figuratively, because he was a person that didn't use credit cards. A plus for that was there was never debt, right, that's good, right. But this was extreme. And so I had a credit card in my name and I had put our what? Some of our wedding expenses on it. So I came home and there was a bill for $1,600. He opened it and I he flew into such a rage and picked up a kitchen chair and threw it across the room and it splintered into like five or six pieces. Wow, and I remember thinking I never want to see this behavior again. I never want to see this. It's just so scary. And so he took my credit card and he put me on a budget and I had to start giving him all of my paychecks. And I did that because I thought he was taking care of me, right.

Speaker 1:

Because you had been conditioned that that's what the man does. You give them the money and he knows what's best for us. Yep, so he's going to you know, well, here's your money for this, but oh no, you can't do that Like. That's how we were conditioned.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, ugh yeah. And so I mean I hardly had enough money to buy my own lunch, and every time I would buy groceries, he's like, well, you're, you're not shopping at the right places, this is too much money. I mean it was hypercritical. Um, so uh, that was happening. And then we had our first child, um, and I realized very quickly there that I was going to be the one doing the labor. Well, it's women's work, so many women do. I had an emergency C-section and the day I got home it was hard for me to get out of bed still, and so he slept with me and the baby was there, and when she started crying he got mad at me because he had to go to work, and so he left and went to another room and I really just needed him to help get the baby to me because of my incision. So there were things like that, you know, in the marriage and the control increased.

Speaker 2:

And so I didn't have this language back then, but it was really financial abuse. I stayed at home with the kids. I had my second child they were about two and a half years apart. I stayed at home until my well. I worked part-time after my daughter was born and then I stopped and I stayed at home until my son went to first grade and then I was very fortunate. I knew I needed to work because I needed money, went to first grade and then I was very fortunate. I knew I needed to work because I needed money. There was never enough money for me to buy groceries.

Speaker 2:

I often would be in a grocery store in a wealthy community putting groceries back, saying I can't, I need to take off these four things because I didn't have the money to pay for it, because he would always give me cash, wow. So it's kind of doing like the price is right all through the grocery store. Right, because it was really embarrassing. Yeah, toting two small children around saying I can't buy this, I can't buy that, yeah. So I'm like I can't do this anymore and I started to become the queen of workarounds, which is good and bad. Yeah, because when you are, you are enabling that person to continue and increase the abusive behavior, mm-hmm. So I knew by working I could pay for my children's clothing, groceries, I paid for their extracurricular activities, any kind of need that they have I was usually able to pay for. And they were absolutely afraid to go to their father to ask for money. And I had them saying things like Dad will never let me get another pair of shoes. And I'm like, well, okay. And so, in order to protect them, I said we'll do this together, right Again, enabling him, yeah, but I don't blame myself. I was protecting my kids from some harshness and for some trouble, you know, from some trouble.

Speaker 2:

My daughter was diagnosed with autism. I knew that, you know, something was up when she turned around six and he was just in denial about everything. Of course I wanted to do therapies. I was, you know, my head just was down and trying to understand what autism was and what therapies to do. And he wouldn't pay for therapy. He didn't think it was necessary. So, again, I was the queen of workarounds. I went down to the Franklin County Developmental Disabilities Board and they approved her for a community waiver for $5,000. So now I had access to $5,000 every year to do therapies and I would get a list of providers and I would have to call them and see if you know that would work. Yeah, so I ended up driving all over the city because it was a list I had to work on, work from. So that was really. I mean, did I want to leave in my marriage all the time? Um, but I had my kids and I. I I was like I'm trying to keep this family intact.

Speaker 2:

I mean it was never intact. But I was trying to keep it looking that way, yeah, and all the time I would feel like people couldn't find out about, like if people saw what's going on in here, I think they would think that was awful. But I never wanted to believe it because If I started to really believe it, I then would be unable to stop seeing it and that would lead to something that I didn't want in terms of our marriage and separation. So I didn't look at it. Yeah, so a lot of financial abuse. My ex-husband was actually diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder by one of our therapists, but and another therapist also also handed me an article about narcissism, and so this one therapist said I, I can't help you because your husband actually doesn't know how to love you. It's, it's part of this. You know disorder, yeah, and I'm like of this. You know disorder, yeah, and I'm like I didn't.

Speaker 2:

At that point I was 47. I had become pregnant unexpectedly, oh wow, and I went into a major depressive episode. Yeah, because all the things I was trying to hold together just collapsed, like my house of cards just fell to the ground, yeah, and I couldn't move and I thought I cannot do it. I cannot do this. I cannot have another child. I cannot be with him. I was just a wreck. Yeah, my sisters came around to support me. My ex-husband thought it was crazy and wanted to institutionalize me. What he? That's what he told our therapist Wow, so, um, he was obviously not helpful, right.

Speaker 1:

Cause, clearly, you're in this, like this crazy situation where you know you weren't trying to get pregnant and now you are, and now all the things that you've been doing to protect your kids into, like, you know, just one more day. Just one more day. You know, just like, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, I'm going to get there. And then, all you know, this happens and it just blows your world up and what you need is what your sisters were giving you, which was the love and support and the help, and what he was giving you was not helpful at all by, you know, making you feel crazy, making you sound crazy, talking about institutionalizing you instead of being like, wow, yeah, this is not what we planned, but like, what, what can we do together? How can I help you, you know, to get through this Right.

Speaker 2:

There's none of that. I mean even told my sisters what's wrong with her. Why is she acting like this? You know, and I was it was major depressive disorders. It was the scariest thing I've ever gone through. Yeah, I felt like I was never going to get better and it just so happened. You know, I'm 47. So they did an ultrasound and found that the egg never did implant. Oh okay, and so I had to have a DNC. The egg never did implant, oh okay, and so I had to have a DNC. Um, and I was obviously incredibly relieved I hate to say that, but that's just where I was at the time Um, and um, and I think that's okay, like that's.

Speaker 1:

Another thing that I would like to make sure is normalized is that there are things that people have to make a decision about and you make the best decision that you can with all of the details that you have at that moment. Yeah, and that's it, and you do what's best for you. Um, so I think that's another thing that I would really like to normalize is just that don't feel the shame around what you did to take care of you and your body and your family, and it's not like it was a viable pregnancy anyway.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it wasn't. I mean, it wasn't the. Actually it had already passed, but they needed to do this for medical reasons, for sure. Which is where we are in our country right now is backwards, right, but I would have died if I didn't have that Exactly, or go on septic or something. So anyway, so that was done, but he didn't come to the DNC with me.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I hope your sister or somebody did. My sister did, okay, good.

Speaker 2:

And it was so much better to have her there. Yeah, it was so much better to have her there, yeah, so you know, then there was a lot of just psychological and emotional abuse. I didn't have those words back then, but even my children, we would be gaslit so much and they would say why does dad do that? Why does he always say that didn't happen, or I didn't say that, or you know, just denying our reality. And again, we didn't know that word. But that's what was happening all of the time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, um, after I had that miscarriage, um, I decided to go back into therapy and I had been in and out of therapy for years and, um, I decided that I was going to start using my voice more good, and so I would start saying no to things I would.

Speaker 2:

His family was felt very toxic to me and I would take my own car so I could leave when I wanted to leave. I started to do things to take care of myself, but what I didn't see happening was the grooming of my children, you know, in terms of how he was treating me. And later in the marriage, things started to get worse, because I was starting to be my own person and realizing that I abandoned some really core values when I was married to him. Uh, in terms of the conversation in my house about other people and other people groups, um, just the statements that were racist and misogynistic, yeah, I allowed, I just put my head down and I started realizing that, like I can't do this, yeah, I can't do it. He didn't like that. I was coming out of my little box.

Speaker 1:

That was a big problem, and so things started to get worse, as my husband, my husband, god, it's such a habit to say, like my husband, like when, especially when you go back to like, share your story, because you almost go back to that time and that's that's how you knew them.

Speaker 2:

Right, well, I actually was going to say my son. That's why it was even weirder.

Speaker 1:

And that's okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, um, he and I had a very close relationship and you know he would say things to me like Mom, I'm so glad to have you, because I don't know if Dad's ever really loved me or been proud of me, and that's soul crushing. It was soul crushing, but I didn't explore it with him. It's one of my major regrets. I didn't get curious. I would say things like oh, I know he does.

Speaker 2:

You know I mean I would try to reinforce that he did and he just acted in different ways. And he even my son, even to me. I started to, my depression started to increase again and my ex-husband was really again not paying any attention to me because he thought it was so awful and weird and he would always say things like you're not praying enough, you don't have a good relationship with God. So the spiritual stuff was always a thing. I was never good enough. And so my son came to me and he said, mom, what's wrong? And I said I'll be okay. I think I just my depression is increasing. And he said, mom, you know you can't talk to dad about that, but you can talk to me about that. And the next day he came home with flowers for me.

Speaker 2:

Now, I've never received flowers in my marriage, never received a card, even though I asked time and time again. There was nothing he put into the marriage and I hate to sound so extreme, but I really have a hard time recounting things. Yeah, yeah, there was one time when he was well, he was in a Bible study because he was a very godly man. Oh, clearly, yeah, yeah, and a lot of those men would just really prop each other up. So they just decided to have a challenge, which now is so hilarious to me. Their challenge was to buy their wife, their wives, flowers on Valentine's day. I'm like you really need a challenge.

Speaker 2:

That's the challenge. Wow, right, wow. So I got flowers and I'm like you know what's this? And he said, well, it was a challenge. I'm like mm-hmm. But they were flowers that weren't wrapped in anything, they were just kind of flowers. They weren't like there was no cellophane or bows and they looked a little wilty. So the next day they were completely dead and I said, you know, look at these. I said you might want to go get your money back, yeah, and he's like, oh, yeah, he took them, and that was it. Like I didn't get new flowers, that was it.

Speaker 2:

So even you were calling a thing yeah, was never really a thing. So you know, I could. You know, marriages like this are like really small and large paper cuts until you're bleeding all over the place. Yeah, you know, I could. I could tell you things that happened all of the time and you'd be pretty shocked.

Speaker 2:

Um one time we were driving across the country and we stopped at a place so I could look at some healthier options to eat, because I didn't want fast food, right, and it was kind of like a truck stop, but they had a place where you could buy some groceries, if that makes sense, yeah, so I'm looking for things and, um, they're, I think, in the car, my phone's in the car, and I come out and they're gone and I was so horrified and embarrassed and scared that I just I looked at people and then I just kind of walked back in and pretended I was looking for things. I looked at people and then I just kind of walked back in and pretended I was looking for things and I kept looking out and about 20 minutes later the car pulls back up and I come out. I'm like what just happened, right? And he's like, oh, don't be ridiculous, we wanted to get our stuff so we could get on the road. I said my phone was in this car. Why didn't anyone come in and tell me no, nothing, I mean just this kind of stuff. But it's always like you're making too big of a deal out of this. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2:

So when, towards the very end of my marriage, um, my sister was in transition, so she lived with us for about four months and she came to me after about four months and said I can't live here anymore. I cannot see what they do to you, how they treat you, because then my kids were also ganging up on me. It was like three against one and mom's the scapegoat, um, and so things are really heating up. Um, the money. You know, I remember I I cooked five nights a week and and one time I'd run out of money. I was completely out by about, you know, seven days before the month was over and I asked him for some money and he said you know, we haven't had enough meals at home for you to be out of money. And it was just all those cuts, right. I mean, it was so hard.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, because you hear that and you, being the person that you are, you internalize that and you're like, oh my God, I suck, like I should have, I should have gotten more groceries, like you know, I should have made this, or I should have done that, like, and no, none of that is your fault and I hope that you've realized that now that you know, like that is not, that's not on you, that is a reflection of him and his narcissistic behavior Right, gaslighting the shit out of you Right, and although I do, because I I mean it's my business now I am, I mean my therapist like know more than most of my colleagues about narcissism and I can intellectually know that, but I still suffer from the gaslighting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's still hard for me sometimes. I mean I had to ask my sisters for permission to buy things when I left my marriage. I couldn't do it alone. Marriage, I couldn't do it alone. But the crescendo to all of this was my son was. He was a senior, I think, and he we had a little place out in the country and my husband would go there every weekend and we used to do that, but my kids really wanted to stay at home, for sure they're teenagers, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so he would always go, he would always go without us. And one time, you know, I was going to a pre-party for my son's prom was senior year and you know how they take pictures and everything, and so I was getting ready to go. It was a Friday night and I I asked my ex-husband. I said you know, are you ready? And he's like I'm not going to that, I'm like it's his senior prom. He's like yeah, I went, nothing to do with that. And he left and I went on my own. I've come to find out. I think there was somebody involved with him and even my son said do you think dad's having an affair? Said, do you think dad's having an affair? Of course I'm like, oh no, I think he was. Like I could look back through some records and I have some, but I don't really even care about that part, right? Um, so I had planned my son's senior spring break with some of his buddies.

Speaker 1:

It was the first time I wasn't with my daughter and I love my daughter so much with my daughter and I love my daughter so much, but it could be stressful, of course, um, anytime you have a child with special needs, it is, and that is another thing. We've found a lot of things that we need to normalize here, but it is normal to feel overwhelmed and sadly, we as moms and as women, we feel shame if we feel overwhelmed at having to take care of our child. But guess what? It's normal, it's a hundred percent normal. I mean, my kids don't have special needs and I still get overwhelmed where I'm like, oh dear God, like I just need to run away, be in a hotel by myself, oh my gosh, Like I can't. This is just too much Right.

Speaker 2:

Yes, but I was told that I was being ridiculous. Of course you were, and that I was weak. Yeah, and you know, just again, you're not praying hard enough. So and I knew being with those boys would be really hard on her. So I'm like we got on vacation. It was the first morning. We're in a house with a pool. I stepped out back with a cup of coffee. I'm like, oh, I was ready to just relax. I sat down, he's on the phone, he gets off the phone, he looks at me and he says what are we doing? I said I'm just having my coffee and he said, no, I mean, I want a wife that agrees with me politically and theologically and this marriage is not sustainable for 20 plus years.

Speaker 2:

And I just again, that was the last Jenga piece you know it was like that was the last Jenga piece, you know it was like tumbled to the ground. Yeah, I was out. Now, what he meant by those two things was this is 2016. And I was not going to vote for Donald Trump yeah, a personal decision because of how he treated women and folks with disabilities. Yep, so I was out and he was very angry at me for that and embarrassed Because I would post things about, you know, voting for Hillary Clinton, right, and he was so embarrassed by that. And my nephew is gay and he was getting married and I was going to go to the wedding and he said you should not go to that, our children will not go to that, because you know, it was sinful, of course, right, so I was going to go, and he was so angry about those two things that I started.

Speaker 2:

I really started to disassociate. I think now that I understand what that means, I felt like there was a I split, like there was a woman inside me saying get the hell out and start doing something. And she was, and I felt the other woman, almost watching her from above, a little bit Like who are you? And that was my shadow self. That always helped me stay in the situation and I know that was a survival mechanism, right, yeah, just to dampen everything, so I wouldn't leave. And I just went forward, went forward. So I knew that we had money. We had three houses. I knew we had money. Yeah, I never saw any of it, but I knew we had it.

Speaker 1:

Well no, you were overspending at the grocery store. Well, yeah, I was busy, that's why you didn't see it we were having filet every night and crab, of course, those lobster tails crab legs.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

All that yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I and I think this is also very normal for a lot of women I never saw a financial account, never. I never talked to a financial advisor, I never signed a tax return, I never saw anything related to that and I thought he was just taking care of me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So again this is like several months before our marriage ended he came to me and he said you know you weren't around and I needed something signed to move some money. And the bank says they don't think it's your signature because I wrote your name, I signed your name, so I need you to talk to them on speaker with another representative and tell them that that's you. And again, I had learned to use my voice more and so I said well, what do you mean? I'm not around, I live with you, right, and it's not OK for you to do that. You can never sign my name again. I'm really angry. And again, he made very little of it, of course, and so I had. I was on a call with two banks and I said to him you know, if they asked me if I signed it, I'm going to say no, but if they asked me if I could, it's okay to move the money, I will say yes. And so they asked me if it was okay to move the money and I just said yes. So I protected him. Then, right, come to find out. You know he's set up all these financial accounts in my name which I've never signed for, and I think he did that a lot, I think, to protect his business. You know there was any, you know, so I get that. But I all of the statements were sent to his office with my name on it, so he was opening the mail and all of that. So when we I'm like I'm done.

Speaker 2:

You know, we started talking about separating. He sat me down and he said the only way this will work is if you take this much money and don't get an attorney. And I'm like what do you mean the only way this will work? Because I think it would be important for me to get an attorney Right. I don't know the full scope of things, I don't know what our liabilities are, and he was angry about that. And I questioned him about the amount because I thought that amount really doesn't seem like it would be fair, right?

Speaker 2:

So then my kids were starting to adjust to the news and my son came to me and asked me to go to dinner. He had just turned 18. He was going to go off to college and he said to me at dinner mom, I've seen the settlement that dad's offering you. I don't know why he would see a settlement Right. I mean he was just 17,. Just turned 18. Well, why would your child see that? And he said if you don't take that and if you get an attorney, I won't be able to talk to you until this is over. Oh, and Sarah, I didn't believe him. Yeah, you know, I'm like. I'm like what are you talking?

Speaker 1:

about. Well, cause, you have to wonder, like who the hell like made him think like that? Or did his dad say, hey, you see you, now that you've seen this, like you know, if your mom does this, like you can't talk to her, or whatever, like he actually started to coercively control my son and manipulate him.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure he threatened him with not you know many things Right.

Speaker 1:

Not paying for something, not doing something, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Not loving him anymore. Yeah, and I was always the safe parent, so I just kept going. I don't know what you're talking about, honey, I will always be here. And he did it once again when I was in court. Right after court, my sister and I were in the car together and he called and I had him on speaker and he's like I know. His father called him right after he left and so he said why can't you just settle this? Just take the offer. Don't you think I want a relationship with my mother? I'm like I said, honey, I don't understand what you're saying. You have a relationship with me, what are you talking about? But he wouldn't go into it. Yeah, so, um, anyway. But he wouldn't go into it. Yeah, so um, anyway.

Speaker 2:

I went through this and my son got angrier and angrier. I mean, I saw him in fall while he was in college and by christmas time he was really poisoned. Yeah, um. And when I found out what our assets were, my ex was offering me 8%. Jesus, yeah, and full well knowing I would be supporting our daughter. Right, she lives with me. There's, you know, it's, it's, there's things associated with that that I would always have to pay for, and so it was a two-year high conflict divorce. My ex-husband would be intimidating during that time. He would send me threatening mail. He had put a gun in my daughter's lunchbox and she came home and opened it and of course really freaked out For sure and he's like you're overreacting. I was just putting it there for storage.

Speaker 1:

Right In her lunchbox. In her lunchbox, I mean, that's where I store my stuff too, my kids' lunchboxes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what? Yeah, it was to intimidate me, of course, yeah, and so I got a security person for a while. That's when I found out about this other woman that was living at a place that he owned and, um, after I got one of those properties, she left and went to lived at another place that he had. So you know, I'm like whatever, that means nothing to me, um. So, um, then it was right before trial, we were going to go to trial and he was deposed.

Speaker 2:

And my attorney says to me later I've never heard anyone say this before in all of my time as a family law attorney, and she did a lot of high conflict divorce and she did a lot of high conflict divorce. So when he was being deposed, she asked him if he knew that he was not supposed to come and take checks to my front door because I didn't have money and he had to give me money every month. Yeah, so he would just come peer in my windows, take the check on it, and I was always just so anxious and scared. And so he said, yeah, I'm aware of that. And she. He said, but she's stealing my money. And she said did you say stealing? And he said, yeah, she is, and I think right after that they offered a different settlement. I'm sure his attorney was like dude, you can't go on the record.

Speaker 1:

You can't say that.

Speaker 2:

And if you say that to a judge, it's not going to go well for you. Yeah. So we settled that weekend and I got about 40%. I was going to say I hope for more than 8%. Yeah, but it was funny as I would have settled for 30. Yeah, but I think at that point is Lori was like you want to, if she's going to get 50, if you walk in the courtroom, yeah. And shortly after that my son called me and this is the sad, saddest part of my story, the most confusing part of my story. He told me that I had hurt his father so much. His father was such a good man and he was not going to talk to me anymore. And it's been seven years.

Speaker 1:

Oh God, I'm so sorry, and you still haven't talked in that entire seven years. Oh.

Speaker 2:

We emailed one time. I mean I will say I still email him, I still text him, I still send cards, I still text him, I still send cards, I sent care packages. I will always be his mom, for sure, but he's still living with his dad and now he's 25, four years out of college and I'm sure it feels very beholden to him. Yeah, um, the one time he answered my email was when I wanted to say I wanted to buy him a graduation gift and he quickly said well, you can give me money and you can Venmo me, which, again, if you know narcissism, it's. Narcissists are so sly and strategic and they build narratives way before something happens. It's unbelievable. Yeah, like they have this playbook of what they can do to smear you and to make themselves look like the victim. Yeah, and so you know the narrative was to smear you and to make themselves look like the victim. Yeah, and so you know the narrative was I was greedy, I was cheating and I was a liar. And actually I got three settlement checks after that and he would mail them to me and on on the envelope it would be addressed to the dragon devil and on the notes section of the check it would say liar cheat thief, and I would go to the bank and deposit those for sure, and they would just look at me like I'm sorry. But the last one was really awful because it said all the things and then there was a post-it note on it that said I hope this was worth losing your son over. He just outed himself.

Speaker 2:

I mean, you know there's something you may have heard called parental alienation. Yeah, there's something you may have heard called parental alienation. Yeah, no-transcript, but it's really just a set of behaviors to coercively control your child. Yeah, to not be with the loving parent. You'll always see the loving parent on the rejection side and the toxic parent on the alienating side. Yeah, and there's different degrees of it. This is pretty severe parental alienation. Yeah, different degrees of it. This is pretty severe parental alienation. And now you know he has his own agency. I know that People talk about that. So I also know that there's a ton of pathology and psychology here for my son, because I heard it when he was growing up. You know I heard how much he wanted a relationship with his father and you know I think there's a real attachment style issue for my son and you know he would never seek therapy. His father thinks it's ridiculous to go to therapy.

Speaker 2:

Oh of course, such a waste of money. Yeah, so that's what's going on for me, and my daughter still lives with me, she's 27. And you know, for a while it was really hard for her to go back into that environment and then come home, because every time she did I felt like she needed to go through a car wash because of the toxins that would attach to her yeah, it's like you needed to sage her.

Speaker 1:

Like the second, she walked in the door right and she was struggling.

Speaker 2:

I mean, autism helped her in the way that she has very black and white thinking. So she's like what you're saying about your mom, my mom is not. So not true. Yeah, like my mom is this, and so it helped her kind of go. I'm not believing that narrative, but she still was pulled in and so she's now to the point where you know, working with a therapist, that she understands what boundaries are, she knows how to protect herself Things don't happen nearly as much as they do but she doesn't have a relationship with her brother Because, you know, her father would say, well, you talk about your mother and he doesn't want to hear about that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so it's so heartbreaking and it's heartbreaking to know that your ex-husband has so much hate inside of him and so much narcissism inside of him that he would validate and make it be okay that your son would not talk to you Like it's. It's horrible and it's heartbreaking and I'm so sorry that that's what you're going through. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've been through a lot of therapy. Yeah, I mean, for a while I needed to see her twice a week. Yeah, I was a wreck, and you know, I know. Now, when I am just, I just need to really go cry, you know.

Speaker 1:

When I think, you know, I was talking with Chris, who's a mutual friend of ours. I was talking with her the other day and I said you know, that's one of the things that you know I really want women to, to understand and to normalize again. We're normalizing. It's okay. If you feel sad, throw yourself the damn pity party, have the pity party, eat all the things that make you feel good, cry it out, grab the Ben and Jerry's, watch the shit television. Whatever it is that you need to do to throw that pity party.

Speaker 1:

Don't shove down the feelings. Don't say, oh, I shouldn't, I don't have time to cry, nope, you do. No, take that day, feel all the feelings, because then the next day You're going to wake up and you're going to feel Okay, now I can, I can put my big girl panties on and I can face this day and and that's okay, that you know. And maybe in the beginning you throw those petty parties. You know a couple of times a week, or you know a few times a month or whatever, and that's okay and you know. But you, just you have to honor those feelings, cry it out and move on.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and it doesn't mean that you're weak.

Speaker 2:

No, it actually means you have to allow your human body to have what it needs, and so emotions are things that should be processed all the way out of your body, like through your arm even, and that's why journaling is helpful, because it comes out through your arm, right. But crying, I mean, we were built to cry for reasons and it's to let all of that out, and so I know the way I feel, my body when I need to cry, and a lot of times I will listen to a soundtrack that I've developed so I can playlist and I'll tune into it, yeah. Or I'll take a nap, yeah, you know, and it's really helpful. I know I'm a really strong person. I'm also on depression meds I mean my, and that's also in my genetic profile, yeah. So I don't, I'm okay with that. I know people, for many valid reasons, don't want to do that, but for me it really works. But I couldn't even receive therapy until I was on the antidepressant. I couldn't even receive therapy until I was on the antidepressant. It was so, it was so. I was so below the bottom, and so now that I'm not, I can receive things and I can take something so hard and make something out of it and that's what I.

Speaker 2:

I had a coach for a while who understood, understood narcissistic abuse and it was hugely helpful, especially for the validation, because when you're gaslit for so long, you lose the ability to self-validate and you desperately need a validating community. And you desperately need a validating community. I've seen it with each of my clients and it's almost like you are in a dark tunnel and you can't find your way out and someone has to throw down the line. And that's the validation, step-by-step to make it all the way up through the tunnel. And then I decided I loved the coaching practice so much that I wanted to do it. I've had advocacy in my DNA since I was in elementary school, yeah, and obviously really honed those skills advocating for my daughter. And I decided I wanted to do that and I was. So I was trained here through a local program. It was a 15 week program. We had 12 people and we learned a concept of co-active coaching, which is really a brilliant way to hold space for someone and let them kind of put out there what they want to look at. And then we turn it all the way around and I ask a lot of powerful questions that help elicit a ton of awareness, because really, the awareness is the gateway to change. Yeah, you know, this is not advice. Everybody's situation is different in terms of their level of awareness, and that could be just their understanding of the situation or how they're looking at it. Or you know something that's about themselves that's causing them to have a barrier. Could be just their understanding of the situation or how they're looking at it, or you know something that's about themselves that's causing them to have a barrier. Um, and you know, once there's awareness, you can then do things like build tools right or start to really move forward. Um, but I love the process, yes and um, so I decided I was going to do that and I built a coaching practice and I'm still coaching.

Speaker 2:

I have my own website, and it's for narcissistic abuse and toxic relationships. I don't diagnose narcissism, obviously, that is not my lane but you can always look at behaviors and patterns, yeah, and know what you're dealing with. Yeah, and that could be a romantic relationship, it could be a familial relationship, it could be a work relationship. You know a manager or even a friend, yeah, and when you start feeling things in your body that make you uncomfortable, those are signals to you that you might want to stop and really become aware of it. Yeah, you know, and also to understand your part. Yeah, because what I brought to it was I'm in a people, please, mm-hmm, and I have high empathy. So because of that, a toxic person can just drain me. Right, they're just energy vampires, and so I have to know how to protect my energy for good. Yeah, for the highest use. But I really feel like it doesn't drain me to do this with clients. It actually empowers me. Yeah, because I'm still getting the. Actually, I'm writing a blog right now called the Upside Down World.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so when you're in these relationships relationships especially when your kids are still in them it feels like you live in an upside down world, like it's not, it's it's. It's like you've capsized and you don't know what normal is anymore and you're looking at people like, okay, that looks normal. I wonder if they would think this looks normal. Can you do you see this, guys? Does this look normal? I also call it like the Stranger Things portal. Yeah, there's a show, stranger Things, and it was like the normal little life here and the really weird portal you'd go through to see horror. Yeah, and you're like does anybody else see this, and so to get yourself out of that is is take some work and some practice, and so I still work on those things. Like I'm feeling upside down sometimes, yeah, and I know what I need to do when I'm feeling upside down.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So that's I just gave you a lot. I know I love it and thank you so much for being so brave, and you know just so like I mean it. It takes so much courage to to open up and to share your story, cause, even though you lived it, um, you know, talking about it is something totally different. Um, I guess my question to you, though, would be, when you were going through it, what you know? Cause if someone's listening to this and they're like, holy shit, she just said my life, like this is exactly what I'm going through, um, you know which, uh, you know, sadly, there are people that will be, you know they're going to hear this, and it's going to trigger thoughts of like Holy crap, that's what I'm going through.

Speaker 1:

What do you wish people would have done for you? Like if you had a magic wand and you and you unfortunately had to go back through this situation. Like, what do you wish that people would have said to you or done to you? Cause I know like or done for you, not to you, sorry, yeah, because I know that you know, sometimes people wouldn't. You know, I think, again, trying to normalize this, when people start talking about, like Holy crap, my husband won't let you know, like I'm only allowed so much money, or oh, I'm only allowed this, and that you know people, their first instinct is, like why the hell do you stay? Then, like, what do you mean? Like what do you mean? You have a budget, you know, and those things are not helpful. Those are full of judgment. Those are, you know, statements of people that are not. They're not putting themselves in that situation Right, and I know I've been. You know, like I mean, I've done that before where I'm like why would, why would you even stay?

Speaker 1:

We all have. But then, the further that I've gone through this process and, like, talked with people and listened to people and I hear their stories and, you know, just gone on a self-healing journey myself, I realized that who am I to judge a situation like that? I've never been in it. I don't know what I would do. You know, you hear so-and-so cheated and you know they stayed. Well, why would they stay? Why, you know, why wouldn't you just leave?

Speaker 1:

Well, you don't know, everyone's situation is different, and so for me, I would think that the best thing for someone going through this is to have a friend that is going to listen and offer a safe space, but not judge and not go. Okay, seriously, you've told me this story 17 times now. Like, when are you going to leave? Like, oh, I hear that all the time from my clients, yeah, yeah. So I just feel like that would not be helpful. So I guess my question to you is what would be helpful to someone you know, maybe someone's listening to this and they're not dealing with this, but they know a friend that's dealing with it. How could they help them?

Speaker 2:

That's a great question, um, and I can't think of the exact Ted Lasso line, but it's a Ted Lasso line about curiosity over judgment.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I like that.

Speaker 2:

So I think curiosity is your friend and really, when you're so severely gaslit, you stop believing yourself, like you have to look to other people, like you look outward to see if they believe, because you're not sure you do anymore. And so to tell someone I believe you and then say, can I ask you some questions, some questions. You know how does this feel for you, how do you experience this? And really actively listen, because when you really and that's what coaches are trained to do and everyone's heard the words actively listen, but it really is a practice because you'll hear things and then, by hearing them, you can say something like okay, I heard you say this. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah, can you tell me more about how you have responded to that? What are your emotions around that? It leads you to other questions to allow them to feel safe enough to continue to share, because they will bottle up at the first sign of judgment or misunderstanding or not being. And curiosity is your friend, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking time out and you know just being so brave and authentic and you know just sharing your story.

Speaker 2:

So thank you, thanks for asking. I appreciate it too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, of course, of course, and hopefully we can have you um on another time and you can tell us all about your practice. Oh yeah, that'd be, and hopefully we can have you um on another time and you can tell us all about your practice. I love that you've taken this horrible situation that you went through and turned it into something positive, in a way that you're able to help others you know that are going through this.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. It's just a. It's a gift to me too, yeah, so thanks so much for for all of your great questions and your space that you offered me, of course, Of course.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much and we will see you next time. On thrive and decide Sounds great.