Thrive & Decide Guide to Divorce and Beyond

Breaking Free: Empowerment and Healing from Narcissistic Relationships

• Sarah Thress • Season 1 • Episode 8

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What happens when the person you trusted most turns out to be a master of manipulation? Jamie, a seasoned expert in navigating narcissistic relationships, joins us this week to unravel her personal journey through a 25-year marriage riddled with turmoil and psychological abuse. Her story serves as a testament to the power of advocacy and support systems in what she describes as the "spin cycle" of narcissistic behavior. Through her experience, Jamie emphasizes the distinct yet complementary roles of therapy and coaching in helping individuals break free from these harmful patterns and find their path to healing.

Jamie takes us on a deep dive into the intricate spectrum of narcissistic behaviors, from those that cause emotional discomfort to the more insidious forms of psychological abuse. She brings to light the tactics often employed by narcissistic individuals, such as triangulation, passive-aggression, and gaslighting, while providing a safe and nonjudgmental space for those entangled in such relationships. Her mission is to empower clients by validating their experiences and offering them the language to articulate their feelings, which is crucial for understanding and overcoming the challenges posed by narcissistic partners.

Explore the nuances of personalized coaching as Jamie discusses the importance of active listening and the journey of rediscovering oneself after toxic relationships. This episode highlights the impact of toxic family dynamics and underscores the critical need for improved communication. With a commitment to accessibility, Jamie offers a complimentary consultation and adjustable rates, ensuring anyone seeking her guidance can benefit from her expertise. Whether you're seeking support or simply curious, this conversation provides valuable insights into navigating and overcoming the trials of narcissistic relationships.

To reach out to Jamie to see if she can help you:
spincyclecoaching@gmail.com
www.stopthespincycle.com
https://www.facebook.com/stopthespincycle

Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.


Sarah Thress
614-893-5885
Sarahthressrealtor@gmail.com
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https://www.facebook.com/SarahThressRealtor/
https://www.instagram.com/sarah_thress_realtor/

Real Estate Podcast Come To Find Out:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/come-to-find-out/id1704949604

Real Estate First Time Home Buyers course: https://sarahthress.graphy.com/

Speaker 1:

Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and Decide. This week we are talking with Jamie, who I was introduced to through a mutual friend and what I found so intriguing was the fact that she has really honed in on narcissistic behaviors and how to kind of help people behaviors and how to kind of help people get through, you know, narcissistic relationships or situations, um, how to like un-gaslight yourself, all the, all the things, um, so you know. So I reached out to Jamie and I asked her if she'd be willing to come on the podcast and just kind of talk about you know what it is that she does, um how she coaches people through, uh, and how she's able to, you know, just kind of help people come out on the other side like a better version of themselves. So, jamie, thank you so much for taking time out. I know you're super busy, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

No, I'm so glad to do this. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I guess, kind of walk us through, because I unfortunately have known several people that have been in narcissistic relationships and I feel like I feel like that term gets thrown out a lot, so I'd love for you to kind of walk us through, like how did you figure out, like how to just kind of hone in on what is a narcissistic behavior and what does that look like, and you know like, I guess, just all the things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, right it's. It's certainly not something I tend to discuss at a cocktail party. I try to stick with relationship coach.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I, um, yeah, this is my world, Um, and I'm just embracing the fact that it's my world and that a lot of things that have come into light for me can be shared, and I truly believe that if you don't speak this out loud, if you don't shine some light on it, it'll stay in darkness, it'll stay in shame, it will stay in you, even gaslighting yourself. So we're going to shine some brightness on this, and I was. I was in a 25 year marriage with a man who was actually diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, but I didn't want to see it at the time. I never researched it. I didn't see why I should. I knew I was going to stay, and so, as I was leaving my marriage, the narcissism turned into really scary rage and behaviors I hadn't seen before, like trying to really hurt me, whether it was physically or whether it was well, certainly reputation-wise, right, and he didn't have any remorse. I mean, it was. It was really frightening, um, and so I have always been an advocate. It's always been in my DNA, since elementary school, when I stood up to a really mean girl, um, and then I have a daughter who's on the autism spectrum and she needed tons of advocacy through school and and still, and so I'm wired for that.

Speaker 2:

And when I was in my high conflict divorce, which lasted two years, I needed a ton of support, yeah, and I actually envisioned having a bench behind me and I would put different people on my team and then I would call them up when I needed them. So that was a good attorney, that was a good financial advisor, that was actually a forensic accountant for me. That was a therapist. I also had a coach and I loved all of them and there's a difference between therapy and coaching, for they can certainly overlap. But a therapist was so helpful to me in terms of really looking at my child development and kind of how I got shaped into the person I was.

Speaker 2:

That was a real possible victim to someone who is a high functioning narcissist, yeah, and a coach is really someone that's helped, will help you kind of move forward, and that was appealing to me. And so I got a coach and I started to learn all of the things about narcissism. And I don't diagnose narcissism, um, but we all can look at behaviors and patterns and truly narcissism really operates on a playbook. Uh, it is a cycle of behaviors that you keep going through. It's very strange. I wish they could do a study on it. Um, but no one with narcissism goes in to be studied.

Speaker 1:

Well, because there's nothing wrong with them. It's you Right, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2:

So I don't think that's happening soon, right, um, and so that's why I call my business the spin cycle, because I like that when you're in the cycle, you're spinning. Yeah, you know, and I think all people that experience this understand what that means. I really thought that again, I had someone come alongside of me to help me become aware of the patterns and the behaviors, how it was really affecting my children, just the whole family system, and how that operates.

Speaker 2:

What I was doing to maintain that what I was doing, to maintain that what I was doing to enable things not because I was bad, because I was surviving, I mean all survival responses and I, even at the end, when I knew I'm going to keep a little secret in my mind about getting divorced, um, I knew that I was. Um, I'm sorry, I just lost my train of thought. Um, I was, uh, just kind of deciding how to self preserve, yeah, and I have clients that are just like you know I. You know I'm not leaning right now. I'm self-preserving, yeah, and so I never judge anyone where they're at on their own spectrum of dealing with this. I was in it for 25 years. Um, but what I will do, um, and through I went through a training with the international coaching federation because I really did want a set of ethics and standards. Yeah, because coaching isn't something where you have to get a license. Yeah, but I really wanted that. And the process of coaching I find so wonderful. It's so you have to do it to really know it, but it's what you're doing is you're creating a space for a person and they can just take one thing it could be how to organize your closet, yeah, and by asking a series of questions, you will become aware of the best way and how to do it. Yeah, but all of that gets stuck in us. We don't know how to bring that out by ourselves a lot of times because we have so many blind spots, we have so many, um, self-protective mechanisms in place. Yeah, that it's hard to do on your own. And so once you do that and you become aware, I believe that awareness is the gateway to change. So, once you become aware of the things, then you can start looking at okay, how can I do this differently, how can I preserve, what kinds of tools can I use? So I'm not feeling this way, but feeling more empowered.

Speaker 2:

Um, if you've been in a long-term narcissistic relationship, one of the hallmarks is that you lose your power. Yes, you really, and not it's not your fault. Really, and not it's not your fault. Um, because of all the coercive practices. Um, a lot of this is very psychologically based and so you just succumb to it.

Speaker 2:

We've all seen cults, you know, and, and thought how did they get pulled into that narrative? Right, it's super easy actually. Narrative, it's super easy actually. And it's all psychological and actually, the more of a critical thinker you are and this sounds very counterintuitive the easier it is to be pulled into something. You stop using your critical thinking skills and you go along. So there is a ton of infrastructure here that needs to be understood. And when you can understand it too, that's also such a light bulb, because you start making connections and then you start having a language for what's happening and what's going on. Knowledge is understanding, understanding is knowledge, yeah, and then knowledge is power and knowledge is power, yeah, and that's a way for you to start taking back your power. Um, because people in these relationships lose their ability to self-validate. It's just normal, yeah, um, and this helps you learn how to start validating yourself again, and so it's very step-by-step, well, and I have to believe too.

Speaker 1:

When that light bulb does go off and you do, you know, start like realizing holy shit, like I am in this narcissistic relationship, I need to go. Once you start like reclaiming your power, it I have to imagine that that does nothing but piss off the narcissist because they no longer have that power over you. And so then that is where you know, like when you were sharing, at the end, once you started standing up for yourself, things got worse. I have to believe, and obviously you know you're you're much more of an expert than I am, but I have to believe that it must be that they lost that power.

Speaker 2:

It's really tricky. It's really tricky, um, and so every situation is different. But, uh, I I learned a lot of the hard ways. You know I fell into the to the the pits sometimes. It's you know, I fell into the pits sometimes, and so you know, I know now that you kind of fight strategy with strategy Narcissism is. They have almost a playbook of strategies and there are ways you can do things that won't get them so shaken up by a loss of power and control. There are strategies, there are techniques.

Speaker 2:

Having said that, it's going to be hard, yeah, getting out is hard, yeah, and there's a lot of things to be aware of before you start doing it. Like, how do I support my children? Because this is like a little country now and it's a system, so everybody's part of that, and it's not just you your children now have developed their own ways of surviving, surviving their own ways of meeting the narcissist's needs. And you're all like, what do we do now? Yeah, um. So I work with a lot of people on better supporting their children, Um, and obviously themselves, um, it, it, it and, as I said, it's not always about someone saying I want to get divorced right now and obviously themselves, and, as I said, it's not always about someone saying I want to get divorced right now. Yeah, it's a process and some people, every situation is so different because there's a lot of different kinds of narcissism. Yes, right, so you have a covert narcissist who's very charming to everybody else but their family, and you have a malignant narcissist.

Speaker 2:

They're scary people that was my ex which almost, as my therapist says, bleeds into antisocial personality disorder, which would make sense. There's a group of personality disorders, disorders called cluster B Okay, narcissistic personality disorder is in that cluster Um and antisocial personality disorder um, borderline personality disorder, sociopathy and psychopathy they're all part of that and so you need to be careful, uh, cause those folks are the scariest Um. I wasn't aware that he was a malignant narcissist, but now I am.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Now what qualities make you a malignant narcissist, Like, or is there a way to kind of pinpoint, like, if they do this, this, this or this, then this is how they would be classified. Again, I know you don't, you don't diagnose people right, Like. You know, if someone came to you and was talking to you, what is it that they say to you that then makes you go? Oh yeah, it sounds like you're dealing with a malignant narcissist or it sounds like you're dealing with. You know XYZ type of narcissist Right.

Speaker 2:

When they, when a malignant narcissist receives an injury, meaning they get a hit to their ego or you know, they sense they're losing what's most important to them and power and control. They start to unravel and it looks like they'll do anything to hurt you Anything, whether it's physical, whether it's just stalking, whether it's just creepy behavior, a lot of intimidating behavior and there's no remorse associated with it, and they will even use their own children to do that. They don't have their children's best interest in mind ever. They don't care that this child might be emotionally affected for the rest of their lives. It's all about them being in control. It's malignant, it is just all consuming. And so that lack of remorse really feeds into the antisocial piece where they could do something like this did not happen to me, but they may kill an animal right just just to hurt someone. Yeah, and there's no remorse over it. It's like what I mean? I who cares, and it's not something you see, necessarily until you start to really injure them. Wow, um, that's a really scary kind. Uh, yeah, right.

Speaker 2:

But then there are other. It's a spectrum. There are other kinds of narcissists that do have the world revolves around them. They do have an ego, but they're not going to actually try to hurt you, right. They may make your life uncomfortable and miserable, but they're not going to hurt you and they're not going to hurt the children. They'll still say you know, your mother is your mother, right, and she deserves respect, or something like that.

Speaker 2:

But they can also be abusive people, and there are people that use emotionally abusive behaviors, like triangulation, being passive, aggressive stonewalling. And it gets worse, I think, with psychological abuse, yeah, which is more gaslighting, coercive control and manipulation. Yes, so that's where you have different kinds of people. It just depends on, you know, I'm sure for them it depends on what they sustain during their own child development, right, um, and you know, some narcissists actually seek out some support, but not many do, right, because they would have to believe that there was something wrong with them and it would look weak, right? So it's hard to say. It's not a one size fits all. It really depends on the kind of abuse you're going through and how you can offer wins to the narcissist little wins, yeah, so that there that injury is not as bad. Wow.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So if someone comes to you because you know, I know you're really passionate about helping women, you know kind of get through this and all of that. So if someone finds themselves in a situation where they're like I really you know, I'm pretty sure you know, either my husband was diagnosed or I'm pretty sure that they were, or maybe it's their wife. You know, you never know.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I've worked with men too, yeah.

Speaker 1:

You know, you never know Like it may be. So whoever comes to you that they feel like their other person is narcissistic, how do you kind of start, you know, like that conversation with them? What can you expect coming, you know, to you? You know just things like that. Like I'd love for people to kind of understand how you are able to help them. You know, not only because you've lived through it, but also because you've done such extensive you know, like studying of this and you, you know, I mean you just you fascinate me, like I hate that this is something we've had to study, but because I hate that you know that we've been put in this situation where people, you know, find it okay to gaslight us and make us feel like they're crazy ones. But so I guess just kind of walk me through like the process, like does someone just contact you and you, you know, listen to their story and then you know like help them, like what does it kind of look like?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, um, so I have you. You know, on my website there's like a toxic 12 quiz and people often take that and then they will submit something with their responses, right, ok, give me a little bit of background through their submission form, and so, in talking with them, like I'll do a 20 minute consult, I'll have them tell me a little bit about their story, and you know it's a space that's completely nonjudgmental. Obviously, I will validate some of the things and I will talk about things and they instantly start to connect with what I'm talking about, which, I think to them, it lightens them a bit Because, oh, I might be more normal than I thought. Which, I think to them, it lightens them a bit because, oh, I might be more normal than I thought.

Speaker 1:

Right, and I found someone who gets it.

Speaker 2:

That's right, because I've developed the language that helps describe what they're feeling, because they don't have it. And language is so powerful because then you can research it and you can say, oh, that sounds so familiar. Let me look into this. Oh, my God, I'm being gaslit. Yeah, I remember a friend one time I was already divorced and she was not in a good marriage and she said something and I just casually said that sounds like he's gaslighting you and she's like what is that? And she went on to just understand that and, um, it was so helpful. Yeah, but it's it's, it's the language.

Speaker 2:

So, but when I start a coaching process, I start where they want to start. We look at what they want to look, look like right. Then, yeah, you know, it's not a pre-programmed kind of thing, like you know, we're going to start here and then we're going to go here and here's some exercises. I don't do that, right, it's very co-active, um, where we have a session, we talk about what they want to talk about. Now, when they're talking, I am actively listening and hearing so many other things that are coming out. What I will do is say what I'm hearing are these kinds of things.

Speaker 2:

I think that's willing. That would be something to explore. But I want to ask if you want to keep exploring this? Yeah, because it's their priority, because it's their priority, it's their goal. But I might then also say I think it's worth at some point maybe looking more at this, and so, after you know, after we're done, I will kind of ask them to kind of recap their own kind of takeaways, and then I recap every session by email, which people find very helpful. Yeah, because you are going through a lot emotionally. It's hard to hear all the things sometimes, and so I will recap that information, maybe send some other tools, but it's so individualized because every situation is so different.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Well, and that's what I think makes you so good at what you do, is that you understand there's not a one size fits all because I think, unfortunately a lot of us.

Speaker 1:

You know, nowadays we're so used to that quick fix, that quick, like you know that what can I do to drop 20 pounds, what can I do to do this or that? You know, and we just want like that quick fix. Or you know, someone guarantees if you follow this, you're going to have this, you know result or whatever. So I love the fact that you tailor everything to each person how they're individually, you know what they need.

Speaker 2:

Right, and I'll even say to them, like we're talking about maybe a goal, yeah, I'll say, is this something you could operationalize? And I hear a lot of times I can't. I say, okay, well, that's good to know. Let's talk about what you can do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, let's talk about ways then to help you preserve, through this, maybe a boundary here and there, but it doesn't sound like you can go all the way right now. Right, that's understandable. I it's so understandable. I did it for 25 years. I mean, you know, I heard my husband was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and I decided to just unhear the words, right?

Speaker 1:

So I understand that Well, because I'm sure he gaslit you into thinking that person has no idea what they're talking about and you. So you were like, oh yeah, it's not that bad, he just is angry sometimes, that's okay. Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know I right. Yeah, I had a woman tell me that my husband didn't love me once and I'm like I blamed her. Yeah, she shouldn't have said it the way she did. But, um, you know, it's easy to talk yourself out of what you're most deeply scared of.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that is so true. And I think that we as women, you know, and men, if men are listening to this, we're not man haters here at all Um, but I think, especially as women, we just internalize everything. And you know, I mean, I didn't, I don't think that I was dealing with a narcissist with my ex-husband, I really don't. I just think that our situation just, you know, it just didn't work out. But you know, like it's just.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting, though, how you like lose pieces of yourself slowly, you know, and even going through what I, you know, just going through my divorce, like I realized, holy crap, like I made myself so small to fit into this marriage and I've I lost so many pieces of myself that I didn't even know I was losing. So, you know, if that happens in a like quote unquote like normal marriage, you know that like just fell apart, I can't even imagine, you know, because we as women, we are like well, what did we do wrong? Because that was the first question that I asked myself what could I have done better to make him love me, to make him not fall out of love with me? What could I have done? You know, like, how could I have been a better wife, because obviously this must be my fault. You know when, looking back at it, it was nobody's fault, it just happened. We just weren't the right fit, and that's okay.

Speaker 1:

Like not a big deal. But you know, I feel like when you're in this situation which is why I love that you ask people where are you at? What do you want to focus on? Because you know it may be too much to look at all of it or to shine a light on like Holy crap, I've let him like roll over me you know, like my entire marriage and you know, and then you get the shame and the guilt and the how did I let myself get here?

Speaker 2:

That's right People have. They're at their own speed and being aware of things. Yeah, it's probably in there somewhere, but you got to do it at your own speed, um, because otherwise it's not going to stick. And so you know, if you, so many people don't realize sometimes that they're using toxic behaviors because they've grown up with them, right, right, so I can identify. Okay, that's really you do. Your family sounds like a toxic system, but when you do the work to understand it and do the work to learn how to better communicate, it can get better. Right, at least for yourself, yeah. But when you're dealing with more narcissistic things, that's more power and control. That's really hard. They're both hard, yeah, but you can recover for some of those toxic, abusive behaviors within a family or even in a marriage, if you're both willing to go. Oh, I didn't realize that was unhealthy and I want to learn how to better communicate with you. Right, that doesn't happen in a narcissistic relationship, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean it would. It sounds like you know it would be amazing. Oh wonderful yeah.

Speaker 2:

I mean it sounds like you know it would be amazing, oh wonderful, yeah, well, yeah, I mean nobody wants to leave a marriage, no, where they feel loved and secure and communicated with. But that's never the goal. And also the other thing with narcissism is that you tend to get fairly isolated and so it's harder to leave because you feel like, oh my gosh, all of our friends now are really his friends. Yeah, I've kind of given up a lot for this marriage. I don't even see my family much anymore and they realize how isolated they've become, and that adds a level of fear like no other. So, yeah, so, yeah. So on my website, you know, I talk about the narcissistic spectrum, what it looks like, what it can look like. I have a toxic 12 quiz. I have just a lot of good information. I also have a blog page and I try to blog about once a month and that can be very helpful Again, just to maybe hear bits and pieces of yourself in a story.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because they're my stories yeah, but I'll have someone email me and say I'm really connected to that one, so yeah.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love that. Yeah, I love that. Well, I hate that you had to go through such a horrible situation to get where you are, but I love that you took something so horrible and turn it into something so positive. That helps not only you heal and grow and become the person that you were meant to be, but you also are out there spreading the word normalizing, talking about this stuff and, you know, also helping others to get to you know, a better place, so that they can start their own journey of becoming who they're supposed to be.

Speaker 2:

That's right. And again, when you, when you don't let some light in, all you're going to feel is judged and shamed and alone. Yeah and um, and that's why I did this. I mean I was able to not have that. I mean I'm not saying I never felt that way, but, um, I think the key to me being successful is by getting so much support, and I learned how to ask for help. I still do, and I think that we were all designed for that. So this is something that I find so rewarding. When someone becomes aware of something, it is just my best day. Yeah, because they're owning that and it's really powerful. Yeah, it's a piece of them.

Speaker 1:

I love that yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much again. I appreciate you taking the time. I know you're super busy, but you took time out to share this. I love the work that you're doing. I will definitely make sure that all of your information is in the show notes Great, so that way, if somebody is listening, it's like holy crap, I need some Jamie in my life, Like I'm calling her. I'm going to go to her website. I'm going to do the 12, you know, the toxic 12.

Speaker 1:

And I'm going to book a session and all of that stuff.

Speaker 2:

So we'll have that on there. Thank you. We'll talk in a complimentary way for 20 minutes and see if that's a fit. I also just try to really modify my rate based on people's ability to pay. Yeah, so I can do that and I want to do that, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I love that. Yeah, I love that. Excellent. Well, thank you so much. You're welcome, thank.