Thrive & Decide Guide to Divorce and Beyond

You Are Not Defined By Your Divorce: What Every Person of Faith Needs to Hear

• Sarah Thress • Season 1 • Episode 16

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Divorce and religious faith often seem at odds, creating painful dilemmas for people of faith facing the end of their marriages. What happens when the very community meant to provide comfort becomes a source of judgment? Where can spirituality and personal wellbeing intersect when relationships break down?

Two female ministers join us for a remarkably honest conversation about navigating divorce within church communities. Both have personally experienced divorce while serving as spiritual leaders, giving them unique insight into both sides of this complex issue. They challenge traditional interpretations of scripture that have been weaponized against people ending marriages, explaining how biblical teachings on divorce actually reflected concern for women's vulnerability in ancient patriarchal societies—not a divine mandate to remain in unhealthy relationships at all costs.

The ministers share their approaches to counseling couples in crisis, emphasizing safety first, followed by exploring whether restoration is possible, and supporting whatever path forward best serves everyone involved. They reveal the painful reality of well-meaning but harmful religious responses like "Have you tried loving him like Jesus would?" and contrast these with truly supportive approaches that honor grief while affirming worth.

Perhaps most powerfully, they offer liberation from religious shame: "Getting a divorce is not sinful. It does not make you unworthy in the eyes of God. It does not mean you can't be a leader, whether in church or anywhere else." For anyone struggling with reconciling faith and divorce, they suggest finding what nourishes your spirit and leaving behind interpretations that shame or diminish you—whether that means finding a new congregation or staying where you are while disregarding unhelpful messages.

Listen now to discover how faith communities can become places of healing rather than harm during one of life's most difficult transitions. If you're navigating divorce while maintaining your spiritual identity, this conversation offers both practical wisdom and emotional validation for your journey.

Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.


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Speaker 1:

Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and Decide. This week I wanted to really just kind of talk about divorce and church, because a lot of times people and we can't speak for all religions here, so just a quick disclaimer for that but a lot of times people tend to think, think I can't get divorced because my church will not understand, my church will shun me. I have to go through all of these different things and, again, every religion is different and some religions may make you go through a class to become divorced. But I wanted to talk with some people. I was raised in disciples of Christ and I, you know it's just a very more laid back faith than others and I like that because it allows us to kind of live our authentic lives and, you know, obviously followed by like the basic things, like you know thou shall not kill things like that. But you know, other than that it's really, it's more of like an authentic life that you lead.

Speaker 1:

So I asked Kelly Becker and Anna Hubbard, who also happens to be my sister, to come on here because they are both ministers that I highly, you know, admire and I find very inspirational because they live their authentic lives. And when I talked to them about, when I talked to you guys. But when I talked to them about this podcast and you know how I really wanted to help women going through a divorce, you know to understand, you know that there is life on the other side of divorce, on the other side of a loss of a spouse, that you know you can continue to go to church, things like that. When I talked to them about it they were like, oh my God, we would love to you know kind of share, like our perspective. So, kelly and Anna, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Thank you for asking us no-transcript.

Speaker 2:

You know just all the things. You go first. No, you go first. I like it when you go first. I like to just add in to what you say Perfect.

Speaker 3:

Perfect at scripture in terms of what it, the context into which it was written and what was going on at that time and try to figure out why it was written and perhaps who was writing it and why they were writing it. And so what I believe about divorce, based on what I know of the Bible, is that you know, there are some passages that talk about divorce in a negative light, and I'm thinking of the Sermon on the Mount. When Jesus talks about divorce, I'm thinking about places in the Hebrew Bible as well, but here's the thing it was a very patriarchal world, and, for the most part, women weren't allowed to own property, and so a woman that was in a divorce situation was pretty vulnerable, and so when Jesus talked about divorce, he was thinking about a world in which a woman who didn't have a husband was at great risk to not have a place to be, and so when he talked about it in a negative light, it was about the idea of protecting women, and so it's not that he didn't care if women were unhappy. It's not any of that. It was about for you to have a place to lay your head, for you to have food on the table, for you to have all the things that you need to survive and thrive in that world.

Speaker 3:

For the most part, you needed a man, needed a man, and so obviously, that is not our world today, although I am very aware that there are women now who, for financial reasons, stay married, for healthcare reasons, they stay married, and it's scary to think about divorce, but we live in a world where not but, and we live in a world where women can own property, where women can work full-time jobs and provide for their families, and so I think we have to be careful when we look at the Bible and try to sort of clobber people on the heads with it and say, yeah, but Jesus said no. Jesus lived 2000 years ago and the world was very different, and so I think we have to look at what Jesus was really talking about. And what he was really talking about was I care about the health and wellbeing women, and the best way to be healthy and well in that world was for a woman to be attached to a man. Yeah, what'd I?

Speaker 2:

miss. I don't think you missed anything. The only other thing I just would echo a little bit of what you said is that there's so many other scriptures, too right, that aren't necessarily about divorce but are about um worth for women and just that. Um, I mean, they're almost like they're calling them into task of like hey, you've committed to this, and like because they don't have a place, um, and so I guess my the place that I go when I think of this is when churches or or organizations even are going to tell you that you can't get divorced and that divorce is now going to define you and what you bring to the community and how you get to operate within that community. And I think that we could parallel a lot of other scriptures to make a case that that is not what Jesus is saying either, that we're not like that, that we're suddenly marked by this divorce and it means you don't get to be a valued member within the community.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, a member, or even a leader.

Speaker 2:

I think.

Speaker 3:

So this is probably a good time to mention. I am somebody who went through a divorce and I am an ordained minister in our denomination, and so I think that speaks to exactly what you were saying. Is that, um one, you know, getting a divorce is not sinful. It does not, um make you, um unworthy in the eyes of God, um, it does not mean that you can't be a leader, um, whether in church or anywhere else. What it means is I mean quite simply, what it means is I was in a relationship with somebody and that relationship ended up not being sustainable for lots and lots of reasons, and I really do believe that God wants us to be happy, and sometimes we and safe and safe.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's the other piece to this is I'm interrupting you, I'm sorry. No, it's great, but that's the other piece to this is like the cringe part for me as minister, saying you have to stay there even though it's unsafe, because you made this commitment in front of God and in front of this group of people, and I don't think God would call us to be in situations in which we are unsafe and aren't able to live authentically as ourselves, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I totally agree with that and I love that you all, you know, touched on that and I know, kelly, I've talked to you about you know doing a separate podcast where you share your story, because I'd love for you to you know share that. But I really wanted to keep the focus here on just kind of like the church and you know, going through it. But again, I love that you are a part of a, you know, denomination that not only allows women to be ministers, because that's not the case in all religions, but also allows you to live that authentic life where you knew that God would not want you to stay in the marriage that you were in for you know various reasons and you were not living your you know your authentic life. You weren't, you weren't getting the love, the appreciation, the support, you didn't have the teammate that God wants you to have you know in in a marriage. And so I love that you are part of you know a denomination that accepts, that appreciates that you know.

Speaker 1:

Again, I love that you guys talked about scripture and you know, sadly, there are a lot of you know quote unquote Christians out there that will quote the Bible to you and they're you know they're quoting something that was written billions of years ago, that you know that we don't know what their context was. Obviously, it wasn't billions of years ago. Like you know, it was written a long time ago and we don't know what their context was. Obviously, it wasn't billions of years ago. Like you know, it was written a long time ago and we don't know what their context was, we don't. You know, it's like reading a text and going. You know, I'm assuming negative intent whenever maybe the cinder meant positive intent. So, again, it's just, you know, we don't know what they were thinking, what they were meaning.

Speaker 1:

So again, that's what I've loved about being raised in the disciples churches, it's very much. You know, like you can read a scripture. I can read a scripture. You think it says one thing. I think it says one thing we can both be right in the way that we, you know, kind of interpreted that. So I feel like it kind of goes the same. You know, with divorce it's like okay, like you know, we accept you and we want to. You know, these two people want to get married. Great, we're here to support you. Oh, it didn't work out. Okay, we're still here to support you. We're still here to love you. So I'd love for you to just kind of talk about, like if someone in your congregation you know cause I know that as a minister you guys both end up being kind of a therapist um to people. So if someone comes to you and starts talking about it, I'd love. You know.

Speaker 2:

Obviously don't disclose any personal details, but we can just tell you what Kelly said to me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's whatever you feel comfortable sharing, you know, but I I would just love for you to just kind of talk about, like you know, if someone comes to you, what is your initial reaction? Because I think, unfortunately, like you all mentioned, there are some ministers that you would go to and they'd be like, oh yeah, you just need to try harder or pray to God and you know it's all going to work out. You have to stay married, so I'd love for you to just kind of touch on, like, what does that look like whenever someone comes to you all with that situation?

Speaker 2:

We can talk about that just real fast. I want to say that my favorite line was have you tried loving him like Jesus would?

Speaker 3:

I did not say that to her, To be clear she did not say that to her.

Speaker 1:

I know you would never say that and it just because it's so cringy, like it had to have been a man, sadly it was a man.

Speaker 2:

How did you know? That's hilarious.

Speaker 1:

Well, because that's a manly statement Like did you? You know it needs to be loved better, you should pray harder.

Speaker 2:

I want to. I'm glad you asked that question because, as we've been talking, the other thought that I had is because we really jumped into the thick of like you still matter and we want you to be you and divorce is okay, but like we also aren't part of a church or a denomination that doesn't honor the covenant of marriage and take that seriously and want and are going to root for you Like. So when people, when people come to me with that, I think I'm always asking questions about like how can we restore this? Is there a way to restore this? Has something happened that needs forgiveness that you can work together on? Are you all willing to go to therapy that you maybe need or could do?

Speaker 2:

And, at the same time, if this is what is best for you and you're already in this place, then it's how do we go about this transition and make sure that everybody in the family and in your immediate circle are taken care of as you all move in opposite directions opposite directions, but kind of within this community together? So, um, it's really about how can we be a support. At least that's how I approach it. I'm sure Kelly does it a little bit different, but, like for me it's how can we be a support to the place that you're at? I mean, I'm going to challenge a little bit, but I'm not going to.

Speaker 3:

And I think what you said previously. I mean, the very first assessment that we make is is everybody safe? Like, is everybody safe? Because that is the first thing. I mean. There's lots of time later to figure out, okay, where do we go from here, but let's make sure everybody is safe.

Speaker 3:

And I exactly what you said our job is not to make decisions for people. Our job is not to talk people into doing what we think we would do if it was us. Our job is to meet people where they are and figure out how we can encourage and support them. And sometimes that's a little bit messy in congregations because, let's not forget, we aren't just the pastors of the women or the one spouse, we are the pastors of both partners generally, and so we try really, really hard to let both people know that this is still their church, we are still their pastors, we still love them and, no matter how it turns out, we're going to keep on loving them, no matter what out, we're going to keep on loving them, no matter what.

Speaker 3:

And exactly what Anna said about, I mean one of the first questions I will ask couples is because, even if it's clear that they're headed toward divorce, counseling isn't a bad thing.

Speaker 3:

In fact, it's a pretty important thing, and I think either together or separate and sometimes both, even if you're headed toward divorce is a good thing, especially if there are children, because we don't just as they didn't come with an instruction book when they were born, we don't have an instruction book to how to parent, co-parent and not be living together, and so having a counselor on board to help with that is so important. And you know reminders along the way that the most important thing as parents is to put the needs of the children first and ahead of all of the anger and disappointment and sadness that exists. And and really you know divorce. There is grief with divorce and and I think that's part of what we do too is honor that. Like, even if divorce is what everybody wants and what everybody needs, there is still grief in that loss, and to honor that and to be able to talk about that is important too, I think.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, and I, I absolutely agree. I think, um and I love that you all touched on that you know this second that someone walks in um and says, you know that their, their marriage is over and they're getting a divorce, you're not like, oh, okay, cool, like great, Like you know. You're like, okay, well, let's talk about it. You know, is there a way in which you could see yourself forgiving what happened? And you know, moving on, is that going? You know, because that is okay, you know, and not everybody's, you know, divorce story is the same. Not everybody's marriage story is the same. Everything is unique and you know, what one person could forgive is maybe different from what someone else could forgive, and that's okay. That's again that's what makes us all unique, you know, but I think that is. That's again that's what makes us all unique, um, you know, but I think that is that's such a good point, though, because I'm very similar when someone comes to me and says that I'm not like, oh my gosh, I got divorced, it's so great, let's do this. You know, like I'm not just like I'm and I'm not a man hater, I mean I'm remarried, like I found love again, you know. So it's not that I'm, you know, over here like advocating for divorce.

Speaker 1:

I just think that sometimes you know, if you get to that place where you tried everything, it takes two to make the marriage work.

Speaker 1:

If you tried everything, you're the only person making any effort whatsoever, and you know like then it does become okay.

Speaker 1:

This is the best option for me, for my life, for my self-care, for our kids, whatever. And I love that you all give that space for people to open up and not feel judged and not feel like, oh my gosh, if I tell my pastor this, then God's listening and God's going to judge me and they're going to judge me and I'm not going to have my church family and things like that, because I do think that sometimes there are some people they they may mean, very well, I'm not, I'm not judging them because you know that also is not Christian, but I'm not judging those people that you know like, feel like they have to tell you their, you know their opinions. But you know, kelly, I think before we started recording, like you mentioned a story that I just it made me so sad for you that that was the experience you had and I have to believe that that church group that you are a part of must have, you know, really influenced. You know your path and you know kind of how you you minister to people now.

Speaker 3:

So I don't know if you um, not to put you on the spot but if you'd like to share you know, oh sure, um, so, uh, when it became, uh, obvious to me that, uh, my ex-husband and I were headed for divorce, um, I, I was part of a Bible study group I was a youth minister at the time part of a Bible study group of women, and we had been together as a group for years and we met every Monday night and had coffee, and it was great, and they were some of my closest friends. They were some of my closest friends. And so one Monday night it was time we were asking one another you know, how can I pray for you this week? And so I said, danny and I are getting a divorce and so I'd appreciate your prayers for us and for the kids and that kind of thing. And immediately the leader of the group came over and, you know, she said we need to pray for you right now. And she started to pray and all of the prayer was about, you know, give Kelly the grace to forgive and help her to remember that marriage is forever.

Speaker 3:

And it was a lot of praying into a situation that, quite frankly, she didn't know very much about, and a lot I felt completely and totally unseen and I did not feel cared about what I felt like was that I got a sort of a short sermon via prayer that I honestly, in that time I didn't need Like. What I needed was for my friends to hug me and say this is going to be hard, and we're right there with you. For my friends to hug me and say this is going to be hard, and we're right there with you. And I never went back to that group. I still was very good friends with one woman in the group who, after I left, basically said this is not, what just happened here is not okay, and so she was out as well.

Speaker 3:

But it it is hard. And I think think I said when we were talking about it before recording what I know now that perhaps I didn't realize then. What I know now is that when we tell people whether they are part of the church or not, when we tell people about things that are happening in our lives that are serious and things like I'm getting a divorce or my mom just died or I lost my job or you know, when we tell people big things that are happening in our lives that are painful and that are causing suffering, very often people don't know what to say. And because they don't know what to say, they start to say things either that they've heard or that they. That are nonsensical.

Speaker 2:

Which is sad, because I feel like the reason they're saying something is because they want to be supportive.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, and you know I've stuck my foot in my mouth before too. But so they start to say things like you know, my mom died yesterday. And they say, well, you know, god needed another angel in heaven. Not helpful, not helpful. And the same with divorce. You know I'm getting a divorce. Well, let's pray that you will be able to forgive, or let's pray that you know.

Speaker 3:

And what people just really need to know is that they're not alone, really need to know is that they're not alone and and we can't make decisions for other people, we can't possibly know everything that is going on in a relationship and and I recognize that as the pastor, I can have both partners in my office and they can be telling me, you know whatever they want to tell me, and I still don't know what's going on.

Speaker 3:

You know, I still don't. I can, I just can't know what they're going through and what they feel. And and I think and I lead with that a lot of times I, I lead with, I am so sorry, this is so hard and I don't, I don't know exactly what you're going through, but I want you to know that you're not going to go through it alone. Yeah, that's what I can promise you is you are not going to be alone. And and boy, if that's what that group had said to me, that's what that group had said to me, that would have been a gift. So I just think, and really what I would say about all of these things is it is really okay to say the words I don't know what to say.

Speaker 2:

I am so sorry.

Speaker 3:

There are not words like I don't know what to say. I don't know what you need. And that's yeah, and that's really okay.

Speaker 2:

And for my own experience I don't think we've talked about this on the recording, but I'm going through my own divorce and so, like within the church and with outside the church, the thing that was most helpful Um and I know this maybe isn't what people showed up here for, but what was most helpful is the idea that people just continued to show up Like there was a school family that like for all intensive purposes, as soon as they found out that we were going through a divorce.

Speaker 2:

Any other family would have been like OK, we're going to sit somewhere else at these peewee football games and not sit with the Hubbards, like we're not going to do that anymore. And instead they continued to show up and save us a seat and be like you're sitting right here and just continued to act like everything was normal and we're civil and just like. And it was the most beautiful gift they could give both Travis and I, because what we needed was for our kids to not feel like things were different and so like the fact that there was still that same seat for us to sit down in and to like watch the girls cheer for the football team, like so that would be my advice Not that anybody's asked for that. But like, how do we show up or what do we say? We say we don't know what to say and we just continue to show up because that's it's that walking alongside that has meant the most in this season of life, for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I absolutely agree, cause I remember, you know, when I started going through my divorce, you know, over a decade ago. You know we were very civil and it was all about our daughter and you know we would still go to all the all about our daughter and you know we would still go to all the things together. We still did all the holidays together. We still did, you know, everything together, which, again, my divorce story is unique.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes people are like I could never do that. Okay, that's fine, and I'm not telling everyone they need to do that. You got to find your own thing. We had some groups of people that were like cool, like what? We don't have to choose between you and Kevin. You know we can, we can be both. And I'm like, yeah, like there's no need to choose. And then there were others that just did not.

Speaker 1:

And I think it has to do with your own comfort level and your own, you know, maybe experience that you've had or haven't had with divorce, you know, because there are some people that you know have been blessed to never have to deal with that or have anyone in their family deal with that or ever been near it.

Speaker 1:

So they just they're like, oh, this is scary, you know, and it's not normal, you know. I know Anna and Travis did the same. You know that that we did where it was like it was all about the kids and you know, just whatever, whether it made us uncomfortable or not to be together, it didn't matter because it was all about the kids. And so I think that, again, like you said, you know, it's just nice for people to meet you where you are, um and like and to, if you have it in your heart to be able to be like. Yep, I can see that. You know, whatever you guys are dealing with is whatever you're dealing with, but we're going to all still sit together and I'm not going to make this awkward.

Speaker 2:

Even if it's not about sitting together and doing all those things Like. What I mean is like they didn't. They knew us from school. It wasn't like we had been friends a long time. It wasn't like and I mean both of them did this, but really the wife continued to lean in more Like, so she would reach out and be like hey, we're going to the park today. Do you and the girls want to come?

Speaker 2:

So it wasn't always like both, both of us had to be there, but it was like an intentionality of continuing to see what we were up to and continuing to involve us into whatever they were doing. Because she knew that like any form of grief, that like things were hard, and so like let's, let's let Anna come hang out with us and our kids so that for a family game night, she's not doing kids solo this Friday night or whatever like. And so she just continued to show up in that way, and so that would be my suggestion whether they have kids, whether they don't have kids, continue to invite to coffee, continue to like just the same way you would, almost after a death of just like oh, this is probably still hard six months down the road, like, let's, I haven't reached out to them. Let's see where they're at.

Speaker 1:

Let's well, yeah, because even if your spouse hasn't passed, it's still a death, it's still a loss, like you're still grieving the loss of the life you thought you were going to. It's still a death. It's still a loss, like you're still grieving the loss of the life you thought you were going to have. It's still death to that marriage, like you know. So there is still grief in that and you know everyone has their own grief journey. You know there is no blueprint, there is no, sadly, handbook that we can just pass out, that you know. Okay, well, you're going to go through this phase and then check this off and then now you've got this. Okay, now you're good.

Speaker 2:

Like you're healed, literally the only handbook I've received is everyone saying that's the most difficult thing I've ever been through in my life.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, and even for people who, who, who want to reach a place where they this is what I want, this is what we both want it is still the most difficult, one of the most difficult things to go through, and I think you know just that realizing that you're not alone. You're not the first person to have these feelings and your situation is unique. And one of the things I wanted to touch on was I try to be very upfront with couples that it is okay to decide one thing and then change your mind.

Speaker 3:

I think sometimes couples think, you know, they come into the pastor's office and they unload all of the messiness of their lives and say we're getting a divorce, we can't do this anymore. And of course I'm, you know, trying to help them sort out how they're feeling and trying to see how I can support them. And then and I try to remember to tell them, you know, no matter what you decide, however this ends, I'm here for you. But then sometimes what I've noticed is that people that think that they were headed for divorce then, upon further reflection, or some other things happen and they decide we're going to give this another try, for whatever reason not everybody, but sometimes we're going to give this the other try. And then it's so interesting to me, because sometimes there's shame around that even it's like so I told you all this horrible stuff was happening and now we're trying again. And you must think I'm so stupid, or you know, and so I.

Speaker 3:

How many times have I said that to you. And so I just always want people to know I don't. I don't think you're stupid, I think you're trying to figure out your life. I think you're trying to make big decisions and do the best that you can and again, there isn't a manual and all you can do is make the best decisions you can with the information you have at hand. And the thing about life is tomorrow you're going to have more information. And the next day, you're going to have more information.

Speaker 2:

Well, and just the reality of it in any life, questioning moments. When you come to the pastor's office, we're not sitting here going, well, they made the wrong choice. Like that's not our job. Like our job is to walk alongside you and and life is making the wrong choice, like it's going to happen, um, and we're not. When you come back in and you're like, well, that didn't work out the way I'd hoped, I mean maybe if it were me, you'd be like well, I mean I tried, um, but for real, we just really aren't like. We're like, oh, okay, well, like you felt led to do that and that felt like what you needed to do. And now you know. And like what? Now you have more information and where can we go with this?

Speaker 2:

The other thing I keep thinking about is we were talking about all of this grief and all of the things that people are going through when this is happening and when their relationship is in turmoil. And where we started was the idea that churches, couples come in to talk to their minister and their minister is like well, you have to stay married because you're sinning if you don't. And you're like that that's not helpful when we're in a space of grief, like and so like. I just like it almost like came around full circle for me as you were talking, cause it's like, well, how's that helpful at all If? If we're trying to struggle and make these big life decisions and we don't know which way's up and we don't know what the best like feels, like exacerbating the situation instead of loving people through it, because that's what life is.

Speaker 3:

I mean, I rambled a lot, sorry, and I think sometimes, I think sometimes our world picks something in different seasons and that's and, and that is the thing you know like that is the unforgivable thing, you know, whether it's.

Speaker 3:

You know, divorce is the unforgivable thing, or being gay is the unforgivable thing, or or or whatever. And the truth is that God created human beings and God has known all along that what makes us human is that we don't always get everything right, but also what makes us human is we need each other. Yes, and sometimes we disappoint each other, but the journey is what the journey is and we're all on it together. We're just on different parts of it and we all make different choices, and so our job is to just love people where they are, and my hope is always that when people experience being loved where they are, that they go from that place recognizing that they'll get their turn at loving somebody where they are, and I feel like that that is going to be what makes a difference in the world, is going to be what makes a difference in the world. Yeah, in our own individual lives and in the world, when we all kind of get the idea that we just have to love people.

Speaker 2:

Well, and that's good. I mean just being. I mean, yes, I'm the minister of this community, but even being part of it, as I walk this journey myself, like there have been days that are hard and that there's hard decisions to make and hard things to do, but because I'm being loved well by her and the multitude of people, it was like, oh, even if I make the wrong choice and have to decide something different, like I'm good because I, it's fine because there's this community. And if you had had that community that said we're gonna be with you, every single like that's what would have saved your. I mean, that's what's saving my life. Essentially is the idea that like, okay, well, still get to show up here on Sundays and right it's gonna be okay.

Speaker 3:

Well and um, and I will say, in addition to to the way that we are loving you because you're so lovable, um, I will say too, I still, I still love Travis, I still, I am still in relationship with Travis. I, we message back and forth Travis knows that he can walk in this office anytime he wants to and he'll have a sympathetic ear and you know he has come to worship, you know, before and since this, since this, yeah, and so, like I just think the normalization of loving people, personalization of loving people even when life is messy, is so important, and I think ministers and faith traditions that can't get that right. I don't know how they're going to get anything right. We have to love people, that's all there is to it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Well, and I love that, and I also love that you know you are a part of a, you know a faith community, a denomination that, like you know, even though you two are not perfect, you don't have. You know, like this cause nobody's perfect but you don't have this. Like you guys are pretty close but like, but you don't have, you know, you don't have like the church didn't go. Oh well, you guys couldn't even make your marriage work, so I guess you probably couldn't be a minister Like weird we still get asked to do weddings, I know it's weird.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly so you know. So I love that, that, that you have that. And, Anna, I love that you have Kelly, who I know has, you know, loved you through all of this, given you tough love when you've needed it, listened to you when you've needed it. You know, loves and accepts you, kelly, I wish that you had had had that, you know, when you were going through it. But again, this is why I just thought this would be such a great, you know, topic. And actually it was an idea from Anna whenever I was visiting last time, you know, I was like, hey, I'm going to be doing these podcasts and you know, I know your story is very, very fresh, so I don't want to ask you to share your story yet. And she was like, oh, but I want to do a podcast. What about the church? Like I could help from a minister standpoint. And I love that you brought that up because it really got me to thinking like, oh, my gosh, like you know, I I have coached several people through their divorces and like, been there, just, you know, I'm always just like I will listen to you.

Speaker 1:

It's a roller coaster. You're going to have really high, you know, really great days and then all of a sudden, your highs are going to get higher, your lows aren't going to be that low, but, like, when you have a bad day, lean into it and cry like, cry it out, feel all the feelings, you know, but like, I just I loved the fact that. Um, you know, as I've coached those people through, sometimes there have been people that say, well, my church will not accept me if I actually go through this divorce, or I'm not divorced in the eyes of my church, you know, and things like that. And so when Anna brought up that topic, I was like, oh my gosh, that is such a good one, because I think it's one that people don't talk about that often, you know, like, because we're all so lost in our shame.

Speaker 1:

And then, you know, if you're at a church where they provide that extra layer of shame, like God, like not only does society think I'm crazy and judge me, now God's judging me, now my minister's judging me, you know all of that. So that's kind of what led us here, and so I love the. You know the stories that you all have shared. Um, you know, and I'd love to hear, like, has there been anything in like the denomination, like outside of the church or within the church, like where anybody has, you know, like judged the fact that you have gone through a divorce and you're also a minister and you're also doing you know what I mean Like do you think you've been held to a different level of like standard than than others, or treated any differently?

Speaker 3:

Um, I don't, I don't think so. I think from outside the um, outside of our denomination, honestly, less about my marital status and more about the fact that I'm a woman. Yes, I mean the judgment that we live in Northeast Oklahoma and buckle of the Bible belt there, and before I moved here, a friend of mine who I respect said to me, who lives in Oklahoma, said I love you and I would love to have you closer, but you need to know Oklahoma is a hard place to be a woman and to be a pastor, and it is a pastor and it is, and that's one of the really, really positive, wonderful things about Anna and I working together in the same church is that I have, you know, we have a colleague right, we are, I am the only female senior minister in town and we are the only completely female led from an ordained clergy standpoint in town, and so I'm really proud of that and our church is really proud of that. But also it's not easy, and so I think you know this podcast is for anybody who is getting a divorce, and so I think probably people who are experiencing different ways of looking at divorce and other faith tradition, at divorce and other faith tradition. Maybe their experience would be different than ours, and I guess what I wanted to say to that is because I think that that would be difficult to be in the process of a divorce and to also feel isolated or alienated in the faith community that has been so important in your lives.

Speaker 3:

And so I would say to that it's okay to be part of a faith community where you don't believe exactly the same things as everyone else believes and it's okay to get the things that you can get from that community that enrich your life and then encourage you, and then to walk away from the other the parts of it that no longer work for you. And that that's okay. Because I don't want I don't want to leave people thinking I can't stay where I'm at. You know I can't stay in the church that I'm at. You can and you can go. If you need to talk to a different minister, you can go talk to a minister at another church and still go to worship at the church that you're at.

Speaker 3:

I just I want again it's like with everything else you have to do what's best for you. If sitting in the same sanctuary that you've sat in for the last 20 years is going to bring your heart comfort, even if the minister is saying things in counseling or whatever that you don't believe or that make you feel any kind of way. If sitting in that sanctuary brings you comfort, then sit there. Um be, be what you be where you need to be, do what you need to do to take care of you. Yeah, um.

Speaker 1:

I think that's such good advice and I I because, yeah, you're right, like you know, there it's interesting to me because there have been some churches that I, you know, have gone and visited and I've sat there and I've been like, yeah, this isn't, this'm like, oh, my gosh, like I'm at home, Like, okay, you know, and I just think I one of the things, too, that I've always loved about being raised in the disciples church is that you can find God and have a relationship with God and Jesus outside of church. You don't have to be at church every single Sunday to feel God's love and, you know, maybe you being out in nature is what brings you closer to God and that's where you have your, you know your conversations with God, or you feel the closest to Jesus, or you know any of those things, and so I love that. You know you're not that I ever thought you would ever do this, but I love that you guys aren't like you should always choose disciples of Christ, like because we are just the best, you should come to us.

Speaker 2:

Everyone should move to Northeast Oklahoma.

Speaker 2:

Right or watch us online Um because the problem is is you're uprooting so many other parts of your lives, right? Yes, Like. One of the things I didn't expect to have grief over is the loss of like doing things as a family unit and like and I'm only saying that because, like, it was just like another layer of things that I didn't think about or wasn't prepared for when it happened, and so my point is it's so multi-layered that like to also change your church in the midst of that is problematic and could be traumatic, and so like, definitely, save that for a different day. I agree, if you're comfortable there and you are around people that love you, well then then stay there and decide what you believe about divorce on a day that is further down the road.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because some days everything is clear and some days it's clear as mud.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think this is true of all churches, and maybe some churches would be unhappy to think that this was true about them, but it's true of all churches Not everybody in the pews or the chairs agrees with the pastor, and so the pastor may have a stance on whatever divorce.

Speaker 3:

but you know, half the congregation may not agree with the pastor, and so it really is. You know, if you have a group of people who are loving you well in that church and the pastor is saying things you don't agree with, well, don't listen to the pastor. Listen to the people who are loving you, and I would say that I'd say that here too. If you know, if something I'm saying isn't making you feel valued and loved and cherished and enough, then listen to somebody else, because that's how I want you to feel when you're here is valued and loved and enough.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, I love it, but also not all, especially senior ministers, want to be checked on the fact that, right, like you genuinely would want somebody to walk in here and say that to you yeah, our people would probably. But like I, can see situations where, like I don't even want to touch that. I'd rather just do what you're saying to do than just be in the friend group.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but I love it. I think, ultimately, the message you know that you all are sharing is to find that place where you feel seen, heard, loved and accepted period. So, but I, I love this so much and I know you guys are so busy and I really, really, really like, can't thank you enough for taking time out of your busy day to hop on this podcast and, um, you know, anna, I am eternally grateful to you for coming up with this idea. Um, kelly, I'm eternally grateful to you for all that you do for my sister and loving her. You know, because we are so far apart, you know, physically, not mentally. Mentally we're, you know we're tied at the hip, but yeah, but you know physically. So I appreciate that. But thank you so much for coming on here, being so open, being willing to, you know, share, like your experience, share from the church perspective, um, share from God's perspective. You know, I, I, just, I really truly appreciate it. So thank you so much.

Speaker 3:

Well, thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and we'll definitely find time to share your story, kelly and Anna, when you get to that point that you um, you know you're in a different season and that's okay, and so you need to stay in that season and honor that. But, uh, we'll definitely we'll get you on at some point too. So, all right, thank you guys so much, and thanks so much for tuning in. Um, definitely, uh, make sure that you leave a review, because feedback is the greatest gift, um for us. Um, make sure that you leave a review, because feedback is the greatest gift for us. Make sure that you're sharing this podcast with anyone that you feel could use this message, because that is the greatest compliment you can give any of us, and just make sure that you're subscribing so that you never miss another episode. So see you next time on Thrive and Decide, all right.

Speaker 3:

Bye-bye.