Thrive & Decide Guide to Divorce and Beyond

The “Do What You’re Supposed To” Plan Went Great, Said No One Ever

• Sarah Thress • Season 1 • Episode 24

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What happens when the “right thing” steals your voice? We sit down with Sam Leeson, who grew up in a small town where reputation came first and casual homophobia kept her hidden. She married a friend because it felt safe on paper, became a parent she adores, and built a career helping others advocate for themselves in birth and early parenting—while feeling unsafe and unheard at home. A panic attack at a school drop-off cracked the facade, linking past trauma to a present she could no longer tolerate. By 2010, Sam chose to leave, come out, and face the grief, doubt, and judgment that followed.

Sam explains how honoring her children’s needs—letting them live where they felt safest, even with her ex—became the cornerstone of healing. We explore missteps, estrangement, and repair: the son who went quiet, the conversation in a parked car, and the choice to answer every question with honesty when they were ready. She shares the difference between co‑parenting from control versus respect, and how modeling happiness teaches kids to set their own bar. We also unpack family of origin dynamics: a mother who equated parenting with sacrificing joy, the protection of low contact, and the moment a cancer diagnosis reshaped how Sam wanted to move forward. Boundaries, chosen family, and deliberate forgiveness play leading roles.

This conversation is frank about abuse, why survivors don’t “just leave,” and the messy aftermath—financial fear, lonely nights, and the long tunnel toward a brighter life. If you’ve ever felt trapped by expectations or terrified to disappoint people you love, Sam’s story offers a map: choose safety, tell the truth, and let time do its work. Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find stories that make brave choices feel possible.


Sam Leeson:


Sam is the founder of babyREADY and has spent over 25 years supporting individuals and couples—especially 2SLGBTQIA+ families—on their journey to parenthood. Through education, coaching, and hands-on care, she’s helped thousands navigate fertility, pregnancy, and early parenting with confidence. A trusted voice in the field, Sam has been featured on international podcasts, national radio programs, and in top parenting publications. Her engaging approach empowers clients to feel seen, supported, and more informed than they ever expected.

website: www.babyREADY.info

Check out her podcast: https://www.babyready.info/becomingpodcast

all socials: @babyREADYlgbtq


Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.


Sarah Thress
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SPEAKER_01:

Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and Decide. Uh, this week we have a very special guest. Um, she's actually coming to us from another country, even. Um, so her name is Sam Leeson, and I recently uh was connected with her on Facebook through um a podcasting group, and uh just her story sounded so fascinating that I reached out and asked if she would be, you know, vulnerable and brave to come on here and share her story. And she was so kind to agree to come on and share. So, Sam, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to come on and share your story.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, thank you, Sarah. I really appreciate it. I do think that in a lot of cases, my story is unique and not so unique. And I love your platform for sharing people's stories because there's a lot of us who made decisions when we were younger that were in the best interest of the people around us and not necessarily in the best interest of ourselves. So that's sort of where my story kind of begins. You know, it's not, it's it's a tale as old as time, um, or however that goes. I grew up in a small town. I had parents who owned their own business, and the messaging was very clear from a young age, not to do anything that would embarrass the family, that would um affect the the bottom line of the business. And so, and and you grew up like that in the 70s and early 80s, because uh the tale's as old as time because I'm as old as time. Um, but um you know, these are the messages in the in the 70s and early 80s, and uh and in a small town, you also heard the jokes, the comments, the oh, that's so gay kind of comments. So, for those who are listening and don't know anything about me, that's probably an intro to to a little bit of my story. Um, those kinds of comments made me feel unsafe. And so um I dated girls on the side. I snuck out in high school and dated girls, and nobody knew except the girls I was dating. Um, but but I didn't tell friends, I didn't tell family for a long time, and um, and then I did the right thing and I married a friend from high school. We'd kind of been dating and we got more serious, or we spent more time together, and so it just seemed like a natural progression to do the quote unquote right thing. And I got married when I was 23. And yeah, yeah, I was a baby. I was a baby.

SPEAKER_01:

And you you married a man because that was the quote unquote right thing to do. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I grew up in Oklahoma, so trust me, like I I know what you're talking about, and it it's it's so sad when I hear these stories. Like it makes me want to cry. So I didn't mean to interrupt, but please keep going.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, but but you're right, these stories are not unfamiliar to people. And we look back and think about the comments that were made and this and the the the way people were living their lives and the expectations that we put on our kids and things like that. And and it's not surprising that my story is not a unique story in that respect, you know. Um he was a nice enough guy in terms of friendship. Um, before we even got married, I knew that it was an unsafe space to be. And um, and that wasn't because of my sexuality, that was because um it just wasn't um the right person for me to be to make me feel safe. Um, had some preferences and proclivities that that didn't match my own, and that made for an unsafe space. Um, but I knew I wanted to be a parent. And you know, one of the one of the biggest challenges within the queer community is that when we acknowledge to ourselves that we are part of the queer community that we identify as somewhere in the 2S LGBTQIA plus spectrum, that parenthood and creating a family may not necessarily be possible or easy for us. So I had done the right thing, I'd married a man, and so the next step was to have that baby that I wanted to have. And and I will I will preface everything that's going to follow with the fact that I wouldn't change a moment of my life and a decision that I made at all, because if I did, I wouldn't have the children that I have, and they are my reason for breathing. So yes, I would love to see other people not have to live that life and be able to have their dreams. I'm very grateful that I have my children and their father is a good father for them and has never done anything to them that has made them feel unsafe. So everything else that follows, those are big, those are big statements to make because a lot of people who leave an abusive relationship um are afraid for their children. Uh my ex was not physically abusive, didn't hit me, didn't yell at me, didn't demean me, but it was sexually unsafe. And um, and I was assaulted on on a pretty regular basis. And um I was, I mean, like many people who've been abused, I was willing to stay for the sake of the kids. And I lived a very um normal life. I I had a pretty crappy birth experience with my first uh child. Uh I felt like a lot of decisions were made on my behalf and not with me. And so being a women's studies graduate from university, I was kind of in that mindset, all about women, all about feminism. And so when I had a bad experience, I thought, okay, well, this is the direction my career is going to go. And I started supporting people having babies and making sure that their voices were heard. And it's interesting that the work that I've done has been so much to support other people and other people's voices, but I wasn't doing very much for my own. That that isn't lost on me.

SPEAKER_01:

I know, isn't that such a woman thing though? Like, you know, we just we give and give and give and take care of others, and then we don't even realize like, holy crap, the things I'm doing for them, I need someone to do for me, or I need to do it for myself. Like, we just we're so selfless, you know, at the core that, you know, sometimes we just at the expense of ourselves take care of everyone else.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh no, it's really true. It's really true. And I I had the opportunity to take some courses while my children were young and do some extra certifications and grow my knowledge and and understanding so that my work could really be as robust and supportive as it possibly could from anywhere, starting their fertility journey through to parenting. And I got all of the certifications and stuff to go with that to support that. And I made sure I was as busy as I could possibly be. I homeschooled my children so that I could spend time with them because the hours that I worked were evenings and weekends. That's when people were available to meet with me to learn about how to have a baby. I was teaching in a hospital five, six, seven days a week. So I was rarely at home with them at the same time as my ex. That was by design. Yeah. I think unconsciously on some levels, but it was definitely by design. And my kids were happy to homeschool. We had a great community around us. It wasn't a religious community, it was just a bunch of families that wanted to homeschool their kids, other kids the same age. We did all kinds of fun things together. But when my eldest was ready to go into grade six and my youngest was ready to go into grade three, they both sort of expressed that they wanted to go to school. They wanted to give that a try. And I had always said, whenever you want to go, it's your time to go. So we looked at a Waldorf school actually, because it was for me, I thought it would be a nice transition. Class sizes are smaller, a little bit more controlled, lots of outdoor time, and that would help them transition to a little bit more structured sitting down in a classroom full of other children kind of environment. And so they did that for a year. And the day that I dropped my kids off for their first day of school, I had a panic attack. Oh. And I realized I don't have that safety net anymore. I'm worried about what's going to happen to them. I had been in private school. It had been an extremely unsafe space for me. Um, I was assaulted regularly in the small private school I went to. And it started when I was the same age my eldest was, as he was going off to school for the first time. So I think all of that sort of came together and resulted in me having to have the car pulled over on the side of the road because I was fully panicking and not sure how I was going to get through life in general.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Bless your heart. Like this is just like, oh, it's heartbreaking. Like, and it's so sad that, you know, like that all of this has happened to you and that it, you know, has affected you. And then also, like, you know, it's like then you got married to someone that you thought was safe, that you thought was gonna like, you know, be like your safe haven. And like it just was the complete opposite. It's just, oh, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. Thank you. And and don't get me wrong, I'm still in therapy now. I've been seeing other therapists like because you because you have to, right? You need to constantly, I need to constantly remind myself that it's okay that I walk the path that I walk now, right? And and give myself permission to live my best and most authentic life. Yeah. Um so yeah, uh the kids started school, and that was September of uh 2009. Wow. It seems so long ago. Isn't it crazy how fast time flies? It's it so is by January of 2010. I had let my now ex-husband know that the relationship was over, and I moved out in March. And and it and you know, and anyone who's gone through or is going through divorce knows the decision to leave was excruciating. And in spite of the environment that I was living in, it was a decision that I questioned for a couple of years on a regular basis because life was so shitty, just hard, hard, hard, hard.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think that's the hardest part of you know the divorce process. Um, you know, it's like making the decision, you know, getting to that point where you're like, yeah, like I'm done is one thing, but then like living with that decision and then, you know, like moving on and recreating your life because no matter who you are, you when you get married, you kind of lose part of yourself. Like, you know, you unfortunately had to put a whole side of yourself, you know, on the shelf. But also, you know, like we just as women, we start to just like lose parts of ourselves. And so then it's like, you know, you make that brave decision to be like, hey, dude, like I don't need you. And, you know, but then you're like, whoa, okay, now what? Like, now what am I gonna do? Am I you know, am I fucking up my kids? Am I, you know, am I like, you know, blowing up my whole life for for nothing? Like, what you know, make this make sense. Like it's just, yeah, it's such a struggle.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and it, and it was probably like a year and a half. I want to say it was like not the next October, but the October after we'd been up at my parents for Canadian Thanksgiving, and um, I was driving home with my kids. It was just the three of us in the car. And I don't even remember what was said, but my youngest said something. So he was then about nine years old, and he said something, and I said, Hun, you know that your dad and I are never getting back together, right? And he I had to pull the car over. I had to spend time just sitting holding him. Like he he really needed to hear those words, but I needed to say those words because I obviously had never been particularly clear with them. I mean, they had lived with me in another town, um, because I had moved like 30 minutes away from from where we had lived, because we had lived in a small town, everybody knew us, everybody knew the family, and I knew as soon as I left, I mean, that was me leaving, that wasn't even me coming out. Um, but I knew that when I left, the stories were going to start, and I I didn't want to be a part of that. Um, my kids lived with me for a little while and then asked if they could live with their dad because they wanted to be in that community, and I had to honor that. I had to respect that that's that was their safe space. And if I needed to do something for my safety, I had to respect that they also needed to do something for their safety. That ripped my soul from my body, and and it will be something that haunts me every single day of my life. Now I have a great relationship with my kids, and we've worked really hard to work on that, but there were a few years where they were because I I wasn't comfortable telling them why I left the relationship. So for them, I left because I came out, which um which is ironic because I would have stayed had it been safe, I would have stayed and just done the right thing to be to make it easy. Yeah. Um, but I, you know, I'm not, I don't ever think that it benefits my children for them to know the specifics of what happened behind closed doors in my marriage that made it unsafe. So if if what makes them feel more comfortable is that I left because I came out, they I it's I interestingly enough, my eldest who's now in his late 20s, said to me, you know, mom, I think it's easier that you are married to a woman now. Um, I think it would have been harder if you left and then started dating a guy. And you know, I shuddered at the thought of of dating another man. But um, but I thought, oh, okay, well, um, but yeah, we all worked through through our trauma. Like we went went to therapy together, and um, you know, we had to we had to get through it. It was and it was hard to finally say the words out loud that I was leaving. It was hard to say the words out loud to other people around me that I'm that I'm a lesbian, that I'm queer, that that's how I identify. Um, but I but I'm I let myself do all of that because for me, the most important thing was teaching my children that being happy is the most important thing. Don't settle because you're afraid that you won't find that thing that truly speaks to your soul.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That is so amazing, and I'm so proud of you. Like I I know I just met you, and that sounds so mom. But like I am, I'm so proud of you because I think, you know, and I hope that somebody that's listening to this is getting, you know, the courage and the strength from your story to go, yeah, okay, this is gonna suck. But guess what? Like being happy is way more important. And, you know, I think we all worry so much about like, ah, we're gonna fuck up the kids if we like divorce, we should stay together because it's the right thing to do. But I can assure you that, you know, even if all of those things weren't happening in the background of your marriage, they would have known that you're not truly happy. And somewhere subconsciously, it would have imprinted in them that you just do you you be the good girl, you be the good boy, you just do what you're supposed to. You know, it doesn't matter that you're not happy, you just do what you're supposed to. And, you know, like because unfortunately, that was the generation that that raised us was, you know, you you do what they tell you because that's the right thing, you be a good girl, you know, instead of, you know, I love that now we're, you know, now we're seeing more and more people that are like, yeah, no, like forget that. I'm done being unhappy and doing the right thing and being the good girl or the good boy, you know, like it's now time for me to be my true authentic self because that's that's what we need. The world just needs more true, authentic souls sharing their light so that others can, you know, come out of the darkness and and follow that light as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And it's it, I mean, there are, I don't have days anymore where I wish that that, you know, that I had made a different decision. Um, I I wish that I had asserted myself more. Um, I think by choosing to leave, I had some uh in some respects used up all of my courage um to pluck up the courage to leave. So then when it came to asserting myself with time with my kids and and making sure they understood things, and that that took a few years to really get good footing. There was a period of time where my eldest and I didn't speak his choice. I had to respect that. So I would spend time with with my youngest, and he and I had some great, great time just one-on-one that we otherwise wouldn't necessarily have had if his brother had been there. But at the same time, I I hate that I created an environment where that was a hole that he had in his life that he didn't want me to be a part of. And it was him going for counseling and then asking me to join him for counseling that that helped us to repair that. And truthfully, I think that us not having that pause as he was going through his initial part of puberty and everything else, um, questioning the world, right? Because at as we hit puberty, we question everything around us and and the dynamics of our relationships with our parents and things like that all falls into into that time. And it and we're supposed to, we're supposed to learn more about ourselves as we're coming into puberty and things like that. So I needed to respect where he was. Um, I would change it if I if I could, but I I but again, like I said earlier, I wouldn't change a minute because I wouldn't have my relationship that I have with them now. I wouldn't have the kids that I have now. I mean, they're amazing humans. I I talked to my eldest who lives in in Alberta. So he lives like several days' drive away. Um, but I I talked to him three or four times a week, and we have great conversations, and we, you know, are so close. And and and I really hope that that's because I respected him and where he was on his journey, just like I asked him to respect where I was on mine. I can't, you can't, you can't uproot someone's life and ask other people to appreciate it and respect it and honor it and not also respect and honor how they process all of it too.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think that's such a huge point because, you know, whether it's your children or whether it's, you know, like relationships within, you know, your life, like I'm sure you, you know, when you finally like came out, I'm sure there are some people that were like, yeah, I mean, I, you know, of course that makes so much sense. And I'm sure that others were like, wait, what? You know, but you like stayed true to who you were. And so just like, you know, you did with your children, you know, you were like, hey, look, this is this is where I'm at. This is, you know, and please feel free to, you know, to process it how you need to. I respect it. I love you. I'm here for you. And, you know, and that's it. And I think that takes such bravery um and such vulnerability to do that because it is hard. It is so hard to live authentically and then just hope that everyone gets it. And, you know, and then hope that everybody is like, oh my gosh, that's so great. Like, okay, like let's just keep going, you know. Like that's just not unfortunately how it goes. So I just I, you know, I think you handled it so well. And I guarantee that you laid such an amazing foundation for your kids, whether they will realize it sooner rather than later, or it's just all gonna be subconscious. You laid such a strong foundation for them that you did make a huge impact in their life because you could have been just like your parents, or just like, you know, everyone around me in Oklahoma, and been like, oh, well, you know, like I'm just gonna live this way. And like, or hey, this is who I am. Like, you know, be be fine with it. Like, you know, you have to just be fine with it. Like, there's no processing it, everybody's fine, you know, everything's fine. Shove it under the rug. And yeah, let's not talk about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. No, it's true. And it, and it's it, um, it was probably my when my eldest was probably about 17 or 18. I realized that I hadn't actually formally said, you know, you can ask me anything about anything. When my marriage first ended before I said anything about coming out to my parents or anything, um, I had I let my parents know that the relationship was over. And my mother's response was um, and I quote, when you give when you have children, you give up the right to having an always happy life. So I knew where I stood. Yep. And it was clear. And so I I kind of shut down for a while. I talked to them as minimally as I could to make sure that I met the needs that I had. Um, but I kind of needed to protect and guard myself. And it took me probably two or three months to formulate an email because I needed to be able to say everything without interruption. Um, because people often say, why put it in writing? Why not just talk to them? Um, because I needed not to be interrupted, I needed not to be taken off the path of the message I needed to share. And I said, You didn't know this about my marriage, but a big part of why I left, and the primary reason why I left was be is for this reason, this reason, this reason, and this reason. And the response that I got was um that my mother was very, very hurt that I had never told her, and she was angry that I had kept that to myself, and she couldn't support me if she didn't know what was happening to me. So I should have told her. And I thought it took me being married for 16 years and together with this person for longer than that to acknowledge to myself that I needed to leave. And you're upset that I didn't tell you.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. You're like, wow, okay, not statistic much.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And so for a long time, I actually um didn't then have any really any communication with my kids. I taught or with my parents, I I talked to them periodically. Um, I saw them sometimes once a year, sometimes every few years. And um, and when my eldest was, as I say, about 17 or 18, I said, You can ask me anything, I'll tell you, I'll be honest with you. Um, and I was at the time I was willing to talk tell him literally anything. And we've we had we were we were sitting having coffee in his car. Like that was the space that he chose for us. So we met at a Starbucks, and we were sitting in his car talking, and uh, and he he wanted to know about the relationship with my parents because he and my brother, he and his brother are really close with my parents. And um, and I want them to be. Yeah, have a great relationship with your grandparents. Um, and he wanted to know why I struggled with that. And I said, you know, I was honest with him about how his his grandmother, his nonny in our house, we call her nonny, um, re reacted and and how that made me feel. And he he said, Okay, I get it. I get it. He's a bit, but she's your mom, like you should have a relationship with her, wise kid that he is. And um, and I really couldn't, I couldn't let myself put it away for a long time. Um, my wife and I got married uh in 2018. My my family wasn't invited. My kids were, uh my family wasn't invited intentionally, didn't we we only had about 30 people at our wedding altogether, including the two of us, my stepdaughter, my two kids. That's five right there. Um it was a it was a very small wedding in our backyard, and um I just didn't feel like it was the place, and and it was uh 2021. My stepdaughter's a competitive equestrian. We had been at a horse show all weekend competing, and the weekend before we had done the same thing. So now compete on Thursday, compete on Friday, complete on Saturday, complete on Sunday, and it's getting up at four in the morning, getting home at eight at night. It was they were long, long days. And the the I got home from the show and I will never forget the sound of the cat meowing from my stepdaughter's bedroom, and I thought, oh, she's been trapped in there all day, poor thing. So I let her out and I sat down on the floor with her and just gave her some attention. And and and my phone rang, and I looked at my phone, and it was my mom calling. And I thought, I am so exhausted. Do I have the energy to talk to my mom? So I answered and I said, Hey mom, what's up? And she said, Oh, do you have a minute? So I said, Yeah, but but just a minute, because you know, horse back to back horse shows. I'm I'm wiped, we're just unpacking and what's up. She said, Well, I wanted to let you know before anybody else in the family found out you and your siblings deserve to know that I've been diagnosed with um what ended up becoming bone cancer. Um and and my world shifted because I realized that I was holding all of this anger and hostility. And and I had said how I don't even can't even tell you how many times I had cried with my wife and said, if something happens to one of my parents, I'm closer to my dad than my mom for sure. Um but if something happens to either one of them and we're at this spot where we don't even really speak, I I honestly don't know, I don't know how I'll how I'll be. She had never met my parents at that point. It's 2021. We've been together for more than 10 years at that point, and I thought, I I need to make some decisions, I need to make some changes. So I I did. I made the conscious decision that I would look forward instead of back. And and and ultimately that's what you do when you get divorced, right? When you leave a relationship, you you make the decision to look forward and not back, because the more time you spend looking back, the more time you worry about whether you made the right decision, you're afraid of how people are going to receive you, all of it, right? So I had to look forward and decide if I want a relationship with my parents, and they're a package deal, you don't get one without the other. If I want a relationship with my parents, then I have to decide to just move forward. And my mom's still around, and and and she's still as passive aggressive as ever, so I still limit contact to a certain extent. But but you know, that that family connection. That had been a huge part of my life up to that point when I was doing the right thing. Um it had been it had been broken for a while, and and uh I had to decide whether I wanted it back. I'm still not super connected with my siblings. Um I see them. I'm cordial. We're on a family chat page together, but whatever. Um we don't have a lot in common, to be honest. Yeah. That's a big part of it.

SPEAKER_01:

That's so tough, but I think that's so good. I think the biggest thing, you know, that I hope people well, one of the biggest things I hope people can take away from this is that you made that conscious decision to look forward instead of backwards. Because, you know, we all sit in those, you know, and we have those, I call them pity party days where you're just like, oh my gosh, like, ugh, woe is me. I can't believe this happened. Like, you know, if only I would have made a different decision, or if maybe I would have stayed, or, you know, all the things that we play out in our head, even though what you did was being, you know, you're authentic, and that's what the world needs is more authentic people. But, you know, like you made that conscious decision. And then as you were processing it, you decided, you know what? Like, I'm gonna stop looking in the back. I'm gonna just focus on, you know, the the present and the future, and that's it. Um, but I think the other thing is that I love that you were able to create that relationship, you know, with your family. Like, yes, it's a different dynamic with your parents, you know, and and I love that you've placed boundaries um, you know, within like how much time you can spend with them. I think that is absolutely huge. Um, but I think it's also okay to not be close with your family. Like just because they birthed you, just because you're, you know, blood related doesn't mean you owe them anything. Yes, you tell them your truth. Yes, they have every right to react however they want. That's fine. It's like Danielle Robbins, let them, you know, like let them react they want and then let me be me. And you know, and that's it. So I think the other big thing, you know, just for anyone listening is that, you know, yes, you were, you know, you made this choice and you've set these boundaries and it worked for you, but not every relationship with a family is going to work out that way, and that's okay. That is okay. You get to create your own family. So find the people that do support you unconditionally, that do love you unconditionally, that do understand you, and that's your family. They it doesn't have to be blood, you know, for exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I fully agree. I fully agree. It's uh, and I mean, and and I think there's a lot of people who wonder whether or not my disconnect from my family is because I'm queer. And I'm like, no, they're they seem to be fine with it. And apparently, speaking retrospectively, they're like, oh, we never would have had a problem with it. I'm like, really? That's not the impression I was given as I was growing up, anyway. But it's no, it's more about just yeah, when you when you leave a marriage and you say that when you admit that it was unsafe, people feel very uncomfortable with the fact that they knew you as a couple and they supported you as a couple, and that it wasn't a safe space. And okay, that's but but that's not a me problem.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah, it's not. That's not a me, like we can't. I mean, even coming from a you know, like a recovering people pleaser and control freak, which is me. Um, you know, I've learned that like you can't, you can't make everybody happy, you can't control how everybody else is going to act. So, you know, just like I just wish that we could all just be authentic and you know, and if people like us, great. If they don't, whatever. Like, I'm not everybody's cup of tea. Not everyone wants to listen to my, you know, a podcast. Not everyone wants to work with me as a realtor. That's okay. Like, yeah, you know, there's enough people out there to help everyone. So find what works for you and you know, just be authentic. I think that's like the biggest, biggest thing we can do is find your, you know, find your truth and just live it.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's it. And and that's the gift that we can give our kids, right? I mean, they really deserve to see us living authentically so that they know that they can do that too, that they don't have to set a bar for themselves that feels like it is being held up by someone else. The bar that they set is is set by them for them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, totally agree. Um, I always I always find it uh interesting. Did anybody ever like give you, like when you first announced that you were like getting a divorce or whatever, did anyone ever give you any advice that you were just like, who thought that was a good idea to say? Like because I feel like some people are so like well-meaning. And so I always try and ask, like, you know, what are some things that you that someone told you that you're just like, what? Uh, because you know, I want others that are listening to understand that people are gonna try and tell you things that are like that they mean well, but like they don't take everything to heart that people say to you, or not all advice is good advice. Or if someone's listening to this and they maybe know someone that's going through a divorce, like, don't say these things.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. I I think one of the biggest things was people telling me that I should disregard what my children said that they needed and wanted and do what I wanted for my children. And bec and and I will reiterate, because my children were completely safe with my ex, it made it easy for me to disregard those comments and say, no, in honoring me and respecting me, I learn that I have to honor them and respect them. So if what they're telling me is that they need to be closer to their friends where they can ride their bikes to their friends' houses and have a safe space that they can go that isn't either parents' house, because sometimes they need time, not with either one of us, to feel like they have a space to process. Um, I so I think for me that was the biggest one was was was I couldn't believe that people were saying, well, if you want the boys with you, then why don't you just make sure that they're with you? And and that that wasn't the best choice for them. And and honestly, I don't know that we'd have a good relationship now. If I forced them to be somewhere they didn't want to be, yeah, I don't I think that they would still resent me for it.

SPEAKER_01:

I absolutely love that that's the decision you made because I agree, you know, I think there are, you know, there's so many like well-meaning people that say stuff like that, and you're like, okay, I get it. Yes, I would love to just like control all the narrative and force my kids to live with me and and force everybody to be totally fine with me coming out and be totally fine with my divorce. Cool, but that's not actually reality. And and I love that you took your kids' concerns, you know, like to heart and you took their feelings and everything into consideration because I do I think it's the equivalent to forcing a child to go to church every Sunday and forcing them to, you know, believe in that faith. Like it all that does is just like force them to not want to have any relationship with faith later on. So if you force them, they likely wouldn't, you know, or that you would have a forced relationship where it's like, well, mom's gonna make us come visit, so we may as well go, you know, like it just and it continues that cycle of you know, just like the good girl mentality or the good boy mentality, like, and that's a cycle that needs to be broken. The authentic authenticity needs to be the new cycle, and you were allowing them to be authentic, you allowed them to share their feelings, which again gave them the safe space to know, okay, yeah, like this, you know, this is weird, and I'm going through all these hormonal changes and all that stuff, and it's so hard to process. But like, guess what? Mom loves us because she listened and she, you know, allowed us to be our authentic selves.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I that's all I could do, really, because I just felt like the the right thing to do. I think part of that came too, though, from feeling like I wasn't given the opportunity or permission to. I mean, if you grow up and and you feel like you have to live a closeted life, then that's telling you that you don't you're not going to be respected for who you are. So I think that's a big part of what sort of formulated that decision making in my head was I I didn't get it. So you do need to have it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I totally agree. I think um it's interesting because the way I was raised too, um, I, you know, kind of go back to that and how I raise, you know, my children and the rules that I make and stuff like that. And, you know, I'm like, okay, well, my parents were so over controlling and so, you know, like strict that I then was, you know, out of control when I went to college. And so, you know, I try to, you know, with my with my kids, I try to, you know, let them know, like, hey, it's okay to make these decisions, it's okay to make these mistakes, like, you know, I'm still here, still love you, you know, like instead of being like, no, you have to do this, and you know, this is how you're gonna live. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And and lots of times I can't speak to your audience, but my guess is that a lot of people who are listening and learning from your podcasts, it they're people who are still in the earlier phases of this. Here I am more than a decade and a half past the leaving. My children are well into their 20s. My eldest is almost 28. Um, I can tell you with confidence that it does get easier and they will be okay. It's really hard in the beginning, though. And there will be nights, I tell you. I tell you, I sat in the big chair in my living room and I wailed when I was by myself. I missed them with every ounce of my being. I was scared for what the future looked like. I didn't know if the money I was making was going to be enough to keep things moving forward. I didn't know if I was gonna have to change direction with my profession. All of it, all of it. And I I I cried so loudly that I later learned that I had neighbors who could hear me. And and and and you don't even think about that at the time. And that part is truthfully it's irrelevant, but um, but it it just was that raw and that frightening and that emotional. So just know you will have those feelings.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I uh yeah, I'm over a decade out from mine as well. And um, but yeah, I mean, I literally for six months didn't tell anyone I was going through a divorce. I would put my, you know, like I would go through my day and I would just do all the things and I'd put my daughter to sleep at night, and then I would just lay on my, you know, bathroom floor and like sob in the fetal position for hours and hours and hours, you know, like every night. And it, you know, was at least, I would say it was almost a year of that. And, you know, and thanks to, you know, therapy and processing and finally talking about it, that I realized, oh, okay. So it's not like I was ashamed, you know, I was just so ashamed that I was going through a divorce. And, you know, but once I started talking about it, I realized that was actually what I needed. Like that was the therapy that I needed. So, you know, yeah, I agree. Anyone that's listening that's going through this process, just know that there are gonna be some days that you are just gonna need to cry. And that's okay. Throw yourself the biggest fucking pity party you can, and just so that then the next day you're gonna be able to like get up and move on. And it's a roller coaster. So it is some days, like your highs are gonna be so high, and then your lows are gonna be so low, but eventually, like your highs get higher, your lows don't get as low, and it it becomes, you know, it becomes easier, more bearable, and you're able to process and realize that you know, like you made the decision, it's the right decision and life will get better.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There is light at the end of that very long tunnel.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes, I know. I love that you brought that up because I do think that, you know, somebody that's listening to this is like, oh wow, that's so great for you that you're you know on the other side and you're like so happy, but like I'm sitting here like sobbing at materials, you know, and it's like, no, we we've all been there. I promise you. Like it's it's a process.

SPEAKER_02:

Even when you leave for the all the right reasons, even when you uh leave an abuser like I did, it it's still there were still times when I wondered, should I have gone?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, and I always hate that. Um I always hate whenever women feel, or I shouldn't say women, when other people judge women for staying for as long as they did. Like, well, if you were being abused, why didn't you just leave? And it's like, okay, I don't think you understand that like when you're being abused, it takes pieces of you away and it just breaks you down and breaks you down and breaks you down to a point that you can't leave. You cannot see past this moment right in front of you. You cannot see a future where you would be safe and okay. So you just you know stay in that frozen like part, you know. So it always uh it kills me whenever someone's like, Well, if you're being abused, why didn't you just leave? Like, why'd you stay so long? And it's like you don't understand. There is a whole mental process behind it. It's not just as simple as like, oh, okay, I'm leaving, you know, like there's there's a whole thing. And it's true. So, you know, I I would I love that you're so open about talking about it because I think again, it's one of those taboo things that people don't want to talk about the abuse. They don't want to talk about, you know, like, oh, I was married to this person and they were doing this to me. And, you know, because you do get those well-meaning people that are like, Well, why didn't you just leave? Like, I don't understand. Like, it's not that cut and dry.

SPEAKER_02:

So I wish that it was, but it's not. You're right. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, Sam, thank you so much for coming on here, sharing your story, being so brave and authentic. I I'm so proud of you, and I'm so proud that you are living your true authentic life. And I'm just so grateful I met you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Have a great afternoon. Thank you, you too. Thanks so much for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on Thrive and Decide.